Author Topic: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character  (Read 264547 times)

ToyoRai

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #510 on: May 24, 2013, 04:55:14 PM »
An option is just a thing that floats around you and shoots bullets right?
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #511 on: May 24, 2013, 05:08:03 PM »
Here's a question for the people who are more into the Touhou characters than I am: Has Sanae ever officially had a weapon of some kind? (As far as I can tell, Sanae's shot types seem to be using her own and/or Suwako/Kanako's magic...)

If not, I think that's a decent explanation for why Sakuya (whose primary attack is throwing knives) was included instead of Sanae.

Ikari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #512 on: May 24, 2013, 05:11:13 PM »
Here's a question for the people who are more into the Touhou characters than I am: Has Sanae ever officially had a weapon of some kind? (As far as I can tell, Sanae's shot types seem to be using her own and/or Suwako/Kanako's magic...)

If not, I think that's a decent explanation for why Sakuya (whose primary attack is throwing knives) was included instead of Sanae.

That's... That makes too much sense.

She seems to be throwing amulets and using her little (what I assume to be a) gohei, but unlike Reimu, almost entirely bases her powers on her goddesses; We haven't seen anything from her that isn't godess magic. I think.

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #513 on: May 24, 2013, 05:12:38 PM »
Afaik, she only uses her Gohei and/or her goddesses (judging from the fighting games here).

Good guess, btw.
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #514 on: May 24, 2013, 05:35:07 PM »
It would be nice if we could learn a bit more about Sakuya herself for once. I know that some people like how a lot of Touhou questions are unanswered, but Sakuya is an infuriating case where ZUN himself stated there IS an answer to the question. It's just his original plans to reveal the answer ended up being discarded (it's in the "ZUN's e-mails" page on the wiki). So we get the "fun" situation where you can't even make things up about Sakuya to fill in the holes because you know the ACTUAL answer exists. You just were never told it. Unlike other mysteries in the Touhou universe where there's probably an official answer that isn't directly given to us, Sakuya doesn't even provide any CLUES to play with (or at least, none that I could find despite all my searching).

I don't expect that to be happening in this game, though (or like, ever). Sakuya has and likely always will be just an extension of the SDM (which is too bad cause the other SDM characters actually branched out from it quite a bit here and there. Even Meiling in Hisoutensoku battles for the sake of Gensokyo, not just the SDM). I guess the few times Sakuya wasn't involved with the SDM, she was helping prepare food for other parties. It'd be more interesting if she were doing stage magician tricks instead, IMHO, like back during CoLA. Well, at least her options are cards which might be a reference to that.

And hey, maybe this game will prove me wrong. It's been so long since Sakuya last appeared that maybe ZUN got out of the whole "Whatever Sakuya is doing is completely related to the SDM" scthick by now.

....yea, I know, I'm late.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:38:36 PM by Tiamat »

Ikari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #515 on: May 24, 2013, 05:48:07 PM »
Here's what's going to happen.

Sakuya: ...Where are my knives...?

Meiling: Eh? I don't know. I think they disappeared.

Patchouli: A youkai's doing, probably.

Sakuya: *Slowly sets down the teacup on the table* ...A shrine maiden and a witch attacked the mansion. I simply fought back. A ghost stole spring and threatened us with starvation. I simply fought back. A moon princess stole our moon. I again, simply fought back.

Remilia: ...I'll be going now-

Sakuya: BUT I WON'T LET ANYONE TOUCH MY GODDAMN KNIVES, AM I CLEAR? I WON'T FIGHT WHOEVER DID THIS; I'LL TEAR THEM APART AND CONSUME THEIR VERY FLESH; I'LL CARVE MY NAME OVER AND OVER IN THEIR LIMBS AND MAKE THEM REGRET THE DAY THEY TOUCHED MY PRECIOUS, SHARP, SILVERY BABIES.

ToyoRai

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #516 on: May 24, 2013, 05:54:57 PM »
What I honestly wish that if you have "weaponless" shot type, Sakuya's Bomb of that shot type would allow her to stop time. That would be cool to have.

Ikari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #517 on: May 24, 2013, 05:57:09 PM »
What I honestly wish that if you have "weaponless" shot type, Sakuya's Bomb of that shot type would allow her to stop time. That would be cool to have.

Wasn't that her B shot type bomb in PCB...?

Regardless, it was actually pretty nice back then. Weak but cool. (And great in survival spellcards~ <3)

ToyoRai

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #518 on: May 24, 2013, 06:14:32 PM »
Wasn't that her B shot type bomb in PCB...?

Regardless, it was actually pretty nice back then. Weak but cool. (And great in survival spellcards~ <3)
Well, to be all honest, I have never played Touhou games in my life ^^; (I actually have same problem with other game series which I am fan of). Still, thanks for pointing that out.

Though the different shot types with or without weapons does sound cool. Like Reimu's "weapon" shot type would be like amulets on unfocus, needles on focus and her bomb would be creating a giant Yin Yang Orb above her enemies.

Ikari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #519 on: May 24, 2013, 06:21:06 PM »
Though the different shot types with or without weapons does sound cool. Like Reimu's "weapon" shot type would be like amulets on unfocus, needles on focus and her bomb would be creating a giant Yin Yang Orb above her enemies.

Bomb aside, you might be glad to hear that this was her shot type in Ten Desires.

Well, to be all honest, I have never played Touhou games in my life ^^; (I actually have same problem with other game series which I am fan of). Still, thanks for pointing that out.

Aha, that explains it~ You should try them someday, they're quite fun.

ToyoRai

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #520 on: May 24, 2013, 06:32:24 PM »
Bomb aside, you might be glad to hear that this was her shot type in Ten Desires.
Well, look at that. Not that similar shot type shouldn't come back.
Aha, that explains it~ You should try them someday, they're quite fun.
Yeah, maybe someday. Probably will try out one of the fighting games first if I get a chance since I have no real experience with shoot 'em ups in my life but I have some experience with fighting games.

Ikari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #521 on: May 24, 2013, 06:42:55 PM »
Well, look at that. Not that similar shot type shouldn't come back.

Of course, after all, most shot types are usually re-done. My favorites have to be SA, which took basic shot types, made original new ones, and slapped new bombs as well as cool passive abilities to each one. By FAR my favorite shot types.

Probably will try out one of the fighting games first if I get a chance since I have no real experience with shoot 'em ups in my life but I have some experience with fighting games.

I myself discovered Touhou through Hisoutensoku (which remains the only fighting game I'm good at, haha...), but I had loads of fun at the shooting games. I suck horribly (can you spell "Has a hard time on easy"?) but I actually like it anyway. It's like a weird sadomasochist fun.

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #522 on: May 24, 2013, 07:01:51 PM »
What I honestly wish that if you have "weaponless" shot type, Sakuya's Bomb of that shot type would allow her to stop time. That would be cool to have.
Wasn't that her B shot type bomb in PCB...?
It was, to an extent. Her bombs as that shottype would stop bullets (but not new ones that spawn during the bomb) but the boss and enemies would still be able to move and shoot more danmaku. The bombs would also clear everything off the screen after they finished. It probably would've been a bit too powerful to have her able to freeze everything, excluding herself, as a bomb, but I dunno.
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #523 on: May 24, 2013, 07:13:48 PM »
Considering Marisa's new spark is called "Dark Spark" I can only expect it to be part of the "dark" trend with "dark" youkai wearing such "dark" clothes. Wonder if all that dark would make everyone in Gensokyo go blind? (Sorry I had to).

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #524 on: May 24, 2013, 07:15:46 PM »
Breaking: The final boss is Shadow the Hedgehog.
Emerald Sign: Chaos Control :o
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #525 on: May 24, 2013, 07:18:10 PM »
What I honestly wish that if you have "weaponless" shot type, Sakuya's Bomb of that shot type would allow her to stop time. That would be cool to have.

But.. isn't the Lunar Dial one of her weapons?I personally am thinking Lunar Dial could be corrupted just like Master Spark/Dark Spark is for one of Saku's Shot types, but I don't even know what corrupted time stop could be... Sakuya freezing herself in time?
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Critz

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #526 on: May 24, 2013, 07:19:34 PM »
Well, her PCB  bombs are named Perfect Square  on unfocus and Private Square  on focus. Private Square  in IaMP  can be used to either freeze time completely or slow time depending on the input (↓↘→D and ↓ ↙←D respectively), so it *is* a time manipulation card.

Private Square  is a level 1 card in IaMP, by the way. Level 2 equivalent, Sakuya's World  stops/slows time in exactly the same way, only for longer. And in SWR/Soku they changed it, so Private Square  became a 3-card cost timeslow, whereas Sakuya's World  became a 5-card cost timestop (which now sucks balls due to looong startup).

 :V
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 07:21:31 PM by Critz »

ToyoRai

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #527 on: May 24, 2013, 07:29:23 PM »
But.. isn't the Lunar Dial one of her weapons?I personally am thinking Lunar Dial could be corrupted just like Master Spark/Dark Spark is for one of Saku's Shot types, but I don't even know what corrupted time stop could be... Sakuya freezing herself in time?
Has it ever stated that she uses Lunar Dial to stop time aside of Watch "Lunar Dial" in Hisoutensoku? If not, then I don't see why it would really affect Sakuya even if something would possess it.

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #528 on: May 24, 2013, 09:20:24 PM »
Considering Marisa's new spark is called "Dark Spark" I can only expect it to be part of the "dark" trend with "dark" youkai wearing such "dark" clothes. Wonder if all that dark would make everyone in Gensokyo go blind? (Sorry I had to).
The full name of the bomb is (liberally translated) Youkai Device "Dark Spark". Given the plot of the game it's like 300% obvious that the Hakkero has been possessed or corrupted in some way, which is why the Spark is Dark.

But.. isn't the Lunar Dial one of her weapons?I personally am thinking Lunar Dial could be corrupted just like Master Spark/Dark Spark is for one of Saku's Shot types, but I don't even know what corrupted time stop could be... Sakuya freezing herself in time?
Lunar Dial is not a weapon, nor even a thing. It's just the name of her theme song. Also later one of her spellcards. Although spellcards of course being spells do not necessarily indicate the existence of an actual object. It's one of her thematic elements, but I doubt it actually exists as an object. Her weapons would presumably be her knives, which historically have been associated with "Illusion Sign" as Sakuya A from PCB. If she's like Marisa she'll probably have a "Dark" version of one of her spellcards.

I don't want a completely new cast of characters. Id just like most of them to be new. I also appreciate the return of old characters. It keeps the series from getting episodic. ZUN said TD's Extra stage was a hint to the next game, so I rather expect Mamizou to show up.
She might show up in HM first. Either way that would use up her promised appearance. I guess that keeps us on our toes.

seei.e., the story that we don't even know yet. It's an a priori dismissal of the game's still-unknown story, i.e., "if Sakuya is involved, then I know ahead of time that I probably won't like the story." Clarste can dislike Sakuya enough to have a lower opinion of the yet-to-arrive game, but I think a pre-emptive judgement of the story based solely on her presence alone is a little bit premature.

Of course this kind of griping is always common in the days leading up to a game release, and it's not really a big deal. But given the amount we don't know, I'd prefer to assume the best then express pre-emptive disappointment based on my own speculations.
I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm saying that Sakuya's motivations are relatively simple and straightforward, therefore it's easy to predict a general pattern that can get her into the fray. Either Remilia is interested in something and sends her to get it, or there's some kind of global problem that will affect SDM personally. It's possible to have opinions on those broad set-ups, isn't it?

My opinion is also being exaggerated. I've emphasized repeatedly that I only slightly disappointed. I don't hate Sakuya, and indeed she's always been one of my favorite characters. But I think the stories that involve her are less interesting than the ones that don't. Because her motivations are so limited. Having no personal motivations is actually one of her most notable character traits. In general I dislike this idea that's floating around that "we have no idea about anything and therefore can't say anything". We do know things. We know things about ZUN, about Sakuya, and about Gensokyo. We know that this is explicitly a throwback to the older games. These are the facts we can use to form impressions of as-of-yet unrevealed bits. Early impressions are obviously subject to change, but who said they weren't. "Slightly disappointed" "Not sure if I like the idea..." I've only used terms like this.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 09:23:05 PM by Clarste »

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #529 on: May 24, 2013, 09:28:54 PM »
But I think the stories that involve [Sakuya] are less interesting than the ones that don't. Because her motivations are so limited. Having no personal motivations is actually one of her most notable character traits. In general I dislike this idea that's floating around that "we have no idea about anything and therefore can't say anything". We do know things. We know things about ZUN, about Sakuya, and about Gensokyo. We know that this is explicitly a throwback to the older games. These are the facts we can use to form impressions of as-of-yet unrevealed bits. While it's always possible for ZUN to astonish us with something completely unexpected, that's not even necessarily a good thing if he has to change the bits we already like to do so.

Nobody has said you can't say anything. Speculation is always welcome, and you know this. You've straight-up said you don't have much confidence in what the game story will be, because Sakuya. A few times now. That's what folks were responding to. Your disappointment is noted, and everyone else has long since moved on, so how about we keep moving on.

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #530 on: May 24, 2013, 09:39:23 PM »
Well, I doubt Shadow the Hedgehog will make an appearance.

Helepolis

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #531 on: May 24, 2013, 09:42:58 PM »
Ok fine: Sakuya's knives got possessed which makes it troublesome to cook meals for the SDM crew. To prevent them from starvation she has to do something about.

She totally doesn't fits in the story line. Totally doesn't! Silly maid. Stay home.

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #532 on: May 24, 2013, 09:46:49 PM »
I thought we already moved on.

Helepolis

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #533 on: May 24, 2013, 09:52:49 PM »
I am wondering whether the final boss youkai is the one forcing the weapons to be possessed or something else happened a long with the "appearance" of this new unknown girl.

Also ZUN claims the players have to decide whether to use it, or abandon it (I guess this is in terms of shot-type picking). Though how would the girl's think about these possessed weapons. Very curious to the actual dialogues as well in the first three demo stages.

Gah, just 1,5 days ( GMT+2 timezone :V )

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #534 on: May 24, 2013, 09:56:30 PM »
I doubt they're forcing them to be possessed. That would make it sort of odd when you fight them with the possessed weapon. Probably a side effect of some other effect. ZUN usually writes two-layered plots like that.

The fact that youkai are running amok seems more relevant to me.

Formless God

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #535 on: May 24, 2013, 10:10:56 PM »
Gah, just 1,5 days ( GMT+2 timezone :V )
At what hour does RTS start and when can we expect a stream?

Helepolis

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #536 on: May 24, 2013, 10:24:00 PM »
Well, Reitaisai usually starts at 10:00 local JP time or something (doors opening). Not sure if a organisation has stream (Niconico?)


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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #537 on: May 24, 2013, 10:26:08 PM »
Lunar Dial is not a weapon, nor even a thing. It's just the name of her theme song. Also later one of her spellcards. Although spellcards of course being spells do not necessarily indicate the existence of an actual object. It's one of her thematic elements, but I doubt it actually exists as an object. Her weapons would presumably be her knives, which historically have been associated with "Illusion Sign" as Sakuya A from PCB. If she's like Marisa she'll probably have a "Dark" version of one of her spellcards.
Just going to leave this here:
During Watch "Lunar Dial", Sakuya throws a stopwatch that stops time when it hits (the translated description indicates the watch itself stops time on hit). It should also be noted that her system card is a time-stopping stopwatch, although this one is silver and not gold like in Watch "Lunar Dial".

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #538 on: May 24, 2013, 10:33:40 PM »
Just going to leave this here:
During Watch "Lunar Dial", Sakuya throws a stopwatch that stops time when it hits (the translated description indicates the watch itself stops time on hit). It should also be noted that her system card is a time-stopping stopwatch, although this one is silver and not gold like in Watch "Lunar Dial".
The fact that she has a stopwatch doesn't mean it's called the Lunar Dial. Or that she only has one stopwatch. She's also known for enjoying flourish in her spellcards, as is befitting a stage magician, so it's unclear if the watch is actually special. Remilia has "Spear the Gungnir" which sounds pretty awesome and legendary, but Grimoire of Marisa makes it clear that it's just dense danmaku in the shape of a spear. Maybe the watch is magical, maybe it isn't, but personally I'd say the evidence leans against it. It's essentially the "Voile" problem. You can't really take song titles as canonical, and spellcards represent what the character is trying to say more than they represent facts.

SeasideCharizard

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #539 on: May 24, 2013, 10:43:08 PM »
The fact that she has a stopwatch doesn't mean it's called the Lunar Dial. Or that she only has one stopwatch. She's also known for enjoying flourish in her spellcards, as is befitting a stage magician, so it's unclear if the watch is actually special. Remilia has "Spear the Gungnir" which sounds pretty awesome and legendary, but Grimoire of Marisa makes it clear that it's just dense danmaku in the shape of a spear. Maybe the watch is magical, maybe it isn't, but personally I'd say the evidence leans against it. It's essentially the "Voile" problem. You can't really take song titles as canonical, and spellcards represent what the character is trying to say more than they represent facts.
I agree that the watch is probably not named the Lunar Dial, though I was trying to state that the watches themselves are capable of stopping time. This is especially given Sakuya doesn't have to be the one using it in Hisoutensoku.