Author Topic: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest  (Read 74277 times)

Kilgamayan

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2018, 07:46:24 PM »
Momizi consistently lands around 20. She was #21 for three years in a row IIRC. It's likely a combination of wolf girl + silver hair + sword + Aya love interest (a lot of people either didn't play DS or just straight up 86ed it). She's like Mokou in that she gets a boost from the Inuyasha factor.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:48:01 PM by Kilgamayan »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2018, 07:47:40 PM »

How the hell is Momiji that high, though?? She barely appears and the only time she talks is in a SoPM article. Is it that terrible 'awoo' meme?
I suppose this time she is excused because of her talk and appearance in AFiEU? That was a really cute pic :q

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2018, 08:00:05 PM »
Wait, Shion jumped over Yuyuko in less than a month?  :wat:

And I'm kinda annoyed at Tenko's jump after her AoCF dialogues, but years of fans will do that to you, I guess.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2018, 08:03:25 PM »
People all surprised at Shion's placement forget that Sagume was #14 in her debut.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2018, 08:06:39 PM »
Some girls escaped the sandwiches, bah.  :V

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2018, 08:39:37 PM »
Kisume slipped down five places you have all fucked up and I will take appropriate actions in the future.

Also Okina beat out Aunn. Did not expect that.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2018, 08:56:02 PM »
Miko has been shown as pro-human and anti-youkai.

To the extend of wanting to kill all Youkai? No. She just believes humans need a good leader.

Mamizou has been shown as a schemer who's eager to get power and influence in Gensokyo.
But none of her schemes have portended to taking over all of japan, if anything her goals seem to just be helping young Youkai become better and wiser.

What their dream selves say are reasonable exaggeration of what have been shown of them.

I'm not denying this, i'm just pointing out that people are really quick to accuse Byakuren of being an lazy bum because of her dream self, but they are ignoring that the dream selfs are clearly not how the characters would normally act.

A part of Byakuren might be lazy, that doesn't mean she always goes out of her way to avoid work all day.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2018, 09:13:01 PM »
It's not so much that I take Byakuren's dream self to actually represent her. It's definitely and clearly exaggerated. But with characters like Mamizou or Miko they make it very clear upfront what you're getting. No, Mamizou isn't trying to take over Japan. But she's definitely a very ambitious person. This is just the traits that we already see taken to the next level.

On the flip side, Byakuren very much tries to hide this side of herself. Deep down she's still the woman who's terrified of death, who uses magic to make herself look pretty, and uses her disciples so that she doesn't have to do chores. While Miko's dream self is an exaggeration of her upfront traits, Byakuren's internal thoughts contradict the way she tries to present herself. It makes her seem hypocritical, she's pretending to be something she's not.

As Drake said, this has always been the case with her. It's that, for me, AoCF really hammered it home. And it's not like I think she's a horrible person or anything. It's just that the reason I've always liked her so much is because I've always seen her as an incredibly selfless, "paragon of virtue", youkai Jesus type character. While it was my mistake in the first place for not reading the signs, now that I understand how she is she's just no longer as awesome as I once thought. It's kind of like learning that santa claus is just your dad in a costume. There's really no one to hate or blame, you're not going to hold it against your dad, but you're not going to listen for reigndeer or leave out cookies anymore.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2018, 09:37:13 PM »
Quote
On the flip side, Byakuren very much tries to hide this side of herself. Deep down she's still the woman who's terrified of death, who uses magic to make herself look pretty, and uses her disciples so that she doesn't have to do chores. While Miko's dream self is an exaggeration of her upfront traits, Byakuren's internal thoughts contradict the way she tries to present herself. It makes her seem hypocritical, she's pretending to be something she's not.

Doesn't everyone have a part of them like that, though? The fact that Byakuren has some selfish tendencies buried deep down doesn't change the fact that she genuinely wishes for the wellbeing of youkai and humans. Nor do them occasionally leaking out into things like delegating chores out of laziness take away from all of her good qualities. If anything, I'd say it paints Byakuren as a flawed individual who's trying her best to live a good life on the path she has chosen, shouldering her past and the parts of it that linger with her.

As for the results, I for one am fairly happy with how the poll turned out. Seeing Tenshi get 12th place was exciting, as was seeing a good mix of characters in the top 30. I'm a little surprised at the relatively low showings for the HSiFS cast though. I had thought at least Aunn would get a strong placing - though one certainly can't complain with where she landed.
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Kilgamayan

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2018, 09:38:04 PM »
the reason I've always liked her so much is because I've always seen her as an incredibly selfless, "paragon of virtue", youkai Jesus type character

This is, I would say, the reason Byakuren is such a polarizing character, as was mentioned earlier; this had been a rather obviously untrue description of Byakuren for quite a while now. The MarisaB route of UFO even hinted at it, but after that, it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.

Frankly, I think Byakuren is far more interesting as the flawed character she is. A large part of my Miko fanness stems from how much of a rude, arrogant asshole she is even in her altruism. I can understand that people may want/need pure innocent oneesan characters in their lives (as much as I don't really see the appeal myself), but Touhou is probably the last place to look for that archetype, and it's uninformed at best and intellectually dishonest at worst to project that archetype onto Byakuren.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2018, 09:40:12 PM »
So I uh... kinda expected every result that appeared.

I was also trying to not bash my skull in while reading through the music list because there are some pretty terrible strange opinions there (Luna Dial in 16th? Above Flowering Night in 30th? Ack).

Also Hina got 50th! It's not spectacular, but I approve anyway.

How the hell is Momiji that high, though?? She barely appears and the only time she talks is in a SoPM article. Is it that terrible 'awoo' meme?
Because people either don't read up on their canon or do but don't actually stick to it lmao. Plus what Kilgamayan said about Inuyasha.
Even though it's not confirmed whether or not she actually has wolf ears or a tail, she probably has some of the most furry appeal of all Touhou characters, so she likely gets a lot of votes from that demographic too.

Kisume slipped down five places you have all fucked up and I will take appropriate actions in the future.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2018, 09:56:45 PM »
This is, I would say, the reason Byakuren is such a polarizing character, as was mentioned earlier; this had been a rather obviously untrue description of Byakuren for quite a while now. The MarisaB route of UFO even hinted at it, but after that, it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.

Frankly, I think Byakuren is far more interesting as the flawed character she is. A large part of my Miko fanness stems from how much of a rude, arrogant asshole she is even in her altruism. I can understand that people may want/need pure innocent oneesan characters in their lives (as much as I don't really see the appeal myself), but Touhou is probably the last place to look for that archetype, and it's uninformed at best and intellectually dishonest at worst to project that archetype onto Byakuren.
But see, this is part of what I was saying. It was my own fault for projecting that onto Byakuren, I should have acknowledged the signs and hints before it got to this point. I don't dislike her because "she did a 180", I don't even dislike her at all. I like characters that are extremely passionate about their ideals, who'll do anything to reach those ideals. Byakuren is not that character, so it's only natural that I wouldn't be as intesely into her now that I can see this. That said, while she's not my single favorite character, she still easily makes my top 7 because I do like the character that she actually is (or at least the way she seems now to me, maybe aspects of her are still going over my head, who knows.)

That said, I can enjoy more complex characters too. I like Tenshi and Miko a whole lot more after their AoCF portrayals, I've always loved Reimu for her straigthforwardness, and while she's less complex and more straight up an asshole, Seija's consistently been one of my favorites. It's just that that wasn't what I was seeing in Byakuren before. I've reevaluated my opinion, and I don't like her complexities as much as, say, Reimu or Miko.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 09:58:33 PM by TresserT »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2018, 09:59:12 PM »
Kisume had to go down, because new characters were added. It's not that she was less popular, she's just not more popular than she was last year.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2018, 10:20:51 PM »
I voted for Shizuha as my favorite, glad to see she moved up a tad.
Star Voyage 2008 came in 273rd, I'm a little sad but its a bit too obscure :/ No result surprised me, except maybe Shion.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2018, 10:49:13 PM »
Kisume had to go down, because new characters were added. It's not that she was less popular, she's just not more popular than she was last year.

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Honestly I'm surprised she didn't slip further.

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2018, 10:54:56 PM »
Very happy about Junko being top 30, about people actually liking LoLK (I thought everyone was silly "wow but rng it's sooo unfair junko patterns are soooo ugly lol" crowd), about Pure Furies in 3rd place and about most new themes getting good positions. Crazy Backup Dancers in particular.

I'm unhappy about people not really liking PoFV, about SA not beating MoF and about The Sea One's Home Planet is Reflected and Fires of Hokkai, two of my favorite themes, getting meh positions. I guess people like energetic final stage themes more.

Paz legalces

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2018, 04:46:11 AM »
it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.

Why is it that every popularity discussion thread would devolve into Byakuren bashing, just because a few veteran fans on the board are on the opposition side?
"It really came through in SoPM"? "People that knew the truth"? Oh please, don't speak like your stance is the objective 1 truth, whereas there have already been threads arguing about this on ends without a conclusion...
...but oh, how convenient it is to still be able to declare that anyone who disagree with the alleged narrative, and choose to defend her are ignorant and "willfully discarded", whereas those on your opposition sides are the only one who is allowed to be considered the enlightened one who knows the truth.

It was my own fault for projecting that onto Byakuren, I should have acknowledged the signs and hints before it got to this point.
All the "signs" and "hints" so far have been cherry pickings, context warping, exaggerations and mountain out of molehill
There has hardly been any silver bullet pointing out "Oh she was really ____ afterall!". Her personality has been quite consistent, but it's convenient to cherrypick and exaggerate minor points here and there to fit a certain narrative

The Byakuren Derangement Syndrome has really gone far round here
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:08:38 AM by Paz legalces »

Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2018, 05:22:46 AM »
Look, I'm not saying she's a monster. I'm saying she's not "our perfect and pure Youkai Jesus who'll stop at nothing to reach her dreams". Since that's what I liked about her, learning that she actually isn't that way has made me reevaluate my opinion.

All I was trying to say was "Byakuren's not my favorite anymore after AoCF, but I like Tenshi a bit more than I did before" and somehow it turned into this >_>
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Paz legalces

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2018, 06:03:00 AM »
Look, I'm not saying she's a monster. I'm saying she's not "our perfect and pure Youkai Jesus who'll stop at nothing to reach her dreams". Since that's what I liked about her, learning that she actually isn't that way has made me reevaluate my opinion.

All I was trying to say was "Byakuren's not my favorite anymore after AoCF, but I like Tenshi a bit more than I did before" and somehow it turned into this >_>

Yeah, but all of this "AoCF revelation" is based on what? A dreamworld version of herself, in a scene that clearly went for a humorous gag tone?
The dreamworld versions of characters are already specifically stated to be greatly exaggerated and magnified of their actual self; and most dreamworld version scenes are largely over the top ridiculous played-for-laugh, clearly meant to be taken with great grains of salt
...if all the dreamworld versions are to be taken at actual face value, then almost everyone would be legit considered either a raging loony... or outright *sshole
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 06:05:41 AM by Paz legalces »

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2018, 07:33:47 AM »
...if all the dreamworld versions are to be taken at actual face value, then almost everyone would be legit considered either a raging loony... or outright *sshole

Well, a good proportion of characters are assholes already, even without their ids being manifest.  But there are certainly ones that I wouldn't like nearly as much if they didn't have that side to them.  Satori, Marisa, Yuuka, and so on.

More specifically, to me this actually reflects well on Byakuren.  Like so many, she does have that side to her that she doesn't want to outright admit.  But Donut has the right of it - she's attempting to step away from her sins and walk a straight path, even if she's not perfect about it.  She was never a flawless "Youkai Jesus" like the meme has it.  But for me, it's more compelling to see her fighting against this selfish aspect of herself, rather than not having it in the first place.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2018, 08:12:57 AM »
More specifically, to me this actually reflects well on Byakuren.  Like so many, she does have that side to her that she doesn't want to outright admit.  But Donut has the right of it - she's attempting to step away from her sins and walk a straight path, even if she's not perfect about it.  She was never a flawless "Youkai Jesus" like the meme has it.  But for me, it's more compelling to see her fighting against this selfish aspect of herself, rather than not having it in the first place.

I guess the more base breaking question would be "is she really though?" Whether she's a hypocrite pretending to be a saint or a good person with "bad" thoughts but still trying to overcome them is pretty much up to individual interpretation at this point, I think.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2018, 08:17:45 AM »
Why is it that every popularity discussion thread would devolve into Byakuren bashing, just because a few veteran fans on the board are on the opposition side
Not just Byakuren. Every popularity contest people try to justify and argue why the vote of perhaps thousands of fans is right or wrong. Joking around and having fun, because character or music theme is ranked Nth, is no longer allowed. Nope. Everything has to be exactly and precisely explained and every aspect is magnified to study whether the voting matches official sources.

Imagine if nobody was allowed to vote for their favourite character because they wanted.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2018, 10:04:48 AM »
I'm a bit ashamed I forgot to vote for Byakuren now. If anything, my opinion on her has improved since AOCF. Instead of seeing her as sombody purely above me and respecting her as a hero, I now see her as sombody at the same level as me - trying to become a better person. She's trying to be the youkai jesus saint - she's trying her best. Nobody's perfect though. She has a bit of laziness to her but she's trying not to be lazy. If anything, enlightenment comes with it's own form of laziness. It's somthing to be overcome and you'd be hard pressed to find sombody who doesn't have somthing to overcome.

If any dream version has lowered my opinion of anybody it would be Toyosatomimi. She still wants to kill youkai like she tried in Hopeless Masquerade and she's also quite classist it seems. While she's clearly not as genocidal as her dream version, she's still not a likeable person to me and it seems that she hasn't improved.

I seem to take into account character development and potential quite a bit into how much I like a character. I prefer Joon over Shion because of how likely they are to improve - however it seems that activating people's "instict to protect" is much stronger than how much they're willing to improve. That being said, maybe I'm not taking into account the kind of love that Seija gets - where people love her because she isn't nice. I do prefer my nicer characters (even if I do have a different kind of love for Seija and Shion). To be fair though, Shion is more memorable.

I also don't know how much hype has played into this. Shion is a genuinely popular character but I half feel that coming out of AOCF hype has damaged the chances of the HSoFS characters. Okina will probably get her spot though - that's somthing I'm looking forward to.

Theorising why people got so high in the popularity contest is fun - even if I might be wrong.
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2018, 10:52:19 AM »
Except Marisa, I voted those that came to my mind first. Normally, Reimu would have made my list, too but she is gonna get first place either way, so might as well give someone else the spotlight.

Again, its pretty close between Marisa and Koishi. I fear the day where Marisa might lose her second place. (Yes, I am aware that Koishi got first in 2015 with Marisa on third place once)
Its also sad to see Aya kicked from the top ten. Seems like HSiFS didn't had the impact as I anticipated. Then again, it was released in the middle of the year and the human attention span isn't that long.  At least Cirno did rise 4 spots. :V

Can't say much about the music. "U.N. Owen was her?", like Reimu, is a save first place with Spetette on second. But I wonder why Pure Furies did see a rise in popularity. I love the song, don't get me wrong, but it "only" made place 10 last year. I wonder if some of the doujin circles are responsible with covers of the song.
Also, Youmu has still a pretty strong fanbase with so many first votes.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2018, 01:44:41 PM »
But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.

I must thank the audience for immediately providing perfect examples of both of these. :V

snip

Yeah, like, there's no problem at all if one re-evaluates their opinion based on new information. That's just being human. No need to worry. I was using your post as a convenient springboard to a clarifying point rather than trying to put you down or anything like that. The only thing worth being ashamed of in this sort of situation is being intellectually dishonest, which is an active, informed decision one makes.

rant rant rave

Who is "bashing" Byakuren? Pointing out that a flawed character has flaws is not putting that character down. In fact, in that very same post, I point out that I enjoy Miko largely precisely because of her flaws, and also say that being flawed makes Byakuren more interesting! Please do not employ misrepresentation and hyperbole if you wish to honestly discuss this.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:15:28 PM by Kilgamayan »
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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2018, 02:24:00 PM »
It's bashing because yalls (not you in particular, Kilga) blow it out of proportion and try to go all "SEE! SEE! SHE WAS ALWAYS THE WORST!" It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »
It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.

She's the only one who tries to look better than she is without acknowledging her negative side at all. That's called hypocrisy and nobody likes it. Why is that so hard to understand?

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2018, 02:57:16 PM »
Yeah, see, this is that bullshit right there.

Yalls acting like Byakuren is some unique awful thing because she has flaws and, gasp, tries to overcome them and be a better person rather than jsut wallowing in crapulence, as if it were somehow being deceptive rather than...how people are. No one else gets put up to this standard. You don't see people going "Well ACTUALLY! Reimu is super lazy and she's being a hypocrit by solving incidents!"

Like, this is some odd parallel to when people are like, "X person used gay as a slur ten years ago, so they are all terrible and 100% bad forever!" and completely ignore that maybe a person can grow and change and be better over time?

That was a very helpful example of my point, thank you.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2018, 03:17:18 PM »
You don't see people going "Well ACTUALLY! Reimu is super lazy and she's being a hypocrit by solving incidents!"

As a matter of fact, I do.

Also, I'm surprised you're completely unaware of Streisand effect. Because that's exactly why Byaku's dream self caused such a ruckus in fandom. For others they're an exaggeration of what we see and know of. For her it's an exaggeration of what everyone tries to ignore or wave off as if it's nothing.

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Re: 14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2018, 03:22:19 PM »
It's bashing because yalls (not you in particular, Kilga) blow it out of proportion and try to go all "SEE! SEE! SHE WAS ALWAYS THE WORST!" It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.

I would argue Byakuren is not generally unique in this regard and point to the Fortune Teller's somehow-increasing popularity as a fandom-indictment of the idea that Reimu is a good girl/hero/whatever. Though, perhaps Reimu and the Fortune Teller really only applies to the Eastern fandom while the Byakuren issue really only applies to the Western fandom.

Regardless, I believe Byakuren is the only 2hu to get this "purity test" because Byakuren more than any other 2hu has a fanbase that tries to apply purity to her in the first place. It's been long enough since her debut and the title "Youkai Jesus" has been used jokingly often enough that people have likely forgotten (or never realized in the first place) that the term was originally coined and used completely unironically. That is, if you see folks trying to knock Byakuren off her pedestal, it may very likely be because of how she was (at least somewhat dishonestly) put on that pedestal in the first place. Had Byakuren's flaws been generally acknowledged, accepted, and appreciated since the beginning, there wouldn't be a tenth of the people holding her feet to the fire.

It is true that Byakuren is not the literal worst.
Spoiler:
(It is not possible for her to be the literal worst as long as she is in the same franchise as Remilia. :colbert:)
It is also true that she is not a flawless saint. Both of these sentiments are worthy of scorn, especially if they come about as a result of intellectual dishonesty.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"