Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc  (Read 137671 times)

game2011

  • mineiptXD
    • Supreme ??asual Dating Verified Women
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2017, 03:03:45 AM »
People are going insane because Touhou 16 is tagged as "anime" on Steam...

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2017, 05:45:43 AM »
and they're idiots and/or it's just meme outrage, because 99.9% of everything on steam tagged anime isn't itself anime either

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Shadowlupus

  • Crimson Blade Hidden Amidst the Darkness
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2017, 06:45:47 AM »
Never mind this one. People have answered the question in another site.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 07:37:28 AM by Shadowlupus »

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2017, 08:25:11 AM »
It isn't as though the interviews didn't happen, but it is basically a tabloid, so Aya's personal commentary is even less reliable than her commentary in her regular articles and should be kept in mind for context.

EDIT: ok lol

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Goomba98

  • Touhou ga daisuki!
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #154 on: December 05, 2017, 10:21:20 PM »
Where has ZUN officially confirmed that the characters returning from the PC-98 era are the same people? xJeePx remembers reading that but can't remember the source.

Also, can anybody specifically name some of the redesigns that they mentioned in this PM quote:
Quote
First of all, all of these characters have the same names and the same looks. Sure, there are some examples like Reimu's hair color change, but her hair color was made purple on purpose, considering the color limitaions of the PC-98 (not to mention, Marisa had red hair in SoEW, and starting with PoDD, has blonde hair to this day). It's just simple redesign, which a lot of characters got through both PC-98 and Windows games, and the manga.
as well as some personality changes that happened in the middle of those eras? I can name Marisa having blue clothes in SA and HM/ULiL, and Nitori turning from shy to mean in the span of a few games, but are there any others?

(All this is because I'm trying to convince someone on another site that the PC-98 games are canon, by the way. I'm not doubting this info I'm posting, I'd just like some elaboration.)

PK

  • Border of Whatever
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #155 on: December 05, 2017, 10:50:10 PM »
Similarly, i'd like to see where he said there was a clean sweep from pc-98.
I know where he said you can ignore pc98 like you can ignore derivative works, but i personally never found the clean sweep part.

Goomba98

  • Touhou ga daisuki!
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #156 on: December 05, 2017, 11:07:25 PM »
Similarly, i'd like to see where he said there was a clean sweep from pc-98.
He probably never did, since his statements in recent interviews like AWA 2013 contradict that "clean sweep" thing. Unless it's like how Nintendo changed their story on the Koopalings being Bowser's biological children, and decided they weren't.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:13:11 PM by Goomba98 »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #157 on: December 06, 2017, 03:19:19 AM »
I believe the most recent thing he's said on the subject was his commentary on Yuuka's profile in Strange Creators volume 3. He idly wonders if he could get away with bringing back even more PC-98 characters now, but seems to treat them as if they exist but are retired.

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #158 on: December 06, 2017, 10:03:13 AM »
BBS posts. These are from a series of posts between PCB's trial and full version.

>Q.「アリス」は紅魔郷以前の東方シリーズに登場していたキャラなのですか?
  A.アリスは東方怪綺談(シリーズ第5弾)でも3面ボスでした。
    特に関連性は無いし、思いっきり別人です(^^;ので気にしなくても大丈夫ですよ。

Q: Is Alice a character from the pre-EoSD Touhou series?
A: Alice is the 3rd stage boss from Mystic Square (the 5th game).
   They aren't particularly related; you can completely think of them as different people, so don't worry about it.

> Q.「アリス」は怪奇談のアリスと本当に関係ないんですか?
   A.一応、同一人物ですが、ストーリー的には一切関係ありません。
    妖々夢のストーリー的にも、まるで重要な位置にいません。
    (というか妖々夢体験版に出てくるキャラは、全員ストーリーに無関係です(笑))

Q: Alice really doesn't have any connection to Mystic Square's Alice?
A: More or less they are the same character, but story-wise they are completely unrelated.
   She doesn't play any important role in PCB's story either.
   (Or rather, none of the characters that appear in the trial have anything to do with the story lol)

> Q.「幻想郷」旧作を知らないのですが、霊夢とアリスの過去になにが・・・?
  A.基本的に、ストーリーに関係するキャラは全て紅魔郷以降になります。
    一応、紅魔郷から全体の設定を一掃したので、新シリーズみたいなもんだと
    思っていただけると(^^;

Q: I haven't played the old works, but was there something with Reimu and Alice in the past?
A: Basically, all of the story-relevant characters have become the ones from EoSD and on.
   More or less, since EoSD the entire setting has been swept clean, so if you could, please think of it like a new series.


Note that despite using the wording "same character" and "story-wise" above, it should be made clear that he's saying Windows Alice and PC-98 Alice are not the same person, but are conceptually the same character. He is reusing the template of Alice as this character, so while they are both conceptually "Alice", she is not tangibly related to the Alice you see in MS. ZUN uses the word "story" a lot here to talk about what we might talk of as worldbuilding, because at the time ZUN wasn't really thinking much about worldbuilding but rather splitting things into basically "story" and "filler"; only later on going back to take these elements and fold them back into the bigger picture.


He probably never did, since his statements in recent interviews like AWA 2013 contradict that "clean sweep" thing.
No it doesn't. He stated the same methodology he's been working under since forever.

Q: Is PC-98 canon?
A: The world they?re set in is the same. However, when I first started making Touhou, I didn?t think I would keep making new games as long as I did, so I?m aware there may be some contradictions. In those cases, please take the latest games as more correct.


You're going to run into major roadblocks without some seriously intense confirmation bias, if your goal is to show that PC-98 is "canon", whatever you actually mean by that.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:22:54 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

PK

  • Border of Whatever
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #159 on: December 06, 2017, 11:22:35 AM »
Thanks. Finally found it on the wiki. Turns out searching "swept clean" and "clean sweep" didn't work because it was translated as "clean state".

Goomba98

  • Touhou ga daisuki!
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #160 on: December 06, 2017, 11:33:50 AM »
Maybe you should tell xJeePx about that. He's the guy that made the PC-98 Touhou English patches, and he included a few images about why he thinks they are canon. He actually told me he remembered hearing something from ZUN about the PC-98 and Windows characters being the same. Is he just misremembering?

Someone on deviantArt made a comic about it too. Is he being confirmation-biased too?

(I can settle with using the term "ambiguously canon", by the way. That's what the Zelda Wiki uses for games like the BS-X games and the Tingle spinoffs.)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:45:43 AM by Goomba98 »

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #161 on: December 06, 2017, 12:50:38 PM »
The author of that comic doesn't know what a homage is, it seems.

It's best to treat PC-98 stuff as a separate canon in a vaguely similar setting. Compare it to what's going on in Castlevania series - both older games and Lord of Shadow continuity have characters like Dracula, Simon Belmont and a few others, and even some events kinda overlap. But the two canons are not actually connected to each other despite that.

Now, Touhou has never been outright rebooted, but the way ZUN has been treating PC-98 stuff as a whole shows that it might have as well been. There is an obvious rift between the two canons, and denying it by bootstrapping the two together is a fool's errand.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #162 on: December 06, 2017, 04:31:30 PM »
(I can settle with using the term "ambiguously canon", by the way. That's what the Zelda Wiki uses for games like the BS-X games and the Tingle spinoffs.)
Yeah, I think that's the best term to describe the PC-98 games. Nothing outright says they're not canon, but later installments pretty much pretend they don't exist and they're utterly unimportant to current Gensokyo.

Prime32

  • Munch-Munch Demon
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #163 on: December 06, 2017, 09:32:30 PM »
I can name Marisa having blue clothes in SA and HM/ULiL, and Nitori turning from shy to mean in the span of a few games, but are there any others?
On the first of these, Marisa owns more than one set of clothes. WaHH has her wear a different variant of "witch outfit" in almost every chapter.

For the second: In her very first appearance Nitori sucks up to Reimu and Marisa (which they even call her out on), tries to trick them into getting rid of Kanako for her, and if they can't help she switches abruptly from praising humans to insulting them. Then in one of Marisa's endings (after the kappa have realised they can benefit from Kanako) she denies ever helping Marisa, saying she "forced her way in", while also acting like Marisa is ungrateful for her help.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2017, 01:57:48 AM »
Almost every character has a slightly different outfit every time they show up. The most obvious to the fandom would be Yukari's change between PCB and IN, but basically ZUN almost never draws the exact same outfit twice. Even Yuyuko's kimono changes patterns every time she appears.

Sophilia

  • Exposition Patchouli
  • Seeker of Truth
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #165 on: December 07, 2017, 04:19:20 AM »
As ZUN says, in case of contradiction, you take the new material.  It only makes sense.  That still leaves a lot of things not only standing, but referred back to, though.  From dialogue, Alice is still Alice, and Yuuka is still Yuuka.  Rinnosuke even talks about Mima.

Though there are certainly things I can say were wiped away.  Kurumi and Elis no longer exist because of the Scarlet Mansion's plotline.  And PoDD is probably entirely excised, which is a shame because those characters were fun.
Life and death are without purpose.  Our attempts to give them one are quite presumptuous of us.  But in the end, we exist, and that is enough.

Current status: Dissuading deliberately choking for imagined fame.

PK

  • Border of Whatever
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #166 on: December 10, 2017, 04:28:42 PM »
Thinking about it, Sagume's plan to transfer the Lunar Capital in TH15 was meant to work due to rumors eventually making it materialize in Gensokyo.
Since the urban legends are still going on, how can Sagume be sure that the whole city doesn't get suddenly forced in Gensokyo with everyone in it?
Or would it just create a second Lunar Capital with no one inside?

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #167 on: December 11, 2017, 07:32:05 AM »
Thinking about it, Sagume's plan to transfer the Lunar Capital in TH15 was meant to work due to rumors eventually making it materialize in Gensokyo.
Since the urban legends are still going on, how can Sagume be sure that the whole city doesn't get suddenly forced in Gensokyo with everyone in it?
Or would it just create a second Lunar Capital with no one inside?

They're kind of vague about how exactly this works, but the entire Urban Legend incident is derived from Sagume's own power. It's an application of her ability to change the truth with words. So presumably she has some control of it. It was also implied that she would have been responsible for "pulling the trigger" when the Lunar Capital was ready to move, so what was going on in ULiL was merely a preliminary set-up.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #168 on: December 17, 2017, 04:03:25 AM »
Why is Nazrin listed with a higher threat level than Shou in SOPM?

Is this a power ranking? Or is it just saying Nazrin would be a worse threat to a human than Shou (being friendly to humans) would.
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #169 on: December 17, 2017, 04:16:18 AM »
The Danger levels in PMiSS and SoPM refer to things like passive dangers, potential accidents, consequences of retaliation/offense, etc. Take for example Yuyuko, Suika, and Hina, who have High/Medium friendship levels but are Very High dangers. Hina in particular isn't "powerful" but can still have extreme effects on humans.

As far as Shou and Nazrin go, nothing about Shou is really dangerous at all. She barely even retains her original nature and isn't a violent person even incidentally. Meanwhile Nazrin is at least somewhat dangerous due to her mice and general disposition, I would guess.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #170 on: December 18, 2017, 04:38:07 AM »
The short answer is that they're not power levels. It's just literally how dangerous they are for an average human to meet, in Akyuu's opinion.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #171 on: December 18, 2017, 07:59:07 AM »
That's what i thought, Shou is a avatar of a popular Buddhist/Hindu deity who would is fine with humans. Unlikely she would cause harm to humans very much.
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Prime32

  • Munch-Munch Demon
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #172 on: December 26, 2017, 07:19:13 PM »
Are there any fanworks featuring the Night Parade demon from Forbidden Scrollery?
Spoiler:
It seems like prime material for final boss of a fangame, particularly since its ability to absorb tsukumogami lets you scale it up in power by having it absorb Kokoro/the Miracle Mallet/etc.

Hello Purvis

  • *
  • Hello Jerry
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2018, 12:24:06 PM »
Here's a question: Who made this song?

It is neat. =[

N-Forza

  • Information Superhighway Robbery
  • *
  • I said it was a steal, but not for whom
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #174 on: January 15, 2018, 12:45:43 PM »
Shows the credits at the very end: 平茸 (Hiratake) from the circle Aftergrow. Doesn't seem terribly active as of late, though.

Hello Purvis

  • *
  • Hello Jerry
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #175 on: January 15, 2018, 01:19:20 PM »
Well that shows what I get for not watching the whole thing. I'm a spoiled baby and used to all that data being in the description. =[

Thanks Forza!

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #176 on: January 19, 2018, 04:21:25 AM »
Is there any canonical source that states the Human Village as being build by Youkai Hunters?
My old avatars: Old ass turtle, Unzan - Second and Current Avatar by the talented Aoshi-shi

Drake

  • *
Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #177 on: January 19, 2018, 06:34:38 AM »
The closest thing is probably PCB's prologue talking about humans that settled in Gensokyo to fight youkai. But as I tend to say about it, and is the case here, PCB's prologue is a terrible source of information due to being written before any of the setting we think of today was established, and contradicting the modern setting in many places.

That being said, that doesn't mean it's wrong, and it's pretty easy to see this being the case. It only makes sense that a secluded and dangerous area like Gensokyo wouldn't have humans settle there just incidentally, and the fact that youkai extermination is a tradition implies that it's been commonplace in Gensokyo for quite a while even if now there's barely anyone doing it.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #178 on: January 23, 2018, 02:09:35 AM »
I probably just have a hard time understanding the mechanics of her power, but I feel compelled to ask anyway.

If she can reverse a situation with her words, why couldn't she just meet with some other upper-ranking Lunarians and say "The Lunar Capital is doomed" or something similar to reverse the situation in LoLK? It makes more sense than staking on a gamble with the heroines.
Maybe all the invading fairies would spontaneously die of heart attacks if she did? If that's beyond the scope of her ability, then it's description should be "reversing a situation with her words within realistic expectations."

I know it's not that the opposite of whatever she says will happen, but I can't really  tell the difference.

Drake

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions 7 - To Misc or not to Misc
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2018, 05:10:59 AM »
First of all, she can't know for sure that the Lunar Capital would be doomed under the regular flow of events, so if it wasn't actually doomed, then she could cause it accidentally. More importantly though she would have no control over how exactly the situation is reversed nor what about it is. Her power is always a game of probabilities which is why it's finicky. The invading fairies probably couldn't just die of heart attacks because that isn't very likely to happen. You have to ask, what are likely scenarios that could happen, assuming that some part of what she's talking about is the pivot that is reversed? It isn't necessarily about "realistic" expectations, since the situation being reversed can be what would normally be the most obvious outcome and anything but that could be seen as unrealistic.

For example, Sagume could enter a lottery and say "I will win the lottery" (or "I will lose the lottery", etc). Naively, one might think this means she would win the lottery because normally she would lose, but reality isn't just simple yes-no logic. Is it more likely that she would win the grand prize lottery, or that she would win smaller prizes? Or if the lottery is just one take-all prize, is it more likely that she would win the lottery, or that some other sequence of events would occur around the lottery or her life that still prevents her from winning (for example, losing the ticket or forgetting to check it, that normally she wouldn't)? Plus, how would reality need to contort itself to accommodate her winning, especially if the ticket she gets is only from a select bunch in the store she buys from, or the winning numbers are determined beforehand, and what are the likelihoods of these things happening? It's difficult to predict.

How this plays out in LoLK is that they're already this far into the Lunar Capital's plan, and the protagonist was already being sent there by Eirin to stop the plan / save the Capital, that it made sense to Sagume that the most likely outcome of the reversal is that the protagonist would defeat Junko, which they were already set to do. The only things that her ability might have actually affected were the protagonist's actual chance of winning the fight, because it makes sense that it might only take small tweaks to reality, if any, to get them to win against her, and thereby save the Capital and stop the moving plan. So in her eyes, that was the most probable scenario that would occur once she would reverse the current situation.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -