General IaMP/SWR/Hisotensoku Thread

[Esoterica]

Well for a lot of characters, after that 4th hit, you can't really attempt much else in terms of combos, and it'd basically mean all of your combos would have to come from the air.

And I'd play, but my experiences in Hamachi go something like....2-3 frames a second.

Unless you're playing Sanae, and even then only if your opponent isn't blocking, you should never finish a Dial-A because you can always do more damage by switching to bullets and specials after the third hit.  A blocked 4th hit of Dial-A is extremely punishable by pretty much whatever your opponent feels like doing.

On a different topic...did Okuu get a damage buff in 1.10?  I don't remember it being this easy to hit 4000 damage with her.

[Saber Nero]

I know, but in cases where the computer becomes a sitting shield, I really have no other choice other than to do all 4 hits. If I back off after the third hit to use bullets and specials, it'll just keep blocking them all.

[orinrin]

It's always fun to win a netplay match using only Sanae's j.2A.  A bit humiliating for the other person, but still fun.   :V

[Esoterica]

It's always fun to win a netplay match using only Sanae's j.2A.  A bit humiliating for the other person, but still fun.   :V

I hope you have a replay. :V  At first I was a little pissed because her original j2A was her best melee attack before, but the new one is both useful and silly. :V

[orinrin]

I hope you have a replay. :V  At first I was a little pissed because her original j2A was her best melee attack before, but the new one is both useful and silly. :V

Just ask Choja or Yadogari about it.   :V


Also, Aya's alt 22B/C with the leaping foot is just as fun.

[Gpop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8i9COTie9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koaVkcopCRg

Woo over-powered Suika woo!

[Esoterica]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8i9COTie9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koaVkcopCRg

Woo over-powered Suika woo!

She's actually only mid-tier in 1.10. :V  Only watched the first one, but I didn't even see any cards for her good moves in either deck, like her alt.623 Fire Oni.

On a completely different note...

EDIT: I'm dumb that's not a glitch ignore :V

[Gpop]

She's actually only mid-tier in 1.10. :V  Only watched the first one, but I didn't even see any cards for her good moves in either deck, like her alt.623 Fire Oni.

That's because I don't really use her much, so her deck's p.much SCs atm :V

[Esoterica]

I'm not a fan of Suika personally, but it's my understanding that if you learn how to do 5AA alt.623B, you've already learned about 80% of how to play her.

the other 20% is split between learning the followups to alt.623B, and what to do when you haven't drawn that card yet :V

If anything though, it's Yuyuko that's OP.  Way too much damage for the bullet cover and low-limiting melee she has, even after j2A got nerfed.  You can hit over 6000 damage with Bloom Sphere combos without control rods.

EDIT: Picture proof now.  Max level Bloom Sphere, four control rods.  Combo is 214B 214B 214B j2A.

[RoyKr]

I'm wondering if there's a chat room or something where i might find people who'd be interested in doing 12.3 matches. I tried google but it only came up with forums and facebook, which doesn't seem very ideal for this kind of thing. I don't want to sit and wait for a day because someone might read a post and decide to connect.

Would be easy if you could chat through Hamachi.

[Esoterica]

I'm wondering if there's a chat room or something where i might find people who'd be interested in doing 12.3 matches. I tried google but it only came up with forums and facebook, which doesn't seem very ideal for this kind of thing. I don't want to sit and wait for a day because someone might read a post and decide to connect.

Would be easy if you could chat through Hamachi.

irc.rizon.net, #hisouten

Be warned, they're good.

EDIT:

[attach=1]

214B 214B 214B 623C

[RoyKr]

Thanks.
To few people actually hosting games atm. Nothing happening when i host one.
Lots of people on, but i'm guessing they're PMing or something.

[ふねん1]

Be warned, they're good.

And yet they have guys like sibladeko come in and not waste any time saying how bad everyone is compared to Japan and how the English-speaking scene has stagnated months ago and blah blah blah. The first point makes perfect sense, because it's Japan, but that kind of attitude he has isn't helping anyone. After transferring most of my time from Smash to Touhou, I've stopped caring to become a truly competitive player in any fighting game - I like other genres a lot more. Hisoutensoku is still a good diversion from the norm though, and at this point I'll just let my curiosity determine what I learn about the game.

[Esoterica]

And yet they have guys like sibladeko come in and not waste any time saying how bad everyone is compared to Japan and how the English-speaking scene has stagnated months ago and blah blah blah. The first point makes perfect sense, because it's Japan, but that kind of attitude he has isn't helping anyone. After transferring most of my time from Smash to Touhou, I've stopped caring to become a truly competitive player in any fighting game - I like other genres a lot more. Hisoutensoku is still a good diversion from the norm though, and at this point I'll just let my curiosity determine what I learn about the game.

As a general rule of thumb, non-Japanese players really do manage to ignore some crucial things key to advanced play in fighting games.  I could play Guilty Gear against just about anyone I know, and I guarantee you I could do an overhead attack for oki and 98% of them would either try to jab through it or block it low.

Though to be fair, I only played against three or four different people.  I did play against a pretty crappy Reimu there, but still lost most of the rounds because I was having an off day.

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXcf6DRvYio :3

[Saber Nero]

Ah, so you're that person I've been looking up recently on youtube. I'm going to guess the people you fought in those videos were from the IRC chat room?

[Esoterica]

Ah, so you're that person I've been looking up recently on youtube. I'm going to guess the people you fought in those videos were from the IRC chat room?

The three matches I uploaded were actually Japanese players from 1.03, hence the lack of names being given.

[N-Forza]

According to Japanese 12.3 rating site, http://tenco.info/ the top tier is Yuyuko, Suika, Okuu, and Iku. Bottom tier is Cirno and Meiling, with Suwako, Alice, and Sakuya being slightly less bad. However, there are still players who can destroy even with the bottom tier, so it seems like a decently balanced game, at least for a doujin fighter.

But yeah, the Japanese scene is pretty crazy. I play random pick-up games over Twitter because I can't host, and 9/10 I will get stomped hard. It probably doesn't help that my main is Aya, who is just barely above Suwako, Alice and Sakuya. I'm probably going back to learning Iku better after this upcoming tourney at Reitaisai SP. Aya just kept getting nerfed with every patch ever since 12.3 came out. OTL

Basically, my number one main problem is that I don't block nearly enough. I get too antsy while their in the middle of their blockstring and stop blocking. Also, since turning around in this game seems less automatic than most fighting games, I will accidentally do a move before stopping to turn around. Generally not a good idea.

[ふねん1]

According to Japanese 12.3 rating site, http://tenco.info/ the top tier is Yuyuko, Suika, Okuu, and Iku. Bottom tier is Cirno and Meiling, with Suwako, Alice, and Sakuya being slightly less bad. However, there are still players who can destroy even with the bottom tier, so it seems like a decently balanced game, at least for a doujin fighter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Tenco really considered the reliable reference for tiers? Urahiso has one of its own, and supposedly its creators discount Tenco because they expect a certain amount of skill (though I don't know enough to have an opinion of one over the other). Urahiso's order goes like this:

S: Iku, Remilia, Sakuya, Yuyuko
A: Patchouli, Reisen, Yukari
B: Tenshi, Marisa, Suika, Youmu, Okuu
B-: Reimu, China
C: Suwako, Komachi, Aya, Sanae
D: Cirno, Alice

Yeah, apparently Sakuya is top-tier. Individual player skill (and their tourney success) certainly would affect how good a character appears. For instance, I believe KamiG (a Marisa player) placed second in this big tourney recently, losing to a Sakuya.

Again, I don't know enough about all this to state which one is more reliable, but I'm putting this here for reference/discussion.

[Ryuu]

pssh tier lists


Just play who you like. :V

[Esoterica]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Tenco really considered the reliable reference for tiers? Urahiso has one of its own, and supposedly its creators discount Tenco because they expect a certain amount of skill (though I don't know enough to have an opinion of one over the other). Urahiso's order goes like this:

S: Iku, Remilia, Sakuya, Yuyuko
A: Patchouli, Reisen, Yukari
B: Tenshi, Marisa, Suika, Youmu, Okuu
B-: Reimu, China
C: Suwako, Komachi, Aya, Sanae
D: Cirno, Alice

Yeah, apparently Sakuya is top-tier. Individual player skill (and their tourney success) certainly would affect how good a character appears. For instance, I believe KamiG (a Marisa player) placed second in this big tourney recently, losing to a Sakuya.

Again, I don't know enough about all this to state which one is more reliable, but I'm putting this here for reference/discussion.

I have to make a callout on this tier list though.  The last graphed tier list that was on Koumakan labeled Yuyuko as being on her own tier above everyone else, with Okuu taking the top of the next tier with a significantly lower score.  This tier list is based on matchups.  The problem here?  Iku's selection of skillcards makes her the most versatile character in the game, and she can as a result fine-tune a deck to counter anything any individual character has.  However, the game only allows for four decks to be made, and most players only use one or two at most.  So realistically, it's wrong to say Iku's anything better than above average, as she won't realistically be able to have a counterpick deck for every character.  Same thing with Patchouli

This also applies to other characters, though less drastically.  For example, Sanae only has one real moveset that works; there are minor variations, but they usually accomplish the same thing.  As a result, she lacks versatility and is considerably lower on the list.  The main factor in her position is really due to the fact that she's the only character without any real combos, but her lack of versatility also affects it.

But yeah, tiers in this game are pretty balanced.  Not sure how they stack to IaMP tiers (which were extremely balanced, with the exception of one or two characters), but it has to be pretty close.

pssh tier lists


Just play who you like. :V

Tell that to Komachi. :V

[ふねん1]

I have to make a callout on this tier list though.  The last graphed tier list that was on Koumakan labeled Yuyuko as being on her own tier above everyone else, with Okuu taking the top of the next tier with a significantly lower score.  This tier list is based on matchups.  The problem here?  Iku's selection of skillcards makes her the most versatile character in the game, and she can as a result fine-tune a deck to counter anything any individual character has.  However, the game only allows for four decks to be made, and most players only use one or two at most.  So realistically, it's wrong to say Iku's anything better than above average, as she won't realistically be able to have a counterpick deck for every character.  Same thing with Patchouli

But yeah, tiers in this game are pretty balanced.  Not sure how they stack to IaMP tiers (which were extremely balanced, with the exception of one or two characters), but it has to be pretty close.

I want to make sure I got your wording right (because I'm a bit tired and can't think), that Urahiso's list was the one based on matchups (due to its chart on Koumakan). It makes sense the way you put it, but that makes me wonder exactly what Tenco's stats consider when ranking characters (the characters by themselves perhaps?).

And I would agree, Hisoutensoku's cast seems balanced enough. Then again, I used to play competitive Smash, a series that throws balance out the window, so almost anything feels balanced compared to that. :V Seeing that recent tourney on sibladeko's channel even drives the "balance" idea home - it had a lot of participants, and it was the truly skillful guys like KamiG and daniel who went all the way.

[8lue Wizard]

makes me wonder exactly what Tenco's stats consider when ranking characters (the characters by themselves perhaps?).

It looks like aggregate data from actual matches. They probably provide software that hooks into the game (I'd imagine it also acts as a front end, to help you connect) and then the results of any matches played through their system get recorded and compiled. The problem with using such a large data base, however, (especially when the characters are relatively even) is that player skill is usually a much greater factor than character balance.

[Esoterica]

but that makes me wonder exactly what Tenco's stats consider when ranking characters (the characters by themselves perhaps?).

It works exactly like that one add-on for SWR with that awesome Iku-hat icon that tracks your wins and losses with each character against certain other characters, and gives a win/loss ratio.  The difference is, Tenco sends the stats back to the server.

So yeah, any derp that hasn't even figured out how to edit his decks yet could download that, get his ass handed to him about 500 times as Suwako, and BAM! she's reportedly bottom tier.

Unrelated, any character requests for combo videos?  I'm ripping stuff off nico right now, so may as well upload some stuff :V

[Saber Nero]

I've only really been looking at the ones Furienity uploaded, they're pretty much what inspired me to play Aya and Alice (the remilia one is seemingly impossible for my nerves). Anything that Furienity hasn't already uploaded, I'd love to take a look at.

[Ryuu]

Tell that to Komachi. :V

I will.

With my fist.

[ふねん1]

It works exactly like that one add-on for SWR with that awesome Iku-hat icon that tracks your wins and losses with each character against certain other characters, and gives a win/loss ratio.  The difference is, Tenco sends the stats back to the server.

So yeah, any derp that hasn't even figured out how to edit his decks yet could download that, get his ass handed to him about 500 times as Suwako, and BAM! she's reportedly bottom tier.

Unrelated, any character requests for combo videos?  I'm ripping stuff off nico right now, so may as well upload some stuff :V

So it sounds similar in concept to a "tourney results" table (whether or not all the data was taken from tournaments). I know the Tenco stats are still there for reference, but I'm not sure I can agree with it being used as an actual tier list. Something like this seems to reflect how difficult a character is to use (as you hinted at with Suwako) and/or how good the players using said characters happen to be, instead of simply how good each character is compared to the others. That's just my take on it. I know tier lists often use tourney results to help judge characters, but from what I've seen such stats aren't the only ones used.

And could I trouble you for a Youmu video? Want to see what else is out there.

[Esoterica]

I've only really been looking at the ones Furienity uploaded

And could I trouble you for a Youmu video? Want to see what else is out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMI21wCvKZw

... :V

I'll see what I can find.  Only one I've grabbed so far is a Cirno one, because I wasn't even aware Cirno had any combos other than her basic ones.

Anything that Furienity hasn't already uploaded, I'd love to take a look at.

Counting the Cirno one I grabbed, then...

Reimu
Marisa
Sakuya
Remilia
Patchouli
Alice
Youmu
Yuyuko
Aya
Reisen
Suika
Yukari
Komachi
Iku
Tenshi
Sanae
Cirno
Meiling
Okuu
Suwako

I'll see what I can dig up.

[Saber Nero]

I've done basic combos with Cirno, she just requires that the enemy be against the wall, since anything else is either...

1. Out of range

Or...

2. Wrong timing



As for the youmu combo vid, I love how she can actually go beyond 10 significant hits in that video. Because I can't seem to get past that damned danmaku shield she keeps putting up. I suck with activating skills, I know.

[Esoterica]

I've done basic combos with Cirno, she just requires that the enemy be against the wall, since anything else is either...

1. Out of range

Or...

2. Wrong timing

Her midscreen and corner BNB are actually the exact same combo; 5AAA 5B 5C 623B/C.  I was just under the impression her moveset didn't allow for much beyond that.

EDIT:
Cirno combo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnvt_djB2ng
Bonus video, AKA "What happens when I start up practice mode BV": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_IUjjJgtWI

[Saber Nero]

I'd forgotten how annoyingly hard it was to use Youmu's skills. I forget if I've ranted about them before or not but they are some of the HARDEST skills to land. Plus the fact that I can seemingly never ever ever get rid of that stupid danmaku shield that keeps activating above all else.

Also, is Iku that fun to play with? I've never actually used her considering SWR turned me off to using her when I had to do her campaign (slow as hell).