東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[cuc]

>humans, servants and bosses

The multiplayer games have always been the chance to make non-humans playable. That's how Reisen, the first Stage 5 servant who isn't a human, can stand alongside the other protagonists in PoFV. The "human" criterion doesn't apply to fighting games.

There are many in-universe reasons for Reisen not being a single player game protagonists. Her selfish and unsocial nature, Eientei's position as aliens rather than naturalized citizens, Eirin's cautiousness, the cause of Touhou 9-12 not being events that can be seen in all Gensokyo (same reason Sakuya is not present)...

In my mind, however, most of these factors do not affect Myouren Temple and the Taoists. I think while Murasa is too strongly bond to her ghostly obsession, it makes perfect sense for Ichirin, Shou and Futo to play at incident solving. Their thought patterns are much closer to humans than most youkai.

What I'm saying is, I think not only will Ichirin, Shou and Futo show up in HM (that's almost a given), they even stand a better chance at becoming single player game protagonists than all other non-humans.

[Clarste]

Definitely, the fighting games have been places where non-humans can have starring roles, but I was merely trying to show why the servants are no longer more likely than the bosses in this particular case. At best, they're all equal with their bosses. However, given SoPM which characterized the leaders so much I think they're still more likely.

[Zil]

While there is a tendency to favor the underlings, the fighting games are a bit different in that they have been pretty final boss happy in the past. Kaguya was planned to be included. They just ran out of time or something. Kanako was really just too late for SWR, as cuc pointed out. I think the only final boss who has really been left out is Eiki, and to that you could probably say that she wouldn't be very likely to continue running around after the events of PoFV, just considering her character. I think it's extremely likely that both Byakuren and Miko will be included. Kanako is a little iffy perhaps, mostly because Sanae is so well established already. But really, looking at the previous fighting games, they tend to include the more important characters from each game. Leaving them out of the shooters is one thing, but to have any real presence in HM, I think they will have to be playable. An underling-fest would be too anticlimactic. As people have said, the plot is something that's been being built up for a while. I'd be amazed if Byakuren and Miko aren't in it.

The multiplayer games have always been the chance to make non-humans playable. That's how Reisen, the first Stage 5 servant who isn't a human, can stand alongside the other protagonists in PoFV. The "human" criterion doesn't apply to fighting games.

While it's true that PoFV included lots of non-humans, they actually were mostly low level bosses. Not a single final boss was present, in fact, so you could kinda go either way with it. Certainly HM will have non-humans; there aren't any new humans to choose from. I think the earlier fighting games suggest it will be the higher level bosses though. (And hopefully we'll get another Phantasmagoria soon with the likes of Kogasa, Nazrin, etc.)

Also what Clarste said. Yeah.

[game2011]

I mean, it's kind of obvious SWR pokes at PoV a lot, taking Reisen (first time playable), Aya (first appearance) and Komachi (first apearance) in the game, even though it's meant to be ''Touhou 10.5'', it doesn't present any MoF character at all, all the way until UNL where Sanae appears, and then, CIRNO. Let's be honest, Cirno in that game was pure fanservice. And that's my point; Predicting the roster is pretty much for fun rather than actually aiming to be right because god knows what random plot twist will show up, forcing a character to appear?

Actually, Aya's first appearance is in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, but it's true that PoFV is her first playable and game appearance.

[Starxsword]

SWR started its life as Touhou 9.8, and only became Touhou 10.5 later. It was never intended to have anything to do with Moriya Shrine, and for all we know, ZUN might have already written most of the story before he made MoF.

That may be true, but it seems like it is too much of a coincidence for Tenshi's ability to match both Kanako and Suwako, being able to control both the atmosphere and the ground.

What I'm saying is, I think not only will Ichirin, Shou and Futo show up in HM (that's almost a given), they even stand a better chance at becoming single player game protagonists than all other non-humans.

I believe, at most, only one of them will show up in Hopeless Masquerade. I agree that they will have better chances of appear in Touhou shooters than non-humans, but that doesn't mean too much, since only in 8 and phantasmagoria games do we get non-human protagonists.

A bit on this. I think it is possible for Byakuren or Miko to be protagonists in single player games too, since they are fairly close to humans.

While it's true that PoFV included lots of non-humans, they actually were mostly low level bosses. Not a single final boss was present, in fact, so you could kinda go either way with it. Certainly HM will have non-humans; there aren't any new humans to choose from. I think the earlier fighting games suggest it will be the higher level bosses though. (And hopefully we'll get another Phantasmagoria soon with the likes of Kogasa, Nazrin, etc.)

I think PoFV just includes a variety of characters. Yuuka is a final boss. Youmu, Sakuya, and Reisen are stage 5 bosses. Aya is a stage 4 boss. Then, there's Cirno and Merlin, among others, who are, I guess what you call early stage bosses.

[game2011]

Okay, I have to address this, because it gets on my nerves.

Why do people state that ZUN is "trolling" because he doesn't follow through to their expectations? Whether or not the atmosphere gives a hint is irrelevant. It's unfair when you hype yourself up for nothing only to get angry with ZUN when you don't get what you want.  Like your example with Mima. That was a 50/50. When it was mentioned that "a certain character was returning", it could have meant a new character who used to be active or a character we know who has been out of commission for a while. Such a phrase can be interpreted in diverse ways.

When fans speculate about something or have their own ten desires about what they want, but find that it's something else, it's not ZUN's fault; it's everyone getting their hopes up to the point where things go out of control. So can we please stop with the "ZUN IS TROLLING LOL" comments already? The meaning of the "word" has lost its flavor.

I really had to read something like this.  Thanks a lot for making me feel better!

Sign...  Whatever happened to the days when troll simply meant "ugly creature that lives underneath the bridge"...

[cuc]

I think PoFV just includes a variety of characters. Yuuka is a final boss. Youmu, Sakuya, and Reisen are stage 5 bosses. Aya is a stage 4 boss. Then, there's Cirno and Merlin, among others, who are, I guess what you call early stage bosses.

Other than Merlin, Lunasa and the two bosses, PoFV characters are divided into 3 groups.

Group 1: 5 protagonists, playable from beginning, generally encountered during Chapter 2-6 of story mode.
Group 2: 4 weak youkai, unlocked first, encountered during Chapter 1-4.
Group 3: 3 new characters, unlocked last, encountered in Chapter 6-7.

Udonge belongs in the protagonist group.

[Tengukami]

If that really happens then I swear I'll throw a can of beer at zun's head because I've had enough of his trollage already.

Okay, I have to address this, because it gets on my nerves.

Why do people state that ZUN is "trolling" because he doesn't follow through to their expectations?

Because entitlement. "Waaah ZUN didn't use his telepathic powers to magically know what I want and cater to it." It's even more hilarious when you consider how few pay for the games.

Nothing wrong with having hopes, of course, but the belief that you're not only entitled to the game you want, but that ZUN is obliged to cater to you and is intentionally trolling you if you don't get it is delusional.

[nintendonut888]

Those who believe Mima is going to return this time, out of all the times she could have, are living a Hopeless Masquerade.

[Tengukami]

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Because entitlement. "Waaah ZUN didn't use his telepathic powers to magically know what I want and cater to it." It's even more hilarious when you consider how few pay for the games.

Nothing wrong with having hopes, of course, but the belief that you're not only entitled to the game you want, but that ZUN is obliged to cater to you and is intentionally trolling you if you don't get it is delusional.

Excuse me sir, but if the hints are just SO INTENSE, then don't blame me for not being able to control my brain to the point of not even thinking about the return of a character. Back during the announcement of TD, I wasn't the only to have great expectations that Mima would return, but the majority of the fans thought the same as well. If it was just me, then it'd be a case apart, and thus, it'd be ignorable. However, the same assumption happened in large scale, so, it's far from being the fanbase's fault.

Those who believe Mima is going to return this time, out of all the times she could have, are living a Hopeless Masquerade.

True, that. I've lost my hopes already and I'm more than aware she won't ever return again. TD was her greatest chance, and she lost it. So, as for now, it's pretty hopeless thinking she may come back in the future.

[Tengukami]

Excuse me sir, but if the hints are just SO INTENSE, then don't blame me for not being able to control my brain to the point of not even thinking about the return of a character.

Strawman. I specifically said that having hopes is fine.

And I do blame your brain. It's your brain that believes you are entitled to a character's return to the point where you believe ZUN is deliberately trolling you by not giving you what you want, where your projected expectations are interpreted as "SO INTENSE hints" that the game creator is dropping, and where your expectations not being met is responded to with "I'm so tired of this shit" and talk of getting violent with the guy. Even jokingly, it's pretty WTF.

Back during the announcement of TD, I wasn't the only to have great expectations that Mima would return, but the majority of the fans thought the same as well. If it was just me, then it'd be a case apart, and thus, it'd be ignorable. However, the same assumption happened in large scale, so, it's far from being the fanbase's fault.

How does it prove it's not the fanbase's fault? If anything, "I wasn't the only one" means that there is a certain type of Mima fan who will read "hints" of her return into anything they see, and take it so deeply personally when she doesn't come back that they will actually get angry at the game creator himself and believe he's trolling them.

Hence "entitlement."

[Kilgamayan]

If anything, "I wasn't the only one" means that there is a certain type of Mima fan who will read "hints" of her return into anything they see, and take it so deeply personally when she doesn't come back that they will actually get angry at the game creator himself and believe he's trolling them.

Hence "entitlement."

hint: this "certain type" is all mima fans :smug:

[Tengukami]

hint: this "certain type" is all mima fans :smug:

This made me shout-laugh, but I think at least shadowbringer is one of the exceptions to this rule.

I'm sure there are others, but it's hard to hear them over the deafening, shrill squeel of MIMA MIMA MIMA

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Strawman. I specifically said that having hopes is fine.

And I do blame your brain. It's your brain that believes you are entitled to a character's return to the point where you believe ZUN is deliberately trolling you by not giving you what you want, where your projected expectations are interpreted as "SO INTENSE hints" that the game creator is dropping, and where your expectations not being met is responded to with "I'm so tired of this shit" and talk of getting violent with the guy. Even jokingly, it's pretty WTF.

How does it prove it's not the fanbase's fault? If anything, "I wasn't the only one" means that there is a certain type of Mima fan who will read "hints" of her return into anything they see, and take it so deeply personally when she doesn't come back that they will actually get angry at the game creator himself and believe he's trolling them.

Hence "entitlement."

.......It's funny how I come here to this thread, say something jokingly and innocently, without directing it to any user specifically, and then I get this kind of response, just wow... I must say I was not expecting that.

Are all moderators here as "user-friendly" with the others as you...? I thought this place was supposed to be a space for the touhou fans to gather and have fun, enjoy a good a conversation and all... however, if I come here and get flammed, get hit by pebbles, and get welcomed by a passive-agressive treatment, then the only thing I can guess is that I was wrong about the whole point and principle of this site, mmmm.

*quits*

[nintendonut888]

Excuse me sir, but if the hints are just SO INTENSE, then don't blame me for not being able to control my brain to the point of not even thinking about the return of a character. Back during the announcement of TD, I wasn't the only to have great expectations that Mima would return, but the majority of the fans thought the same as well. If it was just me, then it'd be a case apart, and thus, it'd be ignorable. However, the same assumption happened in large scale, so, it's far from being the fanbase's fault.

I take it you're fairly new to the community, so I'll let you in on a little secret. This round of "Mima will return" is exactly the same as every other one. And by that, I mean this has been going on for every game for years. When I first came to this community, MoF was only a few months old, and people were already complaining Mima wasn't in the game. Then SWR came and people thought she'd show up for some reason. Then people heard that SA involved evil spirits, and even thought Utsuho's silhouette resembled her. That wasn't Mima. Then she didn't show up in UFO because...well, obviously it had nothing to do with anything. Cue three games where she wasn't likely to appear, and Ten Desires rolled around. People flipped out at "divine spirits," even though if you thought about it even a little, Mima is the polar opposite of those. Every time there is talk of a resurrection, it is always someone who's been sealed away. Mima hasn't been sealed away since SoEW.

So it'll keep going on like this, with each game being her "greatest chance yet." Quite frankly, if you want to see Mima so bad, go play PC-98, where she has four appearances. Because as someone who has a reason to be around, her role is long obsolete.

.......It's funny how I come here to this thread, say something jokingly and innocently, without directing it to any user specifically, and then I get this kind of response, just wow... I must say I was not expecting that.

Are all moderators here as "user-friendly" with the others as you...? I thought this place was supposed to be a space for the touhou fans to gather and have fun, enjoy a good a conversation and all... however, if I come here and get flammed, get hit by pebbles, and get welcomed by a passive-agressive treatment, then the only thing I can guess is that I was wrong about the whole point and principle of this site, mmmm.

*quits*

Please understand that we are quite tired of the Mima fans whining every new game. It's not an attack on you personally.

[Tengukami]

*quits*

Oh come on. You came into this thread expressing rage and exasperation that ZUN isn't catering to you and your Mima love. I don't know how long you've been in the fandom, but you must've been around long enough to know what a shitstorm such a sentiment can cause. I addressed your points fairly all the same.

If you cannot handle starting what you must have known was going to be a controversial discussion, then don't start one. You'll note that no one - myself included - treated you with anything but fairness here. Accusing people who disagree with you of having "flamed, thrown pebbles and given the passive-aggressive treatment" is not really great behavior, to be honest. It's not fair to anyone who might disagree with you to react this way.

[AnonymousPondScum]

First off, Shastri's profile says she registered in 2009 and has been posting since at least 2010. I'd hardly call her "new".

Second of all, I'm not sure "entitlement" is the technically accurate term here.

Just sayin'.

Anyway, I'm done.

[Tengukami]

First off, Shastri's profile says she registered in 2009 and has been posting since at least 2010. I'd hardly call her "new".

That I noticed as well, hence why I believe she must've known what dropping something like that in a new game thread was going to do.

Second of all, I'm not sure "entitlement" is the technically accurate term here.

What would you call it if someone believes they are owed something that they have not taken any direct part in bringing about?

I am pointing these things out more for thoroughness' sake than anything else because while I can (tearfully) live without any new Mima I feel you guys *are* being just a *bit* smarmy about the issue and being awfully quick to dismiss Shastri as spoiled.

I think "smarmy" applies pretty well to throwing accusations at people who disagree with you and then stomping off in a huff, but I guess we all have our own way of looking at things.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Alright, I guess I'm skipping around my own point my point here and that is that while I don't know precisely HOW much so I don't consider ZUN above toying with his fans.

Just look at some of the stuff that was in Symposium of Post-Mysticism and how people sometimes blew up over that.

Therefore, mostly I'm questioning your claims of Shastri's claims of ZUN possibly being trolling as patently false.

[Clarste]

I take it you're fairly new to the community, so I'll let you in on a little secret. This round of "Mima will return" is exactly the same as every other one. And by that, I mean this has been going on for every game for years. When I first came to this community, MoF was only a few months old, and people were already complaining Mima wasn't in the game. Then SWR came and people thought she'd show up for some reason. Then people heard that SA involved evil spirits, and even thought Utsuho's silhouette resembled her. That wasn't Mima. Then she didn't show up in UFO because...well, obviously it had nothing to do with anything. Cue three games where she wasn't likely to appear, and Ten Desires rolled around. People flipped out at "divine spirits," even though if you thought about it even a little, Mima is the polar opposite of those. Every time there is talk of a resurrection, it is always someone who's been sealed away. Mima hasn't been sealed away since SoEW.

Not that you need another example, but obviously people were speculating that Mima would return back before MoF was released too. Although honestly I think it was somewhat more plausible back then, since we had recently gotten Yuuka in PoFV, so it seemed like she was next in line. It's been seven years since then though, with not a single PC-98 brought back in the meantime, so anyone who thinks ZUN still cares one way or another about them is deluding themselves. I personally just consider it a running joke. Honestly, I might feel a bit sad if it stopped happening completely.

[Momiji]

I don't know what you're talking about, but Mima's alive and well in Philly.   :V

Anyway, keep in mind.  EoSD was released in August 2002.  So the waves of Mima rage have had the chance to build for ten years.  It definitely gets old.

As a PC98 fan I can understand the hopes of some of the old cast returning, but don't expect Zun to do that.  I'd say just enjoy what new things he creates.

[Tengukami]

Therefore, mostly I'm questioning your claims of Shastri's claims of ZUN possibly being trolling as patently false.

Can you clarify this? Because she did say ZUN was trolling (here).

Also, what Meejee and Donut said.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Can you clarify this? Because she did say ZUN was trolling (here).

Forgive my confusing wording.

You are dismissing Shastri's claim of ZUN trolling, and implying that Shastri is being insincere in this accusation. ZUN has done *some* things to get a reaction out of the audience, and I cite Symposium of Post-Mysticism as an example (see: the page on Nitori).

I hope that was clearer.

[nintendonut888]

Aye, it's worth saying that I'm as big a PC-98 fan as they come. I'm no Mima fan, but I always harbor futile hopes that someday we'll see someone return. But I'm also realistic enough to know that there's no point - I just have to enjoy them for where they do appear. What gets me is less the fact that people hope she returns, and more that people decry what is new on the sole basis that it's not a returning character.

Also, the allegations about SoPM confuse me. Some things were more than a little inciting, but I can't in good faith accuse ZUN of toying with us. Personally I still go with my explanation that Akyu has become a bitter teenager and stepped up her anti-youkai propaganda.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Oh come on. You came into this thread expressing rage and exasperation that ZUN isn't catering to you and your Mima love. I don't know how long you've been in the fandom, but you must've been around long enough to know what a shitstorm such a sentiment can cause. I addressed your points fairly all the same.

If you cannot handle starting what you must have known was going to be a controversial discussion, then don't start one. You'll note that no one - myself included - treated you with anything but fairness here. Accusing people who disagree with you of having "flamed, thrown pebbles and given the passive-aggressive treatment" is not really great behavior, to be honest. It's not fair to anyone who might disagree with you to react this way.

Fair, fair enough. And I'm always wrong and you're always with the reason, isn't it? Mr. Self-Righteous.

Also, pfft, mima-love? As my last response to you, I just want to make it clear that I only used mima's example as a way to demonstrate that zun usually hints the return of a character but then ends up not bringing said character. TD's case was just one of the numerous examples. As for now, we are really expecting that Byakuren, Miko and cia are going to get playable, so, it's the same situation happening again.

So, please... would you stop misinterpreting me and calling be an obsessive mima fan? Please, don't group me together with them. And again, in case you have forgotten my previous words already. I only used Mima's case as an example of zun's recurring habits to hint random characters, it doesn't mean that I wanted her to return, I didn't get that upset after seeing she didn't come back in the end, because in a way or another, we still got pretty cool new characters.

Besides, I didn't even put much thought on my earliest posts, no, I wasn't trying to cause a "shitstorm" and no, I wasn't even aware it'd become such a flamming avalanche. If I know that would happen, if I was aware that the community here takes the slightest of things so offensively, then I'd stay quiet, true story.

[Clarste]

Also, the allegations about SoPM confuse me. Some things were more than a little inciting, but I can't in good faith accuse ZUN of toying with us. Personally I still go with my explanation that Akyu has become a bitter teenager and stepped up her anti-youkai propaganda.

My impression of the Nitori article is that Akyuu knows nothing whatsoever about Nitori so she just wrote some generic things about kappa.

[AnonymousPondScum]

My impression of the Nitori article is that Akyuu knows nothing whatsoever about Nitori so she just wrote some generic things about kappa.

A little from column A and a little from column B I think. In-universe that make sense, in-fandom I know that some people exploded when ZUN presented a Nitori that shy and friendly like she acted in MoF.

[Tengukami]

Forgive my confusing wording.

You are dismissing Shastri's claim of ZUN trolling, and implying that Shastri is being insincere in this accusation. ZUN has done *some* things to get a reaction out of the audience, and I cite Symposium of Post-Mysticism as an example (see: the page on Nitori).

I hope that was clearer.

It is clearer.

I didn't say it was insincere; on the contrary, I'm sure she means it.

And I respectfully disagree that ZUN is deliberately dropping hints of Mima's return. I think it's pure projection.

Fair, fair enough. And I'm always wrong and you're always with the reason, isn't it? Mr. Self-Righteous, etc.

Well this isn't a great way to have a discussion, but do bear in mind that what you expressed in this post is very different from what you're saying now, and was what I was responding to. If you meant something else, then say something else. It ain't rocket science.

[AnonymousPondScum]

And I respectfully disagree that ZUN is deliberately dropping hints of Mima's return. I think it's pure projection.

I wasn't talking just Mima. Similar complaints could apply to the theories that Shinki would show up in UFO.