Author Topic: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars  (Read 219129 times)

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #270 on: June 13, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »
So then BT, what about all those shooting games out there that are all or mostly about memo attacks? Are they inherently unfair by your reasoning?
If they take from the game's core concept, of course they are. Thing is, I'm referring to attacks that outright discourage dodging over memorization.
Memorization-based attacks, be they completely static or rooted in aiming, are a longtime staple of shooting games. To say that memo attacks do not fit into these games is just plain incorrect. The kind of problem solving aspect these attacks bring to the table is really no different than, say, figuring out how a platformer boss' attacks work, where you go "Okay, that method didn't work, let me try something else next time". There's nothing "unfair" about this kind of challenge, as far as I'm concerned.
Shmups are games where you confront a series of scripted obstacles and your task is to find the optimal way to overcome those. How can that not "promote learning"?
Seems like I didn't make this clear.

Big difference between patterns that promote learning and patterns that force it down.

By that I mean that learning patterns is a part of shmups but it shouldn't take away from the actual dodging. Patterns I'm talking about are patterns that are missing the point completely.
First of all, it's irrelevant whether people can capture it consistently. It's a bloody last word. You are not supposed to capture it consistently. It's supposed to be an extra challenge. That's what they are there for. IN is pretty weak on the challenge department (unless you are scoring) so having bonus cards like these, for those who desire something beyond the average Touhou Lunatic, is an excellent addition.
Letting bad patterns slide as 'bonuses' brings up the question of "why are they there in the first place?". I'd say that they 'add variety' just as much as they are a chore for perfectionists. Variety is fine as long as you watch what you include.
Secondly, what is your definition of stupid good then? Do you view your own skills as the natural amount of skill that you can expect people to amass and anyone who's got more is just stupid good?
How do you propose that I define something like that? I'm referring to 'super players' and the like. I never said my skill level is the natural level anywhere.

Zil

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #271 on: June 13, 2012, 03:21:15 PM »
It's one my personal favorite cards in the series. Right after VoWG, in fact. You just stream normally, then lurch to the left side of the 'corridor' that you're in, and that creates a huge gap for you to slip back to the right. Preferably you do it when the other butterflies aren't on the screen. It's simple and easy to understand.

An yes, you should expect to be forced to understand the patterns in a shooting game. That's literally part of the whole idea, just as you are forced to evade from BOSS ATTACK level 16! the random bullets.

Esper

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #272 on: June 13, 2012, 03:44:41 PM »
I find patterns unfair if they punish someone for trying to read them and promote learning them like some kind of automated machine instead -- these are shmups, not puzzle games.

So you find mostly every remotely hard pattern in Touhou unfair?
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #273 on: June 13, 2012, 03:58:14 PM »
So you find mostly every remotely hard pattern in Touhou unfair?
*headdesk*

My latest post, it exists.
An yes, you should expect to be forced to understand the patterns in a shooting game.
Duh. Pattern learning and and pattern reading should both take part in games. It's all in the ratio.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:27:34 PM by BT »

nintendonut888

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #274 on: June 13, 2012, 04:05:57 PM »
Apparently the root of the argument is that we have different definitions for 'unfair'. I find patterns unfair if they punish someone for trying to read them and promote learning them like some kind of automated machine instead -- these are shmups, not puzzle games. The more the pattern forces you to 'learn' it, the higher your skill level has to be in order to read it on the fly. You need to be stupid good to be consistent at UBS with reading alone (ergo, without a touch of luck involved). That to me is an indication of an unfair pattern.

Ha ha ha. Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Ahem...shmups are difficult games. They take both a lot of innate skill, developed skill, and quick reflexes to play effectively. However, while skill is a large part of how a shmup works, there's a limit to what skill will bring you. I put a large amount of credit for how I got to where I am in the series today to how I took the time to analyze attacks. Every non-spell, every spell, are their own world, especially in the photography games. You must learn the rules of each card, experiment to see what works and what doesn't, and develop new skills to aid you. THAT is how you get better, not some abstract concept of "experience." So no, I would disagree. These are puzzle games - they're just ones that test your creativity instead.

However, I'll go ahead and agree with you that games where pure memorization is required are pretty dumb, if only because it ruins the replay value. However, I implore you to find one that fits that description. And no, I do not accept IN as an answer, because the bosses are still quite random.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #275 on: June 13, 2012, 04:27:14 PM »
Ah, whatever. This conversation will go nowhere because I view things differently.

I think this was the accomplishments thread? Let's, umm, get back to those.  :(
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:29:24 PM by BT »

ark

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #276 on: June 13, 2012, 05:25:10 PM »
All done today: UFO Lunatic 1ccs with MarisaA, SanaeA, and SanaeB, so now I have clears with all 6 shot types. MarisaB was definitely harder than these.

Last one contains 0D3B Byakuren, which is my best so far.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 05:32:25 PM by Nereid »

ark

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #277 on: June 13, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »
However, I'll go ahead and agree with you that games where pure memorization is required are pretty dumb, if only because it ruins the replay value. However, I implore you to find one that fits that description.
psikyo games :V

couldn't resist sorry

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #278 on: June 13, 2012, 07:20:08 PM »
It's far from unfair, compared to stuff like Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana but I don't wanna start a rant here. :P
But SFN is awesome. Have you tried timing it out?

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #279 on: June 13, 2012, 07:39:10 PM »
Why yes I have. Fun times indeed!  :derp:

 ;)

ふねん1

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #280 on: June 13, 2012, 07:49:52 PM »
MoF Lunatic 1-life clear!

Fuck yeah! This was my first attempt that got past Aya too. I know I bombed through VoWG this time, but my heart was beating too hard for me to care.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of thinking." - Carl Sagan

NEW AND IMPROVED YOUTUBE, now with 60 fps Touhou videos! Latest video update: WBaWC Lunatic/Extra no-miss no-bomb no-Roars no-Spirit-Strikes compilation.

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #281 on: June 13, 2012, 07:58:39 PM »
1L meaning a No Deaths run? Or a run with one death? Either way, congrats, though isn't MoF No Bombs even harder? (I recall you did that as well)

I have no name

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #282 on: June 13, 2012, 08:04:45 PM »
They're both hard for different reasons.

No bombs you have no choice but to try to dodge everything.
No deaths you have to balance risk of "should I try for this capture?" and "can I survive to get back up to power?"

ふねん1

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #283 on: June 13, 2012, 08:07:52 PM »
1L meaning a No Deaths run? Or a run with one death? Either way, congrats, though isn't MoF No Bombs even harder? (I recall you did that as well)
No deaths. If I died at all, then it wouldn't be a clear on 1 life as the name implies. And thanks. ;)

If you ask me, "not bombing" is a lot easier to do than "not dying". I can control myself to simply not press the bomb button at all, no matter the difficulty of the attacks I need to face. But one small slip up in a no-deaths run and the whole thing is shot.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of thinking." - Carl Sagan

NEW AND IMPROVED YOUTUBE, now with 60 fps Touhou videos! Latest video update: WBaWC Lunatic/Extra no-miss no-bomb no-Roars no-Spirit-Strikes compilation.

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #284 on: June 13, 2012, 08:25:23 PM »
Nice going Funen. Also, nice score. Another little reminder that I really need to get into improving my own silly three miss score.

Why yes I have. Fun times indeed!  :derp:

Did you succeed?

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #285 on: June 13, 2012, 08:36:30 PM »
I didn't even survive the first half. It ranks among my hated spells list so I didn't bother with it for long.

Esper

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #286 on: June 13, 2012, 09:05:29 PM »
Finally got around to making another Double Spoiler video.

I spent 14 minutes 15 seconds on Red Giant and then decided to ragequit.

It gets pretty funny.
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #287 on: June 13, 2012, 09:09:59 PM »
Let's: Spontaneously time out Lunatic Marisa's Asteroid Belt despite completely forgetting the rhythm for the horizontal movements.

1/1 tries.

This was super cool because I had to work around my fuckups as a result of bad horizontal movement. I also had to avoid her random 'walls' a time or two. Replay was GONNA be here but I accidentally chose the option that lets you try again. :/


edit-ers

Brilliant Dragon Bullet or whatever Lunatic Kaguya's first spell is. I've taken a bizarre liking to it all of a sudden

Died 13 seconds away from a timeout. I was in the zone. :(

edit-ers v2

1 second left.

1 second left.

My face hurts. I facepalmed too hard.

Is it me or are the laser patterns kinda static?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:35:38 PM by BT »

BT

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #288 on: June 13, 2012, 09:57:19 PM »
There we go, Brilliant Dragon Bullet Lunatic timeout.

I'll try doing this at the center of the screen sometime.

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #289 on: June 13, 2012, 09:58:21 PM »
I think it actually is, at least that's the impression I got when I tried to time it out.

I managed to 1cc Marine Benefit on Hard, but a lot of lag was involved. Then proceeded to try the Extra but nope, shit is unplayable at that point. Each spell is pretty much a festival of lag and sudden speed up which causes me to die to stupid things. Too bad, the game is really fun otherwise and has a lot of great ideas. :/

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #290 on: June 13, 2012, 11:45:43 PM »
So, I just attempted a LLS Hard 1CC. This was my very first attempt at this, not counting a horribad one that I closed at Stage 2.

I didn't succeed, but I think I did something even better than succeeding.

I PERFECTED STAGE 5 YUKA. And let me reiterate that this was my very first battle with Stage 5 Yuka on Hard.

I really, really wish I was recording this because somehow I doubt I'll be pulling THAT off again.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:48:07 PM by Malkyrian »

Esper

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #291 on: June 14, 2012, 02:18:02 AM »
Let's Play Double Spoiler Part 9: The part where I break down to Red Giant, spending 14.25 minutes on it, and ragequitting at the end of it.

I rage pretty badly to this card. It gets funny.

P.S.: Why does everyone ignore my videos? It's as if I don't exist.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 02:24:58 AM by Ace »
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #292 on: June 14, 2012, 02:23:25 AM »
To me the way the butterflies are aimed are unnatural enough to make the whole thing a crapshoot.

I already told you but I guess you're determined to ignore me. Stream to the left, and you won't have to worry about the aimed butterflies, except when you have to jump to the right (do this when the unaimed butterfly waves aren't on screen so you can just focus on the aimed walls).

Whether attacks needing to be memorized is a bad thing is a whole 'nother discussion. I actually have a similar distaste for memotrash, which is why I like EoSD with all its "pure dodging" attacks that don't rely on memorization. But Unseasonable Butterfly Storm IS NOT a memo spellcard. Not even close to one. The meat of the card is dodging the unaimed butterflies while streaming to the left - and dodging those random butterflies is obviously not memorization based.

EDIT: Sorry for being off-topic.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 03:05:49 AM by Star King »

チソウ タイゼン

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #293 on: June 14, 2012, 03:13:35 AM »
@Ace

Open your own thread in HRE. That's what I did and I got a decent amount of attention for what, 7 videos?
I need to start that again.


Esper

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #294 on: June 14, 2012, 03:23:13 AM »
@Ace

Open your own thread in HRE. That's what I did and I got a decent amount of attention for what, 7 videos?
I need to start that again.

Wait, HRE? Did you mean HME? I'm sorry, I'm new with this kind of thing.
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

チソウ タイゼン

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #295 on: June 14, 2012, 03:38:49 AM »
Ahahaha. I can't focus today, I'm sorry. I just got off an 8 hour sleep shift after 5 hours of sleep.
Yes, HME. I'm sorry.


ark

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #296 on: June 14, 2012, 01:34:31 PM »
UFO Lunatic Stage 4 no deaths/bombs/UFOs. Not very hard.

Replay / Niconico (60fps) / YouTube

Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #297 on: June 14, 2012, 01:50:23 PM »
Not very hard.

Pretty much agreed if it weren't for that god forsaken third non-spell. Not that hard to dodge on it's own but if there are any leftover bullets from single Vortex then...  :V Maidens die.

Esper

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #298 on: June 14, 2012, 01:55:12 PM »
UFO Lunatic Stage 4 no deaths/bombs/UFOs. Not very hard.

Replay / Niconico (60fps) / YouTube

Nereid, I hope you don't mind, I'm stealing borrowing your Sinkable Vortex and Dipper Creeping Close strategies.

Kinda need to conserve resources on Hard :getdown:

Funny thing is, I captured Dipper Creeping Close on my first try then never again.
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

ark

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Re: Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars
« Reply #299 on: June 14, 2012, 01:57:59 PM »
Sinkable Vortex
Watch out, sometimes she doesn't move in the direction you want her to. In that case, have fun :VVVVVVVVVVVVVV