Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 209436 times)

Kyo Tanaka

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2015, 11:20:47 PM »
Seems like everyone wants Tewi to be a troll character.

All according to plan?

Prime32

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2015, 11:28:40 PM »
I thought Gensou Shoujo Taisen's take on Tewi was pretty cool.
I'd like to see a "throw random objects" move similar to Judge/Vegetable (plenty of room for gags and references there), or a move that throws rabbits like Waddle Dees/Gordos/Pikmin (maybe you sometimes get a coloured rabbit with identical properties). Weird jump physics (like Kirby, Ness or Yoshi) would also be good, and maybe a damaging taunt.
Dedede's hammer tho  :V
Y'know, if Shinmyoumaru gets in, I'd like to see her get Kirby's Smash 4 hammer (with dark energy instead of fire). The fake Miracle Mallet in ISC was a charge move, and the Sm4sh hammer's Japanese name is
Spoiler:
Oni-Slaying Flame Hammer
after all...



Re: Eiki, I'd say the most important part of her playstyle should be patience. I figure a Rod attack that grows stronger as she takes more damage could work, as could a counter or a Little Mac style mechanic that makes her Rod extremely powerful if you use it at the right time. In any case she seems like she should be tanking attacks through high weight rather than dodging them (the Rod is supposed to be heavy).
Possible weaknesses could include poor edgeguarding ("kicking someone when they're down is improper"), poor recovery ("one should know to accept their loss") or a lack of good KO moves ("winning is not the same as communicating").



On another note, Reimu's grab overpower feels... off somehow. Maybe if it had longer hitstun, and slowly accelerated while not colliding with something?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 11:31:13 PM by Prime32 »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2015, 06:16:21 PM »
I dunno, Eiki doesn't feel to me like a mass tank. And in TH9 her dodge AI is egregious to the point of being kinda infamous on higher levels, so I always figured she was a nimble sort. Though yeah, her rod should have a cool dynamic. (It's only heavy if you're sinful, by the way.)

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2015, 09:53:32 PM »
Hi Guys,

I just secured Medicine a slot (and will be eating ramen noodles for all of the forseeable future) and I was wondering what moveset ideas you guys had? I'm still ruminating... Would love to hear your ideas.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2015, 11:10:45 PM »
It's great to see Medicine appearing in something for once~
Obviously, she'll have to have her poison attacks. Maybe there could be different types that do things apart from slowing opponents down; they could deal damage over time, act as a damage or weight debuff, put them to sleep, etc. She could use mini-Medi too somehow, maybe in a Luma-ish way.
I can't really think of much else to work with, but I feel like a lot of interesting things can be done with her abilities.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #95 on: January 13, 2015, 12:14:15 AM »
Seems PoFV is gonna have a reunion party soon!

As for Eiki, some sort of punisher gimmick might be cool. As the rod is as heavy as the reciever's sins, it might deal more damage to someone who has done the most damage of made the most kills in a match or something.

Since we haven't seen Medicine other than just flying and shooting, maybe some doll-like mechanics in her normals would be cool. Like joints spinning in inhuman ways, and such.

Prime32

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #96 on: January 13, 2015, 01:31:45 AM »
Hi Guys,

I just secured Medicine a slot (and will be eating ramen noodles for all of the forseeable future) and I was wondering what moveset ideas you guys had? I'm still ruminating... Would love to hear your ideas.
I'd say... zoning/stage control specialist? Give her a poison cloud as her main projectile - large, slow, transcendant priority. One of her moves might have extremely long hitstun, while another debuffs the target's speed. Her Down Spell creates a large poison cloud in a fixed position. She might also have the ability to spawn suzuran flowers as "mines" similar to Snake. And of course a lot of her moves inflict damage over time, like Lip's Stick. She needs to get into melee to deliver a KO, but running from her is difficult.

In terms of Final Smashes, I could see something that puts everyone on the stage to sleep (a la Peach), and/or inflicts DoT to everyone on the stage. Maybe something that reverses the other players' controls, though that seems more annoying than anything (and it would work better for someone like Seija or Yukari anyway).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 01:41:26 AM by Prime32 »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #97 on: January 13, 2015, 04:41:13 AM »
Hey guys,

I'm having issues with video, and had issues with uploading a sprite sheet (I was able to rip the sprites but they weren't in sheet form, so I have like 500 files) so here is a link to the Touhou MUGEN compilation that includes Medicine. I realize it's kind of a pain to go through all the trouble of downloading the game though, so I'll keep trying to get footage or a sprite sheet.

Oh, and I like all those ideas you guys mentioned. I was thinking the down B could be a poison field as well.

Here you go:

http://mugenfreeforall.com/index.php?/topic/10996-touhou-all-stars/

Flandre5carlet

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2015, 10:04:27 AM »
I was actually gonna suggest something relatively similar to her MUGEN moveset. It's really fitting for her.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2015, 02:22:12 PM »
Yeah, I think I'm going to use her MUGEN form as a baseline. A good mix of pretty creative uses of her poison clouds.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2015, 03:54:43 PM »
The little + shaped bullets from her PoFV level 1 thing could be a basic shot too, and otherwise flowers. I'd say it'd be nice if a little variation in attacks could be presented rather than just poisonous fog, imo.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2015, 04:36:41 PM »
My only experience with MUGEN is horrible, so I can't contribute there. >< The one Shinki I found was *atrocious*, and the game was irritating to set up...

I'm so thrilled Medicine is here. PoFV unite! She seems like a kind of floaty character. Her poison schtick has so much potential, and she could extend that to be environmentally dominating as well. Block people's exits, leave long-lasting slowing clouds, etc etc. But to get away from the stereotypical stuff for a minute, she could go hog wild with crowd control. Maybe some of her specials have different status effects -- a speedup would cause some characters to feel out of control, while slowdowns would render heavies almost useless (rather like in PoFV!). Stuns, staggers, attack locks, weakens, attack direction/velocity changes...all kinds of stuff like that. Poison doesn't have to be just life decline!

Edit: OH TOUHOU ALL STARS. I couldn't download all the parts of that game because there are I think 2 broken links out of 5 parts or something. If you have the full game, can you dropbox it or something, since it's already free to play?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 05:17:04 PM by Alcoraiden »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2015, 06:30:11 PM »
Sure! I'll try to upload it when I get home. I didn't have any issues with the different parts of the files- maybe they fixed the issue? It's really fun though. The Enemy AI is insane as per usual MUGEN antics, but I love the way they did the characters play. And these ideas are great guys! I'm jotting down lots of great notes.  I like the idea of working some flowers in as well. I want to focus more on the her cute qualities, while still putting some doll-like animations in there.

Definetly should be a bit of variation, not just fog. Maybe up B could be Medicine spinning like a dancing doll and bursting fog from under her? I need to phrase that better. It's in my head, I promise. Maybe I should find a concept artist to help me out...

Oh, and on another note, I'll probably be securing a stage for Medicine as well, Nameless Hill.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 06:31:49 PM by Disgaeafan1 »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2015, 06:32:09 PM »
I'd love to see Higan as a stage for Eiki. The dream world shenanigans from PC98 probably wouldn't make a great stage, but the Lake of Blood and Mugenkan for Yuuka might be nice also.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2015, 02:32:37 AM »
Here's a link to Touhou All Stars. I think I did it right, since I've never put a game on Dropbox before.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x1qzwz3705hhi58/AACxMZvnC-MfVPfOuYZd_HrQa?dl=0

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2015, 09:54:03 AM »
The game files are to big to download as a .zip, and I assume you just put the folder into the Dropbox folder. You'll probably want to archive the folder into a zip, and then put said zip into the Dropbox folder.

N-Forza

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2015, 10:40:58 AM »
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Ruw just tweeted about it, which caught ZUN's attention:

"Ah, that's probably a bad idea..."

Granted, it's nowhere near an official response of any kind, but unless the devs can get something worked out, I imagine that at the very least the crownfunding part will be called off.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2015, 10:59:28 AM »
A tengu both delivers good news and bad news. If any, the responses from audience isn't quite positive.

People are mentioning things like: "Stepping outside doujinwork boundaries" and "becoming addicted to collection of money".  (maybe addicted is too harsh as Drake pointed out)

I am not sure if negative publicity is going to help you pull through.

Granted, it's nowhere near an official response of any kind, but unless the devs can get something worked out, I imagine that at the very least the crownfunding part will be called off.
Let's hope the damage will be minimum. But honestly this was to be expected response eventually. I am kind of iffy also why Saijee never proper answered my question when I had asked: "Why did you launch this funding before getting approval". The only post out there was: "I thought this thoroughly through".

I hope so.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 12:01:25 PM by Helepolis »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2015, 12:08:24 PM »
It doesn't help that the blog post that was linked in that Twitter conversation claims you're developing it for the Wii U:
http://gamesaved.hateblo.jp/entry/touhou-smashbros-wiiu

Might wanna get that cleared up.

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2015, 02:40:52 PM »
I had no idea before this project that the doujin community was so passionate about starting insanely small-scale, no outside help, etc etc. o.O I've heard more "it's not true to Doujin Culture" or some such in the past few days than I've really ever heard...

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2015, 02:43:11 PM »
Huh. This is kind of scary. I guess we'll see what happens?

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2015, 02:49:35 PM »
Saijee needs to get his people on this like dots on dice and do damage control at this point. He promised us he could convince ZUN, now's his chance.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 02:51:14 PM by Alcoraiden »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2015, 03:26:52 PM »
I really hope this Wii U misunderstanding doesn't blow everything to Hell.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2015, 03:27:23 PM »
TO be fair that link zun saw is talking about a wii u version, which was a mistake on the first news article, and he has cleared that up.

Still, should be best to make sure ZUN is fully aware of whats going on.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2015, 03:49:15 PM »
I had no idea before this project that the doujin community was so passionate about starting insanely small-scale, no outside help, etc etc. o.O I've heard more "it's not true to Doujin Culture" or some such in the past few days than I've really ever heard...
There is a reason why people on this forum use the 'STOP HELEPOLIS' joke. If you're unaware: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2932.msg129725.html#msg129725 explains it. I had released a script long long ago on the internet and niconico video and got burned as well for doing that I was young and foolish back then hence why I am approaching my current game with extreme care.

The Doujin community is very serious about Touhou fan work. There is a reason why Reitaisai exists and people will heavily frown upon these kind of incidents. No-outside help is a wrong term to use. If you contact 20 friends to work on a project nobody would care. Not even if you paid them, that is your "own expenses". As we said few pages back, Crowdfunding is a form of external money or in other words: "investment". Hence we initially questioned this.

Anyway I think Saijee is partially being misunderstood (Wiiu part) and partially not carefully approaching this.

Well he got ZUN's attention at least :V
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:51:06 PM by Helepolis »

Alcoraiden

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2015, 04:02:16 PM »
I think there is just some fundamental disconnect between me and this culture. I just can't really fathom why it's a poor idea to allow people to give you monetary help in the beginning. It feels like a pride thing, or elitism, like you're not a "real" doujin artist unless you front all the money yourself (even if you don't have it).

Also, the prevailing attitude seems to be that Japan has the "real" fan culture and we have to obey their general pattern of doing things. (I'm trying to make this distinct from "obeying the artist" which I am not talking about with this point.) I'm not sure this is a good way to look at it, since fans are quite clearly an international thing, and different countries and subgroups have different opinions on how to go about such things. Isn't this a good thing, this kind of diversity?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 04:04:12 PM by Alcoraiden »

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2015, 04:58:45 PM »
I think there is just some fundamental disconnect between me and this culture. I just can't really fathom why it's a poor idea to allow people to give you monetary help in the beginning. It feels like a pride thing, or elitism, like you're not a "real" doujin artist unless you front all the money yourself (even if you don't have it).

Also, the prevailing attitude seems to be that Japan has the "real" fan culture and we have to obey their general pattern of doing things. (I'm trying to make this distinct from "obeying the artist" which I am not talking about with this point.) I'm not sure this is a good way to look at it, since fans are quite clearly an international thing, and different countries and subgroups have different opinions on how to go about such things. Isn't this a good thing, this kind of diversity?
In my opinion, that is a moral discussion between west and east, though that is only half the story/problem. What we're dealing with this incident is copyright and possible breaching ZUN's guidelines for fanwork. We still need to wait what he has to say and thus speculations are kind of void at this point. It can be elitism or pride but Japanese people in general protect ZUN's wishes. He could've simply said: "screw you all, no derived work allowed." and Touhou project would be forgotten very quickly or something. But he didn't and which is probably why people can react upset when people "break the rules".

About monetary help: How do you think people start up a company? For free? If they receive external monetary help, it is always in form of investment and thus there is obvious a shareholding relationship. Like: "I'll grand you 10k investment money to startup your company but I will demand 10k back eventually + 2% of your net profit for the upcoming year" or something (I am bad at this).

Colticide

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2015, 05:29:32 PM »
I think there is just some fundamental disconnect between me and this culture. I just can't really fathom why it's a poor idea to allow people to give you monetary help in the beginning. It feels like a pride thing, or elitism, like you're not a "real" doujin artist unless you front all the money yourself (even if you don't have it).

Also, the prevailing attitude seems to be that Japan has the "real" fan culture and we have to obey their general pattern of doing things. (I'm trying to make this distinct from "obeying the artist" which I am not talking about with this point.) I'm not sure this is a good way to look at it, since fans are quite clearly an international thing, and different countries and subgroups have different opinions on how to go about such things. Isn't this a good thing, this kind of diversity?

While I can't say anything on Japans side, what I can say here in the states how community funded projects have good and bad points to it.

Good point is that we do get games that we normally wouldn't get. Shovel knight is a example of crowd funding going well and we get what was told.

How ever with crowd funding there way too many bad points and examples. In fact its very much like pre ordering. Your paying for a product that doesn't exsist, and with kickstarter your paying for a product to have a chance to exsist. While I trust FSS to get the game done, if we look at some of the biggest failures and mistrust created we can see why there are some that dislike it in the States. Double fine is a good example of a well established company getting a successful kickstarter and ending up losing the trust of most of their backers due to poor choices and money management.

I can't tell you how many times I've talked with people who tell me they want to start crowd funding for a game and I ask them what they have and their experience and they have none. No coding, no story writing, no music history, and no art background. I'm sorry but how can I trust you with my money when you have nothing but an idea? And I hate the excuse of using the money to hire people to do it. If your that passionate about your game, then you should be will to spend your own money to get it done and not others. I've had to spend over $300 on just my programs and I'm still not done getting everything I need to fully finish.
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Sedrife

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2015, 05:38:35 PM »
Touhou really started with the idea from ZUN thinking that game shouldn't be something that requires a lot of money to make.  The corporate world of mainstream has always been about "how to make this so we can milk as much money as possible?" and, the disconnect between hardcore gaming and business has been established.  Japanese culture with Touhou derivative works has developed itself to be a cult, where majority believes in the subculture that disconnects itself from monetary gains.

Now, for crowdfunding.
For Westerners, the spirit of the crowdfunding is very similar to the basis of "disconnect from corporate world" that keeps Japanese Touhou community together, but also add "if you have a good idea, there's no shame in making money out of it", in the land of opportunity.  For Easterners, this is an absurdity, mainly because, a good idea should not generate money, but it should generate even more good ideas.  The phrase, "money is the root of all evil" is applied much more seriously and mercilessly in the Eastern community, and that's a hard barrier to break.

Reality Check.
Touhou Smash is a big project.  Crowdfunding was needed to cut-down 5 years of working in to 1 year.  Sure, this is a noble cause enough to be accepted in the Western community.  Personally, I think it was a mistake in trying to promote this game so early to Japanese Touhou community.  If this game was to adapt and survive in development in favor of both Japanese and Western community, Touhou Smash should have downsized even further for its pilot project - Let's say, starting with 4 characters and 3 stages.  The game will then be sold at Reitaisai / Comiket / Western convention or whatever, and if the reception is good, the game will be "patched" for next con with additional characters and additional stages.  This is the format that the conventional Japanese 2nd derivatives.

What also alarms me is that this simple crowdfunding meant to get enough donations to get the required software, is turning into (or at least appears to be evolving into) something more dangerous.  I see that they added new perks recently, "$3000 USD for Fifth Shrine Maiden" and "$600, $800, $1000 for Mini Story".  Sure, a good game requires money, and I personally would like to see this game with full voice support with a lot more Touhou characters, but at this point, it doesn't seem to bring more innovations.  What stops them now from making the new perks for 6th Shrine Maiden?  7th Shrine Maiden? 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 05:42:42 PM by Sedrife »

Sedrife

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2015, 05:49:04 PM »
In my opinion, that is a moral discussion between west and east, though that is only half the story/problem. What we're dealing with this incident is copyright and possible breaching ZUN's guidelines for fanwork. We still need to wait what he has to say and thus speculations are kind of void at this point. It can be elitism or pride but Japanese people in general protect ZUN's wishes. He could've simply said: "screw you all, no derived work allowed." and Touhou project would be forgotten very quickly or something. But he didn't and which is probably why people can react upset when people "break the rules".

About monetary help: How do you think people start up a company? For free? If they receive external monetary help, it is always in form of investment and thus there is obvious a shareholding relationship. Like: "I'll grand you 10k investment money to startup your company but I will demand 10k back eventually + 2% of your net profit for the upcoming year" or something (I am bad at this).

About ZUN's guidelines.
There's no specific mention about the crowdfunding in his guideline.  What we know from the lessons of GS System is the vague mention that "crowdfunding could be under the category of investment = starting a business, so it needs a license".  This isn't from ZUN's mouth or blog, so there was really nothing that could stop this from happening again. 

For us, crowdfunding is a legit way for individuals who have really good ideas and want to make a good indie, but want to avoid all the corporate bullshit (obviously, Japanese Touhou fans + ZUN doesn't think the same way).  ZUN really needs to revise his guideline up-to-date in the forms of setting rules for what's happening on 2015.  Namely from what I think:

1. Policy in regards to Crowdfunding to start Touhou derivative works
1b. Policy in regards to "investment", where fans will pre-purchase the derivative works for the artist to obtain the necessary equipments so that when the work is finished, the distribution will be free for the fans who have pre-purchased the work.
2. Policy in regards to monetizing videos containing Touhou derivative works
3. Policy in regards to opening an Online Touhou derivative convention