Cardboard rehab: TCG/CCG thread

[hyorinryu]

Just found out Ancient Fairy Dragon is getting banned. RIP (yugioh)

On the other hand, I found out people are selling the version I have for $40.

[commandercool]

So I don't know that much about Yu Gi Oh, but I know the basic rules I think. Why is it getting banned? I looked it up and I dunno, it seems good I guess. Is searching for field spells super important or something? Aren't there a bunch of other ways to do it? I guess it destroys your opponent's if they have one, and if you destroy theirs and you don't have one then you get card advantage even though you lose advantage to make it. Is the other effect good? Do you want to skip combat to get a monster?

[Amew The Fox]

Field Spells in YGO tend to vary from bad to busted. While I never had much experience with the Synchro stuff, there are a lot of FS that care about getting blown up. Ordinarily, this was meant to get some value out of it if your opponent played one of many spell removers, but AFD can blow these spells up of your own volition, and you get LP for it.

also summoning additional monsters just seems to keep becoming a stupidly powerful effect



In the GX-era, Konami thought this was an acceptable effect. It sat on the banlist for years until an errata came around.

[hyorinryu]

So I don't know that much about Yu Gi Oh, but I know the basic rules I think. Why is it getting banned? I looked it up and I dunno, it seems good I guess. Is searching for field spells super important or something? Aren't there a bunch of other ways to do it? I guess it destroys your opponent's if they have one, and if you destroy theirs and you don't have one then you get card advantage even though you lose advantage to make it. Is the other effect good? Do you want to skip combat to get a monster?

I don't know the specifics but it seems that it used in a couple FTKs and in a decktype that was strong in the meta, specifically SPYRALS. Not everyone seems to agree with the ban. Honestly, most of the field spells in my experience have been underwhelming, but there have been a few good ones. Ancient Fairy Dragon was probably most useful abusing field spells that gave you something when they died. Searching it up, SPYRAL Resort is a field spell that lets you search cards once per turn. Ancient Fairy Dragon let you kill a Resort, fetch another Resort, and activate that Resort for another card. It's other ability let you summon what you added for more tempo, leading to more stuff. Just what I see so far.

Field Spells in YGO tend to vary from bad to busted. While I never had much experience with the Synchro stuff, there are a lot of FS that care about getting blown up. Ordinarily, this was meant to get some value out of it if your opponent played one of many spell removers, but AFD can blow these spells up of your own volition, and you get LP for it.

also summoning additional monsters just seems to keep becoming a stupidly powerful effect

Well, in GX, there was nothing you could do with beasts you summoned. Beasts as an archetype was nonexistent. Rescue Cat probably used your normal summon, so you couldn't tribute summon, and even if you special summoned it somehow, there were better engines (Treeborn Frog.) Plus the card was impossible to search for, making it inconsistent.

What happened in the 5Ds era was that they made relevant beasts, in Airbellum since he was a tuner. So you go Cat->Airbellum+beast-> synchro summon. Another thing they added was summoner monk which made searching for cat easier. It also allowed for fun plays like playing monk, using him to find another monk, then using that monk to find cat, then using cat to summon double airbellums for two syncho summons using the airbellums and the monks. Then there was good ole Dark Strike Fighter who'd turn large tempo plays into OTKs. Two Dark Fighters on an open field could end the game. I loved 5Ds era yugioh.

Also, do people actually care about LP now? Back when I played LP didn't really matter unless it stopped you from using Divine Warning or some other card with an LP cost.

EDIT: Corrected it. Thanks.

[commandercool]

The rule in Magic is that dedicated lifegain is usually bad, but incidental lifegain tacked onto other effects is great. It can really give you some slack to get off to a slow start or cushion big opposing plays, so if you can gain life then you might as well do it. It's just usually not worth losing a card on unless your opponent is spending cards just to direct damage you and you can gain significantly more life with one card than they can deal in damage.

That said, there's a solid tier-two deck in Modern Magic that's built around gaining tons of life off of Martyr of Sands, which is almost certainly the best lifegain card ever printed.



One activation puts you out of reach, and the deck is built around bringing her back over and over and searching out more copies to activate her as many times as possible. If you can get a Martyr of Sands engine online with any card that lets your revive one consistently then you basically can't lose to conventional win conditions, and the deck wins by taking advantage of cards that need you to be at a high life total. I think Matsuri used to play the deck, it's kind of good.

Meanwhile in Pauper, my favorite format, a lot of decks play Radiant Fountain packages.



Radiant Fountain is a weaker-than-normal land that gains you a non-trivial amount of life, and it's commonly played in decks that use a lot of different cards that require you to return lands to your hand as a cost. You re-play Radiant Fountain turn after turn and the amount of life it gains you over the course of a game can be completely back-breaking for a lot of aggressive decks. They tend to just run out of steam before they can race the incidental lifegain. It's not as obviously game-changing as Martyr, but it's oppressive to play against sometimes.

[ditt93]

Searching it up, SPYRAL Resort is a field spell that lets you search cards once per turn and when it died.

No, the searching of another Resort(or any field spell) is AFD's effect.

[hyorinryu]

No, the searching of another Resort(or any field spell) is AFD's effect.

Oh, you're right. That's my bad. I guess I misread it. I'll edit the post.

[Mеа]

oh right, the AFD ban haha lol that. Haven't been keeping up to date with ygo stuff for the past couple weeks/months but I do remember that one.

AFD is supremely easy to make now that Destrudo is a thing. Pitch it to the graveyard somehow, then you get an instant lv7 synchro off of any lv6 or lower monster on your field. Last time I checked he was in a bit of a decline in usage though I think?

AFD enables both monster spam and getting another field spell. Why monster spam is great in a game full of monster spam probably doesn't need mentioning. The latter is about a trend of the rising power of recent field spells, usually letting you get a search off when you activate it. You would activate one field spell, get a search, use AFD's effect to activate another field spell from your deck, get another search, that kind of thing. If your archetypal playmaker is special summonable off of AFD's effect, then even better. Letting your opponent resolve their field spell is pretty dangerous since it often starts off the whole chain of plays. AFD can let you activate them twice, and you can see where this is going.

I looked it up and I dunno, it seems good I guess. Is searching for field spells super important or something? Aren't there a bunch of other ways to do it? I guess it destroys your opponent's if they have one, and if you destroy theirs and you don't have one then you get card advantage even though you lose advantage to make it. Is the other effect good? Do you want to skip combat to get a monster?

First turn there isn't any battle so it doesn't matter, and the way the game is now you don't even need battle to get anything you need off the board. Battle destruction is usually the least reliable way of trying to get something off the field. The way of searching for field spells is by using Terraforming (search 1 field spell from your deck), and that's about it. There was another way (Set Rotation) but that got hit recently, and the other other method (Metaverse) is way too slow (it's a trap). The life gain and removing the opponent's field spell is only a bonus, if at all. Life points don't mean jack. You're alive until you're dead and that's about all there is to say about life points lol.

[hyorinryu]

Yeah, I haven't played YGO in a while, but usually spells were fairly difficult to search for. One of the few things that keeps the game from going completely out of control lol.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

The rule in Magic is that dedicated lifegain is usually bad, but incidental lifegain tacked onto other effects is great. It can really give you some slack to get off to a slow start or cushion big opposing plays, so if you can gain life then you might as well do it. It's just usually not worth losing a card on unless your opponent is spending cards just to direct damage you and you can gain significantly more life with one card than they can deal in damage.

That said, there's a solid tier-two deck in Modern Magic that's built around gaining tons of life off of Martyr of Sands, which is almost certainly the best lifegain card ever printed.



One activation puts you out of reach, and the deck is built around bringing her back over and over and searching out more copies to activate her as many times as possible. If you can get a Martyr of Sands engine online with any card that lets your revive one consistently then you basically can't lose to conventional win conditions, and the deck wins by taking advantage of cards that need you to be at a high life total. I think Matsuri used to play the deck, it's kind of good.

Nah, I played Soul Sisters.

You're thinking Martyr Proc, whose MO is to basically keep blowing up your opponents' field with Wrath of God/Day of Judgment and keep recurring Martyr of Sands and Serra Ascendant with Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Proclamation of Rebirth. Also has Ghostly Prison and stuff. The goal is to keep gaining life every turn by recurring the Martyr to spike your life up to insane levels and make it hard for opponents to attack, so that even if they do get damage in, you're gaining life faster than they can hurt you.

Martyr Proc's a prison/control deck. Soul Sisters is a lifegain aggro deck which uses a bunch of low CMC creatures to incrementally gain life (Soul's Attendant/Soul Warden) to exploit Ajani's Pridemate, Serra Ascendant, and Archangel of Thune as huge beatsticks. Not all variants of the deck play Martyr of Sands, but mine did, because it made Turn 2 6/6 Flying Lifelink Serra Ascendant a thing.

That said, if I ever go back to Modern, I'd give Martyr Proc a try. Seems cool.

[commandercool]

I thought Soul Sisters ran Martyr and Proclamation, but you're right of course, they are completely different decks. That's... kind of odd now that I think about it. They're weirdly similar yet very different.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Soul Sisters: Aggro Martyr Proc
Martyr Proc: Control Soul Sisters

[commandercool]

Speaking of martyrs, I played against a Delver player running Martyr of Frost earlier. It was super spicy and good. Not good enough to not get gobbled up by Delver's natural predator Pestilence, but still a neat development...

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I so wish Judge's Familiar, Cursecatcher, and/or Mausoleum Wanderer were at common so I could play that super nifty mono blue control deck from Modern. I'd need Quickling too...

[commandercool]

You've got Spiketail Hatchling and Kor Skyfisher! That's basically the same, right..? With Martyr of Frost and Ninja of Deep Hours you could probably do a pretty good impression. And at that point you'd just be basically playing Delver.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Hmm. I'd almost agree, but I think I'd want more flying sacrifice fodder. That, and I specifically need Quickling due to Spellstutter Sprite synergies.

Still, it'd make for a spicy deck if it works. Flashy bouncy disruption is the best.

[commandercool]

You don't need Quickling to make Spellstutter Sprite work. People play Spellstutter and Fairie Miscreant in Delver and they're more than fine. Countering 1-3-mana plays is more than acceptable and you can recycle with Ninja and Vapor Snag.

That said, a WU Delver deck that runs the usual Spellstutter, Miscreant, Ninja package and also Kor Skyfisher and maybe even Whitemane Lion seems pretty decent.

I've been obsessed with the idea of UG Delver with Rancors and pump spells lately, so while we're going down the wrong-colored Delver rabbit hole already WU Delver seems interesting. UB, UR, and mono-U Delvers are all things already...

[MatsuriSakuragi]

You don't need Quickling to make Spellstutter Sprite work. People play Spellstutter and Fairie Miscreant in Delver and they're more than fine. Countering 1-3-mana plays is more than acceptable and you can recycle with Ninja and Vapor Snag.

That said, a WU Delver deck that runs the usual Spellstutter, Miscreant, Ninja package and also Kor Skyfisher and maybe even Whitemane Lion seems pretty decent.

To be a better replica of Quickling, it'd have to be Whitemane Lion. Kor Skyfisher is good, but I'd pick Flash over Flying because it allows for quicker plays in reusing Spellstutter Sprite. And I guess Faerie Miscreant may be okay because bounceflashing it potentially gives you a card, but it is kind of counter to the idea of the Mono-Blue/UW Martyr decks in Modern, where the goal is to have as many cards in your deck capable of countering spells-- thus a playset of Judge's Familiar, Mausoleum Wanderer (previously Cursecatcher), Spellstutter Sprite, Quickling for bouncing, and Martyr of Frost, with cards such as Sky Hussar for extra card draw. Spell Queller could also be good, perhaps.

It's possible in Pauper, I just don't know how passable it could be. Probably better to just run Delver, which is already Counterspell City.

I've been obsessed with the idea of UG Delver with Rancors and pump spells lately, so while we're going down the wrong-colored Delver rabbit hole already WU Delver seems interesting. UB, UR, and mono-U Delvers are all things already...

I've also been considering that possibility and I like it-- You can get those Rancors pretty fast with all your card filtering and cantrips, and it also lets you stock up on Vines of Vastwood and potentially Groundswell pretty quickly as well (Giant Growth being possibly more reliable in such a deck).

[commandercool]

I've never seen anyone play Giant Growth. But Vines, Hunger Of The Howlpack, Mutagenic Growth, and Groundswell see play in that order.

Rancor is not an instant or sorcery which is a little sketchy for Delver, but some Delver decks run a one or two-of Bonesplitter already, so...

Edit: The more I think about this the more I like UG Delver as a concept. You can play Vault Skirge, and you can bluff pump spells with Ninja to swing into blockers and get free cards...

[MatsuriSakuragi]

I think it has a lot of potential, and Vault Skirge is cool and good. I kind of want to see where you go with this.

[commandercool]

I've tried to put together a list but slots are just so tight. I think the best way to go about this is just to buy all of the pieces I might use and just keep playtesting and tweaking until it works. That'll be semi-expensive to buy by Pauper standards, but I'll start picking up the pieces.

[Third Eye Lem]

I'm slowly but surely attempting to make something resembling a sacrifice-and-recycle Commander deck...But in the meantime I've been getting my Magic fix from Eternal of all things. Egad, I haven't played this game for more than a few days and I'm already addicted. It's just so satisfying to swarm an opponent with buffed creatures and Grenadins are like the cutest things ever aaaaaa ;w;

The game also has referrals, so if anyone wants one, just PM me (or I can just paste it here, I dunno how people would feel about that tho).

[commandercool]

By the way, for anyone potentially interested in getting into Pauper, you may want to start picking up staples now because they're most likely going to go up quite a bit soon. Now that Pauper is a sanctioned format expect to see Brainstorm, Preordain, Counterspell, Rancor, Lightning Bolt, Prophetic Prism, Chainer's Edict, etc on the rise. And if you feel like investing then Oubliette, Utopia Sprawl, Tron lands and Ash Barrens are probably decent bets to buy into.

[Tamer Anode/Cathode]

I'm slowly but surely attempting to make something resembling a sacrifice-and-recycle Commander deck

I'd say track down the Commander 2015 green/black precon if you can find it for a decent price because that gives you a solid framework to build on for this sort of deck.

Anyway, the Rivals of Ixalan full set reveal is up now. Kind of a bit weird that 4 of the commons in this set are reprints from original Ixalan, but there's plenty I look forward to playing around with in a draft

[commandercool]

I expect to see hotheads losing their goddamn minds and threatening to quit over the reprints aaaany second now...

I was anxiously awaiting the UG flip enchantment and it did not disappoint. There's a lot of real solid stuff in this set. I'm definitely more interested in it than I was in Ixilan.

[Tamer Anode/Cathode]

I expect to see hotheads losing their goddamn minds and threatening to quit over the reprints aaaany second now...

I was anxiously awaiting the UG flip enchantment and it did not disappoint. There's a lot of real solid stuff in this set. I'm definitely more interested in it than I was in Ixilan.

Honestly I'm okay with it because one of them had to be reprinted to make a draft strategy work and two of them are vanilla creatures that exist to fill the power curve so I imagine even the more easily aggravated players won't be inclined to care.

I like the flip enchantments/lands, and I'm still kind of shocked that Vault of Catlacan got printed. The BG one is probably my favorite considering I can see the immediate utility of it.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Speaking of Pauper, I'm gonna be building GW Slivers, Elves, Burn, and MBC minus Oubliette.

I wonder what I could replace Oubliette with though?

Here's what I kinda narrowed it down to.

Obviously there aren't any comparable enchantments, but creatures do fit. (as far as double black costs go)

I was also considering Bubbling Muck as a way to maximize black mana for Crypt Rats.

[commandercool]

I talked to someone about this last night, and MBC without Oubliette just isn't the same. That said, Faceless Butcher maaaybe does the best impression. Still adds two black devotion at least.

Some black control lists run Liliana's Specter and I think it's pretty solid. It's good with Unearth unlike the Butcher.

Actually, the guy I was talking to last night was saying that UB Control is a much stronger budget alternative than Oubliette-less B Control. Maybe look into that? You get to play some great stuff for sure.

[MatsuriSakuragi]

Liliana's Specter was the one I was going to ultimately pick, I think.

And UB Control is a completely different deck, and it's one I've always found to be boring. I love playing control but pure control decks are just so painfully grindy. I like aggressive, disruptive control. I think of MBC as less a control deck and more a devotion deck, for what it's worth.

edit: unless there's a UB version of MBC?


Now that I've looked at prices, I may need to hold back on a deck or two. I really want to build Slivers, but Elves is really pricey, as is Burn. So hard to decide.

[commandercool]

You might be able to splash blue into monoblack control, yeah. Ghostly Flicker would be pretty gross with... any creature you run. Except Cumboaj Witches I guess.

Played in my first FNM since Lorwyn last night. Played Sarcophagus Control and went 2-1-1, placing second because of a technicality (otherwise would have been third). I learned a lot of things about the deck, but so did my opponents. There was one Mardu player who I only beat because he kept misplaying (Lost Legacy for Settle The Wreckage when he should have hit Drake Haven).

Lost Legacy is a real problem, and I think I had at least one cast against me in 50% of my games. I have a backup win condition to hedge against it and I do run counters to hopefully dodge it, but it's still so good against me that it makes my deck feel kind of questionable.