Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Letty Whiterock on November 17, 2010, 09:04:59 PM

Title: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 17, 2010, 09:04:59 PM
Do you think there could be a potential future in offering upcoming Touhou releases via digital download a la sites like DLsite? A number of games are offered through such services, and while it's not like Paletweb and the like are difficult services to use, download services for games are all the rage now (Steam, XBLA, PSN, etc.) and can help provide content to people who aren't exactly trusting of purchasing physical copies online. This isn't to say that ZUN will offer Touhou games in this manner (he probably won't), but do you think that doing so would help spread awareness and increase potential sales to the Touhou fans at large? Maybe decrease piracy of Touhou games just a little bit? Discussion!
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 17, 2010, 09:19:11 PM
Oh god I hope so. for everything, I hope that it will happen, that Zun will support it, that it will increase awareness, decrease piracy. All of it.
When Reccetear came out on Steam, that's exactly why I purchased it right away even though I never even played,seen,heard of the game yet. Granted, I'm also a big supporter for ALL doujin games, not just Touhou, so it wasn't for Touhou only, but pretty much everything that applies for Doujin games applies for Touhou.

That and I'm not against more fans of the series, more fans = more fanwork which = more great arrangement bands/fangames, etc. I don't mind sifting thru the bad/meh work to get the gems.

edit: Sorry got carried away, as for what I THINK...I honestly don't know if it will happen or not, but if it did, I do think it would increase awareness and decrease piracy as well.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Savory on November 17, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Sounds like a good idea. I mean the more you prohibit something, the more people would want to break the rules. Being unfortunate that the series is only sold in Japan, at least allowing a widespread download system will, as you say,  increase awareness of the series and bring piracy to a screeching halt (maybe).
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Iryan on November 17, 2010, 09:21:47 PM
I am going to say what I already said some time ago:

Touhou XX on Steam would be great in every possible way, but just as unlikely. Still


Achievement Unlocked:
"Where Is Your God Now?"
Time out 'Virtue of Windgod' without dieing or using a bomb.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Gpop on November 17, 2010, 09:22:34 PM
At first when I read the title and the first few sentences I thought you lost your mind and actually suggested piracy.

/me sighs out of relief

Anyways, tbh looking at how ZUN the chances of this are VERY low atm, especially since he seems to focus his releases on events such as Comiket and Reitaisai. And I don't think he would trust sites for people to download from for various reasons, especially if it's not gonna be put on a program like Steam and such.

Of course, there might be chances that people might take this action into their own hands and try it on their own and give most of the money directly to ZUN but it's so unlikely that he'll approve of that as well...

Didn't he also mention something about the fact that he didn't want it to get too popular that it'll get out of hand for him to control the doujin community on his series?
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: theshirn on November 17, 2010, 09:27:59 PM
banned
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on November 17, 2010, 09:38:35 PM
Didn't he also mention something about the fact that he didn't want it to get too popular that it'll get out of hand for him to control the doujin community on his series?

He did. And it failed hard   :D I wonder where he is in control now, if it comes to fandom and doujins...
Title: Downloading Touhou games
Post by: Tengukami on November 17, 2010, 09:40:17 PM
I think it would definitely decrease piracy. The whole reason why people pirate games, after cost, is ease of obtainment. People would still want their free games, but many more would probably get the games legally.

I also think it could, but not necessarily would, increase its popularity. And I'm OK with that. Touhou isn't a clubhouse. It's just a great series. The more who discover it, the better.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 17, 2010, 09:48:26 PM
stuff

Lol he thinks that ZUN actually cares about distribution in the west -3-
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Unassuming Squid on November 17, 2010, 09:55:35 PM
bring piracy to a screeching halt

As long as you have to pay for it, this is never going to happen.

I do think it would be a good idea, however. It would definitely produce more fans, as right now you either have to pirate it or find some way to get it from Japan.

At first when I read the title and the first few sentences I thought you lost your mind and actually suggested piracy.

Glad I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Furienify on November 17, 2010, 10:13:46 PM
Yeah I came in here going 'sweet, time to watch snowball challenge or epic ban'.

It's a neat idea, either way. Saves me from worrying about having to replace CDs that pets get to.
Title: Downloading Touhou games
Post by: Tengukami on November 17, 2010, 10:17:35 PM
Lol Ubiquital didn't actually read the OP.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 17, 2010, 10:30:51 PM
Lol Ubiquital didn't actually read the OP.

Ur right, so I shall change it to :

"Lol he thinks that ZUN  might possibly care about distribution in the west -3-"
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 17, 2010, 10:35:47 PM
Ur right, so I shall change it to :

"Lol he thinks that ZUN  might possibly care about distribution in the west -3-"

Great contribution to the discussion.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Janitor Morgan on November 17, 2010, 10:44:44 PM
Yeah I came in here going 'sweet, time to watch snowball challenge or epic ban'.

That'd be a bit ironic, given that Letty used to hand said Snowball Challenges out.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, it would probably decrease piracy by giving people a new avenue with which to legally obtain the games. Wouldn't completely stamp it out, though. Though, how would the games' sales perform relative to the other things available on Steam/etc.? Given Recettear, they'd at least be mildly popular, but they might be overshadowed by FPS games and such.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 17, 2010, 10:49:16 PM
Wasn't Letty the one that organized an e-mail to Zun requesting for such things as internet purchases or donations or something and never got a response?
In any case I don't think Letty thinks Zun does or doesn't or might care about sales in the west, it's just a theoretical scenario to discuss...
It seems like someone STILL hasn't read the op though, as made clear if you read
Quote
(He probably won't)

There is one possibility for when Zun may want to expand sales though if he currently is totally uninterested though, not a good one. If for some reason he decides to take a big break (or quit altogether) from making Touhou games but doesn't want his income to take a break too, he can probably earn some cash without making moar games for awhile doing that.

I'll continue to fantasize about Touhou being available on Steam and Zun happily making moar though (without UFO powerups that is, god I hate those).

Edit: If Touhou became available on Steam, I would assume its popularity would be quite high (also because of Reccetear's success), which makes me wonder. How much would it affect the STG genre's popularity to us cave-dwelling westerners?
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 17, 2010, 10:55:48 PM

There is one possibility for when Zun may want to expand sales though if he currently is totally uninterested though, not a good one. If for some reason he decides to take a big break (or quit altogether) from making Touhou games but doesn't want his income to take a break too, he can probably earn some cash without making moar games for awhile doing that.

I'll continue to fantasize about Touhou being available on Steam and Zun happily making moar though (without UFO powerups that is, god I hate those).

Edit: If Touhou became available on Steam, I would assume its popularity would be quite high (also because of Reccetear's success), which makes me wonder. How much would it affect the STG genre's popularity to us cave-dwelling westerners?

Well, assuming that ZUN might actually be interested in the western market, and somehow does end up putting the games on steam or some other download site, I doubt it would be hugely popular (beyond the existing fans.) Recettear had it's start in the western fanbase, but what I think will keep it's popularity high is the game's creativity, as opposed to Touhou, which are, gameplay-wise, more run-of-the-mill. Besides, it's not like there's going to be another wave of popularity for shmups in the west.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 17, 2010, 11:17:09 PM
Wasn't Letty the one that organized an e-mail to Zun requesting for such things as internet purchases or donations or something and never got a response?

Afraid not. However, I did contact [erka:es], the creators of Rosenkreuzstilette, about digital distribution. Lo and behold: http://eng.dlsite.com/work/=/product_id/RE051185
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Aisha on November 17, 2010, 11:38:28 PM
I could see it happening eventually, especially with the older games; however, like Platine Dispositif, ZUN might opt to do disc-based compilation releases instead. I'd love for him to re-release that PC-98 compilation, but I'm not sure if he actually has the rights to those games.

If Touhou does go digital, it most likely will end up on sites like DLsite, DiGiKet, Melonbooks, and Messe Sanoh. Except for Melonbooks and DLsite, these sites tend to be exclusionary, so us foreigners would still be stuck with having to buy the physical releases, and personally, that's what I would prefer to continue doing.

Steam or some other Western service would probably only enter the picture if ZUN were to license the Touhou games to a doujin localizer like Rockin' Android, and they in particular, lately seem to be interested in PSN more than anything.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Drake on November 17, 2010, 11:58:09 PM
Okay people you seriously need to get that this isn't talking about using a western service. If it was offered online, it would be aimed towards Japan, but westerners would be able to buy it. Stop all the "ZUN doesn't care about the west" nonsense, it has nothing to do with this. Offering it online would make it easier to obtain for westerners, but the main focus is "all Touhou fans".
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on November 18, 2010, 12:07:59 AM
cave-dwelling westerners
I thought "Cave-dwelling" and thought of Deathsmiles and other danmaku games that actually have been released Stateside ...
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 18, 2010, 12:08:33 AM
Okay people you seriously need to get that this isn't talking about using a western service. If it was offered online, it would be aimed towards Japan, but westerners would be able to buy it. Stop all the "ZUN doesn't care about the west" nonsense, it has nothing to do with this. Offering it online would make it easier to obtain for westerners, but the main focus is "all Touhou fans".

This guy. This guy right here.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Gpop on November 18, 2010, 12:23:21 AM
This is what happens when people just jump into the topic without reading the OP properly.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 18, 2010, 12:47:09 AM
This is what happens when people just jump into the topic without reading the OP properly.

Well, watcha gonna do? The OP was a paragraph long! It would have taken almost 45 seconds to read it, and another 45 to come up with a smart response! My time is valuable.    ;)
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 18, 2010, 01:06:31 AM
Well, watcha gonna do? The OP was a paragraph long! It would have taken almost 45 seconds to read it, and another 45 to come up with a smart response! My time is valuable.    ;)

learn and re-shift the focus back to the topic by saying something related to it like so:
So wur do I download EoSD? *hides* (I'm not serious don't hurt me).

Anyway, for the record, my own knowledge of purchasing games online is very limited. Even steam is something I've mostly ignored until the announcement of Reccetear (I like having a jewel case and manual and whatnot...Though manuals tend to suck for the last few years, so yeah.. kinda starting to become questionable). so when I mentioned it I wasn't specifically thinking for westerners so much as the only buy and download online game database I knew of >=)
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: N-Forza on November 18, 2010, 01:24:23 AM
It's not just ZUN, almost every doujin game circle really doesn't care too much about digital distribution. Even Carpe Fulgur had to prod EGS about it with Recettear (although there were other factors in play). Most of it is that most circles aren't out to necessarily hit it big, and they're just accustomed to the whole Comiket-style or doujin store sales method. They will gladly sell to you if you come to them, but they don't seem motivated to make that extra effort to be easily accessible, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 18, 2010, 01:26:02 AM
It's not just ZUN, almost every doujin game circle really doesn't care too much about digital distribution. Even Carpe Fulgur had to prod EGS about it with Recettear (although there were other factors in play). Most of it is that most circles aren't out to necessarily hit it big, and they're just accustomed to the whole Comiket-style or doujin store sales method. They will gladly sell to you if you come to them, but they don't seem motivated to make that extra effort to be easily accessible, for whatever reason.

It's the Zen of game-making.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Drake on November 18, 2010, 01:51:18 AM
Of doujin game making, rather.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Yukarin on November 18, 2010, 01:11:25 PM
I say it would be really nice if Touhou will be buyable in Steam. It's more accessible that way, and it'd be much easier for people to get it without going to Japan. (well, for me at least because I'm 15 and I don't have a passport yet.)

If, however, I wanted a memento or some sorts, (like that awesome jewel case) I'd buy it right from Japan.

I think it might help reel in some more fans, but meh. Do not like Touhou to become too popular.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: N-Forza on November 18, 2010, 01:20:56 PM
Do not like Touhou to become too popular.
Any particular reason why? It's not like it isn't already popular enough to have the annoying fanbase.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Tengukami on November 18, 2010, 01:26:34 PM
I also wonder about that. It's not as though Touhou is a religion that will be corrupted by too many followers, experiencing fractures and holy wars. It's just a game series with a fanbase. What are more fans going to do?
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Iryan on November 18, 2010, 01:35:00 PM
This question comes up too often.

Being interested (and invested) in something that most other people don't know about gives you a feeling of being "special", an actual positive feedback.

Of course, this is as irrational as it is subconscious and therefore not subject to one's own rationale to begin with.

Touhou being popular would not make touhou itself any worse, nor would it make the fanbase worse.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Tengukami on November 18, 2010, 01:37:08 PM
Touhou being popular would not make touhou itself any worse, nor would it make the fanbase worse.

Hell, if anything, it might improve the fanbase. More doujin artists and musicians competing with each other is a good thing, and would probably raise the overall quality of fan works. More "hurr durr" fans would just blend into the background noise.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on November 18, 2010, 02:30:30 PM
It's funny, I was thinking about pestering ZUN about this after I go to college.
On a typical service, let's say, the PSN, the X-Blah, and the WSC, how much would this cost anyway?
How would fans get the extra crap that's attached to the disc including the cover, manual (Is there a manual?) and the disc itself?
Say it does get popular.
Wouldn't that in theory just produce more fans that would pirate the games anyway?
How well would they score with review sites?
Are annoying fans going to keep ZUN from making TH13?

/wants to see DS on WiiWare

Maybe, you think, that the series is probably better off not being marketed blindly to a mass of people who more than likely can't stand watching pretty death hail from above? Or, aren't interested? I've met plenty of people who just don't like the games.

[/spiel]
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 18, 2010, 05:17:05 PM
Hell, if anything, it might improve the fanbase. More doujin artists and musicians competing with each other is a good thing, and would probably raise the overall quality of fan works. More "hurr durr" fans would just blend into the background noise.
To be honest, we really need less Touhou-based doujin works. The market is flooded, and having 897326453245 remixes of Necrofantasia is exhausting. Don't get me wrong. I like the stuff, but there is just too much out there.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Tengukami on November 18, 2010, 05:33:55 PM
To be honest, we really need less Touhou-based doujin works. The market is flooded, and having 897326453245 remixes of Necrofantasia is exhausting. Don't get me wrong. I like the stuff, but there is just too much out there.

That's an interesting take, although one I don't understand. It might be exhausting having to sift through more and more doujin works, but at the same time, artistic competition tends to raise the overall quality. As one example: rock and roll. In the early days (late 40s early 50s), there were a handful of acts and they all sounded pretty much the same. As it got more popular, the style innovated tremendously. Granted, there's a pretty overwhelming number of rock acts out there, but "good" bands now are leaps and bounds ahead of "good" bands back in the so-called good ol' days. This is for the most part due to rock 'n' roll losing its underground status and becoming more socially acceptable.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Myschi on November 18, 2010, 06:14:48 PM
It's funny, I was thinking about pestering ZUN about this after I go to college.
On a typical service, let's say, the PSN, the X-Blah, and the WSC, how much would this cost anyway?
How would fans get the extra crap that's attached to the disc including the cover, manual (Is there a manual?) and the disc itself?
Say it does get popular.
Wouldn't that in theory just produce more fans that would pirate the games anyway?
How well would they score with review sites?
Are annoying fans going to keep ZUN from making TH13?

/wants to see DS on WiiWare

Maybe, you think, that the series is probably better off not being marketed blindly to a mass of people who more than likely can't stand watching pretty death hail from above? Or, aren't interested? I've met plenty of people who just don't like the games.

[/spiel]

Why after college, if you don't mind me asking?

Also, replying to the bits in order for simplicity...

Cost: That's... that's a good question. The physical copies are, what, like... 20 bucks (outside of shipping etc)? I could see (roughly) 10-15 US dollars, depending on the service. I mean, all ZUN (or whoever) would have to do is upload it once, right? Maybe give a small chunk of the cash to whoever's doing the service.

Physical Stuff: I know that the manual's included (kinda) in WiiWare releases. I could see them including the extra stuff (profiles, lil' backstory, etc) like that, too. Unfortunately, the rest'd likely be unobtainable if it was through a download service, since that's kinda the tradeoff for convenience.

Piracy: I agree with the idea of 'people will pirate it less because it's more available'. If you can't find the game (and have been looking), you're going to pirate it even if you /do/ have the cash/will to buy it.

Reviews: ... I honestly have no clue on that one.

TH13: We can certainly hope not. :ohdear:
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Savory on November 18, 2010, 07:04:17 PM
As long as you have to pay for it, this is never going to happen.

That's why I added that "maybe".

Didn't he also mention something about the fact that he didn't want it to get too popular that it'll get out of hand for him to control the doujin community on his series?

I think it's too late for that.

Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Gpop on November 18, 2010, 07:20:00 PM
By popularity I mean he doesn't want to INTENTIONALLY make the games more popular. He just want to make the games the way he wants it to be that HE'LL be satisfied with. I'm sure he's not looking for profit from the series himself.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Savory on November 18, 2010, 07:29:36 PM
By popularity I mean he doesn't want to INTENTIONALLY make the games more popular. He just want to make the games the way he wants it to be that HE'LL be satisfied with. I'm sure he's not looking for profit from the series himself.

Even then, the fact remains that the series is popular.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 18, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
To be honest, we really need less Touhou-based doujin works. The market is flooded, and having 897326453245 remixes of Necrofantasia is exhausting. Don't get me wrong. I like the stuff, but there is just too much out there.

We need some sort of database that allows us to rate and review doujin music.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Gpop on November 18, 2010, 07:59:27 PM
Even then, the fact remains that the series is popular.

Actually I think the series is only popular to certain groups of people. Within most of the anime/online communities it is popular, heck even within the rhythm community as the arrangements are really good to work with. It's also very popular within the doujin communities, unsurprisingly. But it's popularity OUTSIDE of these groups isn't all that big. I think someone mentioned that Touhou over in Japan outside of these communities is about the same as here =/.

Although I may be very wrong, but I'm sure I heard it from someone in Japan. I think it was my friend who lives in Japan himself.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Tengukami on November 18, 2010, 08:37:03 PM
Although I may be very wrong, but I'm sure I heard it from someone in Japan. I think it was my friend who lives in Japan himself.

No, you are your friend are right. Us Touhou fans live in this echo chamber, where we think Touhou must be hugely popular in Japan, cherry-picking instances where it's referenced in other media. The fact is, yes, Reiteisai gets fine attendance, and Touhou has a large share of the doujin market, but overall, it's really not that popular.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 18, 2010, 08:58:59 PM
That's an interesting take, although one I don't understand. It might be exhausting having to sift through more and more doujin works, but at the same time, artistic competition tends to raise the overall quality. As one example: rock and roll. In the early days (late 40s early 50s), there were a handful of acts and they all sounded pretty much the same. As it got more popular, the style innovated tremendously. Granted, there's a pretty overwhelming number of rock acts out there, but "good" bands now are leaps and bounds ahead of "good" bands back in the so-called good ol' days. This is for the most part due to rock 'n' roll losing its underground status and becoming more socially acceptable.

It's hard to have artistic competition from a musical standpoint when most good works are overshadowed by the okay ones with flash videos to accompany them. That aside, it honestly seems that you can pretty much throw whatever you want out there, whether it's good or not, and people will eat it up if it has the Touhou name on it. A number of doujin circles, even the ones that are established and have evolved as artists, still tend to release mediocre works and will still, no doubt, profit from it, just because Touhou is involved somehow. There are dozens upon dozens of circles involved in the "competition", and I'm really not seeing an increase in the overall quality, especially not while groups like Innocent Key are allowed to exist, remain terrible, and still keep one of the bigger circle fanbases.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 18, 2010, 09:07:03 PM
It's hard to have artistic competition from a musical standpoint when most good works are overshadowed by the okay ones with flash videos to accompany them. That aside, it honestly seems that you can pretty much throw whatever you want out there, whether it's good or not, and people will eat it up if it has the Touhou name on it. A number of doujin circles, even the ones that are established and have evolved as artists, still tend to release mediocre works and will still, no doubt, profit from it, just because Touhou is involved somehow. There are dozens upon dozens of circles involved in the "competition", and I'm really not seeing an increase in the overall quality, especially not while groups like Innocent Key are allowed to exist, remain terrible, and still keep one of the bigger circle fanbases.

Quality is all relative,and I think being judgmental like that is counter to the "point" of doujin. I mean, it's supposed to allow those who normally wouldn't be able to share their talent an outlet, without fear of critical pressure. There are good groups; there are bad groups, we can agree on that, but to say they should not be allowed to exist is a bit far. The great thing about doujin is that there isn't any competition, so that bad groups can continue being bad and good groups can keep going without succumbing to the wishes of the fanbase.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 18, 2010, 09:07:18 PM
I too feel that the vast majority of the Touhou arrange circles are not worth my time listening to. But I don't really think an overall increase in the number of fans is going to make the amount of time involved hunting good circles out of the bad ones any longer. It's just as hard to get a prize from 100 draws as it is to get 1 of 10 from 1000 draws. That too is totally disregarding the whole competition = improvement thing.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Letty Whiterock on November 18, 2010, 09:17:19 PM
Indeed, but that's not entirely the point of this thread. As a continuation of the discussion:

If Touhou was to appear as a downloadable game on a console, what console would have the best and worst controls for each one? After all, some people are keyboard-only players, and some feel comfortable with different types of controllers. Also, TOUHOU FOR THE KINECT. DISCUSS.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 18, 2010, 09:19:56 PM
Indeed, but that's not entirely the point of this thread. As a continuation of the discussion:

If Touhou was to appear as a downloadable game on a console, what console would have the best and worst controls for each one? After all, some people are keyboard-only players, and some feel comfortable with different types of controllers. Also, TOUHOU FOR THE KINECT. DISCUSS.

I'd love to see touhou played with a wiimote.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Bitmap on November 18, 2010, 09:25:39 PM
ZUN never wanted the games to be introduced to the west. He wanted the games to completely local in Japan.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Savory on November 18, 2010, 09:43:53 PM
ZUN never wanted the games to be introduced to the west. He wanted the games to completely local in Japan.

Then the internet came along.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Drake on November 18, 2010, 10:14:40 PM
ZUN never wanted the games to be introduced to the west. He wanted the games to completely local in Japan.
Source it. He never expected the series to become popular in the first place; you can't say that he "didn't want" some group of people not to get the games. Touhou was never "introduced" to the West, so there's not even a reason for him to say that in the first place. It's just hogwash. Also, again, that's not what we're talking about.

Quote from: Ubiquitial
Quality is all relative,and I think being judgmental like that is counter to the "point" of doujin. I mean, it's supposed to allow those who normally wouldn't be able to share their talent an outlet, without fear of critical pressure.
Quote from: Ubiquitial
We need some sort of database that allows us to rate and review doujin music.
okay i believe you

I agree with what Letty's saying. There is no effective way for there ever to be influential artistic competition when the music becomes popular for reasons other than the music itself. Instead, the reason music gets popular is by its medium and accompaniments. The rock and roll analogy doesn't really work as well because music videos never really played a hugely important part in people liking the music, and this day in age current rock bands have yet again reverted back to everything sounding the same, yet most of the popularity still holds with the 60-80s bands that were popular back then as well. It just doesn't fit.

What you could instead use is the connection between pop songs and publicity. Justin Bieber, Hannah Montana, Jonas Brothers etc. These are the IoSYS and Innocent Key and Cool&Create of the pop world today (not necessarily in that order). How many people get into it from factors outside of the music? You could argue that Bieber can actually sing (because he can), his music is just bad and most of his fans are there because he's pretty and boomed on Youtube. Montana and Jonas both spawned from Disney so popularity is basically handed to them on a silver platter. There's little to no correlation between the quality of their music and their popularity. You go ahead and tell me that other bands can still "artistically compete" with the likes of these. There is no competition.

Doujin manga on the other hand doesn't have this huge distinction, so it isn't affected nearly as much as the doujin music community is; popularity is just idly based on material quality and word of mouth.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Tengukami on November 18, 2010, 10:26:33 PM
I think it's pretty bizarre to contend that "if it has Touhou slapped on it, people will love it". I can think of a million examples of that not being the case.

Overall, the quality of art increases with competition. That there is a lack of a strong arena for said competition might be the case, but doujin art doesn't exist in some bubble where the laws of dynamics just don't apply.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on November 18, 2010, 10:27:38 PM
Also, TOUHOU FOR THE KINECT. DISCUSS.

Swing your arms left to go left
Swing your arms right to go right
Jump to move up
Duck to move down
Pelvic thrust to bomb

PROBLEM SOLVED
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Romantique Tp on November 18, 2010, 10:30:09 PM
ZUN never wanted the games to be introduced to the west. He wanted the games to completely local in Japan.

Go figure why the menus are in English then.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on November 18, 2010, 10:32:54 PM
Go figure why the menus are in English then.

Isn't the basic English vocab used in game menus standard to like 70% of Japan anyway?
And isn't it easier that way?
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Myschi on November 18, 2010, 10:41:29 PM
Either that, or just a case of gratuitous English.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Romantique Tp on November 18, 2010, 10:56:30 PM
Isn't the basic English vocab used in game menus standard to like 70% of Japan anyway?
And isn't it easier that way?

ZUN has been overlaying english translations of the in-game menus over the japanese characters since PCB, which I doubt he does for stylistic reasons.

This is seriously the last thing one would do if they were trying to prevent something from being introduced to western audiences.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Iryan on November 18, 2010, 10:58:56 PM
ZUN has been overlaying english translations of the in-game menus over the japanese characters since PCB, which I doubt he does for stylistic reasons.

This is seriously the last thing one would do if they were trying to prevent something from being introduced to western audiences.
Still, from what I gather, the Japanese put English (and to a lesser extend German) everywhere without much of a reason beyond "english sounds/looks cool".
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Gpop on November 19, 2010, 12:00:56 AM
Swing your arms left to go left
Swing your arms right to go right
Jump to move up
Duck to move down
Pelvic thrust to bomb

PROBLEM SOLVED

Brilliant!
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Matsuri on November 19, 2010, 12:42:19 AM
Hmm. Even if they were legally downloadable in whatever way, I really doubt I'd get them in that way. I'm the kind of person who prefers hard copies to digital copies of stuff. Call me a collector, I suppose. :/

I think it's right to say, however, that making it more easy to obtain legitimately would do away with some piracy. Not entirely, but still, any reduction is better than none.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 19, 2010, 01:05:04 AM
okay i believe you

Hmm... read the rest of that post.

Also, bad choice of words. "Economic Pressures" make more sense than "Critical". Or something like that.

Edit: We had the same point, it seems.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Drake on November 19, 2010, 01:39:26 AM
i was just pointing out your bad choice of words, it was a joke
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 19, 2010, 01:46:56 AM
i was just pointing out your bad choice of words, it was a joke

Oh.  :derp:
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Unassuming Squid on November 19, 2010, 02:32:27 AM
It's hard to have artistic competition from a musical standpoint when most good works are overshadowed by the okay ones with flash videos to accompany them. That aside, it honestly seems that you can pretty much throw whatever you want out there, whether it's good or not, and people will eat it up if it has the Touhou name on it. A number of doujin circles, even the ones that are established and have evolved as artists, still tend to release mediocre works and will still, no doubt, profit from it, just because Touhou is involved somehow. There are dozens upon dozens of circles involved in the "competition", and I'm really not seeing an increase in the overall quality, especially not while groups like Innocent Key are allowed to exist, remain terrible, and still keep one of the bigger circle fanbases.

"Good" is a relative term. Maybe you think Innocent Key's songs are terrible, but I'm sure there are a large number of people who genuinely adore them.

Really, the whole discussion of "terrible Touhou arrange artists are only still allowed to exist is because they do stuff related to Touhou" is faulty in itself. There are plenty of Touhou arranges that the majority says are horrible, but does that stop those groups from making music? Generally not. Sure, good reception is a bonus, but I'm certain that most of these doujin artists are doing what they do because they want to do it. Innocent Key wants to make the songs they do. IOSYS wants to make the songs they do. Black Night Funeral and Demetori want to make the songs they do. They're taking a page from ZUN's book and just doing it because they enjoy it, horrible or not. And I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to make what they want to make, even if it genuinely sucks.

And if your only real problem is with fans of those groups making them popular and overshadowing the works of other artists, well, that's pretty much the same thing as hating Touhou because you hate the fans. A ridiculous reason, essentially.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Ubiquitial on November 19, 2010, 02:43:40 AM
"Good" is a relative term. Maybe you think Innocent Key's songs are terrible, but I'm sure there are a large number of people who genuinely adore them.

Really, the whole discussion of "terrible Touhou arrange artists are only still allowed to exist is because they do stuff related to Touhou" is faulty in itself. There are plenty of Touhou arranges that the majority says are horrible, but does that stop those groups from making music? Generally not. Sure, good reception is a bonus, but I'm certain that most of these doujin artists are doing what they do because they want to do it. Innocent Key wants to make the songs they do. IOSYS wants to make the songs they do. Black Night Funeral and Demetori want to make the songs they do. They're taking a page from ZUN's book and just doing it because they enjoy it, horrible or not. And I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to make what they want to make, even if it genuinely sucks.

And if your only real problem is with fans of those groups making them popular and overshadowing the works of other artists, well, that's pretty much the same thing as hating Touhou because you hate the fans. A ridiculous reason, essentially.

I wish I was as goddamn articulate as you are.
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Yukarin on November 19, 2010, 09:10:51 AM
Kinect paired with Touhou would be really bizarre, I would say. BUT THIS

Swing your arms left to go left
Swing your arms right to go right
Jump to move up
Duck to move down
Pelvic thrust to bomb

PROBLEM SOLVED

This would be awesome, however. So, jump incredibly fast to move up? What about precision jumping tapping?
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: Marokuu on November 19, 2010, 09:25:20 AM
Swing your arms left to go left
Swing your arms right to go right
Jump to move up
Duck to move down
Pelvic thrust to bomb

PROBLEM SOLVED
I'm not sure if pelvic thrusting would cause me to bomb more or... well I can't really bomb less than I already am. Now I'm imagining someone playing lunatic and looking like they're doing :getdown:
Title: Re: Downloading Touhou Games
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on November 19, 2010, 01:44:38 PM
Kinect paired with Touhou would be really bizarre, I would say. BUT THIS

This would be awesome, however. So, jump incredibly fast to move up? What about precision jumping tapping?


I was thinking jumps would vault you up some distance.
Precision movements can just use jerks of your elbows and hands I guess. ???

The deathbomb timer would have to be extended, though, so the game isn't impossible for non-rapists :V