Author Topic: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears  (Read 56180 times)

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2013, 06:43:02 PM »
because those players totally just did it out of random and didn't need to grind their asses off for them. I bet people like 水月 have more playing hours in ONE game than you or I do in all of them combined.

a NMNB run is definitely something only the very best (or very luckiest :V) can achieve through legit means. every such run deserves some hell of recognition.

水月 was previously known for his Easy/Normal scoreruns, which in order to be world level does require the player a high dominance over Lunatic (like Nereid's). But I just recently found out he specialized in NMNB Lunatic clears. He also does have a L1MNB run on EoSD, so I'm expecting him to perfect it sometime, if he gets lucky (because that's how EoSD works). There's also Clio, that recently published a screenshot of him dying in SG with several lives and bombs in stock, meaning he lost the perfect right there. I'm really hoping one of them perfect it soon....

RNG

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 08:49:29 PM »
Books, Killing Doll, God Art, Scarlet Gensokyo... I don't see how anyone could attempt an EoSD NMNB unless they hated themselves.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2013, 01:24:03 AM »
Well, I'd compare Books to Kanako's opener. I never see these pro japs failing (even in scoreruns they have confidence to not bomb it), but I get raped when doing it myself. :V

But the biggest problem is Remilia who loves walls.

Zil

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 01:30:41 AM »
Kanako's opener is nothing compared to those books.

They're pretty hard. That, along with Killing Doll and Meister, are probably the biggest obstacles. It doesn't strike me as being that difficult, honestly. Just significantly more luck dependent than most of the other games. I'm still pretty surprised nobody seems to have done it, but it's certainly due to a lack of commitment, not ability. PCB, IN, and UFO are all probably harder. I think MoF and SA lack specific points of high difficulty/luck. edit: maybe not PCB. It's been a year since I played it so I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 01:35:14 AM by Z-MasterFunk »

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2013, 01:34:49 AM »
MoF
PWG is the big one, Momiji can almost wall with bad movement, Source of Rains can throw nasty waves, Hydro Camouflage can throw some nasty waves, nothing else is that RNG dependent.

I could probaly get a NDNB MoF lunatic if I were to play nothing but that for a few hours a day every day, but I don't have the dedication for that.  I do have the dedication for a no bomb run though...I just need to stop sucking :V

RNG

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 01:35:06 AM »
SA depends on character. I can see ReimuC being easier to to a NMNB with, but ReimuA gets DBDB and that combined with Catwalk are certainly big luck spots.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2013, 02:53:25 AM »
The amount of people who perfected MoF is mostly because in order to get world-level scores you have to perfect almost everything, as dying gives you a huge score penalty. Not like UFO, which in the current Sanae-A world record run  ended at Byakuren's banana lazors. But there's even a NMNB which the player gets 2.1 billion with Marisa-C, so the RNG isn't THAT evil there, or not as much as in EoSD, which would be at max rank the whole time in a NMNB run. But IHNN is right about the lack of people playing it compared to the later games. I don't remember any Lunatic score being updated after Ichizoku's 698m, and that score isn't that new. And the only people I know that MIGHT be trying to perfect it is Miduki, Clio, and maybe Phar.

Also, just google translated Miduki's description on his 1MNB run, looks like he died on Thousand Needles Mountain due to nervousness. Judging by the date he submitted it (2012/12/10), it's sorta likely he'd come out with a perfect sometime soon. And just found 水月/Miduki's twitter... it looks like he's working on perfecting GFW.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 03:09:54 AM by Wriggle »

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2013, 03:13:00 AM »
The amount of people who perfected MoF is mostly because in order to get world-level scores you have to perfect almost everything, as dying gives you a huge score penalty.
That doesn't mean you have to perfect it, it just means you have to no-death it. The reason why perfecting it is relevant is that not being at 5 power on later bosses costs you a lot of point items.

@Bang Jan: Probably just a slowdown program, since that replay's date isn't May 6th. The only Windows savestate program I know of is Hourglass, which appears to leave evidence of its usage as a date of May 6th, 1829. See kopiapoa's EoSD replay list or any known TAS scorerun other than Ansa121's slowdown-only UFO run. Not sure that date restriction is entirely forced though.

Edit: Something that may be relevant about EoSD: the current 698m record actually deliberately saved one bomb which ended up being used on Scarlet Gensokyo, which suggests a lack of a reasonable perfect rate on Remilia. I say this because from a scoring perspective, Sakuya's bomb drop probably would have been better used an earlier phase since Scarlet Gensokyo has a significant spell bonus. Contrast with UFO Lunatic records, which have been reaching Byakuren 0/0 for as long as I've been watching scoreruns.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 03:22:50 AM by Karisa »

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 03:35:00 AM »
Yeah that's what I meant. If you die, you lose a lot of faith (I think so), but if you bomb, you lose point items, so the ability to perfect it consistently is needed, though you don't need necessarily do capture VoWG, like some of the Lunatic WRs don't.

And well, I've been actually in doubt it that bomb was for survival or for bullet cancelling. Which one would score more?

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 07:17:41 AM »
It was for survival.

You bomb a lot in high level MoF.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2013, 10:53:40 PM »
EoSD:
Clio - ReimuB - www47.atpages.jp/thclio/replay/th6_ud0005.rpy

Ladies and gentlemen, it has been done. Finally all of the main windows Touhou games have been cleared No Miss No Bomb on Lunatic!!! I got the replay from Clio on twitter by asking him whether he had the replay, I honestly didn't expect him to give it out to the public like that! I looked at the replay (and his 1MNB and 2MNB runs) with some people from IRC on stream, and came to the conclusion that it is not TAS, and it really is legit.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 10:56:09 PM by cactu »

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2013, 11:01:46 PM »
Would you bother to also ask if he used the hitbox patch on this one as well, since game modifying patches tend to invalidate the run.

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2013, 11:07:42 PM »
Would you bother to also ask if he used the hitbox patch on this one as well, since game modifying patches tend to invalidate the run.
By that logic almost everything I've done is invalid due to using the English patches.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2013, 11:12:10 PM »
By that logic almost everything I've done is invalid due to using the English patches.

This is so stupid...

Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2013, 11:17:43 PM »
Not every single English patch modifies the gameplay aspects, you do not have kanji shooting at you, now do you.

Royalflare tend to be rather strict about the requirements though (IN english patch is forbidden, for example), especially if there are modifications to the gameplay. The hitbox patch does not only do that, but it also makes some dodges more comfortable. I usually go by what royalflare would accept, or accepts, and I highly doubt they would accept retexture and hitbox patchs.

Hence, the run is not completely the real deal. It still is good stuff and surely not TAS, Clio is a good player, but probably does not want to advertise much since hitbox patch usage.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2013, 11:29:19 PM »
It's the real deal with a hitbox patch.

Just put an asterisk next to it.  That way, everyone's happy without needing to get into a (highly subjective) debate.
edit: that's assuming he did use the patch, but there isn't any proof of that in this thread.  So, a disclaimer is currently unwarranted (again, evading the aforementioned debate).  He said he used the patch, or so I'm told.

day-later edit: it's the real deal, period, as far as we know, as was straightened out in the following posts.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:44:54 AM by K.B. »
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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2013, 12:19:09 AM »
Thank you for asking him, Cactu. Also, I think this whole discussion about if he used hitbox patch or not is stupid, really. First, most of these asian veterans play with everything on default. Second, he's been able to LNMNB fullcap on IN. Third, like IHNN said before, EoSD isn't that absurdly hard to perfect compared to the other games, but it's mostly about less people trying it (upon watching Miduki's 1MNB run, he actually died on Thousand Needle Mountain, which should be something trivial to them, but he got too nervous). Fourth, these veterans have a better idea of where the hitbox is than any of us (eg. Oosaka doesn't play with it, yet confidently made it through a wall from stage 6 Sakuya's nonspell while having spare bombs). Fifth, by that logic, every other player could have edited their games makes reducing the bullets' sprites to their hitboxes, or even used some sort of savestater as it'd be masked by the skill the already have (unlike the Goldenfox one).  Still, I'll watch it in a while and pay some attention to his dodges.

EDIT: oh, so he admitted. Okay, that's better than taking any assumption. I'm going  to add a note about it. But could you show where he said so?

EDIT2: okay, I just watched stage 6 and stage 4 up to books with the hitbox patch, and have to admit this is kind of an unnatural replay. He does seem to "know too well" where his hitbox is (mostly by making it through a wall on Vampire Illusion), and the way he moves kinda weird, similarly to Aqura, who seems to play on a Saturn controller instead. But it's unlikely he used any other sort of tool assistance.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 01:15:31 AM by Wriggle »

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2013, 01:27:31 AM »
Clio has not said he used any hitbox patch. Cactu has asked him on twitter, but has not gotten a response. Why would anybody assume that he did? Most Japanese players probably don't even know it exists.

He does seem to "know too well" where his hitbox is

What does this even mean? If you've played hundreds of hours of EoSD, you'd know where your hitbox is, patch or not.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2013, 01:33:00 AM »
What does this even mean? If you've played hundreds of hours of EoSD, you'd know where your hitbox is, patch or not.

I know, I even said that in my previous post. I'm just mentioning it just in case he did use the hitbox patch, which I haven't seen a proof of yet.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2013, 01:46:07 AM »
You're saying "it looks like he used the hitbox patch" just in case he used the hitbox patch?

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2013, 01:57:29 AM »
You're saying "it looks like he used the hitbox patch" just in case he used the hitbox patch?

Not exactly. I probably put in the wrong words as my English is bad. What I meant is, his high knowledge of where the hitbox is (especially when he made it through the Vampire Wall) kind of supports a possibility of him using the hitbox patch, but still obviously isn't a reason to assume it. I've been against assuming without a proof that he used the hitbox patch since the beginning, and still haven't assumed it, as I haven't seen a proof yet.

Karisa

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2013, 02:33:27 AM »
Wait, so does this mean that all the Royalflare scores of EoSD/etc were done with the input lag from no vsync patch?

Zil

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2013, 02:36:27 AM »
I'm not so sure that really counts as a modification, since as far as I'm aware it doesn't replace any files.

In any event you can disable vsync yourself without even using that, so I doubt the world records were done with input lag.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2013, 02:37:26 AM »
Wait, so does this mean that all the Royalflare scores of EoSD/etc were done with the input lag from no vsync patch?

Hell no, as in for sure the top scores weren't done with input lag. Whether that's because the player used the patch to fix the bug or if it worked on their system properly to begin with shouldn't matter.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2013, 02:45:36 AM »
I heard playing in Window mode or using a Gamepad fix it, but I haven't tried them myself. Btw, when was vpatch made?

Karisa

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2013, 02:52:49 AM »
I'm not so sure that really counts as a modification, since as far as I'm aware it doesn't replace any files.

In any event you can disable vsync yourself without even using that, so I doubt the world records were done with input lag.
It does fix the score counter glitches in PCB and UFO. I'd say that's a modification on a similar level as the English patch, in that it's purely graphical but may make scoring a bit easier (the English patch for players who don't read Japanese numbers intuitively, that is).  It also has the potential for larger effects on the gameplay, evident by the optional fix to the MoF MarisaB glitch, though of course that would desync replays.

Do you mind explaining what you mean by disabling vsync yourself?

Sungho

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Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2013, 04:42:46 AM »
th07, th08, and th09 has an option to turn off vertical synchronization in the custom.exe
In my case, th11 and higher already doesn't do vertical synchronizing, evidenced by a horizontal distortion line.
Not sure about th06 or th10, though.
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Seppo Hovi

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2013, 09:34:03 AM »
Seems like I was wrong and he didn't use the hitbox patch after all.

I was wrong, my apologies.

-

Royalflare seems to accept vsynch, so I have no idea why wouldn't you allow it.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2013, 02:05:57 PM »
Yeah, he used a Sega Saturn controller as expected, just like Aqura/HECATE does.  I added the controller reference, just in case someone else finds his movements too strange for a keyboard.

Re: Touhou Perfect Lunatic clears
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2013, 11:15:27 PM »
Sorry for giving misleading information.  I was lied to, and I did not realize nor suspect that what I was told was a fabrication.  This sequence of events has been outrageous, and I am livid.

That aside, thanks a lot for finding the replay, cactu.  I enjoyed watching it.  And thanks to everyone else for clearing things up.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through