Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: leo412 on October 26, 2013, 03:36:05 AM
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New to Touhou series, just started yesterday playing Double Dealing Characters.
First stage: :3 Not as hard as others said~ No problem~
Second stage: :) Still manageable, lost one life
Third stage: ??? WTF
And What does Sakuya spell card do? It just changed the screen colour?
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Yeah, most bullet hell shoot em up games are incredibly difficult when you first start playing. My first attempts at Ten Desires ended at Stage 3 :D
It also depends on what difficulty you're playing on. If you're new to the genre, then you should probably stick to easy or normal for obvious reasons. Double Dealing Character does get difficult on stage 3 so its normal to struggle there. Sakuya's bombs have different effects depending on which shot type you use (A or B):
Sakuya A's bomb autocollects all items on screen, clears bullets around you and gives you a barrier that will shield you from a hit. Get hit and it'll clear the screen of bullets and not cost you a life. Don't get hit for its duration (10 seconds) and you'll get half of a bomb refunded.
Sakuya B's bomb (based on "changed the screen colour I'm guessing you're using this character, the hardest character to use for survival by the way :V) inverts screen colours, freezes time and turns all bullets on screen into point items.
Neither of these bombs do any damage though. Most people see Reimu A, Sakuya A and Marisa B as the easiest characters to use, the first 2 for their high damage and homing shot and the latter for her bomb, which converts bullets into items which can then be autocollected for life and bomb shards.
Since it's a hard game, don't be put off by lots of failures but don't force yourself to play either. Not everyone has the patience to succeed in this game. If you need help with playing the game, then ask in the thread this link takes you too. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,14197.0.html) Have fun! And don't go insane. :D
PS: Anyone else reading this, please add anything I might have missed :P
EDIT: This thread is probably also very useful, covers some essential techniques that you may or may not know already. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8241.0.html)
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Welcome to bullet hell, one of the most hardcore niche genres around. Don't get surprised about getting demolished when you're just starting, it requires quite a bit of skill. But with some patience and desire to learn, it's quite possible to get much better at it. It won't be easy, but these games sure are fun when you're getting better at them.
That said, DDC may be a bit too complicated a game to get started. Too many gimmicks in attacks (ESPECIALLY stage 5). You may want to consider getting a simpler game to start with, like Mountain of Faith or Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. Imperishable Night might be good too, I find it has the easiest Easy Mode.
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You have to practice. A lot.
Unless you have natural talents, there's no way around it.
Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game.
Sadly, the people that complain about the difficulty are the same people that regard practicing as a chore.
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Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game.
this isn't really possible unless somebody gives you a score file
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This reminds me back when I first started Touhou, playing and semi sucking at Imperishable Night Easy, having one life and like 3 bombs to beat Kaguya. But then I went and practiced and beat Mokou despite only having played on easy at the time. Then I cranked it up to normal for all games, then hard, and then "some" lunatic.
Some patterns are more punishing than others. Some people also better at dodging certain patterns than others. Me? I'm abysmal at Keine's General Headquarter's crisis and Lunatic Legend of Gensokyo.
tl;dr Read other people's strategies and hints, watch videos, and practice a lot. I used to be pretty crappy too but now I'm a hard mode and (in some games) a lunatic player.
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Like one of our friends said, start with MOF or IN first. However, I would suggest that you start with Normal stage immediately rather than playing with Easy. What might kills you the most is the bullets raining down and the lack of deathbomb (or bombing as of general). Try playing Hard or Lunatic mode once in a while and you will notice that Normal is relatively easier.
On the side-note, I'm still mediocre at Touhou fighting games.
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Like with anything else, play the living hell out of the game. Skill and experience will only come with time, so the more time you commit to the game, the better you'll become. Like those above me said, DDC might be a tad too gimmicky to be a first game, so I would suggest starting with Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil as its lack of hitbox will teach you to "feel" your hitbox instead of having to look for it all the time; and the difficulty is not off the charts.
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This reminds me back when I first started Touhou, playing and semi sucking at Imperishable Night Easy, having one life and like 3 bombs to beat Kaguya. But then I went and practiced and beat Mokou despite only having played on easy at the time.
I salute you.
Don't be afraid to lose. All those videos you see of people getting No Miss No Bomb No Border Break No Trance No Items Final Destsination are of people who have failed a thousand times for each stage they clear.
Don't be afraid to try higher difficulties, and don't be afraid to use continues. Everything else, from knowing your hitbox to knowing whether bombing or dying is more beneficial (hint - usually the first one) will come with practice and with time, but only if you are not afraid to lose.
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Me, right now: working on Mountain of Faith lunatic no bombs and generally getting more consistent at Double Spoiler
Me, a year ago: working on Mountain of Faith extra no death no bomb (and just clearing lunatic for the first time!) and unable to clear all the scenes in Double Spoiler
Me, 2 years ago: trying out and barely making it through IN lunatic with max lives and unable to get beyond Stage 3 in Double Spoiler
Me, when I first started out: THIS GAME IS IMPOSSIBLE EASY MODE IS NOT EASY AFDSFADSFDASFD
The only way to get better is to keep playing. Become more familiar with the patterns, both the common ones that show up all the time and the specific ones to each game, stage and boss. Get comfortable with the movement speeds and make the character an extension of you, so that you aren't thinking about the inputs to move the character but simply moving the character.
Most importantly, don't be afraid to use every resource at your disposal. Continues for unlocking stages? Do it. (I did it with UFO lunatic, and though I still haven't cleared it's mostly for lack of trying, as I can definitely do it off the practice runs of each stage-without continue-spamming to get through the later stages, I would be nowhere near clearing).
Bombs? YES! The game gives them to you for a reason. If you get overwhelmed, use a bomb. When you run out, try to dodge. Save no bomb challenges for when you're more familiar with the game and can dodge its patterns, or stage practice where there's nothing to lose for trying to dodge.
Higher difficulties, patches to increase difficulty or gamespeed? If you feel up for it, yes! Trying to play slightly above your skill level definitely helps! I started out with IN with score files already unlocked and the first big things I did were all geared towards spell practice-which did include unlocking a few last spells to unlock last words and such. Was I hopelessly outmatched? Yes. Was it still fun? Yes, yes it was, and it was a valuable learning experience.
Above all though, try not to get too discouraged or offput by difficulty spikes.
You have to practice. A lot. True!
Unless you have natural talents, there's no way around it. False! You can just play for fun and not care about results, and those with natural talents for the games still have to hone them with practice!
Use stage practice, watch replays of people better than you, realize your mistakes after you make them. True! This is helpful, thogh I find people around your skill level to be a bit more helpful than watching, say, Jaimers LNB DDC for how to handle certain parts.
Do not spend credits until you are knowledgeable of every part of the game. Horrible idea. Just play the game and get a feel for it. Besides, all you're putting in is time, and honestly, is that really such a big deal? (also, when I cleared Subterranean Animism on lunatic it was the first run I had that didn't die before midboss Parsee-I was flying blind through all of Stage 3-6 and cleared via knowing when to bomb and when to try to dodge)
Short version: Yes, these games are hard. But they're very rewarding if you put a little time into them. Welcome to the community :)
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been lurking the thread since yesterday and actually first wanted to post "yes" and b done with it, but I think I'll post something more serious.
yes, they're supposed to be hard. no they're not that hard to clear once you are familiar with them. as I have no name said, you get better as you practice and get a feel for the various things that happen in the shmup and things you have to utilize. a few people have already said that you will need to practice a lot - there is no way around it. Of course, some people learn faster than others, that's what we call nautral talent. that doesn't mean you don't have to practice. that'd be a silly assumption. it's what IHNN said. even if you have shittons of talons, you still have to practice a lot to put them into a run.
watch replays. this has also been said, but it's important, especially if you're having trouble with a certain part of the game. or (if you ever got into it) scoring strats. I don't want to imagine how it feels to make a scoring route all on your own, especially for more complicated games like PCB. oh right, resources. use them. bombspamming is not a bad habit. if you want to clear a game for the first time, don't think about how awesome it would be to capture that one tough spellcard. drop a bomb on it. you can always work on improving from there. I think this is something very important that a lot of people disregard. I have seen it that people discourage the use of bombs, which is dumb. why would you limit them? use them to the fullest. if you happen to run out of bombs, you can still always try to dodge as best as you can.
another thing is: use stage practice - all the time. seriously. there is no need to play the first 4 stages to practice one section in stage 5. that'd be tedious and is something you do in arcades. fuck that. use the tools you have efficiently. don't ponder. just fucking do it. feel free to creditfeed the game to unlock the stages. that's what everyone does and it's fine. personally, I suspect why ZUN implemented the multi-credit system in the first place.
One last thing: being in a community helps tremendously. You can ask here for advice - better players will usually have it. You have easy access to replays to watch, as well as people you might look up and catch up to. use the community to your advantage. it can only have advantages.
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FOOLS! YOU'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE WITHOUT MASTERING THE ART OF DEATHBOMBING!!
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You need to be naturally talented. Just ask Sakurei.
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As with just about anything, improvement of skill comes from practice and study. In Touhou's case, I recommend spamming continues to unlock stages for Stage Practice and Spell Card Practice (where available), studying replays of better players, studying replays of your screw-ups to look for your strengths and weaknesses, and sharing such replays with this community to get some pointers.
Overall, it's just about doing it and doing it and doing it.
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FOOLS! YOU'LL NEVER GET ANYWHERE WITHOUT MASTERING THE ART OF DEATHBOMBING!!
If you're playing for survival, that is. Some games give penalty for deathbombing. Look at me, I don't 1cc DDC extra yet just because I'm not very good at proper bombing T_T
DDC is meant to be a simple game, yet it has one of the worst stage 5 gimmicks in entire Touhou >:( Most characters are also tricky to use. The patterns are also pretty hard, but the amount of supplies you can get in this game compensates that. EoSD is probably the best game to start since it has no particular gimmick and the difficulty is right at the middle. It doesn't show your hitbox so it teaches you how to "feel" your hitbox. IN and TD are the easiest Touhou shmups, so you might also want to start with them. SA is brutal, but grazing is more rewarding here. For character, homing Reimu is obviously the most beginner-friendly. If you use SakuyaA for DDC though, toggle shift so that most of the knifes won't stuck at the same small fry.
For the final words, as everyone says here, Touhou is all about lots of practice, watching replays, knowing your limits and... patience. I hope I'm helping enough and good luck in the wonderful world of bullet hell :)
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DDC is meant to be a simple game, yet it has one of the worst stage 5 gimmicks in entire Touhou >:(
Objectively false. :colbert:
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Hey, DDC Stage 5 is cool. It's just a different challenge to overcome, and even though it's entirely fair it does kind of make DDC a not-so-good choice for a first Touhou game. Personally, I'd recommend PCB since
that was my first Touhou game it's very straightforward about how you dodge things and get extra lives, and every so often the game will surprise you by giving you a free bomb out of nowhere.
I struggled with Easy Mode too for a while, but trying to beat it over and over didn't really get me much progress, so I switched to Normal mode. Even though it was clear I wasn't going to beat that either, it was a good idea- after doing that a while, I switched back to Easy Mode, and I got a lot farther than I used to. You will too, so do stuff like that.
(I also throw myself into PoFV Lunatic here and there to train myself on raw dodging, but please don't do that too eagerly. It's probably unhealthy.)
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I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.
And PoFV Lunatic is perfectly healthy. You should quit everything else and just play that instead.
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And PoFV Lunatic is perfectly healthy. You should quit everything else and just play that instead.
Zil-sama~
You're so pushy~
And PoDD is objectively superior to PoFV in my opinion :derp:
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Yes, it's supposed to be hard. It's the genre of the game!
Here's some personal experience from a newbie:
I've only been actively playing Touhou for about five months. I have a few 1cc's.... on easy. It took lots and lots of practice and effort to get them.
Started out with IN and TD, looking back, yes, those were easy but I learned the patterns and plugged away at them. Spellcard practice helped a ton. Same with DDC which is REALLY fun to play, in my opinion, including Seija's gimmick.
UFO and SA were worth it to finally complete. STAGE PRACTICE STAGE PRACTICE STAGE PRACTICE!!!!!! Orin and Shou were the most difficult bosses I've beaten yet.
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I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.
Honestly, I think it doesn't really matter which is your first Touhou game as long as it doesn't differ too much from the general gameplay. I was stupid enough to have GFW as my first Touhou :V
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I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.
I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.
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I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.
I lol'd. Btw it seems ZUN started recycling stuffs. Seiga and Seija are both potrayed as wicked. Stage 1 has Cirno as midboss just like in PCB. DDC stage 4 seems to be a rehash of PCB stage 4 (sky as location, instruments as boss). DDC also uses 2 locations from previous games, Misty Lake and Bamboo Forest of Lost.
PS: Goddamn it, I'm going off-topic :derp:
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I should start counting how many times people mix up Seiga and Seija.
I admit to not noticing that mistake. Now what do I win for being honest?
Still surprised about how many people started with easy and struggled as much as I did with normal :wat:. I'm sure I didn't spend more than a month going for my first 1cc (even if it was TD).
Also surprised that no one even mentioned the importance of actually enjoying playing the game. Seems like if you're forcing yourself to play to get better, you should just take a break or find something you do enjoy. I personally dislike using stage practice and just keep going for 1ccs instead. Only resorted to stage practice very occasionally and only for specific things like IN Stage 5's opening fairy. Also did it for my first 2 1ccs. Ignoring stage practice might not be the best thing to do if you're struggling but it's probably better than not enjoying playing.
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I don't see what's wrong with starting out in DDC. Unless you're really just saying Seiga is so bad she ruins the whole game.
Nah, it's more that I'm not really convinced somebody who's still getting used to the amount of bullets onscreen as early as Stage 3 needs to get used to swapping their controls on the fly right away too.
And yeah, Jovial's right. Just take the advice that you'll enjoy taking. (Kinda hoped that was obvious.)
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As most have confirmed, the difficulty is most definitely up there. This isn't something you just jump into and immediately dominate. I didn't really try to play for score or style until I started getting really good...all of my runs before that were just playing and enjoying the game and the music. I was motivated by the music and character interactions to get through the games/get better. Certain moments are amazing and the music gives it that extra edge that makes experiences memorable, like UFO stage 5, PCB's stage 4, and stage 2 in MoF, just to point out some. When I first got into Touhou, I was playing to find out when Necrofantasia played...so out of all the songs and extra boss themes to pick from, I ended up picking the only phantasm boss. Go figure. Yet I was that much more motivated to beat Ran and even unlock Phantasm.
You decide whether or not to watch replays. I personally wouldn't watch any extra boss footage where the player got past a non-spellcard/spellcard that I had not yet. I'd only watch footage of things that I've done, just because I want to experience them on my own without prior knowledge. (Which meant that Ultimate Buddhist, Honest Man's Death, Maze of Love and a few others just outright wrecked me.) When I was able to do Lunatic-level playthroughs, I started really watching replays.
Play a lot. Then some more. Switch games a lot. Practice random stages just for records/fun. Pick your favorite shottype and go into spell practice. Find what you like and do it.
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As far as Stage Practice goes, I sometimes use it but more often don't. It largely depends on if I find myself having a mental block on the stage in the context of a full run (see: PCB stage 3 and MoF stage 4, both of which I can now handle with relative ease - though Alice still gets me with Foggy London from time to time and I've never gotten to Stage 4 of MoF on Normal in one credit)
That said, if you find yourself dying a lot on a given stage, it's well worth it to continue and unlock the stage for stage practice.
As far as playing for score versus not playing for score, I partially disagree. EoSD, PoFV and MoF in particular, as well as the PC98 games, tie extends to score. If you don't know how to score effectively, you won't get very far. PCB is a bit more relaxed, but the Cherry system is a bit at odds with surviving at times since the most reliable way to gain border points is to stick to unfocused shooting (but at the same time it's the best way to safely collect point items, which is how you get extends).
(And since when is TD easy? I had a 1cc in SA before I even got to stage 6 of TD)
((Oh, and I have issues with both Seiga and Seija)
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I lol'd. Btw it seems ZUN started recycling stuffs. Seiga and Seija are both potrayed as wicked. Stage 1 has Cirno as midboss just like in PCB. DDC stage 4 seems to be a rehash of PCB stage 4 (sky as location, instruments as boss). DDC also uses 2 locations from previous games, Misty Lake and Bamboo Forest of Lost.
PS: Goddamn it, I'm going off-topic :derp:
ZUN is also more aware of the fanbase and it's loyalty and attachment to older characters and locations. ZUN's said he wants to link 7~9 with 10~12 better too; as atm they were basically different arcs with abandoned characters like PC-98, with a couple of exceptions with the options from 11.
Besides; there can only be so many locations in Gensokyo. Why add ANOTHER forest just for a Werewolf? He recycled locations and characters in 13 too; like Kogasa; Nue and Yuyuko.
And honestly considering Cirno's been in 6; 7; 9; 12.3 and 12.8 as the main character; she's kinda a main character by this point and it shouldn't be a shock she showed up in 14.
As for Touhou being hard; it's suposed to be, it's in the genre; but for the genre it's actually on the easier side. Personally; I'm bad too; and can't clear DDC; so I would suggest the games I have cleared as entry points, which would be 8 [Imperishable Night], 10 [Mountain of Faith] and 13 [Ten Desires]
Also as a general rule of thumb, Reimu shottypes are the easiest to clear the game with; either due to a good mixture of spread and focused attacks; or homing attacks,; mixed with good bombs and the slightly smaller hitbox she has in most games. [Ironically I didn't clear IN with the Reimu shot type though. I've cleared it with Marise+Alice and Sakuya+Remilia... because I'm awful at fighting the Marisa boss.]
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As far as playing for score versus not playing for score, I partially disagree. EoSD, PoFV and MoF in particular, as well as the PC98 games, tie extends to score. If you don't know how to score effectively, you won't get very far.
Isn't it the other way though? In 6 and 10 you will get all of the extends very easily, since the required score is so low you will almost always get 60m or 150m whatever you do. However in other games you actually need to focus on gathering items.
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I know when I was starting out I was failing to get the 150 million extend in MoF, and the 60 million extend usually came somewhere during Remilia :V
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One thing that helped me get better in Touhou was to challenge myself and try new things. When I was a normal mode player, I thought Hard mode was impossible and never actually wanted to move up. But after a friend convinced me to try hard mode, I realized that it wasn't so bad, and that it was very approachable. Of course, play at your own pace. There's nothing wrong with the lower difficulties if that's what you're comfortable with.
Also. Don't fall into the trap of expecting true consistency on everything all the time. It's a bad habit I always take up and causes me to stop having fun while I play. We're human. We'll make stupid mistakes and have bad days. Sadly, this mentality is what caused a friend of mine to quit Touhou. He was actually pretty decent...
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Alright, finally beat Double Dealing Characters on the second try with Reimu A.
But with 1 continues...
Basically in the second play, manage to play through stage 4 without loss of live, and GOD damn stage 5, the enemies start shooting like boss!
And the boss... OMG the inverted control, have to spam bomb.
Finally loss all the life in the place where stage 6 boss make you bigger...
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New to Touhou series, just started yesterday playing Double Dealing Characters.
Did you start playing DDC as your first game? If so, you don't need to play the PC-98 games first though, but I'd recommend you play atleast the first Windows game first, which is Embodiment of Scarlet Devil.
First stage: :3 Not as hard as others said~ No problem~
Second stage: :) Still manageable, lost one life
Third stage: ??? WTF
Play on Normal a few times if you want. Then go straight to Hard/Lunatic.
Frankly in my first Touho game, which was EoSD. I improved on Hard, then after 1 cc in Hard, went on to Lunatic.
After that every succeeding game in the series was pretty easy on the first few levels in Hard and Lunatic. But I still will die in the games. I just try my hardest to get 1 cc.
If you think you can handle the stages on Hard and/or Lunatic, the problem only lies in the Bosses' spell card once you get the hang of it. It just requires some memory and prediction.
When I first play a new Touhou game now, I always start on Hard.
Only Touhou game I could never finish is the first one ever, which is Highly Responsive to Prayers. It's not like the Touhou you know, that's why it's hard.
If you want to have an easier play through. Use Reimu A or B. Either one's fine, since probably her unique feature, her small hitbox is what makes her rather easy to use, and can score some good Graze points.
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Play on Normal a few times if you want. Then go straight to Hard/Lunatic.
Ha haaa, I don't know about this advice. If you're somebody who's dead-set on doing well or improving at every game they play, then maybe the advice is for you, but personally I don't see a problem sticking to Normal for a while. Or Easy, really, though I still hold that Easy generally doesn't present enough of a challenge for me to enjoy it anymore. If you're having fun playing through whatever mode you're playing on, go ahead and stick with it. If you feel like you're not improving enough to clear whichever mode you're on, challenge the next difficulty up for a while. You'll get better at the game and maybe start doing better on your usual difficulty.
Of course, this advice is more for if you want to have fun at whatever skill level you're at, and don't really care as much about how quickly you improve. It all depends on how you like to play. As somebody who sticks to Normal or Hard Mode most of the time (and has rarely actually reached any Stage 5 in Hard Mode) I can vouch that sticking with easier modes does not take away from the fun. Not until you get comfortable enough that a particular difficulty starts being too easy, at least, but I don't see a reason to rush that process.
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yep it is got to stage 2 on my first ten desires run (yesterday) now after 12 hours of non stop playing I can (sometimes) clear a normal mode ten desires run
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Ha haaa, I don't know about this advice. If you're somebody who's dead-set on doing well or improving at every game they play, then maybe the advice is for you, but personally I don't see a problem sticking to Normal for a while. Or Easy, really, though I still hold that Easy generally doesn't present enough of a challenge for me to enjoy it anymore.
Actually, what I meant to say was just improve a bit. Frankly playing some time even on just hard up until stage 3, which is usually the stage what most new "experienced"(new, but played quite a bit) players doesn't lose a single life, will improve them a lot. Stage 4 is likely the stage where'd they die often. Just play a bit on a harder difficulty, and then go back to normal, you'll see you've improved.
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Alright, finally beat Double Dealing Characters on the second try with Reimu A.
But with 1 continues...
Basically in the second play, manage to play through stage 4 without loss of live, and GOD damn stage 5, the enemies start shooting like boss!
And the boss... OMG the inverted control, have to spam bomb.
Finally loss all the life in the place where stage 6 boss make you bigger...
That's not bad at all for someone who just started playing! Just remember to practice (especially the stages that give you trouble) and you should be on your way to a good ending soon. Don't be scared to experiment playing different characters or playing in different ways. Also, don't worry too much about the difficulty level, just raise it when you feel ready. Having fun should come first.
For stage 5 when things get dense don't be too scared to waste your bombs because if you time it right you can get enough stuff back to make it worth it. Inverted controls aren't as scary as you think. Stay focused! For the first two attacks like that I suggest only moving left and right so there are less chances of getting confused with the controls. That way you only have to pay attention dodging in one direction and it's not as tough. I hope that made sense but it works for me.
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well i also thought that the game was too hard even for the first levels (then realized that my first game was Subterranean animism :V and that it was a hard one), i died with parsee on her first spellcard..., after some time i was able to beat it on easy. there i realized how difficult bullet games are (or maybe it was because of being SA...)
then i tried playing Imperishable night on easy and i was able to pass through it swiftly, but now i'm still trying to win on normal without using continues (marisa or reimu, arrgh!!!). play in normal after clearing easy without continues and keep practicing! practice start helps a lot to improve too by challenging yourself
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Alright, finally beat Double Dealing Characters on the second try with Reimu A.
But with 1 continues...
Basically in the second play, manage to play through stage 4 without loss of live, and GOD damn stage 5, the enemies start shooting like boss!
And the boss... OMG the inverted control, have to spam bomb.
Finally loss all the life in the place where stage 6 boss make you bigger...
...wait a sec... is this normal mode because if so... you are pretty dang good for a first timer -__-"
I have been playing Touhou for years but took me 4-5 tries or so before I can achieve what you just stated (on normal mode)
...and considering Touhou 14 is one of the harder Touhou as well... dang, you are good :V
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I used to think Touhou was hard, but then I played CAVE games. :3
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I used to think Touhou was hard, but then I played nuki-games. :3
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I used to think Touhou was hard, but then I played CAVE games. :3
But Touhou is harder...
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But Touhou is harder...
Personally I find Touhou a ton easier.
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Am I hearing talk about how Touhou is Too Easy? Because obviously Touhou is Harder.
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Personally I find Touhou a ton easier.
poast you're scores
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People say to start with MoF and IN uz they are the easiest (though i only think IN is easy with reimu+yukari team)... I actually advise againt that since they can lead to some bad habits.
iN can condition you into deathbombing which is a bad habit since that is t a reliable strategy in many touhou games, and MoF is just bombs ahoy in general. pCB Sakuya also is this, dont do.
Personally I started with EoSD and i think it is a good choice. Its difficulty is pretty mid-tier, there are no bad habits to develop, and the lack of visible hitbox is actually a GOOD thing to get used to early since watching your hitbox is baaad.
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I hate to say it, but if I recommended that someone start with EoSD, I would also recommend they use the re-texture patch (sorry ZUN).
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What would the re-texture patch do in terms of difficulty? Maybe it's just me, but I have no problem with the old sprites or the lack of visible hitbox. Heck, sometimes I act better in EoSD than other games because the graphics force you to instinctively learn your hitbox.
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The re-texture pack doesn't add a hitbox if you don't want one; it just polishes up the art a bit. Not really sure it significantly affects gameplay difficulty, to be honest (if my own replays are any testament anyway >_>).
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EoSD isn't pretty enough for a first game. If you're going in already willing to play a bunch then whatever, but if we're talking about introductions I think starting with EoSD is a terrible idea.
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Start with PoDD lunatic. It teaches you all you have to know. As well as what you might hate about Touhou in the future. Perfect entry point.
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Ultimately there is no one perfect beginner's game for Touhou that wraps up all the positive and challenging aspects of the series into a nice package. I think the best strategy is to make suggestions based on what you know about the person's ability in other, even dissimilar, video games.
Start with PoDD lunatic.
Or this.
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I think EoSD is a fine starter game. Retexture patch isn't very good in my opinion since it makes bullets harder to read, but maybe that is just me.
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EoSD was my first game, and I am now an addict. I don't see the problem.
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Iunno why there needs to be a "beginner game." If you're truly interested in Touhou, you'll probably be playing all of them, so naturally you'd try them all and see which ones click. That said, EoSD may be a good place to begin since it is relatively "basic" in terms of patterns and strategy needed outside the bosses.
Either that or HRtP, which is the first and therefore best game in all respects, including learning the mechanics you'll need in future games.
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Either that or HRtP, which is the first and therefore best game in all respects, including learning the mechanics you'll need in future games.
(http://i.imgur.com/ISQ19sz.png)
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Not playing EoSD first is like not watching the first episode first.
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That would be so true if Touhou Project were a TV series.
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But most people play for the story
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Either that or HRtP, which is the first and therefore best game in all respects, including learning the mechanics you'll need in future games.
(http://i.imgur.com/ISQ19sz.png)
First Installment Wins (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FirstInstallmentWins) obviously.
But most people play for the story
this.
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Many people get into Touhou for the story and setting. I'm not sure you can argue that people play the games for story, especially since most avid players skip the cutscenes. Because of that I don't think people are really bound to following them in order.
And besides, if that were their goal, they would be starting with HRtP, as I said.
:dwialpha:
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Even among ZUN's works, the canonicity of the first five Touhou games produced for the PC-98 platform is uncertain
And, I didn't even know pc98 games existed until 1 year into Touhou.
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Didn't you hear? ZUN pretty much confirmed PC-98 as canon in his last major interview. He said there were contradictions, but the events did happen.
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Interesting.
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Yuuka is canonically a sleepyhead. So cute!
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Chiyuri is canonly a mischievous dickhead. So cute!
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But most people play for the story
Are you sure about that? Because I'm not sure that's the case for "most" people. But OK, let me clarify. The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series. I think it's maybe a little off to insist people ought to play the games in the order they were made for narrative reasons.
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No, not insisting. But I'd tell them to play EoSD first if I were asked.
The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series.
iirc from my secondary days that Marisa met Patchouli in EoSD so they could go on an underground yuri adventure in th11? So I'd assume EoSD came first before th11.
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The story of EoSD is stand-alone, and could have happened at any point in the series.
we need to know the SDM cast before event of Th7,7.5,8,10.5,11,12.3 could happens. since in those game Reimu and others already known them and that couldn't be possible without EoSD.
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Well, order of character appearances aside, the game was a single arc was my own clumsy way of saying it could have happened at any point. Although I'm honestly not sure I've seen "for the story" come up a lot as a reason for playing Touhou. Maybe a poll would shed light on this.
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New to Touhou series, just started yesterday playing Double Dealing Characters.
First stage: :3 Not as hard as others said~ No problem~
Second stage: :) Still manageable, lost one life
Third stage: ??? WTF
And What does Sakuya spell card do? It just changed the screen colour?
Hello OP, and welcome to playing Touhou, and having your first few licks of the shmup genre!
Yeah, for some time, I've been meaning to help this fellow out, and other budding players, as I've been busy with real-life related stuff the past couple days. Now, I can appropriately start out, right now, in giving the best advice I can to the new guys at this game, as I am able to, at this moment! I am not one of the best, as I still got a lot to learn, and as it stands right now, I certainly don't hold a candle, or a leg to stand on, for that matter, against the usual big-shots here and elsewhere (My greatest respect for them all), as I'm still working on my skills to reach to where I can see what they see on an everyday basis (I've had a slight taste of what they see, when I first 1cc'ed PoFV of "Legendary" Mode (Lunatic), a first in any Touhou game I've played, and I got to tell you, it was awesome! I was like, "So...This is what they see everyday..." mildly speaking, let's put it that way. It was the best feeling ever! I want to keep going to the mountaintops with them, more and more! I may never get to be as good as some of the heavy-hitters here and elsewhere, but it ain't gonna stop me from working on putting my best foot forward! In-fact, I feel more encouraged than ever before!), but I'll give it my best shot at answering the OP, and try to give the best personal input as I can, and I'll do my best to be as clear as I can with my advice, in an effort to assist the OP, and anyone else out there who are also new to the Touhou genre, and the shmup genre in-general. I'll speak, based on my own experience, so far:
I know this sounds like rubbish advice, but really, the best way to get really good at the game(s), and improving as a shmup player, is to just keep playing at the games, have that drive to get really good at it, and eventually, at some point in time, you'll actually start to get better at the game(s), and the funny part is, you probably won't notice it, you'll simply be beating the games just like that.
For you, the best way that I'd recommend, since it worked out for me, is to try out Easy mode in the Touhou game(s), and see how far you can get. Don't worry, contrary to what is said about Easy mode, there is no shame in playing Easy mode, especially if you're a beginner. I wouldn't let those sorts of Easy mode mockery discussions discourage you. With that said, after trying Easy mode out, I would play on Normal as soon as possible (Personally, when I first started, I would play Normal mode all the time, and I simply just kept at it until results came in for me), and often as well, as it'll help in getting you to be generally better at the game(s), as you'll start to get a better feel for the patterns that are being thrown around you, how the game works, improve your ability to dodge, your reaction time, and also, you do have bombs to use, and they're there for a reason. If you must use them, just use them if you must! You even have deathbombing on most of the games, so use those too, if you must! Again, they're there for a reason! Then, after that, you can start to try out the higher difficulties (I'll explain them briefly later on in this post), and begin making your way up top!
Anyhow, moving on, I would go about practicing that part on practice mode (Again, there's practice mode for a reason. The very fact ZUN gave practice mode on his games is pretty darn good and generous, considering shmups, I believe), like, for example: Let's say you're having trouble with, as you say, Stage 3 of Double Dealing Character. I would go to practice mode, and go practice that stage with whatever character I like the most/Good at playing as/etc., and just keep going at it until you start to get a general feel for the stage, and you begin to start minimising the errors you're making, making you less likely to miss in those trouble parts in-general, and also work to memorise those specific parts as well. For this particular game, Double Dealing Character, it is one of three games on the entire official Touhou games collection that have this feature called Spell Practice (Ten Desires and Imperishable Night are the other two, as far as I would know and understand) where you can practice certain Spell Cards that you have encountered throughout however far you've gotten at the game so. I would use that to my advantage, and work at playing those certain Spell Cards I have trouble with over and over, until I begin to get a feel for them, and understand how that certain Spell Card works, thus leading you to fail the card less often to where, you'll actually be more likely to pass through it the next time you play the actual campaign, without bombing, or even losing a life, thus, allowing you get further on through the game, and a little closer to your first 1cc and beyond! :)
Also, hope you don't take this the wrong way, but... While Double Dealing Character isn't terribly hard to do, I wouldn't recommend (Okay, truthfully, I don't know, to be honest) starting out with that game, especially for beginners and first-timers, as later on in the game, there will be lots of nasty little, unconventional gimmicks that will surprise you, that's the main thing, and I'm not quite sure if that would be something beginners and first-timers would be up to. I mean, I'm not mocking anyone, it's just... Hmm, I don't know. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if even the best had trouble with those particular gimmicks, back when they first encountered it. The game(s) that I would recommend starting out with are Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (EoSD, I started out with this game!), Perfect Cherry Blossom (PCB, possibly my most favourite one of them all! Love playing this one a lot!), Imperishable Night (IN, my second favourite! Lots of characters you can play as!), Mountain of Faith (MoF, very fun and simple game!), and Ten Desires (TD, you can play as a lot of characters, four actually, very cool character designs in that one, and the scenery in it is very nice, and the difficulty isn't too bad, either, I think, so you can play at this one as well!). I would recommend starting out with EoSD personally, for story reasons, and you can actually understand what's going on story-wise, though in actuality, you can start out with whatever you feel most comfortable with. While these are still certainly far from "easy," I would venture to say they're more "tamed," so to speak, compared to others, if I do say so myself. Again, this is speaking from my own experience, so it's just my own input at this. That, and I do play those particular ones a lot, along with PoFV, which I'll talk about next paragraph, so that can be why. Take no offence, as I didn't intend one bit on that. But seriously, for the OP and other new budding players, this is what I'd personally recommend, overall. Take your pick.
Right, while I'm still on that topic, don't forget the PC-98 games, as well! Those are a lot of fun to play, as well, though HRtP will be a pretty tough one, since that's a different game altogether. While, yes, it is a Touhou game obviously, it's not a shmup game, as one would expect. It's an interesting one to play, indeed we can say. Now, Story of Eastern Wonderland (SoEW), Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream (PoDD), Lotus Land Story (LLS), and Mystic Square (MS) are tons of fun to play, not that Highly Responsive to Prayers (HRtP) isn't fun to play, it's just very, very different from the other Touhou games, but anyhow, yeah, go try those out as well! They aren't too bad, I don't think!
Again, don't take this the wrong way, but as it stands for you, Phantasmagoria of Flower View (PoFV), Shoot the Bullet (StB), Subterranean Animism (SA), Undefined Fantastic Object (UFO), Double Spoiler (DS), Great Fairy Wars (GFW) and Double Dealing Character (DDC) might not be the best game(s) for you to start out with, in my opinion, for that, while I like these games a lot, especially PoFV (Tons of fun to play! That being said, while it's not very hard to play at all, in my opinion, it is very different from the conventional shmup games, so it stands to point that part out. Ditto with StB and DS, they're both different as well, and, well, let's just say they have their moments, and Great Fairy Wars... Yeah, that one certainly has it's moments alright, let's just say) and UFO (Very cool game! Love the ideas behind it, and all! That, and I simply love playing as Sanae, I like her as a character, not just simply for shot types! Any game with Sanae in it, especially as a playable character, in my opinion, is, alone, worth getting dang good at, but that's my opinion anyway, and it's not relevant here, so... excuse me on that slight rant :blush: Hey, don't look at me like that, honest, lol), I'll admit, these particular ones all do demand more effort than usual. This is even generally noted, not just by me, but from many others out there, in particular; thus, I don't know if I would personally recommend these for the new and budding players, unless you've already got experience in other shmup games beforehand or so. I mean, you can give them a shot, if that's what you want, then by all means, but... Hmm, I don't know.
Time-wise, I would give it my best effort to put in at least thirty minutes, up to an hour or two on average each day (I put those times up, particularly for those with busy time schedules, like what I have right now) because, as what I said earlier, the best way to practice is to just keep playing at the games! Really, it is, and if you can, if you have days, where you can afford more time than what I had recommended, then go for more time to be spent playing on Touhou! Many allegedly say, and believe, unfortunately (leading many away from the game(s) in-general, and thus, go back to being dreamers, resulting in an even smaller pool of dedicated Touhou players) that they can't do the game(s), when really, they can, if they know how to play and practice every day at it correctly, as opposed to just saying, "Oh man, this game's too hard. There's no way I can get good at this," or something around those lines. I used to be that way, back when I first started playing Touhou about four years ago or so (Before I had that disastrous two year hiatus I didn't mean to do, which went from sometime late 2011 to Aug. 2013. Now, I got back since, and I've been progressing at the games rather nicely (I got back in, just like that. I hope that such a disastrous hiatus will never happen again, and I'll make good sure on that!), even though there are times I've goofed up on playing everyday, for real-life related reasons. I know, I know, crappy reason, and not even a good one, either.) where I thought as you did, OP and those that are new too.
In-fact, this may surprise you, but I will dare venture to say even the very best started out like that, too, where they were also new to the game(s), and didn't know what to do, either, and they simply just worked at it over and over, having many failures back when they were trying to go down that old, beaten path, and, before they knew it, they gained their wings, and learned how to fly. You, too, can also gain your wings, and learn how to fly, but it takes practice and effort to do so, if you want to eventually get to playing on Hard mode (I personally call it "Heroic" mode. Yes, yes, I know, Halo difficulty names lol, but you gotta admit, I would aptly refer to these difficulties as this), Lunatic (I call it "Legendary" mode. Certainly, this needs not another intro, as I have explained my reasoning just earlier), and the Extra stages (I call it "Mythic" stage. If you're curious, I name my replays as this, depending on what difficulty I play in, and what character did I use to beat the game and difficulty at, and whatnot; for example, let's say I beat PCB "Heroic Mode (Hard) w/ Marisa A shot-type, then I name my replay "HeroicMA"), that said, I'll be submitting scores/replays on MotK under the name, The Kid)! Really, there's no better way to say it, just keep playing and playing, honest! We all began as something else.
Ah, right, I forgot to mention this, but another good one, is to watch videos/replays of those who have already passed the game(s) long ago; otherwise, those who have been down that path before, and have made it out! Study them, see and analyse what they are doing, try to think if aspects of their technique can work best for you, try them out, and see what you can get out of it! Heck, if you can, try to even contact them personally, and see what they have to say on the matter, for your situation! I'm certain they'll be happy to help out. I never tried that before (I'm people-shy, lol, especially towards those better than I) so... I think it would work. Just don't ask them silly things, or something like, "OMG, you are so good! Let me shine your shoes!111" or "Congratulations! You don't need an umbrella anymore!111" or whatever, as, while I'm sure they appreciate that, I think it's better to ask serious questions, like how to get better at so-and-so, for that matter (Otherwise, what I am saying is it wouldn't be wise to get them to waste their time, in that case. Trust me, I know. They would actually prefer to be referred to as another fellow player. I gotta tell you, you'd be surprised how humble and helpful they will be, if you're serious about it, and approach them in an intelligent manner, as someone who is eager to get better at the games, as opposed to what I'd call "dreamers." You'll be surprised by how much you can learn from them!), but that's just me, anyway. But yeah, watching videos/replays of those of a higher calibre of skill than you is another good one to do, especially if you're feeling stuck somewhere, or you just can't seem to figure something out in that certain part of whatever game you're playing!
Lastly, and perhaps the most important one, is... Have fun playing the game(s), and don't treat it as a chore to do, for if you do, then there isn't much hope on getting better at the game(s) in-general, and you'll probably end up quitting, so don't feel so forced to play, honestly. Play at the times you feel you're up for one (I personally try to do this everyday, as I said before, especially if you do want to get better at the game(s)) and before you know it, you'll actually start to progress through and through, and the funny part is, you might not even notice it! Don't feel discouraged, if you don't succeed in 1cc the game(s) on whatever difficulty you play in, as for your case, you may not get it right all the time, as this is to be expected. Just have at it, again and again, and I promise you, you'll get better! You have my word!
With that said, hang in there, trooper, for you've only just started! The path ain't easy, but hey, all things take effort, don't they? This is the shmup genre after-all! Best of luck on your path, trooper! There's so much to learn, and so much worth getting good at, so stick around! Trust me, it's totally worth it! Honestly, these game(s) and this genre, in-general, do deserve to be played by more people and get more exposure! I don't know why many, even though they like the music, the art, and heck, even the fangames (There are a LOT of them, and they're very fun to play, as well!) but when it comes to the official games, like, suddenly, somewhere from 95% - 99% of that crowd or whatever (Just a complete guess, but this is from my own observation) disappears for some reason, and... I don't know. The official Touhou games really aren't that bad difficulty-wise, honestly. They're certainly doable alright, it just takes a lot of practice and dedication to really get somewhere in the game(s), we can say that, I suppose I can say it that way. It's actually, arguably, one of the easier shmups to play, so they say, but it's really unfortunate many run off anyway, so to speak.
If you have any questions, or need me to clarify anything I said here, feel free to ask/contact me through PM, e-mail, here, or wherever, and I'll answer to the best of my ability!
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^ Mostly a good post. A lot of these things are true. The best way to progress is to play; you will often only notice the progress in how you beat the games (or beat your best runs) and so on.
But you don't have to play every day. If you say "I want to play every day for an hour" it's like meeting a quota and that's not the way to go about. I don't know why, but people apparently think of me as one of the better players here and let me tell you that I most certainly don't play every day. I also know that Chum, Cactu or Zil don't play every day. Forcing yourself to play will just burn you out faster. Oftentimes a break will get you back, but sometimes, once burnt out, you will rarely, if ever, touch the games again. So I guess what I want to say is: Don't force yourself to anything. If your initial reaction is something along the lines of "this is impossible, I'll never get good", then you should consider watching players better than you, maybe contact them if you can and ask them how it was for them. I'm sure you could get some tips from some of the old players here. Or maybe not, if they have bad memory.
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^ Mostly a good post. A lot of these things are true. The best way to progress is to play; you will often only notice the progress in how you beat the games (or beat your best runs) and so on.
But you don't have to play every day. If you say "I want to play every day for an hour" it's like meeting a quota and that's not the way to go about. I don't know why, but people apparently think of me as one of the better players here and let me tell you that I most certainly don't play every day. I also know that Chum, Cactu or Zil don't play every day. Forcing yourself to play will just burn you out faster. Oftentimes a break will get you back, but sometimes, once burnt out, you will rarely, if ever, touch the games again. So I guess what I want to say is: Don't force yourself to anything. If your initial reaction is something along the lines of "this is impossible, I'll never get good", then you should consider watching players better than you, maybe contact them if you can and ask them how it was for them. I'm sure you could get some tips from some of the old players here. Or maybe not, if they have bad memory.
^ Indeed, this is a very good point to be made. I see where this is coming from very much so!
Yeah, I only say that personally because, well, I mentioned I did an unnecessarily long hiatus for about two years, more-or-less, and to me, that truly sucked so bad, especially since at that time before, back in Aug. 2011, when I did my 1st ever 1cc clear on an Exrta Stage (It was battling Ran Yakumo w/ Sakuya A. I remember being damn proud of that one, even though it had mistakes galore lol) before, and well, soon after that one, real-life happened to me, suffice to say, and before long, it got to one thing after another, and that disastrous hiatus happened. Crap reason, I know, but yeah, that's what happened. It really sucked, and it was rather inexcusable of me to do, especially since, if I hadn't stopped then, and kept playing at it, then who knows where I would be right now, and yeah, that sure was... no.. Dang it, no. I never want to leave again, and so, I made that promise to myself, "Never again." So, I get rather adamant about trying to play everyday, and I do my very best to, but yeah, even then, it's still pretty darn hard to do, especially since, for me, real life crap happens, and it sure takes away time from other things, such as getting to where I'd like to be in Touhou, and shmups in-general. Indeed, I totally see what you're saying. This will be duly noted! Playing smart comes to mind when I hear your advice right now, for me, at least. It is very interesting to hear.
Also, well met, Sakurei!