Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Shade_]

I am not completely opposed to sending one last email. Though, I must warn you that even if we send an email, from our personal experience it is most likely that he will not respond. If he does not respond and I relay this information 30 days later. Would you guys even believe us? In addition, why don't you tweet TSA yourselves and have them allow us to disclose the information?

[Reu]

I am not completely opposed to sending one last email. Though, I must warn you that even if we send an email, from our personal experience it is most likely that he will not respond. If he does not respond and I relay this information 30 days later. Would you guys even believe us? In addition, why don't you tweet TSA yourselves and have them allow us to disclose the information?

Well for one thing ZUN himself wouldn't respond for sure.
So why not email the same guy you've been talking to?

[tohosubs]

What I want to clear out instead is this allegation that Zun has shut down their project because that is a claim that would damage Zun integrity; as can be seen in the comment section of that video how much anti-Zun sentiment has been shown

Yes, I agree that this is the main concern. Their latest video has almost certainly tarnished ZUN's and the Japanese doujin community's reputation in the minds of many of FSS's Smash fans who don't know much about Touhou. But arguing with them here, and especially over a point they clearly and understandably won't yield on, accomplishes nothing. Informed Touhou fans who are capable of writing clearly and respectfully, and only those Touhou fans, should go to their video and reply to comments to correct any misinformation.

[Shade_]

So about my last post regarding the email you want me to send?

[Paz legalces]

Email to that secondary relay person who has come into contact with you ealier; and perhaps asking regarding the disclosing email information as well would be grand
Since you guys are the party that is in control of this project and not us; we are in no position to request something of that matter within your group and TSA
Says though, even if you guys did receive that you can still make a Touhou game... it would still be too late for you guys to go back on making a Touhou game right?

[Reu]

Email to that secondary relay person who has come into contact with you ealier; and perhaps asking regarding the disclosing email information as well would be grand
Since you guys are the party that is in control of this project and not us; we are in no position to request something of that matter within your group and TSA
Says though, even if you guys did receive that you can still make a Touhou game... it would still be too late for you guys to go back on making a Touhou game right?

Realistically there's nothing stopping them from deleting videos
That's the magic about those things.
Though that's purely up to them.

[Saijee]

As I read Touhou Subs...
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?

As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.

[Shade_]

The secondary (relay person) Is Fumiyo Oyamada. The same exact person who filed the copyright claim on indigogo.

I did not mention this in the video. But in the notice that we received from Indigogo, Mr. Fumio Oyamada, swore under punishment of perjury. That he is "a" owner of the material in question, and that it is not authorized for use and a copyright infringement. Meaning Mr. Oyamada has legal rights over Touhou like ZUN, and if he says it is not authorized and an infringement of copyright, then it is the same legal affect that ZUN's word would have.

[ShinesBright]

woops there is a discussion going on....

I had a long post but I will ask my questions later and you guys can continue.

[Reu]

The secondary (relay person) Is Fumiyo Oyamada. The same exact person who filed the copyright claim on indigogo.

I did not mention this in the video. But in the notice that we received from Indigogo, Mr. Fumio Oyamada, swore under punishment of perjury. That he is "a" owner of the material in question, and that it is not authorized for use and a copyright infringement. Meaning Mr. Oyamada has legal rights over Touhou like ZUN, and if he says it is not authorized and an infringement of copyright, then it is the same legal affect that ZUN's word would have.

He speaks for ZUN which is true.

Then you speak to him instead of emailing ZUN who you know won't reply

As I read Touhou Subs...
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?

As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.

The information Shade is providing shows it clear that this isn't something as black and white as you think.

[Paz legalces]

By all mean, I can assure you that they only call copyright strike toward the Indiegogo which was still up... it has absolutely nothing to do with the project status as a doujin game
If you play by the Doujin rules and yet Zun still called you out, then he would be essentially breaking his own guidelines, and do something completely unprecedented in the history of Touhou... which is extremely unlikely given the history of how the Doujin culture has made  Touhou into what it is today; calling strike on one Touhou game that is playing by the rule would create an unrest on all other future project... something so logically unsound that no ordinary person let alone Zun would do, especially considering what is at stake

[Shade_]

Then what if he doesn't reply? Despite my best effort to prove that FSS does not steal money, or is trying to make a quick profit by moving to the Wii-U, or that we never wanted to make the game not Touhou. There seems to be very little hope that the people on this forum will believe me. And when he does not and I relay the information it does not appear that it will make a difference.

[Reu]

Then what if he doesn't reply? Despite my best effort to prove that FSS does not steal money, or is trying to make a quick profit by moving to the Wii-U, or that we never wanted to make the game not Touhou. There seems to be very little hope that the people on this forum will believe me.

Stop dwelling on what ifs and simply do.

IF we all sat here wondering about the worst possible result then we'd all get nothing done in life.

Send the email and whatever happens happens.

You don't have anything to lose at this point.

[Paz legalces]

Didn't your brother Ito once said that he has talked to his lawyers (student friends) that even if Zun was to change his mind layed down a copyright strike on the project once it is finished; you guys would still be protected by the law of evidences and would happily win in court?
...regardless, all evidence and logic would point toward that Zun would in no way asking you to cease the project and the email was only about putting the project off of IGG, the commercial channel that was the problem
Please reconfirm thing, and from there deciding on whether you should continue be making touhou stuffs are up to you guys; but clearing things over first should be something that is of priority given the situation

[Shade_]

Seriously, as of right now. FSS has just been accused of copyright infringement. Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?

[Reu]

Seriously, as of right now. FSS has just been accused of copyright infringement. Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?

This is Doujin Culture.
That means if you want something done you'll have to work for it.

Are you going to send the email or not?

[Shade_]

Are you going to believe me if I tell you exactly what they tell me?

[Omegahugger]

The IGG campaign being shut down, it doesn't look as though the copyright issue is still pending.

At any rate, being accused of something doesn't mean you can't communicate with your accusers. Much less someone who represents them by proxy. IANAL, but there's no situation I can think of where a request for clarification is prohibited....

[Reu]

Are you going to believe me if I tell you exactly what they tell me?

Indeed I will, though the answer isn't for me it's for your circle.

It's always best to have a definite answer no matter what.

[Vento]

Shade if you don't want to send the email then don't send it. simple as that

[Shade_]

I have no problem sending the email. I just don't want to waste my time if no one is going to listen.

[Reu]

As said before.
Yes at least I will listen.

[Paz legalces]

I want to believe
Yes. I can't speak for everyone but unless you are out to destroy Zun rep, then I doubt you guys are anything but wouldn't a liar

Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?

Doujin culture, you guys have already said a lot about how you don't get the culture; then how about just trust us on this one... for once
*Again, I would like to stress that the copyright strike was written under normal language for the IGG people and not within the context of Doujin; and that all Doujin Fanworks are copyright infringements by default*
*Give the man Zun some faith and a lot more benefit of doubts; just as the faith you would want us to have on you guys*

[tohosubs]

Here's one point I want to stress.

There were concerns that this incident may tarnish the western Touhou community's reputation. Here, I echo N-Forza:

I wouldn't be too worried about that, provided a second similar case doesn't crop up (and it better not). There are already a number of foreigners who are creating under ZUN's guidelines, so it would take a little bit more before that trust is totally lost.

A Japanese Touhou doujin game developer also told me as much on Twitter.

In particular, this is not a good reason to get into a heated argument.

Some data to reassure you: I've been following every tweet search result for 東方 大乱闘, 東方 スマブラ, and 東方 WiiU from the beginning (and also threads on 東方裏, etc.). There were never all that many relevant tweets besides those linking those articles. There were a good number of tweets on the 15th about the correction regarding WiiU, but after that the number dropped to fewer than 20/day. Information about the game never even spread that far. (I even saw a tweet that seemed to think that the whole game, not just the WiiU part, was false information, but I can't find it now.) The handful of users from Japan who continued to follow the information were also reading this discussion on MotK and understand that the western Touhou community disapproves as much of FSS's actions.

[Shade_]

Fair enough, I told myself if one of you said you would listen then I'll send one more email.

I will make deal then. I'll send this email and relay the information on the forums exactly as they respond.

Regardless of whether FSS is clear of the copyright issue of the game though. We are not going to take the risk of continuing the smash game under the Touhou name for extra precautions.

However...if they say that FSS does indeed still have the ability to create a Touhou game then when the new game is finished, we will release a modded version of the game featuring the original roster and replace the character models. After the development of the new smash game is completed.

[Paz legalces]

Here's one point I want to stress.

There were concerns that this incident may tarnish the western Touhou community's reputation. Here, I echo N-Forza:A Japanese Touhou doujin game developer also told me as much on Twitter.

In particular, this is not a good reason to get into a heated argument.

Some data to reassure you: I've been following every tweet search result for 東方 大乱闘, 東方 スマブラ, and 東方 WiiU from the beginning (and also threads on 東方裏, etc.). There were never all that many relevant tweets besides those linking those articles. There were a good number of tweets on the 15th about the correction regarding WiiU, but after that the number dropped to fewer than 20/day. Information about the game never even spread that far. (I even saw a tweet that seemed to think that the whole game, not just the WiiU part, was false information, but I can't find it now.) The handful of users from Japan who continued to follow the information also read this discussion on MotK and understand that the western Touhou community disapproves as much of FSS's actions.

To be honest, I am not exactly from the Western scene and is South East Asian so I personally actually wouldn't be worried as much about what the Japanese folks will be thinking of the West
...what I am actually only solely concern about is the impression this will last on future international Touhou fan among each other where 2 version of this event will be told... and I wouldn't want one of them to be under the narrative of a xenophobic Japanese who don't want to share his goodness to foreigners
The Japanese may think badly of us but at least that would just mean the status quo going on as it is as always for the past years or so... but it is more important to maintain image among the Western fan altogether

[Reu]

What would be the point?
In the end you're still creating a Touhou game.

But eh your work.

[Paz legalces]

Fair enough, I told myself if one of you said you would listen then I'll send one more email.

I will make deal then. I'll send this email and relay the information on the forums exactly as they respond.

Regardless of whether FSS is clear of the copyright issue of the game though. We are not going to take the risk of continuing the smash game under the Touhou name for extra precautions.

However...if they say that FSS does indeed still have the ability to create a Touhou game then when the new game is finished, we will release a modded version of the game featuring the original roster and replace the character models. After the development of the new smash game is completed.

Yes, that would be grand but... the the person responding email speak English or will you be using translation for that?
...and perhaps if it isn't too much to ask... would it be possible for us to check the email as I am sure the folks here who are well-versed with Japanese cultures would  help ensuring the email as clear and concise as possible (as a lot of misinformation and loose interpretation due to cultural context barrier has been going on already) Would that be alright with you?

[Helepolis]

It seems we are slightly going back to round 1 indeed. Cheers Kilga for stepping in while I was sleeping and reminding people that we're expect people to behave and stick to the topic of discussion. Now that I have read several replies, specifically Shade & Saijee's, I have to quote two of them:

We are not allowed to publish the emails of TSA.Soure; http://www.rbs2.com/email.htm

Are you going to believe me if I tell you exactly what they tell me?

I thought I already suggested this at page 19. See below

Suggestion, you're not obliged too but if you really want to convince us and take away part of that shady behaviour:  Censor out the header name/e-mailaddress and PM / Pastebin (private, with expiration timer) Monhan / Forza or Cuc the e-mail (they are the doujin experts here), so they can read it and confirm whether it is true or not. That way, there will be no public disclosure. Think about this.

I don't know why Saijee is suddenly backing off again, I thought he apologised for this behaviour and was willing to discuss? Shade is somewhat more willing to clear things up it seems.

As  suggested: Censor the e-mailaddress of Fumio-san. Don't translate it.  Send the mail in PM to above given names and let them confirm.


@ Saijee & Shade, you're still not getting this whole copyright issue though. Can I offer a Skype conversation? Maybe a group conversation with Kilga if he wants to join?

[Shade_]

I'll say this once, and you can believe me or not. But FSS's agenda does not include making people hate ZUN. ZUN made no attempt to soften the negativity his friends and fans were tossing at FSS and made no attempt to be considerate of the effort we put in to being accommodating and fixing our mistakes.

As of such I do not feel responsible for not fanning the flames of those who understood FSS's position.