Author Topic: Touhou 16 「東方天空璋(とうほうてんくうしょう) ~ Hidden Star in Four Seasons」 announced  (Read 295101 times)

The only way to increase PiV is by clearing bullets with your release. The more bullets you clear, the more your PiV increases. Using higher level releases also gives you higher PiV increases (for example, level 1 release will create tiny green items, which only increase your PiV a little bit. Level 6 creates big green items, which increases your PiV a lot).
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
The only way to increase PiV is by clearing bullets with your release. The more bullets you clear, the more your PiV increases. Using higher level releases also gives you higher PiV increases (for example, level 1 release will create tiny green items, which only increase your PiV a little bit. Level 6 creates big green items, which increases your PiV a lot).

Sweet, thanks. That explains the correlation between ending cards early with Seasons and a PIV increase. Guess it's time to shift focus on unleashing 6 when the screen is filled with garbage.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

There's actually also a scaling thing going on, where it takes more season items to go from level 5 to level 6 than it does to go from level 1 to level 2. So sometimes it's more profitable to spam lower level flashbombs than to save up for level 6. But it's really up to the individual to see what works for them.

Unrelated to that, this is some stuff I found while testing. It's not perfect by any means, but it's still interesting until we get the usual shot type analysis.

Quote
All tested on Etarnity's opening nonspell on Easy at 2 power. Results may be different at higher power levels.

Reimu shotgunning 6 spring sub options: 16 second mark (at the bottom of the screen, 2 of the sub options are unable to hit the boss)
Reimu 6 winter sub options: 17 second mark
(Did not test with Reimu summer or autumn, as it's nearly impossible to get all the bullets to hit the boss with those types)

Reimu no shooting, lvl 6 winter release on top of boss: 21 second mark
Reimu shooting, lvl 6 winter release away from boss: 21 second mark
Reimu shooting, lvl 6 winter release on top of boss: 24 second mark

Reimu no shooting, lvl 6 autumn release on top of boss: Did not clear pattern before release ended
Reimu shooting, lvl 6 autumn release away from boss: Did not clear pattern before release ended
Reimu shooting, lvl 6 autumn release on top of boss: 21 second mark

(Couldn't clear pattern before the release eneded with spring and summer releases)

Reimu no sub options: 14 second mark
Aya focused no sub options: 12 second mark
Aya unfocus shotgunning no sub options: 16 second mark
Aya unfocus no sub options (bottom of the screen): 13 second mark
Marisa no sub options: 15 second mark
Cirno focused shotgunning no sub options: 17 second mark (may be a higher number, it's difficult to get all her shots to hit the boss)
Cirno focused no sub options (bottom of the screen): 14 second mark
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Drake

  • *
Ow, sorry for making you go to such trouble. I'd crunched the numbers myself, and decided it's quite impossible.
was kinda fun tbh

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
There's actually also a scaling thing going on, where it takes more season items to go from level 5 to level 6 than it does to go from level 1 to level 2. So sometimes it's more profitable to spam lower level flashbombs than to save up for level 6. But it's really up to the individual to see what works for them.

I notice I am making more 2 and 3 shots, especially in the beginnings of Stage 2 and 3. Stage 1 Normal doesn't warrant saving anything up, but carefully timed larger releases later in Stage 3 seem to be pretty advantageous.

I dunno, there's a lot of flexibility to work with, fortunately, to see when releasing what pays off the most for how I play.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

HistoryoftheMoon

I'm still trying to work out the kinks in my Stages 1-3 run for this game. I managed what I thought was a pretty good run- only one stupid death and releases in all the right times- only to get a score much lower than what I've managed before. I'm currently running Winter Reimu, but I'm considering trying out summer for the more convenient stage portions (really, they are the bane of my existence,) and convenient releases.

Anyone know the best time for releasing in Stage 1? Right now I'm just doing Eternity's first spell, but spell bonus is also a thing I'd like. The reason why I'm releasing on Stage 1 at all is for the PiV.

Forward note- I am not a scoring expert, or even a scoring adept, I only just managed to 1CC DDC on Normal today. Really, I'm just trying to maximize score in the first 3 stages in order to get lives in preparation for the latter half of the game (praise the death of life pieces!)

Failure McFailFace

  • I'm h...a...p...p...y...
  • Impor
Hell yeah got my first TH16 1cc normal, AyaSpring.

I ended with 0 lives and 0 bombs, but I made it.

What I can say is that the Fall release was killing me constantly from accidentally ramming bosses and enemies because it didn't do enough damage to kill it/me being stupid and ramming the boss.

Fun.
1cc Easy: DDC (all) | 1cc Normal: UFO (SanA autobomb),  DDC (ReiA, SakA) , LoLK (Sanae PD)| EX clears: DDC (MarB Ultra) | Puzzle Games: StB: 10-X, DS: Hatate unlock, ISC: All clear

Chill Observer

  • Aimless fanatic
  • haHAA
Retired Touhou player. Not involved with anything Touhou anymore.

Aeteas

  • Nonsensical
This is what happens if you cancel too many bullets at once with a release.

I discovered this a couple days ago. If anyone's curious, this cancel is probably 75k-80k PIV. That's about how much it takes to crash the game. There's actually a simple trick that lets you get the cancel without the crashing the game, and you'll be able to see it once I get a score I'm happy with. In any case, I think someone should complain to ZUN about this.

Oh dear, I actually wanted to try using a spring release on that post-Lily White pattern but once I got to it, I forgot I didn't have a full release bar.

I'm kind of glad now though, crashing the game would've been really sad!  Hahaha

HistoryoftheMoon

So, do we have any ideas when the jewel case will be revealed? When is it usually released? Will ZUN post it on his blog, or will it be revealed at the event in August? Please say it will be earlier than August. I do love me some speculation.

So, do we have any ideas when the jewel case will be revealed? When is it usually released? Will ZUN post it on his blog, or will it be revealed at the event in August? Please say it will be earlier than August. I do love me some speculation.

Usually the jewel case is posted days before the event.  ZUN always makes a "Hey I'll shortly be selling this new game, please look forward to it" blog post, like how he did with the one showing Eternity.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
This is what happens if you cancel too many bullets at once with a release.

OK that's pretty hilarious. As I'm playing Normal, not Lunatic, maybe I don't need to worry about this so much? I'll find out.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Jimmy

  • Shameless spender
  • gaining big pounds
Usually the jewel case is posted days before the event.  ZUN always makes a "Hey I'll shortly be selling this new game, please look forward to it" blog post, like how he did with the one showing Eternity.
Having witnessed the development of both DDC and LoLK, I remember that ZUN actually already revealed the jewel cases of these two games several weeks prior to the respective Summer Comikets (around mid to late July). It's only the trial CDs that he reveals them only a few days before their release.
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, UFO, TD, DDC, LoLK Legacy, HSiFS, WBaWC
Hard 1cc: IN, DDC, HSiFS
Extra clears: MoF, DDC, HSiFS, WBaWC

Goals: Going Extra Hard!

HistoryoftheMoon

Having witnessed the development of both DDC and LoLK, I remember that ZUN actually already revealed the jewel cases of these two games several weeks prior to the respective Summer Comikets (around mid to late July). It's only the trial CDs that he reveals them only a few days before their release.
That's a relief, at least somewhat, since we won't know for sure. Really, I don't know how I'm going to survive until August with just the demo. There's so many hints and loose ends (what's the deal with Eternity "looking up to god?" What's Reimu referring to in her dialogue after defeating Aunn? Why does Reimu think a mountain hag, fairy, and komainu are related? Are the protagonists going to fight each other in Stage 4?) The jewel case showing off the final boss (or ZUN could be obnoxious and use the extra boss like in EoSD and PCB, but I doubt that will happen) might give us some more hints, especially if they're holding this "Jade Scepter" that Tenkuushou refers to.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
That's a relief, at least somewhat, since we won't know for sure. Really, I don't know how I'm going to survive until August with just the demo. There's so many hints and loose ends (what's the deal with Eternity "looking up to god?" What's Reimu referring to in her dialogue after defeating Aunn? Why does Reimu think a mountain hag, fairy, and komainu are related? Are the protagonists going to fight each other in Stage 4?) The jewel case showing off the final boss (or ZUN could be obnoxious and use the extra boss like in EoSD and PCB, but I doubt that will happen) might give us some more hints, especially if they're holding this "Jade Scepter" that Tenkuushou refers to.

The jewel case tends to muddy the waters more than clarify anything, hilariously enough. The one exception I remember being DDC, as Sakuna's silhouette was pretty distinct. Apart from that, there have been some incredible attempts to find commonalities. Like I think one person noted a striking similarity between UFO's jewel case and Malmsteen's Fire and Ice album cover.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

HistoryoftheMoon

The jewel case tends to muddy the waters more than clarify anything, hilariously enough. The one exception I remember being DDC, as Sakuna's silhouette was pretty distinct. Apart from that, there have been some incredible attempts to find commonalities. Like I think one person noted a striking similarity between UFO's jewel case and Malmsteen's Fire and Ice album cover.
Yeah, I've been looking into previous game names, direct translations of the Japanese names, and jewel case combinations. The most confusing ones were probably IaMP and HM, although those are fighting games, so they don't really apply. The vaguest direct translated name is probably UFO's "Star Lotus Ship," the only relevant word being ship (while still being pretty useless).

Really, I've got a couple theories as to the plot of HSiFS, but the one that covers the translation name and the one that covers the english name don't really have any overlap, with the latter being all but ruled out. The "hidden star" could be anything, now that the chance of an eclipse messing with the weather has been tossed out and replaced with different weather in different areas. The Jade Scepter probably refers to either a Ruyi or a Shaku (not that I knew anything about either of those until I googled "japanese jade scepter"), but still that's kinda vague, other than shaku being used for Taoist and Shinto rituals, and Ruyi being used in Buddhism. There's also this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazu_Hyakki_Tsurezure_Bukuro (which I reached through the wikipedia page on Ruyi), which makes me think the final boss could be the tsukumogami of a ritual jade scepter. Who wants to mess with the weather. Because reasons. And something about a star. Unless the star is the extra stage boss, thus being "hidden." Hm, this seems to have circled around to the Extra-bosses-on-jewel-cases thing. Maybe it's too much to hope that it'll be like IN, where both the final and extra bosses were on the jewel case?

EDIT: Also, ZUN said that DDC started a new storyline in Gensokyo, just like how MoF did with Moriya shrine conspiracies. The final boss being a tsukumogami could be because of the Miracle Mallet in DDC.

ANOTHER EDIT: Expanding my above theory- thr final boss is the tsukumogami of a ritual jade scepter used to appease the storm god Susanoo.  Now being a salty unused tsukumogami (because the outside world is turning from religion to science, blah blah MoF,) they decide to mess with the weather instead of fixing it. The extra stage boss ends up being a storm youkai, and Kogasa shows up in either the final or extra stage and ties with Nue on midboss appearances. The hidden star is... A simultaneous yet unrelated plot.

Okay, this is sounding a blazing hell of a lot like the fanmade game idea I had a couple weeks ago.

Finally, since LoLK revolved around the moon and HSiFS revolves around a star, the next game will end up being about the sun or something. Because sun/moon/stars. Insert Utsuho, Amaterasu, etc.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 10:42:46 PM by HistoryoftheMoon »

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
The Jade Scepter probably refers to either a Ruyi or a Shaku (not that I knew anything about either of those until I googled "japanese jade scepter"), but still that's kinda vague, other than shaku being used for Taoist and Shinto rituals, and Ruyi being used in Buddhism.
Actually the comparison of zhang to ruyi or Shaku is to help people who already knew about either to more easily visualize it, and not so helpful if you don't, because zhang predates both by at least a millennium. We know the original purposes of the latter two - Shaku for courtiers to write memo on, ruyi from a backscratcher into a purely ornamental object, but can only guess at the Neolithic/early Bronze mystery that is zhang.

For HSiFS, the jade ritual ladle sense of zhang seems most relevant, now that we know the earlier version of the main title also has "star" in it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 01:14:55 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

I think it's important to note that the game's title is generally very tangentially related, if not completely unrelated, to the story the game is based on. Like, I don't think we've had any game where the title's been a direct reference to the final boss's original legend or story.

I'm sure ZUN will add stuff to make the story fit the title (like he did with Miko's "hearing ten people" evolving into "hearing ten desires"), but if his past games are anything to go by the "jade scepter" and "hidden star" won't be a part of the original myth, or else will be a very small part of the myth.

So looking up stuff based on that is probably futile.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 01:59:02 AM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
I think it's important to note that the game's title is generally very tangentially related, if not completely unrelated, to the story the game is based on. Like, I don't think we've had any game where the title's been a direct reference to the final boss's original legend or story.

I'm sure ZUN will add stuff to make the story fit the title (like he did with Miko's "hearing ten people" evolving into "hearing ten desires"), but if his past games are anything to go by the "jade scepter" and "hidden star" won't be a part of the original myth, or else will be a very small part of the myth.
Oh, surely the so-called "Eastern Record of Wind Gods ~ Mountain of Faith." is about wind gods whose worship is focused on sacred mountains?

More seriously, Touhou titles are chosen for the imagery. Sometimes the images they conjure are pivotal to the plot, sometimes not.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 02:51:34 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

HistoryoftheMoon

Oh, surely the so-called "Eastern Record of Wind Gods ~ Mountain of Faith." is about wind gods whose worship is focused on sacred mountains?

More seriously, Touhou titles are chosen for the imagery. Sometimes the images they conjure are pivotal to the plot, sometimes not.
So the gist of it is... We really won't know for sure until it actually comes out.

Nah, you're misunderstanding me. Of course the title refers to something in the plot. I'm saying that you'd never guess from the title that the "Wind God" they're referring to is based on one of the gods of the Suwa shrine. The most direct reference to a real legend we've gotten is "Shining Needle Castle", which is still fairly vague.

While the Jade Scepter or the Hidden Star will probably be plot relevant in the game, I'm saying I don't think they'll be plot relevant (or at least not super important) in the legend that the game is based on (assuming ZUN doesn't go the EoSD route and make the final boss 100% original, which would be kind of weird at this point).

.....Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 03:18:14 AM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

Onion

  • Classic era Marisa-like entity
  • Failing at Touhou since 2000-something
Least it's at least a little related. It could've been like "Eastern Night Vignette ~ Imperishable Night", where the premise is the whole title and nothing's left for speculation. For now, we have
  • A star
  • Something hidden
  • Some sorta sword
  • Jade
Mima is a star... who's been hidden... and her staff looks like a sword... and her hair's green.
Mystery solved.
Please wait warmly. Girls are intentionally leaving this space blank.

Since everybody has these: 1CC PoDD ez, 1CC(?) EoSD ez, PD LoLK, something something HM ULiL

HistoryoftheMoon

Least it's at least a little related. It could've been like "Eastern Night Vignette ~ Imperishable Night", where the premise is the whole title and nothing's left for speculation. For now, we have
  • A star
  • Something hidden
  • Some sorta sword
  • Jade
Mima is a star... who's been hidden... and her staff looks like a sword... and her hair's green.
Mystery solved.
Joint plot between Meme-a and Yuuka to revive PC-98 canon confirmed. Yuuka's the four seasons, Mima's the hidden star. The Jade scepter is Sariel's staff.

Edit: Or rather, Mima's staff is the scepter, like you said, and the moon on the point is the Lunar occult ball.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 03:30:58 AM by HistoryoftheMoon »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Increasing PIV, on Normal anyway, seems to work a lot better by releasing at 3 or even 2 at crucial times/parts of the screen, as opposed to saving up for 6 and releasing it when the screen is full. I haven't been able to replicate crashing the game yet, but at the very least, saving up for 6 instead of using 3's and 2's when you can and should doesn't seem to pay off except as an occasional thing.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Raikaria

  • Do Tank Girls Dream...
  • *
  • Of Floating Eyeballs?
So; with Lilly White appearing as a Stage 3 Midboss dosen't this make Lilly White the most recurring non-playable enemy character?

She's been present in 3 main series games; PCB; PofV and now HSFS; as well as 1 spinoff GFW. That's 4 games where she's appeared as an enemy character. And she managed this without being in STB or DS; where pretty much every character appears; and counting those she was previously tied with Kogasa and Nue at 3 enemy appearances [UFO; TD and DS]; and perhaps a couple of others.

And Lilly White has managed this all without being an actual boss once. Even in GFW.

Forget Cirno. Lilly White's the persistent one!

Has ZUN ever at any time "borrowed from the fandom", or do i see this hope with every new game because wishful thinking?

Parsee's typical elf ears. Parsee never actually had those in SA but when she had art in SoPM; there they were. I mean; her ears were noticeable before and that could have been ZUN-art [One ear looks vaguely elfish while the other looks human] but she clearly had ear lobes in her SA art but her SoPM artwork dosen't and they're styrotypical elf ears.

SA Parsee art: https://en.touhouwiki.net/images/e/ed/Th11Parsee.png
SoPM art: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:ThGKParsee.png

Also I believe similar happened for Koakuma's wings; except that was a manga panel. She clearly dosn't have back-wings [At least; ones large enough to be visible] in her EoSD sprite; but in Strange and Bright Deity 14; she had wings on her back [I'm not gonna mention Moon+Earth since that's a little questionable in it's own right]

But these are minor character design tweaks from the fandom. Not taking an entire character idea.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 12:27:45 PM by Raikaria »


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

GenericArrangements

  • The Monthly Ghost of the Art Atelier
  • i do the music thing (!?)
I wouldn't necessarily take art from the manga as a definite source for canon details. Obviously ZUN doesn't draw them himself, so it ends up being dependent on whatever the actual artist thinks looks good. As a result things becomes inconsistent. An example of this is in WaHH when Kogasa is seen disconnected from her umbrella. Kogasa shouldn't actually be able to do that.

SoPM is possibly a slightly different story though.
Please read my posts as if I'm not taking them too seriously.

i did a lunatic 1cc of MoF once and i'm happy enough with just that

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Yeah, when I say " has ZUN borrowed from the fandom" I don't mean "did an artist drawing official manga use anything" but rather, has ZUN himself actually borrowed from the fandom in his games. So far the answer seems to be "no" or at best a hard "maybe" on stuff like the name of Daiyousei, so it still puzzles me that people still hold onto hope that ZUN will lift a fan-made character wholesale, especially one from the western fandom.

Maybe it's a troll claim, though, like speculations about Mima's return.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

HistoryoftheMoon

Yeah, when I say " has ZUN borrowed from the fandom" I don't mean "did an artist drawing official manga use anything" but rather, has ZUN himself actually borrowed from the fandom in his games. So far the answer seems to be "no" or at best a hard "maybe" on stuff like the name of Daiyousei, so it still puzzles me that people still hold onto hope that ZUN will lift a fan-made character wholesale, especially one from the western fandom.
Which fan-made character are we talking about here? I lost track of the discussion.

And yeah, it's hard to tell when people are joking about absurd stuff like using fanmade characters...

Which fan-made character are we talking about here? I lost track of the discussion.

And yeah, it's hard to tell when people are joking about absurd stuff like using fanmade characters...

I didn't check the whole discussion (and am quite lazy to do so @__@) but I believe they're talking about a Mushroom-youkai called Masha, which was created in a popular Walfas.swf back in the day. 

Some people in the thread said Zun was taking inspiration from her for one reason or another, I think.