Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[cuc]

So the conclusion is we have gray zones within gray zones within gray zones. That's admittedly pretty hard to work with.

[Eilaris]

So let me see if I've got this all right, reading the thread and all: Saijee's required to attempt to refund all the IGG money to stay in compliance with the ZUN guidelines, the IGG contributors are not required to accept said refunds, and regardless of whether or not the IGG contributors accept said refunds, Saijee's required to eventually deliver on all of the perks that were presented on IGG to stay in compliance with IGG guidelines, and the only way Saijee can distribute the final product is either through direct sale of physical copies or free download?  Did I get everything in there right?

[Sparen]

So let me see if I've got this all right, reading the thread and all: Saijee's required to attempt to refund all the IGG money to stay in compliance with the ZUN guidelines, the IGG contributors are not required to accept said refunds, and regardless of whether or not the IGG contributors accept said refunds, Saijee's required to eventually deliver on all of the perks that were presented on IGG to stay in compliance with IGG guidelines, and the only way Saijee can distribute the final product is either through direct sale of physical copies or free download?  Did I get everything in there right?

This is quite a good summary.

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

<summary>

Sounds about right to me. Although the "contributors are not required to accept said refunds" doesn't really click with me. If he refunds the money and contributors still want to donate, they can do so separately of IGG and it would still be legal.

[Alcoraiden]

Saijee has said that he will automatically refund everyone's money *unless* they reply to his email saying he should keep their money as a donation. So anyone who is not intending to donate to the cause, or even who doesn't happen to respond, will get a refund. I'm guessing letting donors refuse a refund is just preventing the extra step of "they receive money and then give it right back."

[pasu]

RIP PoFV playables  :V Unless FSS is planning to go ahead with all the perks, knowing they have no obligation to after refunding them. Wonder if any donor will think that if they reject the refund, the IGG perk they funded still stands...

[Omegahugger]

Saijee has said that he will automatically refund everyone's money *unless* they reply to his email saying he should keep their money as a donation. So anyone who is not intending to donate to the cause, or even who doesn't happen to respond, will get a refund. I'm guessing letting donors refuse a refund is just preventing the extra step of "they receive money and then give it right back."

I don't mean to play devil's advocate here but it seems like if someone donated, they'd have no reason not to let FSS keep the donation in the first place. It's like if IGG had a "take back your donation" button, which nobody would use unless they made their donation by accident or something. And that being the case, these donations were obtained through means that don't conform to doujin rules....

In other words, this is really not all that different from keeping the IGG-obtained donations in the first place. On the other hand I wouldn't have any suggestion for doing this the "right way" so, I'm just putting it out there as food for thought..... =P

One way or another, I think FSS should consult with someone involved with the doujin crowd, given that IGG can't simply be cancelled (which it sounds like was what ZUN was expecting - simply cancelling IGG, I mean) instead of deciding on their own how to proceed from here.

Well.... whatever. If this approach is fine with ZUN, all the more power to them I suppose. =)

[Firestorm29]

Few points I want to bring up:

1. They said they were setup with DLsite, which I'm sure the japanese side us ok, but people are acting like it isn't.

2. Where'd they say they weren't going to try donat ion where?

Although FFS, I would like to suggest trying to maybe invite some help. This really is a bit of a first for a lot of us, and have someone who can focus in on stuff like working with Japanese or 3d models isn't a bad thing. It'd help out with parts you might not be too strong with, or don't have enough time to dedicate to.

Also share a concern about the misunderstandings becoming the standard that other western projects are looked at, although it might not be the case.

[Paz legalces]

Saijee has said that he will automatically refund everyone's money *unless* they reply to his email saying he should keep their money as a donation. So anyone who is not intending to donate to the cause, or even who doesn't happen to respond, will get a refund. I'm guessing letting donors refuse a refund is just preventing the extra step of "they receive money and then give it right back."

Actually a bit of changes, now Saijee has just stated on FSS FB Page that due to Indiegogo policy, you now HAVE TO REQUEST FOR REFUND PERSONALLY in order to actually be refunded back.
...not sure about the detail of the policy but now there's that, FSS stated that they will send out emails regarding this changes to all contributor tomorrow so they can reply to it to be of valid status to receive refunding

[Eilaris]

I took a look over at Indiegogo's own TOS, and this passage sticks out to me:

Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.

This would seem to imply that Saijee can avoid the perk problem (since the fan work guidelines probably preclude him from performing on the commitment, and he can offer the refund as compensation). 

EDIT: further down the page it expressly says that, in fact, if a contribution is refunded the associated perk is canceled.  So that's that.

That all said, it almost seems like the "easiest" way out of this mess would simply be for ZUN to DMCA takedown the indiegogo campaign, which would presumably cancel all the contributions.  I don't know precisely how IGG works, though, and this does naturally run the risk of other repercussions for Saijee (e.g. possible ban from IGG).  It seems to me, however, that ZUN could take this step without quashing the actual game.

[Helepolis]

Actually a bit of changes, now Saijee has just stated on FSS FB Page that due to Indiegogo policy, you now HAVE TO REQUEST FOR REFUND PERSONALLY in order to actually be refunded back.
...not sure about the detail of the policy but now there's that, FSS stated that they will send out emails regarding this changes to all contributor tomorrow so they can reply to it to be of valid status to receive refunding

That is according to normal procedures. Like people want to cancel their funding or adjust the amount (give less), they have to handle it with the campaign holder.

But we aren't having a normal procedure here. We're having a problem here. The problem is that Doujin guidelines are still being violated, regardless of what Saijee is claiming and or saying. The money has to go back entirely.

TL-repeatingthistoomanytimes-DR Like many people said here: Saijee should stop spouting nonsense about the policy of IGG and simply ask Team Shanghai Alice to shut down the crowdfunding based on copyright claim.


Edit: To people confusing Project shutdown with Crowfunding shutdown >> Crowdfunding is being labeled as a "project" by some, hence the confusion. Shutting down the funding has nothing to do with the game it self being shutdown or discontinued.

[Alcoraiden]

Totally independent of the money issue, it'd be kinda cool if FSS ends up keeping the player-chosen roster characters just because the fans were super enthusiastic or something...I can dream. (Back to your regularly scheduled issues discussion.)

[Helepolis]

The issue regarding the perks, refunding and cancellation has been also addressed on youtube and this is how Itohkuni responded:

Thank you, I checked it out.

So here is the thing. When FSS talked to TSA and I asked them what the problem was and the only thing that they said was they wanted the campaign to be canceled. They actually did not specify any way whatsoever how the money that had already been collected should be handled. They wanted one thing, and one thing only, and that was to cancel the campaign. The whole thing about us reimbursing each donor is a decision made completely by FSS alone. Not a recommendation by TSA. I understand we will fall short a few dollars because indigogo get's a share of the money. That is going to be filled by me personally.

Anyhow, in order to become as far out of the woods as possible. FSS decided to reimburse the donors even though TSA mentioned nothing of it. Also, we are encouraging and making reimbursement a primary option. I don't by any standards want to get into a legal battle with Zun. However, I've talked to a few law student friends of mine and a few Professors, legally FSS is bound by the perks promised in IGG. For the few that want to keep their perk, FSS literally has no say in it and must continue to carry out the service. FSS is an American based entity and IGG is an American based company published in San Francisco. And thus, not Japanese, but American law is to be followed regarding IGG and FSS, and IGG law states our allegiance is obligated to that of our supporters in whatever service we promised.

Also, since TSA finished with giving us permission after laying down their many restrictions, those private agreements and conversations are documented in gmail and should it ever come to any big legal conundrum, The notice that has been on the FSS website for years now states that any legal matter or issue someone has with FSS will be had in the state of Oklahoma in our local district Oklahoma City. Meaning if Zun suddenly changes his mind and wants to sue FSS, then he has to come here, in our court to do it. And the argument would be as follows: Did you give them permission to make the game? Yes. Did you specify how they were to cancel the campaign? No. Did you specify in your guidelines that individuals cannot use crowd funding or investment methods? No. What is your claim? They went against the Doujin Spirit. Why didn't you warn them of that before the campaign? I didn't check my email. And at that point the case is over. The Gmail can be brought up as proof and the case will be closed.

As far as my understanding goes to in terms of Japanese culture. Personal agreements are powerful and his personal team and FSS have an agreement in writing electronically. So I doubt he will take action.

However if he does, there are many many other things that stack up against him. For example FSS gave Zun many opportunities (Also electronically documented through gmail) to have foresight in knowing that we plan to launch the campaign. We reasonably attempted to contact Zun through the email that Zun stated was best to contact him on his own website. Whether it be because he forgot about his email, or whether he chose to ignore it, in addition to the emails we sent, Touhou smash was making headlines on many articles before the campaign launched and to argue that he was still somehow unaware of the project is farfetched. Zun waited till after FSS made 5 or 6 attempts of contacting him through email, youtube, and twitter to finally send his copyright team to discuss things with us. The fact that he chose to ignore these attempts to host a discussion and opportunities to have avoided the whole problem stack very badly against him in American law.

In short, FSS and TSA have a personal agreement and acknowledgement of what the other is doing. The likelihood that TSA will take further action is very unlikely since the only requirement they have requested has been fulfilled.

The campaign has been canceled in most possible way you can cancel it, the perks and all content have been removed, and even if we wanted to continue the campaign there is no way publicity would let that work. So FSS has officially fulfilled their end of the bargain to TSA.

I don't think FSS is understanding any of this lol.

[Reu]

Honestly I couldn't have been bothered to continue that thread due to being busy.

But overall he doesn't seem to know the Doujin rules at all.

But I can respect him attempting to help his brother though I think that post might just make things worse

[Flandre5carlet]

The issue regarding the perks, refunding and cancellation has been also addressed on youtube and this is how Itohkuni responded:
-snip-
I don't think FSS is understanding any of this lol.

The more I see them talk - and I hope to be mistaken about that - the more it feels like they very well understand what's going on but act dumb on purpose to try and get things to go their way, or sweep issues under the rug. In my understanding it's fairly obvious that "cancelling the Indiegogo" also meant refunding the crowdfunded money.
I mean, they also basically just implied "we can do what we want and if ZUN wants to sue us we'll win anyway", and that's a terrifying thought considering the history of this project.

[Helepolis]

@ FlandreScarlet, They are very aware of what they are doing. Otherwise Saijee would've already showed up here trying to prove us wrong. But yea you know what they say: " Can't convince them? Confuse them "


To pull the long reply apart and why they aren't getting any of this, I'll explain based on the information given in this thread:

So here is the thing. When FSS talked to TSA and I asked them what the problem was and the only thing that they said was they wanted the campaign to be canceled. They actually did not specify any way whatsoever how the money that had already been collected should be handled. They wanted one thing, and one thing only, and that was to cancel the campaign.

FSS still didn't provide actual proof of the approval. They have been acting shady as hell about this. As if they are holding back information. Yet Saijee claimed he wasn't holding anything back. Sounds like poor lies to me.

Anyhow, in order to become as far out of the woods as possible. FSS decided to reimburse the donors even though TSA mentioned nothing of it. Also, we are encouraging and making reimbursement a primary option. I don't by any standards want to get into a legal battle with Zun.

You're already in a "legal battle". You're not complying with the guidelines. Ignorance?

However, I've talked to a few law student friends of mine and a few Professors, legally FSS is bound by the perks promised in IGG. For the few that want to keep their perk, FSS literally has no say in it and must continue to carry out the service. FSS is an American based entity and IGG is an American based company published in San Francisco. And thus, not Japanese, but American law is to be followed regarding IGG and FSS, and IGG law states our allegiance is obligated to that of our supporters in whatever service we promised.

A copyright claim from ZUN fixes all this.

Also, since TSA finished with giving us permission after laying down their many restrictions, those private agreements and conversations are documented in gmail and should it ever come to any big legal conundrum,

Also still no proof has been provided of the actual permission. Information is still being held back. We don't know what the agreement is, you could have misinterpret the actual message as well.

The notice that has been on the FSS website for years now states that any legal matter or issue someone has with FSS will be had in the state of Oklahoma in our local district Oklahoma City. Meaning if Zun suddenly changes his mind and wants to sue FSS, then he has to come here, in our court to do it. And the argument would be as follows: Did you give them permission to make the game? Yes. Did you specify how they were to cancel the campaign? No. Did you specify in your guidelines that individuals cannot use crowd funding or investment methods? No. What is your claim? They went against the Doujin Spirit. Why didn't you warn them of that before the campaign? I didn't check my email. And at that point the case is over. The Gmail can be brought up as proof and the case will be closed.

I think one of our law-members can reply on this part.

However if he does, there are many many other things that stack up against him. For example FSS gave Zun many opportunities (Also electronically documented through gmail) to have foresight in knowing that we plan to launch the campaign. We reasonably attempted to contact Zun through the email that Zun stated was best to contact him on his own website. Whether it be because he forgot about his email, or whether he chose to ignore it, in addition to the emails we sent, Touhou smash was making headlines on many articles before the campaign launched and to argue that he was still somehow unaware of the project is farfetched. Zun waited till after FSS made 5 or 6 attempts of contacting him through email, youtube, and twitter to finally send his copyright team to discuss things with us. The fact that he chose to ignore these attempts to host a discussion and opportunities to have avoided the whole problem stack very badly against him in American law.

Doesn't changes the fact Saijee launched the crowdfunding before the permission. It doesn't matter whether you have to wait 1000 years. No permission doesn't mean you have the right to continue and ignore ZUN. Which you did, countless times.

The campaign has been canceled in most possible way you can cancel it, the perks and all content have been removed, and even if we wanted to continue the campaign there is no way publicity would let that work. So FSS has officially fulfilled their end of the bargain to TSA.

The campaign hasn't been cancelled, because the thing is still on IGG. You're not cancelling it, you're letting the campaign end, cashing in the money then offering people the voluntary refund. That is the main problem being pressed.


PS: I am also picking up signals that Eastern people have noticed this as well. They are also wondering why the thing is still on IGG, despite the various tweets going around by Yonjin and such.


Edit: Yesterday on IRC also notice was dropped about FSS way of setting up the campaign. They said that any funding project with Flexible Funding is heavily frowned upon. No idea what the deal is with this but perhaps someone can explain it.

[Flandre5carlet]

As far as cancelling the Indiegogo goes, I believe I've read some time back in the thread (or some other place, maybe...) that Indiegogo does not give you an option to cancel a campaign if it has already received funds. I could be wrong on this. But even then, a copyright claim from TSA would solve all this, I'm fairly certain.

All I know is flexible funding means even if the campaign does not reach its goal, you cash in the money.

[JxMarik]

Saijee confirmed as TH14.5's final boss.
Uses rumors to control the western side of gensokyo.

More seriously...
After the miraculous autorisation they got from Shangai Alice (which we don't have any proof of yet), they're still trying to force things along their way.
No matter the japanese community call them arrogant and disgusting (animations aside)

Another miracle will not occur.

[Drake]

In indirect response to ItohKuni's post: Absolutely no. That wall is a misrepresentation of the situation.

Touhou is protected by various rights. You violate these rights by starting a funding campaign using ZUN's property, and intending to use the campaign as a point of distribution. You cannot claim ignorance to stuff apparently not explicitly present in the community guidelines, particularly since you did not have permission to make the game or start the campaign at all, before starting the campaign. Regardless of the permissions you may now have, you did not receive retroactive permission, and in fact were told to take down the campaign. This clearly communicates that you did not and do not have permission to launch the campaign, so claiming that "oh but he gave us permission" and "he didn't check his email so he didn't see us ask" is a solid defense whatsoever is unwarranted.

Touhou Project is not under Creative Commons or any similar license. As Yonjin told Saijee from the start, you do not seem to understand this difference. This is related to the guidelines on derivative works only on a social, informal level. You do not possess the rights, period. The derivative guidelines give freedoms, not restrict.

Moreover, simply stating that any case must be heard in your local court, just because, is ridiculous. While I am not aware of the specifics of law here, you are the ones violating rights. By the Berne convention, one would expect that as copyright laws from the country of origin are applied, you cannot merely assert that your conclusion is correct. By simply assuming you're correct here, you are digging your own grave in the dire case that serious legal action is taken.

Lastly, not to imply I think this is the case, obviously not; but FSS could have sent an email to ZUN, intentionally started an indiegogo campaign in violation of IP rights before a response was given, claim that ZUN was contacted, fulfill the campaign before a response was given with the knowledge of IGG's policies (which should be assumed), then once a response to continue the game but cancel the campaign was actually given, to then claim that they can no longer cancel the campaign or return funds and toss around that any potential legal action is against ZUN's favor because "he gave us permission to make the game" and "we can't cancel the campaign". This situation could easily be generated with malicious intent.

This argument, as well as the toy scenario they describe, is completely absurd. Both because it's completely invalid and because they're putting it out as though they're seriously thinking about legal repercussions.

[Tengukami]

If nothing else, that wall is one supremely passive-aggressive response to this whole thing...

But the part I still really don't get is: why would any Touhou "fan" engage in this kind of behavior with the creator of the series? The mind boggles.

[akj]

The issue regarding the perks, refunding and cancellation has been also addressed on youtube and this is how Itohkuni responded:
-snip-
I don't think FSS is understanding any of this lol.

What a nightmare.

FSS demonstrably has no respect for copyright laws. They're basically challenging Team Shanghai Alice to a showdown in court.
This is reminiscent of the White Canvas case, and we can tell that Team Shanghai Alice isn't afraid of stepping up to protect their copyrights when push comes to shove.
If it comes down to that, it won't be seen as Team Shanghai Alice vs FSS, it's gonna be seen as Japan vs Stupid Gaijins, which needless to say is terrible.

FSS has basically proved to be completely culturally insensitive by being so hard-handed in their approach to this matter.
Culturally, the Japanese are implicit communicators.
An explicit communicator assumes the listener is unaware of background information or related issues to the topic of discussion and provides it themselves.
The Japanese however assume the listener is well informed on the subject and minimises information relayed on the premise that listener will understand from implication.
FSS has taken the approach of assuming that anything that explicitly mentioned, is free for all. They have proven to be incredibly selfish in their actions.
FSS is evidently sorely unprepared to do business with the Japanese.

ZUN intentionally left the guidelines vague to not stifle creativity in the community with bureaucratic red tape, but FSS is just abusing ZUN's niceness.

This is very sad for us all.


*Edit:
Helepolis, sorry if I'm being dumb, but who is Itohkuni to FSS, and where did you find Itohkuni's response from?

*Edit2:
Itohkuni is Kuni Higuchi of FSS.

[Drake]

Furthermore, I don't buy the excuse that FSS is legally obligated to deliver Perks and not refund if "asked" by individual contributors:

Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). [...] If any Campaign Owner is unable to fulfill any of its commitments to Contributors (including delivering any Perks), the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions.

Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner.

Meanwhile, FSS is currently presenting the situation as: they will refund the contributions by default, unless asked in the email they send out to specifically keep the Perk and not be refunded. However, I think that this obfuscates the truth and implies "well, it's ok if you still want the Perk and for us to keep the money, just ask us", which you would expect many people to go for (and from the campaign comments, people are eating up that rhetoric). Instead, what should be said is that they've been asked to take down the campaign by representatives for Team Shanghai Alice and refund all contributions, and that if the contributor wants to legally enforce FSS to fulfill their Perk or offer something similar, that they have little choice but to comply. Meanwhile, fulfilling their Perk does not seem to preclude refunding their contributions, either.

[Helepolis]

*Edit:
Helepolis, sorry if I'm being dumb, but who is Itohkuni to FSS, and where did you find Itohkuni's response from?

No worries. It was also asked on IRC:

[09:40:24] <Helepolis> dont know how directly it links
[09:40:26] <Helepolis> but hold on
[09:42:00] <Helepolis> https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs
[09:42:03] <Keine-tan> Title: All comments on The Whole Story of TSSB and ZUN - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
[09:42:08] <Helepolis> find :  Senior Maj 17 hours ago
[09:42:14] <Helepolis> then expand the replies


edit:
In the mean while, Saijee continues to happy answer every bit of thing on youtube/facebook but ignores the questions/comments here.

I thought he said to Tengukami he wasn't "lazy" but just "tired". Also thought that he was a punctual person, who has to respond to everything. (Yonjin Tweet incident).

* Helepolis shrugs.

[Flandre5carlet]

You know what really bothers me about all this? Some of the Youtube/Facebook comments in support of FSS that are essentially saying ZUN's rules are dumb and he's a xenophobic asshole.

It's already nice enough he allows people to use his intellectual property to develop and even sell fanworks provided they simply abide by the guidelines in place, yet there's all these entitled idiots thinking they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they please with SOMEONE ELSE's intellectual property.

And then they wonder why the Western fanbase doesn't have a very good image.

[akj]

-snip-

Thanks Helepolis. I figured who Itohkuni is based on the information you provided.

His profile image depicted the red shark, as seen in their videos, and with that information combined with what was supplied under the "About Us" page from their website, it is evident that Itohkuni is Kuni Higuchi, the oldest of the three brothers of FSS, under a different alias.

[Spotty Len]

I can understand that dealing with criticism or intricate questions can be time-consuming or tiring for him, but I think it's far more productive than answering to every little comment he gets. I mean, he doesn't have to come here, it just seems a little unfair to the dedicated people that have been trying to help him.

If FSS can clear out everything without having to rely on anybody from here, good for them. I just hope this project doesn't explode in their hands.

You know what really bothers me about all this? Some of the Youtube/Facebook comments in support of FSS that are essentially saying ZUN's rules are dumb and he's a xenophobic asshole.

Pertinence of Youtube/Facebook comments are like 1:100. Those two sites should never be a place to discuss anything important.

[Colticide]

I really shouldn't be interacting with the FB users, the ones who blindly follow FSS show they have no idea what the issues are. I see comments like "We will follow you no matter what!" and just nonsense one like "Don't worry about the one who are angry about this, them being angry just shows you are in the right in all of this!" what? NO! If people are angry there is a reason to be angry, especially since it's also Doujin members getting angry. It just feels like FSS is trying to only interact with those who have absolute dedication to them.

Warning: Rant
You know how all of this could have been avoided FSS? WAITING, being patient and not trying to hurry everything up by annoyingly send 6 emails and then make the IGG campaign out of haste to get it done. You claim ignorance but you have no right to that as an excuse because your a freaking developer, you need to know the legal system for this stuff. Stop making excuses, why is it so hard to follow doujin guideline? Is because you want to sell the game? Is selling this game that dang important? I thought money meant nothing, if so then refund everyone no matter what they have to say. Your creating a situation where your still able to get money from backers from them simply refusing and in turn break doujin rules.
End Rant

I don't get this is so hard for them to understand.

[Firestorm29]

Tried post this earlier, but going to try again.

Basically, I'm very concerned for FSS at this point. First problem is typically with illicit activity such as hacking, typically it's considered a federal case, not local. This is due to the very essence of the internet being not centralized in one location, but across the country, therefore is considered interstate. I'm pretty sure that FSS's hometown is going to be a moot point since part of the case will no doubt include something online. Otherwise, we'd have an answer for who to charge sales tax for online purchases.

Of course, this assumes that the case is actually held in the US. Problem is, the copyright and and plantiff, which would be TSA, is in Japan. Basically, there's a chance that this could end up like those cases when people are drug to the US to face charges, but in this case, FSS would be drug to Japan and turn into an international incident.  My experiences in Yokosuka with that Navy has seen numerous cases where the only reason why some sailors faced a captain (or even an admiral in one very dreary weekend) instead of the host country was the status of armed forces agreement with Japan that stated those cases are handled by the US rather than Japan. In a country without that agreement, like China, you do something wrong, 99% chance your screwed. FSS doesn't have this status agreement to protect them and the only thing that could save them would be a diplomat agreement. FSS, if you read this, trust me, international incidents are very ugly and never, ever end well.

Then there's the problem of their argument. The problem being they didn't obtain permission before starting. The crux of some major cases is about if you had permission to proceed before using a work for your own. This is why Orphaned Works, works in which you can't ID the owner, is such a big deal. Because without permission or not receiving permission is before starting is infringement, it makes it impossible to do things such as using a song you like but can't because the person who wrote it fell off the face of the earth.

The fact is, FSS is pretty screwed if they really are trying to lawyer up. I wish I could quote cases and go into detail, but I only had 15 minutes to barf up a quick writeup of alot of issues. They really need to come to their senses that even their best case scenarios could still result in thousands of dollars of debt. If I was a donor and saw that they were planning some sort of legal battle right now, I'd be beating FSS' down down demanding a refund while they're still on the radar.

[Alcoraiden]

Youtube and Facebook aren't exactly the holy grail of good comments on the internet...it's expected we'll get strange people there I guess.

Is ZUN showing signs of taking legal action or are we now just discussing hypotheticals?

[Flandre5carlet]

Youtube and Facebook aren't exactly the holy grail of good comments on the internet...it's expected we'll get strange people there I guess.

Is ZUN showing signs of taking legal action or are we now just discussing hypotheticals?

Hypothetical, because of what one of them said on YouTube, see above Helepolis's comment.