Author Topic: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL  (Read 210319 times)

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #180 on: May 18, 2016, 06:13:26 PM »
I find it interesting that [people can be so attached to a character who has no art, no dialog, and has never even been mentioned or referred to in the story. She exists only as a name datamined from a decade old game, that its own creator completely forgot about. Yet she still has fans hoping for an appearance.

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #181 on: May 19, 2016, 03:58:29 AM »
One can say its the mystery behind the character that keeps her support up, I must say her shot types seemed interesting at least
but I personally don't care if she gets a second chance or not.
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Helepolis

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2016, 05:08:24 AM »
Did she ever got a first chance? How can a character be forgotten if she never has been officially introduced. Mima would be a more valid character fitting under those categories.

Time to visit the playstation store.

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #183 on: May 20, 2016, 12:43:04 PM »
Did she ever got a first chance? How can a character be forgotten if she never has been officially introduced. Mima would be a more valid character fitting under those categories.


Her first chance was EoSD, just because she didn't make it in doesn't mean she never had that chance in the first place.
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Drake

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #184 on: May 20, 2016, 01:27:09 PM »
That already implies there was something of hers to put in to begin with. It isn't like he made a whole character but left her out; her idea was pretty much scrapped at the planning stages as all evidence points to.

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Helepolis

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2016, 02:22:51 PM »
Like Drake said, those are assumptions and implications. Which are in my opinion invalid. She never got implemented and therefore it is hard to say or claim that there is a mystery around her as a character or has some sort of 'lost/forgotten' impact.

The real mystery characters until this day are Koakuma and Daiyousei. They have much more actual presence in the games, yet no actual bio like PMiSS or SoPM

« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 04:37:09 PM by Helepolis »

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2016, 07:23:32 PM »
I'm not sure Dai and Koakuma were ever intended to be characters, no more than the random fairies and ghosts and grimoires you shoot in the stages are characters. They have healthbars and serve as midbosses, but ultimately they were just mooks thrown in for stage progression. Later stage midbosses like Lily and Tewi were given much more focus (relatively), perhaps as a response to ZUN noticing how his previous midbosses were treated by the fans.

In regards to Satsuki Rin though, I think it's worth remembering that there are probably hundreds of discarded character ideas that ZUN never used, simply because they got tossed in the wastebasket long before they got anywhere. It's incredibly unlikely that ZUN goes with his very first idea for each character, so most likely there's at least 2-3 extremely rough ideas for each boss that he never followed through on. He's even mentioned these sometimes in interviews, like how Byakuren was originally conceived as being her more famous younger brother, and I think he also mentioned that he was considering an actual space alien to go with the Space Invaders theme? Multiply that by every single character in the series, and that's a rough estimate of how many "Satsuki Rins" have technically existed in ZUN's mind, however briefly, but we've never even seen the slightest trace of because there are no records. Apparently Rin got slightly further if she's mentioned in the code, but that's not necessarily significant. It's no surprise ZUN's forgot about her, since from his perspective she was just one of hundreds of bad ideas he never used.

Reu

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #187 on: May 20, 2016, 09:36:18 PM »
The fact that she's even in the data in the first place implies there WAS something, ZUN already said the reason why she was left out, and that was due to time constraints.
That might not necessarily mean she was a bad idea or anything of the sort.

Again, her not being fully implemented doesn't make her having her first chance not be EoSD.

The mystery around her as a character isn't even hard to claim, shes a person who apparently had flower and wind based attacks based on her shot-types.
And yes, there are likely plenty of scrapped characters, but none of them are in the code like Rin, which gives people to latch on.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:39:30 PM by Reu »
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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #188 on: May 20, 2016, 10:13:01 PM »
And yes, there are likely plenty of scrapped characters, but none of them are in the code like Rin, which gives people to latch on.

That was my whole point, actually. She seems more real to you because you have something to latch on to, but that's just an illusion. She was never any more real than any of ZUN's discarded ideas, because characters in fiction don't become "real" until there's a finished product.

Even names can and will be changed up to the very last minute (unless there's voice acting, which can complicate things). Sumireko was known as Hanako merely months/weeks before the release of ULiL, when people datamined the demo. Which itself may have been simply a placeholder name, since "hana" means flower and "sumire" is a flower: ZUN hadn't decide which flower she'd be named after yet.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 10:15:46 PM by Clarste »

Reu

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #189 on: May 20, 2016, 10:16:25 PM »
you

Let's keep this in mind that I don't care about this character at all, I'm merely giving insight to the other side.
Also that's arguable in itself, concepts can be considered "real", I don't see where you're going with this.

EDIT: The topic of Sumireko being known as Hanako can be many things, in some cases it could be to hide her name or even give hints.
I don't recall ZUN ever stating the case for that.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 10:18:36 PM by Reu »
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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #190 on: May 20, 2016, 10:23:12 PM »
Where I'm going is just that I think people (not you, I guess, sorry), have latched onto this one non-character for mostly arbitrary reasons, and given her a life of her own that she never actually had in the first place. As if Gensokyo is a real place and ZUN simply failed to give her a chance, as opposed to the truth that every single thing in fiction is a formless mass of chaos that can change completely on a whim, until the writer is finished editing their work and publishes. Everything can and will be subject to change at all times, and the fact that ZUN was at some point considering a third playable character and even gave her some basic shot type framework does not actually mean that that character has ever existed in any form, concrete or abstract. No more than the idea of a space alien boss that ZUN briefly toyed with for UFO.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 10:25:24 PM by Clarste »

Reu

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #191 on: May 20, 2016, 10:33:09 PM »
Where I'm going is just that I think people (not you, I guess, sorry), have latched onto this one non-character for mostly arbitrary reasons, and given her a life of her own that she never actually had in the first place. As if Gensokyo is a real place and ZUN simply failed to give her a chance, as opposed to the truth that every single thing in fiction is a formless mass of chaos that can change completely on a whim, until the writer is finished editing their work and publishes. Everything can and will be subject to change at all times, and the fact that ZUN was at some point considering a third playable character and even gave her some basic shot type framework does not actually mean that that character has ever existed in any form, concrete or abstract. No more than the idea of a space alien boss that ZUN briefly toyed with for UFO.
I think I see what you're trying to say now, but I find it hard to agree with the idea that the character did not exist in any form, code is still code. I know it's left over code, but it's still there.
She has no character, yes and she has no "life" either but what her name is even if its a temporary name, and the framework of what she can "do" still exists, and taking from what you said, exists in published work in itself.
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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #192 on: May 20, 2016, 10:40:46 PM »
Well, we can argue about the nature of published code, but I would say that anything that isn't expressed in the game itself wasn't mean to be seen. It's like a line of ink on a page that's been covered in white-out: you can theoretically read it by looking through the back of the page or something, but it was clearly not meant to be part of the final work.

Reu

  • Ambitious Youkai
Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #193 on: May 20, 2016, 10:49:10 PM »
Well, we can argue about the nature of published code, but I would say that anything that isn't expressed in the game itself wasn't mean to be seen. It's like a line of ink on a page that's been covered in white-out: you can theoretically read it by looking through the back of the page or something, but it was clearly not meant to be part of the final work.
Funny that you mention that, I do know of a book that keep white-out lines just for the purpose of showing the writer's mindset.
But yes, I do get what you're saying, and I personally rather not argue the topic of published code since it can go either way, there some things that's meant to be yet couldn't and then there's the things they couldn't be bothered to remove or finish, cut content is a funny thing to me.
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Marron

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #194 on: May 21, 2016, 06:36:15 PM »
As for me, I would be interested if Seija became a playable character for that game. It sure would be fun if she could use some of the items she had in Amanojaku.

PK

  • Border of Whatever
Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #195 on: May 21, 2016, 08:09:04 PM »
As for me, I would be interested if Seija became a playable character for that game. It sure would be fun if she could use some of the items she had in Amanojaku.
Unless i misunderstood something, Seija lost her items (her "allies") at the end of ISC. I'd like to see her here screwing game controls again, though.

As for the final boss for Reisen, maybe this time is Marisa since Reimu is usually the final boss for the "normal" final boss. Since it is still ULiL, Reisen's storyline might be about Eirin/Kaguya/Sagume sending her to take Sagume's occult ball away from humans and youkai (mostly youkai :V), since it could be considered a lunarian weapon and uses a lunarian god's power, and i suppose ZUN might want to end this urban legend stuff sooner or later anyway.

Plubio

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #196 on: May 21, 2016, 10:13:03 PM »
Which itself may have been simply a placeholder name, since "hana" means flower and "sumire" is a flower: ZUN hadn't decide which flower she'd be named after yet.

Actually I'd say it just comes from 'Hanako-san' urban legend to fit the game, but as you pointed it was just a placeholder.
About Rin Satsuki... I'll agree that is just a scrapped character.

Like the tons of hairstyles Murasa used to have.
Speaking of which, it would be cool if someday ZUN decides to show some scrapped ideas/characters he had for games.

But that's another story. This isn't a thread for this anyway lol.

--

I really hope Reisen's not the only new character.
She has potential and stuff, but it would be a waste. Anyway, as someone ?I think? pointed out, they never said PS4 ULiL was an expansion, just a port, so...

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #197 on: May 22, 2016, 08:06:48 PM »
As for the final boss for Reisen, maybe this time is Marisa since Reimu is usually the final boss for the "normal" final boss. Since it is still ULiL, Reisen's storyline might be about Eirin/Kaguya/Sagume sending her to take Sagume's occult ball away from humans and youkai (mostly youkai :V), since it could be considered a lunarian weapon and uses a lunarian god's power, and i suppose ZUN might want to end this urban legend stuff sooner or later anyway.

Yeah, it's been a recurring thing in the comics that the urban legend incident still isn't over.

Marron

  • Ordinary crow
Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #198 on: May 23, 2016, 10:08:08 AM »
Unless i misunderstood something, Seija lost her items (her "allies") at the end of ISC. I'd like to see her here screwing game controls again, though.
You're probably right, I don't remember though.

Well, I guess that knowing she's a 5th boss in a danmaku game, she probably gets more chance to be a playable character. That's not entirely true 'cause Orin and Shou haven't been playable. We thought it was because they were youkai, then came Reisen . . . then again, Reisen is not a youkai but a moon rabit.
In Seija's case, I think there is more chance because she was the main character of ISC. There is another reason, more personal: I find it fishy that the story of Seija would finish in ISC. I can't accept something like "Seija will stop doing mischievous things", I can't believe it at all, I'm sure Seija will sometime play the role she did in DDC, but of less importance. So yeah, I could totally see a story in ULIL where she would want to mess with characters using her urban legend.

Anyway that would be great. There's not that much characters who're true vilains since a certain spirit from the PC-98 era. There are some dark characters but they don't have this "evil" aura Seija does.

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #199 on: May 23, 2016, 01:29:04 PM »
Seija went into hiding after ISC because, you know, all of Gensokyo is out to get her. While I'd like to see more of her, I think that's a pretty fitting ending to her story...? It's the same as with Junko- she's still an evil person planning to do evil things, but she's laying low for a while.

Though I can still totally see Seija being playable again in the future. Just not for those reasons.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
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Marron

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #200 on: May 23, 2016, 02:21:37 PM »
I think Seija will not stop here. Junko had her own reasons to do what she did, and surely wants revenge, but in Seija's case, it's even more deep. It's her own nature to be against people, to be against what they stand or think. If they want her to hide, she'll not hide indefinitely, one day or another, she will get out of her hideout and do wicked things again.

I personnally categorise Junko in the same case as Mima, though for not the same reason. In Mima's case it's because she's a 98 character and Zun doesn't want to bring her back so stop screwing Gensokyo for god's sake, it's because most of the evil in her has fadded so she just annoys Reimu now and then.
But in Seija's case, it's different. It's fundamentally Seija's nature to always stand against people, she's an amanojaku after all. For her to stop bother gensokyo and be quiet for a very long time ? I don't buy it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 02:23:10 PM by HououinKyouma »

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #201 on: May 23, 2016, 03:11:06 PM »
Well.... 2 things. Junko's entire existence is getting revenge on Chang'e. That's what she is. Her vengeance has been purified to the point thay she's a being made purely of it. Saying it's in Seija's nature to be contrary but not in Junko's nature to be vengeful, I think that's kind of wrong?

But that's neither here nor there. My point is, if Gensokyo were a real place, Seija would definitely do evil stuff again at some point. But youkai live for a very long time. Seija's bad, but she's not stupid. She could stay in hiding for several years until the resentment towards her dies down and she can pull off another master plan. And since youkai live for so long, it's not unreasonable to think she'd wait several years or even decades before trying again.

...That would be the in universe explanation, at least. In reality, it's just as simple as whether or not ZUN wants to introduce her or not. Personally I don't think ZUN is done with the DDC cast (because of Shinny's inclusion in ULiL and a lack of side material related to DDC compared to UFO or TD) so Seija or Shinny could show up again. I just don't agree with your reasoning behind "this is why Seija's going to show up again".
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 03:27:41 PM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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UTW

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #202 on: May 23, 2016, 07:16:01 PM »
As for the final boss for Reisen, maybe this time is Marisa since Reimu is usually the final boss for the "normal" final boss. Since it is still ULiL, Reisen's storyline might be about Eirin/Kaguya/Sagume sending her to take Sagume's occult ball away from humans and youkai (mostly youkai :V), since it could be considered a lunarian weapon and uses a lunarian god's power, and i suppose ZUN might want to end this urban legend stuff sooner or later anyway.

Yeah, it's been a recurring thing in the comics that the urban legend incident still isn't over.

At this juncture I think they're less intended to be an incident needing to be resolved, than now simply a part of Gensokyo. Just a different category of creatures and things for ZUN to pull from now. If Yukari didn't see fit to take the Occult Ball and end this, I doubt anyone will. Even if Eientei took the ball so that no one else could, I doubt anything would change.

Marron

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #203 on: May 24, 2016, 06:18:16 PM »
I just don't agree with your reasoning behind "this is why Seija's going to show up again".
And there's no problem with that. I just exposed my point of view here, and honnestly could elaborate more and debate more about it, but that was not my intention since the beggining. I'm just explaining who I would see as a playable character and why. If you don't agree with it, that's okay, I'm not here to convince anyone here anyway, I just wanted to express the fundemental reasons of my opinion.

cuc

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #204 on: May 31, 2016, 03:03:17 PM »
Some vague information from today's (May 31) Nikenme Radio livestream:

Reisen's theme will be arranged by Beat Mario (apparently Beat Mario actually announced this in his own stream last week?).

(BTW, Beat Mario and Amane recently got married. I thought they were already married for years!)

Uni Akiyama and ZUN said what they are doing for the PS4 version is far more than simply adding one character or one scenario. It requires them to add lots of new music.

ZUN has "cramped everything he wanted to do" into Reisen's scenario. He has taken great effort to write it.

The result "should not be an ordinary game. It may offend everyone. It may even offend Sony."

Reisen's scenario contains scenes impossible to do in their current engine, requiring additional programming work.

There is no way Reisen can stay the same after going through what happened in LoLK.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 04:49:40 PM by cuc »
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PK

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #205 on: May 31, 2016, 05:47:01 PM »

ZUN has "cramped everything he wanted to do" into Reisen's scenario. He has taken great effort to write it.

The result "should not be an ordinary game. It may offend everyone. It may even offend Sony."

Reisen's scenario contains scenes impossible to do in their current engine, requiring additional programming work.

There is no way Reisen can stay the same after going through what happened in LoLK.
So, are we expecting something really weird?
I wonder how would he even manage to offend EVERYONE and even Sony at the same time with a game.
Someone actually dies a horrible death (killed by Reisen that went mad after LoLK!)  with blood splattered everywhere?
Jokes on people affectd by mental illness tied to Reisen's powers?

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #206 on: May 31, 2016, 06:38:04 PM »
o_o What in the world...?
Maybe this is just dramatic stuff intended to peak interest. It'd certainly be fitting, given ULiL's style.
But still, to say something like that... Z-ZUN isn't going to kill off someone, is he?!?

Well, now I'm excited. Sorry if this has already been answered, but do we have an estimated date of release?
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Critz

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #207 on: May 31, 2016, 08:49:00 PM »
I sure hope that it's just more advertising blurb. I really don't wanna see the character of Reisen destroyed and be forced to call headcanon discontinuity on ULiL.  :ohdear:

Prime32

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Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #208 on: May 31, 2016, 09:18:58 PM »
Clearly it will involve a series of flashbacks where Reisen is revealed to have been a Lunarian double agent all along, after which she throws Tewi out of a plane.

Re: ZUN announces PS4 version of Touhou 14.5 ULiL
« Reply #209 on: May 31, 2016, 09:46:24 PM »
Mayhaps he's just being ironic and it will all be a Catfish-esque scenario akin to 12.3?