Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -13F

[Spiffspoo]

Very nice.

Does anyone know exactly what was changed after the shadow boss rush?
The text says that the layout of the tree has changed, but I haven't seen anything different myself.

Also, does anyone know how to get this treasure chest?
http://i.imgur.com/VqctHE9.jpg

[DarkAtma]

I actually trough i had that item, checked all unexplored side squares on 9F and nothing, and i dont think 10F extra got any holes to fall, so i am blank in this

[ditt93]

Also, does anyone know how to get this treasure chest?
http://i.imgur.com/VqctHE9.jpg

You can't.

[Spiffspoo]

Why is it there then 

[ditt93]

Why is it there then 

A few of us decided to think of it as content for future patch.

[qazmlpok]

I wish to complain again by throwing out numbers.

Magatama has an initial speed of 720. Def and Mnd are both 256,000.

By my calculations, after he uses catastrophe, his speed is increased to 3727.
Also his regeneration causes buffs to decay twice as fast.
And the speed formula means that speed debuffs aren't as useful - 3727 speed is 903/tick. 50% debuff means 1863, or 643/tick. 71% of the original value. Not that it's really feasible to debuff someone moving so quickly and getting a free turn every turn.

So, yeah...

[Serela]

Yeah, Magatama is crazy. IIRC it's attacks were not as scary, though and affinites weren't as wall-y. The issue eventually becomes more that it's just so damn fast.

HP reduction is also easier to get through than MP reduction so long as you don't get sniped before Reimu/Rumia do their thing.

The orbs aren't nearly as problematic, partially because it's possible to nuke one out right away depending on your party composition; the Magatama/Mirror are just absurd.

[qazmlpok]

Yeah, magatama was a lot less threatening compared to mirror at first. Regeneration was annoying, as I couldn't quite play defensively, but Eiki was doing ~200k since his affinities aren't insane.

Then I hit catastrophe. Yeah...

I finally found a video on it. He's weak to dark, but I never noticed that starbow break was dark. So he finished magatama off with a single 1.3m or so break right after it used catastrophe. He's only ~15 levels ahead of where I am, but I'm only able to do about 200-300k. Probably more if I can get in a few debuffs, but that's not easy to do.

Either way, she's definitely going to be key. It takes a mere 12 ticks for him to followup on catastrophe; if I use Aya, Flandre, and Eiki all at once it might be possible. But oh man is this going to be dependent on luck. Eiki might survive a single hit, but Flandre is gonna go down from literally anything multitarget.

[Serela]

I'm assuming that's with Gambler Flandre. You might consider (if not already have done) switching Shikieiki to gambler (without the takes-increased-damage passive if you need her decent durability) for the sake of more burst damage to get through post-catastrophe, as well.

Those 15 levels make a big difference when you're overcoming the def ceiling, for better or for worse.

[DarkAtma]

Has nobody actually found out what is that item? even if using cheat engine to walk trough walls or something of the sort? Or...I believe you can edit the floor tiles in the game files, just add a path to it?

[qazmlpok]

I'm assuming that's with Gambler Flandre. You might consider (if not already have done) switching Shikieiki to gambler (without the takes-increased-damage passive if you need her decent durability) for the sake of more burst damage to get through post-catastrophe, as well.

Those 15 levels make a big difference when you're overcoming the def ceiling, for better or for worse.

Yeah, I switched Eiki to gambler too. Although doubling her MP cost means she can only shoot twice (exactly 24 MP with 12 cost), I definitely needed the extra damage. I did finally get him; set him off with Eiki, then quickly switched in Flandre and gave Eiki another turn. Fortunately I had Aya out, as I actually wasn't expecting him to use his attack so soon.

It occurs to me that if the order of the bosses was switched a little, putting Magatama before Mirror, the bossrush would be far more difficult. Right now, Magatama is the last boss, so ending the fight with everyone at 1 HP doesn't hurt anything. But if you then had to fight Mirror, who would open by draining everyone's MP...

Oh well, just orbs left. I gave it a quick go with Yuyuko and Komachi, trying to land a quick Dth. I didn't check Reverse's actual ailment resistance in shadow-form, but I couldn't land anything after like 10 tries, even with Reisen out. Oh well. He's weak to dark and vulnerable to terror, so using paru on him should be fun.

[Koog]

I've just fought Paralyzing Wasp's Shadow. And laughed on how literally Nitori took half of it's health with a single attack (damn Sanae's Miracle Fruit works like wonder). Then, Komachi and Satori rushed to kill it.

[Nerv-Faktor]

Is the hardmode in LoT2 properly balanced?

I remember LoT1 being pretty unforgiving at times, but never unfair (except for a few bossfights like Eiki where everything just came down to luck) and I liked that.
The parts of LoT2 I already played a while ago seemed a lot easier in comparison, but I think the hardmode didn't exist back then.
Will going with hardmode on my first serious playthrough give the LoT1 experience or will it absolutely wreck me and is not recommended on a NG?

[Axel Ryman]

Hard Mode isn't that hard really. You just can't overlevel/overpower yourself to beat bosses, which you don't need to do. All bosses in the main game are beatable within the challenge level.

[Spiffspoo]

Hard Mode isn't that hard really. You just can't overlevel/overpower yourself to beat bosses, which you don't need to do. All bosses in the main game are beatable within the challenge level.

I don't even want to think about the post game on hard mode...  That is meant to be over leveled for stats then you level yourself down.
I don't remember LoT1's post game, before the plus disk, being that hard except the V2 of the last boss.  That is WAY harder than the V2 last boss for LoT2.
I was expecting the LoT2's V2 last boss to put up more of a challenge, only took 2 tries to beat him.
But overall the post game for LoT2 is harder I think. V2 Touhous were a joke in LoT1, and the only threatening extra bosses were the twins and of course the V2 last boss.

[Validon98]

Hard mode ends after you beat the final boss anyways, so there is no hard mode post game to worry about. It's kind of dumb, but oh well.

[Serela]

But overall the post game for LoT2 is harder I think. V2 Touhous were a joke in LoT1, and the only threatening extra bosses were the twins and of course the V2 last boss.

It varies a lot by how much you level, since they each give you a giant grindwall and it's very unclear when to stop- especially since in LoT1 it's basically required to keep fighting on 20f until you get all the rare drops.

Anyway, about LoT2 difficulty; the game has actually had a lot of rebalancing since before hard mode was added. Bosses have been significantly rebal'd 2+ times since then (to be made harder and less cheese-able via speedkills), player roster has had some stat buffs, etc. That's not to say the game is killer hard or anything, but it's not a pushover... maybe. YMMV, by a lot, because heavy customization and different party members that are more unique than LoT1's cast (where you mostly just needed tank/buffheal/nuker and you were set). You can make the game your bitch if you play your cards well, but doing that is harder than it used to be, and postgame can feel kinda unfair at times :V (Even if you can just overlevel and destroy it)

[Spiffspoo]

Hard mode ends after you beat the final boss anyways, so there is no hard mode post game to worry about. It's kind of dumb, but oh well.

Hard mode ends after the last boss? Does the boss rush at least have the hard mode enabled?
I assume the Foe on floor 16 has a hard mode as well?  He isn't exactly post game, but is a higher level than the last boss.

It varies a lot by how much you level, since they each give you a giant grindwall and it's very unclear when to stop- especially since in LoT1 it's basically required to keep fighting on 20f until you get all the rare drops.

Anyway, about LoT2 difficulty; the game has actually had a lot of rebalancing since before hard mode was added. Bosses have been significantly rebal'd 2+ times since then (to be made harder and less cheese-able via speedkills), player roster has had some stat buffs, etc. That's not to say the game is killer hard or anything, but it's not a pushover... maybe. YMMV, by a lot, because heavy customization and different party members that are more unique than LoT1's cast (where you mostly just needed tank/buffheal/nuker and you were set). You can make the game your bitch if you play your cards well, but doing that is harder than it used to be, and postgame can feel kinda unfair at times :V (Even if you can just overlevel and destroy it)

I remember seeing a few tube videos of some hard modes, like the dark goddess, and they healed for more than I remember them doing in normal.
I bet they are still easier than the shadow versions at challenge level.

I cheated to get at least 1 of  each of the rare drop items in LoT1, I didn't have the patients for that part. I think I was between level 100 and 120 for the LoT1 finaly boss, and I think I cleared everything before the the plus disk except the V2 final boss at the 120-140 range.  I didn't have to level the individual stats as much as in LoT2 either. But that V2 final boss require something like level 200 I think. I didn't clear that until right around Eiki I think, since you needed to beat her to advance to the next floor.

[Axel Ryman]

Hard mode ends after the last boss? Does the boss rush at least have the hard mode enabled?
I assume the Foe on floor 16 has a hard mode as well?  He isn't exactly post game, but is a higher level than the last boss.

FOE's aren't really tied to the Hard Mode restrictions, but it's not advisable to fight him until around the time you're ready to fight the Final Boss.

You're free from the Hard Mode restrictions upon beating the Final Boss, but you can still be within challenge level for the Boss Rush if you want.

[Kirin no Sora]

Hmmm I don't know, it doesn't seem like Sanae's character to make skills cost zero. Maybe a skill with chance to cause her spell to be stronger. Or chance to cause her single target spells to become area spells. Or chance to recover MP for front line at the start of her action if she is in front line.

Sanae is also a VERY potent party member until Byakuren mostly obsoletes buffing characters. Miracle Fruits is amazing and her heal is already fine imo, especially if she miracle fruits herself (which is a good idea because spd/def/mnd) And she already recovers party TP at the end of battle sometimes, even without being in the front four. Recovering front line MP is Reimu's passive and Sanae doesn't even have a single target skill normally?

Yeah, but it makes more sense to me for the other suggestion, chance to have MP cost = 0.

Both her heal and buff are single target. I was mainly referring to those skills.

Hm...

The reason for me stating the "Ability to Create Miracles" as a "chance for the party to cast a spell for free" skill is threefold.
1. This skill makes it so that she'll be useful in a unique way while on the front line, as her "chance of restoring TP after the end of battle" skill does nothing for her or her allies during a fight. Since most of Sanae's skills are party oriented, having a skill that benefits the party like this would fit in with that in mind.
2. This skill ensures that she is still of use after the superhuman monk essentially makes all other buffer type almost obsolete, as a chance for 0 MP spellcasting is always useful in a fight, regardless of who's in the party.
3. As I recall clearly, Sanae is considered as a "person who struggles to stand out among a team of powerful supports", so giving her a unique way of support helps her out in that regard.

Since her heal and buff are fine as is, I suggest that her offensive spell cards be altered a bit, like this:

Moses Miracle
What stays the same: CLD element, uses MAG stat, good at piercing MND, MP cost.
What would be changed: Is now single target, leveling up spell ignores more MND, like how the Monk's nature attack spell can pierce more and more DEF.

Night with Bright Guest Stars
What stays the same: uses MAG stat, MP cost, targets all, doesn't miss.
What would be changed: Is now MYS element, gains special effect "weakens enemy buffs by (SLv * 10)%"(maxed out spell mimics old effect of Yuuka's "Beauty of Nature" spellcard).

Nine Syllable Stabs
MP Cost: 4
Post gauge use: 50%
Row Target, SPI element, uses MAG stat.
Special effects: Can inflict Shock, Paralysis, Heavy.
Leveling up spellcard increases damage and chance at inflicting said ailments.

Reason for changes: Moses Miracle is essentially made into a CLD element, MAG stat based version of Leaning Iron Mountain, which works well if you actually want to use her offensively(which works well if she also has Grand Incantation as a skill to buff her attack power first).
Night with Bright Guest Stars was granted the power to reduce the enemy's buffs because Yuuka's "Beauty of Nature" no longer uses that effect, so it's been freed up for use, and this spell had a special effect in the first game(which was rendered useless by the fact that EVA doesn't work back then), so granting it an effect would make sense here.
And Sanae had Nine Syllable Stabs in the first game, and remembering what said spell did in the Touhou canon games made me think that it could be used as a "binding" technique against enemies. The reason for it being a row targeting spell is to ensure that it's not overpowered(Sanae can't replace Cirno in Paralyzing enemies, for example), and the reason for it being SPI element is that so one of her spells can benefit from her "SPI attack spell boost" skill(I changed the element of Night with Bright Guest Stars to MYS to increase her options for elements, and for flavor, since starlight is still light, which means that it being MYS element makes more sense).
Finally, having one spell for damage and two others that have utility purposes helps her to stand out a bit more when she's not being a dedicated healer/buffer.

And I do hope I'm not annoying you guys with this stuff...

[ZXNova]

Hm...

Since her heal and buff are fine as is, I suggest that her offensive spell cards be altered a bit, like this:

Moses Miracle
What stays the same: CLD element, uses MAG stat, good at piercing MND, MP cost.
What would be changed: Is now single target, leveling up spell ignores more MND, like how the Monk's nature attack spell can pierce more and more DEF.

Night with Bright Guest Stars
What stays the same: uses MAG stat, MP cost, targets all, doesn't miss.
What would be changed: Is now MYS element, gains special effect "weakens enemy buffs by (SLv * 10)%"(maxed out spell mimics old effect of Yuuka's "Beauty of Nature" spellcard).

Nine Syllable Stabs
MP Cost: 4
Post gauge use: 50%
Row Target, SPI element, uses MAG stat.
Special effects: Can inflict Shock, Paralysis, Heavy.
Leveling up spellcard increases damage and chance at inflicting said ailments.

Reason for changes: Moses Miracle is essentially made into a CLD element, MAG stat based version of Leaning Iron Mountain, which works well if you actually want to use her offensively(which works well if she also has Grand Incantation as a skill to buff her attack power first).
Night with Bright Guest Stars was granted the power to reduce the enemy's buffs because Yuuka's "Beauty of Nature" no longer uses that effect, so it's been freed up for use, and this spell had a special effect in the first game(which was rendered useless by the fact that EVA doesn't work back then), so granting it an effect would make sense here.
And Sanae had Nine Syllable Stabs in the first game, and remembering what said spell did in the Touhou canon games made me think that it could be used as a "binding" technique against enemies. The reason for it being a row targeting spell is to ensure that it's not overpowered(Sanae can't replace Cirno in Paralyzing enemies, for example), and the reason for it being SPI element is that so one of her spells can benefit from her "SPI attack spell boost" skill(I changed the element of Night with Bright Guest Stars to MYS to increase her options for elements, and for flavor, since starlight is still light, which means that it being MYS element makes more sense).
Finally, having one spell for damage and two others that have utility purposes helps her to stand out a bit more when she's not being a dedicated healer/buffer.

And I do hope I'm not annoying you guys with this stuff...

It isn't really annoying, it's nice to see theory'ing.

Anyway, I see no need for 'Night with Bright Stars' to be Mystic considering that the type of character Sanae is. A living god/human shrine maiden. Mystic element is more reserved for magicians, youkai, and things in between, the 'magic' element. And divination and magic are not the same. Everything Sanae does revolves around manipulating miracles, wind, nature and water, nothing really 'mystical'. So even though a mystic attack would create more diversity within her moveset, it wouldn't really fit her theme. Not saying mystic would be entirely contrary. The only other elemental that could fit Sanae are cold and dark attacks. Dark because Sanae can indirectly use the Mishaguji through Suwako, which are curse gods. (Which makes wonder why Suwako has no dark attacks. I know the Mishaguji are also agricultural gods, but they're all about curses ya know)

[qazmlpok]

Do the elemental skills actually work?

I'm trying to cheese Culex (since I can't fathom any other way to fight him) by opening with Leveatein. It worked well, but then I remembered that Mokou should be able to raise its damage significantly. Marisa's skill on the wiki says 20% * SLv, and I assume that they all do function the same.

But...

Without Mokou: http://i.imgur.com/NIt6GD2.png
With Mokou: http://i.imgur.com/CCCZZzW.png

That's about 10% less damage. Which is within the natural damage variance, but that just makes me think this skill isn't doing anything. Has anyone seen them actually work?

ok I just remembered that Alice is a strategist, and therefore raises all damage by 10%.

And I tried the flamelong sword and it didn't seem to raise damage at all. It also lowered her mag, so I can't tell if that just counteracted it.

[Wymar]

So I know a guy who's currently playing LoT2, and recently managed to beat Mokou after what appears to be forever, and the game's, to paraphrase, draining his soul. Is there a way to prevent that from happening, without a)preemptively removing his soul, or b)stopping to play the game?

[Serela]

Uhm. Are you asking us how to prevent him from not liking the game? If he really just doesn't enjoy the game there's not much reason to keep playing.

As for Mokou's passive not working, huh. I tested it just now using 1F enemies and I definitely got a 40% damage boost. I was using Mokou's attack so I can't quite say it works for the whole line but it should? Okay nevermind, I just tested it with Flan; there was big damage variance (I could get 12~16m (1.6?)  without blazing and 16~20+m with, based on just a couple battles, small testing sample) but it worked.

[Spiffspoo]

I use Sanae to get Byakuren to 100% stats in 2 turns, so I don't have to wait, and made Sanae a magician.
The magic circuit also decays slower with a Strategist on the field, so it is a very nice synergy.

As for Mr Crystals, here is what I did.
I used bulky characters at first, since so much damage is going out, and I used Yuyuko to try to kill instantly kill the wind crystal with death. 2 turns at most.
I used Maribel to Heal and give +24% extra damage for characters next attacks as well, this is an extremely great spell.
After that I would focus on the Earth Crystal with Suika, only took 3 attacks to kill with the wind attack.
I would use Leveatein after that, or after 2 of Suika's attacks, to kill the water crystal and leave the fire up while I pew pew on Mr. Crystals.
I would kill the Fire Crystal Last. Shredder would get annoying leaving the water crystal up so long, but it was easier to manage for me.
Try Hina out to Mass debuff, just watch out for that Dark Star attack that takes the debuffs away on Mr. Crystals. And it does a long of damage.

I had 3 of those Flame Swords on Flan, it worked well for me.

[qazmlpok]

As for Mokou's passive not working, huh. I tested it just now using 1F enemies and I definitely got a 40% damage boost. I was using Mokou's attack so I can't quite say it works for the whole line but it should? Okay nevermind, I just tested it with Flan; there was big damage variance (I could get 12~16m (1.6?)  without blazing and 16~20+m with, based on just a couple battles, small testing sample) but it worked.

Hmm, strange. I certainly didn't have a large sample size, but it really didn't seem to do any good at all. Same with the flame sword, although I only had the one. The strategist bonus "probably" worked. It sure would be nice if someone with more time and knowledge of assembly than me could figure out the damage formula, at least to NOP that annoying variance.

In related news, I did kill him. Two shots of Flandre took out everyone but guardian himself and the fire crystal. Yuuka was more than enough to clean up the rest. Aya really shouldn't have that turn spell, it's way too powerful on a speedster like her.

[ZXNova]

In related news, I did kill him. Two shots of Flandre took out everyone but guardian himself and the fire crystal. Yuuka was more than enough to clean up the rest. Aya really shouldn't have that turn spell, it's way too powerful on a speedster like her.

You're overestimating Aya. Divine Grandson's Advent isn't too powerful on her, considering that it leaves her at 4000 ATB. This really makes you have to think before you use the move because if you do it at the wrong time (and considering how fast these bosses can be), you would end up getting completely wiped. It was OP when it left her at 6000 ATB (you could just literally spam it with no consequence) but now you can't do that.

EDIT

The Japanese Wiki has updated the character parameters to 1.203 now. Now it lists Momiji with the highest defense growth, etc.
http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/99.html

[qazmlpok]

You're overestimating Aya. Divine Grandson's Advent isn't too powerful on her, considering that it leaves her at 4000 ATB. This really makes you have to think before you use the move because if you do it at the wrong time (and considering how fast these bosses can be), you would end up getting completely wiped. It was OP when it left her at 6000 ATB (you could just literally spam it with no consequence) but now you can't do that.

I disagree. As evidenced by that fight.

Regardless of the post-use delay, proper timing lets you use a strong nuke twice. Flandre hit 10k, used leveatein, then Aya hit 10k and let Flandre fire again. That alone is pretty broken, honestly - with LoT1's lev, it set everyone's gauge so low that Flandre would outspeed everyone anyway and get her next turn naturally. LoT2 drains over 2400 ATB, and the debuffs are trivial. For a speedster like Aya, that's barely anything. If it was at least Kaguya like in LoT1, it'd take longer to recover that loss (which should also be larger, but that's another issue).

4000 postuse isn't that bad either. Honestly I'd say it should be lower, at least at low levels. Like 0 at slv1 and 4000 at slv5.

[ZXNova]

I disagree. As evidenced by that fight.

Regardless of the post-use delay, proper timing lets you use a strong nuke twice. Flandre hit 10k, used leveatein, then Aya hit 10k and let Flandre fire again. That alone is pretty broken, honestly - with LoT1's lev, it set everyone's gauge so low that Flandre would outspeed everyone anyway and get her next turn naturally. LoT2 drains over 2400 ATB, and the debuffs are trivial. For a speedster like Aya, that's barely anything. If it was at least Kaguya like in LoT1, it'd take longer to recover that loss (which should also be larger, but that's another issue).

4000 postuse isn't that bad either. Honestly I'd say it should be lower, at least at low levels. Like 0 at slv1 and 4000 at slv5.

You kind of restated my point. You need proper timing. Also, The key to problem you brought up isn't exactly Aya, it's Flandre. She just does ridiculous amounts of damage. (And the whole highest atk growth really urks me)
I never played LoT1, so I don't know exactly what you're speaking of. Pure speed Aya is pretty strong yeah, and is broken with Diva subclass. Otherwise, Aya is strong but not OP.  4000 ATB postuse is good enough, because even if you use her post speed you will likely still run into bosses that are very fast (i.e. Wasps, Magatama after 50% HP), even then, you have to think about it. Not sure how much money you're putting into speed.

[Kirin no Sora]

It isn't really annoying, it's nice to see theory'ing.

Anyway, I see no need for 'Night with Bright Stars' to be Mystic considering that the type of character Sanae is. A living god/human shrine maiden. Mystic element is more reserved for magicians, youkai, and things in between, the 'magic' element. And divination and magic are not the same. Everything Sanae does revolves around manipulating miracles, wind, nature and water, nothing really 'mystical'. So even though a mystic attack would create more diversity within her moveset, it wouldn't really fit her theme. Not saying mystic would be entirely contrary. The only other elemental that could fit Sanae are cold and dark attacks. Dark because Sanae can indirectly use the Mishaguji through Suwako, which are curse gods. (Which makes wonder why Suwako has no dark attacks. I know the Mishaguji are also agricultural gods, but they're all about curses ya know)

Personally, I had always equated her starlight spells and skills as such, but if being SPI elemental sounds better, then I have no problem with that, since that would mean that said spell can benefit from her "SPI attack boost" skill. (I kind of don't remember if said spell was SPI or MYS element in the first game, so I ran the spell with the thought that maybe it was MYS in the first game? If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

Also, I think that you might be right on Suwako and her Mishaguji-sama spellcard, though. My thought is that since it's NTR element at present, it can be buffed by her "NTR attack boost" skill.
Personally, I would have "Croaking Frog is Eaten by Snake" spellcard come back as her NTR nuke, turn the current NTR nuke into a all targeting, MAG based attack that targets defense, and set "Mishaguji-sama" as a strong composite DRK element move that can deal debuffs on ATK, DEF, MAG, and MND(Being composite makes it strong regardless of her build, although high DEF and MND combined will nerf it horribly, even if it was set to ignore half of all enemy DEF and MND.)

Back on Sanae, what do you think of the rest of the changes to the spellcards(including the special effect of Night with Bright Guest Stars)?