Author Topic: Shooter games  (Read 172869 times)

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Shooter games
« on: September 07, 2009, 11:55:46 PM »
Hey guys, I've been seeing alot of shooter game fans say stuff like "of course _shooting game_ is better than _doujinshootergame, possibly Touhou_, it is developed by a company with alot more money and resources.

But I don't really know why people feel this way. I really haven't noticed myself appreciating a high budget shooter game more than say Touhou really. I can clearly see that the character graphics and animation aren't up to snuff with Touhou sure. I also see that enemies or targets don't flash and make a noise when hit by your bullets like they do in a game like Raiden or whatever (sounds trivial but it is rather satisfying I admit). But that's IT. I dont' see what's so much better about them otherwise. Besides, Touhou for example, includes better looking bullet patterns normally imo. So even the graphical department is pretty equal...sorta.

Just hoping you guys can shed some light on this. I'm not asking for a direct comparison to Touhou neccesarily, but more like doujin shooters versus non doujin.

shinyjam

  • Permabanned by TheStupidOne
  • I am a complete asshat!
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2009, 12:08:58 AM »
Here the answer:
High budget =/ better game
Bigger company =/ better game

Maybe they will have better graphic and higher quality sound, but game design and gameplay depend on the ability of the developer who spends time developing it.

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 12:43:42 AM »
I really really like CAVE games.

IMO they make the best shooters.

Touhou is awesome though for being a one manned team game.
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 12:48:47 AM »
I haven't tried any cave games yet other than Mushi. But I'm enjoying it so far. I probably should try using my ps3 gamepad rather than the keyboard though since it was originally for arcade, movement is probably analogue, though I'm not sure.

Do you have any suggestions that are emulateable on pc (I can emulate mushi fine at full frames per second...though it chugs for like 5 seconds very early in stage 3 for some reason, not even when there's a big bullet swarm!).

I've seen videos of some other cave shooter called death smiles. But I'm not too interested in trying it quite frankly.. the music...it...hurt. I mean it just sounded god-awful. Like nails on a chalkboard bad...From what I heard anyway.

Slaves

  • uHHH,
  • *
  • uHHHHHHHHHH,,,
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 01:13:44 AM »
any other shmup other than Touhou seems so foreign i don't even want to touch it.

i think i'll stick to my magical girls throwing things at eachother.

Nine West

  • Shrine maidens? Evil spirits? Magicians?
  • *
  • How wonderful!
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 01:17:26 AM »
All of this is subjective, as any other discussion, really. But yes, I do feel that ZUN's works are great, even though theoretically, high budget games have the potential to be greater.

Let's just say that I'm with Slaves here. ;)

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 01:19:25 AM »
I'm with slaves as well. I'm not a fan of Airplanes/spaceships/robots/stag beetles.
I'm in it for the moe.

Kanako Yasaka

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 03:31:16 AM »
I just tried my very first CAVE game (DoDonpachi) and anyone who says it sucks is lying. *glares and Zengeku*

Menorah Jams, Pham

  • I'm allergic to sushi. Everytime I eat more than 80 sushis, I barf
  • donde esta la biblioteca
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 02:49:35 PM »
Man, I grew up on shmups.  The original Gradius was my favorite game amongst the early NES releases.  Gradius III, R-Type III... hell, every year I play U.N. Squadron again on an emulator.  On the PC there was Tyrian, I think one game called Raptor... Choplifter, etc.  Gradius V... I loved playing Raiden and 1943 in the arcades.  Good freaking times. 

Go play Rez, you'll feel better.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2009, 03:01:38 PM »
I'm a really big fan of shmups in general, but Touhou shmups just happen to be my favorites.

I'm also really into CAVE shmups (favorites being Mushihimesama and ESPGaluda) and Psikyo shmups (Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1999 are love), but you'd be hard-pressed to get me to say no to any shooting game (with the exception of Battle Garegga. I hate that game. *is shot by the guys at Shmups forum*).

I don't understand why shmup elitists have to shit on Touhou all the time, though. With the possible exception of ZUN's character art, Touhou shmups are fucking beautiful (and even then, I find ZUN's art to be charming even if it isn't excellent) Playing them is like eating candy. Coated in sugar. With my eyes. Not only that, but the music is top-notch as well, and the only composer that I've heard in a shmup that can even compare with Touhou music is Manabu Namiki's Mushihimesama/Mushi Futari soundtracks.

I think it's pretty stupid to be closed-minded either way.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2009, 03:27:03 PM »
- some games have interesting scoring systems (involving chaining enemies, chaining medals, staying alive with maximum bomb capacity, collecting hidden point items, clearing the stage without "options" -- pods. Yes, Varth, I'm looking at you >_< --, combining medals, damaging enemies with bombs instead of normal shots at the right places.. enabling hidden boss battles from where you can obtain more points, destroying enemies which in turn either destroy the bullets around them, or cancel the bullets that they've fired for massive damage points, using Reflect Barriers to turn reflected enemy bullets into point items as they hit enemies) that make you want more
- some games have somehow more interesting stages than Touhou do (some of Varth's stages demand my awareness and also have a fitting bgm, for example, in stage 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJnAUgZRhM ; I'd say that you must play this stage and others such as 6, 9 and 10 to feel what I'm trying to express. For those who don't know or have played Varth, the enemies can come from the sides, or from behind, and may will point-blank you most of the times if possible; it also encourages active bombing, since bombs refill themselves after a time), you have to move yourself more, either to damage medium/large enemies that appear on the screen, or to hit "popcorn enemies", or to avoid incoming bullets while you're busy with something else (collecting falling/grounded medals, buying yourself time to recharge your Reflect Barrier, or refill your bomb meter -- like in Varth ^^ --, etc.)
- as you progress in most games, the stages become more fun to play, and you want to play them again and again, and see how far can you get in the game (even if you've seen the later stages on youtube or reached them yourself).
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2009, 04:07:02 PM »
I think this may be a controversial topic...

At first, I didn't care for shmups because the airplane/spacecraft deal never interested me. What is infuriating is that Cotton and even Cave games were never popular in the Arcades of my country (I doubt they even showed here); had I known their games, I'd probably be a shmup nerd by now. :V

The thing with commercial games is that the level design, visuals and even depth take a backsit (even ZUN gave level design a rest in Subterranean Animism). Most of the time the only thing they have over doujin games is graphics, and it's also why they aren't interesting: do I really need awesome graphics to see a grey space colony? I guess not. Oh yes, I forgot; commercial games to tend to feature more difficulty levels, but most people aren't able to clear Lunatic, so...

Sure, I didn't play exceptions, like the shadowbringer is suggesting Varth, but from everything I saw on most shmups, I don't put any faith in commercial games.

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2009, 04:11:06 PM »
Futari's soundtrack is definitely in my top 5 favourite game soundtracks of all times.

all of the themes are amazing.. from menu music, all music stages to final boss and completion.

actually, Stage 5 theme "At the Maddening Gate" is definitely my favourite game music ever.

Still my favourite replay ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcrfbZyOcI

The guy is insane btw. he only used one bomb at the very very end of the stage
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 04:21:15 PM by lmagus »
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2009, 11:26:30 PM »
- some games have interesting scoring systems (involving chaining enemies, chaining medals, staying alive with maximum bomb capacity, collecting hidden point items, clearing the stage without "options" -- pods. Yes, Varth, I'm looking at you >_< --, combining medals, damaging enemies with bombs instead of normal shots at the right places.. enabling hidden boss battles from where you can obtain more points, destroying enemies which in turn either destroy the bullets around them, or cancel the bullets that they've fired for massive damage points, using Reflect Barriers to turn reflected enemy bullets into point items as they hit enemies) that make you want more
- some games have somehow more interesting stages than Touhou do (some of Varth's stages demand my awareness and also have a fitting bgm, for example, in stage 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJnAUgZRhM ; I'd say that you must play this stage and others such as 6, 9 and 10 to feel what I'm trying to express. For those who don't know or have played Varth, the enemies can come from the sides, or from behind, and may will point-blank you most of the times if possible; it also encourages active bombing, since bombs refill themselves after a time), you have to move yourself more, either to damage medium/large enemies that appear on the screen, or to hit "popcorn enemies", or to avoid incoming bullets while you're busy with something else (collecting falling/grounded medals, buying yourself time to recharge your Reflect Barrier, or refill your bomb meter -- like in Varth ^^ --, etc.)
- as you progress in most games, the stages become more fun to play, and you want to play them again and again, and see how far can you get in the game (even if you've seen the later stages on youtube or reached them yourself).
Varth is one reason why I'm happy I'm not in STGT this year. I suck so much at it.

Also, I just noticed you quoted me in your sig. *flattered*

Futari's soundtrack is definitely in my top 5 favourite game soundtracks of all times.

all of the themes are amazing.. from menu music, all music stages to final boss and completion.

actually, Stage 5 theme "At the Maddening Gate" is definitely my favourite game music ever.

Still my favourite replay ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcrfbZyOcI

The guy is insane btw. he only used one bomb at the very very end of the stage

What do you think the odds are of Mushi Futari for the 360 being region-free are? I mean, Asada did say they were considering it...

Seriously, I would cry sweet tears of joy if that happens, and I'd preorder it as soon as I could.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2009, 11:38:22 PM »
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2009, 11:40:27 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8

Oh boy. Whats with shumps and purple bullets?

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2009, 11:54:22 PM »
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.

That's the thing. I'm seriously contemplating getting myself an arcade cab one of these days, and Mushi Futari is the PCB I want the most. Unfortunately, that runs anywhere from $600-$1000+. If I could just import it for my 360, it would save me a ton of money. Frankly, I don't care if Ketsui/DOJ Black Label/Daifukkatsu/DeathSmiles become available to me if I can play Mushi Futari, because I want to play that so very badly.

I certainly don't want to import a 360 as well just to play Mushi Futari though, because every 360 I've had so far (yes, that is multiple) have been very unreliable. I don't want an imported one fucking up on me and then I'd have to send it overseas and stuff.

If Mushi Futari is made region-free, I'll still go for a cab eventually, but I'll focus on getting ESPGaluda II and some Psikyo shmups instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8

Oh boy. Whats with shumps and purple bullets?

Purple bullets are pretty, and that scoring system actually looks like fun.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:57:23 PM by Matsuri »

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2009, 11:57:13 PM »
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2009, 11:58:17 PM »
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.

I think your priorities are slightly misplaced if whatever you play as is what's keeping you from enjoying a game. The same goes to the shmup elitists who refuse to play Touhou because you control girls in frilly dresses.  :-\

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2009, 12:05:57 AM »
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.

I think your priorities are slightly misplaced if whatever you play as is what's keeping you from enjoying a game. The same goes to the shmup elitists who refuse to play Touhou because you control girls in frilly dresses.  :-\

Nah, thats not the only reason. I just didn't enjoy it. I got a good amount into the game and decided I wasn't having fun with it, and quit.

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2009, 12:08:27 AM »
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.

That's the thing. I'm seriously contemplating getting myself an arcade cab one of these days, and Mushi Futari is the PCB I want the most. Unfortunately, that runs anywhere from $600-$1000+. If I could just import it for my 360, it would save me a ton of money. Frankly, I don't care if Ketsui/DOJ Black Label/Daifukkatsu/DeathSmiles become available to me if I can play Mushi Futari, because I want to play that so very badly.

I certainly don't want to import a 360 as well just to play Mushi Futari though, because every 360 I've had so far (yes, that is multiple) have been very unreliable. I don't want an imported one fucking up on me and then I'd have to send it overseas and stuff.

If Mushi Futari is made region-free, I'll still go for a cab eventually, but I'll focus on getting ESPGaluda II and some Psikyo shmups instead.

That makes sense. I don't have a 360 at all, so it's easier for me to not care about region-locking. Though sometimes I thinking of fucking the 360 idea altogether and just getting a supergun. The games would be a hell of a lot more expensive and I wouldn't be able to get as many, but maybe that would make me appreciate the ones I do get more.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2009, 12:27:35 AM »
I guess getting a supergun would be a less-expensive option, but damn it, if I'm gonna go out of my way to play PCBs, I'm gonna go all-out and get a full cab.  ;)

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2009, 12:29:59 AM »
wtf is the point of region locking anyway. Seriously.

edit: I thought I asked this earlier too but apparently not. Anybody know if emulating a ps2 game like Mushi on a ps3 will bypass the region lock?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 12:31:39 AM by Ghaleon »

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2009, 12:36:22 AM »
wtf is the point of region locking anyway. Seriously.

edit: I thought I asked this earlier too but apparently not. Anybody know if emulating a ps2 game like Mushi on a ps3 will bypass the region lock?

I asked the same question on Shmups forum, and here are the replies I got. (I'm the one with the Nue avatar)

As for the PS2-PS3 thing, I seriously doubt it, but why not try? :p

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2009, 12:51:05 AM »
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

As for the link thanks...Still not sure why. Alot of people gave conflicting answers, and none of them really sounded like they were sure about it or really knew for fact. I think we can just blame Moogy.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 12:55:20 AM by Ghaleon »

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2009, 01:06:03 AM »
Mushihimesama was the main reason I went out of my way to get a Japanese PS2. Then I found out that the port for Mushi is pretty bad in comparison to the PCB (bullet lag issues, the bullets slow down when they shouldn't and don't slow down when they should at times). Then I got ESPGaluda and DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, which are good ports (even if DOJ REALLY pisses me off).

Dai-Ou-Jou DEATH LABEL is the best part of that game.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2009, 01:16:45 AM »
Buying a PCB and the equipment to use it is nowhere near the cost of buying a ps2 game and hoping it runs on your pre-existing ps3 though >=P. Even my ps3 itself was cheap. 200bucks over a year ago. It's the 80GB version too, not shabby. (was so cheap cuz some guy I know won it at a tennis tournament and he didn't play games.. so..yeah.)

lmagus

  • I HATE VoWG
    • My Youtube
Re: Shooter games
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2009, 01:18:01 AM »
I never enjoyed games like Strikers and Rayden, actually because I always though ships were boring, and that's why Mushi and Touhou really caught me.

But i can't stop playing Ketsui Death Label on my DS :O
Current Goal: PCB Lunatic 1cc
Watch me on Youtube

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2009, 01:18:58 AM »
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.

It's really easy and pretty cheap to circumvent region protection on a PS2, if you have one, so there's there's that option as well. I went with the Swap Magic route myself, since it's an inexpensive and pretty non-intrusive solution. Plays Mushi just fine, though the port is poor. :\

ESP Galuda and Dai Ou Jou win, though.

Matsuri

Re: Shooter games
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2009, 01:33:41 AM »
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.

It's really easy and pretty cheap to circumvent region protection on a PS2, if you have one, so there's there's that option as well. I went with the Swap Magic route myself, since it's an inexpensive and pretty non-intrusive solution. Plays Mushi just fine, though the port is poor. :\

ESP Galuda and Dai Ou Jou win, though.

Yeah, even though the port of Mushi is pretty bad, the game itself is fantastic, and definitely one of, if not absolutely, my favorite non-Touhou shmup.

ESPGaluda is a close tie though. Good port, great game, and Arrange mode is win beyond win.