Author Topic: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character  (Read 264608 times)

Kosachi

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #270 on: May 12, 2013, 11:25:15 PM »

It's practically impossible to have anti-matter in this universe, because it will cancel itself out as soon as it touches any matter. Not that positrons and other anti-matter particles don't exist, but it would essentially have to be man-made in our universe.
And we've done it :D

That isn't what I said. I know nothing about how hard it is to get anti-energy, or anti-matter, I don't even know where to begin finding out (besides google), so I can't or won't make the statement you just made. However, I don't have to bother with that stuff, because the problem is much simpler. If I have two Mini-Hakkero reactors, magical items the workings of which are a complete mystery, which can both conjure and propel a 9mm bullet, and only differ in the fact that one uses matter and the other uses anti-matter, I can propose that the one using matter bullets will be many times more effective at shooting things.
I wasn't summarizing what you said, I just provided a point that I believe would back up your argument further.
I finally got ahead!

cuc

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #271 on: May 12, 2013, 11:28:25 PM »
>Anti-matter laser

There's no such thing as anti-photon.

>PC-98 characters

TVTropes has a good expression for it: they were "put on a bus". Instead of outright making the early immature works non-canon, the author simply keeps those aspects out of sight, like almost everything in the first years of Peanuts.

I won't be surprised to see Shinki in HM's Makai stage background.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #272 on: May 12, 2013, 11:47:06 PM »
I love how you guys are trying to rule out possible things to come in Touhou 14 with science, in a game where millenia-old little girls are flying around throwing magic bullets at each other.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

nintendonut888

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #273 on: May 13, 2013, 12:31:43 AM »
>PC-98 debate.

* Donut grumbles

Why are people so dead-set on the idea of PC-98 being non-canon anyway? Think about it: Has there ever been a reason to think they aren't canon other than the fact that the Western Touhou Community has always said that? The absolute best you can come up with is that almost none of the characters from back then have returned, but, uh, that's about as logical as saying high school isn't canon because you haven't seen any of the people from back then since graduation. That interview with ZUN can be taken to mean that (although I've read a translation in the past that made the critical sentence take on a different meaning), but the idea has been around longer than that interview.

Also I have to laugh at the equally dated idea that PC-98 is darker than Windows. Have you read the translations? While the atmosphere of the games themselves are a little dark at times, the plots are all irreverent and silly. The tense secret behind the yin-yang orbs is to turn into a cat for Kanako's sake!

Okay, Donut PC-98 rant over for now. But what does this have to do with DDC anyway?
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Mayson

  • The future... A new age!
Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #274 on: May 13, 2013, 12:52:45 AM »
>PC-98 debate.

* Donut grumbles

Why are people so dead-set on the idea of PC-98 being non-canon anyway? Think about it: Has there ever been a reason to think they aren't canon other than the fact that the Western Touhou Community has always said that? The absolute best you can come up with is that almost none of the characters from back then have returned, but, uh, that's about as logical as saying high school isn't canon because you haven't seen any of the people from back then since graduation. That interview with ZUN can be taken to mean that (although I've read a translation in the past that made the critical sentence take on a different meaning), but the idea has been around longer than that interview.

Also I have to laugh at the equally dated idea that PC-98 is darker than Windows. Have you read the translations? While the atmosphere of the games themselves are a little dark at times, the plots are all irreverent and silly. The tense secret behind the yin-yang orbs is to turn into a cat for Kanako's sake!

Okay, Donut PC-98 rant over for now. But what does this have to do with DDC anyway?
Who said that PC-98 is non-canon? What I have been argueing the entire last page was that it actually very much is and others have also said that. :3

And we got to the topic because of speculations regarding a few characters from that time that would fit DDCs theme and might reappear.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #275 on: May 13, 2013, 12:57:56 AM »
Mmm, well alright. Still, the issue does bug me, and it's kinda a sore spot with me.

And what theme are we talking about? It's rather hard to tell just from the given information what the theme of this game will be. Besides being based on Darius Gaiden, that is.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Imosa

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #276 on: May 13, 2013, 01:12:33 AM »
I love how you guys are trying to rule out possible things to come in Touhou 14 with science, in a game where millenia-old little girls are flying around throwing magic bullets at each other.
That's not what we're doing. We're just talking about how we feel about the idea of antimatter in touhou. I wouldn't like it for reasons I've stated, and it looks like Validon and Kosachi have reasons for not liking it much either. I think the scenario is unlikely, but if Touhou 14 comes out and I hear Marisa is firing antimatter, I'm gonna do a head-desk, because that's just weird.

And what theme are we talking about? It's rather hard to tell just from the given information what the theme of this game will be. Besides being based on Darius Gaiden, that is.
Some ideas are that gemstones and mirrors will be a theme. Also the corruption of weapons has been posited to be the work of the big bad.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:15:53 AM by Imosa »

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #277 on: May 13, 2013, 01:14:40 AM »
That's not what we're doing. We're just talking about how we feel about the idea of antimatter in touhou. I wouldn't like it, and it doesn't look like Validon and Kosachi would like it much either. I think the scenario is unlikely, but if Touhou 14 comes out and I hear Marisa is firing antimatter, I'm gonna do a head-desk, because that's just weird.

Right, and the reasons you're using is these things make no sense scientifically, which is a really weird complaint for a gameworld based entirely on *~*~M A G I C~*~*

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #278 on: May 13, 2013, 01:34:37 AM »
- character fanboy arguments
- heavy analysis of what is really obviously Sakuya's knife
- anti-matter Master Sparks

This is bringing me back to the pre-Brawl days. I've forgotten how silly people's speculations are in the pre-release days of a game. I mean, forgive me, I haven't been around for a Touhou release so I guess I'm not used to it, but jeez.

Kami-sama!

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #279 on: May 13, 2013, 01:46:05 AM »
I take a break after feeling ashamed and stupid about not knowing how to download a game and i come back to this. :o
Oh well, I'm planning on trying again anyways.

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #280 on: May 13, 2013, 01:50:02 AM »
Right, and the reasons you're using is these things make no sense scientifically, which is a really weird complaint for a gameworld based entirely on *~*~M A G I C~*~*
You can read my post again, there's no science in there. I draw conclusions from the assumptions that antimatter is the opposite of matter and that when the two meet they annihilate each other and the only reason I assume those things is because that's what antimatter traditionally is.
If ZUN puts an antimatter masterspark into the game it'll get really annoying to talk about because this in-game thing will have the same name as this other out-of-game thing.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:53:00 AM by Imosa »

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #281 on: May 13, 2013, 01:53:00 AM »
You can read my post again, there's no science in there. I draw logical conclusions from the assumptions that antimatter is the opposite of matter and that when the two meet they annihilate each other and the only reason I assume those things is because that's what antimatter traditionally is.

Yep, no science there, not one bit, no sir, I done got told.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #282 on: May 13, 2013, 01:56:50 AM »
Yep, no science there, not one bit, no sir, I done got told.
No, there isn't any science there. Science is based off of empirical evidence, not the ideas of a culture built up around fantasy.

Formless God

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #283 on: May 13, 2013, 01:59:52 AM »
Remind me why any of these matter in a video game again.

Tengukami

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #284 on: May 13, 2013, 02:02:07 AM »
No, there isn't any science there. Science is based off of empirical evidence, not the ideas of a culture built up around fantasy.

Alright, now I have no idea what you're going on about, but you clearly cannot take even the mildest teasing without responding like some kind of robot.

It doesn't matter what matter and antimatter do when they meet. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense, isn't scientifically sound or "logical". It's Gensokyo, the place where logic goes to die.

:kanakodwi:

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #285 on: May 13, 2013, 02:28:35 AM »
Man some of ya'll are picky.

I'm a simple man. I just want my FLAMETHROWER. :getdown:

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #286 on: May 13, 2013, 02:30:18 AM »
Alright, now I have no idea what you're going on about, but you clearly cannot take even the mildest teasing without responding like some kind of robot.

It doesn't matter what matter and antimatter do when they meet. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense, isn't scientifically sound or "logical". It's Gensokyo, the place where logic goes to die.

:kanakodwi:

Thank you. Thank you very much, Tengukami. Those are exactly my thoughts, I'm glad someone else feels the same way as me. We must remember that only a few people values science in Gensokyo, which is a place ruled by magic.

Man some of ya'll are picky.

I'm a simple man. I just want my FLAMETHROWER. :getdown:

Yeah, I also agree we should simply focus on taking it easy,

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
  • is indistinguishable from magic
Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #287 on: May 13, 2013, 02:37:24 AM »
Yeah, I'm a bit confused as well. Excuse me if I get caught up in trying to explain things.
...
So, you know what all of this talk of castles and mirrors and gems is reminding me of? This. Could there be anything to that?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:39:04 AM by Imosa »

Mayson

  • The future... A new age!
Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #288 on: May 13, 2013, 02:41:24 AM »
- character fanboy arguments
- heavy analysis of what is really obviously Sakuya's knife
- anti-matter Master Sparks

This is bringing me back to the pre-Brawl days. I've forgotten how silly people's speculations are in the pre-release days of a game. I mean, forgive me, I haven't been around for a Touhou release so I guess I'm not used to it, but jeez.
Well, we do have to talk about something, right?  :V I mean, these forums would be empty without a bit of material to talk about!

AnonymousPondScum

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #289 on: May 13, 2013, 02:51:24 AM »
Thank you. Thank you very much, Tengukami. Those are exactly my thoughts, I'm glad someone else feels the same way as me. We must remember that only a few people values science in Gensokyo, which is a place ruled by magic.

Also worthy noting is that the science that DOES exist in Gensokyo seems to be a mixture of theories that people thought would be possible but never panned out (cold nuclear fusion) and theoretical physics (the improbability whatsit that I think is how the Lunarians got to the moon in the first place.

Quote
Yeah, I also agree we should simply focus on taking it easy,


Maiden Synnae ミ☆

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #290 on: May 13, 2013, 03:17:29 AM »
Well, we do have to talk about something, right?  :V I mean, these forums would be empty without a bit of material to talk about!
Touhou is a pretty active series, and it probably won't die so soon. So... I'm sure we'll keep having plenty of material to talk about for a long time. :D

@Wild Witchy West:
lol. I wonder if we'll get to see some fanart of Marisa cosplaying Pyro from tf2. :V

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Imosa

  • Any sufficiently advanced technology
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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #291 on: May 13, 2013, 03:19:45 AM »
There should just be a Marisa skin for the TF2 Pyro.

Zakari

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #292 on: May 13, 2013, 04:22:08 AM »
This is how i describe touhou music.

TH06 - Kinda dark music
TH07 - Fantastic music
TH08 - All i can hear were piano sounds.
TH09 - Relaxing music
TH10 - Natural music
TH11 - A kinda bit suspicious sounds
TH12 - A very strong and loud music
TH13 - The music is so silly (especially Futatsuiwa from Sado)


then what will be TH14 music sounds like?

Formless God

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #293 on: May 13, 2013, 04:27:04 AM »
(especially Futatsuiwa from Sado)
no, your face is silly

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #294 on: May 13, 2013, 06:49:52 AM »
Remind me why any of these matter in a video game again.

Remind me why speculation is a bad thing? Let's just close the forum then.
And touhou is not just a videogame anymore, what appears in games can appears in books,music, anything.

Oh and magic is science. ( http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Magician )

(Nice edit in  the message under mine btw, looks likes you cant assume the (weird) rage inside you.)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:16:43 AM by MisterOrange »

Formless God

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #295 on: May 13, 2013, 07:02:39 AM »
Remind me why speculation is a bad thing? Let's just close the forum then.
It was all fine up to this point:
Quote
If ZUN puts an antimatter masterspark into the game it'll get really annoying to talk about
A game element is now something for us to "talk about" like a bunch of physicist wannabes. I'm sure ZUN is very grateful to know that he worked his programmer ass off to please people who care more about hurr durr realism and logic than the game itself.

And touhou is not just a videogame anymore
Oh and magic is science.
Simply epic.

I edited it in case people don't catch the point. You can feel free to reply now.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 07:40:22 AM by Formless Void »

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #296 on: May 13, 2013, 08:31:12 AM »
I just don't want it to be actually antimatter because those Marisa fanboys will inevitably start bringing that up in future powerlevel debates.  :V

Why, yes, I'm a believer of a "low powerlevel" Touhou universe myself.

Helepolis

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Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #297 on: May 13, 2013, 09:08:56 AM »
Close the forum?! I need this job! I need to feed my family of siege engines. I need to maintain the SDM and the greedy mistress living inside.

I am sure we are all trying to have a nice time discussing things regarding the upcoming demo. Whether they are silly or non-related to video games or Touhou itself, the idea is to have fun. As Tengukami / Ammy has pointed out, some people are slightly taking this too serious.

Take it easy! as almost every 4koma of Tani Takeshi says.

(logically powerlevel discussions and bad trolling/thread shitting is frowned upon)



Mayson

  • The future... A new age!
Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #298 on: May 13, 2013, 09:11:17 AM »
I just don't want it to be actually antimatter because those Marisa fanboys will inevitably start bringing that up in future powerlevel debates.  :V

Why, yes, I'm a believer of a "low powerlevel" Touhou universe myself.
It doesn't matter though. You will never be able to change the way people perceive Touhou. That is after all what gives Touhou a quality many other video games don't have - You can imagine it as whatever you want it to be. It's a dream world. It's how the man himself calls his creation. He has given some lore, but he usually won't butt in if you make something weird out of it (unlike most others would with their own creations).

Some people have a rather dark image of Touhou, others view it as silly or carefree. You can any time go ahead and draw a few fairies doing some flower viewing or shooting little pellets of plastic, if that is what your image of it is. And you certainly shouldn't be bothered by what another fan thinks of the games or the powerlevel of characters. You cannot dictate others what to think and they can't do that to you, either. If a "powerlevel" discussion distresses you, just don't participate in that discussion. Simple solution to a simple problem. Not everyone is holding these discussions anyway. :3

Not to forget that those powerlevel discussions can be really void in their meaning anyway, as Touhou still is a game. It shouldn't be forgotten (but often is) that it will eventually involve game elements that are there for balance reasons (countering any spellcard with a "bomb" for instance looks more like a gameplay element than a lore element; a few select characters beating up entire Temples and hells and alternative dimensions filled with Youkai while exhausted does, too).


Specifically for the Antimatter topic - The game is set in an alternative reality with alternative history, alternative sources of energy and power. If ZUN said Gensokyo has more gravity than the real world for some reason it would be that way, because it's not a realistic setting but an alternative setting. It is already a fantasy setting anyway, given that a lot of fable and fairytale creatures appear in it. Nothing would go haywire because ZUN gives the word Antimatter a different definition than our worlds Antimatter. I mean, Utsuho is a walking nuclear core kind of, that could also never exist in reality. Just think of that and then take it easy. :P

Re: 東方Project 第14弾の情報です - Double Dealing Character
« Reply #299 on: May 13, 2013, 10:15:40 AM »
It doesn't matter though. You will never be able to change the way people perceive Touhou. That is after all what gives Touhou a quality many other video games don't have - You can imagine it as whatever you want it to be. It's a dream world. It's how the man himself calls his creation. He has given some lore, but he usually won't butt in if you make something weird out of it (unlike most others would with their own creations).

Some people have a rather dark image of Touhou, others view it as silly or carefree. You can any time go ahead and draw a few fairies doing some flower viewing or shooting little pellets of plastic, if that is what your image of it is. And you certainly shouldn't be bothered by what another fan thinks of the games or the powerlevel of characters. You cannot dictate others what to think and they can't do that to you, either. If a "powerlevel" discussion distresses you, just don't participate in that discussion. Simple solution to a simple problem. Not everyone is holding these discussions anyway. :3

Not to forget that those powerlevel discussions can be really void in their meaning anyway, as Touhou still is a game. It shouldn't be forgotten (but often is) that it will eventually involve game elements that are there for balance reasons (countering any spellcard with a "bomb" for instance looks more like a gameplay element than a lore element; a few select characters beating up entire Temples and hells and alternative dimensions filled with Youkai while exhausted does, too).


Specifically for the Antimatter topic - The game is set in an alternative reality with alternative history, alternative sources of energy and power. If ZUN said Gensokyo has more gravity than the real world for some reason it would be that way, because it's not a realistic setting but an alternative setting. It is already a fantasy setting anyway, given that a lot of fable and fairytale creatures appear in it. Nothing would go haywire because ZUN gives the word Antimatter a different definition than our worlds Antimatter. I mean, Utsuho is a walking nuclear core kind of, that could also never exist in reality. Just think of that and then take it easy. :P

Powerlevel debates can have meaning when it's related to a fanfic though. Meaning, the author may take the arguments presented and put it in the story.