Author Topic: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!  (Read 467420 times)

Zil

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #630 on: May 16, 2013, 09:21:44 PM »
And what again is the problem with doing it horizontally?

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #631 on: May 16, 2013, 09:36:33 PM »
And what again is the problem with doing it horizontally?

Mostly the technical issues of HOW to do so without possibly wrecking some of the original formatting/aesthetic, I think.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #632 on: May 16, 2013, 09:47:53 PM »
@G_H: While that's not a bad idea I expect this might butt heads with ZUN's apathy toward the western audience. If nothing else, I'd say it was an odd choice to make a decision that would make translations so difficult.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #633 on: May 16, 2013, 09:50:30 PM »
I always thought it was more unawareness/cluelessness about the Western audience than outright not caring.

I mean, hey, he's coming to AWA later this year, remember? :V

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #634 on: May 16, 2013, 10:28:08 PM »
Personally, I would much prefer to read a column of letters than tilt my head 90? to read dialogue.

But mostly I think cuc's right - if you can get this far, you might as well go all the way.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #635 on: May 16, 2013, 10:29:49 PM »
I always thought it was more unawareness/cluelessness about the Western audience than outright not caring.

I mean, hey, he's coming to AWA later this year, remember? :V
I dunno, maybe a little bit of both. Yeah he's coming to AWA but that would also require him to be aware of his audience.
Also, who here is actually tilting their head to read that? I'm actually just reading it on its side.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #636 on: May 16, 2013, 10:30:55 PM »
I wonder how feasible a column of letters that slants from left to right as you descend down the word would be. That vertical typeset job is only difficult to read because lining up all the letters makes it feel like they're all bleeding into each other.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #637 on: May 16, 2013, 10:35:10 PM »
Also, who here is actually tilting their head to read that? I'm actually just reading it on its side.

Like I said, I am actually tilting my head to read that. You see, the letters are rotated 90? to the right. So to read them better, I in turn tilt my head 90? to the right. HTH.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Prime32

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #638 on: May 16, 2013, 10:39:05 PM »

I'm not really sure with this.... What do you guys think?
Try replacing the spaces with " ? ".

Validon98

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #639 on: May 16, 2013, 11:07:02 PM »
Wow, I can't really read that well. This English patch is going to be a doozy to make, isn't it?
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #640 on: May 16, 2013, 11:34:14 PM »
You know, with the one that has straight columns of letters, what if there were more spacing between them? I get the feeling that would break up the bleeding effect.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #641 on: May 17, 2013, 12:27:58 AM »
Quoting the relevant bits about difficulty of hacking HM:

Quote
SWR was far worse than that. As best I understand, mauve wound up rewriting most or all of the code for the deckbuilding screen, plus some of the internal graphics engine, and then went to work on the game's main loop before things got too over my head to follow. And it STILL doesn't work quite right.

HM is even worse than that. The deckbuilding screen is back, with even more complexity, there are more finicky interface elements, and the entire game is coated in layers of heavy duty, better than 99% of commercial games, why would anyone even DO this encryption. And that's just the demo! Who knows what the full game and story mode are going to bring?

The encryption in particular is really absurd and totally unnecessary, to the point where we think it actually is targeted at us meddling fans.
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #642 on: May 17, 2013, 12:34:22 AM »
Holy crap. Glad I'm not a big fan of fighting games.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

KrackoCloud

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #643 on: May 17, 2013, 12:48:57 AM »
Can we just like
have subtitles or something?

Validon98

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #644 on: May 17, 2013, 12:54:55 AM »
But the Japanese will still be there.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. The only thing would someone would have to create a new function to print a new type of text box simultaneously with the existing one. That could still be problematic.
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

Devil of Decline Partial English Gameplay Patch!
Let's Play Nightmare of Rebellion!

Lukesky180

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #645 on: May 17, 2013, 01:25:24 AM »
But the Japanese will still be there.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. The only thing would someone would have to create a new function to print a new type of text box simultaneously with the existing one. That could still be problematic.
Agreed. I think that's really confusing, although I would be curious to see how it would turn out.
>This is the little mistress.
>Oh, hello little one!
Is this my dream, the destiny to behold?
~Sister of Scarlet~

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #646 on: May 17, 2013, 01:31:09 AM »
Could perhaps just remove the speech bubbles entirely and go straight subtitle?

Lukesky180

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #647 on: May 17, 2013, 01:44:40 AM »
Could perhaps just remove the speech bubbles entirely and go straight subtitle?
Now that's something I'm curious to see the results of. Seems interesting, can we do that?
>This is the little mistress.
>Oh, hello little one!
Is this my dream, the destiny to behold?
~Sister of Scarlet~

G_H

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #648 on: May 17, 2013, 02:09:58 AM »
Can we just like
have subtitles or something?
I was thinking the same thing. Up to my neck in disassemblers here, trying to figure out where th135.pak is being accessed and hoping that we'd be able to rip out the routines that read the data so it can be dumped to a bin file. But this is way out of my league.
However, AGTH works on it. As long as you run through AppLocale (or set your locale to Japanese), AGTH will extract text. There are some minor issues... Characters seem to drop out and some are doubled, but if you compare with what you see on-screen, with a bit of manual work you can extract the text. Now, AGTH isn't open source so I'm not sure how it works its magic, but ITH does have source available. And it might provide some inspiration.

So I was thinking about the following:
1) Code something that performs DLL injection in the style of ITH, intercepting text routine calls.
2) Extract printed text and perform some sort of pattern matching that figures out what part of the game is being shown (spell card descriptions, dialogue, menu...)
3) Show translation on overlay with text and location dependent on the results of step 2.

Obviously there's a lot of technical details to work out. If gobs of text are being loaded into memory before being shown, it might be hard to detect what's exacty active or not. Easy enough for stuff like dialogue; you could intercept keyboard presses and DirectInput/XInput (disassembly seemed to show both DInput and XInput) calls to make the subs progress along with the dialogue. But for stuff like the spell card screen it might get hairier.

So what would be needed is a way to hook into text routine calls, for which ITH can provide good tutelage. The matching of text and translation is trivially easy. Then there'd be the challenge of showing subs at the proper size and location, windowed and full-screen. Anyone got any idea how that could be accomplished? Disassembly shows includes of d3dx9_43.dll.

Kosachi

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #649 on: May 17, 2013, 02:26:05 AM »
I have no clue if we can do that, but I personally believe that it would look a little odd to have subtitles in a game that was made for speech bubbles. Think about it, character A and character B would just awkwardly float there starring at each other with nothing happening on the screen while the subs roll. I find that would make the story scenes a tad too uneventful, but that's just me.
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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #650 on: May 17, 2013, 02:33:04 AM »
I'm glad I don't care about the in-game translations. If I want to read something, I can just go to touhou wiki instead and check the translated dialogue from there. The only thing I want with HM is play it.

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #651 on: May 17, 2013, 03:45:42 AM »
Cool.

iK

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #652 on: May 17, 2013, 04:03:24 AM »
So long as the menu and skill cards are translated, I'd honestly be fine with no dialogue transcription for a while.
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AnonymousPondScum

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #653 on: May 17, 2013, 04:05:20 AM »
So long as the menu and skill cards are translated, I'd honestly be fine with no dialogue transcription for a while.

Seconding this. I'd like to know what I'm doing when remapping buttons. :getdown:

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #654 on: May 17, 2013, 04:18:20 AM »
Menus are easy, being simple PNGs.

Skill names are also easy to do with a simple quick 'n dirty text replacing, but most text may have to be shortened in order to fit in.

Making a HM patch with basic functions is not hard. The hard part is to make it good.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:20:42 AM by cuc »
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game2011

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #655 on: May 17, 2013, 04:20:27 AM »
Hmmm... Thanks for the quick response, C. Angel.

Still, the Okuu character sprite in the pic does look nice, yes?
Her facial expression, especially the eyes, don't match with the other playable characters.  Everyone's cheerful-looking, but she's very evil-looking...

In the past two fighting games, you can tell that everyone has similar-looking facial expressions, even if they don't look cheerful, so there's no reason to give Utsuho a facial expression that doesn't have the same style as other characters here.

Of course, one may argue that this game uses a different engine, so such a case may not be applied anymore.  Still, I don't exactly find her sprite in that pic similar to the other confirmed characters.

As for whether or not the sprite looks nice...  I think it's pretty good!  But the face isn't appealing...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:21:59 AM by game2011 »

UTW

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #656 on: May 17, 2013, 04:24:57 AM »
Yeah I can always check Touhou Wiki for the dialogue. Not that I don't appreciate the full translation efforts from before but all that's essential to me is menus, cards, etc., and endings. If I can sacrifice translated speech for a translation of the menus at least then I will.

G_H

Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #657 on: May 17, 2013, 11:35:25 AM »
I have no clue if we can do that, but I personally believe that it would look a little odd to have subtitles in a game that was made for speech bubbles. Think about it, character A and character B would just awkwardly float there starring at each other with nothing happening on the screen while the subs roll. I find that would make the story scenes a tad too uneventful, but that's just me.
The speech bubbles wouldn't be removed, since that would imply hacking the game. Which is exactly what it kind of difficult. The subs could be an overlay or placed at a convenient place. I grew up watching nearly everything on TV in English with Dutch subs, you get used to it soon enough. It is that which taught me English, in fact.

Menus are easy, being simple PNGs.

Skill names are also easy to do with a simple quick 'n dirty text replacing, but most text may have to be shortened in order to fit in.

Making a HM patch with basic functions is not hard. The hard part is to make it good.
The image data is in the th135.pak which, contrary to the previous fighters (where it was just a zip with a different extension) is currently incomprehensible. I don't know if it's just some proprietary format they came up with and we'd only need to identify what is stored where, or if the thing has in fact went through some obfuscation algorithm, but at any rate it's not easy to adjust.

If the pak is too difficult to reverse-engineer, and trying to use the program itself to get at its actual data isn't feasible, then using run-time hooks is the next best thing.

What I don't understand is why on earth Tasofro is making this so difficult... It's not like this is to stop piracy, because as far as I know there's no DRM or license key use. I'd say the BGM and sprite rippers, translators, patchers and netplay coders are exactly the people who've contributed to the success of the previous games and made it so that even IaMP still has a core following to this day.

FinnKaenbyou

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #658 on: May 17, 2013, 12:14:28 PM »
Page just updated.

Spoiler:
Byakuren confirmed. Nice hat.

Only thing I can translate is the last word: Angirasa Veda.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:17:26 PM by Sango Tororetsu »

cuc

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Re: Touhou 13.5 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade. Yay!
« Reply #659 on: May 17, 2013, 12:25:30 PM »
@G_H

Thanks for chiming in! But to tell the truth, the pack file has already been successfully reverse-engineered by the Chinese community, including repacking with new image files. I've already seen test screenshots. And as I said, I have no doubt re: the Chinese community's willingness to share the tools developed for HM.
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