東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[Gpop]

Okay so here's what I see from the trailer

- Bottom gauges are how much magic they can use, like the other fighters. No surprise.
- Top bars are what really interest me. Seems to merge both meter AND health. White bars are your health, while the red is your super meter. What I can speculate is that the less health you have, the more likely you'll have the super meter at the ready (at least more than half your health). That or, worst case scenario, the less health you have, the less likely you'd get super meter (which would really be bad for the losing player =/)

[fondue]

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
click the text if it's not obvious
I jizzed when I saw this. Aerial combat, pretty graphics, awesome background, awesome everything. I love you Japan.


e: Ffffffuuuuu- the video was already posted here :qq:

[shadowbringer]

opinions:
- needs more speed (for combos and movement; I think that a temporary speed boost or thrust -- the equivalents of forward dash and forward hop -- would be nice and not gamebreaking)
- needs more melee range (it seems like everyone's a pixie, that feeling when you try to use normal moves in SF games and then try them in the MvsC series)
- needs more pattern dodging (needs more full shmupping -- note that, since there seems to be no graze, bullet startups could be increased, and there could be an instant block mechanic or something to negate or reduce the block damage)
- needs more interesting mechanics (can't say that without thinking of Arcana Heart's arcanas or BlazBlue's drives)
- needs a grappler character

[Kilgamayan]

The concept of mid-flight daze seems weird.

[Amraphenson]

No, no it doesn't. It doesn't try emphasize zoning, or rushdown, or abare, or oki, or anything. Anyone can tell that Soku was not created with a competitive mindset. Just look at the random spellcards meter and the lack of a functional mixup game and the brainless okizeme. It's like Super Smash Bros Brawl; sure you can make tournaments for it and stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that it's made to be a party game.

That doesn't change the fact that it was designed with about half a dozen escape mechanisms to supposedly ensure you were never stuck in melee range pressure for very long. Whether or not a game was designed for competitive play or not has no bearing on what kind of playstyle it has; it just so happens that the intended playstyle for Soku is completely ignored at high level play. Melty Blood wasn't intended for tournaments either, but it got played enough that stuff like VAkiha's passive proximity hp drain got removed, and look what that's done to boost the popularity of Melty Blood and Tsukihime

[Hakurou Tengu]

Looks beautiful and the music sounds amazing. The gameplay is certainly different, but I think it's too early to say it's bad or great. I never was really good at stringing together combos is SWR/UNL, so I'm hoping spellcards aren't dependent on that... If they are, looks like I'll have to actually *gasp* get good at the game! Though I don't exactly feel you have to be good at a game to enjoy it, however, if the use of spellcards require it, that could be interesting~ HYPE x9001

[Kosachi]

I have a hard time seeing a fighter take place only in the air, but it kinda makes sense considering who's fighting. Tasofro never made anything below par so I'm definitely looking forward to it!

[Starxsword]

- needs more speed (for combos and movement; I think that a temporary speed boost or thrust -- the equivalents of forward dash and forward hop -- would be nice and not gamebreaking)

Not sure if you saw it, but there is a dash.

The bars are very weird. I can't say I can tell the victory conditions by just watching this. There are too many meters to worry about. The vote meter on the character's icon. The 3 bars on the top and the bar on the bottom. The bar on the bottom is the easiest to tell, as that looks like a spirit meter.

[Imosa]

I have a hard time seeing a fighter take place only in the air, but it kinda makes sense considering who's fighting. Tasofro never made anything below par so I'm definitely looking forward to it!

Why would it be hard?
Also I still don't think this is really taking place in the air from a mechanical stand point.

[Zil]

Why would it be hard?
Also I still don't think this is really taking place in the air from a mechanical stand point.

I agree that there seem to be two three levels that they switch between. That's for the best though, as lining up with your enemy just to hit them at short range would be annoying, especially if their reach is much wider than yours. Maybe it's also possible to land, though I suspect not.

My impression from the looks of it is that they're trying to make it even more projectile oriented. The melee attacks didn't seem to have much reach either. It also seemed like Reimu was much more mobile than Marisa, though that may not mean much. Something that worries me is having an advantage at lower/higher elevations, so both players spend the whole game at the top or bottom.

[Imosa]

I agree that there seem to be two three levels that they switch between. That's for the best though, as lining up with your enemy just to hit them at short range would be annoying, especially if their reach is much wider than yours. Maybe it's also possible to land, though I suspect not.

My impression from the looks of it is that they're trying to make it even more projectile oriented. The melee attacks didn't seem to have much reach either. It also seemed like Reimu was much more mobile than Marisa, though that may not mean much. Something that worries me is having an advantage at lower/higher elevations, so both players spend the whole game at the top or bottom.

A friend of mine also thought there were two or three levels but I only see one. There are times when they stay at a lower or higher elevation but only when delivering or being hit by attacks, otherwise they're pulled back to the center.

[Zil]

A friend of mine also thought there were two or three levels but I only see one. There are times when they stay at a lower or higher elevation but only when delivering or being hit by attacks, otherwise they're pulled back to the center.

You know, I think you're right actually. I thought what Reimu was doing at some points (like the very start of the video) seemed like switching levels, but she was really just jumping and diving. Yeah, seems like it's only one level.

[Savory]

Though while it was amazing and all, am I the only one who found some of their movements jittery? It's most likely a minor thing that'll be smoothed out later on...

[Kosachi]

My impression from the looks of it is that they're trying to make it even more projectile oriented. The melee attacks didn't seem to have much reach either. It also seemed like Reimu was much more mobile than Marisa, though that may not mean much. Something that worries me is having an advantage at lower/higher elevations, so both players spend the whole game at the top or bottom.

The problem with that is we might see a ridiculous amount amount of spam like what tended to happen in UNL/SWR. IF something can be exploited, people will, and that can get very problematic very fast. And I can see the tiers, but the only thing that worries me is that we might get a graze like in UNL/SWR, just on steroids.

[Grand Octopus]

Holy shit Touhou Psychic Force get hype

[Sanger Zonvolt]

New sprites, completely new system, a fucking timer! Wow, I'm so looking forward to this.

[game2011]

How were the demos for the previous fighting games like?  I mean what contents did they have?

Thanks in advance!

[HGH]

From what I remember of SWR's demo, it had a small, self-contained prologue to the main story mode of that game that you can't see anywhere else. You just used Reimu and fought three battles.
The playable characters were Reimu, Marisa, Alice and Aya, so I'm expecting two new characters to be revealed by December.

[cuc]

IaMP and SWR each gets 3 demos: "performance test version", Comiket demo, web downloadable demo. Performance test versions tend to have some rudimentary functions; the first Comiket demo has a few characters; the web downloadable demo has more story. I think IaMP web demo has Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Youmu?

EDIT: Wrong and wrong. See posts below.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I think IaMP web demo has Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya and Youmu?

Reimu, Marisa, Alice and Youmu*

There might be only 4 characters on HM's demo as well, or even fewer... considering the sprites are HI-RES and thus, might take more time to finish.

[KrackoCloud]

I think what interests me a lot about this is that now you could have groundslam combos that pretty much work just like wall combos.

[cuc]

IaMP and SWR each gets 3 demos: "performance test version", Comiket demo, web downloadable demo.

Actually it seems they only have 2 demos each.

IaMP's Reitaisai 1 demo (April, 2004) is the "performance test", and only has Reimu and Marisa.
IaMP's "Trial Plus" demo was released on C66 (August, 2004). It might be the same thing as the web demo, or not substantially different from that.
IaMP was released on C67 (December, 2004).

SWR's C72 demo (August, 2007) has the same characters as the web demo: Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Aya. Apparently this demo caused some fan outrage.
SWR's web demo was released on April, 2008, just before Reitaisai 5.
SWR was released on Reitaisai 5 (May, 2008).

I suppose Alice being a unique character, is especially suited for demo.

[Serela]

By the way, Alice in th08 is absolute crap. (personal opinion)

Nah it's really more of a fact, she has the worst range in the entire series (Needle Reimus are significantly wider), her DAMAGE isn't even all that good despite this, and her bomb is super short and does next to zero damage. Isn't it sad, Alice? The two things going for her is that she can hit both Mokou and her wings at once for good damage, and that her laser lingers for a second after changing characters, allowing Malice Cannon shenanigans.

BUT THIS IS NOT A TH8 THREAD SO

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the 3 special things in the bottom corners for each character. Reimu's Orbs and Marisa's stars. They light up or go dim sometimes.

As for IaMP discussion, it's fabulously balanced (Apart from really bad Meiling, everyone is almost the same on the tier list that was made for it- there's like 2 characters that are sliiiiiightly higher, but it's barely anything!) and certainly far more technical and such. The downside is that it's not good for casual play, like... at all. Matches are kind of eh and drag on if you don't know what you're doing, and it's not easy to learn, especially for people new to fighting games in general. Even if you know one character pretty well, the others are still a mystery, unlike 12.3 where you can play anyone roughly the same and it works out okayish.

They're kind of like two ends of a spectrum- IaMP is a great game for higher level play, but awful for entry-level people/casuals/etc, and 12.3 is the opposite, as even if you play high-level it's easy to tell it's not designed for it, and deck/weather randomness can just be a wrench- not to mention the silliness like average-grade players being able to take out pros being an example of how the mechanics just don't lend themselves to tournament-grade play well.

...uh. In any case. Excited about this game! :V

[game2011]

SWR's C72 demo (August, 2007) has the same characters as the web demo: Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Aya. Apparently this demo caused some fan outrage.

What happened?

Thanks in advance!

[cuc]

No idea. Probably due to the game being both different and unpolished, you know, the usual SWR criticism.

I'm also told that the reaction towards the C72 demo caused Tasofro to delay and/or make important changes to the game, but can't find any evidence for that.

[fondue]

I wish they made the game with a card system like IaMP's and SWR's combined. You would press a key to activate the card and for some time you would have a chance to activate the card with a certain combo. It would make the game slighlty more challenging and different but system cards and skill cards you would have to press only once to use them.

[Clarste]

The main problem with the declaration system is that, well, you have to declare them. Which means your opponent knows exactly what you're trying to do and can just play defensive until the timer runs out. From what I've seen of IaMP tournaments, spellcard declarations were only used for the healing they provided, and no one ever actually used the supers. Which, speaking as an audience member, is just sad. In SWR, where they can be used at any moment, there's less incentive to hang back and do nothing, which naturally creates more openings to actually use them.

Or I guess you could make them ridiculously overpowered such that it's worth doing them even if they're blocked, but that has its own problems.

[fondue]

The main problem with the declaration system is that, well, you have to declare them. Which means your opponent knows exactly what you're trying to do and can just play defensive until the timer runs out. From what I've seen of IaMP tournaments, spellcard declarations were only used for the healing they provided, and no one ever actually used the supers. Which, speaking as an audience member, is just sad. In SWR, where they can be used at any moment, there's less incentive to hang back and do nothing, which naturally creates more openings to actually use them.

Or I guess you could make them ridiculously overpowered such that it's worth doing them even if they're blocked, but that has its own problems.

Or just bring back the SWR spell system and make special attacks hard to use :V

[Clarste]

Or just bring back the SWR spell system and make special attacks hard to use :V

I think you'd piss off a lot of people by suggesting that they intentionally make the game harder to play.

[fondue]

I think you'd piss off a lot of people by suggesting that they intentionally make the game harder to play.

Well, harder then, but not too hard.