Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: lmagus on July 07, 2009, 10:16:08 PM
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So, I'm a newbie at Touhou, been playing for a month and a bit, I'm yet to finish all the games on easy, I keep dying at Yuyuko on PCB, it's the last Windows game for me to finish on easy mode...
I was trying to make something like a beginner guide for what order should I aim to finish the games..
I think the easy list goes like this from easiest to hardest:
IN, PoFV, MoF, EoSD, SA, PCB
Normal mode I think that MoF is the easiest since I've gotten to Kanako twice already... Can anyone make a list ordering the games in normal and maybe even Hard modes? I'm sure it would help other people like me :)
Edit:
(Gpop) Normal Mode:
MoF, IN, PCB, EoSD, SA
(Drake) Hard Mode:
EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF, SA
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MAAAJI? EASY MODE? KIMOI!!!!!
Also: I find PCB to be the easiest one. People keep trying to convince me about IN but, yeah, I might find even EoSD easier than that. MoF seems alright, but I've never played it much. And even REACHING Utsuho is a victory for me... I actually haven't beat her a single time yet (neither Kanako.. I start trying then I "Meh" and gradually lose concentration)
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alot of people have different opinions on whats easiest to hardest in the series. I believe the majority opinion (for normal difficulty) is:
easiest to hardest:
IN,
MoF,
PCB/EoSD (tied, though PCB may be harder if you don't use the input lag patch thingie..are you using it on easy btw? DO IT NOW)
SA (duh, no dispute here).
I personally find IN and MoF to be more difficult than people make it out to be though.
EoSD is probably easier than IN on easy because it completely lacks a stage 6 on easy, which is kinda unfair. Try comparing IN to stage 5 only >=P.
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I think LLS easy may be the easiest of them all, considering NORMAL is as easy as most easy modes. Again though, it lacks a stage 6. :P
I was gonna help, but then I realized that I'm in no way qualified to rank easy modes. >_>
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what is this input lag patch? o_o
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I think LLS easy may be the easiest of them all, considering NORMAL is as easy as most easy modes. Again though, it lacks a stage 6. :P
I was gonna help, but then I realized that I'm in no way qualified to rank easy modes. >_>
If I recall correctly, there IS a stage 6. You just fight Yuka again though.
Now I can't really rank Easy mode since I haven't played them in a LONG time. Maybe I'll get my sister to play all of them and ask what her opinion is.
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No, I mean LLS is like EoSD, in that the game automatically ends on stage 5 with easy mode. In this game, you also lose on any difficulty if you continue before or during stage 6.
Anyway, TC, look at this thread:
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=357.0
Find Phar's post and follow the instructions given from then on. The input lag patch fixes the game to make your movements more precise. It's a godsend, as EoSD and PCB suffer a lot from delayed controls.
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No, I mean LLS is like EoSD, in that the game automatically ends on stage 5 with easy mode. In this game, you also lose on any difficulty if you continue before or during stage 6.
Anyway, TC, look at this thread:
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=357.0
Find Phar's post and follow the instructions given from then on. The input lag patch fixes the game to make your movements more precise. It's a godsend, as EoSD and PCB suffer a lot from delayed controls.
Oh yeah I forgot about that >.<
Well I didn't know that LLS lacked a stage 6 in easy =/. I haven't played it in a while, and I never played Easy mode on it.
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haha just finished PCB on easy with that patch... it's like playing another game! and i thought the lag came from my xbox wireless controller..
anyway... can't anyone make a list of difficulty for normal and hard modes?
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Normal Modes? I can do that.
Btw this is my opinion on normal mode, so I can't really say anything if others argue about it =/
MoF
IN
PCB
EoSD
SA
I'm not counting the LLS games because I don't remember them too clearly. Also, I didn't include PoFV because it really depends on the character you use.
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I went through Hard modes following game order, and I found that the games follow a linear difficulty on Hard. EoSD being the easiest, SA being the hardest. MoF and IN I'm not so sure though, I think MoF is only more difficult because of VoWG.
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Thanks a lot everyone :)
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Not really on topic, just a small advice to help you in PCB.
Unless the screen is clear of bullets, or you want to capture spellcards, always break your borders. This clears the screen, and makes it safe for a good three seconds, while giving you some cherry points to get a border faster.
Or maybe you're like me and lose like 20 bombs in stock every run. When going for a clear, your bombs are additionnal lives, so if you die with 5 bombs in stock you lost 6 lives right there.
This won't really help with Yuyuko, but it should get you the necessary 1 or 2 lives in stock to clear her two last spells.
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yeah i just learned how to properly use bombs today and with the patch for PCB it became much easier... I got to Yuyuko with 4 lives and finished the game with 1 :)
thanks for the advice!
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INPUT LAG PATCH IS CHEATING
I dunno, PCB was my first 1cc (on Normal), but IN was way easier. I'd still put it significantly below SA.
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INPUT LAG PATCH IS CHEATING
x2
Seriously, suck it up wussies.
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It's not cheating at all. Do you honestly believe ZUN intended for there to be input lag or designed the game to accomodate it? This patch simply allows us to play the game with better controls.
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INPUT LAG PATCH IS CHEATING
x2
Seriously, suck it up wussies.
k right. You keep telling yourself that, because apparently, the movement in the games past PCB is cheating, and ZUN designed EoSD and PCB with Input Lag, something that shouldn't even be there, on purpose. Yep.
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well, sincerely, it made me feel like i was playing MoF, which was my first Touhou game.
it felt weird before.
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Intended or not, it's a hack that makes the game easier to play.... Which is cheating. It's cool if you want to use it and find it more entertaining, but don't for a minute think it isn't cheating. If ZUN cared enough to fix the input lag he could've released a patch.
Just like he released a patch for Marisa B ffffff
EDIT: Ok well look at it this way, whenever I download a replay now I'll look at it and go "oh nice dodging, you're pretty awesome but lol I have no idea if you're actually playing it on an easier level than most people so fuck your shit".
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Non-input lag is easier than input lag. People played the game for years with said input lag. It's part of the game, whether intentional or not. Using the patch cheapens everything done in the last couple years, and people will have to note "patched" or "unpatched" for challenges to appreciate how hard it actually is.
I'd love to grab the patch and finally clear PCB Hard without all the BS, but...it wouldn't feel right.
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Intended or not, it's a hack that makes the game easier to play.... Which is cheating. It's cool if you want to use it and find it more entertaining, but don't for a minute think it isn't cheating. If ZUN cared enough to fix the input lag he could've released a patch.
1)ZUN never releases patches for older games, and he's starting not to release any patches at all.
2)CowCaster for IaMP falls under "Cheating", as it makes it easier to play, more entertaining, and is a hack.
3)Everything you can do with the Input Lag patch you can do without. It just requires more luck or the ability to LOOK HALF A SECOND INTO THE FUTURE!
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I edited the first post to be a reference for other users.
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1)ZUN never releases patches for older games, and he's starting not to release any patches at all.
Sucks for you.
2)CowCaster for IaMP falls under "Cheating", as it makes it easier to play, more entertaining, and is a hack.
You catch on fast.
3)Everything you can do with the Input Lag patch you can do without. It just requires more luck or the ability to LOOK HALF A SECOND INTO THE FUTURE!
This is sounding like bitching more than it is evidence against my argument. Using third party programs to make a game easier is cheating, it's not really debatable.
"More luck"... Seriously.
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Intended or not, it's a hack that makes the game easier to play.... Which is cheating. It's cool if you want to use it and find it more entertaining, but don't for a minute think it isn't cheating. If ZUN cared enough to fix the input lag he could've released a patch.
But you see, that argument doesn't really work simply because, no matter how you look at it, the lag is not meant to be part of the game. Fixing it allows it to be played the way that ZUN meant for it to be played. If it made it easier than it was meant to be, then it would be cheating, but it doesn't, so it isn't. It just makes it easier than you're used to it being. That might not go along with your personal idea of how it should be played, which is fine (far be it from me to tell you the 'right' way to play it), but in no way is it cheating.
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But you see, that argument doesn't really work simply because, no matter how you look at it, the lag is not meant to be part of the game. Fixing it allows it to be played the way that ZUN meant for it to be played. If it made it easier than it was meant to be, then it would be cheating, but it doesn't, so it isn't. It just makes it easier than you're used to it being. That might not go along with your personal idea of how it should be played, which is fine (far be it from me to tell you the 'right' way to play it), but in no way is it cheating.
This, seriously.
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hitbox patch is cheating gaiz
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It should be added that not ALL people have the input lag, even without the patch. I know for a fact that I don't have the lag on my old P3 850Mhz. I have no clue about the technical details, but it mostly seems to be modern hardware causing it. In any case, the lag is a bug that's not supposed to be there. Period.
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It should be added that not ALL people have the input lag, even without the patch. I know for a fact that I don't have the lag on my old P3 850Mhz. I have no clue about the technical details, but it mostly seems to be modern hardware causing it. In any case, the lag is a bug that's not supposed to be there. Period.
I'm on a Dell Precision M6300, that has a 2.2GHz Core2 Duo and a Quadro. Never had any problems with that, as far as I know. The only BS I get on PCB is that Stage 4 seems to be bomb-protected or something at times, often to my demise
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The patch really hasn't made any much of a difference to me, I just suddenly seem to do better without anything feeling any different. (Although I have yet to try it with IN Normal...)
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Ok I just tried playing PCB here at work (Pentium 4 1.2Ghz, 1Gb RAM)
and it has absolutely no input lag like it does in my home pc.
weird...
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I lol at this thread real hard.
lmagus: Glad to help you out.
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To get this thread back on topic...I honestly think that EoSD normal is harder than SA normal. SA FEEDS you lives so even if you do screw up on Orin (who isn't that hard) or Utsuho, you'll still be fine. :\
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I think LLS easy may be the easiest of them all, considering NORMAL is as easy as most easy modes. Again though, it lacks a stage 6. :P
I was gonna help, but then I realized that I'm in no way qualified to rank easy modes. >_>
He is asking for a list for normal and hard modes doof >=P.
Intended or not, it's a hack that makes the game easier to play.... Which is cheating. It's cool if you want to use it and find it more entertaining, but don't for a minute think it isn't cheating. If ZUN cared enough to fix the input lag he could've released a patch.
Bad argument, with that logic, it's considered not cheating to use bugged marissa lasers in MoF because Zun never bothered to fix it in a patch. In addition, as people already mentioned, the input lag is only there for some people (albeit most), I have a feeling that it has a habit of not being there should you have an older computer or something like most people did when PCB was new (possibly new versions of directX or direct input screw it up? who knows).
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They have been answered already ;P
And i'm sure it's going to be a long long time, if i ever get to reach Lunatic mode =P
I usualy get bored of games pretty quickly
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I've never noticed any input lag on any computer I've played PCB or EoSD on :unsure:
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MoF, easiest Touhou game ever.
I've pretty much made it to Kanako every single time I play it even if I'm not trying.
Other game I actually have to concentrate a lot to make it to the end boss.
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I think LLS easy may be the easiest of them all, considering NORMAL is as easy as most easy modes. Again though, it lacks a stage 6. :P
I was gonna help, but then I realized that I'm in no way qualified to rank easy modes. >_>
He is asking for a list for normal and hard modes doof >=P.
He was asking for Easy modes back when he made this post...doof =/
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Actually, he was asking for a "proper" order of every single difficulty in every single game, from easiest to hardest.
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Well, for Normal-rank difficulties, I would go MoF as the easiest. I'd probably interchange IN and PCB depending on what characters you use as second and third easiest. ESoD is a slight notch above the previous entries, and SA is definitely the toughest for my style of play.
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To get this thread back on topic...I honestly think that EoSD normal is harder than SA normal. SA FEEDS you lives so even if you do screw up on Orin (who isn't that hard) or Utsuho, you'll still be fine. :\
whaaaaaaaat.
You only get many extra lives in sa if you cap spellcards.. if you bomb them, you get squat.
He was asking for Easy modes back when he made this post...doof =/
Pretty sure he didn't. Notice how my response was before, and I replied for normal, either I read wrong and miraculously I answered his edited question before he did so (right), or he asked for it the whole time.
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hehehe what a mess :p
I had asked for normal / hard modes the whole time, since I had already finished all the games on easy mode ^^
sorry if i was confusing. and the only thing i edited, was to add the order for normal / hard modes =)
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hehehe what a mess :p
I had asked for normal / hard modes the whole time, since I had already finished all the games on easy mode ^^
sorry if i was confusing. and the only thing i edited, was to add the order for normal / hard modes =)
You asked for our opinion on Easy Mode as well in the beginning while you were beating PCB easy.
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Well, this is what I remember.
Ijji Modo:
SA ? PCB > EoSD > Mountain of Faith (the spell card) > MoF > IN
Considering EoSD only has five stages, that's kind of depressing. You probably will look like a ⑨ the first time you fight Sakuya.
Nolmo Modo:
SA > EoSD > PCB > MoF ? IN
PCB Normal is virtually the same thing as PCB Easy. Of course, that also means PCB Easy is virtually the same thing as PCB Normal.
Hald Modo:
SA > EoSD > MoF ? IN > PCB
PCB Hard is actually not that difficult, except for the attacks that are difficult on every level. EoSD Hard isn't that bad, but Revenge of the RNG will take your lives out faster than you'll realize. Yugi makes me ragequit; I hate that Aya 2.0. MoF Hard is worth mentioning mostly for Nitori.
Someone else can do Runateek Modo.
I can't really rate Extra Modo. EoSD Extra is basically You vs. The Hitbox; Flandre is a pathetic boss in a stage filled with cheapmaku. Ran and the stage before her are impossible if you don't know the tricks to her attacks, and fairly trivial otherwise. Mokou would be much more difficult if you couldn't abuse Spell Practice, but is the first one so far to be more difficult than her midboss. Suwako is basically Ran with more boring danmaku and obscenely long lifebars. I like SA Extra, but it virtually forces you to play perfectly through Sanae.
To appease donut as much as I can, the easiest and hardest PC-98 "standard" game is LLS. Any mentions of other, similar games are strictly rumors.
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Then I guess for fun/boredom I'll rate the lunatics and extras. Even if you don't care about PC-98. :P Keep in mind that this is Donut's opinion and is therefore really weird and conflicts with everyone's own lists.
Lunatic modo: SA>EoSD>MS>IN>PCB>LLS>MoF>SoEW
I blame the fact that my computer slows down too much for me to practice SA lunatic, but I can't do anything about it. I've beaten it once, and have never touched it since. EoSD's stages are easy, but the boss attacks are really random and tough. MS has an easy first three stages, but the last 3 are pretty tough and star one of the toughest bosses in the series, plus if you're bad at scoring you only have 7 lives to go through the whole thing. If IN didn't take away two bombs for death bombing it would be near the bottom, but as it is can be pretty nasty. PCB is hard until you practice it to death, then you have a ton of resources. LLS has some cheap parts and gives you only two bombs per life, but you get a ton of lives to compensate. MoF's bombspam makes what is pretty hard easy. SoEW is a fucking joke once you learn how everything works, and you get enough bombs to get past the shit design.
Ekusutora modo: SoEW>phantasm PCB>EoSD>SA>MS>IN>extra PCB>MoF>LLS
SoEW's stage and boss are freaking cheap beyond belief. Phantasm's stage has tough parts plus Yukari who can eat up lives with some attacks. EoSD has cheap parts and annoyingly random boss attacks. SA is really annoying to play through, and has some truly terrible spell cards, MS isn't so bad, but you get almost no lives to go through the whole thing. IN's stage is easy, but Mokou has some nasty spell cards and non-cards here and there. Ran is pretty simple all around, and her stage is easier than phantasm's. MoF's stage is easy, and so is Suwako, but she has some bad clip death-happy attacks from her sixth spell on. LLS is simple once you learn how the stage works, the bosses are moe and adorable fairly simple as long as you don't time anything out, and you get 8 lives to go through with.
That good enough?
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Flandre is a pathetic boss in a stage filled with cheapmaku. Ran and the stage before her are impossible if you don't know the tricks to her attacks, and fairly trivial otherwise. Mokou would be much more difficult if you couldn't abuse Spell Practice, but is the first one so far to be more difficult than her midboss. Suwako is basically Ran with more boring danmaku and obscenely long lifebars. I like SA Extra, but it virtually forces you to play perfectly through Sanae.
*boggle*, it's strange, my opinion is like the exact opposite.. EoSD extra is the LEAST cheap stage of any of the extras imo. There is virtually no memorization required to beating that stage, it's clusterfuck random dodging. The aimed portions are short enough so that you can forget about them until they come and then stream them on the fly even if you're positioned incorrectly. and Flandre is imo one of the coolest bosses ever...Her non cards are pretty lame admittably, but I find her spellcards to be rather innovative and fun compared to most....Ok so 4 of a kind isn't very innovative but it's fun and challenging all the same >=P.
PCB is what I would call "cheapmaku". The whole stage is all memorization as you said admittably, the boss is fun, but to be honest I have a very hard time taking it seriously since you get so many extra lives in the pcb extra stages.
IN is imo the easiest extra boss in the whole series by far.. I beat her ON MY FIRST TRY with lives to spare. (the stage itself took numerous tries though).
MoF's stage is easy, including the midboss, I find the boss to be probably the most boring in the series. SA's extra stage is the hardest by a longshot for me, as is the boss. Stupid genetics of the subconscious is probably the deadliest spellcard in the series for me (some like scarlet meister might be harder to cap, but are vulnerable to bombs, stupid genetics pawns me no matter how many times I bomb). It's kind of embarrasing to watch too.. the gaps between the bullets in genetics are so effing huge, I watch and wonder HTF did I not dodge that.. But somehow it kills me like 2 times every attempt.. blah.
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I don't get the whole "it's not how the creators" intend it to be thing, whenever a game is designed, there has to be some sort of flaw that people will always exploit to their advantage. It's the group of people who play the game a lot, and make judgment to decide what's fair and what's retarded.
Besides, why in the ass would you want to play with broken controls?
May be off-topic a bit, but after hanging out in Normal mode forever in SA, I want to go to hard in... somewhere. Where's a good place to start that is not a total insult to my skills so far but still offer a challenge?
MoF... I tried. I just screwed around and tried not to die and died at Hydro Camouflage.
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I don't get the whole "it's not how the creators" intend it to be thing, whenever a game is designed, there has to be some sort of flaw that people will always exploit to their advantage. It's the group of people who play the game a lot, and make judgment to decide what's fair and what's retarded.
Besides, why in the ass would you want to play with broken controls?
May be off-topic a bit, but after hanging out in Normal mode forever in SA, I want to go to hard in... somewhere. Where's a good place to start that is not a total insult to my skills so far but still offer a challenge?
MoF... I tried. I just screwed around and tried not to die and died at Hydro Camouflage.
I find PCB hard to be quite okay in terms of challenge. But coming from me I feel that might end up being easy for you, I dunno. There's always EoSD. You'll love it until you get to books and from there on everything goes downhill as you cry and cry falling evermore into desperation. (as opposed to SA that slaps you in the face right away, or MoF which is easy-ish throughout the game and then throws some random hard stuff at you evey once in a while (Virtue, S4...))
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just try EOSD or PCB, I'm doing the same =P
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Wait so I can 1CC the 2nd hardest game on normal, but not the 2nd easiest? :'(
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There's always EoSD. You'll love it until you get to books and from there on everything goes downhill as you cry and cry falling evermore into desperation.
I actually find Sakuya to be a fun boss in EoSD.. I don't know why but she's always a morale boost for me. When clearing lunatic I always expect to spend many bombs and a couple lives on her, and I often only use 2 bombs, and maybe a life or something. Then I'll be all gung-ho about how badly remila is gonna get pwnt.. and..well.. she wtfpwns me right with her opener.. *sobs*. Her final spellcard is by far the absolute hardest final spellcard ever for me too.. It's like.. unlike other spellcards, after you die and have 3 bombs again, you can just bombspam your way to victory. But not remila, bombing doesn't really do much except make HER invincible instead of you for so long that you'll find yourself wanting to bomb again before you can even damage her.. blahhh. she's so mean...This is lunatic only though.
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MoF is definitely the easiest for me in Normal Mode. Bombing has always been the very first survival crutch for many players so when a game drip feeds you bombs every couple of seconds AND the build of the scoring system is partly based on bombing incoming bullets, the entire thing becomes a regular activity rather than a spontaneous split second decision between survival and stock reservation.
To its credit though, the bullet patterns are actually pretty difficult and complex on their own so keeping yourself from bombing every other moment is already enough to slightly amp up the challenge. Also, there's a really sudden rise in difficulty curve when Kanako appears (not counting that BS Aya). Bullets are insanely fast and the pattern-based ones are actually pretty hard to figure out on the first try. Most of her attacks are pattern-based though so simple memorization is mostly enough to beat this boss(not counting the final spell card).
I think almost everyone already said this but SA is definitely the hardest on Normal Difficulty (possibly on others as well). When a ton of crap are already flying at you on the very first stage, you know you're in for a world of hurt. :D This game is heaven for graze-happy individuals and hell for everyone else.
EoSD is second hardest for me and there's a slight tie between PCB and IN. I found IN to be a bit easier than PCB though. I'm not sure about everyone else but I found IN's controls to be a bit smoother than PCB and that helped me quite a bit during the game.
You only get many extra lives in sa if you cap spellcards.. if you bomb them, you get squat.
correction:
Even bombing a spellcard will still give you that star fragment. It's a sort of an incentive to encourage players to use bombs often....or rather, enoucarage players to not die needlessly.
IMO though, it's still easier to gain lives in any other game than SA. Scoring in a game almost completely coexists with simply playing the game so you can always gain lives at any given time. Even PCB and IN is easier because all you need to do is to take advantage of the POC which is a rather easy thing to do in those games. In SA however, you are required to do a specific task at very specific points in the game so every screw up is a life fragment lost. To add insult to injury, screwing up means you just died so when you add that one up, every failure takes from you 1 1/5th of your overall lives. That's definitely a worse punishment than any other game. Considering the difficulty of this game, this lives system just adds to the frustration.
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Ok so, I am probably the worst Touhou player in the world and still can't beat anything on easy :'( I've been bouncing between games and I probably should focus on one so I don't feel so failboat (that and uh, the TouhouMother game has the inner EarthBound fangirl in me squealing and taking all my gametime as of late, I die significantly less there at least!)
From reading this, I am assuming IN is where I should focus my efforts at first? Or am I reading the difficulty chart backwards?
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You know, IN easy may be the easiest Touhou out there, but IIRC (been a very long time since I've played it obviously) didn't it still have a large amount of bullets for easy? That may be off-putting even if the patterns are pathetic.
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You know, IN easy may be the easiest Touhou out there, but IIRC (been a very long time since I've played it obviously) didn't it still have a large amount of bullets for easy? That may be off-putting even if the patterns are pathetic.
There was almost no bullets on IN Easy.
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Guess that was normal then. I know that at lunatic IN has more bullets than any other Touhou though.
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I know that at lunatic IN has more bullets than any other Touhou though.
Seriously? I find it one of the easier, but I guess bullet count =/= difficulty in all cases.
I do know the game's still half a joke on Hard, but jumps up for Lunatic...
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You know, IN easy may be the easiest Touhou out there, but IIRC (been a very long time since I've played it obviously) didn't it still have a large amount of bullets for easy? That may be off-putting even if the patterns are pathetic.
There was almost no bullets on IN Easy.
When it was my first shmup I thought there were a lot of bullets... as I concentrated on each one at a time.
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Ok so, I am probably the worst Touhou player in the world and still can't beat anything on easy :'( I've been bouncing between games and I probably should focus on one so I don't feel so failboat (that and uh, the TouhouMother game has the inner EarthBound fangirl in me squealing and taking all my gametime as of late, I die significantly less there at least!)
From reading this, I am assuming IN is where I should focus my efforts at first? Or am I reading the difficulty chart backwards?
IN easy and MoF easy are both pretty easy.
except MoF easy has a very had last boss where IN's last boss is much easier.
So yeah, you might want to start off by playing IN :)
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EOSD has only five stages, so yeah.
PCB is defiantly one of the most hardest on easy.
IN Easy there are almost no bullets and it is easy to death bomb. There is kind of a small jump from easy to normal.
MOF easy Kanako might be a little hard.
Oh yeah if a game is too hard you could just give yourself max lives (as a last resort).
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I know that at lunatic IN has more bullets than any other Touhou though.
Seriously? I find it one of the easier, but I guess bullet count =/= difficulty in all cases.
I do know the game's still half a joke on Hard, but jumps up for Lunatic...
IN represents a major leap from Hard to Lunatic. More so than in the other games even though that rule actually is pretty general.