League of Legends Thread XIII: http://www.twitch.tv/saltyteemo

[triangles]

So tell me, people who know what they are doing in this game, why I am starting to see quite a few Shen supports?  Is this a real thing, or someone in blind pick mad they were the last loaded in and got stuck supporting?  They're actually buying wards too most of the time, which was surprising.

On the other hand, I learned just how beautiful throwing the Fiddlefear or the Fiddlecrow to stop the Stand Unite channeling over and over again can be.
CAW CAW CAW

[Cadmas]

Well its not the Koreans. OGN is going on right now.

So far top picks and bans have been renekton, lucian, olaf, elise, annie, syndra, shyvana, and nidalee.

Not a single Shen ban or pick. Must be a NA thing.

[Suikama]

watch annie get nerfed in s4 as the changes are going to make her even stronger at supporting

and morello hates strong supports

[Raikaria]

Well its not the Koreans. OGN is going on right now.

So far top picks and bans have been renekton, lucian, olaf, elise, annie, syndra, shyvana, and nidalee.

Not a single Shen ban or pick. Must be a NA thing.

Shen was something like 95% pick/ban at worlds and that had a lot of Koreans.

Including the finals.

Something probobly changed with the playstyle that makes Shen's splitpush less important; probobly the focus on earlygame became even stronger.

[Cadmas]

Well my bother just saw a shen support in gold there. top and mid both took teleport.

It's shit if you ask us cause he just ripped it apart with udyr, hes going with the korean jungle olaf now.

Also side pushing top lane is still stupid.

[Suikama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C8e7kTj-7I Preseason time~

no more get inhibitor win game

Face of the Mountain
Now grants 375 Health (down from 400)
Now also grants 10% Cooldown Reduction

Interesting. I said before the only thing the Targon/Face of the Mountain path lacked was CDR and then BAM HP was traded for CDR.

It's possible that after building GP10 and Sightstones supports can now get whatever the hell they want. I was thinking before to just grab the supporty items like Mikeals since they're cheap but since gold is significantly increased Supports might be able to get real items

On the other hand this might make AP carry supports legit to the point where all other supports are obsolete :/

annie pls

[Cadmas]

Rule of thumb, if anyone in plat or diamond tells you something isn't OP they are wrong.

If riot balanced around high level play Jax would still be dodging towers and TF would still have a global teleport on a short CD that rooted enemies with a gold card that could stun whole teams.

[Suikama]

oh boy support annie

10/0/20 for 10%CDR and 19AP with spellthief's edge at level 1

get frostfang, blue sightstone and boots early game (1760 gold) and then dont upgrade them because it's 1100 gold for just 30 AP, 3MP5, and the active or 600 gold for 180HP and an extra ward charge

instead forget support items BUILD REAL AP


actually i'm not sure if spellthief's edge is worth it at all because the gold it gives sucks unless you're crazy good at poking and the stats it gives are also pretty poor. I mean I guess it's supposed to be like a mini double doran's ring that gives no HP and less AP for gold but the gold it gives isn't that much compared to the others unless you start stealing farm :V. Problem with the pickpocket passive is either you play passively and poke all day for gold which kinda ruins the point of picking an AP support and opens you up to being jumped on, or you play aggressive and either kill them and force them out of lane, which then nullifies your own passive and you might as well have ancient coin.

also ancient coin scales well throughout the game since there will always be minions and even when everyone is clustered mid trying to engage you still get gold from all the minions that die. spellthief's edge will fall behind in gold if there is ever a lull in fighting activity.
And they fixed ancient coin so it gives only 2 gold but nomad's medallion still gives 5 lol

[Ryuu]

So tell me, people who know what they are doing in this game, why I am starting to see quite a few Shen supports?  Is this a real thing, or someone in blind pick mad they were the last loaded in and got stuck supporting?  They're actually buying wards too most of the time, which was surprising.

On the other hand, I learned just how beautiful throwing the Fiddlefear or the Fiddlecrow to stop the Stand Unite channeling over and over again can be.
CAW CAW CAW

shen support is one of those okay but wonky things that people are doing now because it's preseason and no one gives a fuck anymore

Shen was something like 95% pick/ban at worlds and that had a lot of Koreans.

Including the finals.

Something probobly changed with the playstyle that makes Shen's splitpush less important; probobly the focus on earlygame became even stronger.

um shen was a high pick/ban at worlds because of his top lane, not his support.

nothing has changed yet. people are just fucking around a lot. dyrus was just playing ad nami on his stream or some shit and then a bunch of people copied it for a day

On the other hand this might make AP carry supports legit to the point where all other supports are obsolete :/

annie pls

i don't think this will be an issue(*when everything settles, anyway)

ideally these changes should create a space for both support supports and the more fringe ap supports like fiddle and annie(though tbh annie and fiddle probably both need nerfed(fiddle could actually just use a gameplay passover in general). the normal supports will bring a lot more utility overall with their shiny new scaling, but annie and fiddle can fuck bitches up. i can definitely see the support role requiring a little more thought in regards to team synergy than before--a team with a ton of inherent utility might do better with an annie than a sona, but a team with a lot of assassins would probably enjoy leona or lulu over fiddlesticks

Rule of thumb, if anyone in plat or diamond tells you something isn't OP they are wrong.

If riot balanced around high level play Jax would still be dodging towers and TF would still have a global teleport on a short CD that rooted enemies with a gold card that could stun whole teams.

soraka isn't op

actually i'm not sure if spellthief's edge is worth it at all because the gold it gives sucks unless you're crazy good at poking and the stats it gives are also pretty poor. I mean I guess it's supposed to be like a mini double doran's ring that gives no HP and less AP for gold but the gold it gives isn't that much compared to the others unless you start stealing farm :V. Problem with the pickpocket passive is either you play passively and poke all day for gold which kinda ruins the point of picking an AP support and opens you up to being jumped on, or you play aggressive and either kill them and force them out of lane, which then nullifies your own passive and you might as well have ancient coin.

i think they're going to have to add the "with auto or spell" part to the base item instead of just the upgrade. hitting with spells every 10s isn't so painful for a lot of champions, but autoing can be. it might just need some old fashioned gp10 on it, though, because mid/late game you aren't going to be accumulating much cash at all

[Suikama]

Well it's actually the item with the most old fashion GP10: 4GP10 vs philo 2GP10 and emblem 0GP10

But since the philo passive is really well... passive, it's pretty much another GP10 and since 6-7 minions spawn every 30 seconds it amounts to 4GP10 earlygame and 8GP10 (10GP10 right now cause it's bugged) later

Also another painful thing about kages is the no CS requirement. Although its obviously necessary so AP mids wont get it, sometimes when you poke with a spell like Sona Q then AA, if the Q just happens to kill a minion then you no longer get gold. Also you do still get gold from the bandit passive though and that one works every 5 seconds and has no anti-cs requirement, so I feel like as far as poke gold goes it's good enough and then you might as well get philo or emblem (cant remember all the new names pls) for real gold

Also targon/emblem/relic shield benefits your ad the most as it helps them cs AND heals them which is why i think it will be the standard

meanwhile the garen passive mastery STILL doesnt work

rito pls, if this goes live then everyone might as well run 30-0-0 or 0-0-30 cause the defense tree is worthless

lol the philo tooltip says AND calculates that you get 2 gold per minions but you actually get 3 rito pls


okay so uh im not sure if this is yet another bug or intended but frostfang counts spells and autoattacks as separate, as in if you attack + Q with sona you get 16 GOLD

so with soraka a 5 man Q = 40 gold rofl

[Mr. Sacchi]

I'm just gonna link this here because as much of an A-Hole that stonewall is, he knows his jungle well and we've been giving too much emphasis on the support changes in this thread.

[Suikama]

and we've been giving too much emphasis on the support changes in this thread.

pshh, what on earth are you talking about :derp:

[Ryuu]

I'm just gonna link this here because as much of an A-Hole that stonewall is, he knows his jungle well and we've been giving too much emphasis on the support changes in this thread.

i'm only a few minutes into this so far but it's already full of a ton of bullshit so i'm gonna rewind and point out the shit i see

he's only partially correct by laners dictating jungle flow. powerful jungle players have the ability to dictate jungle flow as well on a game to game basis. there have been junglers who were overpowered as shit and dictated the entire game.

>"utility junglers who sit on their thumbs" this line really highlights his "i hate having to do anything but farm" attitude that permeates through this video

he keeps making dumb mistakes fighting camps and leaving monsters alive to hit him more for free before killing them and it's bothering the shit out of me

he does a full clear and the video says "OH LOOK THEY HAVE ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF GOLD" when he doesn't have any of the items specifically made to increase gold gain yet. he's trying really hard to bait people into thinking that he's right here

he also starts complaining that gank junglers create pressure and force farmers to leave the jungle(this is after him saying that the reason farm jungles suck are because of laners btw), but that's exactly what's supposed to happen. gankers have always 100% beat farmers. he's essentially complaining that he can't afk pve farm for 20m. he seems really mad that riot expects people to actually *gasp* play the game. only afk farming jungle SHOULD be weak, even for farming junglers, because it's really terrible for game health otherwise.

"when you have a wriggle's lantern, they have a bf sword!!!" lmao

>"mindlessly farming junglers" >"shyvana" LMAO WHAT

there's a lot of catastrophizing in this. he makes up a bunch of worst case scenarios and cries and cries about them without talking about any positive scenarios for comparison.

he's right about the increased game speed and farming junglers being counterintuitive(from his point of view), but imo a "farming" jungle like yi should still gank lanes. a farming jungler's lack of inherent cc or super high burst damage means that they have to pick ganks much more carefully, but the reward for pulling off that gank correctly would be rather great. he sounds very mad that he can't afk for 10m like in season 1

he tries to compare wriggles and ancient golem, but he fails to provide any real stats or reasoning behind anything. it's basically just "hey, i'm right, believe me"

he complains about yi having early sustain issues when yi has meditate. he's not leveling meditate to attempt to increase clear speed, but he'd probably have better results putting one early point in it, using it once, and then clearing. you'd want it in a real game anyway so you can stay topped off in case of invades. he's also forgetting that many champions have yet to be rebalanced for the new jungle. his sustain problems could be totally fixed by riot going "oh yi, here's 2 more base armor" for example

"THE NEW JUNGLE IS SO BAD, WATCH ME DIE IN THIS CLIP" *takes  two unnecessary autos from small golem and spends time moving instead of autoing letting big golem hit him for free 3 times*

exp might be an issue but that is easily fixed


overall i'm not gonna say he's entirely right or wrong. i will, however, say that he's being an idiot and this video is a shitty way to make an argument or statement about anything. it is literally forum bitching in video form and barely constructive in any sense

[Raikaria]

Also he wasn't exactly clearing efficiently. He would go past the already re-spawned Wolves to go to the Wright. Last I checked wouldn't clearing Wolves -> Wright be faster; especially as you can move as you fight the wolves to get closer to the Wright in the first place? All that seems to be doing is delaying his levels ect by 10 seconds for no reason.

I pay a lot of attention to RoG; but Stonewall infuriates me. A lot of the time he has clearly no idea what he is talking about.

For example; from his most recent list:
This one

Amumu - Damage - Mixed
How is he not classed as 'Sustained' while Cassio; Elise; Eve and even FIDDLESTICKS are ._. Amumu's *burst* isn't exactly burst.

Cho'Gath - Damage - Burst
Let's forget Vorpal Spikes exist; eh?

Zyra - Damage - Burst
Plants? The fact her Q has such a short C/D?

Sion [In a Magic Damage list] - Damage - Mixed
Where is AP Sion's sustained damage coming from then?

Also some gems like:

Apparently Trundle's C.C is Above Average! This is the same rating given to MAOKAI. Let's bear in mind Trundle has NO HARD C.C AT ALL. Made even more hilarious in the 'support jungler' list; where this rating is shared with characters like Lulu and Karma. Which is outright hilarious.

Apparently Aatrox's C.C is 'Superb'. Again; Maokai is listed as 'Above Average'. So is Malphite. And Galio. Last I checked an easily dodgeable tiny AoE knockup and a skillshot slow isn't 'superb' C.C; especially compared to the likes of Maokai.

Again on Aatrox's C.C; apparently he's still 'Superb' compared to characters like Wukong. In fact; apparently Volibear and Udyr's C.C is better than Wukong's Cyclone! Just what.

This is just a few things that stood out to me; but you can clearly see either a complete lack of knowledge or outright favoritism [Example: Aatrox being listed as 'Superb' C.C. Stonewall really likes Aatrox.]

Also in his final list; while including Ezreal; he completely ignores Twitch.

Sometimes he knows what he's talking about. I agree with him on Jungle Jinx; for example. But man does he come out with nonsense sometimes.

Once I pointed out some of the blatant errors in his past lists to him [I believe it was about Trundle's C.C] and his reply was roughly 'You're an asshole'. So he's not exactly open to criticism or very mature either.

[Cadmas]

That always happens to me when I state things like X champ is going to be nerfed.

Then people say stupid shit like, counter pick him, gank him, X champ falls off late game, X champ has no teamfight, Just CC them.

Riot doesn't nerf weak champs that nobody is playing so why is it crazy to suggest nerfs to a champ that clearly everybody is abusing for any reason.

Even really strong champs have their weaknesses, but when their strengths outweigh those weaknesses and the matches become pick X/Y champ or lose then things are problem.

~

As for stonewall. It's really hard to take what he says with any confidence. He is wrong often and most of what he is trying to say is that what Riot are doing and what they are saying aren't matching up.

But at this point its speculation and kinda pointless unless tested in a real game environment.

Which is mostly why I only watch the Koreans for 'the next OP.'

And then people say stupid shit like "the Korean Meta favors." Bullshit. The Korean Meta, NA meta, Euro meta. Same shit. All of them have the same champ balance patches.

So what works in High level Korean tournament play will work in NA/EURO Solo Queue when its based around a single set of really strong champs reigning over all the other champs.

[Raikaria]

Well every server has different strengths; so the metas are not the same.

I point to Lissandra. She was pretty much ignored everywhere except EU. Then EU showed what she could do. Lucian is big in the way the Koreans play right now; but I don't think he'd do very well in the EU scene because the midlaners are so strong and would explode him.

[Cadmas]

I think its more of EU trying to be what korea is and innovate. The whole reason we play the way we do now was b/c of EU in season 1,

but EU might like to do a 50 minute farm fest and the Koreans might want to do a 3 minute 4 man gank on top and at that time its when we see those differences in styles meet,
but one is going to trump the other based on the way the game works.

Then NA just copies w/e wins tournaments all the way from challenger to bronze.

If Lissandra would have won the whole world champ or was being used at OGN she would be everywhere in NA.

She had a moment of whoo that was cool lets all play Lissandra top lane with teleport, but once fnatic lost it went away.

If you list any non-meta champ as strong over here. People just say you're crazy and then list off the 100 reason why X champ is shit. Much of it is seeing to believing.

[Raikaria]

Except like comps; different playstyles have strengths and weaknesses [If the game is paced right. Atm is isn't and global objectives snowball too much]. It's like the poke comp loses to hard engage and burst; while the hard engage+Burst comp loses to 'League of Bruisers' who just outlast you; while 'League of Bruisers' loses to poke because they can't catch them.

[Cadmas]

Yes, but when one of those styles has a champ or few that can beat those weaknesses b/c of a ridiculous laning phase.

Then everything gravities towards that and that style becomes dominate until balance changes happen to once again shift those polarities.

The trick is finding those champs to break the game with.

[Raikaria]

Yes, but when one of those styles has a champ or few that can beat those weaknesses b/c of a ridiculous laning phase.

Then everything gravities towards that and that style becomes dominate until balance changes happen to once again shift those polarities.

The trick is finding those champs to break the game with.

And Atm that champion seems to be Nidalee.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Somehow, I thought the video was iffy 3 minutes in.

I've known stonewall is a dick for a while, and like, how he's rarely actually 100% right, I wanted to get some reactions (Especially from ryuu and Raikaria) posting this here, got what I wanted :V

Overall I never read his lists and frankly I don't care for tier lists, they are 100% sure to be biased (Like what Raikaria pointed out, for example. Btw, yes, Stonewall loves Aatrox to death), this video, however, is a good way to summarize jungle changes and point out theoretical weaknesses in the new wriggle's, as Raikaria has already pointed out when I said that, however, these weaknesses aren't inherently all that bad, I just don't think 40% gold is enough to make up for the loss of combat stats (Armor is purely defensive and hardly worth it if you're against an AP jungler, for example, and isn't Attack Speed only supposed to be actually *good* late game?) at the same time, wriggle's is far from being useless, hell, it gives you a free ward in a world where everybody's gotta help with vision. That's gotta count for something.

[Raikaria]

Except AP junglers are not the most common sheep in the pen. Especially those of the invading variety. Nunu is an AP Invader and is far more likely to run away if you encounter him than fight you... and Mundo mainly does Magic Damage... uh that's about it. I guess Udyr does a fair bit of magic damage and Shyvana is more 50/50. And most invaders are more likly to just go Wriggles and farm their own jungles in the first place.

Trust me; I'm looking forward to the changes [I'm pretty sure the patch is gonna be tomorrow night or even tonight. Nothing on the PBE has changed for a few days now; there's the Preseason site; ect]. I'm gonna be trying things out for MYSELF and seeing what works and what does not; especially for the way I play the jungle.

Not listening to the opinions of other people. I'll decide for myself in the end. I have a habit of being right about these things. I remember Hecarim catching on MONTHS after I was insisting he was strong. And Hydra is so common now months after I said it was good.

[Garlyle]

well this can't possibly be good

[Raikaria]

> You are going inactive in 5 days

So EUW's been borked for almost a month now? Sure enough the random things that seem like lag like creeps hanging around ect still happens despite it reading 40~50 ping.

Also I ended up in something I consider a rough matchup; AP Maokai [Enemy] vs Lux [Me]. I didn't do badly.

Considering I was involved in over 50% of the entire team's kills; had only the 3rd most deaths [As a squishy Lux].

On the other hand out 2/9 Jax...

[Suikama]

well this can't possibly be good

wait so Yasuo is the new champ? I thought it was the brother...

[Aba Matindesu!]

They'll probably come one after the other a la Darius/Draven.

And I figured Yasuo would be the new Fiora/Yi. We'll see what happens next, though.

[Garlyle]

wait so Yasuo is the new champ? I thought it was the brother...

Yasuo is the brother.  Yone was the sister's name.

Point is, either that is a short-ass cooldown spell or it's repeatable or something because that's a lot of Q

[Mr. Sacchi]

I noticed a distinct lack of W there, and the distinct lack of any mention of a passive.

I'll take a wild guess and say that whatever his passive is it won't be anything damage related and his W is either pure utility or another passive.

[Ryuu]

I noticed a distinct lack of W there, and the distinct lack of any mention of a passive.

I'll take a wild guess and say that whatever his passive is it won't be anything damage related and his W is either pure utility or another passive.

his passive could also be something that is just assumed

akali, brand, corki, fiddlesticks, gangplank, etc etc. all have passives that increase their offensive power without specific gameplay involved

[Suikama]

watching faker play riven is like someone added a GunZ the duel character into lol

like seriously how do you move like that