東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[Ikari]

The best characters tend to be ones that don't have to stick to one playstyle. Adaptability is a huge factor that makes characters as well as players, do well.

Exactly, a character with a style very defined can only end up being powerful against other character with opposable play styles and completely defenseless against everything else. It's so much more fun to play with adaptable character too; I love using Reimu and Sakuya on UNL; I may not be that good at using them, but they're very fun to play; losing using them doesn't feel like your opponent just used a character that was good against those, it feels like a clean match and I'm happy anyway.

[shadowbringer]

disagree with you two, unless you're talking about "best" as in "funniest" (which is more subjective) instead of "more effective".

Speaking of Yuyuko, I like her projectiles in IaMP, the range of her melee moves (which, combined with said butterflies, are fun to use) and her yuyuflip (which requires good reading to at least not whiff it -- you can't cancel it if you do) and overall prefer neutral game over momentum game (given that I'm bad with memorizing things such as blockstrings, setups and etc but have instead -- or so I think -- learned to compensate with better-than-average defense reaction and pattern reading). I wish I had a better memory for said blockstrings and setups, so I could do these myself too.

[Ikari]

disagree with you two, unless you're talking about "best" as in "funniest" (which is more subjective) instead of "more effective".

A character with a style can be effective, like Reisen's illusory moves or Suwako's unpredictable behavior. A character with a ridiculously emphasized playstyle isn't too great. Utsuho in UNL is great to do damage with few hits... and that's it. She loses on ever other aspects of fighting.

[iK]

A cast of extremes is also a cast of polarised matchups which makes it very hard for either player to really feel the fight is fair. Like if I use Mu against Tager and he just can't do a thing to get in, it just feels like a free bye to me. The other way around it's a painful experience trying to just take a step forward. Matches are a lot more enjoyable when both characters have a moderate chance. Occasional hard counters are fine, but making a cast of drastic extremes causes these to compose more matchups than they should.

[Aya Reiko]

All I can say is thank god it's not reusing the IaMP engine.  It also looks like it'll be using separate air-game and ground-game mechanics.
On second thought, it may not have a ground game at all...

Hmmm...

The backgrounds are definitely 3D.

Could Mamizou be the game's equivalent of Shang Tsung...?  And would Mamizou morphs be disablable in the options menu?

[Gpop]

Could Mamizou be the game's equivalent of Shang Tsung...?  And would Mamizou morphs be disablable in the options menu?

Couldn't that also to be said about Nue though? :V

[DX7.EP]

For some reason I'd see Mamizou's transform ability to be more similar to Akari's (Last Blade series, NGBC). Only able to transform to her current opponent, and the change is lost on getting hit. Probably some other things too but I don't remember too well.

Shang Tsung-style Nue, though, would be hilarious. :V

[KrackoCloud]

I think it would be cool just to see Mamizou whip out hordes of animal outlines. Maybe some we haven't seen yet either, like bear melee or fish projectiles.

[Ikari]

I think it would be cool just to see Mamizou whip out hordes of animal outlines. Maybe some we haven't seen yet either, like bear melee or fish projectiles.

I demand fish and bees, or I'll be unhappy.

Ok not really, I'd be overjoyed anyway. I think Touhou is the only game series I can't think of a character and say ''Gah, I wish she won't be in the game, I hate her''.

[Branneg Xy]

Here's some food for thought.I just noticed a few details between  the special bar,bottom screen, and the approval bar,upper screen.Reimu's and Marisa's special bars are different in capacity lenght  ,since the latter one is shorter.There are 3 levels for the special bar,which are grey(empty?),red and blue not just 2.In the 3rd picture Reimu sustains "high"(768) damage but receives +86% approval,look at the blue portion bar,and Marisa loses 45% of it,same with the red portion;the two of them are in an inverse proportion to each other.Last one is  another detail about the approval bar which ,even with huge increase/decrease on the gauge,still keeps a speck of safety for undecided gray.Interesting.....  :wat:

[shadowbringer]

A character with a style can be effective, like Reisen's illusory moves or Suwako's unpredictable behavior. A character with a ridiculously emphasized playstyle isn't too great. Utsuho in UNL is great to do damage with few hits... and that's it. She loses on ever other aspects of fighting.

it seems to me that you prefer characters that give you enough offensive and/or defensive options (some could call them "balanced" types), however it wouldn't be accurate to call more specialized types "not good". They may have more matchup imbalances (in their favor or against them) and may be more difficult to use (for some/many people), but they may just fit well with other people's playing styles. Some people even have varied enough playstyles and can use said balanced or specialized character types when they feel like playing with their gameplay style. Finally, regarding effectiveness of characters, allowing diverse playstyles (like I've said in the previous post) or giving a character a wide variety of resources/tools doesn't ensure that the character is effective enough to be "the best". One character with less options, but equally or more useful ones, has greater chances.

Regarding Okuu in Soku (remember I don't play this game), or other specialized characters (can think of Patchy in IaMP, for example), as a general rule: use their strenghts, work around their deficiencies. (like you would with "balanced" character-types: choose a character whose resources/tools you can use better)

@Mamizou: she could (alternativel) be like Twelve and X-Copy their opponents too :p

[Ikari]

Regarding Okuu in Soku (remember I don't play this game), or other specialized characters (can think of Patchy in IaMP, for example), as a general rule: use their strenghts, work around their deficiencies. (like you would with "balanced" character-types: choose a character whose resources/tools you can use better)

Patchouli is an excellent example of a character who isn't balanced, but is extremely powerful when used right; She's one of my favorites. With Patchouli, you can actually work around the weaknesses she has. She's a proof that a character can have a specialized way of fighting without being weak.

Utsuho is the perfect example of a character who isn't balanced, and is ridiculously flawed on many levels to make up for her unique advantage; Strength. It's hard to explain if you don't play the game, but let's just say she's not just ''specialized'' anymore, she's ridiculously pushed toward the ''HIT HIM, HIT HIM FOR BIG DAMAGE :I'' style so that it's harder to play as her. I've seen people use her well, but it's still quite difficult. Unlike Alice, it's not hard because you have to *know* how to use her, she's hard to use because she's soooooo punishable and slow. She hits like a damn truck, but any good player that is somewhat skilled with dodging will laugh at her.

[Aya Reiko]

I wonder who'd be in it...
I'm guessing 20 spots, but minus at least two for the boss and her Dragon.

The Locks: Reimu, Marisa, Sanae
The Maybes: Kasen, Seiga, Komachi (if either Kasen or Seiga are there, so too will be Komachi), Youmu, Alice, Sakuya, Aya, Futo, Cirno, Kogasa
The Doubtfuls:  Byakuren (she's a pacifist by nature)

[iK]

Futo and Kogasa, but no Miko? Seems suspect to me.

I can't think of a number but, for who would particularly stand out to me as choices to make interesting fighters or obvious choices-

Returning cast- Reimu, Marisa, Cirno, Sakuya, Alice, Youmu, Yukari (w/ Shikigami summons?), Suika, Reisen, Aya, Komachi, Sanae, Utsuho
New characters- Nitori, Yuugi, Koishi, Ichirin and Unzan, Byakuren, Seiga and Yoshika,  Miko w/Futo and Tojiko summons, Mamizou,  Kasen, RANDOM YAMAME

I really can't help but think what a neat character Ichirin could be, same with Nitori and her go-go gadget copter/whatever. I'm happy with whatever cast we get though.

[Amraphenson]

Yuyuko has great setups and normals, as mentioned (mostly because they last so long and are disjointed, which make them mostly safe). Her guardcrush game is also really good, and if you're fast enough default 623 can be used on reaction to punish chicken blocking and border escapes made on the ground, which is really powerful, because 623 fan spin can be canceled from pretty much anything. Corner carry is also ridiculous and she generally can always blue border with any combo. Her bread and butter blockstring also works anywhere on the screen (5A/2A 3A/6A 6C 421C hj9 j2A, repeat). The fact that her C-series bullets don't interact with other bullets make some characters really sweat, as they're generally not characters that have to deal with losing bullet trades (utsuho and yukari for basic examples). All of her matchups are positive except vs Sakuya and Iku (who don't have ANY bad matchups), and she has a hilarious 70/30 win odds versus Cirno. (Mostly because Cirno can't break even Yuyuko's B butterflies.)

It's also worth mentioning that EVERYONE is a keep-away/zoner to some extent in Hisoutensoku because of how it's designed, save for maybe Youmu and Meiling. (even then Meiling 6c and certain Myon specials are really good at spacing)

[Clarste]

I wonder who'd be in it...
I'm guessing 20 spots, but minus at least two for the boss and her Dragon.

The Locks: Reimu, Marisa, Sanae
The Maybes: Kasen, Seiga, Komachi (if either Kasen or Seiga are there, so too will be Komachi), Youmu, Alice, Sakuya, Aya, Futo, Cirno, Kogasa
The Doubtfuls:  Byakuren (she's a pacifist by nature)

This was mentioned earlier, but we should probably expect a much smaller cast since they're redoing the sprites. IaMP was released with 10 characters, so that is likely to be the range we should be expecting.

Since the theme is a continuation of the religious conflict from SoPM,  I'd say it's basically mandatory for Kanako, Miko, and Byakuren to show up. If not, definitely one of their agents (which I guess makes Kanako the least likely because of Sanae).  Also, I don't think Byakuren is likely refuse because of her pacifism. Based on the popularity contest game mechanic, it's likely that the story will turn it into a spectacle or a festival of sorts. Byakuren is against killing, but she has nothing against danmaku battles in general.

Anyway, given that Reimu, Marisa and Sanae are also mandatory, that takes up 5-6 slots right there. Subtract one for the final boss, and that leaves 3-4 free slots for recurring characters. Then I suppose we have to ask the big question: what exactly does ZUN intend to do with this game? If he just wants to make a sequel to the previous fighting games, he'd probably want to include old favorites like Sakuya and Youmu. On the other hand, if he plans on using this to put focus on the newer characters and the newer stories, which honestly seems more likely to me, he'd be more likely to add characters from UFO and TD. If that's the plan, Seiga seems pretty likely to me because despite being technically on the Taoist side of things, she also has motivations that are completely separate from Miko (Futo and Tojiko are both toadies, and even get summoned by Miko's spellcard in TD). It's harder to come up with another representative from UFO, but Shou and Murasa seemed sort of like co-subleaders in UFO. Ichirin might make a fun character to play though. Or just Kogasa, because.

The last slot will be someone random from something else, like Kasen or Aya.

[Amraphenson]

well, randomly, I hope they have normal grabs this time around.

[shadowbringer]

Patchouli is an excellent example of a character who isn't balanced, but is extremely powerful when used right; She's one of my favorites. With Patchouli, you can actually work around the weaknesses she has. She's a proof that a character can have a specialized way of fighting without being weak.

Utsuho is the perfect example of a character who isn't balanced, and is ridiculously flawed on many levels to make up for her unique advantage; Strength. It's hard to explain if you don't play the game, but let's just say she's not just ''specialized'' anymore, she's ridiculously pushed toward the ''HIT HIM, HIT HIM FOR BIG DAMAGE :I'' style so that it's harder to play as her. I've seen people use her well, but it's still quite difficult. Unlike Alice, it's not hard because you have to *know* how to use her, she's hard to use because she's soooooo punishable and slow. She hits like a damn truck, but any good player that is somewhat skilled with dodging will laugh at her.

Uhhh, the same could've been said about Okuu: work around the weaknesses. Patchy has poor melee options in IaMP, but good neutral game, good spirit meter, good projectiles, Okuu has even more terrible startup on her normals than average, but good range (which you seem to have overlooked, in favor of the more obvious damage) and somewhat useful bullets (c bullets for countering if you have enough time, other people who're more familiar with her also like her atom-like slow bullet and her Subterranean Sun sc). Okuu (or heavy-hitters in general) might just not fit with your playstyle, but that's not something to be ashamed of. I for example suck at rushdown, okizeme and keepaway-centered characters/mechanics (though that doesn't keep me from trying to learn them and enjoying their movesets).

[Amraphenson]

http://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Diagram
Most of my complaints on balance are based on this tier list and various tournament footage in nico and youtube. Tasofro is not really very good at balancing games, and it really makes me worried when one of their games has an 80/20 matchup in it, and this isn't even between the statistically best and worst characters; no, a B-tier character versus an F-tier one is where this amazing matchup happens. Seriously? Also take note of Sakuya's average data on the right of the chart: her stat is (+21.0) is far and above the closest one, Yuyuko's. (+14.5) The same goes for Suwako and Okuu on the otherside, who feature -23.0 and -13.5, respectively. I'm really worried about this game balance wise, track record considered.  :ohdear:

(The data's old, but Soku has been dead for a while now tourney wise.)

[Starxsword]

I don't see why an 8/2 matchup would mean unbalanced. Most matchups are around 4/6 to 6/4 which is pretty good. The 8/2 match up is the worse kind, this matchup probably means the style of the character is very advantageous vs the style of the opponent.
This is generally true in most versus games where there are characters that do have such a big edge over another character. Though, that match up listed is Suwako, and she is kinda hard to use.

[Tiamat]

This is one of those cases where you really need to get some tier lists from some other fighting games in order to get a good context, I think. 8/2 sounds kinda bad up front, but I'm pretty sure lots of fighting games have at least one match up that bad. I could be wrong.

[Amraphenson]

Fighting games in general should be limited to three or four tiers. bad>decent>good>best. Sf4 is like that, bb is like that, melty is like that, and lots of others are. The most drastic matchup you'd see in any of those would be a 70/30 matchup like Kanji vs Liz in P4u or Nu vs Tager. In the five years I have been seriously playing fightingames, I have never seen such a polarising matchup And that's just looking at this tier list; other matchups that we almost as bad are Youmu Alice and Iku Okuu. Its not that bad matchups are uncommon, its that soku has way too taking many.

[Starxsword]

Now, in the fighting games you play, how many of those characters have different skill sets? Bad matchups happen when you have lots of different skill sets, you can't just look the number of characters. For example, let's use Street Fighter 4. Ryu, Ken, Gouken, and Akuma have a similar playing styles. Then you compare that will the amount of characters are in the game. It is the variance of the characters that can cause a bad matchup. How many of those characters have variance? You can use the game you provided and look at all the characters.

Now, I am unsure what you mean by limited to 4 tiers. Tiers are just something you can arbitrarily set, then make a comparison. I also have a comment about Suwako, she is hard to use, so I am unsure how accurate that diagram is.

Until you actually play this game extensively and is able to make your own judgement. I don't see how you can make any comments of a tier list that is subjective and could change.

[Amraphenson]

If you had kept that to Ryu and Ken, I maybe would have given you that. But as soon as you added Gouken and Akuma, you just lost credibility. Akuma has teleports, air fire balls, and demon flip. Gouken has antiair fireballs, no easy reversal without meter, AMONGST OTHER THINGS. SF4, regardless of any problems I have with it, has a very varied and interesting cast if you have any familiarity with actual fighting game mechanics. Just look at El Fuerte, Dudley,  and Viper for a quick example of differences.

Fighting games should have three to four tiers because any more implies that the worst person in the cast has absolutely no chance versus the top; rather than the S to F tier Soku has, it's more of a S to B tier. There's no one bad, it's just that a few are better.

Suwako is legitimately bad. Her ground dashes are predictable and easy to punish, her control scheme is finnicky for little reward beyond damage output, and an assortment of other problems make her just plain bad. You could have made the 'hard to use' argument a few months ago, but Alice and Suwako have been out of the 'can't be tiered, not enough known about' list for a long time now.

You don't need to play a game extensively to be able to comment on it extensively, or else commentators would be the best players of the games. I can very easily say Sakuya has no weaknesses except maybe her damage, Alice is absolutely useless if you kill her dolls and get in, and Okuu has the slowest, laggiest, and easiest to punish normals I've ever seen. I'm not very good at playing fighting games admittedly, but like I've mentioned before I commentate just fine. And my comments on Soku are that it's really stupid unbalanced, and Tasofro has a bad track record with game balance in general.

[Tiamat]

On a random note, that "God tier" joke (assuming it was a joke) about Suwako in that diagram is hilarious on multiple levels.

[Amraphenson]

On a random note, that "God tier" joke (assuming it was a joke) about Suwako in that diagram is hilarious on multiple levels.

That jokes gets cracked all the time (thor and ammy from MvC3 come to mind). It's just funnier (but sadder) in this case.

[Starxsword]

But as soon as you added Gouken and Akuma, you just lost credibility. Akuma has teleports, air fire balls, and demon flip. Gouken has antiair fireballs, no easy reversal without meter

I don't remember ever saying they play the same. I said similar.
Now, look at the examples you gave me. That is 4 examples of different playing styles. What I am looking for is more variance, because Touhou has quite a bit of variance and therefore more chances to have mismatch. What I am saying is the more variance you see, the greater the odds are you will see more of a difference in the tier list.

I don't remember Dudley in Street Fighter 4. I also don't quite remember using Viper even though I recognize her name. Maybe there is a naming difference, because I know I have used every single character in that game. I believe you need to use every character to unlock Gouken. Zangeif was also a lot stronger or something, because he much better to use than compared to back in the Steet Fighter 2 days, where he wasn't all that amazing.

Fighting games should have three to four tiers because any more implies that the worst person in the cast has absolutely no chance versus the top; rather than the S to F tier Soku has, it's more of a S to B tier. There's no one bad, it's just that a few are better.

It does not imply anything. An S tier does not mean it will beat a F tier character, not in Soku, so I am quite confused where you got this conclusion. A tier list is a subjective list between players.

You don't need to play a game extensively to be able to comment on it extensively, or else commentators would be the best players of the games. I can very easily say Sakuya has no weaknesses except maybe her damage, Alice is absolutely useless if you kill her dolls and get in, and Okuu has the slowest, laggiest, and easiest to punish normals I've ever seen. I'm not very good at playing fighting games admittedly, but like I've mentioned before I commentate just fine. And my comments on Soku are that it's really stupid unbalanced, and Tasofro has a bad track record with game balance in general.

And I am saying you are wrong. Before making comments like it is unbalanced, I hoped you would play the game more. Sakuya is S tier yes, but she's not so much stronger than the supposedly worst character, Suwako, that Sakuya will have an overwhelming advantage. The real advantage between characters is really their playing style.

Suwako is legitimately bad. Her ground dashes are predictable and easy to punish, her control scheme is finnicky for little reward beyond damage output, and an assortment of other problems make her just plain bad. You could have made the 'hard to use' argument a few months ago, but Alice and Suwako have been out of the 'can't be tiered, not enough known about' list for a long time now.

It is not the matter of them being out. It is the matter of who are using them. If it is as you said, they are only mid tier even if you learn how to use them. There would be little reward to try to learn them. Why then, would players try to learn them? This is why I talked about hard to use, because Suwako is hard to use and does not offer that great of a reward even if you learn how to use it. And again, may I repeat what I said, tier list are subjective. You are basing something subjective to make another subjective argument.

Did you notice that the tier listed is as of July 10? It would imply that the tier list is fluid. If characters were really that poorly balanced, there would hardly be fluidity.

[nintendonut888]

Just watch, the boss of the game will have the ability to manipulate power levels and tier lists. THEN where will you all be?

[AnonymousPondScum]

I JUST WANT TO HIT BUTTONS AND WATCH SHINY THINGS HAPPEN :V

I DON'T WANT NO STINKIN' TIERS :getdown:

[Amraphenson]

Smalled for convenience. Don't read if you don't care about any of the rambling I've been filling this thread with (and again sorry about that), but Starxsword obviously has beef with my opinion.

Firstly star, SF4 has plenty of variance. There are plenty of variance between characters in SF4, and if I need to spell it out for you then fine. Gouken, Akuma, and Ryu/Ken do not play remotely similar either. If you haven't heard of Viper or Dudley, then you probably haven't played it since SF4, which was several major updates ago. If you're not even familiar with how SSF4:AE is right now, then don't dispute me on it when the game you're talking about is three years old.

Secondly, no, tier lists are not entirely subjective between people to people. You can argue their existence, but there are very mechanical ways of spelling out how bad someone is; bad recovery, bad startup, bad active frames, bad range, bad anything. The subjectiveness of tiers at high levels of play are limited to swapping around exact placements, not general placements. Suwako has bad flight, bad normals, a ghetto 'stance' system that's easy to punish, and a plethora of other problems. Not to mention that the tier list I mentioned is an agreed one between hundreds, if not at least one or two thousand high level Soku players.

Yes I have played Soku a lot, yes I say that Sakuya would rape the living shit out of Suwako, yes I've watched a lot of Soku (and like I said you don't have to play a lot of a game to understand it, just watching and learning how to commentate is enough) and you just contradicted yourself by calling me wrong. I thought they were subjective between person to person? You're free to disagree. Some of the matchups in Soku are :absolutely stupid:, assuming skill level is around the same, and even when the person playing the worse character is probably massively better in general. Like I said, people in the top ten of their respective characters within Japanese rankings have lost to unranked Yuyukos, Remilias, and Sakuyas, just because those characters are just so overwhelmingly better. And you want to know why they're better? Because Soku is a game that desperately wants all of its characters to remain in neutral for the entire game; just look at the mechanics. Wrongblocks don't result in immediate guardbreak, border escapes, system cards with invulnerability, supers/ex skills are just one button press (and thus reversals are only one buttons press), grazing, etc. Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, that's how it is; and the three best characters in Soku are the ones who have nigh-infinite, nearly unescapable blockstrings that :will: result in guardbreaks, because they spit in the face of the game's general design.  Of course zoning and neutral don't mean a goddamn thing in Soku because of the same mechanics that it's trying to use to stay in neutral and zoning, but hey. They tried.

Soku is badly balanced, SWR was badly balanced, and Tasofro has a bad history with game balance in general. My concern is legitimate about the competitive balance of the next game; if you want to disagree with me then fine, but it doesn't change the fact I'm worried about it, nor does it change the fact you can't really argue my concern unless you're a competitive player yourself for Soku. I'm really not sure why you're trying to alleviate my concerns.

If you're still hungup on my preferred number of tiers, then look at it from a statistics point of view: I don't want a bunch of fucking outliers messing up my stat distribution, thanks.

I'll say it again. My concerns are probably not going to be shared by a whole lot of other people; most of us are not competitive fighting game players or commentators. I honestly don't give a flying fuck if you care or not, or agree with my concerns, but hey. If you've spent the effort to multi quote my post then you obviously care about what I think.

If you want a second opinion, just watch these. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2D39AC7C6E8AD8F7 And read the video descriptions. or go to #hisouten, which is all of the american hisoutensoku community, and try and tell them they're playing a balanced game. I'll wait. If it makes you feel better Alice used to be considered the worst character in the game.