Author Topic: Shooter games  (Read 172877 times)

Desert

  • Teehee!
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2009, 01:59:00 AM »
I can't really say much on the whole commercial shooter fans disliking doujin shooters debate. Though my guess would be that they carry a company/franchise name and are developed by people who pretty much make them for a living.

Anyways, I haven't played many shmups besides Touhou. Mainly just 3, U.N. Squadrons, R-Type III, and Chariot: Adventure Through the Sky. I've been meaning to try others, but I keep forgetting to try them.

Also, I have run into debates about whether or not 3rd-person on-rails shooters count as real shmups. You know, like Star Fox 64, and Sin and Punishment. Everybody seems to agree that they're shooters, but what exactly is it that keeps them from being real shmups? Most on-rails seem require memorization to truly master them, just like most 2D shmups. The only reason I can come up with is the addition of the Z axis, and that seems like a kinda silly way to determine if something is a shmup or not.
Yup, still lurking.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2009, 02:02:55 AM »
Desert, try out some CAVE shmups. You might like them!

As for games like StarFox, I've never really considered them as 'shmups'. I've always seen shmups as two-dimensional overall, either horizontal or vertical (3D effects notwithstanding). I guess that's all a matter of opinion, though.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2009, 02:10:25 AM »
might also have something to do with the whole 1-shot = death thing. Most 3d shooters don't have such a mechanic. Which is really fundamental for the genre.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2009, 02:13:30 AM »
Or scoring systems that aren't totally superficial, for that matter.

LtC

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2009, 07:24:26 PM »
Do you have any suggestions that are emulateable on pc (I can emulate mushi fine at full frames per second...though it chugs for like 5 seconds very early in stage 3 for some reason, not even when there's a big bullet swarm!).
All CAVE games up to Progear are fully working on MAME. Progress for emulation for the ones after won't be seen on MAME for several years, sadly. PCSX2 has few, also listing some other great shooters:

PCSX2:
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou (CAVE)
Esp.Galuda (Be sure to have latest beta when playing this) (CAVE)
Ibara (CAVE, although it's nothing like other CAVE games)
Gradius V

NOTE: Mushi and DOJ look actually pretty good on PCSX2 compared to what they look on PS2/TV. I was pretty shocked the first time I played them on a PS2, feels and looks way better to play on PC emulated.

NullDC:
Border Down
Under Defeat
Karous
Radilgy
Ikaruga
Psyvariar 2
Zero Gunner 2 (haven't tried emulating this though)
Giga Wing 2

ePSXe:
Soukyugurentai/Terra Diver
Raiden DX
G-Darius

MAME:
Anything by CAVE, Raizing, Takumi, Psikyo
Anything with 'Raiden Fighters' in their name (also Viper Phase 1)
Batsugun, Air Gallet, 19XX, Rayforce......
Darius Gaiden & Darius Gaiden Extra


Speaking of CAVE, there are tons of great cave doujins/clones around on PC: x.x's games, PatriotDark, Stellavanity and lots other that I forgot about right now. Usually these games tend to be a lot more friendly to beginners than the actual arcade games.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2009, 10:51:22 PM »
MAME:
Anything by CAVE, Raizing, Takumi, Psikyo
Anything with 'Raiden Fighters' in their name (also Viper Phase 1)
Batsugun, Air Gallet, 19XX, Rayforce......
Darius Gaiden & Darius Gaiden Extra

Speaking of CAVE, there are tons of great cave doujins/clones around on PC: x.x's games, PatriotDark, Stellavanity and lots other that I forgot about right now. Usually these games tend to be a lot more friendly to beginners than the actual arcade games.

Wait, what? Is Batsugun fully playable in MAME now? I've been waiting years to try it out, but haven't been really keeping track of its progress.


x.x's games have really tiny hitboxes, so they're pretty good choices for easing one into shmups with quicker and more intense pacing. Specifically Blue Wish Resurrection/Plus and Eden's Aegis.

I can't think of any other good Cave clones for the PC. There's the C76 Crimzon Clover trial which is looking to be really good, but I haven't seen it around anywhere.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8060640

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2009, 11:56:05 PM »
Nah, Batsugun is still kind of buggy. I mean, you can play it properly and all, but the sound and graphics are off.

I'm gonna have to try to get ESPGaluda and Ibara to work on my computer. Any advice?

Desert

  • Teehee!
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2009, 02:32:59 AM »
Well I tried Donpachi, and found extremely fun. Now I guess I'll spend another 6 dollar's worth of virtual quarters to get through another CAVE shmup. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation.
Yup, still lurking.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2009, 02:35:15 AM »
Well I tried Donpachi, and found extremely fun. Now I guess I'll spend another 6 dollar's worth of virtual quarters to get through another CAVE shmup. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation.

I strongly recommend DoDonPachi (fuck playing that for score, though), ESP Ra.De., and Progear as well.


Re: Shooter games
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2009, 02:51:52 AM »
DonPachi still had a lot of Toaplan residue, if I remember my STG history. DoDonPachi is where Cave really started coming together on their own. Even though it's a bit dated now, it's still probably considered one of their best.

DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou is where Cave takes your sanity and laughs at you.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2009, 02:56:37 AM »
DonPachi still had a lot of Toaplan residue, if I remember my STG history. DoDonPachi is where Cave really started coming together on their own. Even though it's a bit dated now, it's still probably considered one of their best.

DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou is where Cave takes your sanity and laughs at you.

Dai-Ou-Jou kicks you in the crotch and tells you to stand up to get kicked again. That's why I prefer DEATH LABEL, since at least THAT's short.

DoDonPachi was also the first Cave game where Ikeda's genius started showing in danmaku. There are some other more recent CAVE games that he didn't have a part in, like Ibara and Muchi Muchi Pork, and neither of them look as good in my opinion.

The ESP and Mushihimesama series are the best of what CAVE has to offer if you ask me. I don't include the DoDonPachi series in that because it's a pain in the ass to score well in that series. ;P

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2009, 08:25:13 AM »
Haha, I think your description of Dai Ou Jou is more accurate. :D

Yeah, Ibara, MMP, and Pink Sweets are totally different than Ikeda's style; they let Yagawa out of his cage for them. I haven't spent any time with them, but one day I'd like to try getting into Ibara (I wonder if the port looks better on an emulator...) since people claim it's plain awesome once you do. The amount of information you need to absorb to make sense of the scoring and rank systems is really daunting though, which has been the main detractor for me.


I love ESP Galuda's scoring system; I find that the visual reward you get for doing well is incredibly motivating.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »
Eh. I have very little interest in Ibara since it's basically CAVE's take on Battle Garegga, a game I despise.

(which is ironic since I fucking love Battle Bakraid, which isn't much different)

EDIT: Sweet, my copy of UFO shipped this morning. Maybe I'll see it by the end of the month. :P
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 12:28:14 PM by Matsuri »

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2009, 04:48:43 PM »
I recently discovered that my shitty processor can't run the PS2 emulators perfectly. ;_; (PENTIUM FUCKING 4)

I guess I'll have to stick with ESP Ra. De. and DoDonPachi then. :| It's probably a bad habit to ragequit everytime I die in stage 1/2 of those.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2009, 06:20:49 PM »
Yeah, no. These games aren't Touhou, so they don't hand out extends like a creepy old man gives little kids candy.

The best way to get better at these games is to keep playing, even if you die. Treat it as if you paid a real quarter to play; get your money's worth.

Menorah Jams, Pham

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Re: Shooter games
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2009, 12:36:04 PM »
Why no love for Rez ITT?

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2009, 02:03:35 AM »
I made it to stage 5 in ESP Ra.De. today. My score was way below what it should have been, but damn it, I'm proud of my progress so far. Maybe I can even 1CC it if I try.  :-X

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2009, 02:56:46 AM »
I've been meaning to try Do-don-pachi and Mushihime for about a week now since I've recently played the cave shooter on the DS. IT IS SO MUCH FUN. The only problem is that even though I know it's possible to play Do-don-pachi on MAME, I don't think an intel inside Pentium 4 with 512 gigs of ram can do it.
What system specs will I need to run at least Do-don-pachi?

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2009, 03:06:36 AM »
You have Ketsui Death Label? *jealous*

MAME isn't that hard on your computer. I've played DoDonPachi on my dad's 8-9 year old computer (died just this month, RIP) and it worked just fine. I'd say just give it a whirl and see how it goes.

Mushihimesama's a whole different story though. Your system specs are going to have to be significantly higher to emulate that, or you could take the pricier, legal option of buying the game for the PS2 and using Swap Magic on your local PS2 or importing a Japanese PS2 like I did.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2009, 03:35:10 AM »
You have Ketsui Death Label? *jealous*

MAME isn't that hard on your computer. I've played DoDonPachi on my dad's 8-9 year old computer (died just this month, RIP) and it worked just fine. I'd say just give it a whirl and see how it goes.

Mushihimesama's a whole different story though. Your system specs are going to have to be significantly higher to emulate that, or you could take the pricier, legal option of buying the game for the PS2 and using Swap Magic on your local PS2 or importing a Japanese PS2 like I did.

Ahh... it's too bad when you're only 14 and your only income is your lunch money (plus a few extra bucks since I'm getting hungry a lot right now, even after eating lunch) you can't really buy much. 30 dollars- two 5 dollar bills and twenty singles.

Also, if you aren't against piracy, just use a r4 or cycloDS evolution-it lets you run basically any game on the NDS.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it.

Ionasal kkll Solciel

  • Girl from beyond the 7th Dimension
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2009, 09:27:15 AM »
Why no love for Rez ITT?
Probably because... no, it's on XBox Live...  um...  no, it can be called a rhythm shump...  Hm.  I dunno.  Lack of a Trance Vibrator in the XBox release?

I remember seeing it a while back at a Gamestop.  (The PS2 version, btw.)  I regret not having enough money to get it then, since I haven't seen hide nor tail of a copy since.
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Move eternally forward,
So that we may always be at your side.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2009, 09:03:34 PM »
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it.

Lol. I don't buy NDS games anymore. After buying about 5 DS games for 50 bucks each, I realized that the NDS had very few games that I actually enjoyed, so I bought myself a cycloDS evolution. (Google it) It let's you play any NDS game, regardless of the region. Ketsui Death Label topped Trauma Center 2 for my favorite Nintendo DS game.

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
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Re: Shooter games
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2009, 09:31:47 PM »
I play Ketsui Death label with my R4 as well =P
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2009, 02:05:10 AM »
Trauma Center 2

You have very good taste, my friend.

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2009, 02:06:49 PM »
But I don't really know why people feel this way.
Well, there are several often cited opinions on the matter. Let me play a devil's advocate here.

1. "Survival play is easy; the games don't push you hard enough."
This is true. By standards of most arcade shooters, doujin games, including Touhou (even on Lunatic), are easy to survive due to the enormous amounts of bombs, extends, and panicbomb time they offer. Cases in point: every no-vertical, no-horizontal, and no-movement replay around. Scoreplay largely alleviates this issue since you have to play aggressively to score well.

Ironically, Cave are going the opposite way nowadays: they're gradually adding autobomb as a permanent feature of their recent releases, and Futari Arrange mode has a long-lasting bullet-repelling shield a-la GigaWing.

2. "Stages are boring and drawn-out."
To a large extent, this is true. If you play a couple credits of, say, DoDonPachi, you'll notice that the stages are pretty much a non-stop rush of enemies that come in way more varied orders and waves. There are no long pauses where you can just relax or stand in one spot for several seconds, you are forced to constantly move all around the screen just to not get overwhelmed. SA and UFO are somewhat better than earlier games in this respect.

3. "Scoring systems are obtuse and feel like a tacked-on gimmick."
This is very hard to debate, especially if the game is question is Perfect Cherry Blossom, where score is comprised of a million factors that you need to account for on the fly to score competently. Personally, I consider it a great advantage of Touhou games, because, even if the scoring systems are gimmicky and unintuitive, they at least make sense. The exceptions are Subterranean Animism, which has hilariously broken Lunatic, and the entirety of MoF, which is just mediocre item chaining and killing bosses at just the right time. It's a good thing ZUN has gone for a less-punishing system with UFO, where dying once doesn't fuck you up badly for the rest of the game, as opposed to SA and especially MoF.

I won't touch graphic and music design because it's too subjective to even consider debating. For instance, nintendonut888 hates animated bullet sprites because he finds them distracting. :D

On the other hand, you shouldn't be too concerned with this kind of criticism because every game company gets criticized a lot for their game design choices. I could list a good deal of common qualms with Seibu Kaihatsu's, Cave's, Raizing's, Treasure's, Taito's, Konami's and Psikyo's shmups, and these pretty much constitute the most popular shmup developers ever. Not sure if you know this, but games like Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun get bashed on, like, a daily basis.
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2009, 02:47:26 PM »
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it.

Lol. I don't buy NDS games anymore. After buying about 5 DS games for 50 bucks each, I realized that the NDS had very few games that I actually enjoyed, so I bought myself a cycloDS evolution. (Google it) It let's you play any NDS game, regardless of the region. Ketsui Death Label topped Trauma Center 2 for my favorite Nintendo DS game.

Hey! You're almost like me, only difference is that DS games are expensive where I live. I still plan on buying Strange Journey though. (I wish I had Steal Princess  :'()

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2009, 10:08:24 PM »
Well, I just tried out Dodonpachi and yes, it works perfectly fine on my computer. What to say.... after about 10 minutes of experimenting I figured out that you're supposed to choose to improve your shot and double tap your way through the game. Sometimes the enemies are too cluttered and it's really hard to see the animated bullet patterns. =(

Does anyone else feel bomb delay time in this game? I could have sworn I pressed the bomb button and it didn't go off. I dislike how the game will just randomly kill you- it gives you a pattern to dodge, and then gives you something that goes so fast you have to memorize it. I suppose this game would be a lot more fun if I continue at it though.

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2009, 10:27:04 PM »
If you're experiencing unnatural delays, MAME might be the reason. Try an earlier version, like WolfMAME 0.99. Obviously, don't use screen filtering and Vsync. Keep also in mind that you can't deathbomb in arcade shooters. If you're hit, it's already too late.
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."

nintendonut888

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Re: Shooter games
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2009, 06:57:09 AM »
So I've finally given in and have gotten possession of a number of different shmups. The one I'm most interested in is Dodonpachi though. Do my eyes deceive me when I see it say you get 4 lives? o_O I managed to almost reach the stage 4 boss before continuing, but then started having to continue left and right.

And is that slowdown also there in the original arcade system? Please say it's so, because damn it this computer is recent and shouldn't be slowing down like this. :(

EDIT: ...Is this really what most shmups are like? There's so little variety in the attacks! After a point I cannot tell any difference between the levels because they're the exact same. I'm not going to be like Zengeku and curse out Cave, but...there's a reason I fell in love with Touhou when I had never been interested in shmups before.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 07:46:19 AM by nintendonut888 »
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