Touhou Smash Bros Project (Development & info thread)

[Saijee]

Third!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9kpvm69Ia8&index=65&list=PLaDd9276h4ZDo3RgOFGfcRbw7mUTScQ4S

[Sagus]

It looks fantastic.

The only complaint I have is the length of the attack. 18 seconds feels like an eternity in a fighting game.... I think 10 seconds tops would be more acceptable.

Then again, it IS a single use attack...

How do you use these attacks, btw? Is it through a "smash ball" or are there other requirements to unleash it?

[Saijee]

Just some SSB3ds SSBB observations:
Wario = 17sec
G & W = 15sec
ZSS = 16sec
Little Mac 15sec
Bowser 13sec
Fox 13sec
Falco 13sec
Pikachu 14sec
Charizard 17sec
Pacman 14sec
Sonic 13sec
Snake [SSBB] = 24sec

To do a final Smash you just press L+B

[Colticide]

Looking at the time for the smash attacks in SSB and then Sakuya's I think it feels longer (despite yes being 18 seconds) is an illusion from the music and character actions.

Most of the attacks Saijee mentioned have the music still playing and character movement and actions are either faster or stay the same but flashy, it feels like your making progress. Snakes honestly never felt like 24 seconds, never bothered to count either, but your constantly attacking at a consistent rate and doesn't feel slowed down, that's the illusion. On the other hand FS attacks like Fox and Falco's feels slower then snakes since the landmaster is slow to attack, that's just how I felt anyway.

With sakuya you stop all action, music, it just feels long due to the effects used for her FS.

[Peachems]

Hey there! I read throughout the entire topic and wanted to say that this is really great looking project so far.
I may be a bit late on the topic, but if I could just throw it in still as a thought,

I'd love to see Orin appear as a playable character. I feel that she's the most underappreciated key plot character from SA (being a stage 5 even), often being overshadowed by Utsuho, Yuugi or Koishi and hardly ever featured as a cool boss in fanprojects.
And that while she has so much cool stuff to work with! Zombie fairies, evil spirits, flaming chariot wheels, a cat form, a mountain of needles, and best of all, a wheelbarrow. Personally I think a wheelbarrow rushing move like Komachi's boat spellcards in the touhou fighters would be just great.
Maybe I have stirred some minds with these thoughts, maybe not and that's fine. I'm sure everything is bound to be awesome in the end after all!

[ILikeBulletZ]

Hey there! I read throughout the entire topic and wanted to say that this is really great looking project so far.
I may be a bit late on the topic, but if I could just throw it in still as a thought,

I'd love to see Orin appear as a playable character. I feel that she's the most underappreciated key plot character from SA (being a stage 5 even), often being overshadowed by Utsuho, Yuugi or Koishi and hardly ever featured as a cool boss in fanprojects.
And that while she has so much cool stuff to work with! Zombie fairies, evil spirits, flaming chariot wheels, a cat form, a mountain of needles, and best of all, a wheelbarrow. Personally I think a wheelbarrow rushing move like Komachi's boat spellcards in the touhou fighters would be just great.
Maybe I have stirred some minds with these thoughts, maybe not and that's fine. I'm sure everything is bound to be awesome in the end after all!

I am not even a Orin fanatic but this post convinced me.

She really has a lot of attacks that could be worked with!...


Oh yeah BTW I have also read the entire thread and I don't have much to say except that this is looking freaking AWESOME people! (I actually already did comment via Youtube and even subscribed don't worry).

[Prime32]

On those new VFX...

While they definitely look cool, the shockwaves seem excessively large for basic jabs and tilts (and it could get confusing if characters like Youmu or Momiji have ranged attacks that look like shockwaves). Also their smoothness clashes with the rather polygonal blade trails.
The hitflashes for melee attacks are fine, but for projectiles they look like they're disappearing before they make contact. The aerial throws also look kind of strange, since the Sakuyas are far outside the hitflash for most of the time it's on the screen (and the collision flash at 1:53 might look better if it was just in front of the thrower).

[Sagus]

Just some SSB3ds SSBB observations:
Wario = 17sec
G & W = 15sec
ZSS = 16sec
Little Mac 15sec
Bowser 13sec
Fox 13sec
Falco 13sec
Pikachu 14sec
Charizard 17sec
Pacman 14sec
Sonic 13sec
Snake [SSBB] = 24sec

Yeah, but none of those attacks involves the other players being stuck and unable to do anything at all for their duration. Some of these are just transfromations too, which kinda have to have a longer duration so that some damage can actually be done.

[Colticide]

Yeah, but none of those attacks involves the other players being stuck and unable to do anything at all for their duration. Some of these are just transfromations too, which kinda have to have a longer duration so that some damage can actually be done.

True, and all of those attacks can miss where as stopping time you are pretty much guaranteed to hit them. But not sure if being able to always hit them but can only use it once per match is really a good way to go about it, if Sakuya's is like this then all the other characters need to be able to do the same for balance purposes.

[Saijee]

I'd like to pose the argument that they do involve the player not being able to do anything, only that it is masked with the illusion that they can do something. Almost all of the mentioned final smashes are nearly guaranteed KO that don't allow the user to take any damage.

Sakuya's final smash actually isn't a guaranteed hit, not even if you  do her final smash immediately after an up-throw. On the contrary, if the player is paying attention to the positioning of all the knives, they can use that time to formulate an escape plan, just like in EoSD.

On top of that, Sakuya's FS has no kill potential on it's own.

[Colticide]

To be honest its a bit to really notice that, it looked like they all homed in on the character, even the up special which I had assumed would go straight up but didn't. Its tough to know something does one thing when all you have is a few minute video to go off of, I mean your making this game so you know all there is to know how it work. Unless you said something I'd have thought  you can't dodge it, maybe in your next FS video you could show how it works but also show how to beat it like you did with sakuyas spell cards.

[Agent Emerald]

Sakuya's final smash actually isn't a guaranteed hit, not even if you  do her final smash immediately after an up-throw. On the contrary, if the player is paying attention to the positioning of all the knives, they can use that time to formulate an escape plan, just like in EoSD.

Couldn't Sakuya hit the player with a move with decent hitstun so escape could be nigh impossible, at the cost of a few seconds to launch knives?

[Sagus]

I'd like to pose the argument that they do involve the player not being able to do anything, only that it is masked with the illusion that they can do something. Almost all of the mentioned final smashes are nearly guaranteed KO that don't allow the user to take any damage.

Well, I don't play competitively so I can't comment on that. For many casual players they are certainly not guaranteed KO's =P

Still, it's not the guaranteed KO or something like that that I was commenting on; it's the "put your controller down and go drink something" factor of having to wait 18 seconds having nothing to do but stare at your enemy place knives all around. I just think it's a pretty big pause in gameplay. And imagine if there's more than one Sakuya fighting, and all of them pull off their final smash. Worst case scenario (4 Sakuyas) there was a whole minute in the match where only one of the characters could move around at all.

[Saijee]

@ Agent Emerald, no because you are only allowed to use projectiles during the final smash.
@ Colticide, I want to do a free for all but its hard to get both of my bros in the same spot at the same time.
@Well I don't really know much about how casual players play, but competitive players are always focused on the battle no matter what the status their character is in.  Similarly doing just that during Sakuya's final smash could make it or break it for you if you use those 18 seconds correctly planning your escape.

[Colticide]

Yeah that's understandable, are you playing the part of both players in your videos?

[Agent Emerald]

Yeah that's understandable, are you playing the part of both players in your videos?

I think so. I remember him making a comment about how hard it is to do certain commands between two controllers.

[Sagus]

Having now seen the Final Smash on an actual match, I changed my mind about it's length. Seems fine to me now.

The whole thing looks really great with all the effects. You are doing a really outstanding job.

Are you going to focus on making all the initial playable characters (there are six right) before starting to work on stages?

[Saijee]

I nearly forgot another little detail almost as important as special effects I need to add to Sakuya. The Stop Motion-esque animations.

This appears for the faces of Brawl characters, it also appears in the faces AND hands of SSB3DS characters.

Basically the idea is that things like blinking and different hands come in like interchangeable parts for home made stop motion.

Though, tonight I did manage to sperate Sakuya from the template maiden, so that's good.

Shade is working on some stages right now. So they will be co-developed with the confirmed characters (4 not 6).

[Colticide]

Hey Saijee quick question if I may. I was watching the last video and was wondering how you make the SFX anmations? Are they a whole image that plays one the trigger activates or is it more complicated then that? Same thing for the FS clock image as well.

[Saijee]

No frame-by-frame animation:

Usually I do it this way:
A shrinking Star
A growing ring
2-4 Random flying sparks

[Colticide]

So is that your engine making those move I assume?

[Saijee]

spin, move, scale and fade.

[Prime32]

So... in the fight video Sakuya charges a Final Smash in midair then falls, causing her magic circle to stay in midair and move out of view of the camera. And without the magic circle it's not particularly clear what she's doing. Could the circle be adjusted so that it stays attached to Sakuya as she moves?

Also, did you get my PM?

[Saijee]

Yes.

Yes, still thinking about it though.

[audishin]

Just wondering, do you plan on having anybody help the project in terms of design or are you just exclusively looking for feedback and opinions on threads and whatnot?

Smash is one of my favorite competitive games and I've been attentively following your videos. However, I've noticed many peculiarities. I know you are designing this have a different design and metagame than Smash, especially with the blocking and projectile mechanics, but are you going to include stuff like Tech'ing or Smash/Block DI? Will you include mechanics like Jump-Cancelled Smash/B moves, and Jump-Cancelling Block? How do you feel about a weight mechanic affecting how characters flinch to projectiles (making specialized characters like sword based Youmu a more viable design option)? I think not having to L-cancel and manually wavedash is a completely viable design choice, but it might mean there are some other concerns that I'm not sure you feel like they need to be address, such as the presence of multiple auto-combos, even aerial ones with sakuya's floating, and that Up-Spellcard probably being a broken edgeguarding tool that another Sakuya can do nothing against. I know a game is meant to be fun than taking months of practice to play, but I feel like there way too many easy combos and edgeguarding, and I'm not sure if every character being able to do everything is a good thing.

Are you planning to have a greater depth in terms of character mechanics (which also means a higher learning difficulty curve, not necessarily a good thing), good examples would be like what Project M did: Ike being able to jump out of his Side-B allowing for incredible approach options for his sluggish movespeed and attacks turning him into one of the quickest characters if used right, Bowser being centered on superarmor, Squirtle with hydroplaning, Wolf's gameplay being central on spacing and juggling, etc.

I could write something 10x longer on why your game is FUCKING AWESOME so I hope that sentiment gets across. Other than that, I love your game and I'm really excited to see what kind of ideas you will pull out for other characters.

*Edited* Actually, I just started watching your Smash 4 video. I feel like many of what I'm asking has been completely conscious decisions on your part. If that's the case, I'm still interested in your response just so I can get an idea of what you are aiming for. What I'm most excited about this game is what kind of abilities you will end up giving different characters, since Touhou has a ridiculous lore and Sakuya already having a float, teleport and time stop, I can only imagine what Reimu or other characters will end up having.
Maybe Sakuya just looks imbalanced because all I've seen are just demonstration videos on a motionless AI. I might be completely wrong on that part lol

[Saijee]

Let me just make a list of special mechanics in this game (off the top of my head):

Straight out of Smash:
Tilt DI
Smash DI
Tech
Wall Jump Tech
Jump out of Shield
Wave Dash
Spike
Sour Spot
Moon Walk
Dash Dance

Simplified Smash mechanics:
Wave Dash (1 button)
L-Cancle (Hold L/R during landing lag of an aerial and the animation will speed up significantly, alternatively the landing lag can be immediately ended upon preforming any tilt, jump or wave-dash, but not a smash or a grab.)
C-Smash (If you are holding the C-Stick in a direction, and keep it held down, even in mid-animation, your maiden will try to do that smash attack as soon as she is free to do another animation)
Shield Break (ther is no shield meter so you can not break shields with normal attacks, but a "Clicked" smash will break shields)
Shield>Counter Attack (You can use any attack out of your "shield exit" animation, meaning it is very effective for countering non multi-hit attacks)
Character Dependent Animation-Cancel (All characters will have 1 move that can be canceled by another move, for Sakuya her side-b will immediately end if you hit down-b, but it comes at the cost of a short period where you cannot use any specials)
Air Dodge (technical air-dodge from melee, though a brawl like air dodge can be done with a neutral stick, but it's not a dodge, it is an air-block)

New Mechanics:
Perpetual Tilt (after doing one tilt or landing from an aerial, you will continue to automatically do tilts in whatever direction you have the stick held until you let go)
Perpetual Smash (Similar to perpetual tilt but with the C-Stick)
Aerial-double-jump-Cancel (If you land an air attack, you can cancel it with a jump)
Nair-Cancle: if you land a Nair, you can cancel it with any other aerial.
Pummel Block: time the L/R or A right when you are pummeled and you won't take damage
Skating (you move one direction while alternating the way you turn)

Mechanics From Smash that were cut:

Shield Shuffle (no orb)
Grab Escape (replaced with pummel block, trying to avoid mechanics that ask the player to button mash)
J-J-Jab (tapping the A button will not make you do your jab loop, you must hold it down)

[Sparrow Song]

Wow this all sounds and looks amazing.  I really hope this game gets finished someday!  I'm no good at thinking fighting moves or the like, but playing Mystia (hopefully she makes it in) in a Smash type game is like a dream-come-true for me and I'm sure I'll enjoy it!

[Saijee]

I would also like to see a playable Mystia, though, what I would like doesn't exactly have a maximal dictation over the final roster. Sooo, we'll see.

[Saijee]

Alright guys! I'm done with finals, which means I can finally get back to resuming the dev show!

Also some pretty great news, someone offered to help make the graphic design for the indiegogo campaign banners. On a related note, Guuchama has agreed to offer her services as an illustrator to create 3 cute pictures, one for Reimu, one for Sakuya and one for Tenshi.  Her facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/MoyashiHazTooMuchFreeTime

[Colticide]

You know I asked twice about the banners but was ignored. I know I'm no professional but a response would have been nice.