Asking for money as direct aid to make fan work is not allowed. "Please give money to do X Y Z". Examples are: begging, donations, crowdfunding and similar cases of direct monetary help.I thought we had learned that donationware is an acceptable means of receiving money. Am I confusing something?
同人 "doujin"
The word "doujin" consists of two kanji: 同 "the same", and 人 "people". The actual meaning of the word is "like-minded people", and 同人誌 "doujinshi" means "magazines by like-minded people". The word "doujinshi" was coined by the literary circles of Meiji era to refer to the non-commercial magazines they editted and produced themselves. According to wikipedia (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%8C%E4%BA%BA), at the beginning of Comic Market and otaku culture, the early otaku actually borrowed the English word "fanzine", referring to their self-published manga as "manga fanzine", and the adoption of the "doujinshi" word took place later.
I don't think the concept of "doujin" is particularly hard to understand if you look at its roots: people who share the same hobby gather together, and exchange their self-published writings or drawings. The early otaku would have preferred to exchange their works one by one; they only started charging money to simplify the process and cover each other's expenses. The otaku are far from saints, but they did not, and still often do not make doujinshi while wishing to make money, or let people outside of their own fandoms see their works. The vast majority of doujin creators still do it at a deficit.
※ How to make Touhou derived work ※By following the doujin method, ZUN's permission should not and should never be an issue. Do note that he have the right not to allow you to make your fanwork if he doesn't want you to.
ZUN's guidelines in a nutshell
If you want to make touhou derived work you're allowed to as long as you stick to the guidelines (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights) written by ZUN. Some confusion seems to exist but it is very simple:
- The guidelines create a play ground for you to make fan work. No matter what, ZUN remains the Intellectual Property owner of Touhou Project.
- Asking for money as direct aid to make fan work is not allowed. "Please give money to do X Y Z". Examples are: begging, donations, crowdfunding and similar cases of direct monetary help.
- You can publish your work for smartphones as long as they are free and without any profit-mechanism (advertisement, premium, upgrade, etc.)
- Your work cannot be published on Steam and similar platforms. It doesn't matter if it is for free or paid.
- Your work cannot be published on consoles for now like WiiU, Xbox, etc. (A PS4/Vita Doujin fan game opportunity for Japan is being made. Read here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17316.0.html))
- If you decide to release your work on your own website, you are not allowed to ask money for it.
- Additionally, you are not allowed to sell your work online through websites or programs if they:
- Don't have relationship with Touhou Project or ZUN.
- Are not Doujin orientated. (For example: Devian Art is NOT a Doujin and Touhou affiliated website. You can post art, but cannot sell it.)
- Regarding naming your work, there are a few things you should keep in mind (source (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Yoyo/1736/t-081-4.html)):
- The title or name should not match actual names in Touhou Project. (Do not call your work "Hakurei Reimu" or "Hakurei Shrine")
- The title or name should not cause easy to mistake for an official work. (Do not call your work "Imperishable Night Gaiden")
- It is preferable to not call your work "Touhou XXX". In a 2013 seminar, ZUN said he considered making this a rule, but didn't do it.
I want to sell my work(to make profit)!
Doujin work is a hobby activity, meaning usually Doujin circles or individuals have no purpose of making money as a profit by default. That is why people will frown if you purposely make a fan work, just to make some cash. But if you insist on selling your work, you need to follow the guidelines of ZUN which is basically:
- You're allowed to sell your work physically at events as a booth or circle owner (Example: (Touhou) cons, Comiket and Reitaisai)
- You can only physically sell your work in one of the Doujin and Touhou affliated stores in Japan only! (Example: Melon Books, Comic Toranoana)
- No, you cannot sell your work digitally anywhere, not even in Japan. (?)
For instance, there are some notable examples that directly contradict the guideline that Doujin works cannot become Indie works (or any other type of commercial works)Since this chart came up in response to a derivative work, it's possible that Ruw meant you can have a doujin that's a derivative work of someone else's indie project but not the other way around.
It is preferable to not call your work "Touhou XXX". In a 2013 seminar, ZUN said he considered making this a rule, but didn't do it.
It is preferable to not call your work "Touhou XXX".Great. There goes the name for my adult-oriented Touhou fangame... =(
Great. There goes the name for my adult-oriented Touhou fangame... =(
But seriously, I understand it's "discouraged" but how does this work in the case someone wishes to use "Touhou" in the name of their fangame? Should it be accompanied with a mandatory clear and visible disclaimer that the game isn't an official Touhou game? Seems to me like that would clear things up..... Or is it best to just avoid the use of "Touhou" in the title alltogether, with "preferable" being a subtle way of saying "don't do it, period"?
Or is it best to just avoid the use of "Touhou" in the title alltogether, with "preferable" being a subtle way of saying "don't do it, period"?Definitely. Zun himself uses the rule with some of the spin offs, meaning the distinction is important. 'Touhou' is probably Zun's personal mark on his games.
They exposed the Touhou Project without ZUN's permission in a forum (Indiegogo) used by people who are unfamiliar with the doujin culture or the Touhou Project. This will invite criticism even when the service used is not crowdfunding.
I also brought up the case of Type-Moon to him, and he clarified that he was talking specifically about works and not companies.
And "pure" doujin can't become indie because, at least in the example above, he meant stuff like fanworks, be it Touhou, anime, or any IP you don't own.
I'm still not 100% sure of why Cave Story doesn't fall in the middle along with Touhou, but that chart shouldn't be taken as gospel truth or anything.
No, you cannot sell your work digitally anywhere, not even in Japan. (?)Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?
Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?Commissions are done between people, and unless you're going to take your commission and sell it somewhere else there is no problem with you throwing money at someone to make a thing just for you, nor accepting such an offer. It isn't really about whether it's digital or otherwise, it just isn't a commercial endeavour to begin with.
Also, here are two existing examples that contrast with the point of not selling digitally(correct me if I'm wrong):Good note. Bandcamp if anything is the main grey area, since there isn't really a precedent for its model. I don't think it's too problematic, but best practices would mean making it clear that it's a Touhou music arrange and composed by ZUN like any other doujin album would. Having it free to play probably helps.
Rin Ginsuke (http://rinx2musixxx.bandcamp.com/)
Imizu (http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=maker_info&makers_id=MK0000012935&age=1)
Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?
Also, here are two existing examples that contrast with the point of not selling digitally(correct me if I'm wrong):
Rin Ginsuke (http://rinx2musixxx.bandcamp.com/)
Imizu (http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=maker_info&makers_id=MK0000012935&age=1)
Summary of Blog Update:
Reproductions of individual commissions are explicitly exempted from the restrictions on
commercial work (i.e. if someone commissions you to do something, it?s okay to then sell
reproductions of it in limited quantities as a doujin work)
Does making commissioned artwork based on Touhou fall under this? Say someone tells me they want X Touhou character drawn so I do that on a computer and send them the illustration digitally in exchange for money. Should this be avoided?
[snip]
Commissioning pieces of your project should be good on all accounts as long as you yourself are a major creative part of the project. It's no different from paying someone to press CDs/DVDs or print books because you personally don't own that machinery and don't know how to do it yourself. On the other hand I can't see someone's only contribution to a project being money being okay. (Though it's hard to imagine any project with an angel investor not giving that person influence, even if it must pass through the skilled project member's revisions)
I'm not sure if I answered your question or not?
-snip-I see, that pretty much answers my question. Kiefmaster99(I can only see their reply when I am composing a reply for some reason) pointed out the answer was already in the guidelines about general commissions.
Summary of Blog Update:
Reproductions of individual commissions are explicitly exempted from the restrictions on commercial work (i.e. if someone commissions you to do something, it?s okay to then sell reproductions of it in limited quantities as a doujin work)
To answer more directly, no, this is not particularly vague at all. First and foremost, Danmaku!! is at the very basics a free to play printable card game. TTS is on Steam, but Danmaku!! is not related to Steam in any capacity. TTS is a sandbox game and has nothing to do with any user-made content.
If you weren't aware on how importing in TTS works, you literally just have an image of the cards (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16321.msg1152913.html#msg1152913) to import.
Please take further discussion about Danmaku!! to its own thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16321.html).
I see, that pretty much answers my question. Kiefmaster99(I can only see their reply when I am composing a reply for some reason) pointed out the answer was already in the guidelines about general commissions.Oop. That answers my question too :) Thanks Calamity and Moogs Parfait! Definitely should be in the nice list up in the beginning. May not have many 1%'ers but there will be those that have enough money to commission something major (such as indeed an itasha) that just wants to do have it to well ... have it (I know I do!).QuoteSummary of Blog Update:So much for my reading comprehension :V I suppose this means commissions for things like an Itasha (http://i.imgur.com/LaMqHnX.jpg) are all fine and dandy.
Reproductions of individual commissions are explicitly exempted from the restrictions on commercial work (i.e. if someone commissions you to do something, it’s okay to then sell reproductions of it in limited quantities as a doujin work)
It's entirely possible that even Japanese fans aren't aware of ZUN's suggestion not to name things in a similar pattern after his works, since I don't think he made a huge deal of it.
I'm kinda confused about not naming your work "Touhou XXX"; The Last Comer, Mystical Power Plant, Riverbed Soul Saver, and White Names Spoiled Past all have the same format for their names. Are they excluded because they clearly state they are fangames? ???
Pretty much what N-Forza said, the only issue is that these could be confused for official games to those who are new to touhou or new/outside of doujin. Personally I feel it better to started moving towards not using the Touhou XXX format and trying to come up with something else. You can still your Eastern but under a different name though, Touyou comes to mind as it means Eastern/Oriental if I remember, correct me if I'm wrong.
All this information is hard to grasp for me, I think it's just my lack of understanding that's making it difficult for it all to sink in.
But Touyou can be confused with Touhou, right?
I'll just use mine as a example: Museum of Eastern Dream, would a subtitle A Touhou Fangame/RPG be OK? (Personally I don't think it would need it since only those who know doujin and touhou would be informed of what the game is about.)I don't think it's necessary in the example you provided; it's not like it contains "Touhou" in the title (unless you're writing it in japanese, but your example was in english) so aside from a disclaimer somewhere in the game or documentation making it clear you don't own the characters/ect., that should be good enough.
Well, it seems one of the more common ways around this is to incorporate the name of one of the featured Touhou characters in the name of the game, e.g., Super Marisa World, MegaMari, etc.
I don't think it's necessary in the example you provided; it's not like it contains "Touhou" in the title (unless you're writing it in japanese, but your example was in english) so aside from a disclaimer somewhere in the game or documentation making it clear you don't own the characters/ect., that should be good enough.
Although....
......in the end there seems to be plenty of ways to avoid using "Touhou" in the game's title. Specifying a sub-title like "A Touhou Fangame" shouldn't be necessary considering it could only be posted in places where Touhou is already known and not having "Touhou" in the name should already make it clear to such people that it's a fangame. (Not that the standard boilerplate disclaimer shouldn't also appear somewhere, just in case......)
(At least that's how I understand this.)
I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask this but it relates to ZUN's guidelines so I guess here works. Although ZUN explicitly forbids use of game data in fanworks outside of screenshots, there are many fangames (e.g. The Last Comer, Mystical Power Plant, Fantastic Danmaku Festival) that very clearly use many sound effects from the official games, yet use completely original assets for everything else.
Are the sound effects an exception to the rules or are they ignoring them? I'm skeptical that the latter is true as the rest of the assets, including art and music, are completely original. Is it possible that ZUN's sound effects are not made by him either and are not under his ownership?
In light of this, would it be a bad idea for me to use some (very few) official sound effects in my game that I plan to sell at conventions?
P.S. Yes I've asked this question before but that was over a year ago and the answer I got wasn't very definitive.
Is it possible that ZUN's sound effects are not made by him either and are not under his ownership?
Most of ZUN's sound effects are not his original creations; he took them from a source and modified them a bit (I can't remember the exact source). The fangames work around this by getting the sounds from the original source and working from there, as opposed to using ZUN's actual data. They could have recreated it themselves, OR they could have gotten them from Nico Commons, which hosts an abundant amount of Touhou-like materials. The users over at Nico Commons would still employ the same aforementioned method to recreate the sound effects.I think I remember finding something like what you're talking about on Nico. Can you link me the page?
Can you link to where the touhou like sounds are on the site?There isn't a specific section; just search 東方 (http://commons.nicovideo.jp/search/tag/%E6%9D%B1%E6%96%B9?s=v&o=d&sc=0) and you'll get results. I recommend that you search by most views/downloads (third option and fifth option in the dropdown box, respectively).
Most of ZUN's sound effects are not his original creations; he took them from a source and modified them a bit (I can't remember the exact source). The fangames work around this by getting the sounds from the original source and working from there, as opposed to using ZUN's actual data.No, they use a few original sound effects but they do use plenty of ZUN's sounds too. The ones that aren't from the official games are very easy to spot.
They could have recreated it themselves, OR they could have gotten them from Nico Commons, which hosts an abundant amount of Touhou-like materials. The users over at Nico Commons would still employ the same aforementioned method to recreate the sound effects.Don't assume that just because it has commons in the name that it's anything like wikimedia commons, where everything is either original, self made content and/or uses a free license. A lot of sound effects from Nico Commons are taken straight from Touhou and other games.
They're not mimicked, they're _exactly_ the same as ZUN's. Listen to them side by side. They're even 22.05Khz/8 bit files like the originals, while the custom made sounds are 44.1Khz/16 bits. Hell, they even have the exact same reverb effect that ZUN added to these sounds after MoF. You don't need to be an audio specialist with golden ears to be able to tell that these are straight rips.
Hello,I am here to ask some questions I am worried about. I am very very worried about what engines I am and not allowed to use, I also wish to be a good guy and follow guidelines best I can I am not a pro and I am noob, I also wanna ask (not saying it's happening anytime soon maybe not for years) after I get experience what is the possibilities for MMOs? I am currently going for a ARPG version of a hack and slash touhou fan made with danmaku. I want to go for something like metal gear rising but I know that is not likely especially when I am new and alone, so it will prob be a sprite hack and slash combat system like metal gear rising but with typical flying and far less pretty graphics. Again please don't be mad I am new at this ><There is no engine limitation or usage of tools / techniques to create Touhou derived games.
There is no engine limitation or usage of tools / techniques to create Touhou derived games.
If you mention MMO, that means you're aiming for a massive multiplayer online. I think your main concern would be the technical difficulties in realising this. How are you going to let hundreds of people play together?
Your intuition is pretty much right. Having such a game require payment at all besides an original purchase would be wholly unacceptable, and even then it would be subject to the same rules of distribution as everything else. MMOs thrive on their accessibility and method of distribution, so trying to keep an MMO as a doujin game is even more risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls than making an MMO in the first place (which is very risky, expensive, and filled with pitfalls). I'd be floored if such a project worked out.
I had a chat with Ruw and D.N.A. a few days ago and I asked for clarification on a few points regarding the guidelines and stuff.
because even if you don't understand doujin culture, you probably have enough common sense not to flagrantly use someone else's IP.This pretty much goes for any thing in general. Common sense to commit some research, ask around and gather knowledge. Thanks for the talk/information.
What about having your stuff sold at importer booths, kinda like that NY bases group and Hendane, which both had imported Touhou stuff?Afaik violation of Touhou guidelines, right? Because they are unaffiliated stores/merchants or non-doujin related in general. There are also pretty much a lot of import stores online which also sell Touhou merchandise by import/shipping them. I remember in 2009 I bought one from some yahoo merchant.
The thing also in the west is that there are cluttered number of cons going on. I am not sure in terms of Touhou in the east, but a random con there won't have a Touhou orientated offer or booths (correct me if I am wrong). Comic cons or anime cons in the west are more general and this is where the thing gets complicated.
If I were to strictly judge myself, a regular con anywhere, including Japan, would conflict with the guidelines of Touhou. Because it is the same reason with ZUN saying that promoting Touhou in an environment where Touhou is "unknown" or can create "wrong assumptions".
So preferable is that Touhou name it self is clearly announced to avoid any assumption or false "promotion". An artist's alley is too general as it entails "art work". And it can be also non-anime/manga/doujin. So I think the most important constraint is to define Touhou it self and the event as a strict Doujin event?
What I elicit from Forza and Ruw/DNA is that defining Touhou + Doujin is the most important factor for offline events. So Anime Boston with Touhou panel == safe. Random anime con with general artist galley != safe.
Now that I'm not posting in the middle of the night, my point is that conventions already have a doujin event, they just call it Artist's Alley, which has become a misnomer for what actually goes on. Sometimes non-art is seperated off into a Dealer's Room where you'll find stuff like toys and games, but that leaves things like books and music still in AA. These places are loaded with self published fanworks and original works, and in Dealer's Rooms you can always find Japanese doujin goods being resold.I can kinda understand this, you can either be doujin or indie and be able to get in an AA area.
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just think excluding artist alleys doesn't help anyone because those are doujin events.
Now that I'm not posting in the middle of the night, my point is that conventions already have a doujin event, they just call it Artist's Alley, which has become a misnomer for what actually goes on. Sometimes non-art is seperated off into a Dealer's Room where you'll find stuff like toys and games, but that leaves things like books and music still in AA. These places are loaded with self published fanworks and original works, and in Dealer's Rooms you can always find Japanese doujin goods being resold.
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just think excluding artist alleys doesn't help anyone because those are doujin events.
Don't use official data, basically?
A note on excluding anime conventions: although this generally goes along with the sentiment of not selling Touhou fan material outside the context of the original series and so forth, the structure of conventions in Japan and NA (and likely Europe, etc) are different in that western conventions largely are built on interest-specific panels. Selling Touhou doujin material within the bounds of a Touhou-related panel (rather than a generic dealer room) is almost certainly acceptable, as one would expect most people who visit a panel are already acquainted with the series.
Do hacks count as doujin? And if not, do they follow the guidelines?
There's no rule forbidding you from using 東方XXX-style titles, but it's frowned upon. In any case there's no reason to use a japanese title if Japan isn't your primary target audience.
I'm not entirely sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but it seems about closest than anything else, and I didn't want to make an entire new topic so...
I was wondering if it was discouraged to make a game from Danmakufu that plays the same as Touhou, but contain no Touhou characters, and is just it's own story. Would that be considered stealing a game mechanic, or abusing the program to use to make my own game? No publishing, or payment.
Also, this is more of a personal question, but using my own characters wouldn't make everyone hate it, or angry, right?
I'm having a hard time explaining my question, so I hope you guys understand it.
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The fact that it's still definitely geared towards promotion within the site itself through stuff like browsing/searching and popularity/ratings, makes it definitely more dangerous than bandcamp. Are there even good examples of other such derivative works being on itch? I've never really seen any. Ultimately I think ZUN would parade something like itch for indie development, but that isn't really the issue.
I would understand how that actually works. Posting artworks that's based on the touhou series, and are NOT allowed for commercial use.
- If you decide to release your work on your own website, you are not allowed to ask money for it.
- Additionally, you are not allowed to sell your work online through websites or programs if they:
- Don't have relationship with Touhou Project or ZUN.
- Are not Doujin orientated. (For example: Devian Art is NOT a Doujin and Touhou affiliated website. You can post art, but cannot sell it.)
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You can basically use Danmakufu for anything as long as you include the DNH license.
The shmup is a genre, so as long as you don't contain ANY Touhou characters and do not use ANY of ZUN's resources, you're in the clear. Refer to Len'en as a successful example.
If you do make a Danmaku game without any connection to Touhou, be prepared to not face hate or anger but rather ignorance. You're going to have to put effort into marketing your game if you want people to play it. For me at least, I've been working on a danmaku game for two years and I can count the number of people willing to playtest the game with the fingers on my hands.
Quick question: Do you actually plan to make a fan game that doesn't contain touhou characters with the DNH license? Why, if so?
P.S. I'm not trying to blame the circumstances based on copyright terms based on the DNH, but just to research about how any fan-made game that does/doesn't contain touhou characters using DNH does.
Quick question: Do you actually plan to make a fan game that doesn't contain touhou characters with the DNH license? Why, if so?By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.
Next time, please bring this up on my project thread rather than in this one, but to answer your question:
Danmakufu is a surprisingly versatile tool that can be used for things other than SHMUPs. In addition, it is currently one of the best options available specifically for SHMUPs. Personally, if you made me choose between Unity 2D, Godot, Game Maker, or Danmakufu, for this specific genre I would always choose Danmakufu 100% of the time.
Not all SHMUPs are Touhou based, and if someone wants to make a danmaku SHMUP with or without Touhou characters, Danmakufu is a viable choice.
-----
Note: You stated the following:By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.
A few months ago we had a discussion on RaNGE whether Touhou-inspired games were allowed on RaNGE, and that might be an interesting read as well.
Note: You stated the following:By asking if I am making a fan game without Touhou characters, you are insinuating that I am making a fan game of another franchise. Technically, my main project is not a fan game but a standalone Touhou-inspired danmaku SHMUP with no connection to the Touhou universe except for the fact that Touhou's existence is known as a franchise.
I'm confused when I test Danmakufu with my practice while I live in Philippines at the Southeast Asia...
But for real... What's the difference about creating a touhou fangame that would work for money or work for no money? And where do fanmade touhou programmers work with competence?
Because 6 days ago, I understand that making fanmade touhou games that contains another franchise game (i.e., Steins; Gate, To Aru Kagaku no Railgun, etc.) is forbidden... (Thanks, SparenofIria).
Anyone out there, please respond. Thank you...
Hmm... Speaking of which... What about the fangames with crossovers (i.e., Phantasmagoria of Imagine Breaker made by Gore: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Re.Phantasmagoria_of_Imagine_Breaker (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Re.Phantasmagoria_of_Imagine_Breaker)), would that be considered illegal, unless they are specified with the original authors' permission?