Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade - I'm hopelessly in love

[Clarste]

I am wondering when and why Tasofro decided that Nitori was not merely irritable and reclusive but insanely brash and borderline antisocial.

ZUN writes the dialog. I assume. I mean, if he's naming the spellcards, it seems like they're going out of their way to include him in the writing. SoPM says she's arrogant and looks down on others, so it's not unreasonable.

[AnonymousPondScum]

ZUN writes the dialog. I assume. I mean, if he's naming the spellcards, it seems like they're going out of their way to include him in the writing. SoPM says she's arrogant and looks down on others, so it's not unreasonable.

Terrific. Way to write meaningful conflict, ZUN. :V

[Clarste]

Terrific. Way to write meaningful conflict, ZUN. :V

What meaningful conflict? The whole thing was never supposed to be a meaningful conflict. The "religious war" was basically resolved in SoPM when they sat down and talked to each other. HM is just about Kokoro's power going out of control and a bunch of people trying to take advantage of it.

[AnonymousPondScum]

What meaningful conflict? The whole thing was never supposed to be a meaningful conflict. The "religious war" was basically resolved in SoPM when they sat down and talked to each other. HM is just about Kokoro's power going out of control and a bunch of people trying to take advantage of it.

I was joking. I was using sarcasm.

You see, between her awkward moveset/powers and her bad attitude (without Seiga's class or Tenshi's bravado, at that), I'm not exactly thrilled that she made it in and not, say, Momiji. Or even one of the Aki sisters as an obligatory joke character.

All of the other characters in HM have at least some sort of interesting angle and interaction with the rest of the playables. Nitori just comes across as highly self-centered and with no real goal beyond ripping off or annoying as many people as possible.

The punchline is that I am annoyed that she made it into the game and that fan demand apparently requested it despite her developing an increasingly terrible personality, when there were other MoF/Tengu Mountain characters that could have filled her slot.

[Clarste]

I was joking. I was using sarcasm.

You see, between her awkward moveset/powers and her bad attitude (without Seiga's class or Tenshi's bravado, at that), I'm not exactly thrilled that she made it in and not, say, Momiji. Or even one of the Aki sisters as an obligatory joke character.

All of the other characters in HM have at least some sort of interesting angle and interaction with the rest of the playables. Nitori just comes across as highly self-centered and with no real goal beyond ripping off or annoying as many people as possible.

Honestly, Nitori feels more relevant to me than Ichirin or Futo. Those two literally have no purpose whatsoever, since they're just Byakuren and Miko's lackeys who don't accomplish anything. You could write them out of the story with no changes whatsoever. At least Nitori does something that gets referred to in Kokoro's character development.

Well, I take that back, Ichirin added that funny bit about fighting for the title of the strongest.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Honestly, Nitori feels more relevant to me than Ichirin or Futo. Those two literally have no purpose whatsoever, since they're just Byakuren and Miko's lackeys who don't accomplish anything. You could write them out of the story with no changes whatsoever. At least Nitori does something that gets referred to in Kokoro's character development.

Well, I take that back, Ichirin added that funny bit about fighting for the title of the strongest.

Where and what does Kokoro say?

And Hinacle and I would like to politely disagree with you on Ichirin and Futo not being relevant, so I request that you not speak in such absolutes since there is obviously not consensus here.

[Hinacle]

Honestly, Nitori feels more relevant to me than Ichirin or Futo. Those two literally have no purpose whatsoever, since they're just Byakuren and Miko's lackeys who don't accomplish anything. You could write them out of the story with no changes whatsoever. At least Nitori does something that gets referred to in Kokoro's character development.

Well, I take that back, Ichirin added that funny bit about fighting for the title of the strongest.

She does...? Are you talking about Kokoro understanding why people in Gensokyo fight?

And Hinacle and I would like to politely disagree with you on Ichirin and Futo not being relevant, so I request that you not speak in such absolutes since there is obviously not consensus here.

This. Saying "Byakuren and Miko's lackeys who don't accomplish anything. You could write them out of the story with no changes whatsoever." is going too far.

[Clarste]

Where and what does Kokoro say?

And Hinacle and I would like to politely disagree with you on Ichirin and Futo not being relevant, so I request that you not speak in such absolutes since there is obviously not consensus here.

What part of "feels... to me" makes you think I'm talking in absolutes? The fact about the writing of the story is just a fact though. Seriously, just delete every scene including them and the plot still makes perfect sense. As seen in their endings they literally accomplish nothing. Except the bit about the title for the strongest.

By contrast, the fact that Nitori was selling masks to Kokoro at the shrine was the key to Mamizou's realization that Miko and Byakuren's solutions weren't working.

[Hinacle]

What part of "feels... to me" makes you think I'm talking in absolutes? The fact about the writing of the story is just a fact though. Seriously, just delete every scene including them and the plot still makes perfect sense. Except the bit about the title for the strongest.

By contrast, the fact that Nitori was selling masks to Kokoro at the shrine was the key to Mamizou's realization that Miko and Byakuren's solutions weren't working.

I'm sorry, but how did the masks help? The only interaction Mamizou and Nitori get is during Nitori's story mode and I don't see any mention of the fact that she sells masks helped Mamizou reach that conclusion? Is it in one of the endings?

[Clarste]

I'm sorry, but how did the masks help? The only interaction Mamizou and Nitori get is during Nitori's story mode and I don't see any mention of the fact that she sells masks helped Mamizou reach that conclusion? Is it in one of the endings?

She talks to Reimu about it. Because Nitori set up her stall at Reimu's shrine. Which is what she spent the route accomplishing. Unlike Futo and Ichirin who literally do nothing except waste a bunch of time. That is an actual fact about their routes. They accomplish nothing, and their endings make a joke about it.

[Hinacle]

She talks to Reimu about it. Because Nitori set up her stall at Reimu's shrine. Which is what she spent the route accomplishing. Unlike Futo and Ichirin who literally do nothing except waste a bunch of time. That is an actual fact about their routes. They accomplish nothing, and their endings make a joke about it.

Oooh, now I see mention of it. I wasn't paying attention to Reimu's part in Mami's scenario. At some point, the main reason why I feel that Nitori is forced is because she has no real reason to be involved or was expected to be involved like Marisa. Futo and Ichirin are as you said, lackeys for Byakuren and Miko. They have a connection to the whole religious theme. Koishi has ties to Kokoro because she found the mask of hope, but Nitori was accidently involved. As least it comes off to me that way because Mamizou says:

I see, you wanted to pull out.
To pull out everyone's shirikodama.

(which is semi-true)

If a nonreligious youkai is fine,
then even I have a chance.

I was actually hoping to resolve this mess by having someone be a sacrifice,
but instead I get this faithless kappa.
I suppose interesting things do happen.

Wait. Was Mamizou going to make someone become a mask of hope?!

And I think the part where Al was referring to absolutes was when you said this:

Those two literally have no purpose whatsoever, since they're just Byakuren and Miko's lackeys who don't accomplish anything. You could write them out of the story with no changes whatsoever.

It just comes off as bit too harshly worded imo.

[Clarste]

Oooh, now I see mention of it. I wasn't paying attention to Reimu's part in Mami's scenario. At some point, the main reason why I feel that Nitori is forced is because she has no real reason to be involved or was expected to be involved like Marisa. Futo and Ichirin are as you said, lackeys for Byakuren and Miko. They have a connection to the whole religious theme. Koishi has ties to Kokoro because she found the mask of hope, but Nitori was accidently involved. As least it comes off to me that way because Mamizou says: (which is semi-true)Wait. Was Mamizou going to make someone become a mask of hope?!

Well, maybe she was forced, and I won't deny that, but she was better integrated into the story than the others. It kinda makes sense that Futo would participate (Ichirin not so much since it required her to intentionally ignore Byakuren's orders), but on the other hand if they weren't here we wouldn't feel like we were missing anything, assuming other characters replaced them to keep the total count the same.

Marisa also seems kind of forced for the same reasons as Nitori (actually, Nitori acts a lot like Marisa, except less funny, she even uses "da ze" once), but I suppose it just wouldn't be Touhou without Marisa.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Well, maybe she was forced, and I won't deny that, but she was better integrated into the story than the others. It kinda makes sense that Futo would participate (Ichirin not so much since it required her to intentionally ignore Byakuren's orders), but on the other hand if they weren't here we wouldn't feel like we were missing anything, assuming other characters replaced them to keep the total count the same.

Given Ichirin seems to have gotten somewhat more aggressive I think Ichirin ignoring Byakuren's orders seems within the realm of possibility.

And trust me, some of us feel the game's already missing some vital things as is. :V

[Clarste]

Given Ichirin seems to have gotten somewhat more aggressive I think Ichirin ignoring Byakuren's orders seems within the realm of possibility.

And trust me, some of us feel the game's already missing some vital things as is. :V

Well, would you complain if we had Momiji instead of Futo?

[AnonymousPondScum]

Well, would you complain if we had Momiji instead of Futo?

Probably, because then we wouldn't have a balanced amount of playable Buddhists versus playable number of Taoists.

Admittedly I didn't know the holy-war-such-as-it-was basically began and ended with SoPM. That was a lot of text to read and I mainly was looking at the character profiles.

[Hinacle]

Well, maybe she was forced, and I won't deny that, but she was better integrated into the story than the others. It kinda makes sense that Futo would participate (Ichirin not so much since it required her to intentionally ignore Byakuren's orders), but on the other hand if they weren't here we wouldn't feel like we were missing anything, assuming other characters replaced them to keep the total count the same.

Ichirin definitely struck me as off because even Mamizou!Byakuren calls her out on her order disobeying.
Now that I look at it, Futo was following Miko's mindset of helping the humans albeit in a less beat-y kind of way and in a more peaceful talking it out way. The only thing I can say for sure that Futo contributed story-wise and character development-wise is that Miko and Futo have different views on how to handle things. Miko was like "I shall beat you to prove my religion is superior!" while Futo is trying to bring them the religions together to solve the incident rather than trying to split them up and handle it individually. Also that Ichirin is very anti-Tao. Kokoro-wise she brings nothin' to the table.

[ElGreko]

It's a Tanuki. Everyone on that stage is a tanuki cheering for Mamizou. They reveal themselves in the night version of the stage.

Are you sure? This is what you believe or it's written somewhere?
Almost all tanukis are keeping their tail when changing form.
I personally believe people are just gathering here to assist the match and leaving in the night...

Furthermore, tanukis couldn't know every person's personnality and copy them, like parsee staying far from the group because she's jealous.

By the way, this could be true too, but I don't really think so, can anyone confirm?

Kyouko, what the HELL are you doing?


Just sweeping some grass.

I laughed by the way, I always wondered what was she doing there, maybe she loves too much her broom and keeps the habit to use it all the time...

[Hinacle]

Are you sure? This is what you believe or it's written somewhere?
Almost all tanukis are keeping their tail when changing form.
I personally believe people are just gathering here to assist the match and leaving in the night...

Furthermore, tanukis couldn't know every person's personnality and copy them, like parsee staying far from the group because she's jealous.

By the way, this could be true too, but I don't really think so, can anyone confirm?

Reimu's story states that they are Tanuki.

[Clarste]

Are you sure? This is what you believe or it's written somewhere?
Almost all tanukis are keeping their tail when changing form.
I personally believe people are just gathering here to assist the match and leaving in the night...

Furthermore, tanukis couldn't know every person's personnality and copy them, like parsee staying far from the group because she's jealous.

By the way, this could be true too, but I don't really think so, can anyone confirm?

It's what most of the earlier story routes say, isn't it? Mamizou (in disguise) mysteriously has 100% popularity and the characters complain that no one's supporting them anymore. Then it switches to night and the tanuki come out, which is sort of an "aha" moment.

The later story routes kind of ignore it since the characters don't care about popularity very much.

[ElGreko]

Oh, thanks for the informations, I still can't read the stories because my computer doesn't read the characters, I don't know why, I can see and read everything but the comic-like dialogs between the matches.

[Hinacle]

Oh, thanks for the informations, I still can't read the stories because my computer doesn't read the characters, I don't know why, I can see and read everything but the comic-like dialogs between the matches.

All the stories are translated on the wiki so you can read them there.

[ToyoRai]

Almost all tanukis are keeping their tail when changing form.

Tanukis can change the size of their tail when disguising, meaning that they can disguise as humans quite easily

Also, am I the only one who has noticed that Kyouko's appearance has changed a bit? Her hair is green instead of teal and her dress has shorter sleeves.

[Aya Reiko]

I'm trying to upload a video of a strange glitch I found, but the processing is always stuck at 95%. :/

Edit: I was messing around in Practice Mode when this happened. I used Miko's Last Word on Byakuren, and, well...

side note-- That's the first time I noticed both Aya and Hatate at Byakuren's stage.  I wonder who takes the picture at the end...?

[Clarste]

side note-- That's the first time I noticed both Aya and Hatate at Byakuren's stage.  I wonder who takes the picture at the end...?

Aya's been taking pictures of herself (and speech bubbles, and people's imaginations, and...) ever since BAiJR. I think we can assume either a separation between what we see and the supposed narrative justification for it, or that she has a magic camera. Magic!

[Hinacle]

Aya's been taking pictures of herself (and speech bubbles, and people's imaginations, and...) ever since BAiJR. I think we can assume either a separation between what we see and the supposed narrative justification for it, or that she has a magic camera. Magic!

This is my new headcanon

[Darth_Sirov]

Well, yeah, but it's still silly for one of them to be sweeping grass. It's like trying to sweep a mountain, it's hilarious and weird for anyone watching.

Guess they go at great lengths to try to trick people.

[AnonymousPondScum]

[ElGreko]

Oh, talking about Orin...

[Starxsword]

Where and what does Kokoro say?

After fighitng with Ichirin, Kokoro starts challenging people for the title of the strongest. By the end of Hopeless Masquerade, she has 7 or 9 strongest titles. Depending if you count the final fight as 1 title or 3 titles, since she beats up 3 people at once.

Furthermore, tanukis couldn't know every person's personnality and copy them, like parsee staying far from the group because she's jealous.

Look at the positions of some of the characters. Sunny Milk is afraid of Lily White, she would unlikely be in the same location as Lily White. Satori, Utsuho and Rin aren't grouped together.

[Aqua Soo]

The way I see it Nitori is representing the business/technology/Kappa faction that doesn't give a damn about religions.

Spoiler:

In the endings, we see Hijiri (Buddhism) and Miko (Taoism) providing their solutions to Kokoro's problem. Nitori also provides a solution: buy masks from my stall. CAPITALISM, HO!

As for her awful personality, it was hinted earlier in SoPM. Dialogues in shooters are succinct and don't show that much about Nitori's personality anyway.

Speaking of Nitori, I gave up trying to beat lunatic story mode with Nitori. Non-rechargeable energy + long battles in Story mode don't mix well AT ALL. Oh and losing one life doesn't recharge energy. Oh and Nitori's spell cards are terrible for story mode. GL HF.