Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -13F

[Koog]

I'm also wondering about subclasses for Alice and Kogasa...

[Serela]

Pharmacologist is a good subclass for tanks with spare turns. Use Herb of Excitement on whoever's about to attack (It lasts for two of their turns for 36% extra damage at max) or use Placebo Effect on people with like 50~70% buffs to keep them high up. Incense Treatment isn't much good- it's highly situational and even then it costs 5 points instead of 3 to level, and is really costly to use until maxed.

Kogasa depends on whether she's attacking or tanking. Hexer Kogasa as a tank can make good use of Arm Twisting to debuff anything (22% debuff at max level), or she'd be fine as any other support sub (although even if you have Parsee it seems like a dubious tank choice if you aren't going Hexer). As an attacker, it's the usual of either Warrior or Monk.

Alice is fine as Sorc (or maybe Monk) to boost her offense or you can go for Transcendent to boost her tankiness some at the same time. People whose main job is just "deal damage" are pretty straightforward to subclass. You don't even get Transcendent for a long time and skilling it out takes a lotta skill points.

If you don't think it'd be a big deal for them to burn through MP really hard, you could just go Gambler and not use it's passive that makes them take doubled damage, only taking the double mp cost one for 60% extra damage. But... generally it's probably too much of an issue.

1. One must realize that Momiji is often used as a bulky fighter in late game for a reason, this is why I would give her Monk as a means to make her faster, hit harder, and even heal and buff herself automatically every turn.

Huh? We were talking about subclasses for her built as a tank. If you were building her for ATK instead, that's an entirely different situation so my advice wouldn't really apply- she'd be using her attacks, not needing support skills.

[Hawk]

Super Tenshi defeated.

Wriggle - 62
Cirno - 65
Mystia - 63
Rumia - 62

Wriggle was a Guardian, the other three were Enchanters.  Wriggle had all her level up bonuses in def, and had 2 Intamas.  At 100% def buff, she took 40~ damage from Tenshi's buff counter.  At around 50% def buff, she took around 800 damage.  With 4000 max health, this was never a real problem.

It was a very long battle of whittling her down with poison and Rumia piercing while being in little-to-no actual danger.

[Trickster-kun]

I've done it!   \o/

I want to move on to the postgame but I don't know what to do... I still see the final boss' symbol, I can't find Boss Rush, I can't get past the rocks in 12F, the Strengthen Bosses aren't showing...  :ohdear:

[Yookie]

The final boss is rechallangeable, so the icon will stay.
The Boss Rush is in the northeast part of the final boss's area. Once you beat that the strengthened bosses show up.

[Trickster-kun]

The final boss is rechallangeable, so the icon will stay.
The Boss Rush is in the northeast part of the final boss's area. Once you beat that the strengthened bosses show up.

I can't see it...

[Yookie]

This might be a version issue.
I'm playing on 1.203 (don't even know if that's up to date)
and it might be that 1.151 did not yet have the post-game content.

[Kirin no Sora]

Huh? We were talking about subclasses for her built as a tank. If you were building her for ATK instead, that's an entirely different situation so my advice wouldn't really apply- she'd be using her attacks, not needing support skills.

True, true...

But the fact remains that building her as a pure tank doesn't work out as well as one would like, given that she only has stuff that helps her to attack as far as skills and spells go. Even her unique skill that boosts the front line's accuracy helps more for her offense rather than defense, I think that in the end, Momiji ends up as a bulky fighter because of said options. A subclass is needed to make her go full tank(Guardian, Healer), but as she is, she seems to be just as well suited to using Warrior or Monk to make the most of her skill set(namely, her accuracy boosting skill, which helps a lot when you don't want Explosive Flame Sword to ever miss, or when you want to turn Momiji into the closest thing that you'll get to a Critical Hit Class in this game via Puncturing Thrust and the Monk's passive boost towards accuracy).

Honestly, I wish that Momiji had been given Impact Attack, so that her attacks can deal Shock and slow the enemy down a bit. Also, replace her "increased damage towards flying enemies" skill with Beat Down.

[CrazyManiacz]

Yeah, Version 1.151 doesn't have the post-game content (Boss Rush, Strengthen Bosses)
Version 1.203 is the latest version if I'm not wrong.

[Trickster-kun]

Hahaha, the update was in the thread itself. I have fixed my problem now, and am progressing through the 11F extra area.

Damn, these new enemies hit like TRUCKS. @_@ I can still gain levels every so few battles in the last 20F area so I might do that for a while until everything becomes more manageable... plus I need stat points.  :ohdear:

[Hawk]

12F Ame-no-murakumo defeated.

I'm beginning to think elemental affinities work differently in this game--they seem significantly stronger.  Perhaps they've been moved to pre-mitigation?

[Ghaleon]

If that was the case than kogasa's dark nuke (assuming no mnd debuffs on boss) would smack it for more than 0 before debuffs, but it hits for 0 (well it did at my stat level at least). Meanwhile monks using leaning mountain could hit it for like 10-20k. Pretty sure remi would hi the mirror for 0 too but she was able to damage it (not alot, but not horrible either).

[Serela]

I'm beginning to think elemental affinities work differently in this game--they seem significantly stronger.  Perhaps they've been moved to pre-mitigation?

Are you sure it's not a case of the affinity number itself being higher? It'd help to know the context of your suspicion, for that matter, but I'm pretty sure the end result is "there's not really any way it's not the same"

[Hawk]

Wriggle has 100 base SPI affinity.  While attempting to kill Super Tenshi, her debuff counter (SPI element) would deal about 3000~ damage to Wriggle.  When I *removed* defense granting gear, replacing them with Intamas, which I had 2 of, bringing me to 300 SPI affinity, the damage went down to about 40.

If it worked like the old game, I should've been taking approximately 1/3 the damage I was before, or 1000~, but that didn't occur.

Obviously this is just one example, so I'd like for someone else to see if they can reproduce the strange effect.  Maybe I'm just missing something.  I dunno.

[Serela]

Damage went down to... 40? There surely had to have been something else at work. I did similar things against Tenshi, for that matter, and certainly didn't have such dramatic effects.

[Kirin no Sora]

Did any of the equipment mess with EVA? Because if I remember correctly, that stat can affect damage in more than a "hit or miss" situation.

Otherwise, it could be that affinities affect the result more because 300 affinity now does not equal "damage reduced to 1/3rd", but "damage reduced to less than 1/3rd"...

If this effect only happens on that one attack, then that means that it's that attack that got nerfed instead...

[Sungho]

EVA doesn't effect received damage in any way. If it hits the character, that is.

Are you sure it wasn't just 12F Tenshi?

By the way, How did you defeat the 12F Ame-no-Murakumo?

[Hawk]

Well, shit.  Looks like the achievement bug was as bad as I feared.  None of Renko's bosses are appearing.

Does anyone happen to have a save right before them?  I might be able to use it to study the save file format to see if I can "fix" my save.

By the way, How did you defeat the 12F Ame-no-Murakumo?

I was around level 80, and the Team 9 buff is strong.  His speed can be debuffed fairly easily, and almost all of the damage came from Rumia's Dark Side of the Moon.

His full party attack can be evaded.  I never evaded the single target one, but Wriggle could survive it pretty solidly with 300 SPI resistance.  It was somewhat luck-based.  I needed him to not target my 3 non-Wriggles.  If I remember correctly, Cirno died, but after she'd already brought his speed down to -50%, so I was able to continue.

[Xarizzar]

It was somewhat luck-based.

Oh, how many tries did that take?  :3

[Serela]

Did any of the equipment mess with EVA? Because if I remember correctly, that stat can affect damage in more than a "hit or miss" situation.

There's no miss/scrape/hit/crit system in this game. I meant to respond to this when you talked about a momiji crit build.

[Garlyle]

Wow, why the hell did I wait so long to get into this game?  I was waiting for a translation patch, didn't realise that 'enough' was translated quite a while ago, am a dork, that's why

LoT2 is beautiful and this game is exciting all over again oh my god.

The text for it was a little difficult to read due to line length, but Hard Mode appears to have been "individual stat bonuses can't exceed level * 1.2" and "all bosses must be fought with parties of the displayed level or lower", right?

[Yookie]

That's basically it.
Additionally the party-level is no longer the average of everyone but that of the character with the highest level.
These restrictions are lifted upon beating the final boss of the story.


Renko became more useful in the post-game because she now has the skillpoints to actually use her stuff. Since both her spells carry some demerits that aren't affected by leveling the skill up they aren't all that impressive on Lvl1.
I'm still kinda disappointed by Mokou's performance as a tank though. She's basically become a meatshield that is not able to debuff as well as Hina, given that she even gets to take a turn.
But I'm too lazy to replace her. :V (And I wouldn't know with whom. Maybe Wriggle or stuff but I don't even really "need" half my party most of the time and the file is almost done anyway so, eh.)

[Axel Ryman]

Wow, why the hell did I wait so long to get into this game?  I was waiting for a translation patch, didn't realise that 'enough' was translated quite a while ago, am a dork, that's why

LoT2 is beautiful and this game is exciting all over again oh my god.

The text for it was a little difficult to read due to line length, but Hard Mode appears to have been "individual stat bonuses can't exceed level * 1.2" and "all bosses must be fought with parties of the displayed level or lower", right?

HA


Good thing I told you to play it

[Serela]

The "lines running off the screen" issue should be fixed in the next patch release since Deranged has been cleaning everything up. Exciting! Meanwhile, you'll see a lot more of that in descriptions.

Renko became more useful in the post-game because she now has the skillpoints to actually use her stuff. Since both her spells carry some demerits that aren't affected by leveling the skill up they aren't all that impressive on Lvl1.
I'm still kinda disappointed by Mokou's performance as a tank though. She's basically become a meatshield that is not able to debuff as well as Hina, given that she even gets to take a turn.

If you teach Renko DEF/MND boost and gear her up for it, she can get the highest combined def/mnd in the game, even better than Rinnosuke (along with far higher affinities), so she's definitely pretty cool. The only thing is deciding between Enhancer to power up Charge more and significantly lessen the HP cost (making it easier to use) or go Transcendent to make her even more gloriously tanky. Base stat increase is pretty heavy on characters with Maintenance, so she's also an awesome candidate for Gems.

Mokou's usefulness also comes from her 20% regeneration, 3 mp regen instead of two for using subclass skills with, Blazing passive, and in the bosses with a ridiculous attack that'd probably down anyone (of which there are several). Definitely give her a First Aid Kit and one of the mega-hp-increase items- with Resurrection and Regeneration you definitely want to play up her HP. I figure you're already utilizing the items with combined great increase on def/mnd and affinities, since Mokou's def/mnd are still good enough to want to pump.

[Garlyle]

Good thing I told you to play it

Yes, thank you for that actually.  I'm already up to like 6F help I think I might have a problem

Since I'm not reading any of the actual character descriptions, I wonder how completely incorrect I'm being in assessment of some of the characters' usefulness in this game.

[Serela]

It's probably better to make your own opinions than go off the descriptions anyway- some of them are outdated due to character rebalancing, some of them I just don't really agree with, and in several cases you can make other effective ways to creatively use people.

[Yookie]

Mokou's usefulness also comes from her 20% regeneration, 3 mp regen instead of two for using subclass skills with, Blazing passive, and in the bosses with a ridiculous attack that'd probably down anyone (of which there are several). Definitely give her a First Aid Kit and one of the mega-hp-increase items- with Resurrection and Regeneration you definitely want to play up her HP. I figure you're already utilizing the items with combined great increase on def/mnd and affinities, since Mokou's def/mnd are still good enough to want to pump.

The thing is that Hina regenerates about the same when she is fully debuffed with the Hexer passive, I have nobody with any relevant fire damage to use Blazing and never really had any problems with bosses oneshotting my people. (Not even that boss who's supposed to kill anyone in one hit. I shock-locked him to death).
Mokou became just a backup for the case that Hina ever died but in most cases where that happened the fight was lost anyway. Hina is just too good since my party is also pretty much tailored around her so that all relevant people that tend to stay out are immune to debuffs and I have Sanae and Rumia to cure them.

If you teach Renko DEF/MND boost and gear her up for it, she can get the highest combined def/mnd in the game, even better than Rinnosuke (along with far higher affinities), so she's definitely pretty cool. The only thing is deciding between Enhancer to power up Charge more and significantly lessen the HP cost (making it easier to use) or go Transcendent to make her even more gloriously tanky. Base stat increase is pretty heavy on characters with Maintenance, so she's also an awesome candidate for Gems.

I am unable to use such items because of my conservative nature when it comes to these kind of things.
The tomes are limited so something in me tells me to not use them ever and while the stat gems are farmeable via the final boss that isn't too efficient.
Yes, they can be reset but that itself is limited to only so many times.
It's just a flaw I have.
Renko is a great EVA tank by the way, except that most relevant boss-attacks have perfect accuracy.

[Serela]

Renko is a great EVA tank by the way, except that most relevant boss-attacks have perfect accuracy.

Yeah, I noticed.

If it helps, you can get all your tomes/gems back if you use a Tome of Reincarnation- those are ALSO limited but you get more than you should ever possibly want to use. No one can benefit from increased base stats like people with Maintenance can.

e:Oh, you mentioned the reset thing. I mean, I'm kind of similar, but only in that I want to save it until I'm -sure- it's the best way I could use them and I won't regret it later.

[Dodging_Rain]

If you teach Renko DEF/MND boost and gear her up for it, she can get the highest combined def/mnd in the game, even better than Rinnosuke (along with far higher affinities), so she's definitely pretty cool. The only thing is deciding between Enhancer to power up Charge more and significantly lessen the HP cost (making it easier to use) or go Transcendent to make her even more gloriously tanky. Base stat increase is pretty heavy on characters with Maintenance, so she's also an awesome candidate for Gems.

Due to mainenance, you can also stack elemental affinities to absurd levels and cutting down damage to a fraction.  This combined with the fact that she regenerates when concentrating or if she takes a turn while Maribel is on the field which is enough to put Komachi to shame.  However, I can hesistant to really put transcendant on Renko since att/mag and 10% increase damage is wasted on her as she will still be hitting like a little girl even with maintenance.  If you have her dedicated towards tanking, it may be better to use guardian instead. 

On the subject of maintenance, anyone else think the percentage should be lowered?  It turns Nitori into a gamebreaker and Renko into a tank that makes most other tanks obsolete.

[Serela]

The reason you would turn Renko into Transcendent instead of Guardian is because

A.You get a percentage damage reduction on Transcendent already, so you don't miss the guardian's
B.The base stat increase is gigantic compared to the one you get from guardian, and for someone with maintenance, that makes a BIG difference. When I made Nitori transcendent I think her def/mnd increased by about 20%- it's not quite as drastic on Renko, whose starting base isn't as low, but it's still very significant.

She can't make use of the damage increase but it's not like it's "wasted"; you generally aren't really using several of the tools a subclass gives you anyway. How often does anyone's Enhancer actually use their subclass skills? (Okay nevermind, my Yukari used the atk/mag buff sometimes and earlier in the game I had Enhancer Sakuya to help out since buffing wasn't easy yet and extra attack is cool)

Also, the best affinity gear later in the game (not counting the +100 for rare specific situations) already boosts your def/mnd by large quantities, so you get them both at once. I guess if you wanted to use the Guardian's def/mnd buff skill there's that, but in postgame the only reason you wouldn't be using Byakuren is because you just really don't like her or to challenge yourself. Charge is still useful but you wouldn't really bother burning spd/MP to refresh the def/mnd buff, is what I mean.

Efficient Concentration -is- kind of nice to use Charge more, admittedly  (Easygoing's heal is minor if you don't build for it, it's still a nice addition but) but you probably won't need it too often regardless due to Byakuren, especially since on a non-Enhancer Renko it really hurts to use it. I'd call Guardian a distant third option that's still got upsides, but not a particularly worthy one compared to Enhancer or Transcendent.

Also, yeah, Nitori is just crazy, given she'll become as tanky as your tanks in a FULL ATTACK BUILD and has one of the strongest attacks in the entire game, with the gigantic mp recovery potential to spam it despite cost and delay. I wouldn't say Renko exactly makes other tanks obsolete since lots of other tanks have special qualities and her moveset is limited and begs for certain subclasses unless you just ditched it for Pharmacologist (viable but lol) and, quite honestly, you get Renko SO LATE IN THE GAME that I'm kind of glad she's got enough of an edge to shine a little. Maribel is kind of meh other than her passive to treat enemy buffs as debuffs, but she's quite versatile at least and many late postgame bosses buff themselves sometimes so I didn't feel like I wasted the slot... but yeah she's generally pretty eh.