Author Topic: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory  (Read 30035 times)

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2010, 08:44:25 PM »
....at this point, I'm not even sure what on earth your actual point is, anymore.  You seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, now.

Oh, OK. Why didn't you say so? Here, let me explain it another way:

I am classified as a human being. Policemen are also human beings. Does this mean I'm a policeman? No, not really. We need more evidence. Me being a human being doesn't tell us anything about my state of policeness. My species, in other words, is not evidence one way or the other of my being a policeman. It gives us zero information towards my state of police-itude.

Hope that helps!

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2010, 08:46:32 PM »
Oh, OK. Why didn't you say so? Here, let me explain it another way:

I am classified as a human being. Policemen are also human beings. Does this mean I'm a policeman? No, not really. We need more evidence. Me being a human being doesn't tell us anything about my state of policeness. My species, in other words, is not evidence one way or the other of my being a policeman.

Hope that helps!

See, you're arguing about something no one was ever arguing about in the first place.

You need to go back and re-read the previous pages more closely so you can get the CONTEXT of what's being discussed here.  Everyone isn't saying "human = maybe a policeman!".   It's about some OTHER person saying "human = definately NOT a policeman" and people countering with "human = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a policeman"
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:48:53 PM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2010, 08:52:22 PM »
Now that is simply not true - this argument was being made, as I've already shown, in the form of "well, she's a youkai, so that doesn't mean she's NOT a dragon!" Saying that "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon" is irrelevant to the subject of Hong's dragon-ness. That's the point. Her being a youkai tells us nothing. It has no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand, and it needed pointing out.

You corrected Stuffman on the subject of youkai, and congratulations for that and all, but the argument that "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon" says absolutely nothing. I thought that pointing this out might be helpful, and that people wouldn't get all pouty and defensive, and might actually want to have a discussion. Silly me.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:56:45 PM by Tsukiko »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2010, 09:01:52 PM »
Now that is simply not true - this argument was being made, as I've already shown, in the form of "well, she's a youkai, so that doesn't mean she's NOT a dragon!" Saying that "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon" is irrelevant to the subject of Hong's dragon-ness. That's the point. Her being a youkai tells us nothing. It has no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand, and it needed pointing out.

You corrected Stuffman on the subject of youkai, and congratulations for that and all, but the argument that "youkai = doesn't necessarily mean NOT a dragon" says absolutely nothing. I thought that pointing this out might be helpful, and that people wouldn't get all pouty and defensive, and might actually want to have a discussion. Silly me.

It's not SUPPOSED to mean anything, nor did anyone who said it ever meant it to mean anything beyond correcting Stuffman.  It' s merely supposed to correct Stuffman, which it did and accomplished that purpose.  You're trying to blow this out of proportion into something that needs correction, when the only reason it existed in the first place was to correct someone else, which it DID.  Why you insist on trying to say this correction means nothing when this correction was never meant to mean anything, but merely meant to correct someone else (which it did) is beyond me.  Again, at this point, you're basically disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, because there never was any point to the correction of "Youkai = doesn' tnecessarily mean NOT a dragon" EXCEPT to correct the guy who said "Youkai = Not a dragon!", which it did, therefore there's no reason for you to point out that there's no point to it, because WE ALL ALREADY KNOW THAT AND DIDN'T MEAN FOR IT TO HAVE A POINT beyond correcting Stuffman
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 09:03:56 PM by Tiamat »

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2010, 09:31:34 PM »
You're both right. Tiamat argued one thing, Ammy started on that thing and then moved onto something else with Savory, which coincided with what Tiamat was saying. And then somehow both of you decided you were still arguing against each other and you've pretty much been throwing around words because you both think you're actually arguing some point. You're agreeing. The label "Youkai" means nothing. Her being a youkai has nothing to do with her possibly being a dragon as Ammy said, but being a youkai does not go against her being a dragon, as Tiamat said. The end.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2010, 09:52:00 PM »
You're both right. Tiamat argued one thing, Ammy started on that thing and then moved onto something else with Savory, which coincided with what Tiamat was saying. And then somehow both of you decided you were still arguing against each other and you've pretty much been throwing around words because you both think you're actually arguing some point. You're agreeing. The label "Youkai" means nothing. Her being a youkai has nothing to do with her possibly being a dragon as Ammy said, but being a youkai does not go against her being a dragon, as Tiamat said. The end.

That's pretty much what I thought

Therefore:
I always thought that the term "youkai" was used by humans in Gensokyo for any human-like species that exists. Those classified as just simply "Youkai" are undetermined in terms of their actual species, while others like Night Sparrow or Karakasa or Satori are all still considered "Youkai", but with a determinate species that they fall under/relate to.

Meiling is just an undetermined youkai species that could be anything atm.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2010, 09:58:24 PM »
Meiling is a nue. Discuss.
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2010, 10:58:49 PM »
I believed who all the thing about Meiling and dragons is relative to the legend about who all the chinese people are descendients of a dragon,and she, how is a chinese youkai, have something of that power.
Some years ago heared about Kaguya like the dragon, because one of her spellcards have a dragon in it, and because she and Mokou (the phoenix) are in eternal fight. Even believed who the "dragon" of Gensokyo is Rinnosuke, but he was "sealed" for Yukari...and the pact with the dragons...was a simple transaccion about odds and ends. He live in the forest, some dragons can create forests; his name means long rain spell, dragon can MAKE rain and create storms (even in one CoLA chapter he believed who obtained the power of make rain thanks to the Kusanagi sword) and dragons are treasure guardians (antiques and even junk are treasures for other people XD) and even his apparence, white hair and golden eyes, remind a dragon. well, but this is all weird teories,forget all!  :derp:

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2010, 10:02:53 AM »
Alright, fine.

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed fandom, I have one final thing I want you to consider.



Ladies and gentlemen, this is Patchouli Knowledge. Patchouli is a magician youkai from the Magic Library Voile. But Patchouli lives in the Scarlet Devil Mansion. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a magician, a purple beansprout magician, want to live in the Scarlet Devil Mansion, with a bunch of bratty vampires? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this debate?

Nothing.

Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this debate! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a YuugenMagan eye wearing a fedora defending Meiling's status as a generic youkai, and I'm talkin' about Patchouli! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in front of your computer thinkin' and linkin' the Touhou Wiki, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed fandom, it does not make sense! If Patchouli lives in the Scarlet Devil Mansion, Hong Meiling is not a dragon! The defense rests.

~~~

Okay seriously now!

There are two meanings for the term "youkai". There's the conversational generic use which refers to pretty much every non-human species, this is what you're usually talking about when you talk about youkai in Gensokyo. However, when you're talking about what specific species a specific character is, that designation becomes much less broad and it's not appropriate to refer to just anything supernatural as a youkai.

I can prove it! Have a look at the table of contents in Perfect Memento. While Akyu calls it a "Youkai Encyclopedia", she is using the term youkai in the generic sense, because there are some things listed here that are very obviously not youkai, particularly celestials. This is why it is not correct to say that if Meiling is listed as a proper traditional youkai as her specific species, she can still be anything in the generic youkai umbrella.

But you know what, let's just set that aside because Akyu's failure to be clear about this stuff is whole 'nother bag of potatoes and I don't need it to argue beyond a reasonable doubt that Meiling is not a dragon.

Looking at Factorial's first post, all we have is the (admittedly generous) list of ways in which Meiling makes use of dragon aesthetics. However, this doesn't say anything by itself. For the sake of simplicity, let's just list two possibilities we can draw from this:
A) Meiling is an ordinary youkai with dragon aesthetics
B) Meiling is a dragon!

What evidence is there that supports Meiling being more than just a regular youkai? All the information we have on her is very cut-and-dry. No question marks have been raised, she is plainly stated to be an ordinary youkai who works as Remilia's gate guard and groundskeeper. If any of her bio entries either in the games or in Perfect Memento said something like "she has a mysterious past" or "nobody knows what kind of youkai she really is" then we would have a reason to wonder about it and maybe arrive at the conclusion that she could be a dragon.

Let's compare her to Sakuya. I don't like the "Sakuya is a Lunarian" theory either, but the difference is that it's actually grounded in canon facts: it's unknown how Sakuya came to serve Remilia, Sakuya isn't her real name, there are many rumors about her being from outside Gensokyo, and for some ridiculous reason Eirin knew who she was.

Meiling doesn't have any of these mysteries. They're not unanswered in canon, they're just undiscussed. There's no reason to think that you couldn't just walk up to Meiling, ask away, and have her tell you about herself like you could with any other character.

If you start considering the possibility of Meiling being a dragon, a huge number of problems and questions are raised, like "why isn't she smarter/stronger", "why is she working for Remilia", "why is this issue never ever hinted at in the plot", "why doesn't anyone know that there's a dragon in Gensokyo", etc etc. While you can propose answers to these questions, there is no evidence to support those answers, and when you compare the amount of hoops you have to jump through to validate this theory to the stark simplicity of "she's just a youkai who likes dragons", it becomes clear which is the better explanation.

In fact, I don't know why I didn't think to look this up sooner, but have a look at Meiling's bio in EoSD:
Quote
Chinese Girl
Hong Meiling

Ability: Control of Chi

Stage 3 boss. A Chinese-looking youkai.

Her clothing is colorful and somewhat traditional. She is the gatekeeper of the Scarlet Devil Mansion, and prevents intruders from beyond the lake from reaching the mansion. She is by no means a special character, but she is the first character that has something to do with the main story. Even if that something happens to be merely mentioning the Mistress.
Quote
She is by no means a special character

There you go. Word of God. Apart from ZUN directly saying that she's not a dragon, I'm not sure how much clearer it can possibly get that Meiling is an ordinary, run-of-the-mill youkai. In fact, she likely would have been a throwaway character like many of the early touhou girls if we fans didn't decide that we wub her very much, so I strongly doubt that she's being set up for such an important revelation (at an unbelievably slow pace, at that).

I mean geez if she was a dragon they could've at least had Iku talk to her or something to throw that up in the air, geez

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2010, 10:19:39 AM »
You had me with the Chewbacca Defense (known hereafter as the Patchoulli Defense).

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2010, 02:32:46 PM »
ilu stuff

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Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2010, 03:58:39 PM »
Apart from ZUN directly saying that she's not a dragon...

Well I'm out. I was no aware of that tidbit.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2010, 05:40:16 PM »
There you go. Word of God. Apart from ZUN directly saying that she's not a dragon, I'm not sure how much clearer it can possibly get that Meiling is an ordinary, run-of-the-mill youkai. In fact, she likely would have been a throwaway character like many of the early touhou girls if we fans didn't decide that we wub her very much, so I strongly doubt that she's being set up for such an important revelation (at an unbelievably slow pace, at that).

I have no opinion whatsoever as to what sort of Youkai Meiling is, but I WOULD like to point something out. No, Meiling was not intended to be an important character at the time of EoSD. However, that was years ago. In all that time, there is a definite possibility that ZUN has developed other intentions regarding her, especially given the fact that she actually has made return appearances.

Naturally, this does NOT change the nature of anything in the debate. There is always a POSSIBILITY but unless ZUN specifically states that she IS a dragon, then everything will be speculation. And personally, what I think? It will, with almost complete certainty, always be up in the air. More likely than not, Meiling will not have any real importance to the plot of Touhou at any point. If she IS a dragon, it will probably never be stated by ZUN, and there will never be more than hints and symbolism. If she isn't? That probably won't be stated either.

So basically, there's always the POSSIBILITY of being either one. There's always the POSSIBILITY of anything being true as long as it doesn't directly contradict canon. But that possibility is nothing to get hopes up about, or start getting mad over. Just like any ideas of Shinki being Alice's mother, I sincerely doubt that it will become canon. Ever. Does that mean that no one should EVER use the idea? No. It's actually a pretty interesting idea, which I'm sure has the possibility of being implemented well. But it is just that: An idea. A possibility which may or not turn out to be true.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 05:42:51 PM by ShiningDrake »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2010, 05:48:13 PM »
See, that's an example of "false equivalence". In the Not A Dragon column, we have: the game creator's own words about this character. In the A Dragon column, you've added: the fact that she's appeared in games. These two pieces of evidence are not equivalent.

I appreciate what you're saying about speculation and all, but I really don't think this matter is "up in the air". This implies there is compelling evidence on both sides. There isn't. Fun thought it may be.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »
I wasn't trying to say that there is "compelling evidence" on either side. I'm not even supporting her being a dragon, because I don't really HAVE an opinion. I was more pointing out the possibility of changed intentions over time, and something that is different from what would APPEAR to have been an original intention. I'm not precisely trying to claim them as equivalent. You can draw whatever conclusion you want from it, it's always possible that it's true, or not true, regardless of the actual odds of it. We don't know what goes on in ZUN's mind, so can we say what he intends? No.

Basically I'm saying that you can draw whatever conclusions you want, but you shouldn't take them as absolute fact. You want to imagine what it's like with anything that can happen? Sure, go ahead. It won't be a concrete fact to be used in arguments. There are fun ideas, but I really don't think that there will be anything absolutely concrete beyond a shadow of a doubt.

(Maybe I just shouldn't have posted at all ever <_< Didn't precisely add much... Bit late to take it back now though, so I get to explain what I meant)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 06:00:40 PM by ShiningDrake »

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2010, 07:55:06 PM »
That's it. From this point on, canon doesn't make any difference. Let's just have fun speculating.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #77 on: November 23, 2010, 08:53:03 PM »
the plot of Touhou

...does Touhou actually have any sort of grand, overarching plot aside from "incidents happen and get solved?" The closest thing I've seen to the plots of the games actually being connected in some way is that they all take place in the same world and the plots of Mountain of Faith, Subterranean Animism, Undefined Fantastic Object, and Hisoutensoku are all directly influenced by each other. It's certainly not to the extent of Final Fantasy, where the games have almost nothing to do with each other and don't even take place in the same world, but I wouldn't say Touhou has much of a primary plot aside from the last few games.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, it's just something I thought of when I read that.

That's it. From this point on, canon doesn't make any difference. Let's just have fun speculating.

Um. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the point in that. I could say Reimu and Marisa are the same person, and disregarding canon entirely, that would be perfectly fine. In my opinion, speculating is really only fun when you take canon and put some thought into coming up with theories that have a base in the evidence given. Like, for example, why Sakuya and Eirin seemed to know each other in Imperishable Night. Maybe Sakuya is a Lunarian? But ZUN has directly stated that she's human. So maybe Eirin made the Luna Dial and gave it to Sakuya for whatever reason? Well, there isn't any evidence to contradict that theory, so it's viable.

Otherwise I'll just say "Yukari is Azathoth" and nobody could say I'm wrong because canon is completely disregarded.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 08:59:00 PM by Squidtentacle »
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2010, 09:36:06 PM »
Um. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the point in that. I could say Reimu and Marisa are the same person, and disregarding canon entirely, that would be perfectly fine. In my opinion, speculating is really only fun when you take canon and put some thought into coming up with theories that have a base in the evidence given. Like, for example, why Sakuya and Eirin seemed to know each other in Imperishable Night. Maybe Sakuya is a Lunarian? But ZUN has directly stated that she's human. So maybe Eirin made the Luna Dial and gave it to Sakuya for whatever reason? Well, there isn't any evidence to contradict that theory, so it's viable.

Otherwise I'll just say "Yukari is Azathoth" and nobody could say I'm wrong because canon is completely disregarded.

I'm just saying that the main point of this topic is to have fun speculating on whether or not Meiling is a dragon. Either way, it won't disrupt how we perceive the character, so there's no reason to go out of your way to prove someone wrong. What happened to the fun in it?

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Hong Meiling
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2010, 11:23:14 PM »
I think what Squid means is that the fun of speculations, for him, comes from trying to fold a theory into canon instead of pulling it out of thin air.

Also, why do you find it not fun that people are debating? Where is the fun of everyone agreeing with each other? I don't know how many speculation threads you've seen, but good ones generate a lively discussion, with agreement and disagreement. It comes with the turf, and I think it's kinda weird to imply that people disagreeing with a fan theory are ruining the fun.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2010, 11:36:11 PM »
Also, why do you find it not fun that people are debating? Where is the fun of everyone agreeing with each other? I don't know how many speculation threads you've seen, but good ones generate a lively discussion, with agreement and disagreement. It comes with the turf, and I think it's kinda weird to imply that people disagreeing with a fan theory are ruining the fun.
Different people think differently.  News at eleven.

I agree that most of the fun comes from discussion and debating though.  If everyone just simply agreed, it would get pretty dull after a few hours.

Re: Hong Meiling
« Reply #81 on: November 23, 2010, 11:58:43 PM »
I think what Squid means is that the fun of speculations, for him, comes from trying to fold a theory into canon instead of pulling it out of thin air.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry if it didn't come out clearly enough.
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2010, 01:04:50 AM »
Meiling's obviously a dragon.  Otherwise my avatar and name don't work.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2010, 04:49:37 AM »
Is there anyone here who's a native speaker of Japanese?  I'm not going to put much weight into "Hong Meiling is by no means a special character" until I've actually made certain what the CONTEXT of that line is in the original Japanese.  "not a special character" can mean something completely different in its native language compared to what an English speaker reading a second-hand translation might be interpreting it as.  For all we know, maybe ZUN just simply meant that she wasn't particularly important to EoSD's plot itself (something that the rest of the sentence "but she is the first one that mentions the mistress" seems to imply), not that she wouldn't have a bigger role in the future.  It's not wise to try to read into it too much until we know for sure what the actual context of the sentence is in the original Japanese.

Quote
...does Touhou actually have any sort of grand, overarching plot aside from "incidents happen and get solved?"

Kinda going off topic here, but Touhou does have some fore-casted plots.  I'm not sure if you'd call it "overarching", but that's irrelevant.

For example, a HUGE point of celestials being in Perfect Memento was to foreshadow Tenshi (and Yukari's rage at the heavens).  The same goes for Hermits being in Perfect Memento forecasting Ibara.

It thus stands to reason that SOMEDAY, Zun probably plans to do a plot with a/the dragon, considering that he bothered putting it in Perfect Memento in the first place.


(of course, ZUN often uses/used Perfect Memento to throw people for a loop, too.  For example, Perfect Memento says that Heaven is full, then Yukari discovers in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody that it's a lie and Tenshi turns out to be a complete spoiled brat.  Perfect Memento also describes hermits as old geezers, then ZUN gives us Ibara, with Reimu saying "Aren't hermits supposed to be old geezers?" etc etc.  Presumably, when ZUN finally does use the Dragon for an actual plot, he'll probably throw in some twist to go with it, just like he did with hermits and celestials)

It should also be noted that Scarlet Weather Rhapsody had an explicitly stated and unresolved cliffhanger, too (what did/is Yukari planning for the Hakurei Shrine) and possibly Touhou Hisoutenko as well (Mei Ling's ending)

And of course, ZUN's forecasted that there are four devas of the mountain, which Ibara seems to be leaning more and more to (Horned Hermit volume 2's ending making it even more obvious).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 05:24:18 AM by Tiamat »

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2010, 10:55:28 AM »
Is there anyone here who's a native speaker of Japanese?  I'm not going to put much weight into "Hong Meiling is by no means a special character" until I've actually made certain what the CONTEXT of that line is in the original Japanese.  "not a special character" can mean something completely different in its native language compared to what an English speaker reading a second-hand translation might be interpreting it as.  For all we know, maybe ZUN just simply meant that she wasn't particularly important to EoSD's plot itself (something that the rest of the sentence "but she is the first one that mentions the mistress" seems to imply), not that she wouldn't have a bigger role in the future.  It's not wise to try to read into it too much until we know for sure what the actual context of the sentence is in the original Japanese.

It's funny that you would say we shouldn't read too much into the game creator himself saying this character "is by no means a special character", but that we can read into his absolute silence on her "bigger role" to possibly mean that she is, in fact, special.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2010, 02:59:03 PM »
...Yet pointing it out like that obviously isn't ironic because we clearly haven't spent the last two pages also arguing around single quotes that probably don't mean anything either.

It really does just mean she's "nothing special". There isn't any awkward context in it at all, it's just "She's not really a special character". You don't need to be a native speaker to get something like that.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2010, 03:38:47 PM »
What mainly bothers me with this thread is that people imply there is more than one dragon, despite the fact the Perfect Memento article only refers to the Dragon. Singular, not plural. All other race articles refer to their race in plural. It's even called the highest order of god, not gods, in Perfect Memento. It pretty much sounds like the article is talking about a single being, not several.

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2010, 04:28:05 PM »
Also, why do you find it not fun that people are debating? Where is the fun of everyone agreeing with each other? I don't know how many speculation threads you've seen, but good ones generate a lively discussion, with agreement and disagreement. It comes with the turf, and I think it's kinda weird to imply that people disagreeing with a fan theory are ruining the fun.

I'm not saying debating isn't fun. It's just that it looks like things are turning into "NO! YOU'RE WRONG!" as far as the said debating goes. Nothing wrong with a fun deliberation in general.

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2010, 04:59:48 PM »
I'm not saying debating isn't fun. It's just that it looks like things are turning into "NO! YOU'RE WRONG!" as far as the said debating goes. Nothing wrong with a fun deliberation in general.

I'm really not reading it that way, but alright.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Savory

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Re: Hong Meiling
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2010, 05:16:02 PM »
I'm really not reading it that way, but alright.

D'oh nevermind xD