Author Topic: Koakuma's Writer's Parlour ~ Have some tea and discuss fiction and writing here!  (Read 226548 times)

Nobu

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Fanon is the source of most event in Touhou we now know of, and it helped making Touhou popular so I can't deny it. Ditto. But my theory is that ZUN didn't do it on purpose. He created a game, then 'ok bye, let me forget everything so I can make another game.'

Random thing to add: Another thing that adds a lot of emotional depth but leaves a lot to interpretation are the character themes. If the character details and bios can be thought of as the "body", the music is the character's "soul".

I'm pretty sure he didn't do it on purpose too, and the nice thing is that he's kept a low-profile despite being in the perfect position to cash in on his fan following. But he seems to be content with how things are currently, thankfully.
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Alfred F. Jones

  • Estamos orgullosos del Batall?n Lincoln
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  • y de la lucha que hizo por Madrid
Random thing to add: Another thing that adds a lot of emotional depth but leaves a lot to interpretation are the character themes. If the character details and bios can be thought of as the "body", the music is the character's "soul".

Danmaku too, at least for me. My New Years' resolution was to beat all the extra stage bosses, since I've already beaten all of the games on normal mode at least (except tHRtP because lol no). Seeing a character's danmaku has a profound impact on me for some reason-- it lends itself as another source of canon in my eyes, in that I can see if a character likes to be tricky and use gimmicks, a character is spontaneous and uses random bullet spreads, and the beauty of their patterns to me indicates how much thought they put into fighting with elegance and style.

Speaking of-- Koishi, you're next. I've written White Rose too long without even getting past your first card! >:<

Nobu

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Danmaku too, at least for me. My New Years' resolution was to beat all the extra stage bosses, since I've already beaten all of the games on normal mode at least (except tHRtP because lol no). Seeing a character's danmaku has a profound impact on me for some reason-- it lends itself as another source of canon in my eyes, in that I can see if a character likes to be tricky and use gimmicks, a character is spontaneous and uses random bullet spreads, and the beauty of their patterns to me indicates how much thought they put into fighting with elegance and style.

Speaking of-- Koishi, you're next. I've written White Rose too long without even getting past your first card! >:<


Part of my continuation to Makai Butterfly is structured around Byakuren's spellcards >:D I already hinted to a backstory for Devil's Recitation
Spoiler:
now if I only have the guts to actually implement it >_>;
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:41:07 PM by Signum Rurouni »
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Hieda no Aya

  • I see you remodeled.
Hmm. As an openly admitted canonwhore who does occasionally try to fic (even though I don't think I've produced anything worth posting)...

I prefer trying to stay near canon because I really really like ZUN's work, and if at all possible -- even before the characterizations and the plot details -- I want to stay true to the mood and atmosphere and... worldview, I guess, or feel of his canon. Trying to imitate what I see in there while also expanding on it to explore things I'm curious about is rewarding. Of course, if characterization is subjective (and it is), "feel" is many times moreso, so whatever I end up with is likely to only work that way on me. But hey, I like it.

I am often dismissive of fanon, perhaps sometimes unfairly. Ruro's right that a lot of it is just backlash against people who get in through the memetic mutation and don't know any better, unfortunately. Since I like canon, fanon that replaces it doesn't interest me, and in many cases seems like it's more generic and less interesting (poor, poor Alice indeed). But canon certainly does have holes and unexplained mysteries that can be very fun and interesting to speculate on. I don't see individual speculation and extrapolation as the same thing as fanon. Fanon is something that's grown and taken on a life of it's own, but it's good to remember you can always try out one interpretation in one story without affecting anything else, even your own other fics, after all.

The Mommy Shinki thing is a weird example. Alice's place in Makai is something unexplained in canon, and it's rich with possibilities what with the retconning she's been through. The idea that Shinki adopted her as her daughter is one possibility, and it's a perfectly good one, with no more evidence for or against it than anything else. But it bothers me how much people seem to take it for granted, to the point where it doesn't even occur to them to consider other takes on it. Even if you don't take the opportunity to play around with speculation of your own, you ought to at least put some thought into whether the common interpretation is the one that works best for you.

I'm also of the belief that it's better to know what you can about canon whether you want to use it or not -- much like stylistic elements of writing, you have to be able to follow the rules before breaking them can be a deliberate choice.

Er, anyway, about personalities... deciding how much you want to bother with canon could be a good starting point by now, heh. It's true that most characters don't have much, but that really, really depends on the character; Marisa has a huge ton of dialogue and roles in everything and wrote a freaking book, Yamame not quite so much. The less there is, the more freedom/burden to make stuff up you have. I'd look at the dialogue and the background and think about why this person is in this place, what they're trying to do, what gets different responses from them, and what that might say about them. And what might possibly be going through their head...

Alfred F. Jones

  • Estamos orgullosos del Batall?n Lincoln
  • *
  • y de la lucha que hizo por Madrid
Part of my continuation to Makai Butterfly is structured around Byakuren's spellcards >:D I already hinted to a backstory for Devil's Recitation
Spoiler:
now if I only have the guts to actually implement it >_>;

I am looking forward to that :3 I find a fun writing exercise when fleshing out a character is to fight them, play them, see their spellcards, and think of what could have inspired the character to make them. As Marisa put it, "It is not too far off to say that a spellcard describes the user." Coincidentally, it's one of the reasons I like Byakuren so much; her choice in spellcard names and styles intrigues me, especially Devil's Recitation. Same goes with Shikieiki; I didn't actually like her very much until her final StB spellcard shows up, where she summons Aya's sinful self to do battle with her, and the last test of skill and power is the defeat of your own sinful self. That is awesome, and I do love extrapolating character traits from cards with dynamic traits like that behind them.

You better implement it, in other words. >:<

Ninja by Hieda no Aya: Augh, I will give my thoughts on this but for now I have to run off to school. Also: I'd like to see what you've written. "Produced anything worth posting", is that so~?

Jana

  • mrgrgr
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Superhuman "Byakuren Hijiri" *WHOOOOOSH*

Silliness aside, spell cards are a great way to play around with characters. Comparing the spell cards of two very different Stage 6 bosses is a great way to see this. Eirin and Utsuho are my favorites to play with, just because they're so completely different.

I don't really write, so I don't know how much stock anything I have to say is worth, but I kind of like to explore the holes in ZUN's canon. (The only time I ever considered writing something was going to be a story about Koakuma and Patchouli's relationship as employee and employer.) I don't feel like there's anything terrible about using fanon details/personalities for characters, but I don't dismiss anything that stays as true to canon as possible in the Touhou fandom.

Hieda no Aya

  • I see you remodeled.
...Okay yeah, I know everyone thinks that. I'm not a bad writer on a technical level, I think, but I have trouble putting a story together. M-maybe I'll think about it?

Incidentally, it occurs to me that I have my own pet interpretation of Yumeko that popped into my head and I got attached to and I have no idea if anyone else ever sees it either. Of course, her canon is like twenty lines of dialogue anyway. It'd be fun to be able to get some use out of that sometime.

(Also it turns out I'm also running out the door too, so hey!)

My policy is to do whatever the hell I want, and to do it as well as I can. Apart From Anything Else, with OCs, I avoid "Mary Sue" status by making the "present" characters largely unimportant in the grand scheme of things (or indeed any of the plots so far), and by making the "future" characters have to live up to their parental figures' reputation (by the end of the 60-year cycle that began in PoFV, Reimu, Marisa, and Yukari are basically the biggest names in Gensokyo). As for fanon things like "Shinki is Alice's mom," well, I've actually thought such things through, in this case figuring out exactly how their mother-daughter dynamic would work and coming up with a reason why Alice has been staying in Gensokyo for the past ten years (other than "it got sealed up with her on the wrong side" since she seems to be taking it rather well).

As for the shipping ... I was mostly reacting to the "poor, poor Alice" thing, especially on Walfas, and I guess I got carried away ...

Bias Bus

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I can't really make Danmaku look as good as it's supposed to be in Touhou, I'm going to be honest here. My mindset and style revolve so closesly to the 'traditional' way of attacks (as in physical contact and such) that it usually overrides the Danmaku aspect of whatever battle I'm writing,
Spoiler:
If you read MM, you'll notice Yumemi's fight with Nojiko had very little Danmaku in it at all and that's not because the fight itself was short
.

However, what really seems to be bugging me is the fact that I'm using characters that have little affinity or association with magic and thus probably can't use Danmaku as a form of self-defense against those who can. Should I really take the time to explain why Yumemi and Chiyuri have (and can use a spellcard) even though the both of them were absent from Gensokyo the moment they were introduced? Or should I just say "Fuck it" and let the readers think of their own reasons for it?

Rikako is an odd exception, given she's known to use magic, albeit to her own disdain.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 08:57:09 PM by Holy Dragon Erebus »
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Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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Another thing I like about canon Touhou is that while on the one hand, it can provide challenging limitations to work within, it's also an enormous mine of material to dig into. Even with characters who have little or no profile information, what scraps we have we can use to build upon. And of course, more established characters provide us with a wider foundation on which to build events.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Jana

  • mrgrgr
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Rikako is an odd exception, given she's known to use magic, albeit to her own disdain.

That's part of why I love her~

That's a good point, Rain/Ammy. When I was gathering material on Patchouli for that old idea of mine, even the little snippets of personality from her lines in the games she's been in provide a lot to work with. She's fairly well exposed in Touhou, given her number of appearances, but characters that were in only one or two games still have a lot to work with... Just look at the newcomers in UFO and all that's been done with them already.

A question to all of you established fanfiction writers (and by "established", I mean you've actually written something, anything!).

I'm wondering how many of you would be interested in having your stories converted into Visual Novel format? The reason I ask is because I'm thinking of messing with Ren'Py sometime (in maybe a month or so when my classes are over), and if I want to do some practice projects, I'll need material.

The biggest issue however is graphics. If anyone is eager to do this, they'll need to collaborate with with one of our (or any) artists to make backgrounds and cutins.


But yeah for now I'm just wondering if there is any interest for this sort of thing.

Yeah, that's another thing I like -- taking the various concepts to bits and seeing how they fit together. Like, my theory that "Gensokyo is a paradise where nothing bad ever really happens" + "things exist in Gensokyo if enough people in the Outside World actively disbelieve in it" = the Outside World must be a "crapsack world," at least for enough people.

One of the comments I've gotten on Redefined Fantastic Object ch2 was in my depiction of danmaku battles, and how much it seemed to be true to canon.

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
A question to all of you established fanfiction writers (and by "established", I mean you've actually written something, anything!).

I'm wondering how many of you would be interested in having your stories converted into Visual Novel format? The reason I ask is because I'm thinking of messing with Ren'Py sometime (in maybe a month or so when my classes are over), and if I want to do some practice projects, I'll need material.

The biggest issue however is graphics. If anyone is eager to do this, they'll need to collaborate with with one of our (or any) artists to make backgrounds and cutins.


But yeah for now I'm just wondering if there is any interest for this sort of thing.

I'm highly interested in getting my stories converted to at the least doujin/manga form. Visual Novel would be interesting, too.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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  • I said, with a posed look.
I'm also very interested. I think it would be great fun to write multiple possible plotlines for a story depending and decisions the reader makes. I'll start charting one out now. What kind of genres would work best, do you think?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

I'm also very interested. I think it would be great fun to write multiple possible plotlines for a story depending and decisions the reader makes. I'll start charting one out now. What kind of genres would work best, do you think?
I was originally thinking of just using existing stories, but hey if you're willing to actually make a script fitting for a VN then that works too.

Also I suppose the ol' dating sim works well since it's been done so much with VNs, but really anything should work since a visual novel is no more than a novel with pictures, sounds, and a little bit of interaction (which isn't even necessary)

Although personally I think it would be interesting if someone tried making a mystery VN.


Edit: Oh man, the Ren'Py code is rediculously simple and easy to use. So yeah this is a definite possiblity for me. The main issue is making all of the graphics.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 04:34:43 AM by Suikama the Robotic Unicorn »

IcedFairy

But yeah for now I'm just wondering if there is any interest for this sort of thing.
Well....  I may have thought of something along those lines....

Speaking from experience, getting and keeping a group is hard.  Especially since you need artists and like minded writers.  Artists are especially hard to hold on to.  We got lucky.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 06:27:24 AM by IcedFairy »

Graph

  • Let's go, Trombe!
Hmm, let me put this out there.

I'm currently drawing for Iced Fairy's VN project.  I've got too much on my plate for other projects, but if anyone is willing to try making VN-style character poses I'll share the process I've developed over the past few months.  Of course, the value of that process will depend on whether or not I actually manage to get through this ordeal, but that's a chance you'll have to take since there isn't really a precedent for this...

A word on what to expect if you're moving for an ambitious project, like in the scale of Tsukihime.  Beware the character count of Touhou, you can easily end up with 300+ poses if you decide to include most of the cast, and also want to have the girls change into other outfits once in a while.  You can have a bunch of people working on the art, just don't expect it to turn out consistent.  If you wanna have a couple of artists do the whole nine yards... let's just say that the chances of finding artists who'll stick with it without a commission is pretty slim.  I wouldn't count on finding someone in the small Western Touhou fanbase who has the skill, speed AND time personally.

Okay, I'm done ranting.  All I'm suggesting is that you fellas set reasonable expectations when planning out a project.  If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, please ask.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 08:10:41 AM by Graph »

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Odds are then, better off to just try getting a simple doujin drawn up before moving into VN territory. Build a rapport between the artist and writer, then.

Well MotK does have quite a few artists, and who knows maybe one of them is interested.

Graph

  • Let's go, Trombe!
Well MotK does have quite a few artists, and who knows maybe one of them is interested.

You can certainly try.  I'd say I'm from around here so you might strike it rich.  I apologize for sounding terribly jaded, it's just that out of the 6 or so artists that joined our project, 5 of them left or went MIA after a few months, leaving only me.  Your average Touhou fanartist has no idea how big of a job it can be and it's only natural if they have second thoughts after attempting it.  If you'd rather not accept rough-looking work the only sure way is to commission someone.

If trying to get someone from around here just don't set the quality bar too high, and let them reuse stances as much as they need to (You know how in VNs they make a different pose by just changing the face?).  To start off with you might actually make one pose for each character and just change the face to get variations.  You can also try getting one person doing the lineart and one person doing the colors, we tried that too.  However then you have TWO people you're hoping won't just take off, so it's just as risky, if not moreso.

Yeah, I might scare off the folks that take the workload of a commercial VN lightly.  Trust me when I say it's for your own good.  If someone still goes for it despite this you can ask me how to go about organizing the work.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Isn't Formless God stil around?

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Gpop

I'm really interested in having my fic to be displayed visually. It's what I really think about it.

Count me in if you're cool with it.

I'm really interested in having my fic to be displayed visually. It's what I really think about it.

Count me in if you're cool with it.
Like I said, it's no problem for me. You just have to find an artist though :V

You can certainly try.  I'd say I'm from around here so you might strike it rich.  I apologize for sounding terribly jaded, it's just that out of the 6 or so artists that joined our project, 5 of them left or went MIA after a few months, leaving only me.  Your average Touhou fanartist has no idea how big of a job it can be and it's only natural if they have second thoughts after attempting it.  If you'd rather not accept rough-looking work the only sure way is to commission someone.

If trying to get someone from around here just don't set the quality bar too high, and let them reuse stances as much as they need to (You know how in VNs they make a different pose by just changing the face?).  To start off with you might actually make one pose for each character and just change the face to get variations.  You can also try getting one person doing the lineart and one person doing the colors, we tried that too.  However then you have TWO people you're hoping won't just take off, so it's just as risky, if not moreso.

Yeah, I might scare off the folks that take the workload of a commercial VN lightly.  Trust me when I say it's for your own good.  If someone still goes for it despite this you can ask me how to go about organizing the work.
I'm not aiming of commercial projects right now. This is just practice for me and the writer gets thier story in VN form.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 10:29:43 PM by Suikama the Robotic Unicorn »

Hmm. I've had a story I've been tossing around in my head which I've wanted to do in comic form, but I'd need an artist to do that, too. (Perfect Square was originally intended to be this, but it would have had to be ridiculously long ...)

Gpop

Like I said, it's no problem for me. You just have to find an artist though :V
I'm not aiming of commercial projects right now. This is just practice for me and the writer gets thier story in VN form.

Hmm...I think I have a few candidates for this...

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
Theres no shortage of writers here, of course.

Offering yourself up as an artist in search of practice was proooobably a bad idea - at least, publically. Now you'll be swarmed by the lot of us.

Graph

  • Let's go, Trombe!
Offering yourself up as an artist in search of practice was proooobably a bad idea - at least, publically. Now you'll be swarmed by the lot of us.

I... can't figure out who you're talking to.  Did someone make an offer and then retract it?  (understandable I guess)

Esifex

  • Though the sun may set
  • *
  • It shall rise again
I... can't figure out who you're talking to.  Did someone make an offer and then retract it?  (understandable I guess)

Suikama offered up ARTISTRY SKILLS to a writer.

Suikama offered up ARTISTRY SKILLS to a writer.
Uh... no I didn't :V

I'm saying I'll do all the programming

You can only expect ZUN art from me :V