Magical Madness Mafia 2, The Horrible Finish (Mod and Scum lose)

[Serela]

Conq:Well he kind of ~*~already explained~*~ his role? The only thing he did not claim is exactly how his list expands. Seriously.

Conq, Chaotic is on my town read list. Also, that's a dumb way to work. Clearing people because the person they're voting MIGHT BE SCUM? Hero barely did a thing yesterday. At all. That's what's bad. I'm not attacking him just because he voted an easy case.

And conq, Dan's lynch WAS perfectly non-painful for town after he claimed. His role makes it so that scum don't get any night actions including an NK. It's almost like extending d2. And he himself was useless to the point of being nothing more then a minor distraction. You'd have to explain to me why it would be BAD for town in order for me to possibly see a reason.

Who would be scum with Hero and for what reasons?

This is also kind of weird. I mean, yeah, you're right about the burden of proof thing, but hunting for buddies on someone who hasn't flipped scum is still kind of silly.

[Serela]

You said you're really tired, so maybe it's partially just that, Conq! :3 After a good nights sleep, things are usually better.

[Raitaki]

Let's see.
Still think Zakeri is scummy. Hero is strangely absent from my memory, so might be lurkscum. I also have a feeling scum is hiding themselves quite well this game, or something. Might just be Serela, Chaotick, Dr Rawr and Raikaria being generally very hard for me to read and in the same game though.

-cut-
Serela I said I'm interested in how his target list expands. And no I'm not going to accept a "it's random" defense from you.

[Conqueror]

Conq:Well he kind of ~*~already explained~*~ his role? The only thing he did not claim is exactly how his list expands. Seriously.

>_____________________>
Serela, can you stop answering for Zakeri, please? At the very least I want to know who his targets were for N1 and what he chose to do N1. Exactly how his list expands is a plus.

As for the Hero vote, sure, I guess. The thing is that Chaotick barely did a thing yesterday either (Hero with his minimal posting gave about as many reads as Chaotick did, and without the extra AtE), and right now I'm pretty sold on a Zak/Chaotick pairing.

And conq, Dan's lynch WAS perfectly non-painful for town after he claimed. His role makes it so that scum don't get any night actions including an NK. It's almost like extending d2. And he himself was useless to the point of being nothing more then a minor distraction. You'd have to explain to me why it would be BAD for town in order for me to possibly see a reason.

Anyway, if you people had read Dormio's flip, you'd realize that certain town power roles have certain functions that can only act on certain nights. So you can see how Dan's stunt could have fucked over multiple people. But whatever.

This is also kind of weird. I mean, yeah, you're right about the burden of proof thing, but hunting for buddies on someone who hasn't flipped scum is still kind of silly.

This question is mostly because IHNN is all over the place and I have no idea where his reads are.

Also, tired not in terms of sleep but in terms of this game. Fuck D2.

[Serela]

That answer makes even less sense but I'll stop answering because I don't think you want me to.

Also, IHNN thing clarified, okay. Now I see you didn't mean buddies as much as other scum reads.

...a Zak/Chaotick pairing? What have they done to make you think they're buddies together? If you want to wait until after they answer your questions that's fine and whatnot

[Serela]

...a Zak/Chaotick pairing? What have they done to make you think they're buddies together?

And to clarify, this is not "Why do you think they're scum" and more "Why do you think they're scum together" with emphasis on the last word

[Serela]

Also, I think you misinterpreted Dormio's role. Each day, he switched between being Battler and Beatrice. There isn't some seperate person who is Battler or whatnot, nor was his role only able to function on certain nights. You're kind of overreacting to Dan's role shenanigans :c

[I have no name]

Oh noes Shadoweh is threatening to kill me! What ever shall I do!? Besides even if you do take me down with you, it wouldn't matter much because I doubt my capability to use my role effectively~

I want a claim.

His D1 starts out with a few jokeposts, prods for content, the gem above, followed by getting suspicious" and answering the few questions sent his way in one line.  His last post of D1 is merely saying Chaotick isn't going to be around (speaking of which, Chaotick, reads, now/whenever you show up).

D2. Complains about people using this forum for not!mafia happenings (hi), agrees with role shenanigans pointing to Raitaki behind the C.C. vote.  Disagrees with finding Bard scum with nothing to back it up, comments that ActionDan and himself might as well not exist.  He also votes Chaotick for only following up on people D1 while sort of acknowledging that he [Hero] has less content than Chaotick.
2nd post.  Withdraws his earlier rawr scumread (from D1, his vote was due to a prod for content despite rawr having a lot of content) {hey rawr, IIRC you haven't done much lately [i.e. LD2], where are you}.  Uses Shadoweh's arguments/points for backing up his Chaotick vote when confronted by him, then asks Raikaria to stop talking about C.C.
My main problem thus far is that he holds most of the reasons he's voting other people (including springboarding off of someone else to back up his Chaotick vote).  He went 27 hours between his 2nd and 3rd D2 posts.
Summary:
rants at Dan, admits to having no opinions, doesn't want to vote Zakeri, asking Serela for *reasons*, repeats what Conq said about Chaotick's post by post information dump, then says posting is too much effort and cuts the post "because my head is going to wifom theories".

So, his D2 is utterly lacking and exhibits many, if not all, of the traits that other people are being voted for.


This is sort of a ramble!post but I think it explains why I want Hero dead.

Who would be scum with Hero and for what reasons?

Hero has barely interacted with anyone at all, only ever really suspecting rawr and Chaotick.  I don't know what to make of either of those connections.

oh, other scumreads.  The list of people I think might be scum is: Raitaki, Chaotick, Zakeri and rawr, in order of most suspected to least suspected.  i guess if it comes down to it Shadoweh is after that due to being less active than usual?  Haven't seen anything strike me as off in her posts though.  (Shadoweh we all love you but please post stuff kthxbai)

[Conqueror]

And to clarify, this is not "Why do you think they're scum" and more "Why do you think they're scum together" with emphasis on the last word

...Because I think they're both scum individually and they work well as scum together (especially given the hard defence both ways and how Zakeri pushed forward with a Dan lynch yesterday when it looked like Zak and Chaotic were the two other main wagons)? That plus I think a lot of other people look townie.

Also, I think you misinterpreted Dormio's role. Each day, he switched between being Battler and Beatrice. There isn't some seperate person who is Battler or whatnot, nor was his role only able to function on certain nights. You're kind of overreacting to Dan's role shenanigans :c

No, I'm saying that my role is similar to Dormio's in that I started out with multiple pms, and in the pre-game I chose the order in which I would cycle through the pms, and Dan completely fucked up my rotation by neutering the two powers that were most useful (I was BP night one, btw). Might as well say it because I've basically softclaimed. I don't care.

IHNN, thanks.

[Serela]

...oh.

[Conqueror]

Anyway,
Town: Shadoweh, Serela, IHNN, Raikaria (Why would he clear Shadoweh as scum? Doesn't make sense)

Zakeri and Chaotick are either scum together or not at all. If they're not scum, remaining scum lie in (Bard/Raitaki/Hero/rawr[the towniest of this latter bunch?])

If we want to let Zakeri live one more day for his vig claim, then fine (although I still want an explanation from him). I still prefer a Chaotick lynch over Hero, although just barely I guess.

[Raitaki]

First off, @Zakeri: Okay, so you've been posting more. But still, your number of reasons to think people are scum has returned to like 0 again, and has stayed that way for a while (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've since dropped your reasons to vote me). So, now although you have produced more reads and opinions now, still you have no justified scum reads, and quite a portion of the bulk of your posts were defending yourself, trying to explain your brief scum reads on people before admitting they're shitty and dropping them (this somewhat feels like in Adorable's when I tried voting BT while having no reads...:\), and pumping AtE-loaded bullets at people attacking Chaotick (not that I disagree that his behaviours do not make him scummy). Sorry, bro, my scumread on you is a bit weaker, but I still think you're scum.

Sorry for tunneling Zakeri, guys, but I apparently suck balls at scumreads, so.
##Vote Zakeri

also where did bard go :[

@Hero: Hmmm yeah I think IHNN put it well enough. I'd still prefer a Zakeri lynch though.

@Serela: As usual in most games where he isn't Serelaponyponypony he's still treading the paperthin borderline between text with a little content and Shadoweh-posts-except-without-content. Blargh overheat. Serela you have evaded my read once more.
Speaking of which, Shadoweh why are you barely useful at all this time around D: what happened since that time you nailed two scum in one night posting session

Urrrrgh stupid forum keeps giving errors while I try to find posts of exact players D: Reading through the thread post-by-post does not do good for the coherence of my thoughts. I guess I'll continue this rereading thing tomorrow.

Anyways, at the moment:
Town reads: IHNN, Conqueror, Shadoweh, Raikaria (?)
Scum reads: Zakeri, Hero
Null reads on everyone else.

Also, sorry for being an egocentric and pretentious prick (I know, I'm like that irl too), but let me just point out, the number of reasons people are voting me for that they still hold: approx. 0.
That might be a good thing though, must mean I'm really living up to my title of being unreadable, in a way >;3

-cut-
Aw no Conqueror please don't scrap that town read you had on me </3 </3

[SirChaotick]

##Unvote

Reading time. Back in a moment.

[SirChaotick]

Honest question: are all mafia games here like this? This is just such a damn mess. Not helping is the fact that I have to go in ten minutes. To school. AGAIN. Gah.

Reading is getting extremely difficult. Right now, it seems like everyone is town. Either that or I have to inverse all of my reads and start attacking Zakeri, Serela and Conqueror as prime suspects.

...which is not an option since they're townreads(especially Serela still), but... then...

I am saddened by my own incompetence. And I have to go. Did that really take me ten minutes...?

SCREW THIS. Next time(which is within nine hours at the very, very earliest), you're all getting an excruciatingly lengthy post-by-post analysis of RaitakivsZaikeri continuation, whether you want it or not. If it's the only way I can get anything done, then so be it.
And I am fully aware this is another "post that promises content but doesn't actually have any because of V/LA or something", but that's too fudging bad since it's all I have had time for. Goodbye.

[I have no name]

Honest question: are all mafia games here like this?

Nope.

[Serela]

Conq. The reason Chaotick is a town read and Hero isn't is partially meta-related by Chaotick's newness (oh jeez I was so similar as what he's doing in Dwarf Fortress down to the huge post by post analysis except chaotick's was stopped) and in general just... Chaotick is being super out there and talking and etc while Hero is kind of lurky and not saying much and idk it's more like, "safe" or something

it's not easy to explain what I'm thinking here, and the words I'm using might be kind of misleading (Ahahah this is exactly what I said to bard :T)

In the end it's kind of how you look at their personality in their playing so far, I guess?

Hero feels like the scum version of doing this. Chaotick feels like the town version. And I can relate both of them to what I've done in the same situations as those alignments.

[Conqueror]

No, I can see where you're coming from. The problem is that Hero is lurky as fuck as town too. >_>
I'll look over the Bard/Raitaki/Hero/rawr pool tomorrow.

[Serela]

I don't remember because the only game I recall him playing anytime recently is anonymafia :c

[Serela]

Swordgirls anonymafia*

[Raikaria]

Rai, I know it's hard to read but you probably didn't get anything last night.

##Vote: Raikaria WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU IGNORING ME. WHY DO YOU HAVE NO READS.

I HAVE READS. THEY JUST ARE NOT WHERE YOU ARE LOOKING!

Speaking of reads, they're basically the same as my last post, except Zakeri is also 'Null but slightly less null than Raitaki'.

However, in the event that some have changed [Too lazy to search for post pre-lecture time isn't much]; I'll re-post them:

Townies:
Me, Shadoweh, Conq, Bard, IHNN, Chaotik

Can't make my mind up:
Serela, Rawr, Hero [Lack of content]

One of these two is probably scum
Zakeri, Raitaki

[Shadoweh]

Conq: It does make sense but not in that way. What do you think of Raitaki? I supose you especially think possible Zak-scum's attention on him makes him townier. If it helps, I believe in Zak's vig claim because it coordinates with the bulletproof claim someone else made.  Serela is obvtown anyways. I think I'd rather lynch Hero then Chaotick at this point but my lynching scale tips based on annoyance.

I hope I was clear in that I was not voting Dan because it was 'okay' but because he lied in the worst possible way. >_> The role he claimed would have benefited from being targetted. I hope you're having fun IN HELL DAN.

Raikaikai you are not making sense to me and if you can't justify those reads given the claims going around I am going to kamikaze bomb your face into the thread.

Mr. Chaotick. Perhaps it would help if you figured out your thought patterns. Just relax and let the reads go. Read people one at a time, or all at once, and figure out -why- you believe a certain person's posts make them town. Is it because they sound good? Did they make a good point? Were they attacking someone you thought was suspicious? And does it still make sense given the flips we've gotten? (which have been few troll mod etc)

[Shadoweh]

Also fyi Zak's vig sounds like my Serial Killer vig from the last game. <_<

[Hero999]

Honest question: are all mafia games here like this? This is just such a damn mess. Not helping is the fact that I have to go in ten minutes. To school. AGAIN. Gah.

Reading is getting extremely difficult. Right now, it seems like everyone is town. Either that or I have to inverse all of my reads and start attacking Zakeri, Serela and Conqueror as prime suspects.

1)No, last game everything was much clearer in my eyes, everything here is foggy as fuck.

I don't get it, the bolded part sounds fishy as fuck because why specifically these 3?
If what I'm reading is correct, from that question you are calling Zakeri, Conq, and Serela the towniest. So that means you should have people who are alot less townier in your eyes. Why do you have to specifically stick on the Raitaki V Zakeri part when so much new stuff popped out?

@Serela: You sound like you're so much better, All I remember from you is "guts" and "meta".
I do jacksquat when people don't even look at DrRawr till I pointed him out. I do jacksquat when people don't even look at Chaotick till I pointed him out. Screw your logic.
Still, I can see how I can be forgetful so I forgive you.

I want a claim.

His D1 starts out with a few jokeposts, prods for content, the gem above, followed by getting suspicious" and answering the few questions sent his way in one line.  His last post of D1 is merely saying Chaotick isn't going to be around (speaking of which, Chaotick, reads, now/whenever you show up).

D2. Complains about people using this forum for not!mafia happenings (hi), agrees with role shenanigans pointing to Raitaki behind the C.C. vote.  Disagrees with finding Bard scum with nothing to back it up, comments that ActionDan and himself might as well not exist.  He also votes Chaotick for only following up on people D1 while sort of acknowledging that he [Hero] has less content than Chaotick.
2nd post.  Withdraws his earlier rawr scumread (from D1, his vote was due to a prod for content despite rawr having a lot of content) {hey rawr, IIRC you haven't done much lately [i.e. LD2], where are you}.  Uses Shadoweh's arguments/points for backing up his Chaotick vote when confronted by him, then asks Raikaria to stop talking about C.C.
My main problem thus far is that he holds most of the reasons he's voting other people (including springboarding off of someone else to back up his Chaotick vote).  He went 27 hours between his 2nd and 3rd D2 posts.
Summary:
rants at Dan, admits to having no opinions, doesn't want to vote Zakeri, asking Serela for *reasons*, repeats what Conq said about Chaotick's post by post information dump, then says posting is too much effort and cuts the post "because my head is going to wifom theories".

So, his D2 is utterly lacking and exhibits many, if not all, of the traits that other people are being voted for.

This is sort of a ramble!post but I think it explains why I want Hero dead.
Hero has barely interacted with anyone at all, only ever really suspecting rawr and Chaotick.  I don't know what to make of either of those connections.

Oh yeah sure ISO reading me is so much easier if they are there with no other stuff inbetween
...Hey hey I have no idea about what some of the things are you are saying, because off the top of my head it sounds more on the extreme side of mis-representation, and the order seems wrong for alot of things. If you were going to do a post by post analysis the least you could have done was add links to it.

My questions and responses.

1) Okay sure,
2) I need to find reasons to disagree? weee. No I just never saw how bard is scum. Your posts don't do anything to convince me either.
3) Why the fuck do people take the slashes so seriously. If you are seriously saying I don't exist I'll slap you.
4) In what way do I have less content than Chaotick?
5) IN what way did DrRawr have alot of content at the time?

6) What the fuck? I don't even. In what way was I using that post to back up my vote? I was pointing to Shadoweh's post because it explains what townies should be doing in mafia in the first place. So how do you see me using that to support my vote on Chaotick. How and where do you see Chaotick actually CONFRONT me? He was AtE the whole damn time so how did he actually confront me when he wasn't even posting things we can really fucking use?

7) I ask Raikaria to stop because we all freaking know that. Its essentially fluff because we know its there. His constant reminding was not even need, because people who do forget about it, either purposely forgot about it scum or just didn't care scum. Its a Vote, a townies strongest weapon so the fact that people feel the need to constantly be reminded about it is freaking scary.

8 )... I specifically said "I don't have any motivation to vote him aside from the fact that most of my town reads are on him".

If I use meta, IHNN should most likely be scum, because when I compare him this game to what I remember of him in other games, he was most definitely more concise and less flipfloppy than this game. But since meta usually doesn't even matter~
How about this I claim now, and you claim right after Kay? I'm claiming now.

I am Haruhi Suzumiya, Town Super Detective I can Watch someone, and if they die I don't know who killed the person, or Track who watches this person and if he went anywhere. Its not like I used this effectively, aside from knowing a certain someone didn't do anything N1.

[Hero999]

Actually, I'm going to use how questionable your ramble about me was to
##Vote IHNN
Inb4 someone called OMGUS

[Raikaria]

Raikaikai you are not making sense to me and if you can't justify those reads given the claims going around I am going to kamikaze bomb your face into the thread.

...

Well me and you being town reads are obvious.

Conqurer is a common town read, and I don't think needs much explanation. Bardiche is pro-town because I've not seen anything that seems scummy, and he was scumhunting from the start of D1.

IHNN is similar to Bardiche, and I'm not getting scum vibes from him

Chaotik just looks like a newbie townie. He seems to be trying at least.

Serela I'm still 0_o over the whole fiasco Mid Day 2 which resulted in me and a few others voting him.

Rawr hasn't done anything particularly town or scum. Unless annoying people counts.

Hero's not done much, and unlike Chaotik, I'm not getting town vibes from his posts.

The arguments between Zakeri and Raitaki during Day 2, and the fact that neither stand out as prime examples of townies, due to each having a weak case on the other, and tunnelling to some extent during D2, makes me think there is at least one scum in those two. Zakeri looks more town to me than Raitaki, because at least he's pressed other people more.

Is that sufficient?

Also please, suicide is a crime Shadoweh.

[SirChaotick]

I just said that because those are the people I have the strongest town vibe with... although that's not entirely true for Zakeri. Why would I need other people to be far less town?

Just got back FYI, analysis continuation is being made.

[Shadoweh]

Yes but WHY do you have that vibe
##Unvote
Watcher tracker huh. I will think about that when I am not face

[SirChaotick]

Alright. Post by freaking post. Nothing shall escape me this time.

Raitaki#49: judges Raikaria as null, votes Hero for unexplained reason.
Zakeri#51: FoS on Shadoweh plus votes Hero for "frivolous attention throwing".
Acceptable for both seeing as they're hardly out of RvS. Wouldn't be otherwise.
Raitaki#52: judges Bardiche as overly aggressive towards Raikaria(which I agree with)  while saying he isn't all that wrong.
However, I am still of the opinion that Raikaria's game-theory talk was a figment of RvS, which Bardiche readily jumped on for "not helping the game along", in spite of nothing so far having helped the game along.
Raitaki#55: talks a little about the battery being low and justifies Bard as a classic Bard logicstaredown.
Once again I disagree since I'm of the opinion that Bard's logic was wrong anyway.
Raitaki#57-58: clarifies a little, then says he'd prefer a Raikaria lynch.
Eh? Why? I can't see how Bard doing his usual thing clears his faulty logic.
Zakeri#99: comments on Shadoweh being third-party for not having an agenda to lynch people(presumably because she doesn't vote), then asks Raikaria for clarifications. Nothing wrong with this one. Although I do have to comment on Shadoweh's post there being so abominable, but I surmise it's not too relevant anymore.
#103: thanks Raikaria. Okay...

Small interruption: I can not see how everyone at this point is nodding at Bard's logic.

#109: defends the claimers from Hero with logic. Sensible logic at that. Except for the part where he says that ActionDan was concerned with IHNN's role - I don't think that was the case.
Raitaki#115: criticizes Zakeri on: why Raikaria would be regarded as town(in spite of Raikaria's logic being correct), why he says Dan is concerned(which is valid) and how he's only examining three people... in spite of those people being the most interesting at that point. At least Shadoweh and Dan were the biggest suspects at that time. 1-2 for Zakeri there. Then proceeds to agree on Shadoweh(correct) and mentioning how bad Dan's play is(correct).

...I sacrificed my morning, now it's school time. Next episode to be expected in eight hours when I get back + homework.

Let's continue.

Zakeri#129: calls overreaction on the "cluttered" vibe, then makes some proper argumentation towards Hero.
Then he calls Raikaria's voting logical(good); talks some more about Dan being concerned(not so good), then he calls Raitaki out on forgetting his investigations of Bard 'n Hero. I have to agree with public opinion here and say this is not the case.
Then relegates Raitaki to the third party department and says something about consolidation.
Not very happy with this post: it's got quite some holes.
Raitaki#152: defends himself from Zakeri and Dormio while upping the offense on Shadoweh.
He puts slightly too little importance on his "cheerleading of Bard", and neglects that some of Zakeri's "pointing-outings" could be reason for voting as well. Fair post otherwise.
#155: defends himself from Dormio, again. However, I'm unsure how his phrases are supposed to justify his stance on Raikaria. Post bad.
#160: uses flavour to proclaim the C.C. vote as scummy and vote Zakeri in one fell swoop.
Eh? Flavour? When is that ever a valid reason?
#163: explains what the flavour implies- not that I think it's valid anyway.
#165: gets outlogic-ed by Raikaria and gives in(not because it's flavour though). However, he does not change his vote on Zakeri... I guess that's justifiable as otherwise a hasty hammering is possible.
#170: attempts to defend himself again. It's bad.
#173: explains his dissatisfaction with Zakeri. I disagree: his reads aren't plentiful, but they're there, and the post that he refers to most(#152) had its logic moderately off. Boo.
#184: hauls up his flavour reasoning again despite it being disproven... although that's in the past sense so it's a lot less incriminating.
#188: defines "party". Not sure how it changes much, but again, in the past sense so it doesn't matter all that much.
Zakeri#255(pretty long gap there): takes back his useless noise accusation, makes a good critique of Raitaki with the points I already have mentioned. Expresses confusion.

have to go sorry goddammit

[I have no name]

Before I respond I'm going to say that everything I posted was paraphrasing/my interpretation of your posts/intent.

2) I need to find reasons to disagree? weee. No I just never saw how bard is scum. Your posts don't do anything to convince me either.

You never gave any reasons why Bard wasn't scum, which did nothing to convince me otherwise.  Fair point on the other one.

3) Why the fuck do people take the slashes so seriously. If you are seriously saying I don't exist I'll slap you.
4) In what way do I have less content than Chaotick?
5) IN what way did DrRawr have alot of content at the time?

For a majority of D2, you essentially didn't exist.  Chaotick has at least been trying, even if he's been going about it the wrong way (which is why I want to lynch him and it's a different reason than why I want to lynch you).  Rawr was contributing to discussion, and he had a lot more content than you did at the time.

6) What the fuck? I don't even. In what way was I using that post to back up my vote? I was pointing to Shadoweh's post because it explains what townies should be doing in mafia in the first place. So how do you see me using that to support my vote on Chaotick. How and where do you see Chaotick actually CONFRONT me? He was AtE the whole damn time so how did he actually confront me when he wasn't even posting things we can really fucking use?

My interpretation of events.  I'm not going to condone lynching Chaotick right now.  It read as lazy play to me.

8 )... I specifically said "I don't have any motivation to vote him aside from the fact that most of my town reads are on him".

...which is a really confusing statement

If I use meta, IHNN should most likely be scum, because when I compare him this game to what I remember of him in other games, he was most definitely more concise and less flipfloppy than this game. But since meta usually doesn't even matter~
How about this I claim now, and you claim right after Kay? I'm claiming now.

If you want to see what I play as as scum go look at SYWTBTT.  Also I think I already claimed.  In...my first post of the game.

Inb4 someone called OMGUS

blatant OMGUS  :V

Chaotick:  you have information.  great, so does everyone else.  DO SOMETHING WITH IT

[Serela]

I'm sorry Hero but IHNN is a common town read iirc and I still think he is and it totally looks like a OMGUS vote </3

Also. I'm not going to say your claim is BS or something but. You worded it in such a ridiculously confusing way.

I can Watch someone, and if they die I don't know who killed the person, or Track who watches this person and if he went anywhere.

Can you please clarify what exactly these mean? Because I don't even. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being dumb. (I am dumb a decent amount of the time!)