Author Topic: struggling with EoSD, normal  (Read 9079 times)

_cf

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struggling with EoSD, normal
« on: June 06, 2011, 10:20:23 PM »
So, I need some advice to finally beat EoSD. I'm playing in Normal, Reimu A, 5 lives and hitbox patch (and feeling bad enough about it, already, damn those EEJI MODO bunny girls).

The best I ever got was to reach Remilia's Red Magic in my last live and take her down to about half of her HP. But then again, this was a completely atypical run. I usually start messing up during Meiling's boss fight (excluding the several times freaking Cirno gets me with Icicle Fall, but then, I usually restart if I die in the second stage), die a couple of times during Patchy's stage, another couple of times to Patchy herself (ironically her non-directional laser seems to cause more deaths than her spellcards) and then Sakuya destroys the little rest of me that reaches her. If I see Remilia after all, I'm usually done by her normal shots.

I know about bombing before dying, about holding shift for focused speed. I kind of need more specific advice for EoSD. Something like "bomb at the start of stage 2", something that I read on the strategy session at touhouwiki and that did wonders to increase my score (84,XXX,XXX btw). Only that right now, I'm caring more about 1 cc'ing the game than about making lots of points, so survival advice is specially welcome.

ふねん1

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 10:39:20 PM »
There's already a topic for asking about specific stuff in the games. Admittedly I think it's title should be changed since anything, not just Spellcards, is fair game, but I digress.

You need to be a bit more specific on what's giving you trouble. You have a replay handy?
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Drake

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 10:46:55 PM »
So, I need some advice to finally beat EoSD. I'm playing in Normal, Reimu A, 5 lives and hitbox patch (and feeling bad enough about it, already, damn those EEJI MODO bunny girls).
Well first of all, a typical 1cc is defined as using default lives; i.e. 3. Don't feel bad about using a hitbox patch, or even playing on Easy. Fuck IoSYS, fuck making fun of easy mode players. It puts people off from the game because everyone sucks to start off with, and it's terrible.
Quote
The best I ever got was to reach Remilia's Red Magic in my last live and take her down to about half of her HP. But then again, this was a completely atypical run.
Your first 1cc will always be an atypical run.
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I usually start messing up during Meiling's boss fight (excluding the several times freaking Cirno gets me with Icicle Fall, but then, I usually restart if I die in the second stage), die a couple of times during Patchy's stage, another couple of times to Patchy herself (ironically her non-directional laser seems to cause more deaths than her spellcards) and then Sakuya destroys the little rest of me that reaches her. If I see Remilia after all, I'm usually done by her normal shots.
This is an issue with your playing. First and foremost, you practice. Second, you watch replays of things to see if you're doing something wrong. Thirdly, you upload one of your replays for us to critique. Please upload a replay.
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Something like "bomb at the start of stage 2", something that I read on the strategy session at touhouwiki and that did wonders to increase my score (84,XXX,XXX btw)
A bomb shortly after the beginning of stage 2 also helps with Power collection, but really you don't need to. In a 1cc case, any score above 60 million (the last extend) is useless.

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 10:51:16 PM »
Practice mode is a wonderful thing. Seriously, spend some time in there. If you play the stages enough, you'll start to learn the patterns and know when you absolutely need to bomb compared to when you can survive it.

and hitbox patch (and feeling bad enough about it, already, damn those EEJI MODO bunny girls).
Sounds more like an older version of the retexture patch. I think 0.2 had that for easy mode, but 0.3 got rid of it. I had it for the longest time, then got rid of it because I'd rather play with what ZUN made. (plus, on my old Windows 98, it lagged it game down occasionally by a few frames probably because of higher quality, I think)

You can play without the retexture patch but with the hitbox patch. There should be a download somewhere on the projects thread if I remember. Hitbox patch is not a bad idea when you're starting out and trying to get a 1cc. After a while, you'll know where your hitbox is and could probably get rid of the patch.

So, you've had problems with stage 4. Most people (if not everyone) do have trouble with that part. Stage 4 is when the games get suddenly much more difficult. The book spam (or whatever those things are) right before the midboss, can be pretty difficult. You might try using a bomb in there if you feel that you're getting cornered. At least with Patchy, since you're using ReimuA, she sends out her easier spell cards. (compared to MarisaA ;_;) Spending a lot of time in practice mode for this stage would be a great advantage. If you can get through it (since practice in EoSD gives out the default 3 lives), you should be well prepared for a 1cc. Along with some practice of Sakuya and Remilia.

Also, if you haven't already, you should use the vsync patch. Since EoSD produces massive input lag, vsync will correct this. You can get it here. Courtesy of Drake. You'll need th06e.exe to be renamed to 東方紅魔郷.exe (or, if you aren't in a Japanese locale or not using applocale, ?????g????.exe (quote is part of the name))

Fake edit: Wow, I took a while to type this. Two replies already. >_>
I figured out how to play midi in games with a different device on Win7 ^^
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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 11:03:14 PM »
I would suggest that you don't play with 5 starting lives. It will leave you with a disatisfactory run that you only won because you used more resources than you should have had. Of course if all you are concerned about is 1cc'ing then by all means play with 5 lives but I still recommend against it. For the sake of developing your skills, as well as less amounts of resources calls for more cautious and skilled play.

With that out of the way i'll join Funen in requesting a replay as its pretty hard to give out advice for everything in the game. Use practice mode a lot. That will let you grow familiarity with the stages. You can then figure out what things you have a hard time with - and then improve on those or go ask about them in the thread Funen also mentioned.

Personally i recommend playing practice without bombs unless you have something specific you want to capture and as such don't want to game over before you get to it. Playing without bombs is good for building up your dodging skill. However, playing exclusively without bombs in practice will leave your bombing skills pretty much untrained. Something that I am a good example of.  :V

It puts people off from the game because everyone sucks to start off with

I have seen people including myself sit around on low difficulties for eternities. I must really warn against this. It will surprise you how much you can learn from playing higher difficulties than you are used to. That's my experience. Play UFO Lunatic, suddenly UFO Hard is really easy, play Ketsui's Tsuujou loop. Suddenly the regular loop is easier. I don't hope that Iosys' video causes people to not play Touhou but I hope it encourages them to forget about easy mode and just learn to play Normal mode. You need to push yourself to see results. Easy mode can hardly accomplish this.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 11:06:20 PM by Zengeku »

Drake

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 11:23:29 PM »
Have a fresh replay. I tried to emulate a lower-level player than I am, but one that can definitely 1cc Normal. For the most part it just shows 'what you should try', not 'where you should bomb'. I don't bomb here neeearly as often as you should.
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14122

There are a few mistakes though, such as Stage 6 where I forget the fairy approaching from the right, and the end of Stage 5 where you shouldn't be bombing but instead such tapping once to the right like the waves before it.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 01:02:28 AM »
I'll also throw a demo replay out here for you.  I'm not very good at the whole "Bomb before you die" thing, so I died a lot more than I should have, but the methodology is still there.  Take a look if you'd like.

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14124

And yeah, like everyone said, don't worry about the damn rabbits.  Iirc it's just referring to IN being ridiculously easy on easy mode anyway (though I do recommend Normal+ for EoSD because Easy doesn't let you into stage 6).  5 starting lives is fine for a first clear, I still use max lives for my first 1ccs of a difficulty myself.  Just switch over to defaults once you have your first clear.  Hitbox patch is fine as well, and I highly recommend using it as a beginner.  Whether you get rid of it later on is up to you.  The general consensus is drop it once you're used to where it is, but personally I just never got around to doing it so I still use it.  It's not really advantageous or anything once you're used to your hitbox anyway, so I don't see any reason to drop it myself.  Oh right, and like Zengeku said, try the harder difficulties too!  If you're working on a normal clear, play on hard, if you're working on a hard clear, play on lunatic, if you're working on a lunatic clear... Play Ketsui and DoDonPachi!  But really, working with faster and/or denser bullets really helps when you go back down to whatever you normally play.

Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 10:15:21 AM »
Play Ketsui and DoDonPachi!  But really, working with faster and/or denser bullets really helps when you go back down to whatever you normally play.

I'll just add that from a survival perspective those games isn't much harder than Touhou Lunatic. The 2nd loop of those games though... is good practice.

I would also add another piece of advice. When playing Touhou in Practice mode, try to aim for perfect runs of the stages. It may take a long while to pull something like that off but its satisfying to do and you'll really build up some consistency with it. For most of my perfect runs I end up at a 1-miss/perfect consistency with the boss in question because I have practiced it so much. It gives you a goal to work towards and thus, motivation to practice and you'll learn a lot from it.

_cf

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 04:58:25 PM »
Thanks for all the tips and encouraging comments, folks. I'll be sure to download and watch the posted replays and upload one of the mine later tonight.

_cf

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 06:19:09 AM »
Well, so I ended up finishing the game with Reimu A, after all. This thread's kind advice helped a lot.

So, three replays uploaded: They were played about in sequence. Between 2 and 3 I cooled my head a bit playing Hisoutensoku.

Derp: http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14162
Herp: http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14163
the win: http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14164

These show pretty much how I play these days: badly :P Still, I'm proud of some dodges I pulled at the winning game :P

Thanks again, guys ^^

Drake

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »


The main thing I really have to praise you for is your bombing habits. Brilliant stuff.

The main thing I really have to scold you for is your streaming habits. They are nonexistent. You cannot stream, and you must learn. Many, many, many of your mistakes were entirely due to your inability to stream. I will post this and list them as I watch again.

Where you weren't streaming:
Rumia's first noncard
Night Bird
Demarcation?
*Going to note that you did the entire first portion of Stage 3 backwards
Meiling's second noncard
Every enemy in stage 4 that fires those three-prong attacks which is pretty much the whole stage
*Why did you not bomb the green books
Everything after Koakuma with the lasers etc
Patchy's first noncard
Patchy's second noncard
The Blue-Red-Green wave during stage 5
Misdirection oh god why
The spam after midboss Sakuya has an aimed portion to it
*You do not do Clock Corpse at the top of the screen, only Luna Clock
Stage 6 ring fairies

You need to learn this, man.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:24:57 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 02:13:54 PM »
I saw your run and i'm pretty impressed with it to be honest. I don't like you using more than default lives but I'll let it slide without a scolding since it would most certainly have been a default-lives 1cc if you didn't make those beginners mistakes. You have reason to be proud of it.

You make some pretty good dodges in many occasions where I pretty much just expected you to either die or bomb. But you didn't. You managed to find a way out and that was impressive. The majority of your mistakes where easily correctable beginner-mistakes where you just need to know what to do and you'll never die there again.

As Drake also said, good bombing.

Ghaleon

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 01:30:26 AM »
Well first of all, a typical 1cc is defined as using default lives; i.e. 3. Don't feel bad about using a hitbox patch, or even playing on Easy. Fuck IoSYS, fuck making fun of easy mode players. It puts people off from the game because everyone sucks to start off with, and it's terrible.

I would agree. Except for EoSD where easy = no stage 6, which is lame and awful and bad. There's not really any point to try and 1cc easy when he can already reach remi on normal.

_cf

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 08:06:32 PM »
By now I reduced my starting lives to the normal 3 and I'm trying a bona fide 1cc. I think my greatest problem right now is keeping the calm and remembering to bomb, etc. I have too more failed replays to upload later tonight, called respectively "PATCHEEE" and "SAKUYAAA" out of rage from where I suddenly forgot how to play at them and sacrificed promising runs.

And yeah, about the kimoi girls, I'm not averse of playing in easy. But my main motivation to play videogames is seeing their ending so I merrily won IN with all teams on easy, laughing all the way at those who tease EEJI MODO players. Same thing with PoFV. But I don't think you can see the endings of the other games playing on Easy, right?

Also, a couple of pertinent doubts:

1) Do extra stages have endings, with pictures and such?

2) Which game should I try after I get confortable with EoSD?

Drake

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 08:22:41 PM »
But I don't think you can see the endings of the other games playing on Easy, right?
Yes, the only one you can't is EoSD.
Do extra stages have endings, with pictures and such?
Nope.
Which game should I try after I get confortable with EoSD?
PCB.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2011, 10:14:16 PM »
(If you're not streaming correctly then I don't think I am either; I do most of the "streaming" parts the same as you)

I 1cc'd the game for the second time just earlier today, and I have to say you're a lot better at this than me; you're way more controlled. I get distracted too easily and panic too much which often causes me to run into things.

Good luck with the 3 life 1cc which I have yet to complete and only just found out that it's the proper way to do it now ^^. *megaegodrop*



RegalStar

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 11:32:32 PM »
Yes, the only one you can't is EoSD.

MoF too. You have to beat that one on normal to see the good ending.

_cf

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Re: struggling with EoSD, normal
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2011, 08:00:45 AM »
I'll just post my first bona-fide 1cc replay here. I have a couple of other replays to share, but the Touhou derp thread (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6057.0.html) is just perfect for them.

1cc with three starting lives: http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=14342