After literally not sleeping for 30 hours straight, THE CROWED FUNDING CAMPAIGN HAS LAUNCHED!!!! Help us raise funds to build more characters at a faster rate! Vote for your favorite characters, insure you get a copy upon release, GET YOUR FAVORITE MAIDEN 100% CONFIRMED! The choices are endless! https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/touhou-super-smash-battles/x/3932426Was noted on IRC and good to consider. Isn't this going to backfire because of the terms for creating derived work based on ZUN's fan creation guidelines? Or did you already conducted research on that part?
Yeah, I think that starting up a crowdfunding campaign before receiving permission from ZUN, even with recent changes regarding his games and fan games on other platforms, seems like a poor idea. Even saying that you contacted him really doesn't mean anything, because he could have very easily ignored/overlooked it.
We, and Team Shanghai Alice, have concluded that Kickstarter is not an appropriate method regarding production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project. The reason for this is because receiving funds before production is considered an investment, and a method like this can not yet be recognized with the production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project.So yea, that is pretty much the deal here like Totaku pointed out. So receiving any form of investment for and during production is conflicting with the fan creation rules. This is why ZUN is allowing derived work as long as it is done with your own resources. Help from friends/people or forum members in terms of assistance (development) remain free from this.
The Touhou card game looked amazing, and I'm sad it just kind of...died. This looks SO WONDERFUL. Please don't just trash it if this goes south.
I know about it, but I think that people should be able to get help with things like "having professional programs." Saying "just go back and use your own money" like it's a badge of honor kind of rankles me there.I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. ZUN holds, regardless whether you conflicting with his guidelines or not, to claim copyright owner on this work. Meaning he can demand to seize any fan-game, derived work or Touhou related things in production or on sale/release. It doesn't matter whether they are free or paid. If he thinks you're being disrespectful to his already flexible fan creation guidelines it would only negatively impact your reputation and he might act upon it.
A lot of Touhou fan games don't look this good or show this much promise. I've played a lot. I can't say all of them are the most...professional-game-like. This one really has potential if you ask me. Surely it's possible to finagle what the money is technically/legally going to in order to make this fly. (Say, "please donate so we can buy Maya," not "please donate so we can make this game.")
Also, it's a Western game, and I want to encourage a Western presence in the doujin community.
I think you're misunderstanding the situation here. ZUN holds, regardless whether you conflicting with his guidelines or not, to claim copyright owner on this work. Meaning he can demand to seize any fan-game, derived work or Touhou related things in production or on sale/release. It doesn't matter whether they are free or paid. If he thinks you're being disrespectful to his already flexible fan creation guidelines it would only negatively impact your reputation and he might act upon it.
We too want Touhou Smash Brothers to be a final product and played by fans, but Saijee needs to start thinking like a professional here. You're enthusiasm is positive, but it isn't helping him nor this game on getting to be finished. You don't get to decide whether this game is released or not, ZUN does.
The only thing we know is that an email was sent to Zun while this is up, so risky indeed. If Zun does give his OK, then I'm fine with it. I however will not donate, it's the same as pre ordering, I'm not willing to put money forth for a product that's not out yet or finished.
Over $1000 seems huge for a character, I do however understand that making a character take a huge amount of time and is a lot of work, but that's a house payment! That's almost 2 months rent for me, only those that are willing to put that much money into it really should be considered investors and not just donators.
What worries me the most is that he's attempting to release a fangame for a doujin series based on the mechanics of a party fighter on the Nintendo eShop. But yeah, crowdfunding this game (especially without ZUN's okay on the matter) also seems like bad idea based on what everyone has been saying.
Let's be absolutely clear hear, I never actually said that this game was going to be on the Wii U.
I happen to be a Wii U Dev that is intending to make a Wii U game that uses the game pad, a remake of glass wing, but at the time happen to be making a Touhou game, and testing it using the Game Cube Controller in anticipation that it might be able to get on the Wii U too.
As for the campaign thing, I'm no fool. I've dug very deep on that Kickstarter, even going as far as talking to the people who were running the campaign. There is another side to that story that is not clear on the surface, I'll talk about it more in my video today.
I've thought this all the way through, I have a plan.
Let's be absolutely clear hear, I never actually said that this game was going to be on the Wii U.
I happen to be a Wii U Dev that is intending to make a Wii U game that uses the game pad, a remake of glass wing, but at the time happen to be making a Touhou game, and testing it using the Game Cube Controller in anticipation that it might be able to get on the Wii U too.
As for the campaign thing, I'm no fool. I've dug very deep on that Kickstarter, even going as far as talking to the people who were running the campaign. There is another side to that story that is not clear on the surface, I'll talk about it more in my video today.
I've thought this all the way through, I have a plan.
News sites were claiming it will be on the e-shop, and that just raised some red flags for me.
Ah ok. News sites were claiming it will be on the e-shop, and that just raised some red flags for me. I look forward to seeing your video and hopefully it clarifies some things.
How about the character choice teirs? I just want my questions answered before I decide to go for it to get Tewi in the game (posted them on here and the indiegogo comments)
EDIT: Also, I pla to buy glasswing this weekend. It looks really good! You really made that in a month?! It took me 2 months to make touhou pong, and couldn't get everything I wanted in it.
Oh that's you?
We have no list of characters. A common comment I keep reading is "Can't wait to see Marisa" but she is in fact not even conceptualized to even be a playable character anymore than.... say Wriggler or even Rinno.
I have not even thought about what to do with Yuuka, at the moment the only thing on my mind is Tenshi.
Oh that's you?
We have no list of characters. A common comment I keep reading is "Can't wait to see Marisa" but she is in fact not even conceptualized to even be a playable character anymore than.... say Wriggler or even Rinno.
I have not even thought about what to do with Yuuka, at the moment the only thing on my mind is Tenshi.
Yea equal chance.
Thats pretty cool idea. Still curious on if someone buys a character in if they get to design any parts of that character, or is it just to secure a guy in. If you are waiting to answer that un your video thats cool :)
I'll probably be at least updating to 150 to get possibly Hakurei Miko skin for Reimu. I doubt she has a chance or is eligable to be playable anyway.
You've asked this question like 10 times between the Indiegogo and here. The lack of answer seems both deliberate and reasonable because it's possible they haven't figured it out yet.
Actually it's more just me being way too busy answering all comments between youtube and facebook all day.
Yea you get to give us an outline for the character, though it will not dictate how we actually work her in, it will influence it to a good degree.
For people wondering why each maiden is more expensive than the next.
To be frank, paying people to animate and voice a character for 135+ animations would defiantly be more than $2,500. I simply made the first 2 less because I wanted to give people a chance, and it also encourages people who really want it to do it sooner.
For people wondering why each maiden is more expensive than the next.
To be frank, paying people to animate and voice a character for 135+ animations would defiantly be more than $2,500. I simply made the first 2 less because I wanted to give people a chance, and it also encourages people who really want it to do it sooner.
I don't really get why you'd have to pay people to work on a fan game at this point in time; you basically make it sound like you're going to hire employees to work for you, rather than take people in that are as motivated and invested in the project as you... Or something like that. Maybe I have a flawed view of how other doujin works are made.
Seriously, complaints about the characters' faces are pretty much everywhere! Youtube even has someone saying s/he came to respect ZUN's art style after seeing these models!
At least get the face done right. Someone on Youtube did suggest ways to make it better.
Okay you mentioned the thing about art style so I thought i'd voice my opinion and thoughts. The reason some people think the characters look so strange is because you have a face that looks somewhere in between barbie and a real life face. While this isn't a bad thing you then have anime-ish hair framing that face. This makes the faces look very strange due to the fact that the faces have a clear element of realism to them causing the models to fall somewhere in the uncanny valley. It doesn't help that the eyes appear straight black at a glance.
If you slim down the jaw and cheeks just a bit more and give the features a slightly more cartoonish look to them it will help.
What that Youtube suggestion said:
There are also suggestions of using MMD designs.
But the MMD things has been talked about to death in topic early onAnd the conclusion was?
And the conclusion was?
At least get the face done right. Someone on Youtube did suggest ways to make it better.
Ye-- no, that's not what he said.S/he clearly is talking about the face.
Okay you mentioned the thing about art style so I thought i'd voice my opinion and thoughts. The reason some people think the characters look so strange is because you have a face that looks somewhere in between barbie and a real life face. While this isn't a bad thing you then have anime-ish hair framing that face. This makes the faces look very strange due to the fact that the faces have a clear element of realism to them causing the models to fall somewhere in the uncanny valley. It doesn't help that the eyes appear straight black at a glance.
If you slim down the jaw and cheeks just a bit more and give the features a slightly more cartoonish look to them it will help.
So for posterity, to summarize what is said in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBh8JtxShmk), the GS System card game Kickstarter had not actually received a shutdown order from ZUN. Rather, they faced two problems:
they were unable to find a suitable distribution channel;
and they were unable to continue communication with ZUN using only Google Translate.
Hmm, I wonder how they managed to commission those artworks from Japanese artists if they have no access to English-Japanese translators at all, but I guess there's an established system for that.
We, and Team Shanghai Alice, have concluded that Kickstarter is not an appropriate method regarding production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project. The reason for this is because receiving funds before production is considered an investment, and a method like this can not yet be recognized with the production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project.
Yeah I'm still wondering about that quote, as it has yet to be explained. Though, making a claim like "ZUN didn't actually shut down the project" in public where GS can easily show up and be like "no you're wrong" is ballsy, so I expect there are at least a few grains of truth.
Also, I was the one who put in for Shinki, because she never ever will get a real presence in a fan game unless the makers happen to be fans or...well, this happens, and a fan gets to pitch in. And now that Yuuka, Shinki, and Shikieiki are all in the game...my life is complete :P
Since about an hour ago. I split the cost with a friend so we could get a character in that we both really like and wouldn't have had a chance otherwise.
Don't take it out of context, but I love you! Being able to see Shikieki in action will be a dream come true! Thank you!
With five spots left (including the randaom fan vote draw), if I had my way entirely, I'd pick Aya, Reisen, Miko, Iku, and Kasen.
Your all wrong! The only important character for this game is Beerko! Beerko for TSSB 2015!Entire roster is Beerko. I second this. Fund it.
Here's what I'm thinking the fighting styles of the new confirms will be:
Tewi: Mostly similar to Wario, G&W, and Pac-Man, a character with high air mobility but lacking KO power on air moves. She lacks dense danmaku, but can endlessly frustrate enemies with traps until she can land a decisive hammer blow. Her good luck means her attacks often induce tripping or guardbreaks...
Well, in my dreams I'd have the entire roster, but we all know how technically doable that is.
Honestly, Tewi with luck-based moves would work great if it was restricted in the same way as G&W hammer. It has the same range every time, and can't get the same result twice within a certain number of uses. If you get hit by such a slow move, you pretty much deserve whatever the RNG throws at you.
Tripping moves aren't bad either: Smash 4 often had trip properties on moves that were already fast enough to chain into themselves, so it wasn't really about random chance. It was more about spamming the move until you see them trip so that you can combo into a grab or something similar.
Murasa because archors are a sweetass weapon, especially combined with ghostliness. I've always felt Murasa would do absolutely great in a fighter, but so far hasn't had the chance to show that yet (Ichirin too, but she was in HM).
Shinmyoumaru because I feel that's the best choise if we want someone from DDC, since she's most versatile, having interesting powers combined with a weapon. Seija would do better as an assist trophy, I think.
Yeah I'm still wondering about that quote, as it has yet to be explained. Though, making a claim like "ZUN didn't actually shut down the project" in public where GS can easily show up and be like "no you're wrong" is ballsy, so I expect there are at least a few grains of truth.Well, according to video IIRC, the reason he said that was because he had talked to GS and gotten clarification.
Tewi: Mostly similar to Wario, G&W, and Pac-Man, a character with high air mobility but lacking KO power on air moves. She lacks dense danmaku, but can endlessly frustrate enemies with traps until she can land a decisive hammer blow. Her good luck means her attacks often induce tripping or guardbreaks...
Hey uh Mr. Sajee. I just want to ask whether the weather system is in this game? Just like what SWR and UNL did. I know its complicated but yeah just wondering.
I don't mind things that are "lucky" but I feel like we will do what we can to avoid anything that is truly "random"I think that works too. Randomness is terrible in fighting games.
We cannot have tripping because we don't have prat fall animations. We can however have instant knock downs, such like what happens when Sakuya D-air's someone who is standing.
I don't mind things that are "lucky" but I feel like we will do what we can to avoid anything that is truly "random"
Dedede's hammer tho :V
Dedede's hammer tho :VY'know, if Shinmyoumaru gets in, I'd like to see her get Kirby's Smash 4 hammer (with dark energy instead of fire). The fake Miracle Mallet in ISC was a charge move, and the Sm4sh hammer's Japanese name is
Hi Guys,I'd say... zoning/stage control specialist? Give her a poison cloud as her main projectile - large, slow, transcendant priority. One of her moves might have extremely long hitstun, while another debuffs the target's speed. Her Down Spell creates a large poison cloud in a fixed position. She might also have the ability to spawn suzuran flowers as "mines" similar to Snake. And of course a lot of her moves inflict damage over time, like Lip's Stick. She needs to get into melee to deliver a KO, but running from her is difficult.
I just secured Medicine a slot (and will be eating ramen noodles for all of the forseeable future) and I was wondering what moveset ideas you guys had? I'm still ruminating... Would love to hear your ideas.
Granted, it's nowhere near an official response of any kind, but unless the devs can get something worked out, I imagine that at the very least the crownfunding part will be called off.Let's hope the damage will be minimum. But honestly this was to be expected response eventually. I am kind of iffy also why Saijee never proper answered my question when I had asked: "Why did you launch this funding before getting approval". The only post out there was: "I thought this thoroughly through".
I had no idea before this project that the doujin community was so passionate about starting insanely small-scale, no outside help, etc etc. o.O I've heard more "it's not true to Doujin Culture" or some such in the past few days than I've really ever heard...There is a reason why people on this forum use the 'STOP HELEPOLIS' joke. If you're unaware: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2932.msg129725.html#msg129725 explains it. I had released a script long long ago on the internet and niconico video and got burned as well for doing that I was young and foolish back then hence why I am approaching my current game with extreme care.
I think there is just some fundamental disconnect between me and this culture. I just can't really fathom why it's a poor idea to allow people to give you monetary help in the beginning. It feels like a pride thing, or elitism, like you're not a "real" doujin artist unless you front all the money yourself (even if you don't have it).In my opinion, that is a moral discussion between west and east, though that is only half the story/problem. What we're dealing with this incident is copyright and possible breaching ZUN's guidelines for fanwork. We still need to wait what he has to say and thus speculations are kind of void at this point. It can be elitism or pride but Japanese people in general protect ZUN's wishes. He could've simply said: "screw you all, no derived work allowed." and Touhou project would be forgotten very quickly or something. But he didn't and which is probably why people can react upset when people "break the rules".
Also, the prevailing attitude seems to be that Japan has the "real" fan culture and we have to obey their general pattern of doing things. (I'm trying to make this distinct from "obeying the artist" which I am not talking about with this point.) I'm not sure this is a good way to look at it, since fans are quite clearly an international thing, and different countries and subgroups have different opinions on how to go about such things. Isn't this a good thing, this kind of diversity?
I think there is just some fundamental disconnect between me and this culture. I just can't really fathom why it's a poor idea to allow people to give you monetary help in the beginning. It feels like a pride thing, or elitism, like you're not a "real" doujin artist unless you front all the money yourself (even if you don't have it).
Also, the prevailing attitude seems to be that Japan has the "real" fan culture and we have to obey their general pattern of doing things. (I'm trying to make this distinct from "obeying the artist" which I am not talking about with this point.) I'm not sure this is a good way to look at it, since fans are quite clearly an international thing, and different countries and subgroups have different opinions on how to go about such things. Isn't this a good thing, this kind of diversity?
In my opinion, that is a moral discussion between west and east, though that is only half the story/problem. What we're dealing with this incident is copyright and possible breaching ZUN's guidelines for fanwork. We still need to wait what he has to say and thus speculations are kind of void at this point. It can be elitism or pride but Japanese people in general protect ZUN's wishes. He could've simply said: "screw you all, no derived work allowed." and Touhou project would be forgotten very quickly or something. But he didn't and which is probably why people can react upset when people "break the rules".
About monetary help: How do you think people start up a company? For free? If they receive external monetary help, it is always in form of investment and thus there is obvious a shareholding relationship. Like: "I'll grand you 10k investment money to startup your company but I will demand 10k back eventually + 2% of your net profit for the upcoming year" or something (I am bad at this).
-snip-
The Favorite Maiden perks were insanely effective at boosting funding. Otherwise people are dropping in 20-50 bucks, which while awesome, will not boost this project to its full stretch goal potential. Granted, if you think the stretch goals are unreasonable, that's a whole other discussion, but the perks did an awesome job of providing initial money and also showing people that there was very powerful interest.I don't mind the perks. My concern is that they exposed the idea that adding more and more expensive perks is a dangerous thing to play around with. I actually think having them meet that $10,000 is a significant feat for Western Touhou community & Western Touhou derivative works, because many of us actually opened our wallet to support for the things we love, and not just rely on piracy. I'll be honest. I doubted this community and questioned the crowdfunding will become successful, because I had a prejudice that they will only support the things they will get for free, and wouldn't want to go about spend money, especially ~1,000$ or above just for some perks. I was wrong. By 265 funders (and growing).
Last, this kinda goes back to my point about different cultures -- why do we have to do it the Japan way? Touhou is bigger than Japan now. It has fandom all over the world. Why is Japan the paradigm we have to use, unless ZUN straight out declares it to be the case?Yes. Touhou is bigger than Japan. But, Japanese want to contain Touhou within Japan. The world wants to exercise Touhou, but Touhou license belongs to Japan. Most of money being earned by Touhou doujin happens only in Japan. We, outside Japan, either conform to Japanese dogma and hope to survive, or don't. That's the problem with current guideline with Touhou fandom to exercise their creativity by making our own Touhou derivative works. Trust me that this isn't the first, and certainly won't be the last.
And I do agree that ZUN should go ahead and write up a guideline for this once and for all, since crowdfunding took off after he wrote his last general "terms of service" kind of document. It'd be super helpful and then we wouldn't all to pester the snot out of him. :P
The way I see where this is going is two ways. One, either ZUN acknowledges this and improves his guideline in favor of worldwide creativity to flourish (this is why I mentioned Guideline needs improvement for "Online Touhou Convention"), or Western fans eventually gets fed up for being cockblocked every time and making so little money for them to feel self-worth, ignore ZUN's guidelines, and make whatever the hell they want, and sell them however the hell they want, and declare: "this is parody. Any law in the civilized world cannot punish me, including yours". I sincerely hope the situation doesn't go to the latter. (Or maybe it already has. *cough* *Bandcamp* *cough*)I'm curious what exactly you mean when you mention Bandcamp. I see people selling Touhou arranges there, is that technically not allowed?
I'm curious what exactly you mean when you mention Bandcamp. I see people selling Touhou arranges there, is that technically not allowed?
We still have many many options to make this all work out. Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.
We still have many many options to make this all work out. Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.
- ZUN guidelines stuff - (omitted for overview)ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.
We still have many many options to make this all work out. Despite how much drama this is getting, I'm still confident that this situation is not out of control yet.Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?
ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.
Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?
Honestly, it feels like either ignorance or impatience to me. Or a combination of both. That is why this drama occurred (Not really drama, just more like unwanted backfiring for no reason at all). I am sure that everybody here has supported Touhou Smash so far and we all want to see it getting finished.
I just think you missed a great opportunity in charming the Eastern Touhou Fans by rushing things. Which is really really unnecessary.
It sounds like he tried to get in contact with him and waited over a month for a response, but heard nothing back. Perhaps this was the only way to get his attention?
You make this sound like this drama was caused on purpose.
ZUN also clearly states that anything unknown or not covered is subject to sending him a mail.I hold confidence that his issue is with the idea of Touhou on Wii U. No body really knows yet. But Like I said before, that is one a jarring bit of misinformation.
Again, was it really that hard to wait for ZUN to reply first before launching the crowdfunding project?
Honestly, it feels like either ignorance or impatience to me. Or a combination of both. That is why this drama occurred (Not really drama, just more like unwanted backfiring for no reason at all). I am sure that everybody here has supported Touhou Smash so far and we all want to see it getting finished.
I just think you missed a great opportunity in charming the Eastern Touhou Fans by rushing things. Which is really really unnecessary.
こんにちは 私は東方大乱闘を作成した者です。この文に書かれている情報が少し不確かなようなので上海アリス幻楽団のどなたかfromsoysauce@gmail.comに連絡を頂けないでしょうか？Judging from this passage, you have some knowledge in Japanese, but it will not be enough to leave a favorable impression on a Japanese speaker, not to mention helping you negotiate business terms in Japanese. I hope you can find help from a translator proficient enough to do that.
Judging from this passage, you have some knowledge in Japanese, but it will not be enough to leave a favorable impression on a Japanese speaker, not to mention helping you negotiate business terms in Japanese. I hope you can find help from a translator proficient enough to do that.
I mean all that sincerely. (And sorry, I'm not a proficient English-Japanese translator; there are quite a few people on this forum who know more Japanese than me.)
The way things seem to be playing out right now lead me further to believe that it's next to impossible for the western fanbase to gain any traction in actually contributing in a meaningful way to Touhou fanworks. People are just too spread out, there's a language barrier between east and west, and a difference in cultures, resulting in other alternatives being shot down. Maybe some music circles could have a shot at still being successful, but beyond that...I just don't know. I hate to have a defeatist attitude about this, but the cards just seem completely stacked against the west.
But it is true that music groups have a better chance, but thats also because they have been doing longer then the ones making the games have been.
The double fine thing is a reason I don't give money to big name studios. They do not know how to spend their money wisely and really should be able to fund these themselves. I only give to smaller indie things, unless I really like the campany, like the guys who did Little witch academia for the second one. They aren't big but they have done other stuff. Also Way Forward because I love those guys too much and they onlive live by making games for others, and Shantae wouldn't have been made otherwise.
Music groups have lots of advantages, for one this is probably how most western Touhou arranges I have heard were made:
[nsfw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E57SnVgjbvk[/nsfw]
In short, this isn't just my game, it's not just From Soy Sauce's game, it's *our* game, as a community.
If it weren't Touhou, you definitely could've gone through with it, but you probably wouldn't have made so much in so little time.
This doesn't sit well with me, it reminds me of how youtubers give their audience a nickname and gives the viewers a sense of community when in reality it just gives those kinds of viewers who are into that a feeling that the one making the videos are obligated to and a responsibility to them.If that's how you look at it, go ahead. A content creator of any sort is nothing without their followers.
While for a game yes we have the right to a working product, but grouping everyone in a community for a game that isn't out yet feels like string pulling.
%100 agree.
If it weren't Touhou, you definitely could've gone through with it, but you probably wouldn't have made so much in so little time.We are still going to go through with this, the game will be made no matter what.
If that's how you look at it, go ahead. A content creator of any sort is nothing without their followers.
Do you honestly think I'm just trying to get a pretty penny?
We are still going to go through with this, the game will be made no matter what.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with making an fan-work crowed funding campaign for anything. Such was the case for Super Mario Warfare among other projects.
Third: since I didn't get a response for some time, I wanted to show that there is a demand for this project.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with making an fan-work crowed funding campaign for anything. Such was the case for Super Mario Warfare among other projects.Actually, there kind of is something wrong, especially if you don't have permission/rights. The only one off the top of my head that's gone through is the River City Ransom remake, because they actually worked out everything with the rights' holder ahead of time. Every other unauthorized Kickstarter was cancelled. Also, the Super Mario Warfare game took out all the copyrighted characters, if I remember correctly, and that didn't even deliver in the end.
There is that odd feeling that bigger studios should be able to use their own money, but why do they need a publisher in the first place? It's because those studios don't have the money to make it themselves unless your also a publisher as well as a developer.(best one I can think of is SquareEnix [BTW also a Japanese company], though they have expressed interest in crowdfunding themselves but Squeenix would be the eyes on the project to make sure those games get done and do what is promised, but since this hasn't been done before it has some negativity behind it.) We see how expensive it can be, one fighting game character is expensive thanks to Lab 0 giving us information on what all the expenses go into. A lot of good games have come from it too, but sadly I feel for wayforward, they have a publisher but they never get the funding they need or the help, Majesco needs to die for their horrid attitude towards their developers. (Gaah again I'm sorry! I don't get to talk about this stuff with people!)
For what it's worth, Ruw tweeted that even though they were mistaken about the game going to be on the Wii U, he still thought the crowdfunding bit was the bigger foul.
Actually, there kind of is something wrong, especially if you don't have permission/rights. The only one off the top of my head that's gone through is the River City Ransom remake, because they actually worked out everything with the rights' holder ahead of time. Every other unauthorized Kickstarter was cancelled. Also, the Super Mario Warfare game took out all the copyrighted characters, if I remember correctly, and that didn't even deliver in the end.Remind me, but wasn't MLP: Fighting is Magic also crowdfunded or was that pulled before that happened? I don't remember.
I think that the anti-crowdfunding feeling in japan really has to do with how different the feelings of indie developers are between the 2 countries.Correct me if wrong but Indie development != Doujin development. This isn't just a East vs West issue, but also method-approach.
That people will start expecting the kind of speed and quality that comes from having a large amount of resources and people.Hey, doesn't that sound like ... every major commercialized big-name game developer ever?
I think N-Forza is talking about this tweet: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/555585455027023873
I'm having trouble understanding what the replies are saying though.
Correct me if wrong but Indie development != Doujin development. This isn't just a East vs West issue, but also method-approach.
Doujin = hobby activity, self-paid, circles, aimed for selling through own channels or events (Reitaisai/Ket)
Indie = is usually (crowd)funded or self-paid, company structures, aim for earning money (steam / platforms).
ZUN enforces Doujin rules on Touhou. Recent PS4/Vita Doujin development will extend this rule exclusively for the said platform. ZUN grants no room for Indie methods afaik.
Edit:
@ Alcoraiden, Ye he is indeed quoting the general sound here. And if you didn't notice. This thread has been having over 30 guests for the last few hours.
I will just echo everything zferolie said, with a few other things.
This really does look like a big cultural divide here. Japan doesn't like the idea of outside-funded doujins and perhaps think it sounds greedy; we think it's a sign of bucking the corporate system and enabling the little guy. I hope we can clarify that, and that a discussion can be had, and even if people don't change any minds on either side, *the dialogue happening* is an accomplishment first off. Slow and steady wins this race for anyone involved.
Saijee -- you really need to take initiative. Don't drop a single tweet and wait. Go talk to the other people in this conversation on the Japan side. Actively post about the fact that the Wii U thing is a misconception. Make sure your voice gets heard. One little line will get drowned; you have to actively start this conversation. "The ball is in their court" will not work now. It especially seems like Ruw is someone who ZUN listens to and who should be spoken to. But there was a list earlier, so listen to that. Also keep on top of news -- Helepolis posted a link you will really want to see and address. You have to be proactive and cut down the misinformation before it spreads.
I disagree that ZUN has an obligation to his Japanese fans over anyone else. Like I said, and like ZUN is figuring out, this fandom is international. There's nothing about the Japanese fans other than numbers that make them inherently better in any way. Assuming there is comes dangerously close to the "primary/secondary fan" kind of trope that we wrinkle our noses at here.
Sedrife: It's kind of weird that ZUN has a "no response" kind of behavior but that he asks us to ask permission. You really can't have isolation and discussion at the same time. It's...contradictory. That's strange of him to do.
Forza: Kickstarter is way more intense than Indiegogo about its campaigns. Perhaps that will be an advantage here? Not sure.
Colticide: I think the point isn't to impress ZUN with money. The point is to show him how many people, especially Western folks who he now knows are a big thing since AWA, really want this to happen. We're showing him we have presence and we are enthusiastic about his universe, his game, and fan works based on those.
"As far as this "impatience" and "ignorance" and "immature " thing you are alluding to goes..." Yeah I thought that was approaching some name-calling there.
Flandre: I'm abusing Google Translate so don't trust me here but the second comment with a link to our thread seems to be accusing us of overconfidence/arrogance about how we think we can get the game done anyway even if this indiegogo falls through or if ZUN objects or something? It's my best guess, but we have actual folks who understand actual Japanese here so don't quote me ever on that.
I'm still chalking a lot of this up to bias against western fandom.
Are they really aiming to make money on this? It sounds like they want this extra funding to rush the game along, not to pad their wallets. And every doujin circle sells their stuff, so that can't really count...
So is there any possible way for this to aim to be doujin activity while using "indie ways"?
I'm pretty sure the goal of this project isn't money.
Spotty, that is indeed the main question being asked here. And the only person who can answer this is ZUN himself.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there the possibility that ZUN doesn't want crowd funded derivates because he fears that the incredibly massive amounts of cash this garners will lead to a product that's "too professional", to the point that it overshadows his own games? If I remember correctly, the reason he explicitly states something along the lines of "no for-profit anime" is that he doesn't want those to become the face of the Touhou Project, because we all know that's what's going to happen ^_^ . I'm beginning to think that this is what he fears, that eventually your game (which also happens an overseas game) will gain too much popularity due to the greater budget, and by extension, quality of various game assets.
Once again, I have no idea what he thinks of this in the first place, but based on the reasons mentioned above, I have some degree of certainty that he holds a bit of fear that a crowd funded game will overshadow the "traditional" lower-budget doujin games released in Japan.
Perhaps you should go the route mentioned in someone's earlier post: release a "lite" version with a few characters and stages, then add on to it as necessary, preferably with the profits you get from the initially released game. That's just a suggestion, so don't take it seriously if that's not what your plans are.
Hm. I highly doubt that would be the case if only because Smashers aren't nearly so broad in appeal and popularity as an anime series/movie would be. But hey, who knows.
My wild-assed guess is that ZUN worries that smaller doujin groups will be pushed out by people who are garnering huge amounts of money from large groups, so that crowdfunding will start to make "do it yourself" tiny groups obsolete in the eyes of the public. That people will start expecting the kind of speed and quality that comes from having a large amount of resources and people.
i thought the answer to this was obviously a yes? i wouldn't use the word force but yeah i'd expect someone using my IP to follow my rules and not ask to have their special snowflake version exclusive to their country of residence
How ZUN deals with this those is gonna be key I think. Does he force us to conform to how it is in Japan,
i thought the answer to this was obviously a yes? i wouldn't use the word force but yeah i'd expect someone using my IP to follow my rules and not ask to have their special snowflake version exclusive to their country of residence
there is literally nothing stopping people from making their own touhou fanwork in the west, comics have been made, stuff like danmakufu... in doujin the only thing that can stop you is yourself., whether it be having not enough initiative or motivation or whatever. its a hobby first and foremost i don't see any reason why the western fanbase needs money to complete anything?
pretty sure zun just doesn't want to sell out his IP unless you guys believe the urban legend that he gets a cut of every doujin sold lol
I think a problem we are having is that for the groups over in Japan seeing, its become a case of actions speak louder then words. They see a touhou project asking for money to be made, then once its out ask for more money. That's what I imagine what they are seeing, they've been doing their business style for a long time and hasn't really changed, now a new group turns up and tries it different, to them you'd look greedy or out of place. Remember that this is also a very traditional country as well.
Edit: Again just to clarify I know they're not doing this project solely for money.
How many of these Japanese viewers are understanding exactly what we're discussing? I heard someone say one of them might have mentioned our thread with disdain, saying that we're arrogant (correct me if I'm wrong). If they were able to read everything in here and understand us, would they actually be saying that?
If you CAN read these posts, Mr. Japanese guest, then please realize that these people have no intention of making any sort of monetary gain from this project, they simply want it to take less than 5 years to finish. However, it is of course up to the decision of ZUN himself. If he says no to this indiegogo campaign, then that will be the end of it.
I do want to clarify one thing I said after looking around these boards. Making touhou fan games doujin style here is not impossible Like your game for example Porygon. I just think that do make a full fledged fighting game with smash style gameplay is not something easily done. doujin fighters take a lot of time and money to do, and I think crowdfunding is the only way to get it down in any reasonable amount of timeAh yes, I agree completely with you there. My game doesn't use all original or free-to-use assets at the moment though so it's not completely what a true doujin game should be like, but I hope to change that in the future.
Yeah, it's way easier to make danmakufu games without lots of outside resources. Not that they can't be downright amazing, and I'm not trying to downplay them, of course, but it depends on the genre and how "from the ground up" you're doing it as to how much you need.
Almost everything we use is an outside resource though. Although many of us learn to compose or create our own graphics, we can't do everything, especially without spilling money from our own pockets. Almost every danmakufu scripter uses outside resources in the form of sprites, shot sheets, music, sound effects, etc.Yes, but those are much easier (and cheaper) to make yourself than say 3D models and animation. Music and SFX might be more of an issue though. I'm actually curious what Touhou Smash does for its SFX now.
Sorry everybody, I took Helepolis's suggestion and have just woken up (and read all the comments) ALL GOOD POINTS.
I'm taking this plan into action as fast as I can (ON A SIDE NOTE, THIS PROBABLY MEANS THAT THE DEMO WILL BE DELAYED BUT FOR A GOOD REASON).
There is a lot of things which I can present as green flags to help prove that we do not care about "gold."
1: Up to this point I have a history of creating games for the sake of having people have fun with them: Bullet life, Remnants of a Beautiful Day, Spheroid, Glass Wing.
2: One mentioned, Spheroid, is an example of a game I created even though it did not get funded, which goes to show that I am willing to go that far with my games.
3: I have always been presenting Touhou Smash on my youtube as a dev logs to engage fans with the project multiple times every week.
4: To further excite the fans, I even went out of my way to buy airplane tickets to attend Touhoucon and share the game with everyone who was there.
5: Within the campaign itself, many of the perks themselves allow the fans to be a designer for the game themselves to an effect.
6: It is just a stupid idea to make a crowd funding campaign for the sake of making money because that would only result in short lived success, when what FSS is after is the feeling that people are having fun playing our games.
7: A Touhou Smash character consists of at least 135 animations, which is A LOT OF WORK, AND A LOT OF TIME! If we have the ability to put that work load on another passionate animator instead of ourselves, we can save a lot of time so that we can concentrate on the gameplay. (paying someong to animate a Smash character is expensive, I took my calculations from directly talking to some potential animators myself.)
You are right, I just wish I didn't need to do this over twitter. Maybe I can get Game Saved to make an article about this....Seems that have worked out if you did so. The blog writer actually apologised in red here for the misunderstanding: http://gamesaved.hateblo.jp/entry/touhou-smashbros-wiiu after the explanation from Saijee.
With or without crowdfunding, you should respect his answer/judgement if he denies the crowdfunding and allows the work itself. Peace of mind can also lead to faster development and maybe some people will contact you after this incident and offer help for free? Life is full of surprises you know.
Ok guys, I know that I'm several hours behind, but no Japanese bilingual was available all this time. But I did finally respond to Ruw's tweet. Still not very happy with not being able to explain anything within that twitter character limit.
Well hello there. Nice to meet you.Hi. Nice to meet you. I go by persceaux.
I can see how the lack of proper PR could hurt. Is there anything different between american and Japanese?Not that I know much about either, but there are many more set expressions of politeness in Japanese that anyone doing PR ought to be comfortable with.
So the japanese community is not very happy huh? Thats a shame.Nope, they're really not. I've been reading every tweet search result for 東方 大乱闘 and 東方 スマブラ for a while and also threads on 東方裏, etc. Of course, almost no one in Japan bothers to read the IndieGoGo campaign, much less the discussion here on MotK. There were a handful of users who noted the misinformation about WiiU early on. A few also correctly blame the Nintendo Nuggets article for it. But even they don't sound very supportive of the project; the one user I found tweeting about the discussion in an English-language thread (presumably this one) said that he was becoming increasing disappointed with the creators' responses.
The creators could have done things differently but its sad to hear they lost all credibility due to this.I said they may have. They certainly need to tread very carefully from here on if they want this to have any hope of succeeding.
You seem to like the idea, and I am sure the idea of this game is popular. It's just how its going about that is not, correct?There are a lot of positive comments about the game itself, but I see as many comments that are critical of the graphics and motions, especially the characters' face. Of course it's partly because they have a bad impression of the project now, but I see the same comments about faces on the Nico uploads of the trailers (here (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25307176) and here (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25321955)) from even before the misinformation spread. I also saw multiple tweets hoping that the game will support net-play, but I know Saijee has said that this is unlikely.
tohosubs: Yeah, the amount of commenting on the models astounds me. One, the game is in progress, two, it's pretty darn good for a "from the ground up" smasher game.Part of the issue is that Japanese fans have no way of knowing that right now. (Even I'm not sure off the top of my head where to find that information.) That's just one of the many things to be made clear.
I thought Saijee said he had native speakers. I'm surprised the dialogues are going so poorly. o.OThese speakers are probably linguistically but not culturally native.
As ambitious as this game is, if you have to resort to crowdfunding, you're probably biting off more than you can chew.From a game design and development perspective, they are also setting highly unrealistic stretch goals such as Metroidvania-style story modes and too many additional characters. While these stretch goals are unlikely to be reached, their very existence do make From Soy Sauce look like inexperienced developers who promise too much without knowing the limits of what's humanly possible.
I disagree that crowdfunding is a sign that you really can't make it work and it's too much for you. There have been many successful game projects out of crowdfunding.
You have the Super Maiden Wars series, Ankake Spa's games, and Tasogare Frontier's stuff like DynaMarisa. They are all ambitious, high-quality games made from the ground up, all on the circle's efforts. They might have employed the use of royalty-free materials in some cases, but that's about it.How many people are in these circles anyway? FSS only has 3 people (to my knowledge) and I don't know how many of them can animate.
How many people are in these circles anyway? FSS only has 3 people (to my knowledge) and I don't know how many of them can animate.There's probably a fair number of people, but they're still all one circle. I imagine if they needed someone to help with any one task, they found someone willing to help to join their circle, or learned themselves.
There's probably a fair number of people, but they're still all one circle. I imagine if they needed someone to help with any one task, they found someone willing to help to join their circle, or learned themselves.They way you say it it sounds so easy to just find people to help them for no (or little) compensation. But in my experience it just isn't that easy, if even possible. For my game, I have been hard pressed to find someone willing to contribute boss sprites so that I don't have to use official Touhou sprites. I've also seen MANY similar art and music requests for game projects on this forum which have also gone unanswered. Is it just easier to find people in the japanese community? Cause it sure isn't in the western community.
Tangentially related: Anyone that is this surprised to learn how gotta-do-it-myself the doujin scene is clearly never read/followed the saga of RosenKreuzStilette Freudenstachel.
...how does it sound made up if you say you want to use the money to speed the project? This seems obvious to me.Mainly because it isn't specified how more money equates to faster development time. Yes, it seems obvious for that to be the case, which is why it would sound like you just made it up as an excuse for asking for money. It means that you've somehow estimated dev time without funds, estimated dev time with funds, and nobody knows what the funds are used for or why it suddenly speeds development up, which sounds suspicious. Especially to a culture that simply doesn't do this.
They way you say it it sounds so easy to just find people to help them for no (or little) compensation. But in my experience it just isn't that easy, if even possible. For my game, I have been hard pressed to find someone willing to contribute boss sprites so that I don't have to use official Touhou sprites. I've also seen MANY similar art and music requests for game projects on this forum which have also gone unanswered. Is it just easier to find people in the japanese community? Cause it sure isn't in the western community.That is kind of the thing. Most of the westerners are thinking "I need investment to get things done". They are are usually always thinking in terms of money because it is just a cultural thing in most cases. The spirit of Doujin development is hard work through effort. And you have a potential point about art, music, sprites. Compared to Japan, we lack a lot of those people because we're generally not an digital art culture. I'll give you an example: On favourable request one of the Neetpia (from Age of Ethanols) people made me one of my boss sprites because their circle had a spriter.
こんにちは、From Soy Sauceです。まずプロジェクトのための資金ですが、これは私たち個人の物ではありません。もしZUNさんがこの事について問題があるとお考えならばその考えを尊重します。ですがもしかしたら誤解されている点があるかもしれないのでこの資金のことについて説明させてください。
私達はこのプロジェクトを８月から開始しました。そして世界中のたくさんの東方ファンが私たちのYOUTUBE動画を観てチャンネル登録してくださいました。そのなかには金銭的に余裕のある方たちもいらっしゃいます。
一般的に、東方プロジェクトは日本で行われるたくさんの同人イベントによって金銭的なサポートが行われます。そして日本は素晴らしいプロジェクトを作成するたくさんのコンピューターグラフィックの才能がある東方ファンに恵まれています。しかしながら、日本以外の国ではこのような才能のある人や熱心なファン、資金を提供してくれる人を探すのは容易ではありません。その結果たくさんの世界中のファンたちは資金を提供するしかゲームの開発をサポートする道がありません。
もともとの計画では、８キャラと１０のステージでした。ですがファンたちはたくさんのキャラとステージと質の良いグラフィックを望んでいます。しかしながら、もしそれを実現するならば５年ぐらいかかります。
そのための解決策として、世界中の東方ファンは私達に募金を募集するキャンペーンをしてゲームをより大きくすることを提案してくれたのです。そして、もし十分なお金を援助してもらえば、このゲームを一年でより良いものにすることができます。
私たちはこのプロジェクトに一日約八時間費やしています。私達はこのサイトにその成果を毎週アップロードしています。https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTgmfRrJQq0&list=PLaDd9276h4ZDo3RgOFGfcRbw7mUTScQ4S&index=1
私達のチャンネルでその成果とプロジェクト初日からファンになってくれている方々のコメントをご覧になってください。FSSではコメント欄でのファンたちの案や意見を頻繁に取り入れています。
計算の結果、一つのキャラクターを作成するのにAnimatorsに平均３５０，０００円かかることが分かりました。今のところ＄１７４４５ものお金が募金されており、最大で６つのキャラクターを作ることができます。すでに作成したい２５つのキャラクターのうち２つを私達で完成することができました。ウェブページで私達の資金を確認してもらうこともできます。ですが見ていただくとおり２５つものキャラクターを製作するのには程遠い金額です。
そして、クラウドファンディングは普通の募金システムではありません。たくさんの人が募金すればするほど、私達にはゲームをより良くするという義務が強くなります。そして募金の額が多いほどゲームのサービスも良くなります。
例えば、もし十分なお金がなければ＄５を寄付して、ゲームに入れて欲しいキャラクターを投票することができます。
もし＄２０を寄付すればゲームのフリーコピーをダウンロードすることができます。
もし＄２００寄付すれば，幻想郷の中から好きな場所を選べます。そして私たちがそのステージを作ります。
もし＄２０００または＄３０００を寄付すれば寄付者の好きなキャラクターをプレイすることは約束されます。＄３０００は一つのキャラクターを作成するのに十分な金額だからです。限りはありますが、特にこのプロジェクトに興味を持っていただけた日本のファンのためにキャラクターの選択権を用意しています。
日本の方たちの中で私達がお金を簡単に稼ぐために東方の名を使っていると思われている方たちがいらっしゃるのは承知しています。ですがZunさんのポリシーに従っています。そしてこのプロジェクトやこの一ヶ月半Zunさんにプロジェクトに関して質問攻めにしてしまったことがZUNさんを不快にさせていないといいです。
お金よりも、私達は東方について全く知らない人たちに東方を紹介することが出来れば幸いです。欧米の人たちの反応はとても良いです。
もしZUNさんが納得できないのであれば、私達FSSは募金をキャンセルして募金をしてくれたファン一人ひとりにお金を返金する予定です。キャラクターとレベルは最低限でとても小さいゲームになります。ですが、たくさんの世界中の東方ファンがより良いゲームを望んでいます。もしZUNさんまたはZunさんの代理人の方が fromsoysauce@gmail.com に連絡していただければ、ZUNさんの選択に従いますし、世界中の東方ファンも理解するでしょう。
もしZUNさんの気分を害してしまったのならば本当に申し訳ありません。これが私達の始めての東方プロジェクトです。もし何か問題を起こしてしまったのならば申し訳ありません。改善します。
このゲームの作成を続ける方法はたくさんありますが、ZUNさんの恩恵なしでは続けたくありません。もし必要があれば、FSS のうちの一人がアメリカから日本に行きZunさんまたは代理人の方とゲームや募金について個人的にお話しに行くことも可能です。
もし資金を集めることが問題であれば、募金なしで規模や質は落ちますがこのゲームを完成させようと思います。
よろしくお願いいたします
From the "our story" part on that page:
...is this how you want to explain it?
Does anybody know if this is relevant to Touhou Smash Bros? I can't tell one way or the other, given that I have zero understanding of Japanese. ZUN said it on Twitter 12 hours ago.
"持ち込み企画と言ってもアドバイザーが僕に当たった人は、何処かに採用されたり商品化されるという夢はありませんが"
Honestly in my opinion perhaps you should not do that. You're putting this on a level as if every single fan project here on the west is having a conflict. The more interference is being submitted into this case the more complex it becomes. There is a reason why some of us didn't jump over to the Twitter conversation and started discussing this.
This is the best translation of ZUN's tweet that I've gotten. From a friend:
""So he planned to start negotiationg with his advisor, but he emplyed the man who had called him in the first place. Regardless, he had no intention of merchandising."
Best I can do.
I'm too tired to properly translate that tweet, but it's about the upcoming Nico event where he will offer feedback to other doujin games. It's totally unrelated.
- - -
. What I am concerned about is our forum reputation. We're RikaNitori and last thing I want is us being painted as, what had been already dropped by the eastern fans, arrogant bunch of people who stubbornly will continue their work.
Saijee: I saw your exchange with a Japanese guy on Twitter. I think there was a bit of a language barrier issue, so I'll give a clearer interpretation of what he was trying to say.oh my god n-forza all of my upvotes, if this forum had the equivalent of upvotes
This all seems to center around your insistence of moving ahead with the crowdfunding campaign despite knowing it goes against the guidelines, because you believe they are outdated.
That may very well be true, but it seems that ZUN sees no reason to change them as of yet, or even hint at it. He could have very well been thinking about that very carefully after his Atlanta visit, but could not have found the time to do it. He's a very busy man with a family, which is probably why he didn't answer your initial e-mail in a timely manner. He probably receives hundreds of such e-mails every week, many of them from projects of a far bigger scope than yours, so it's possible he's only more receptive to face-to-face meetings. Regardless, that gave you no reason to go ahead with the indiegogo thing.
Putting your game on indiegogo was an unwise move for two reasons: 1. Crowdfunding goes against the very spirit of doujin works. I've already covered that so I'll skip it. But the other, possibly equally important reason 2 is that you put it on a site that is not your own and has no affiliation with Touhou at all. ZUN doesn't want Touhou fanworks in public places because you'll catch the attention of people who have no idea what Touhou or doujin is, and you'll possibly create misunderstandings such as your game is an official Touhou game, you're stealing someone else's property, etc. That is the reason why ZUN only allows Touhou games to be sold at Comiket/Reitaisai-type events or stores that already deal in Touhou games, because its patrons will already have an understanding that your game is a derivative work. Even if you say "based on the Touhou games", any random Joe could even assume that you were talking about some other game series you have made. A token "we have contacted ZUN" isn't going to cut it. You have to include the proper copyright information regardless, even if right now is just that apology.
It is true that following ZUN's guidelines is far more difficult outside of Japan. No one is denying that. But there have been successful Touhou fan events in Taiwan, China, and even the USA. Had you kept to showing your game and possibly sold demos at Touhoucon and maybe even anime conventions (assuming you could get permission), there would not have been any problems whatsoever. It was only when you thrust your game for all to see on the internet that you crossed the line.
No one wants to see you stop working on your game. In fact, if you can get a demo ready by Reitaisai, I will gladly help sell physical copies at my booth (if I get in) and even handle overseas distribution. The problem is that you seem think you have the right to use someone else's characters while willfully ignoring the relatively loose guidelines in place because they're "not fair". You have to work within the boundaries that have been laid out. If anything, doing so would've been even MORE impressive and reflected well on the western community, because it would've been proof that there are those who understand doujin culture despite not living in Japan. My advice is to end the crowdfunding drive immediately, apologize, and go back to what you've been doing. There's still time to save face and the hard work you've invested thus far.
I'll clarify any points I might not have gone into enough detail, but this is pretty much my final word.
And don't retort with anything idiotic like "you're not ZUN". I'm not meaning to toot my own horn, but I've been involved in the doujin scene, particularly the Touhou one, for nearly 6 years now, so I would like to think I know what I'm talking about. I'm not ZUN, but judging from past experiences and what other Japanese people are saying on Twitter, this is what the big deal is. Continue to ignore it, and worse case scenario (besides a lawsuit) is ZUN completely writes off everything east of the Pacific.
Saijee, what the hell are you playing at on your Facebook page?I would like to know this as well.
(http://i.gyazo.com/9de21d6bae31a6bdc448cae8ce2679da.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/niNjwWq.png)
(http://i.gyazo.com/c43200fee695914d9a526819f4019abb.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/JeDGggZ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/thFR5QS.png)
Stop beating around the bush. If you received an answer, say it. And show the answer. If you didn't, say it, and stop making bold statements like that. Listen to what N-Forza said. Act accordingly, because he knows what he's talking about and obviously has experience to back it up.
Stop making the situation and the misunderstandings even worse and worse.
There's something I'd like to see clarified.....You're slightly off.
It sounds like it's already a little too late to ditch the crowdfunding thing. They've already gathered $20k (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/touhou-super-smash-battles) and met their goal, and indiegogo doesn't look like it allows refunds (https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526876-Refunds) or cancellations (https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/527416-Deleting-a-Campaign). So, if I understand correctly, Saijee has already made $20,000 from this project regardless of how things go.
Is this right? Or am I misunderstanding how these things work.....?
Contributions on Indiegogo are nonrefundable according to our Terms of Use. A contribution is a transaction that takes place purely between the contributor, campaign owner and payment processor. If you'd like a refund for your contribution, please contact the campaign owner directly with your request.It means Saijee (campaign owner) has to handle the refunds if it is canceled.
You're slightly off.Thanks for the clarification, it looks like I missed that part in IGG's FAQ. So it's handled on an individual basis then. Sounds like Saijee will have his hands full....
It means Saijee (campaign owner) has to handle the refunds if it is canceled.
Forth: in the off chance that this does get shut down as an indiegogo, then there is really no harm done, so I don't actually have anything to lose except for potential means to get the game done faster.
Twitter train wreck: https://imgur.com/a/gzDUt (https://imgur.com/a/gzDUt)Saijee, to the Japanese you're probably coming off as more than a tad entitled and self-centered.
"The Guidlines to Touhou need to be updated."
"Is it reasonable to expect that someone from USA to distribute a Touhou fangame at Comiket or Reitesai?"
"How is that *fair* for anyone outside of Japan?"
"We the west should have a right to celebrate touhou and doujin too."
-snip-Amen.
Re: that twitter, what really gets me is people saying that only current Touhou fans should see the fangames. What about people who see the fan games and go "Huh, I wonder what this is from, it says that it doesn't own the characters...what's this Touhou thing? I should check it out." How many people found out about Touhou from the silly McRoll video? Or someone showing them Bad Apple? Or Touhouvania, or any number of fan works? Hell, "What's that anime?" can turn into "Nope, it's a video game, here, check it out!"
I think it is quite unreasonable to ask people to withhold their fan work from anyone who isn't into Touhou already, because that's just stunting possible fandom. Granted, if ZUN says don't do something, we're obligated to not do it.
Twitter train wreck: https://imgur.com/a/gzDUt (https://imgur.com/a/gzDUt)Remember what I said Kitaen V.R.F. Silva about using the word "we"? The same applies to you, Saijee.
"The Guidlines to Touhou need to be updated."
"Is it reasonable to expect that someone from USA to distribute a Touhou fangame at Comiket or Reitesai?"
"How is that *fair* for anyone outside of Japan?"
"We the west should have a right to celebrate touhou and doujin too."
Yonjin
この件については昨日知ったぐらいですね
そして彼と何回かリプライの応酬をしたぐらいです
同人界隈には、定期的に原作の権利を侵害をするような事件がたまにあります。 なのであまり珍しくはないとも感じます。
ただ今回は海外の、いち同人ファンの暴走と見るべきか、東方の同人の権利について無知なファンが引き起こした事件なのか、権利意識の低さによる海賊行為なのか、判断がまだつかないところです。
Me
こういう件も前にあったんですか？日本にでも？
Yonjin
いくらでもあります。
東方ガイドラインにはアニメ制作を禁じているにも関わらず、勝手に公式を名乗ってアニメを販売しようとして、最終的に中止になったり
東方Projectの称号を同人ショップが乗っ取ろうとしたり
他にも勝手に"公式"を名乗ろうとする人達は居て、その都度ZUNやファンが対応しました。
今回の件も、ある種それに似た行為として捉える事ができます。
そもそも、同人とは本来、著作権的に非合法と合法の中間に位置する行為です。
東方Projectの繁栄は、その曖昧な同人活動に対して、東方ガイドラインという明確な指標を示すことで、同人作品を合法かつ公正に認める事が画期的でした。
今回の事件は東方ガイドラインを破る行為で、これは東方同人コミュニティとして拒絶されるべき行為です。
また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。
Me
ええ、それはよく聞く話です。だから同人に関わる?犯罪?などどうやるべきもよくわからない。 でもそれは海外だけの話と思ったな。まさか日本にもそんなにあるとはなあ
Yonjin
ガイドラインを守る限り、同人活動は合法です。 しかし日本にも利益のためにガイドラインを蔑ろにする人は出てきます。
また、クラウドファンディングを利用して資本を集めることは、そもそも『同人活動ではない』とみなされます。 それは商業活動であり、つまり著作権侵害の海賊行為とみなされます。
Me
では，クラウドファンディング以外でもその権利のことも問題ですか？ 他にまだまだいけない事あるんですか？
Yonjin
東方ガイドライン違反
・同人文化や東方Projectを知らない人も利用する場(Indiegogo)にZUNの許可なく露出させた。 これはクラウドファンディングでないサービスでも批難されます。
・Indiegogoのページ、ZUNのクレジットが明記されていない。 彼は「以前は表示をされていた」「宣伝動画の途中に触れている」とツィートしていましたが、誰の目に見てすぐにわかるようでなければガイドライン違反です。
・また現時点においては同人作品のダウンロード販売は認められていません。 これについては、今の状況に合わせてガイドラインを更新してもいいと思いますが、だからといってガイドラインを破る行為は同人活動から逸脱します。
海外に同人ショップを構えたり利用するのが難しかったり、同人イベントを開催したり参加したりするのが難しい現状は想像できます。 しかしガイドラインについて相談する前に違反してしまえば対話は不可能です。
もっともダウンロード販売は実際にやってる人もいるので、曖昧かつグレーではあります。しかしガイドライン違反で褒められることではありません
なので問題点を整理すると
・クラウドファンディングで出資を集めた。(同人活動は非営利が前提)
・同人や東方を知らない人達の集まる場に同人作品を出した。(ガイドライン違反)
・現時点で認められないダウンロード販売を公言した。(ガイドライン違反) この3つでしょうか
Me
うむ，結構多いな。説明してありがとうYonjinさん。 返事が遅くと少なくってごめん。今もまだこの件について私たちの中で話しています。
Yonjin
悲しいことに、これらは同人活動や東方ガイドラインに対する無理解や不勉強が根本的な原因に思われます。 気づいて貰うと彼と会話しましたが、残念ながら失敗したようです。
おっと
取り急ぎ、多いですが今回の事件に対する自分の意見です
ついでに話すと、今回の事件に対するひとつの解決策としては
1. Indiegogoを中止する
2. 東方ProjectのFANしかいないクローズな場で説明する
3. クローズな場でdonationwareとして無料で公開し募金を募る。
です
Me
そういえば，Yonjinさん自身は東方の同人世界の中で，何者ですか？ 東方界隈が主な生息域っと書いたけど，正直まだわからない。失礼ならばごめんなさい
Yonjin
自分はただの一人の東方ファンですよ。ZUNや黄昏の作品を買い、東方同人作品を買い、たまに同人作品のイベント用ページやサービスを作ったりします。かれこれ10年以上経ちますね
Me
ZUNさんと係ることがあるんですか？
Yonjin
ただのファンなのでイベントで顔を見るくらいで、係るという程はないですね
また基本的にZUNは個別にファンと関わることは極めて少ないです。 彼の監修する本や作品の出版社や、同人活動ではなく個人的な繋がりを尊重する人とも聞きます。
なのでいくらZUNに個人としてメールで連絡しようとしても、恐らく回答はないと思います。 企業として責任を明示して窓口に問い合わせるなら別でしょうけど
Me
勿論この事は彼らにきっちり伝えてやる。ZUNさんにまでこれ以上の迷惑かけたくないな。
Yonjin
海外にも貴方のように同人文化について熱心に理解しようと努力する人が居るのは、東方Projectが海や国境を越えたことを感じてとても嬉しいです。
彼らの行いは不幸な出来事ですが、こうして貴方と対話が出来たのは幸運です。
また彼らの行いが、東方Projectや同人の文化が正しく理解されるキッカケになることを願います。
長々と失礼しました
おそらく、悪意がなかったのは確かで、彼も東方ファンの一人なのだと思います。しかし無理解と不勉強が今回の事件を起こしたのだと思います。 失敗は仕方ないです、誰でもします。
大事なのは同人活動や東方ガイドライン対する姿勢です。 もし彼らがこのまま姿勢を変えずに、東方ガイドラインを蔑ろにするのであれば、彼らは東方ファンから海賊行為をする犯罪者になります。 彼らが考えや姿勢を改めることを願います。
(http://i60.tinypic.com/v7xe39.png)
I'm curious if Saijee is really adressing these issues or just putting up a facade to placate detractors and keep down bad PR while knowing the people who are unaware/uncaring will continue to fund his project....
Hm, I feel as if putting out this demo is actually quite important.The problem is now it kinda feels like he he's purposefully ignoring the feedback, criticism and suggestions he is given because it goes against his original plans and ideas.
If the campaign truly is going to go down and refunded then they absolutely have to show some progress that's not just a simple dev log.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/v7xe39.png)
I'm curious if Saijee is really adressing these issues or just putting up a facade to placate detractors and keep down bad PR while knowing the people who are unaware/uncaring will continue to fund his project....
I think he said it would be delayed, then decided to cut Tensh which would bring the release up?
(http://i.gyazo.com/9de21d6bae31a6bdc448cae8ce2679da.png)
Are you effing kidding me? Didn't he say that whole Wii U thing was a misunderstanding?! What is this guy doing?
<rant>
I don't know? Trying to destroy the reputation of the Western Touhou Community and brand us all as liars?
</rant>
Truthfully, I don't know. I'm worried though, because he doesn't seem to give a damn about ZUN's copyright guidelines, and there may be a backlash against other developers who ARE following those guidelines but whose work is not welcomed because of this precedent.
It's also means they haven't contacted anyone at Team Shanghai Alice since ZUN is it's only member! It's a one man team.
I think it could mean that they contacted whoever helps ZUN go through his emails. I think I read he had someone help him create that form somewhere, and I doubt he goes through all of them himself. I could be wrong though.
It's also means they haven't contacted anyone at Team Shanghai Alice since ZUN is it's only member! It's a one man team.
I think it could mean that they contacted whoever helps ZUN go through his emails. I think I read he had someone help him create that form somewhere, and I doubt he goes through all of them himself. I could be wrong though.
Although the lack of response is troubling, I don't think it's quite fair to say nothing's been done. He could have been spending all of this time on the demo, or something behind the scenes.But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).
But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).
I think it may be best to hold off on downloading this until Saijee AND someone connected with the eastern Touhou fandom can confirm the outstanding issues have been resolved or until Saijee takes the necessary steps to conform to ZUN's guidelines. The WTC and its developers's reputation is worth more than $20.7k + demo and as it stands it doesn't look like Saijee cares..... Someone has to. =/
Sorry, I'm just feeling upset at the direction this has been taking.....
Saijee, what the hell are you playing at on your Facebook page?Well, I guess Saijee might've misunderstood how Touhou doujin works... The indie and doujin method, although similar, are really different : crowdfunding and mainstream distribution platforms may be alright for indie related stuff, but the doujins are more DIYish and rely on more "obscure" means such as doujin specialised channels... and the Touhou guideline only take doujin standards into account: the japanese community have melonbooks, tora no ana and stuff for the distribution of their work but the "overseas people" don't have any elaborate way of distribution for their work... Sure, there are doujin games on steam, but it'll be seen as mainstream distribution channel regardless. I believe Saijee planning to get this game on steam (not Wii U anymore I guess) might make sense this way while in fact it's simply a No-go by Touhou guidelines, and the Japanese community will seriously consider this as an attempt to make a Touhou product commercial or milking money with Touhou's name value...
(http://i.gyazo.com/9de21d6bae31a6bdc448cae8ce2679da.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/niNjwWq.png)
(http://i.gyazo.com/c43200fee695914d9a526819f4019abb.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/JeDGggZ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/thFR5QS.png)
The Guidlines to Touhou need to be updated.The numbers of "overseas people" fanwork do not compare to that of the Japanese community, I highly doubt that ZUN'll change his guidelines for one "exception"... especially since there are "oversea people" following the rules.
But that's the problem. There are many outstanding issues that SHOULD have been resolved before the demo was released. Instead, Saijee skipped over the resolution of those issues and went ahead with development anyway. The problem, as I see it, is that he DID 'spend all of his time on the demo' (or maybe just most of it -- either way, it seems to have taken priority over the important issues).Daaaaaamn. Is it even possible to bail out of the whole crowdfunding mess at this point? (No idea how Indiegogo works)
I think it may be best to hold off on downloading this until Saijee AND someone connected with the eastern Touhou fandom can confirm the outstanding issues have been resolved or until Saijee takes the necessary steps to conform to ZUN's guidelines. The WTC and its developers's reputation is worth more than $20.7k + demo and as it stands it doesn't look like Saijee cares..... Someone has to. =/
Sorry, I'm just feeling upset at the direction this has been taking.....
(long snip, including Japanese discussion)
First off, if ZUN is just not going to reply, why is it in his guidelines to contact him for grey cases that aren't covered in the guidelines? It's awfully poor to say "please contact me" and then...well, not be contactable. Or at least odd. ZUN's copyright statements (and I'm reading them *right now*) say to *ask his permission.* I think someone who does this should explicitly answer instead of A) hoping that a lack of response is taken as a no, which is in no way clear because ZUN receives a zillion emails I'm sure, or B) leaving people hanging until the project kinda gets swept under the rug when he would have said yes. Yes, ZUN can do what he wants. No, I think "radio silence" is not good form here.While you do have some points, a lot is on the line here, and Saijee, quite frankly, has been making some mindbogglingly stupid decisions (ex: implying that he's now considering a Wii U port shortly after that misunderstanding had been sorted out).
Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."
This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.
Three: Wow, this all escalated quickly. People said "Saijee, you need a small demo," and Saijee obediently rushed to make it...now you're all complaining that he was spending too much time doing the demo you told him to make, when he blasted it out as quickly as he could, as per your instructions. So he rushed the small demo, and now everyone's demanding he just shut down everything and quit all this before he gets a response at all, if he will. You asked him to be proactive and try to have discussions, and then you got mad when he did and claimed he's totally wrecking the hell out of the Western fandom forever. I'm unsurprised he isn't back here yet, because you all look like you will never be satisfied with anything he's doing. Nothing he does is good enough it seems.
IF ZUN says yes, he says yes, if ZUN says no, he says no. I'll throw out the horribly unpopular opinion here and say Saijee should see this through to a response, and then behave accordingly from there. ZUN is the lord of Touhou. ZUN is the one who matters here. And I would love to see the folks complaining in the East keep an open mind and give this kind of thing a chance. Saying "I'm glad there is international fandom but they have to do it our way" is...well, closed-minded if you ask me. (And I'm talking about the other folks involved in the conversation over there, not ZUN, since he hasn't said anything on the matter that we know.)
There is no guideline on Western indie style efforts, and I really think this whole debacle, once it's over, will have done us some good if a conclusion on that matter happens. Otherwise, it's a big hole waiting to be filled.
[...]milking money with Touhou's name value...
the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here
Three: Wow, this all escalated quickly. People said "Saijee, you need a small demo," and Saijee obediently rushed to make it...now you're all complaining that he was spending too much time doing the demo you told him to make, when he blasted it out as quickly as he could, as per your instructions. So he rushed the small demo, and now everyone's demanding he just shut down everything and quit all this before he gets a response at all, if he will. You asked him to be proactive and try to have discussions, and then you got mad when he did and claimed he's totally wrecking the hell out of the Western fandom forever. I'm unsurprised he isn't back here yet, because you all look like you will never be satisfied with anything he's doing. Nothing he does is good enough it seems.
At this point, I think this "Yonjin" person is just a hater who's likely going to try and bash the project in every way possible. I don't want that to be the case, but his posts (at least what you translators claim them to be) look like they're strongly disapproving of this project.
he's a member of the organizing party (service provider) for doujin events in Japan. He's in charge of making webpages and services for over 10 years. And thus, he is very knowledgeable regarding the whole doujin making rules of Touhou.
<explanation>
If you had read from then myself and a few people said waiting for a demo once the issues are taken care of was no problem, many other suggested that what he should have done or should be doing is not indiegogo but make the small section of the game and sell it to make the profit needed to get where they are now. The problem is that even with the guidline thing you talked about it's not that ZUN is keeping quite about it but the issue is Saijee went ahead with the indiegogo before getting a response. The time it would take to get a answer back they could have continued development for the game themselves and once they had the greenlight from ZUN the game would be pretty developed at that point.
No offense but when you talk about close mindedness and get offended at us for all of this, I can't take someone who is invested in the game with actual money serious on what is said. It's very common for those who spend money on a product and defend it out of the fact they spent their own money on it.
Yes, I read that post earlier, but there's also the complaint about "not allowing animations", which seems contradictory to the fact that he knows the rules regarding derivatives. I'm NOT accusing him of anything, I'm just pointing out that inconsistency. It just seems strange that he'd mention that when all the animations are clearly three-dimensional and computer-generated.
I'm not even sure where this "animations" thing came from. Did someone post a translation of his comments somewhere other than in this thread?
----------------------------------------------------
Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."
This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.
[...]
Yeah, that's the post I was bringing up.
My bad. :P
Colticide: I saw that, but couldn't find where Alcor got that information, which is part of the reason I asked. (People were weren't questioning it at all, so I figured I missed something.)
Two: the complaint from Yonjin about ZUN not allowing animations does not apply here, to be a bit pedantic. It's specifically 2d animations, and *explicitly* not 3d-rendered ones, that matter. This is in the actual copyrights document: "* By this I mean so-called "traditional cell animation"; computer-generated 3D animation and 2D illustrations with special effects processing aren't included in this restriction."I've just finished reading the whole correspondence between monhan and Yonjin, and I have to make a post real quick to clear something up.
This is computer-generated 3d animation. It's not under that restriction.
fans that wilfully created an animation product, labelled it as official
Google translate is not your friend.
It never was. Translating between Western and Eastern languages is very complicated and difficult for computer translation algorithms, so most of the time I translate Japanese to Chinese with it instead of to English, because the latter often ends up a garbled, unintelligible mess.
I've been trying to follow this but I'm getting kind of confused. I can understand some criticism about what FSS has done (or failed to do) but everyone's making it seem like this is a huge deal. As far as I can see, if ZUN shuts down this project the only people who have anything to lose are FSS and maybe the people who contributed money (and even then, that's only if FSS runs off with all the money). It'd be a shame if this game doesn't get done but if it doesn't we haven't really lost anything.
If it's about reputation, AFAIK nothing like this has happened in the west before. Plus stuff like this has happened before in the east, so I'd like to believe ZUN would view this as an isolated incident and not hold it against everyone. And even if he does it doesn't seem like he's been very willing to deal with the west in the first place, so again, I don't see what we're losing (or why this is such a big deal). I feel like I'm missing something here...
it doesn't seem like he's been very willing to deal with the west in the first place
No your right, I don't know if it's cause all of this is happening in the same forum that I'm in or something else. But then again I was never a part of the Doublefine stuff and I get just as emotional about it, so I think it's just me.
everything Yonjin wrote translated into perfect Chinese.NO. No no no no no no. No it does not.
I'm probably going to assume that's going to be the case with any other East Asian language in the place of Chinese, which means it's very possible for someone fluent in English and another East Asian language to translate these conversations.English and Chinese have surprisingly similar grammar patterns, word orders, and sentence structures, and both are Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) languages.
EDIT: Idioms and figures of speech used in Japanese might not translate too well, but the meaning is still easy to deduce. What matters is that grammatical correctness is near-perfect.
There are no "haters" in this picture and nothing about double standards.
<transcript>
I really think Saijee needs to see that message asap.
I really think Saijee needs to see that message asap.
Has anybody been able to contact him?His Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/fromsoysauce) page and Twitter (https://twitter.com/SaijeeHiguchi) account are a possible way to do it (he's been active the whole day). I'd do it but I don't think I'm the most diplomatic person for this sort of thing.
So from what I'm reading in the above post (thank you touhousubs for being a great translator), it is possible to still save the project?
Announced download sales, which is not currently allowed.
[...]
offer it for free as a donation ware in a non-public setting.
FWIW, I messaged FSS, linking him directly to the translation with an urgent statement. Ball's in his court now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the whole situation could be fixed if the indiegogo campaign is stopped, an apology made, and the game released for free as donationware.
There's always a way, the guidelines where pretty clear cut. If what I'm reading is correct, he doesn't have permission to sell the game so the best he can do is a free version, HOWEVER if he does contact ZUN through business means and waits for a response and cancels the indiegogo campaign then I'm fairly sure they will be fine. The other issue would be that DL sites should be off limits for the time being (Unless otherwise said by ZUN), they might have to sell a physical copy at cons or doujin event's (Like Touhoucon). This is what I can think of anyway.Mass distribution is a problem by itself, even if the campaign is generally geared towards Touhou fans. A free version would be something to put on a personal webpage, just as you would a demo, and leave it as donationware. However, I really don't think it would be very difficult to find people to sell the game at conventions by proxy, and we already have at least one person willing to sell it at japanese doujin events.
I'm actually curious as to whether offering the game on a privately-hosted server would be legal. Donationware is quite common nowadays, and since Yonjin wrote that himself (in English, too) I'm assuming he means that sales on well-known websites is illegal, while literally giving away the game would be legal. I also believe that fans will, in fact, donate to FSS, as evidenced by the campaign going on so far.See above. This is pretty standard. The difference between offering a game on a massive scale and for free on a personal site (where anyone could just link to) is largely the issue of spreading it to people who know nothing of Touhou. This is especially the case where Shanghai Alice isn't properly credited. Also, while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.
Mass distribution is a problem by itself, even if the campaign is generally geared towards Touhou fans. A free version would be something to put on a personal webpage, just as you would a demo, and leave it as donationware. However, I really don't think it would be very difficult to find people to sell the game at conventions by proxy, and we already have at least one person willing to sell it at japanese doujin events.
See above. This is pretty standard. The difference between offering a game on a massive scale and for free on a personal site (where anyone could just link to) is largely the issue of spreading it to people who know nothing of Touhou. This is especially the case where Shanghai Alice isn't properly credited. Also, while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.
Technically if you think about it indiegogo and donation could be boiled down to the same thing but donations (to me at least) seems perfectly fine. Is that weird? I feel like I'm contradicting myself a bit.Indiegogo provides the kind of exposure that would mean people with no familiarity with Touhou could come across the project (which ZUN disapproves of in his guidelines). On the other hand, it's unlikely someone will come across a personal website if they don't already know what Touhou is (because, why would they be there in the first place if that's not the case?). At least, that's how I understand it.
while I do think many people will donate, including myself, a large portion of donations were made simply to reap the tier benefits, and despite what we'd like to think, people aren't nearly as motivated to spend money if they already have it for free right in front of them.
Now that you mention it, and that I think about it, it's highly likely that a few dedicated people end up donating for the creation of new features, and that the majority freeload off them. That leaves the alternative, which involves burning CDs and selling them at various conventions. I believe that in Japan, Touhou merchandise can often be found in their equivalent of the U.S.' "comic-book stores". So would it be legal for FSS to sell the game through independently-owned manga/anime stores here in the States?
I'm curious about the definition of public for doujin works. Specifically I don't understand how toranoana and melonbooks don't count, especially in the internet age, or is the guideline for not selling where the public can see specifically for digital works?
If I remember correctly, I've seen official Touhou manga, and even games in original shrink-wrapped CD-ROM format at shops of that sort. It's most likely a reseller thing going on, but at least the content creators are getting income from this process.
I'm curious about the definition of public for doujin works. Specifically I don't understand how toranoana and melonbooks don't count, especially in the internet age, or is the guideline for not selling where the public can see specifically for digital works?
Well isn't there a big movment to get doujin games on larger digital formats? (IE PlayDoijin!) So isn't those site just part of the changes for that?
I have a curiosity. Would I be able to, hypothetically, sell a doujin game I make on my personal website? Or is online commercialization strictly forbidden?
I have a curiosity. Would I be able to, hypothetically, sell a doujin game I make on my personal website? Or is online commercialization strictly forbidden?This is the one thing that we might need expansion on in the future. Selling it is the key point, since there currently isn't much consideration for digital sales that aren't intended for mass distribution. Most circles just set up shop during events and use doujin shops to proxy sales afterwards, so you can imagine it isn't really a big problem in Japan. Frontier Aja is the only circle I can think of off the top of my head with such a model. In any case, for the time being assume no.
The rules said that online selling of doujin game are forbidden, BUT that is changing for and has for a while now. For overseas it might be best to just wait till that guidelines change so no complication happen. So kinda...Fortunately, I am not even close to done with said game and it still uses a lot of copyrighted assets so it will be a while anyway, XD I would actually aim to sell it at events like TouhouCon before anything else anyway.
This is the one thing that we might need expansion on in the future. Selling it is the key point, since there currently isn't much consideration for digital sales that aren't intended for mass distribution. Most circles just set up shop during events and use doujin shops to proxy sales afterwards, so you can imagine it isn't really a big problem in Japan. Frontier Aja is the only circle I can think of off the top of my head with such a model. In any case, for the time being assume no.That was going to be my assumption, but it's always been something I've not been sure of.
I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.You really should. Like, before doing anything else.
Now I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.Oh.
But if there is one thing I've learned over the past few days, it's that I can communicate my point most effectively in the medium which I am most comfortable with.That won't work and I will reject that personally. I want a proper reply to my own Personal Message, Saijee. A video is 1-sided static message and no use to me.
And that is why the entire FSS team has been isolated together all day working on one video that explains things as clearly as possible. I only ask that you wait till it is done, once it is done, we will be able return to our normal position.
Just, please wait. We have been putting a lot of effort into making this video CRYSTAL CLEAR! I promise you that we respect ZUN's wishes, and that everything about TSSB is going to be OK.
Some of my subscribers have told me things have been getting messy back here. Now I've just gotten here. And I have not read ANYTHING at all, so I don't know anything that's going on.
At any rate, the entire team spent a whole 19 hours straight working on this video without sleep.This sounds like good news, Saijee. Thank you for following through with your promise to respect ZUN's decision.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs
If you won't accept this video's explanation, then that is not really my problem.だめだコイツ．．．
At any rate, the entire team spent a whole 19 hours straight working on this video without sleep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kgP_2oQ9Vs)
So near as I could tell through all the voice modulating (sorry to be this person, but those added effects made it really difficult for me to understand what was being said) is that people who want to maintain their perks can refuse the refund. I'm mildly surprised this is allowable by ZUN's guidelines: whatever amount of refund is refused by the original donator still amounts to crowdfunding in the end.I would say that they didn't really understand the point made by Shanghai Alice, and is just superficially complying by taking the IGG page down.
I'm also a bit distressed about how fast you guys are trying to punch through everything, though. It's a good sign to be proactive, but it really looks like you're not waiting for a result on one situation before going through with the next situation even though the second situation relies on the result from the first.They do appear to be racing against time, don't they?
And what was that about forbidden on hiring animators? There has been no such thing said if i recall.Probably they were going to hire professional help, and hot told no to avoid something like when one of the anine had pto voice actors.
making it look as if your "subscribers" on youtube/facebook are more important than people over at MotK
FSS is more likely to respond on YouTube and Facebook about concerns brought up here, which I find odd. They can't even get Yonjin's name right.Sorry for jumping into the thread outta nowhere but just want to be a little more specific that Saijee seems to be only responding to his own Youtube channel and HIS OWN facebook page (as opposed to other facebook pages where he also barely responded)
Maybe it's because there's less fanboying around here.
I'm beginning to think that MotK is largely an afterthought, because members here (as opposed to those on Facebook or YouTube) are more critical, less likely to bootlick, and more likely to present hard facts, because we care about the community as a whole.
I can see why he might be ignoring us, for the very reason I made in my previous post. The majority of YouTube users are taking advantage of the almost complete lack of moderation on the comments section of the site, and thus spouting whatever they please.
To be fair, he has no obligation to contact us, but I admit it would be easier if he would.
I'm still not sure where "we can't hire animators" is coming from though. Even if you can't pay anyone else to help, you could possibly find someone else to join your circle, even as a "guest", to do that.
Apparently MotK isn't as important as his youtube/facebook subscribers.
Saijee has been answering almost each and every comment on Youtube. I am seeing "Replied 1 hour ago" on the comments. It is 16:09 here in NL, meaning that around 15:00 he was posting/answering. Accordingly went to bed 3-4 hours ago.
You're doing great Saijee. Keep on ignoring us.
It's not ignoring you.
There's reasons why HIS own pages should be prioritized.
1. It's easier to reply and read messages compared to on a forum seeing how he has to reply to 3(?) pages of replies.
2.Many of the donators asked questions there and it's better to handle misinformation and inform them of their situations.
It's not ignoring you.I am pretty sure the problem isn't with prioritization (that is his choice and like Forza said). That wasn't exactly what I was pointing out. Mind you, if you haven't read the previous pages I would kindly suggest to do so. Or maybe in fact the whole thread would be a good start.
There's reasons why HIS own pages should be prioritized.
1. It's easier to reply and read messages compared to on a forum seeing how he has to reply to 3(?) pages of replies.
2.Many of the donators asked questions there and it's better to handle misinformation and inform them of their situations.
I do agree, but Saijee did start this thread himself, his kept this thread up to date with everything else and stopped once the Indiegogo thing started. He has as much responsibility to his own thread as he does his TY and FB pages.Not to mention that I took the initiative on suggesting Saijee in a PM to split the thread to avoid the Crowdfunding incident from messing up his main development thread. So once the situation had been fixed/solved, he could peacefully continue with his main dev thread and this would be archived/locked.
A lot of them seem ignorant to the problems people had with everything.
YouTube: a place where comments are almost like 4chan, only outside of 4chan. Often times they're so degenerate that I have a hard time believing I'm NOT on that website itself.except that even 4chan understands that indie=/=doujin culture and all the other topics brought up in this thread, meanwhile youtube subscribers just care about getting a western touhou doujin game huh? But I guess they got Saijee's undivided attention lol :v
Anyhow, someone forwarded me a part of his pov regarding the twitters and communication controversies... not sure where exactly it was posted originally but I do believe this offer some of his POV on the Yonji incident; well it doesn't justify anything... just thought it was an interesting read"It just so happened that [Yonjin] would not stop tweeting me" - He sent one tweet, then just replied as Saijee replied.
except that even 4chan understands that indie=/=doujin culture and all the other topics brought up in this thread
I am still curious if they are allowed donations and if selling from their own site via paypal is allowed
I still don't see how he commenting there first means he is ignoring here. Facebook and youtube have a lot more visual views then here, and it makes sense to prioritize answering there. I am sure he will come here as soon as he can.I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.
I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.
I believe that donations in the sense of "pure support", without any reciprocation, would be legal. As for selling on a personal site, I can't think of whether that's allowed. All I know is that the notion of donationware was brought up.
The whole debacle is over. The game is going to be made. And frankly, you guys have been so harsh on Saijee that I see why he hasn't kept up with this thread. MotK has zero entitlement to their attention. We are not an official authority, and yes I include myself in this of course. We are a fan community like any other, and while yes we were giving good advice, whining and sulking like kids about Saijee prioritizing his main channels of communication is, well, childish and entitled. Would it have been a good idea to read this thread? Yes. Should you use this as an excuse not to speak diplomatically and just rage at him while insisting you can sound however you want because you are offering advice? No. I think most of this issue could have been discussed without the vitriol and snark. But of course this is the internet and nobody seems to care about tone.
This post doesn't apply to all people in the thread, of course. But I expected MotK to act more reasonably than this. After all, "I'm just being honest" is not an excuse.
I am not sure quantity is better than quality in this case, especially when we are talking about Youtube and Facebook comments. People have been trying their hardest in the last pages to help him and try to find solutions, but he said himself he didn't read anything that has been written. Unless a miracle happens and Youtube and Facebook comments suddenly become an intelligent and reliable source, I think he is better off using his time to discuss and think with the people that know about this kind of project over here instead of answering to everybody in a non-moderated comment section.
The whole debacle is over. The game is going to be made. And frankly, you guys have been so harsh on Saijee that I see why he hasn't kept up with this thread. MotK has zero entitlement to their attention. We are not an official authority, and yes I include myself in this of course. We are a fan community like any other, and while yes we were giving good advice, whining and sulking like kids about Saijee prioritizing his main channels of communication is, well, childish and entitled. Would it have been a good idea to read this thread? Yes. Should you use this as an excuse not to speak diplomatically and just rage at him while insisting you can sound however you want because you are offering advice? No. I think most of this issue could have been discussed without the vitriol and snark. But of course this is the internet and nobody seems to care about tone.I'll speak for myself that I have been indeed harsh but that is because I disapprove his methods and way of posting. Coming over here and saying this is (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158120.html#msg1158120) wrong in all directions. And I take that as a form of insult.
This post doesn't apply to all people in the thread, of course. But I expected MotK to act more reasonably than this. After all, "I'm just being honest" is not an excuse.
This may be true, as far as reading intelligent discussion is concerned, but Saijee is basically obligated to control the situation on Facebook and Youtube first. This is because that is where the bulk of his contributors are. As of right now, the first thing that has to be done is assuaging the fears of those whose money FSS has taken. After that situation is under control, Saijee can return his thoughts to distribution, development, and the other problems outlined in this thread.After rereading this post I had to quote it to state that this is indeed important as well. Hence I said above "communication is the key" and "just let us know".
they are forced to sell only at anime conventions, or get a booth at a doujin con in japan, which is not very easy at all.
we are trying to give constructive criticism while trying to learn whats going on
However, I do have to agree with Alcoraiden that the incident seems resolved.
WiiU misunderstanding -> Solved. Blogs have been adjusted or reblogged. I've also seen tweets going around about this.
Crowdfunding not in line with Touhou's fan creation rules -> Solved. Seems FSS had contact with them and according to the transcript from Tohosubs this has been explained.
I also noted Yonjin-san tweeting about the video message from FSS so that news is circling around in the eastern fandom I guess.
So, that leaves no further incidents or issues. If I am not mistaking?
I'm sure they can get someone like N-Forza to help distribute the game if he's willing to.
Also, can anyone please clarify how, exactly, this game will be distributed, i.e., will it abide ZUN's guidelines here for doujin distribution?
NForza has already offered to try and sell this game as a physical copy.Ye, Forza had offered it in page 8. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1157898.html#msg1157898) For those who missed it.
I guess setting up a section at doujin events (like Reitaisai) and of course, giving due credit to ZUN for the usage of his characters and general musical works, would fit under the definition of legal distribution.
EDIT: at least that's what I gather from his official guidelines on distribution of derivative works.
I think the question is whether the game can be sold online. The rules regarding that are still in the making, if I remember correctly, and it was already stated that distributing the game as donationware was okay. Also worth mentioning is that there are numerous Touhou fangames all over the internet distributed using that method.
Addendum: if the game is to be sold, the only 100%-legal method would be through physical media distributed at doujin conventions. The alternative would be to offer it for free on a personal hosting service.
なので問題点を整理すると
・クラウドファンディングで出資を集めた。(同人活動は非営利が前提)
・同人や東方を知らない人達の集まる場に同人作品を出した。(ガイドライン違反)
・現時点で認められないダウンロード販売を公言した。(ガイドライン違反) この3つでしょうか
So to summarize the problems:
* They used crowdfunding. (Non-commercial is a given for doujin activities)
* They put out a doujin work where there are people who aren't familiar with doujin or Touhou. (guideline violation)
* Announced download sales, which is not currently allowed. (guideline violation) I would say these three.
...
ついでに話すと、今回の事件に対するひとつの解決策としては
1. Indiegogoを中止する
2. 東方ProjectのFANしかいないクローズな場で説明する
3. クローズな場でdonationwareとして無料で公開し募金を募る。
です
And I may as well mention: One solution to this case would be to
1. cancel Indiegogo,
2. provide an explanation in a non-public setting where there are only fans of the Touhou Project,
3. and offer it for free as a donationware in a non-public setting.
People who know how: I'd rather wait for a clear written explanation in Japanese, but if this video starts getting attention among Japanese fans on Twitter, please help undo any misunderstanding, possibly by linking to this partial transcript: http://pastebin.com/10tvAKjs
Saijee, I have to stress that it's still extremely important to communicate with Japanese fans to avoid any misunderstanding. Please don't lose the information war again.
06:22
He explained, while Shanghai Alice's copyright term stated that, though it is not technically written in policy, crowdfunding is not recognized as a valid mean to support a project because it is an investment, and those investment methods are not tolerated.
the guidelines here seem to be pretty clear with regards to where online distribution takes place.
I kinda have a suspicion that like the "commercial" vs "corporate" translation thing, there is a difference between offering "online distribution (any downloads)" and "online distribution (publishing via Steam, etc)" If one of the Japanese speakers could shed some light on this it'd probably help a bunch of people in this thread.If I am not mistaking, Cuc had explained it here: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158129.html#msg1158129 Hope that answers your question, somewhat.
So am I getting this right?
You're going to receive the money from indiegogo and refund it manually. But you are offering the alternative to not refund and the people who do not refund will still get their backer rewards?
Because that's still you using crowdfunding and thus you're still going against what you appear to have agreed on with ZUN and/or his associates.
I'm just wondering about one detail of the video released. You say that people can refuse the reimbursement and retain the perk. How is this any different from the crowdfunding in the first place? If people were willing to donate, they most likely wouldn't take it back and you were clearly told to bring down the crowdfunding. Please explain your reasoning on the matter.
Amazon Marketplace
Phew. Adrenaline fading. Glad this has gotten a resolution.
I find it a little despairing that ZUN is continuing to hold with his "don't sell on primarily foreign channels," because it's kind of hard for Western Touhou folks who don't know Japanese to distribute their stuff, then. Awkward at the very least. But in the end I believe ZUN played this very kindly and fairly, what with his clearing the project while stipulating specifically what he did and didn't want done. Good all around.
I imagine Saijee is very worn out from all this, between the tension of the situation and how he was running around like a headless chicken trying to solve this and get the word out, etc. I bet he'll show up when he's rested and gotten his everything back together. At least, I hope. It'll be nice to have some postmortem conversations, so to speak.
I guess I had a few questions left over...
- How is he going to finish in a year? Wasn't the point of the crowdfunding to help him do that?
- Is From Soy Sauce going to release expansions with more characters, etc. after the game is done, to make up for the lack of stretch funding they might've otherwise made and the fact that people were super enthused about getting more characters?
- Along that vein, will improvements/patches/etc be made post-official-release?
So near as I could tell through all the voice modulating (sorry to be this person, but those added effects made it really difficult for me to understand what was being said) is that people who want to maintain their perks can refuse the refund. I'm mildly surprised this is allowable by ZUN's guidelines: whatever amount of refund is refused by the original donator still amounts to crowdfunding in the end.
In addition to my previous post, this was what Kilga also pointed out:
Is it not possible for them to simply go into that donationware style as mentioned before?
Phew. Adrenaline fading. Glad this has gotten a resolution.
I find it a little despairing that ZUN is continuing to hold with his "don't sell on primarily foreign channels," because it's kind of hard for Western Touhou folks who don't know Japanese to distribute their stuff, then. Awkward at the very least. But in the end I believe ZUN played this very kindly and fairly, what with his clearing the project while stipulating specifically what he did and didn't want done. Good all around.
I imagine Saijee is very worn out from all this, between the tension of the situation and how he was running around like a headless chicken trying to solve this and get the word out, etc. I bet he'll show up when he's rested and gotten his everything back together. At least, I hope. It'll be nice to have some postmortem conversations, so to speak.
I guess I had a few questions left over...
- How is he going to finish in a year? Wasn't the point of the crowdfunding to help him do that?
- Is From Soy Sauce going to release expansions with more characters, etc. after the game is done, to make up for the lack of stretch funding they might've otherwise made and the fact that people were super enthused about getting more characters?
- Along that vein, will improvements/patches/etc be made post-official-release?
Donationware is meant for the game to be given out for free, not the money.
Yes, but by giving the game out for free and taking the previous donations as donations for that case would that not achieve the same results?
Or am I missing something.
For the record: https://www.facebook.com/fromsoysauce/posts/832714640123144Still doesn't explain the fact that no matter what the funders want, it remains a crowdfunded project.
Still doesn't explain the fact that no matter what the funders want, it remains a crowdfunded project.
I'm having trouble understanding. They can't refund because of indiegogo? Or they can but the issue is that some backers will refuse the refund?
Backers can/will refuse and that brings it back to step one unless this is a exception.
Well, if a refund is offered and refused, that doesn't still count as crowdfunding, I think. Near as I can tell, people are permitted to donate if they so choose, the dev just can't actively ask for money.
On the other hand, if they still allow for monetary contributions, but contributors don't get anything out of it, i.e. actual donations, they wouldn't be running foul of guidelines.
Well, if a refund is offered and refused, that doesn't still count as crowdfunding, I think. Near as I can tell, people are permitted to donate if they so choose, the dev just can't actively ask for money.Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:
There is actually little to no confusion to be honest.
Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:
"Waiting for each of the donor to ask the refund is unrealistic, then there's no other way than to forcefully return all of it to the donor. He should just transfer them all back, regardless of what the donators say. The important thing is that all the money gathered through IGG will have to be returned to the donators,every cent of it."
This actually indeed the problem. FSS shouldn't be offering anything to the funders/supporters because that is still violating the guidelines.
What FSS needs to do is refund every single penny/cent first. Ditch the whole crowdfunding thing then continue his demo/dev. Only that way the game will return to its "Doujin" character because originally the game was made by his own efforts. It isn't really hard to understand this. People just keep adding noise and making it complicated.
There's a problem with that.
IGG has rules of their own.
They aren't exactly offering this because they want to, they kinda have to.
So you're saying they literally can't refund the donors? I think there's no way that's realistic, because once you get money you can do with it however you please. Forcibly giving it back to those who paid it, as in transferring it back to their bank accounts, shouldn't and wouldn't be a problem at all.
If IGG still required the terms of donating, e.g. "the perks", to be fulfilled, I don't see how it would be a problem after the money is refunded in full to those who donated. It's the best of both worlds: neither TSA nor IGG's rules are violated.
At this point, after ZUN's folk and FSS have hashed things out, that would look really aggressive on Team Shanghai Alice's part. I'm not sure that would fly at this point unless something else huge happened.
https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/527456-Following-Up-and-Sending-Perks
Hm, it seems you're right on the part that it doesn't matter if they do get refunds so long as the perks themselves are fulfilled.
I cannot see how it would be "aggressive" on the part of the game creator to have their copyright honored, under guidelines a lot looser than many if not most game creators would set up, by having unauthorized crowdfunded money refunded to people who would still be free to donate their share all over again anyway.
There is actually little to no confusion to be honest.
Well I've been in touch with several people regarding this and one of their opinions sounded like this:
"Waiting for each of the donor to ask the refund is unrealistic, then there's no other way than to forcefully return all of it to the donor. He should just transfer them all back, regardless of what the donators say. The important thing is that all the money gathered through IGG will have to be returned to the donators,every cent of it."
This actually indeed the problem. FSS shouldn't be offering anything to the funders/supporters because that is still violating the guidelines.
What FSS needs to do is refund every single penny/cent first. Ditch the whole crowdfunding thing then continue his demo/dev. Only that way the game will return to its "Doujin" character because originally the game was made by his own efforts. It isn't really hard to understand this. People just keep adding noise and making it complicated.
i honestly hope that ZUN would shut theprojectcrowdfunding campaign down just for the sake of making that refund much easier
Speaking for myself, I don't want to see the project SHUT DOWN. If it'll abide the guidelines, awesome.
I don't really want the entire project to be called off. Shutting down the campaign would be enough, right?
There's digital distribution and just selling stuff through an online store.
In the case of digital distribution aimed at an audience wider than Japan, it doesn't matter who owns the store/site. Even if it's your own webpage, if you make it available to download, you have to give it away or treat it as "donationware".
For physical media, it can be from any store that sells doujin works (i.e. Diverse Direct sells a few Touhou rearrangement albums, and they ship worldwide) or your own private shop.
Yeah, IIRC, ZUN is not considering Steam, but he is pondering the idea of digital distribution for his games in *some* fashion.
So let me see if I've got this all right, reading the thread and all: Saijee's required to attempt to refund all the IGG money to stay in compliance with the ZUN guidelines, the IGG contributors are not required to accept said refunds, and regardless of whether or not the IGG contributors accept said refunds, Saijee's required to eventually deliver on all of the perks that were presented on IGG to stay in compliance with IGG guidelines, and the only way Saijee can distribute the final product is either through direct sale of physical copies or free download? Did I get everything in there right?
<summary>
Saijee has said that he will automatically refund everyone's money *unless* they reply to his email saying he should keep their money as a donation. So anyone who is not intending to donate to the cause, or even who doesn't happen to respond, will get a refund. I'm guessing letting donors refuse a refund is just preventing the extra step of "they receive money and then give it right back."I don't mean to play devil's advocate here but it seems like if someone donated, they'd have no reason not to let FSS keep the donation in the first place. It's like if IGG had a "take back your donation" button, which nobody would use unless they made their donation by accident or something. And that being the case, these donations were obtained through means that don't conform to doujin rules....
Saijee has said that he will automatically refund everyone's money *unless* they reply to his email saying he should keep their money as a donation. So anyone who is not intending to donate to the cause, or even who doesn't happen to respond, will get a refund. I'm guessing letting donors refuse a refund is just preventing the extra step of "they receive money and then give it right back."Actually a bit of changes, now Saijee has just stated on FSS FB Page that due to Indiegogo policy, you now HAVE TO REQUEST FOR REFUND PERSONALLY in order to actually be refunded back.
Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.
Actually a bit of changes, now Saijee has just stated on FSS FB Page that due to Indiegogo policy, you now HAVE TO REQUEST FOR REFUND PERSONALLY in order to actually be refunded back.That is according to normal procedures. Like people want to cancel their funding or adjust the amount (give less), they have to handle it with the campaign holder.
...not sure about the detail of the policy but now there's that, FSS stated that they will send out emails regarding this changes to all contributor tomorrow so they can reply to it to be of valid status to receive refunding
Thank you, I checked it out.
So here is the thing. When FSS talked to TSA and I asked them what the problem was and the only thing that they said was they wanted the campaign to be canceled. They actually did not specify any way whatsoever how the money that had already been collected should be handled. They wanted one thing, and one thing only, and that was to cancel the campaign. The whole thing about us reimbursing each donor is a decision made completely by FSS alone. Not a recommendation by TSA. I understand we will fall short a few dollars because indigogo get's a share of the money. That is going to be filled by me personally.
Anyhow, in order to become as far out of the woods as possible. FSS decided to reimburse the donors even though TSA mentioned nothing of it. Also, we are encouraging and making reimbursement a primary option. I don't by any standards want to get into a legal battle with Zun. However, I've talked to a few law student friends of mine and a few Professors, legally FSS is bound by the perks promised in IGG. For the few that want to keep their perk, FSS literally has no say in it and must continue to carry out the service. FSS is an American based entity and IGG is an American based company published in San Francisco. And thus, not Japanese, but American law is to be followed regarding IGG and FSS, and IGG law states our allegiance is obligated to that of our supporters in whatever service we promised.
Also, since TSA finished with giving us permission after laying down their many restrictions, those private agreements and conversations are documented in gmail and should it ever come to any big legal conundrum, The notice that has been on the FSS website for years now states that any legal matter or issue someone has with FSS will be had in the state of Oklahoma in our local district Oklahoma City. Meaning if Zun suddenly changes his mind and wants to sue FSS, then he has to come here, in our court to do it. And the argument would be as follows: Did you give them permission to make the game? Yes. Did you specify how they were to cancel the campaign? No. Did you specify in your guidelines that individuals cannot use crowd funding or investment methods? No. What is your claim? They went against the Doujin Spirit. Why didn't you warn them of that before the campaign? I didn't check my email. And at that point the case is over. The Gmail can be brought up as proof and the case will be closed.
As far as my understanding goes to in terms of Japanese culture. Personal agreements are powerful and his personal team and FSS have an agreement in writing electronically. So I doubt he will take action.
However if he does, there are many many other things that stack up against him. For example FSS gave Zun many opportunities (Also electronically documented through gmail) to have foresight in knowing that we plan to launch the campaign. We reasonably attempted to contact Zun through the email that Zun stated was best to contact him on his own website. Whether it be because he forgot about his email, or whether he chose to ignore it, in addition to the emails we sent, Touhou smash was making headlines on many articles before the campaign launched and to argue that he was still somehow unaware of the project is farfetched. Zun waited till after FSS made 5 or 6 attempts of contacting him through email, youtube, and twitter to finally send his copyright team to discuss things with us. The fact that he chose to ignore these attempts to host a discussion and opportunities to have avoided the whole problem stack very badly against him in American law.
In short, FSS and TSA have a personal agreement and acknowledgement of what the other is doing. The likelihood that TSA will take further action is very unlikely since the only requirement they have requested has been fulfilled.
The campaign has been canceled in most possible way you can cancel it, the perks and all content have been removed, and even if we wanted to continue the campaign there is no way publicity would let that work. So FSS has officially fulfilled their end of the bargain to TSA.
The issue regarding the perks, refunding and cancellation has been also addressed on youtube and this is how Itohkuni responded:
-snip-
I don't think FSS is understanding any of this lol.
FSS still didn't provide actual proof of the approval. They have been acting shady as hell about this. As if they are holding back information. Yet Saijee claimed he wasn't holding anything back. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158120.html#msg1158120) Sounds like poor lies to me.
So here is the thing. When FSS talked to TSA and I asked them what the problem was and the only thing that they said was they wanted the campaign to be canceled. They actually did not specify any way whatsoever how the money that had already been collected should be handled. They wanted one thing, and one thing only, and that was to cancel the campaign.
You're already in a "legal battle". You're not complying with the guidelines. Ignorance?
Anyhow, in order to become as far out of the woods as possible. FSS decided to reimburse the donors even though TSA mentioned nothing of it. Also, we are encouraging and making reimbursement a primary option. I don't by any standards want to get into a legal battle with Zun.
A copyright claim from ZUN fixes all this.
However, I've talked to a few law student friends of mine and a few Professors, legally FSS is bound by the perks promised in IGG. For the few that want to keep their perk, FSS literally has no say in it and must continue to carry out the service. FSS is an American based entity and IGG is an American based company published in San Francisco. And thus, not Japanese, but American law is to be followed regarding IGG and FSS, and IGG law states our allegiance is obligated to that of our supporters in whatever service we promised.
Also, since TSA finished with giving us permission after laying down their many restrictions, those private agreements and conversations are documented in gmail and should it ever come to any big legal conundrum,Also still no proof has been provided of the actual permission. Information is still being held back. We don't know what the agreement is, you could have misinterpret the actual message as well.
I think one of our law-members can reply on this part.
The notice that has been on the FSS website for years now states that any legal matter or issue someone has with FSS will be had in the state of Oklahoma in our local district Oklahoma City. Meaning if Zun suddenly changes his mind and wants to sue FSS, then he has to come here, in our court to do it. And the argument would be as follows: Did you give them permission to make the game? Yes. Did you specify how they were to cancel the campaign? No. Did you specify in your guidelines that individuals cannot use crowd funding or investment methods? No. What is your claim? They went against the Doujin Spirit. Why didn't you warn them of that before the campaign? I didn't check my email. And at that point the case is over. The Gmail can be brought up as proof and the case will be closed.
Doesn't changes the fact Saijee launched the crowdfunding before the permission. It doesn't matter whether you have to wait 1000 years. No permission doesn't mean you have the right to continue and ignore ZUN. Which you did, countless times.
However if he does, there are many many other things that stack up against him. For example FSS gave Zun many opportunities (Also electronically documented through gmail) to have foresight in knowing that we plan to launch the campaign. We reasonably attempted to contact Zun through the email that Zun stated was best to contact him on his own website. Whether it be because he forgot about his email, or whether he chose to ignore it, in addition to the emails we sent, Touhou smash was making headlines on many articles before the campaign launched and to argue that he was still somehow unaware of the project is farfetched. Zun waited till after FSS made 5 or 6 attempts of contacting him through email, youtube, and twitter to finally send his copyright team to discuss things with us. The fact that he chose to ignore these attempts to host a discussion and opportunities to have avoided the whole problem stack very badly against him in American law.
The campaign has been canceled in most possible way you can cancel it, the perks and all content have been removed, and even if we wanted to continue the campaign there is no way publicity would let that work. So FSS has officially fulfilled their end of the bargain to TSA.The campaign hasn't been cancelled, because the thing is still on IGG. You're not cancelling it, you're letting the campaign end, cashing in the money then offering people the voluntary refund. That is the main problem being pressed.
The issue regarding the perks, refunding and cancellation has been also addressed on youtube and this is how Itohkuni responded:What a nightmare.
-snip-
I don't think FSS is understanding any of this lol.
Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). [...] If any Campaign Owner is unable to fulfill any of its commitments to Contributors (including delivering any Perks), the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions.
Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner.
*Edit:No worries. It was also asked on IRC:
Helepolis, sorry if I'm being dumb, but who is Itohkuni to FSS, and where did you find Itohkuni's response from?
-snip-Thanks Helepolis. I figured who Itohkuni is based on the information you provided.
You know what really bothers me about all this? Some of the Youtube/Facebook comments in support of FSS that are essentially saying ZUN's rules are dumb and he's a xenophobic asshole.Pertinence of Youtube/Facebook comments are like 1:100. Those two sites should never be a place to discuss anything important.
Youtube and Facebook aren't exactly the holy grail of good comments on the internet...it's expected we'll get strange people there I guess.
Is ZUN showing signs of taking legal action or are we now just discussing hypotheticals?
I'm trying really hard to stay out of this, but no one else is saying it: in no sane country can you be contractually bound to perform an illegal activity. If one does not follow ZUN's rules it becomes copyright infringement, public intent is as good as doing so. IGG can't force FSS to fullfill their perks and infringe on copyright.
This is totally correct, but the only way IGG can be notified of the infringement is for ZUN himself or an authorized representative of him to submit a copyright claim to shut down the campaign. Until then, they have no knowledge of any infringement because they don't proactively monitor the content of campaigns (afaik).
Furthermore, I don't buy the excuse that FSS is legally obligated to deliver Perks and not refund if "asked" by individual contributors:Like Mr. T says: Jibba Jabba.Quote from: https://www.indiegogo.com/about/termsCampaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner.
Meanwhile, FSS is currently presenting the situation as: they will refund the contributions by default, unless asked in the email they send out to specifically keep the Perk and not be refunded. However, I think that this obfuscates the truth and implies "well, it's ok if you still want the Perk and for us to keep the money, just ask us", which you would expect many people to go for (and from the campaign comments, people are eating up that rhetoric). Instead, what should be said is that they've been asked to take down the campaign by representatives for Team Shanghai Alice and refund all contributions, and that if the contributor wants to legally enforce FSS to fulfill their Perk or offer something similar, that they have little choice but to comply. Meanwhile, fulfilling their Perk does not seem to preclude refunding their contributions, either.
Speaking of that, perhaps I should just find a method to relay a proper message to Yonjin-san or Ruw-san of this all and alert them about the deal with the "cancellation" and violation of the guidelines.
Ha, remember when Saijee said that the Touhou GS Kickstarter being cancelled was completely different from other Kickstarters being taken down due to copyright claims? Seems like he's bound to eat those words soon.Well he was technically right about that. That Kickstarter was not taken down by an official copyright claim but the developers decided in light of ZUN's hesitation to approve it (or outright disapproval) to cancel it themselves. There were also a variety of other problems as well.
It isn't that the brakes on this train don't work. It is just that Saijee refuses to use the brakes.this situation isn't exactly at the point of no return, and the optimist in me still believes that a turn for the worst can be avoided. How that happens is well-beyond my reach, so all I can do is give suggestions. If it does end up that TSA flexes their legal muscle and steps in with a filing of copyright infringement, I can't expect anything good (in terms of TSSB development) to come out of that. On the other hand, I would be in complete support of TSA's actions should they choose to go down that route, since from what I can gather this bad ending can still be avoided, and that it was deliberately chosen to be left on its crash-course.
Speaking of that, perhaps I should just find a method to relay a proper message to Yonjin-san or Ruw-san of this all and alert them about the deal with the "cancellation" and violation of the guidelines.
Ok, I'm making a post here because it seems to be impossible to get you to come back to the shrinemaiden (motk) forums.I just posted this comment on that video. Since they seem to be ignoring this thread, maybe they'll respond to me there.
It is my understanding that you are afraid to automatically and forcibly reimburse people as it may go against IGG's rules to deliver on campaign promises. This isn't completely true, however. As long as you continue to keep these donations in exchange for campaign perks (regardless of whether the campaign is still officially going) you are STILL violating ZUN's guidelines, which is also COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. IGG cannot legally force you to engage in copyright infringement. I understand you may be caught in a trap where you cannot please both TSA and IGG, but I implore that you treat TSA as the more important party in this situation. Again, there shouldn't be any way for IGG to force you to keep campaign promises if doing so violates copyrights.
Also, please don't give me any of that "oh well TSA only told us to shut the project down, not to reimburse people." Come on, you have to know damn well that that was implied, seeing as you still are breaching guidelines by using money raised by crowdfunding. You're abusing a loophole in what was said in the email so that you can keep the money for the game. Even if that's not what's actually happening, that's what it's starting to look like.
At this point, although I know it's unlikely, I wish TSA would just hit this IGG campaign with a DMCA takedown notice, so that way the money will HAVE to all be given back and this mess will be over. You keep digging yourself into a bigger hole every day that this catastrophe continues.
Please, just reimburse everyone, cancel perks, and allow everyone who still wants to contribute to do so, on the understanding that you can't promise special rewards anymore. If people actually stubbornly demand their perks, you can deal with them on a case by case basis. Explain to them that promising the perks is going against ZUN's guidelines. I anticipate that there is a very low likelihood of that actually happening in light of this controversy, but you seem to be assuming that nearly everyone will demand their perks.
I REALLY want this game to succeed and for it to be done in a way the pleases TSA. I'm sorry if I sound bitter in this comment but I really hope you read and consider all I said.
their fans seem to be taking a "ZUN is being a dick to FSS" attitude because they're only seeing one side of the story
Blah.... This is just depressing. I think things can still be salvaged but I doubt the effort that fixes this situation will be on FSS's part.
I just posted this comment on that video. Since they seem to be ignoring this thread, maybe they'll respond to me there.
Edit: Tell me if there's anything I should add/change
The "nearly everyone will demand their perks" notion is faulty, because in my opinion the donors can't demand anything if a refund is made. Please note that's not something wrong about your post. I just want to reiterate that fact again.But apparently that's part of IGG's rules. Each campaign runner must deliver on all promises made, and apparently people can demand that a perk be given to them. But I suppose it's not clear whether reimbursement negates that claim or not. In any case, the guidelines say to work with each person to come to a mutual understanding. There is nothing, however, that states that this arrangement must include the original perks if they are not possible to give (if that makes any sense, wording might not be very good)
apparently people can demand that a perk be given to them
work with each person to come to a mutual understanding. There is nothing, however, that states that this arrangement must include the original perks if they are not possible to give (if that makes any sense, wording might not be very good)
(not really a question for you unless you know the answer to it)Actually, I think you're right. The IGG rules that were quoted by FSS earlier are not clear on that. In fact, it can be understood from that that a refund is the absolute last resort that a campaign runner can use to placate the backers. Nowhere does it say a backer has the right to demand perks if a full refund is being given, just as someone who bought a recalled product cannot demand the product back if they're being refunded.
Under what grounds? I still fail to see how any sort of demand can be made, at least one that's legally-backed, if contributions are refunded in full.
I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.
It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.
I still haven't read anything on this forum including whatever the post immediately before this one is. People on YT have been saying it looks like "I'm not coming back to MotK".
It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.
I still haven't read anything on this forum including whatever the post immediately before this one is. People on YT have been saying it looks like "I'm not coming back to MotK".I understand that this thread has a lot of stuff to be read and I had thought that you were just focusing your attention elsewhere. But until your post now, I had no way of knowing that for sure. Like Helepolis said earlier, making a brief post like that to let us know you're still there would have eased our concerns. Take your time reading the posts before answering, we can wait.
It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.
Still going off of YT comments and haven't read anything here:Can we see this email? We don't doubt your accuracy per say but would like to read its contents for ourselves. We might interpret his words differently.
As far as IGG's thing about copyright problems. In the email Shanghai Alice sent us: Fumio included a concise and clear paragraph that explained that this is not an issue of copyright.
Fumio included a concise and clear paragraph that explained that this is not an issue of copyright.
Hey guys,He is, I'd answer but I don't know the best place to start myself.
Saijee is asking around on Youtube what page of this thread he should start reading on since someone told him he should review the thread before issuing a Report listing frequently asked questions. I'm not sure because alot of it was circuitous and we have periodic summaries of information. Any ideas?
He should just read from whenever he stopped reading which is a while ago...
Edit- Page 11 has the translated Yonjin conversation on it. I think that might be a good starting point. You guys?I think his last post was halfway down page 12.
Hey guys,You're, jokign right? Saijee is fully responsible for this thread himself. Expected he is 100% aware of what is happening from page 1 until #. After all, he is the one who had to announce the Crowdfunding launch here. Sorry, not buying this.
Saijee is asking around on Youtube what page of this thread he should start reading on since someone told him he should review the thread before issuing a Report listing frequently asked questions. I'm not sure because alot of it was circuitous and we have periodic summaries of information. Any ideas?
It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.そのうその話をやめてくれませんか？
It's really not that, there is a lot of reading to do and I want to give it my undivided attention but all yesterday I had literally been so busy responding to FB Gmail and YT that I didn't have the time to give this topic the undivided attention that it deserves.
Guys I've started reading thing now and will follow up with a big post when I'm done. I am writing point to address everything chronologically as I am reading.Thank you. I think a lot of the more visible irritation in this thread came from not hearing back, so it might be a bit heated, but I and many others here very much appreciate you taking the time to address these concerns.
I think a lot of the more visible irritation in this thread came from not hearing back, so it might be a bit heated.
...they did not authorize us to release the email publicly.
What do you think the safest place to distribute it would be?
So we are considering not making this a Touhou game after all. Change the graphics, character names and looks and release it as a different name entirely.
The project seems to be very risky even after getting the green light for many reasons regarding development. So we are considering not making this a Touhou game after all. Change the graphics, character names and looks and release it as a different name entirely. The IGG supporters would be made aware of this, and it would further encourage them to retract their perk and hopefully clear up that problem as well.
The guidelines are not a legally binding document. It literally does not matter what they say or do not say, you cannot use them to protect yourself.
The guidelines are merely a communication from ZUN indicating the kinds of copyright violations he does not intend to pursue. Publishing the guidelines does not relinquish his right to do so.
著作権者の許諾（63条）があれば、許諾の範囲内で二次創作物を作成する限りにおいて著作権侵害となることはない。公式ウェブサイトなどで、頒布方法や性表現の有無など一定の条件において二次創作を認めるガイドラインの提示を行っている法人[11][12]や個人の著作権者もおり、ガイドラインに従って権利者に認められた範囲内で利用する場合は侵害にはならない。You can read 著作権法第63条 for yourself here (http://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/%E8%91%97%E4%BD%9C%E6%A8%A9%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC63%E6%9D%A1).
Touhou Project is not under Creative Commons or any similar license. As Yonjin told Saijee from the start, you do not seem to understand this difference. This is related to the guidelines on derivative works only on a social, informal level. You do not possess the rights, period. The derivative guidelines give freedoms, not restrict.
Crowdfunding is not explicitly covered by ZUN's guidelines, so it's a copyright infringement.I think you guys are missing the point. The way I read it, there's no copyright infringement going on. FSS specifically asked whether copyright was the issue, and TSA said it's not. FSS was wrong in the first place for assuming crowdfunding was okay, but now that issue is solved. The problem now is something different (though not totally unrelated). Of course, whether you believe that is up to you- if it is true, there's no way anyone can prove it (because of email privacy laws).
I'd also highly recommend getting a PR guy on board with y'all, to save yourself some future heartaches. It doesn't matter what kind of person one is, anyone will eventually stick a foot in their mouth, no matter how good intentioned their actions may be.
But in either case, your fundamental point, also raised by Drake earlier, still stands:This. By default, a project like TSSB is illegal. If ZUN hasn't made an explicit exception for it, you'll be laughed out of any court.QuoteTouhou Project is not under Creative Commons or any similar license. As Yonjin told Saijee from the start, you do not seem to understand this difference. This is related to the guidelines on derivative works only on a social, informal level. You do not possess the rights, period. The derivative guidelines give freedoms, not restrict.Crowdfunding is not explicitly covered by ZUN's guidelines, so it's a copyright infringement.
If there is truly no copyright infringement taking place and you have fulfilled your part of the agreement, I would like to know why Ruw was tweeting about the crowdfunding campaign not being canceled. Unless you are prepared to say Helepolis was not being truthful (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158478.html#msg1158478)?
The email has been sent out, a copy of the email was published on the campaign page in both EN and JP. What do you think about this direction toward a solution?
Seriously, getting a pr guy can help alot. Also, have you considered possibly allowing the eastern folk a free character via poll, etc. An act of goodwill would go a ways I'd say?
The email has been sent out, a copy of the email was published on the campaign page in both EN and JP.
What do you think about this direction toward a solution?
force ZUN to stop allowing Touhou fanworks at all.
Uplus53847
What I meant was for FFS to honour all perks that were given, regardless of refunds.
Ozzie840
+Uplus5384 ah I misunderstood. Yes that should also work too. That might be the best scenario, cant believe I didn't think of it sooner
ItohKuni
That's exactly what we are setting up right now. We are about to send an email "highly" recommending people to accept reimbursement. We are just praying that people accept it because we legally don't have any way to reverse an Indigogo promise if a contributor. We're in the middle of translating everything now for Japanese contributors.
Joe Smith
+ItohKuni Just received the email. So as Ozzie said, does this mean that all perks will be kept intact regardless of donation status?
Reply ?
FromSoySauce
Yes, that is exactly the case. ;)
Reply ?
Joe Smith
+FromSoySauce Great! Any chance you could put out an update with that info, so that other cool peeps could know? That's awesome though, that we're still going to keep our incredibly unique roster.
Reply ?
ItohKuni
Sure, give us a day or two to organize everything. There is a lot of cleaning up to do haha. The unique choices for the roster are part of the reason we wanted to keep it. Some of these characters have had almost no games before this lol
Reply ? 1
Joe Smith
+ItohKuni Woo! Man, this is so exciting. I'm in awe watching you guys kick adversity's ass.
Reply ?
Ozzie840
+ItohKuni
This is very good to hear! I think the controversy will be put to rest if you continue that course of action. Good luck getting this all settled.
Reply ?
I'm in awe watching you guys kick adversity's ass.
Standard ignorant YouTube troll. 11/10 would troll again.
Isn't fulfilling the perks against the rules since they were advertised through IGG?
ライン違反
・同人文化や東方Projectを知らない人も利用する場(Indiegogo)にZUNの許可なく露出させた。 これはクラウドファンディングでないサービスでも批難されます。
[...]
Violations of the Touhou guidelines:
* They exposed the Touhou Project without ZUN's permission in a forum (Indiegogo) used by people who are unfamiliar with the doujin culture or the Touhou Project. This will invite criticism even when the service used is not crowdfunding.
Not trying to be pessimistic, but I'm not too sure about that...
Not trying to be pessimistic, but I'm not too sure about that...
Addendum: To be honest, whether fulfilling the perks is legal or not at this point is totally in the gray, at least to me. I'm just going off of whatever evidence has been presented.
Okay, I got no complaints. People can donate what they want separately, and they're going to take the perks regardless of money and make them happen.
Done and done.
Hello everyone, Shade here,
I just finished reading the whole thread with Dart earlier today and decided that it was really good stuff so I registered and would like to join the discussions.
So nice to meet all of you :)
Thanks Barchetta, that sounds awesome. The only problem I have with volunteers is that TSA asked us to do things within "our own" ability. So I am not sure if volunteer's count as our own ability.
Also, if we were to send another email to TSA. Let's assume it would be the only one we could send. What information do you think would need to be in it?
Hello everyone, Shade here,
I just finished reading the whole thread with Dart earlier today and decided that it was really good stuff so I registered and would like to join the discussions.
So nice to meet all of you :)
Thanks Barchetta, that sounds awesome. The only problem I have with volunteers is that TSA asked us to do things within "our own" ability. So I am not sure if volunteer's count as our own ability.
Also, if we were to send another email to TSA. Let's assume it would be the only one we could send. What information do you think would need to be in it?
"Fumio had pleaded that we complete the game using "all" of our abilities, and went on to state that with that plead, there should be no need for any more questions. Now it should be known by know to ZUN and TSA that "all of our abilities" includes putting games on the Wii U. That was when I posted about that on FB. Because it sounded that way."I disagree on this assumption. "Please do X to the best of your ability" is pretty much a generic phrase indicating that they wish to see the game made, and that you should keep working hard. Even still, "making the game" doesn't additionally mean "also put it onto whatever other platforms".
"While it has always been widely believed that ZUN=TSA, and we thought that too, we were as confused as everyone else to hear of the possibility of other members, and as such were not sure if it was just ZUN or an actual other entity. Now we know better, and now that TSA is a literal team of people."It isn't. ZUN has various people alongside him for various matters, but Team Shanghai Alice has always been just ZUN. Oyamada-san is a business representative, particularly for Korindo Ltd.
"When I was tweeting him, I am not sure if he was talking about TSSB specifically, but I wasn't. I was not because he kept on bringing up "distribution" which was something I have not engaged with, as such all comments of mine were about theoretical other western doujin games in general."I still don't think you grasped quite what he was asking you. I understand the difficulties, and he understands the difficulties, but you should have talked to others about what he was saying. You made it unnecessarily devolve.
"Nothing within the ZUN's policy state that crowd funding or investment are not doujin activities."You still don't understand this. "Doujin" is not something ZUN has command over, nor are the derivative guidelines a complete legal set of rules, where anything outside of this list can be considered a free-for-all. Not at all. I'm still baffled as to why you guys think this list ad verbatim are the only rules you need to follow.
"Then he says you need my permission to sell and distribute (which we did none of)."You are promising the delivery of a product for money, and you make claims that you intend to sell the game. This wouldn't be ambiguous whatsoever if you weren't trying to get funding before you made the game, since if you just made the game first you're forced to get permission, but you're effectively just trying to loophole your way through here and argue that it makes it okay.
"No mentions of sales have been made, and no offering of download sales have occurred. The demo, which is the only download available is and has always been free. Also, accusing FSS for things not stated on the guidelines and admitting that the guidelines need to be updated is... I don't know how fair that sounds, but seems inconsistent at best to us."
"Your right, starting the campaign before ZUN responded was probably a brash decision. It didn't appear though that any guidelines have or would be broken and to our best judgement, based on the lack of mention in the guidelines relating to what we are doing it appeared as if things were OK."You didn't ask. Like, anyone. So much of this was caused because you've been going ahead without asking anyone besides people who have zero context or knowledge of who they're dealing with.
"Also, what is the scope of Doujin? Because the Doujin community arguably permeates the entire world that is aware of Doujin materials including Touhou."Yes! It does! If you plan to make a work taking advantage of other people's material, you better bet people expect these standards to be upheld. I think this is pretty straightforward.
"Done, is as much as possibly a way that Indigogo can be legally canceled."It's likely they weren't aware of this particular point, but it's incredibly obvious they meant to stop incoming funds and refund what's already there. Furthermore not contacting him about this predicament makes it extremely suspicious that you intended to do this so they couldn't impose other explicit conditions.
"What is a non-public setting where only Doujin fans exist? Even if we find that setting, the people involved in the project are mainly overseas, And might not have access to this "non-public setting". They deserve an explanation as well."It's a bit annoying that you seem to be able to read between lines only when it fits you and not when you're trying to make an defense. "Public" here just means somewhere the masses already go to. "Non-public" means somewhere people won't be able to just stumble onto and spread to arbitrary others. A personal website, a dedicated forum, a repository for Touhou stuff; these are all fine locations. Additionally, if you need precise clarification on examples, ASK.
"Even if I did release the email, people could easily assume it's been Photoshopped."No, the point of releasing the email contents is to make sure you've translated it effectively and are interpreting it suitably. Given this, any fabrication by you guys would be really obvious. Besides that, if you've already opted to publicly describe what the contents of the email were, unless there was other important stuff in there, you've already undermined privacy of disclosure. I don't see why you would argue that you can describe what he said but not actually just post what he said.
"We were ensured it wasn't about copyright"I reserve to be skeptical about your interpretation as long as we don't have the email contents as written. I very much think that this is about "you've been given permission, so copyrights are no longer a problem", rather than "we have been absolved of all legal responsibility regarding infringement".
"And, I keep hearing we broke the "Doujin Guidelines", but I can't seem to find these. The closest thing to this seems to be ZUN's guidelines, however I would love to find them and dissect how we broke them."You implicitly agree that you know how doujin culture works when you decided to make and distribute a doujin game. These aren't literally written as something you must agree to in some sort of oath, as others have said. In context, it makes zero sense for anyone to say "we are a doujin circle" without even knowing what that means. Thinking that registering on DLSite makes you a doujin circle makes it really clear you had no idea. If you weren't aware, you really should have asked before trying to crowdfund. I would like to maybe make something more comprehensive in the future, but a lot of discussion throughout this thread covers many key points and paints at least a small picture of the culture.
"In terms of copyright issues, we specifically asked that in the email and they Fumio told us, there is no problem with copyright"There was a problem with copyright when you started the campaign without permission, regardless of the permissions you now have. The point is that this violated guidelines (which aren't even legal permission by themselves; they're promises!), and that claiming that you'd be have an advantage in any hypothetical suit is unfounded. You would very likely lose such a suit.
So you've told Fumio that the IGG drive has been ended and that all money received through it will be refunded (excepting those who insistI want to know the answer to this too, because I am still not convinced.
on you keeping it), and he confirmed that this was okay?
Yeah, I think that starting up a crowdfunding campaign before receiving permission from ZUN, even with recent changes regarding his games and fan games on other platforms, seems like a poor idea. Even saying that you contacted him really doesn't mean anything, because he could have very easily ignored/overlooked it.Crowdfunding project is a bad idea, even worse because you didn't ask permission. Yet were dodging the point that you made a major mistake and weren't admitting it was foolish. Because your prior attitude showed you had no intention of listening to us and you still aren't to be honest. While you say you realise it was bad, you keep defending yourself by spinning around the actual problem. You got warned and alerted by Yonjin-san and Ruw-san for a very good reason. How come you didn't take them serious? Or did you honestly kept that attitude: "You're not ZUN, so w/e" towards even them? Way the go to charm the Eastern people.
What is your take on all this?1) Ask TSA to claim copyright to forcefully cancel the IGG project. There are no 'buts'. And see Drake's post again about the license and why he doesn't buy your excuse.
From Yonjin. Quite long: Keyword is "misunderstanding as official Game of Shanhai Alice" They are using "東方〜"in title first, and using ZUN's face picture.
Yonjin's msg: >また、ゲーム名、及び作品名などはそのまま作品名として使用する事は禁止します。 （キャラ名やゲーム内の単語のままの作品や（博麗霊夢、博麗神社等）、その他公式か どうか紛らわしい物（東方永夜抄外伝等）、私がこれから使用しそうな名前（嘘） は出来るだけ避けてください。）
Continuing. if ZUN think it's not problem, he would ignore it. but this case, they show off abroad service, and it means not all people knows what Touhou is. It's OK to use in game. It doesn't matter if it doesn't cause misunderstanding that as Official Products. Recently, this rule may ignore. because most people(otaku) in Japan already knows Touhou. but, like animation, those contents may reach to peaple who donot know Touhou, it seem not to use "Touhou" in title. ・Campain still exit on IGG and they use ZUN's picture, and it cause misunderstanding that TSBB is official game. especially people, who don't understand what's Touhou, easy to misunderstand. By using Touhou in the title... That's about it, I guess. Of course, it depends on where they'll sell their product. And since they haven't answered Forza, well It's likely that they should change the title
5) That same Tengufriend also said Yonjin-san is stating not to use " Touhou " in your game title. Apparently my Tengufriend says that 東方 name is the problem. It makes it look like it is an official game.That is a very odd request, since a large number of existing released Touhou fangames also use 東方 in their game name.
That is a very odd request, since a large number of existing released Touhou fangames also use 東方 in their game name.
See: List of fangames listed in the english Touhou wiki. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Fangames)
*Edit: I can understand the removal of ZUN's face from the main page though. It makes it seem as if ZUN had a part to play with the campaign. It can be misleading.
Oh, noticed it also recently, see attachment:I think FSS misunderstood the point about Team Shanghai Alice saying that they do not have any copyright problems with the project.
As a minor note about the name of the game (as a potential issue), I personally think that something like "Gensokyou Smash Battles / 幻想郷大乱闘" or "Gensou Smash Battles / 幻想大乱闘" is a better-sounding name.The Storm of Spell Bullets?
As a minor note about the name of the game (as a potential issue), I personally think that something like "Gensokyou Smash Battles / 幻想郷大乱闘" or "Gensou Smash Battles / 幻想大乱闘" is a better-sounding name.
I'll say one thing though.
Since the perks are being done anyways I don't think anyone is keeping their donation.
And something like proof of refunding is fairly easy to prove as paypal and such has a log for it.
Someone brought this to attention recently: http://www.modian.com/project/475.html?s=23
Apparently, a chinese group is doing fundraising to release a game on the PS4. I don't speak Chinese, though, so I cannot say if they have are allowed to or such.
See: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17875.0.html
Yeah I remember there being mention of issues with the Touhou in the title, I don't believe anything has been done about it but (someone) said it's frowned on.True. In a 2013 talk which I should have written a full report about but didn't, ZUN said he prefers people not to put "Touhou" into the titles of fan works, which makes it easier to confuse them with the official works. He probably expressed the same sentiment in other circumstances.
From Yonjin. Quite long:
Keyword is "misunderstanding as official Game of Shanghai Alice". They are using "東方〜"in title first, and using ZUN's face picture.
Yonjin's msg: >また、ゲーム名、及び作品名などはそのまま作品名として使用する事は禁止します。 （キャラ名やゲーム内の単語のままの作品や（博麗霊夢、博麗神社等）、その他公式か どうか紛らわしい物（東方永夜抄外伝等）、私がこれから使用しそうな名前（嘘） は出来るだけ避けてください。）
(Note : The source is this (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Yoyo/1736/t-081-4.html). It's ZUN's guidelines for those that can't bother to login to his homepage. Same thing, really.
In short, the rule said not to use the game name like it's your own.)
If ZUN think it's not a problem, he would ignore it. But in this case, they show it off abroad service, and it means not all people know what Touhou is.
It's OK to use in game. It doesn't matter as long as it's not misunderstood as an Official Products. Recently, this rule may be ignored. That is because most people(otaku) in Japan already knows Touhou. However, like animation, those contents may reach to people who do not know Touhou.
Campaign still exists on IGG and they use ZUN's picture, and that cause a misunderstanding that TSBB is an official game. Especially to people who don't understand what Touhou is. It's easy for them to misunderstand by using Touhou in the title.
... That's about it, I guess. Of course, it depends on where they'll sell their product. And since they haven't answered Forza, well It's likely that they should change the title.
That is a very odd request, since a large number of existing released Touhou fangames also use 東方 in their game name.I asked him this as well, and he said, "Just because it exists, doesn't mean it's ok.". Apparently, that was an issue as well.
See: List of fangames listed in the english Touhou wiki. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Fangames)
To elaborate more on the matter of using "東方" name in the title, first let's tide up Yonjin's explanations
So what he want to say is that using the name "東方", like it's originated from your own doujin game, is not allowed.
I asked him this as well, and he said, "Just because it exists, doesn't mean it's ok". Apparently, that was an issue as well.
Basically, the point is not to make people think yours is the original game, and using the right platform to distribute it.
Like he has explained, it's a bit easier to do over there in Japan, since most people who have any interest in the otaku culture already know Touhou Project is a game from ZUN. Not to mention that they're using the proper platform and doing the proper procedure.
That's why using Touhou name is allowed sometimes in the titles of doujin games.
And to add another thing aside from what Drake and Helepolis has said, I'll focus on the matter of perks.
So, it seems like the dream scenario is:
"The money are all returned, but the perks FSS promised from those money will be kept and made into the game. It's to honor what the fans wanted(bought) out of that IGG campaign."
Which is nice and all, and I honestly don't want to make it into a problem. But unfortunately, like aUsernameIsFineToo had worried about before (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158661.html#msg1158661), it is one.
Those perks are the "product of the crowdfunding campaign". The effect that remains, and I don't think that should be left off as it is.
Even if it's to honor the fans wishes, the fact that it's the product of a crowdfunding campaign still makes it a really grey area. Not to mention that those fans will later donate the returned money and get those promised perks too. That is still, technically, an investment, which is a no no.
Given that the perks they have bought before remains, they're essentially still getting what they paid for. So those fans that will "donate" their money again, will pretty much just paying it back for those perks. Only by that point, it's out of IGG zone.
I'm sorry to say this for the fans who have supported the game, but when they say "cancel the Indiegogo campaign" it means erasing the existence of everything related to the campaign off the face of the earth.
That's the money, AND the perks. (If possible, the memory too, but we can't brainwash everyone now, can we?)
So like Helepolis has said in point 8, FSS need to reset everything, as if the crowdfunding campaign didn't happen. So none of those perks should stay untouched.
You can argue that it's "forbidding FSS from making a game that incorporates fan opinion (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158672.html#msg1158672)" (Yes Disgaeafan1, everything in IGG HAS to be moot), but you've acknowledged, and ZUN/Fumio have said, that putting it in Indiegogo is not alright. That is the compensation that you have to pay for using it. Don't think you can get out of this lightly.
Also remember that you have to make a public announcement(you've done a lot, right?) about this, IN ENGLISH AND JAPANESE, for everyone to see, since as mentioned by Helepolis and cuc, both sides aren't exactly happy with you guys.
Of course, the perks reset is only because it's related to IGG campaign. You are free to make new perks, without involving money, through voting method, tournaments, etc.; like you did before. And the money they want to give you purely stays as donations.Needless to say, you can make a deal with them in private, and we cannot say anything about it. But well, that will be out of our control or ZUN's, and from there on it's your own problem, your honor as human, and your belief/God. I hope you can still be trusted for that not to happen.
So what I can add to solve this, are:
- Return all money. Everything, no exception.
- Erase all perks made in IGG. Every single one of them.
- Make new ones, out of normal vote, etc. However it suits you while still adhering to the guidlines.
- Make the announcement and explanation to everything somewhere so people can see(no video, please. In text). Then FSS can go with the game
- Also, depending on the platform where you'll sell the game, take out the 東方 from the title. Drake have given a nice candidate to replace the title. And don't use ZUN's picture.
Those are what I think needs to be pointed out. I'm open for corrections for anyone who disagrees, and pardon me if I were being rude. Good luck with developing your game.
Perhaps I'm confused.
But by this logic Mima for example can't be a boss character because it was a product of a perk?
I don't believe that's how it works.
if the Campaign is canceled and they still want to use the ideas brought in by fans on their own rights and time how would it be a investment?
An investment of ideas?
If they put it up for vote or tournament again and if Mima is chosen after all money and perk are removed, then adding Mima again is no issue as now it's NOT a result of crowdfunding.
If they put it up for vote or tournament again and if Mima is chosen after all money and perk are removed, then adding Mima again is no issue as now it's NOT a result of crowdfunding.I second this. The point is to cancel the perks. If through whatever new way they come up with characters for the rosters (say, a poll), one of the choices happens to be one of the favorite maidens, then it's fair go as far as I can understand. I could be wrong, though; which I hope I'm not, because that would strike out some relatively unpopular characters like Eiki and Medicine out of the potential roster. :U
This seems to be a grey area to me, given that using 'what happened on Indiegogo stays in Indiegogo' logic, it could be stated that Mima's exposure on the Indiegogo campaign led, in part, to her being voted for.
If they put it up for vote or tournament again and if Mima is chosen after all money and perk are removed, then adding Mima again is no issue as now it's NOT a result of crowdfunding.
EDIT: as long as everything is returned and over with, if put up for a vote those "perks" could come back, but it has to be made clear that it was voted.
What's stopping them from simply saying Mima is a good idea thus will continue being featured?
I personally don't see the point in all this as the character herself being made ISN'T a result of crowdfunding despite the initial idea coming from it.
What's stopping them from simply saying Mima is a good idea thus will continue being featured?
I personally don't see the point in all this as the character herself being made ISN'T a result of crowdfunding despite the initial idea coming from it.
The only thing stopping them is themselves but they would have to understand that Mima was chosen as a result of money from crowdfunding. It does seem a little grey but if they want to play it safe, any character involved should be put to vote (with any other potential character) and see from there.
Yes, she was chosen as a result of crowdfunding.
However because of refunds none of said money is going into the actual content thus it's done in their own ability.
But voting is flawed as people will simply vote for what they paid for and get friends to join in on said voting.
Yes, she was chosen as a result of crowdfunding.
However because of refunds none of said money is going into the actual content thus it's done in their own ability.
But voting is flawed as people will simply vote for what they paid for and get friends to join in on said voting.
But like I said it's up to FSS to decide what to do if she where voted again, but it's technically OK for her to be voted in as long as it's after everything is done with on IGG.
To be honest: The issue regarding further development or character content is related to Game Development and Game Content. Those are secondary worries for FSS and the community and not the scope of the issues Drake, Monhan and I have explained.
Obviously it is given that Saijee needs to redesign his development strategy later on because he first tried to do that through Crowfunding. Like I said and I keep repeating this dozen of times (and will keep doing it). The project has to return entirely to its state before the crowdfunding.
In my opinion: Discussing the perks and everything is noise because they too will be reverted as they are part of the crowdfunding on IGG. Everything should be reverted back to its original state. And that is why Disgaeafan1, there is no reason to collect all problems and relay TSA. There is nothing to be discussed with TSA aside from Kilga's post and the copyright claim to cancel IGG.
I second this. The point is to cancel the perks. If through whatever new way they come up with characters for the rosters (say, a poll), one of the choices happens to be one of the favorite maidens, then it's fair go as far as I can understand. I could be wrong, though; which I hope I'm not, because that would strike out some relatively unpopular characters like Eiki and Medicine out of the potential roster. :U
Frankly, I don't really know. Both possibilities are defendable.
*earperk* Wait a second. So you want to cancel the perks at least in part because it will kick out unpopular characters? Yeah no, I'm going to have to disagree with that general line of thinking. I wince a little at the idea that people might support removing perks just because someone was willing to Favorite Maiden a character they thought was dumb and doesn't fit in the lineup. Hell, I really dislike Tewi and I hope she stays around as fan support too.
(interpretation: you said, you believe canceling the perks is a good idea, you could be wrong, but *you hope you're not because that would remove unpopular characters.* Tell me if I misread.)
<post>
But honestly, the perks' existence post-refund is just the same as "we liked Fan X and figured why the hell not let's put Fan X's chosen character in game." I think now people are going a little far.
No worries. Don't get me wrong, the discussion about development is quite important too because that is the secondary problem following up. Just trying to keep things organised and on track.
I think the best place to discuss that is in the development thread when this thread is concluded.
Hard to say, Saijee has to report on that. We can only speculate:D) Yukari is fooling around again
A) Saijee canceled it themselves
B) Team Shanghai Alice officials has claimed copyright and forced shutdown
C) Something else.
D) Yukari is fooling around again
E) It's a Moriya Shrine Conspiracy
We have all your emails, but we don't have the corresponding values of money per contributor, apart from Paypal.So? What happened?
(http://i.gyazo.com/9798c05707975828e85bebf4fac3cdde.png)it appears that someone other than them did it. TSA would be the most likely to be that "other party", since only they'd be able to take action against it.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/fromsoysauce/posts/834026809991927
Maybe? For some reason, I feel like this might have been a case of an outsider(meaning not TSA) reporting FSS for copy write infringement. I could be wrong though.
I will still be rather displeased if someone reported it because they wanted to rush this, instead of letting FSS and TSA work this out.That is true.
Not to mention that kind of stuff happens all the time on youtube, it's very possible it's a third parties doing.
Oh balls. You mean 4chan has started watching this?Not sure how to do embedded link but
Shit.
It's an archived thread
[url=https://www.shrinemaiden.org/]Maidens of the Kaleidoscope[/url]Which becomes this:That must mean it's pretty important. Threads on 4chan usually don't get archived unless they're significant enough to warrant doing so.Wait, doesn't everyone capable of archiving a thread (https://4archive.org/)?
Wait, doesn't everyone capable of archiving a thread (https://4archive.org/)?
...and why is the thread dead when the last reply was only yesterday anyway... strange
we'll make a youtube video to explain all of the new details.Couldn't you at least make a blog post to go along with it?
Couldn't you at least make a blog post to go along with it?
See: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17875.0.html
Pretty sure that Chinese group got the funding canceled, or something like that. I never even heard of 8chan before, plus if they are similar to 4chan, I take info with a grain of salt.
Why the fascination with just making videos I wonder? Why not both, I mean if your gonna make a video you gotta make a script, your typing out something.
1. PayPal:Source: https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526406-When-Do-I-Get-My-Money-
For Flexible Funding campaigns, contributions made through PayPal are sent to your PayPal account instantly. You will receive a disbursement confirmation from PayPal with each contribution. After the contribution has been sent, your PayPal account will be charged our 9% platform fee by Indiegogo
The campaign is currently removed for Intellectual Property dispute. In the event the campaign is cancelled due to said dispute, a refund will be provided automatically if you contributed via credit card, otherwise further instructions regarding your refund will be sent to you if you contributed via PayPal.
Please note the investigation may take up to 15 business days.
We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you. Thank you for your cooperation, and please let us know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Trust and Safety
Indiegogo
I see, thanks for the heads up.
I hope though that Saijee is also getting the 9% back on each transaction made through paypal. Because this is a dispute/copyright claim, IGG has no right to continue this campaign and therefore has to also revert all payments including fees they had taken. Otherwise that would be a scam from IGG to Saijee for letting him deal with the damage. The campaign never officially ended as well.
Well, awaiting the official reply/video from Saijee before we can conclude this incident.
Could see it going either way really. Either you could say they didn't commit the infringement and therefore can't be held liable and can keep the cash, or that the entirety of the funds was "illgoten" and keeping thier share could count as receiving stolen property.
Edit:
I wonder though what will happen here. It means that IGG has already charged Saijee a fee of 9% over each transaction. Because it says they charge 9% over each contribution. The "pricing" page describes this very vague. So that means Saijee has already lost 9% of each contribution to IGG. If he wants to refund them, it means he will have to pay from his own pocket? Maybe someone can shed a light on this.
so with the IGG campaign fully removed, I think i am forced to get my money back. I was on the fence due to really wanting tewi in, but if I kept my money in, would I be going against ZUN's wish's?
Plus getting back 1600 is nice and can pay for other stuff I am looking at... Any other maiden backers gonna take the money back?
translationwow pretty much exactly what i wrote, i'm da bes, thanks for translating
If you can, please give me an honest feedback for the specific points in the order I present.I assure you I don't associate you as part of FSS itself, so even if you didn't apologize I wouldn't put it against FSS.
I will appreciate this very much.
P.S for No.4 I should have been more elaborate. FSS was accused for not explicitly crediting ZUN when they removed the English description and put up the Japanese explanation. The video was never taken down which shows credit for ZUN however, any moment of not clearly crediting ZUN goes against doujin rules. The TCP4 may have credited on their independent site but I do not see explicit credit for ZUN in the description of the game on the PS4 site. If someone were to miss the part of crediting ZUN on the video they will not know who the doujin work should be credited for.Mostly they got nailed for this because they were already at people's attention. It is entirely true that when they changed the description to the apology they removed any credits, and they should have kept them. Additionally, MyACG have been giving explicit credits pretty much everywhere, as has been said already, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. (And again, not "doujin rules", but this is part of the Touhou derivative guidelines.)
Whether it may be an issue in the East or West, the guidelines apply to all Touhou communities in the world.They apply the same yeah, but there's always the issue of keeping our fandom's image clean. People tend to be aware that one group overseas screwing up doesn't reflect how the rest of the overseas act, but it's still something to keep in mind.
Therefore any incident influences the world of touhou all the same.
Like them, FSS did not force people to spend money on them. People voluntarily are paying to show support. However, this still was a problem and it goes against doujin spirit.I know what you mean, but even though they intend to use all funds to develop the game, it's still considered profiting regardless. This is partly why I used the term "hobby" so many times: when you do something as a hobby, you use your own money and your own time because it's something you do just because you enjoy doing it. You don't generally ask for money from other people so you can continue your hobby, even if they benefit from it; at that point you're kind of selling a service, where the "service" is you work on your hobby. Yes, the overall intention is just to have the fans contribute so FSS can make the game the best and fastest they can, but I hope you can see why this is considered a commercial activity, especially if they had decided to sell the finished game.
Yes, FSS is in the form of funds but as explained there were going to use every cent of it to develop the game. None of it was for 'personal profit'.
Some may say FSS can get away using it for themselves then it is equally arguable that the TCP4 may get away developing their own different game for the PS4 despite receiving support for the touhou doujin game they put on the contest.I see that argument, but I think there are two things to note: 1) MyACG weren't aware that they couldn't develop the game for PS4, and they entered the contest without knowing. As said before, they originally intended to apply for the Play,Doujin! program (in which they would get the PS4 devkit), and that likely would have resulted in them getting rejected until they made the game for PC first anyways. It's just happenstance that they're still managing to win here. 2) I wouldn't really consider getting the devkit "support" in the same way money is "support". You literally cannot make the game without the devkit, and since any game made with it now won't be a Touhou derivative, they aren't even restricted to doujin activities. Also, if they had already finished their game and just wanted to port it to PS4, this scenario still wouldn't be any different.
I think it is an irony that without the rights to develop the Touhou doujin game they are putting this on the PS4 site as if they are developing it for sure. One of the perks on the PS4 site campaign includes voting rights, raffle for PS4 and digital copies of the top 3 game. Anyone will easily assume that the top 3 games are going to be on the PS4. Being involved with a big corporation I wonder how they are gonna get out of this if ZUN does not permit the distribution on the Chinese site.That's certainly something they will have to answer, and they've acknowledged it's their mistake. I don't think anyone's saying it's okay.
FSS did not get noticed by Wii U with doujin projects in mass commercialization.I don't think that's a valid complaint. Whether they were advertising or not, they both intended to get published on consoles and were attempting to get accepted into these programs explicitly for the purpose of developing for these platforms. Just the same, if MyACG didn't go through this campaign, they still would have tried to do something similar to what FSS did.
They applied for a spot at Wii U and the Wii U like their original games so WiiU included them to the developing team.
FSS did not advertise their doujin work on a Wii U site like the Chinese team did theirs on the the Chinese PS4 site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCd5wlUiuCY
New video. The arguments presented at 5:00 were some of the ones posted here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1158597.html#msg1158597), which were replied to in order to discuss with FSS. Unfortunately we haven't received responses to those, and while I understand they're busy, to hear these same arguments in the video is disappointing to say the least.
There is some incredible passive-aggressiveness here, along with the fact that, as clear from 8:00, they still aren't aware of some very basic things.
8:45: Despite being told otherwise, they went ahead and assumed what they assumed through the email without taking care to ask anyone else about what things mean. This has nothing to do with "unwritten guidelines" and is almost certainly because of what I wrote before: people weren't aware of IGG's cancellation policies, and you didn't send any follow-up emails explaining this issue, leading to what looks like the campaign not being cancelled.
I'm also not sure when this video was made, but MyACG has made various acknowledgements that they've violated the guidelines and are trying to fix the situation. As I've said many times in that thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17875.0/topicseen.html), nobody is saying that this is okay (11:55 wat). They make several claims about their situation that are similarly outdated.
They then go on to make various arguments that I also addressed in that thread by proxy from ShinesBright. One in particular is the claim that they don't give credit to Team Shanghai Alice, when they clearly do early on in every page I've seen the project. They also claim that MyACG isn't under the same "heat", where 1) they cannot possibly know this, and should be well aware that there can be a lot of private communication, and 2) the circumstances of the projects are different and the main reason TSSB got the attention it did was because ZUN tweeted at all.
12:45 I get the frustration of not understanding how a different culture operates and getting flak for it, and I can't blame anyone for not knowing, but as I've said in nearly every post, you didn't even ask. I cannot understand how anyone can think that it's just completely okay to use the IP of others to make your own thing.
Then more stuff I addressed in the other thread.
Yes, Cave Story is a doujin game. I'm not sure why it was brought up.
14:00 Oh my god you guys there really really wouldn't be these issues if you just asked people things rather than making huge assumptions and then saying it's risky. Of course it's risky if you have no idea what you're doing but make assumptions about everything, that's why we're here right now! The derivative guidelines aren't fickle or constantly-changing, nor does ZUN just make stuff up as he goes; that is an incredibly demeaning accusation. If this were actually the case, nobody would want to make Touhou stuff. Meanwhile, the guidelines have changed since 2004 a grand total of once, where we just had some additions.
Overall I'm really disappointed that things had to end this way. Nearly 100% of this case has been due to a lack of understanding that still seems to persist, with very few signs that FSS has been paying any attention to what we've been saying. I'll continue to cheer for the project nonetheless and wish you guys continued success, but my god this is all just so incredibly unnecessary.
You do realise this whole incident is your, and your only fault? Shoving the blame and whining about the guidelines. Really immature behaviour.
Okay. Now that my posts are removed to here I guess more people to discuss with :DThat has been already done (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1159194.html#msg1159194). And maybe start reading from page 1. Because your questions are all answered over the last 22 pages.
Please can you guys present your ideas about specific points that I mention on the posts that has been moved to here.
Hmm, why steam and wii u?
Well Wii U because it'd just be so easy to make this a fun experience to be brought along side Smash Wii U, because as far as local tournaments goes it would not require any more equipment.
Why steam? Because a lot of people on FB and YT said they want it on steam because that would make it easy to share with their friends.
Numbers matter to me, but not in profits, I am most happy when I can know that more people are having fun with my games.
南西? Nansei? I implore you to use another name... LENK64 (https://www.youtube.com/user/LENK64/videos) already has a (long running) series with the same name. It'd be a shame for her if you used the same name.
(It's my understanding that 南西 translates into Southwest, which is fairly generic, much like what 東方 literally translates into, so I don't blame you for thinking it up, since LENK64 isn't super well known. There might even be more Nansei's that we're all unaware of, but...)
......Really? "Doujin Spirit"? That's about as passive-aggressive as pouring salt into an open wound is. Not to mention that painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa and calling it "Mona Leesa" doesn't make it any more your own IP.....
As long as you distribute it without any intermediaries involved, and take "Touhou" out of the name, you should still be able to keep the game as it is.
Though you really need a boilerplate to put in your videos and the loading screen, explaining things in both English and Japanese. Maybe take some inspiration from abridged series and use something like "This is a fan-made tribute to 'Super Smash Bros.' by Nintendo, and 'Touhou Project' by Team Shanghai Alice. Content depicted within may not be representative of the original franchises."
I will also state that you should ignore any remaining haters on Youtube/Facebook and make this Touhou. I am not at all involved in this game and will not be one whit interested, like ExPorygon, if it just departs the Touhou setting. We tried here to get this worked out, and you've just kinda...walked out on us. Maybe it sounds entitled or whatever, but we all spent quite a lot of brainpower here trying to help, and now you throw in the towel and take the easy way out.
This is what FSS has dug in their heels about from the beginning: they wanted it both ways. In the end I think Saijee made the right decision, but I think instead of some Touhou-esque type knock-off characters, it might be better to show a little imagination and create something really new and exciting. Knock-offs are more likely to repel Touhou fans than attract them. Something utterly cool and different, though, might very well be appealing.What I'm trying to say is that CURRENTLY if you take out the Touhou there is nothing new and exciting about the game. It's just a Super Smash Bros. clone. I'm not saying that it can't become that way, but it's going to take a lot more effort and quite frankly probably won't catch my interest regardless.
I'm furious at how vile the community is being to him on Facebook and other places that aren't here. Yes, he fucked up, but it's no excuse to keep dragging his nose all in it and engaging in stereotypical internet name-calling. It sucks hard enough to be made an example of, I assume, as people are basically going to do here now. "How not to do it" is not really how people at all plan or want to go out as. Anyone who hasn't formed an opinion now is pretty rare and late to this party, I assume.
What I'm trying to say is that CURRENTLY if you take out the Touhou there is nothing new and exciting about the game. It's just a Super Smash Bros. clone. I'm not saying that it can't become that way, but it's going to take a lot more effort and quite frankly probably won't catch my interest regardless.
I'm sorry you think people were mean to him. Others are clearly of the opinion he's displayed a lot of less-than-good behavior himself, both towards the forum and towards the creator of the game series he wanted to capitalize on. YMMV.
Take out the Touhou characters and you're left with nothing but a Smash clone. Quite frankly, unless you change up the gameplay significantly from what it is currently, what reason would I ever have to play this when I can play the official Super Smash Bros games?My concern in a nutshell. I thought this would make a perfect two-for-one in that I don't have any new Nintendo consoles and would love a new Touhou fighter that's more up my alley than HM or ULiL. After all this, I'm just kinda disappointed.
Just because one side fucked up doesn't give the other side free pass to say things dickishly.Truth. Been seeing a lot of bad decisions and a lot of vitriol in this all over the place. If anything, I think we can ascribe most of this to a few guns jumped and a major communication breakdown.
Either way, I really hope you?re game does get finished, with or without Touhou content.Well put. This has been very much a learning experience at the least, and hopefully it'll lead things to go more smoothly in the future.
(Even though I?ll probably not follow this project anymore if it?s not Touhou anymore, but that?s beside the point.)
Thanks to all the people who have contributed here, as this discussion has told me A LOT about Doujin Culture that I hadn?t know about, either (as in, pretty much everything), and has even clarified why ZUN has set up his guidelines the way he has.
I want to know who voted for Rika, because damn, that has to be a punch in the gut.
Oh. Hi!
Congrats on winning the Higurashi lottery, I guess. Sorry it all worked out the way it did, even if you do have other outlets.
Yeah, it's mentioned at about 14:35 in the video.I cant believe this
Wait what...Now I'm kind of doubly disappointed this isn't a Touhou game anymore, because I would absolutely love to see that, much more than Shinmyoumaru, who I actually voted for.
she actually won?
Talk about bad news
So "Doujin Spirit"? I like the name. What isn't clear is whether or not you will start another campaign?
Reply ? 5
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FromSoySauce11 hours ago (edited)
An actual campaign isn't an option, though if enough fans really want to show support, there are plenty of other ways that play by even the strictest of doujin rules, I can talk about it in more detail in another video.
Reply ?
ItohKuni11 hours ago
There will be lots of ways to support, but for this project, we just got out of a mess, so for now I can firmly say "No", there will not be another campaign.
Reply ? 1
I can talk about it in more detail in another videoWhat is it with these people's fixation with videos? It makes perfect sense for a dev log where you're showing gameplay progress. For responding to simple inquiries, it's a bit strange.
I mean my theory on why they dropped it is that they couldn't handle the sheer wall of Internet fury and just wanted to throw it away and do something that wouldn't cause a gigantic clusterfuck. Very human response there, admittedly.The only problem with that action, though, is that now they get a completely new kind of fury with that action, being that of the disappointed Touhou fans, and even worse, that of the people who only found out about their project during the IGG incident who will then believe they've always been meaning to do this.
To answer the statement, we were completely planning to do a Touhou game as long as it was in our ability regardless of the restrictions. We explained that while the project is risky, we want this to be a Touhou game before anything. Our hand was forced when TSA sent us an email accusing us of copyright infringement despite them in previous emails in very plain Japanese stating that copyright is not an issue and to continue making the game.
We were encouraged to make a game using Touhou characters as long as we cancel crowd funding (which we did), and then accused of using the copyright infringement 3 days after.
That is the sole reason our hand was forced to drop the Touhou title.
the important thing about being a game developer is being noticed, so a fangame, even if it won't be on steam or wiiu, will attract attention and fans which will be better in the long run wouldn't it? Or am I wrong?That's what I'd think, but it's their decision to make, and it seems they've made it. If they'd legitimately rather do their own thing than make it a Touhou thing, then they can. Just a little disappointing after all this buildup and all this effort.
They really don't understand do they?
The campaign is copyright infringement and the game isn't.
The first reason being is poor understanding of doujin culture in general by those not heavily involved in it, especially outside of Japan. Doujin doesn't have a perfect equivalent in the West, but I'm sure as most people will tell you, they have heard of it being approximated to "indie", whether in translations, or elsewhere (Indie game expos), especially in any media targeted to a foreign audience. This unsurprisingly leads to a misguided approach of how to develop a Touhou game, since assumptions are made that whatever is okay in Indie culture is probably okay in doujin culture. As it turns out, crowdfunding, a rather recent phenomenon, isn't one of those things. Along with many other examples pointed out by you guys. Oops.
Aeon Genesis is a loose collective of programmers, writers, and Japanese speakers. I spearhead the operation but by no means could I do this without lots and lots of help. As such I have been extremely hesitant to place a donate button on the site in the past. How could any funds added to the account ever be fairly distributed amongst all of the contributors? A few months ago, I hit upon the answer: a rainy day fund.
I'm still hashing out the details, but essentially we will have a private forum (possibly public-viewable) within the Pantheon wherein contributors can request funds. There needs to be a valid reason for a withdrawal from the fund. In my case, for instance, my student loan payments have dropped off in the past several months due in no small part to emergency veterinary bills, but this is a drastic example. The money could help finance a PS2 for Tyria so he could play the PS2 SRW games he's always wanted. It could go towards a pizza for a translator who's just finished a script, or who's motivation is flagging. It could help pay bus fare to help a contributor visit a sick family member. Stuff like that. Wide ranging, but not frivolous.
It's important to note that any donations made to the fund are strictly done as thanks for translations already released. We will not accept money for anything we have not produced, and do not want the pressure of someone claiming that they paid us for work that hasn't shown up yet. Furthermore, we will never withhold any releases due to lack of contributions to the fund. It would be nice to have an emergency pillow to fall back on, but everyone understands that times are tough, and I will not hold my work for ransom in this manner!
The wiki doesn't make things any easier. The document itself is on a page labelled "Touhou Wiki:Copyrights" under the subheading "Copyright status/Terms of Use of the Touhou Project", implying its some sort of legal document when in fact it is quite far from it. It doesn't go into any other further detail either, other than the link to the Wikipedia article on doujin, which doesn't do the culture justice either.
Second is harsh, and sometimes unfair criticism put forth by all sides. First, if a developer wants to move main communication channels elsewhere (Fb/Yt are very common examples; Tw in Japan; could be a separate site altogether for all I care), then why not? Just because it started in one place doesn't mean it must stay there forever. I sure hope you guys aren't like the Wikia which gave me headaches when I wanted to move my TL project elsewhere. Not like I can recall doujin circles congregating on some sort of common forum either.
As a wiki contributor, where good faith is assumed, there's also a lot of bad/poor faith assuming going on and about. You guys seem to demand every inch of proof and harshly point out every misstep from ideal, much like a cross-examiner would at court, Video communiques? Could be a blog post for all I care since both serve the same purpose - a message from the developer, plus room for comments underneath, only difference being inconvenience for the viewer if a transcript isn't provided. Refunds for contributors? Seems you missed the memo posted on other sites, including his more preferred lines of communication.
Doesn't exonerate the developers from fault either. As most people have pointed out, it would've helped to seek advice regarding doujin culture, and not to jump to conclusions too soon. You showed poor faith of ZUN, without considering the possibility that ZUN is simply reluctant to work outside of his comfort zone, i.e. doujin. It's not like he's some inflexible stick either, since he has been accommodating many times in the past (doujin anime even after guideline change being one. Also Fantasy Night). All that said, even in face of criticism, kudos for getting this far.
Haven't read such vitriolic comments about fan projects since the "Vampirish Night" case, and we all know how that turned out.
Just what happened to spur this decision to make it "totally not-Touhou"? Did something happen in that copyright claim e-mail on the IGG campaign suddenly go, "no, f*** you guys, you're not allowed to do it, ever"? From what impression I was given from ZUN's e-mail about the project as a whole was he was totally fine with it. So....???
Also, for Pete's sake, TSA shutting down the campaign does not mean the *project* can't go ahead. As people have said many times. Unless you've been directly told a contradicting statement to what you told us earlier, you have permission to do the project.
Just like you, from the impression I got from TSA's email to me, I also thought it sounded like he was totally fine. But I'm starting to think he only said that because he didn't think that I would still have the spirit to actually try to make the game even without the IGG. But just like I said in the video, what Fumiyo Oyamada said really wasn't too far off of what I put in red on your post.
As far as between the time TSA emailed FSS and the time that they emailed IGG, we did everything that we could to satisfy TSA's request. And in the end, TSA forbade FSS from using Touhou. It was not my choice.
What does your reply have to do with what I stated?
As far as TSA is concerned without Campaign it's just another fanwork.
You stated that the game isn't copyright infringement, which is untrue. All Touhou fan games infringe on ZUN's copyrights. He just chooses to selectively enforce those copyrights, and has issued a set of general guidelines for how he determines whether or not to enforce them. None of this changes the fact that ZUN has the legal right to shut down any Touhou fan game he does not like, if he wanted to.
Further more, You guys don't seem to understand, one of my dreams was just shattered, FSS is no longer allowed to use TSA characters, at all. I can't make a Touhou game ever again. I'm not about to lose my other dream of being able to make and balance my own fighting game on a Nintendo console.
And again, that sucks if it's true, but it's also highly exceptional to how TSA has been towards a whole slew of Touhou fangame-makers that they would make such a sweeping ban on a game, even if it abides the guidelines. Considering how exceptional it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see that in black-and-white.
FSS is no longer allowed to use TSA characters, at all. I can't make a Touhou game ever again.As previously mentioned several times, it might be a good idea to pm or forward the email privately to one of the members here to do a solid reading of the email, because I don't quite trust FSS to be able to do that competently, given everything that has happened thus far.
As previously mentioned several times, it might be a good idea to pm or forward the email privately to one of the members here to do a solid reading of the email, because I don't quite trust FSS to be able to do that competently, given everything that has happened thus far.
People here are willing to help, and have offered help many times. Whether you take that offer or not, well...
EDIT:Infact based on what Kuni said TSA did not lie nor say the game cannot be made.
1.Yes you are in-fact infringing copyright with crowdfunding with IGG
2.Yes you do NOT have permission for the IGG campaign which is somewhat commercialization, you do not have permission for it but instead has permission to make the game in your own ability meaning without IGG whatsoever.
Unless you're not telling the whole story here I do not understand where exactly does it state a flat out NO.
If anything it just seems like you misunderstood again.
10 minutes ago on facebook, Saijee once again refusing to listen to anyone and spin his own narrative as the victim againYep, FSS doesn't deserve the right to live, much less use ZUN's characters.
(https://i.imgur.com/hiI25zH.png)
At this point, I don't honestly think it is a case of "too busy to reply here" anymore but that any arguments against him is being ignored completely on purpose now
Okay, to hell with this. Saijee doesn't even deserve to make this game. Leave it to someone who isn't an idiot.I beat you by a wide margin in my previous post.
10 minutes ago on facebook, Saijee once again refusing to listen to anyone and spin his own narrative as the victim againUhh, Paz???
(https://i.imgur.com/hiI25zH.png)
At this point, I don't honestly think it is a case of "too busy to reply here" anymore but that any arguments against him is being ignored completely on purpose now
Fluffy, Savory, ad hominem doesn't help anyone. Take that shit elsewhere. Offline.
Enough of that. Moving on.
I think Saijee and FSS need to understand that the amount of (relative) publicity this incident has gotten means that it is no longer about just them anymore. The collective eyes of the Touhou fandom, both eastern and western, are watching developments here closely. FSS keep posting things hastily without fully verifying what they're talking about, and in the process they're spreading misinformation which is only making things spiral further and further out of control, while simultaneously dragging FSS' image (and with it, the entire Western Touhou fandom) through the mud. That is why people are passionate here, that is why people are reacting rashly, because some of us are f***ing scared that the Eastern side of things are going to look at this incident and decide it's easier to just update the guidelines to tell foreigners to f*** off and none of us want that to happen.
So I just got back from my night class. I read everything up to the last post. If I understand correctly, it looks like this thread will exist till Saturday right?
Therefore, I was wondering what points you wanted to discuss if any before the thread is closed about disagreements with the video? I hear there are some points people think are wrong and I am willin to listen and see what you guys think.
I could go back and make a big reply. But, I think it would be to easy to go off tangents. So one point at a time regarding problems with the video, I'll give the floor to you guys.
Unless the recipient has some duty of confidentiality (e.g., physician-patient, attorney-client, trade secret disclosed in communication), the recipient is free to share the information with anyone. However, under some circumstances, the sender might sue the recipient for publicity given to private life, under Restatement (Second) Torts ? 652D (1977).Soure; http://www.rbs2.com/email.htm
To: Alcoraiden
I'll answer one point at a time. As Saijee stated, privacy laws on email are extremely limited, and if there is even a chance that we get sued for exposing private information, then we are not willing to take the risk. We are legally allowed to share the information of the email. But publishing it publicly uploading that information is not allowed. If TSA publicly declares that they allow us to share the email, then that is a different story. You will have to ask TSA for their permission to have the email be released. I don't feel like I have the ability to release the original Japanese text in public.
They stated that our use of the material (Touhou) had not been authorized, and was an infringement of copyright material. Now, it is true that this could be taken in multiple ways. But the most logical way that FSS can interpret it is that we have not been authorized to use Touhou material.
Logically, when someone makes an accusation at someone but they want them to know that it implies something else, it is generally up to the accuser to make sure that the recipient understands the good will behind the accusation.
Yes, but reasonably, you would not expect someone who you accused to respond "Ok, is there any additional information behind your accusation you wanted to make sure I understood?"
We received the word for word notice of the copyright accusation by Mr. Fumio Oyamada, attached to the email IGG sent.
Not true, the email stated that the author has not given authority for the material to be used. It did not specify "used how or for what reason". As such, the most logical interpretation is that all usage of the material has not been given to you "the accused".
I am not completely opposed to sending one last email. Though, I must warn you that even if we send an email, from our personal experience it is most likely that he will not respond. If he does not respond and I relay this information 30 days later. Would you guys even believe us? In addition, why don't you tweet TSA yourselves and have them allow us to disclose the information?
What I want to clear out instead is this allegation that Zun has shut down their project because that is a claim that would damage Zun integrity; as can be seen in the comment section of that video how much anti-Zun sentiment has been shown
Email to that secondary relay person who has come into contact with you ealier; and perhaps asking regarding the disclosing email information as well would be grand
Since you guys are the party that is in control of this project and not us; we are in no position to request something of that matter within your group and TSA
Says though, even if you guys did receive that you can still make a Touhou game... it would still be too late for you guys to go back on making a Touhou game right?
The secondary (relay person) Is Fumiyo Oyamada. The same exact person who filed the copyright claim on indigogo.
I did not mention this in the video. But in the notice that we received from Indigogo, Mr. Fumio Oyamada, swore under punishment of perjury. That he is "a" owner of the material in question, and that it is not authorized for use and a copyright infringement. Meaning Mr. Oyamada has legal rights over Touhou like ZUN, and if he says it is not authorized and an infringement of copyright, then it is the same legal affect that ZUN's word would have.
As I read Touhou Subs...
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?
As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.
Then what if he doesn't reply? Despite my best effort to prove that FSS does not steal money, or is trying to make a quick profit by moving to the Wii-U, or that we never wanted to make the game not Touhou. There seems to be very little hope that the people on this forum will believe me.
Seriously, as of right now. FSS has just been accused of copyright infringement. Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?
Are you going to believe me if I tell you exactly what they tell me?
Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?Doujin culture, you guys have already said a lot about how you don't get the culture; then how about just trust us on this one... for once
I wouldn't be too worried about that, provided a second similar case doesn't crop up (and it better not). There are already a number of foreigners who are creating under ZUN's guidelines, so it would take a little bit more before that trust is totally lost.A Japanese Touhou doujin game developer also told me as much on Twitter (https://twitter.com/touhousubs/status/556823139137904640).
Here's one point I want to stress.
There were concerns that this incident may tarnish the western Touhou community's reputation. Here, I echo N-Forza:A Japanese Touhou doujin game developer also told me as much on Twitter (https://twitter.com/touhousubs/status/556823139137904640).
In particular, this is not a good reason to get into a heated argument.
Some data to reassure you: I've been following every tweet search result for 東方 大乱闘 (https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=東方 大乱闘), 東方 スマブラ (https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=東方 スマブラ), and 東方 WiiU (https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=東方 wiiu&src=typd) from the beginning (and also threads on 東方裏, etc.). There were never all that many relevant tweets besides those linking those articles. There were a good number of tweets on the 15th about the correction regarding WiiU, but after that the number dropped to fewer than 20/day. Information about the game never even spread that far. (I even saw a tweet that seemed to think that the whole game, not just the WiiU part, was false information, but I can't find it now.) The handful of users from Japan who continued to follow the information also read this discussion on MotK and understand that the western Touhou community disapproves as much of FSS's actions.
Fair enough, I told myself if one of you said you would listen then I'll send one more email.
I will make deal then. I'll send this email and relay the information on the forums exactly as they respond.
Regardless of whether FSS is clear of the copyright issue of the game though. We are not going to take the risk of continuing the smash game under the Touhou name for extra precautions.
However...if they say that FSS does indeed still have the ability to create a Touhou game then when the new game is finished, we will release a modded version of the game featuring the original roster and replace the character models. After the development of the new smash game is completed.
We are not allowed to publish the emails of TSA.Soure; http://www.rbs2.com/email.htm
Are you going to believe me if I tell you exactly what they tell me?I thought I already suggested this at page 19. See below
Suggestion, you're not obliged too but if you really want to convince us and take away part of that shady behaviour: Censor out the header name/e-mailaddress and PM / Pastebin (private, with expiration timer) Monhan / Forza or Cuc the e-mail (they are the doujin experts here), so they can read it and confirm whether it is true or not. That way, there will be no public disclosure. Think about this.I don't know why Saijee is suddenly backing off again, I thought he apologised for this behaviour and was willing to discuss? Shade is somewhat more willing to clear things up it seems.
Seriously, as of right now. FSS has just been accused of copyright infringement. Under what normal culture do you infer that someone is still giving you permission to do something after being informed that they are accusing you of a crime?
I'll say this once, and you can believe me or not. But FSS's agenda does not include making people hate ZUN. ZUN made no attempt to soften the negativity his friends and fans were tossing at FSS and made no attempt to be considerate of the effort we put in to being accommodating and fixing our mistakes.Hey now, are you really blaming ZUN now? You do realise that this negativity is your and your brothers faults alone? Your brother Saijee refused to listen to us on page one. Since you claimed you read the thread, I assume you aware of this.
As of such I do not feel responsible for not fanning the flames of those who understood FSS's position.
Saijee's gone again...
No one is blaming anyone. I think that we were wrong not to consult with you first. But we are trying to listen now.I think I now know what people have been meaning when they note that there is a difference between what Shade and I have been saying.
I am doing exactly what ZUN is doing. "Saying nothing" to my fans, while the documented history speaks for itself.
As I read Touhou Subs...
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?
As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.
Addressing your question whether TohoSmash should be made after all? Do you even realise what we have been telling you for 20 pages before TSA made their claim?
We laid out every possible scenario and opportunity to help you. You chose to cling to the crowdfunding and continue the 1-sided communication methods. And as a result you got copyright claimed. It is justice because you didn't back off the moment we told you to.
About the question Saijee asked: If I scan the answers of the fans, the answer is a yes BUT you need to seriously think carefully how you move:
- You cannot ask for crowdfunding
- You cannot distribute it on WiiU, Steam, or similar platforms which ZUN did not approve
These are most important, and with the other details Cuc/Forza can help out.
It wasn't addressing your absence specifically, it was laying out the problem. And, I already answered your question in the post.But what if I can?
Additionally: You need to understand that you are the developers and not slaves. If fans request: " PLEASE RELEASE ON WIIU" you tell them: " No I can't, it is against ZUN guidelines ". And you're done, because it is the truth and whether the fans are happy with that answer or not, is not your problem.
You cannot please everybody and with the current guidelines and rules. Anybody that flames/hates you for this is not a true fan or supporter. Even if they donate 5000 dollars to your team. A true fan also understands the position of FSS and the difficulties.
But what if I can?
Would two versions of the game be able to do that?
Wii U/ Steam getting non-touhou and PC getting a touhou version?
Correct me if I am wrong: So you want to make 2 versions of your game? A touhou themed one and non-touhou themed one? Where the non-touho is a WiiU / Steam or whatever version?
Would this make "everybody" happy?But that is the problem, you're trying to make everybody happy. That is impossible in my opinion. Yes it is great but are you able to pull it off? (In terms of time and real life)
I think it would be great.
made no attempt to be considerate of the effort we put in to being accommodating and fixing our mistakes.Did you guys contact IndieGoGo? I haven't seen any mention of contacting IGG, and I'm sure they would have squared things off, since there's no way they'd allow the campaign to continue if it would mean copyright infringement...
I think that we were wrong not to consult with you first. But we are trying to listen now.
I'd like to move forward.Good to see that you've recognized this ;) I've only been a bystander for most of this situation, but many people did try to help you guys~
I haven't gone anywhere, but I don't see anybody addressing my question.I'm sure that the people continually asking Shade to email ZUN would imply enough? Or the people who are saying they'd lose much interest if the game dropped it's Touhou theme~
Would this make "everybody" happy?I mean, if you follow the Touhou Guidelines, then yeah I think it'd be all good~
I think it would be great.
But that is the problem, you're trying to make everybody happy. That is impossible in my opinion.Is it selfish of me to want to try to please everybody?
Your fans want Touhou themed version. You already seen their replies: "If this is not Toho anymore them I am not interested" or "If the theme is gone, then this is just another clone" .
The question is WHAT do you want? IF you decide to make 2 versions, you cannot release the Toho version on WiiU steam etc. You cannot ask for crowdfunding, etc. Period. Simple as that.
Of course not! It is not selfish at all. It is your final decision and right to try it out. We're not stopping you, we're just informing you what you should consider or keep in mind.How does this sound:
Look, I am a very realistic person. My thinking pattern is mainly rational and logical. I might come off as anti or negative but please don't think of it that way. Personally, I am in no condition against 2 versions. I am just checking your reasons and strategy.
PS: Also if you decide to make 2 versions, you need to make damned very sure that they are not related in any form to each other.
Just reality checking, I really hope you aren't thinking of the following:
- Non Touhou version > A western style looking maid (almost similar to Sakuya) who uses knives but is called something else
- Touhou version > Sakuya.
or
- Non touhou version > A shrinemaiden lookalike in red clothes using a different shaped Gohei
- Touhou version > Reimu
Because that will be a major bad idea.
How does this sound:
The bullet traits/patterns, gameplay and story are identical.
The bullet and stage graphics are different. The character names are different. The character job(the sakuya expy not be a maid?)s are different, the character design is different.
While I'm not opposed to there being two versions of the game (in fact I find it to be a great idea), I'm just wondering, are you thinking of making both of the games at the same time and then release them at the same time? :3 That would be awesome if you could pull it off. :DMaybe he's staggering the releases as to keep low.
As requested. I sent the email to Mr. Oyamada.You have already sent it? ...but oh dear, didn't I say it would have been better for the folks here to make sure of the content first before sending it?
The contents contain the following: (Only Japanese part)
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小山田さん、こんにちは。
ご迷惑をおかけして申し訳ありません。もしお時間をいただけるのならば、最後にもうひとつだけ質問してもよろしいでしょうか？
もしFSSがお金を払わずに無料でダウウンロードできる東方ゲームったとします。その場合に東方の著作権を侵害せずに配布できる安全なウェブサイトはありますでしょうか？
もしご存知ならば、よろしければそのサイトのURLを教えていただけないでしょうか？
お手数をおかけしてすみません
樋口国彦
----
----
Hello Mr. Oyamada,
I apologize for bothering you. I just have one final question if you would spare a moment of your time.
If FSS makes a free Touhou game, that people download without needing to pay money. Is there a safe website we can use to distribute the game without breaking the Touhou copyright laws?
If this website exists, can you please give us the address for it?
Thank you so much for your time,
Kunihiko Higuchi
----
I pray they say there still is a way for the game to be OK because I still want it too.
It might not mean much, but I give you my word that I'll tell you what they respond as soon as I know truthfully.
You have already sent it? ...but oh dear, didn't I say it would have been better for the folks here to make sure of the content first before sending it?Like I said, we don't care about profits. All we are after is the satisfaction in the feeling that many people want to play our games.
...and anyhow, that email doesn't really raise the question regarding copyright law strikes and stuff... and do you guys really want to give out the pc version for free? Really? That is a tad extreme even in my book personally
@Helepolis, as I am a Wii U dev, I simply don't have the time to be able to continue to be working on the same project, at some point I need to work on Glass Wing Wii U.If I put my self in your situation (your shoes) here is what I would think and my mindset would be:
Maybe he's staggering the releases as to keep low.If that's the case, I suggest releasing the Touhou version first. What you want as a game developer is attention. A fangame is surely more likely to gain a fanbase than a smash clone. The Touhou version has already gotten a lot of attention already.
As I read Touhou Subs...Of course. That's been the goal from the very beginning. As for the second point, many people including myself have already noted that the takedown was very likely due to a lack of understanding IGG's policy about not being able to close completed campaigns. As far as I can tell you never made this clear to the japanese side, and as such it seemed as though you were not closing the campaign as requested, so action was taken. Additionally, many people have noted that if IGG receives a smaller cut when the campaign is shut down by claims, that this would even be the optimal course of action to take. If you had planned together with TSA to send a takedown notice (as some people suggested) to cancel and refund asap, would you still be saying that the language in that takedown notice implies that you could never develop Touhou derivative works again? Probably not, right?
Let me get this straight: People of MotK still want this to be a Touhou game? I want this to be still be a Touhou game. Is this something we can agree on?
As much as I don't want to let go of Touhou, TSA has shown that they are not beyond calling copyright infringement.
I am not trying to fight here. I am curious to what others think and hope they can give me a right directions.ShinesBright, I've already seen your reactions on facebook. We're not playing this game. Asking 2nd time to drop the subject for now and keep it for a later discussion. Maybe in general thread about ZUN guidelines, but here we're discussing TSSB and the future.
I don't think there's anything wrong with answering questions and getting answers.
No.1 I see that people can ignore it but if possible I would like an answer so I have better understanding.
No.2 is relatable to the Thread which is [Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)]
No.3 can be answered at least by Helepolis because you were telling me there is no double standards. But still if possible I would like people to answer this too.
ShinesBright, I've already seen your reactions on facebook. We're not playing this game. Asking 2nd time to drop the subject for now and keep it for a later discussion. Maybe in general thread about ZUN guidelines, but here we're discussing TSSB and the future.My apology Helepolis. I was the one who asked her to forward those questions over to MoTK if she wants answer... but I did explicitly tell her this thread is busy right now and ask under a different thread at a different time... didn't think she would post the questions on this thread though
Don't make me repeat it 3rd time please.
Sorry if I seem persistent but I am new to the whole activities with forums and I thought it wasn't a big deal to just post a random question.It isn't a big deal to post questions, but if you actually follow the flow you can see that now isn't the exact time. We're trying to reach a conclusion here. After that, we will see whether we need to make a new thread to discuss ZUN Guidelines in general or continue it here. Because for me it is also important to make ZUN's guidelines more known to people because we want to avoid history repeating.
So.... for my topic which thread is it that I should go?
and will you guys address my post there?
Putting TSSB into nothing but a spare time activity would yield it with never reaching completion.You seem to be afraid that if you choose your career over TSSB, people will hate you and flame you. Perhaps they will be disappointed but if they are real supporters/understanding, they would also respect your choice. Just like we respect ZUN's guidelines, we also respect your choice for career.
Regarding the 2 versions of this fan smasher:Monhan is hopefully coming over with a Tweet translation from Ruw. It was something along the lines of: "We were running wild for no reason because the game can be still made, just no crowdfunding or unauthorized selling through unapproved platforms."
If ZUN/TSA lets us continue TSSB: the only difference would be the character, stage and bullet designs, as well as names. Otherwise it'd be the exact same game.
Regarding the 2 versions of this fan smasher:
If ZUN/TSA lets us continue TSSB: the only difference would be the character, stage and bullet designs, as well as names. Otherwise it'd be the exact same game.
You said you lack the time and thus you need to make a serious real life choice. And it isn't fucking issue, we all know it.I'm sorry, but I literally have no idea what your talking about.
afraid?Hardly. Let me tell you a story: Before all of this I had started a project back in 2007, that later in 2009 started take the form titled "Difference" it kept on needing to change form though, and kept becoming behind it's time. And as a result. well it's 8 years later and the game still isn't around. That is what happens to stalled games.
@flandre5carlet テキストを読んでます、まぁ作るのもやめるのも本人次第ですから仕方ないですね。誤解したままなのは残念ですが
"I read the texts. Well, it's up to them if they want to continue making the game or stop, we have no say in that. Though it's a bit unfortunate that this ends while he still misunderstood it."
-stuff about RuwThe TSSB drama started when ZUN responded to Ruw, it'd be cool if it could also end with a clear answer that way too, but that's just wishful thinking.
Recent posts: I was just writing up the following. While obviously you've sent out the email already, I still want to post this:
If another email is going to be sent and everyone wants to be cooperative, we need mutual communication and as much openness as possible. I'm suggesting:
- We make note of important things to mention in such an email, as a group.
- You/we draft up an email, and the contents are posted here beforehand, so people can make sure this is the message we want to convey.
- The reply is also posted publicly in its original form. To this end, the intention to post a reply publicly should be noted in the email itself.
Things I think should be noted:
- That the email's purpose is to clarify potential misunderstandings.
- Make it clear that the email conversation would be made public in order for translators and others to make sure the information is accurately interpreted.
- Clarify how you were tied with IGG and couldn't really close the campaign. Explain what you intended to do instead.
- Following this, ask if the reason for the takedown was because they thought that the campaign was not being closed. If this was the case, preemptively apologize for not informing them.
- Once again ask for permission to develop the game as a Touhou derivative.
- Probably other stuff
Any suggestions?
The TSSB drama started when ZUN responded to Ruw, it'd be cool if it could also end with a clear answer that way too, but that's just wishful thinking.
One problem I really don't think you guys are getting. The email was fromIGG and not TSA, right? When you send a copyright claim like what was suggested, you'll typically get an email like that, just standard. It doesn't reflect your agreement with zun to kill the campaign, in fact, you should have expected to see that email if you couldn't kill it.
Send an email to zun to verify, because I'm sure the IGG email is nothing but standardized notifications.
Putting TSSB into nothing but a spare time activity would yield it with never reaching completion.No, look at Black Mesa. The fans will wait.
No, look at Black Mesa. The fans will wait.
One problem I really don't think you guys are getting. The email was fromIGG and not TSA, right?
In the meanwhile, Ruw-san on twitter is still wondering why there is so much confusion and misunderstanding and assumptions made.
So we basically have one more night, because it seems Saijee and Shade and company have most of their time in the EST "late afternoon to early morning" block, if their post rate says anything.I think you're misunderstanding. This isn't some kind of deadline court decision they have to make. I am not pushing Saijee or his brothers to immediately make a decision. They can continue the decision making or debate in their Development thread.
No, Shade_ and Saijee have claimed they've received e-mail(s) from TSA saying they can't make any Touhou games ever. They've also said they can't show us these emails due to privacy reasons.Not quite, their reply from TSA they say to keep private was where they got the "copyrights aren't a problem" message, which we figure is not really accurate, hence why we asked for the actual contents. Then when the campaign was shut down they got the email from IGG notifying them of the takedown request, and were given a copy of the claim by TSA. The claim, as one would expect, details that the content of the campaign was not authorized and was infringement. This was then understood by FSS to mean they cannot continue development on Touhou derivative work, which is where they're getting the idea that this contradicts their earlier statement. In other words, we think both statements have been misinterpreted.
Sorry for intruding again
Just a crazy thought, it would be really cool if all the Wii U counterparts are... male... cast fulls pretty/manly males
Again, just a crazy thought, but it would certainly set it apart from Touhou and make it seems like a cool parody counterpart as opposed to cheap expys
Again, just wild brainstorming, I am out again '^'
Not quite, their reply from TSA they say to keep private was where they got the "copyrights aren't a problem" message, which we figure is not really accurate, hence why we asked for the actual contents. Then when the campaign was shut down they got the email from IGG notifying them of the takedown request, and were given a copy of the claim by TSA. The claim, as one would expect, details that the content of the campaign was not authorized and was infringement. This was then understood by FSS to mean they cannot continue development on Touhou derivative work, which is where they're getting the idea that this contradicts their earlier statement. In other words, we think both statements have been misinterpreted.
I'm glad in the end FSS finally took the time to discuss this with others and that the issue is being resolved (better late than never.....).Probably got something to do with this btw
Sorry, for being late
I honestly don't think now is the good time to shut down the thread yet considering now there is a new issue to discuss regarding verifying the actual status of the copyright email and Zun's stance (although the answer is more than obvious). Then the discussion (again) of the viability of this project as a Touhou project given if the C&D is false... and various issues that can still possibly crop up in the long run (yeah, has happened a lot)
Unless there will be a new thread or the discussion of these tibits shall be moved into other thread (1 of the 2 other thread about TSSB), then I think we should need a tad more time before taking this thread down, in my honest opinion
Probably got something to do with this btwIf that's the case, thank you for your efforts in getting them to come here and talk things through. I won't post my personal views on FSS as, at this point, I think it's best to just let the issue die out, but I willl say I hope you, Helepolis, Reu, Drake, and everyone else who took the time to discuss things with them have had a positive impact on their approach. =)
https://www.facebook.com/THProject/posts/10152975423819020?comment_id=10152976049599020&offset=0&total_comments=33
This has been an extremely interesting thread and I'll say I learned a lot about doujin culture and the social aspects of game development.
I'd say it's less likely its a fake c&d against the game and more a c&d against the IGG campain.Fake in the context of FSS think it was meant for their project and stated it as such
Sorry, for being lateYes, and I prefer to see that going into a different thread. Let us not forget that this thread originally was a part of the Development thread. I separated it for overview and keeping the original thread clean. Now that we're indeed pulling into the next station, I prefer people to transfer from train :V
I honestly don't think now is the good time to shut down the thread yet considering now there is a new issue to discuss regarding verifying the actual status of the copyright email and Zun's stance (although the answer is more than obvious).
Sorry if I'm being daft, but I don't see the problems with 2 mostly the same versions.I'm not sure if you saw my message before, but is it possible for you to produce actual Wii U discs or just eShop releases? In the former case you should be free to sell the discs at conventions/through your site/etc.
Sorry if I'm being daft, but I don't see the problems with 2 mostly the same versions.
Bwuh? If you're not going to do a campaign again...and you're going to mod it for Touhou anyway...why not do it Touhou in the beginning?
Oh, so they're going to make it for the Wii U etc. but release a PC mod patch for Touhou? I...have no idea how that'd work out.
Geez, some people are overreacting. This is not the end of the world, there are still a lot of Touhou fangames being made.
As said before, doujin games are not meant for profit. You can't make a living out of it. Focusing only on the Touhou version would be risky for Saijee's carieer.
And for those who still don't get the matter about Zun's guideline:
● Touhou Project is doujin
● Touhou Project is a copyrighted work
● Zun's guideline is a list of exceptions that allow one to use his copyrighted work. Those exceptions follow the "Doujin Spirit" (as you call it)
It doesn't apply specifically to Zun. Vocaloid and many others doujin projects follow the same rules.
As said before, doujin games are not meant for profit.Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.
Nansei Doujin SpiritWeren't you going to change the name because of a conflict with LENK64's own Nansei (http://nansei.wikia.com/wiki/Nansei_Project_Wiki) series?
To reiterate the plan: Nansei Doujin Spirit for the Wii U and Steam, Touhou Doujin Spirit for PC, where they are identical games apart form iconography.
The latter game would not, I repeat: NOT be made in secret. Because I have nothing to hide. And would only be made if we can guarantee ZUN won't continue with the accusing FSS of copyright infringement.
Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.
Incorrect, TSA's email to us said that getting a big profit off of Doujin is perfectly fine.There's a difference between "meant" for profit and "getting" a profit. You don't make doujin works with the express end goal of making a profit. If you do, awesome, more power to you. But doujin fanworks are meant to express how much you like the original property and wanted to share that with like-minded fans.
And if you can't see the problem with making a Touhou doujin clone based off of whatever original commercial game you make, you probably shouldn't be making that clone at all.
Jet Set Radio has nothing to do with Jet Force Gemini for exampleThe counter-example to this would be putting "Touhou" in the title. But It seems like you've already made up your mind about the name, one way or another, so I'm just saying.... =)
It just seems like a contradiction when you make a Wii U title to teach about doujin.
I already said that there is a lot I don't know but I know more now and can still continue to know more about it before the story is set in stone.
That said, let's move forward under the assumption that the final story would in fact be made fully detailing the properly informed inner workings of doujin culture.
With that assumption in place, any more objections?
Why not just make the two games different instead of clones of each other.
Since the other game isn't about Touhou you could remove Touhou influenced mechanics like flight and replace it with something else just as interesting?
At this point this just seems to be going back and forth.
also personally if this is the case then I don't see any reason to purchase the OC game if the Touhou one is going to free anyways.
My post
You guys talk about the worry of copyright issues but I think simply re skinning them isn't enough to accomplish what you want here.
It just seems like a contradiction when you make a Wii U title to teach about doujin.
I agree.
And I also agree that simply reskinning characters may not be the best idea. It'd just be easier (and safer) to make fully original characters and give them references to Touhou or other series within their personality, movesets, alternate colors or dialogue. Maybe perhaps have at least one fighter inspired by a Touhou character but without making it blatantly obvious.
I'm pretty sure it could be what the characters will be like. Gameplay is fine, you can't copyright gameplay mechanics (but god have companies tried), it's mostly with the characters really. If your Wii U version has character that are still very similar to Touhou characters from your TSSB game then there could be issues. If they look completely different but have a color palate similar then I believe it to be fine. Look at all the fighting games that do this, Filia from Skullguirls has a Fiona color pallet from Adventure Time. Having a maid character the uses knives is mostly pushing your boundaries, why not have green haired pigtailed elven maid who uses a giant hammer that inexplicably explodes into tuna when ever she attacks? That's just an example but it's a way to show you can use them as a base but you can turn them into something else entirely. There are many characters based on other things but as long as the end result is not, "Wait that's just X with a different hairstyle!" then you should be fine. I've made characters based on some Touhou characters and after working on them for long enough they became their own person with their own personality from what they were based on. (Ex in my case Yuugi and Utsuho)I don't think you realize how much work that would be. The bulk content of fighting game development is around individual characters, rather than primary game mechanics. Animation work in particular is very heavy in comparison to everything else. I agree having completely different characters would be best, but that would be a stupendously difficult thing to do.
What I'm curious about is whether it's possible for a commercial game to later go doujin. [...] If I make game A commercially, can I then make game B from game A and call game B "doujin" because the differences from game A satisfy the doujin guidelines, or I can't because the basis for game B (game A) did not in the first place?It would be impossible for a commercial game to somehow branch out as a doujin game. If you really intended the project to go doujin, it would be changed to free to play... but that's still isn't really doujin per se, it's just a now-free indie work. Expanding on that, trying to paste someone else's doujin IP onto your work after the fact, even if you make your original work free, would be IP theft at worst and just look like a pathetic attempt to grab attention at best. You'd better have some sort of solid deal with the IP owner to pull off something like that. On a completely different note, if you have a game you published commercially but are making side games based off of it like pet projects, that seems fine, especially if it's your own IP.
@ N-Forza, A lot of things that supposidely are beyond doujin happen to doujin's though. Even though I've been told that Steam is a nogo for doujin because most people on steam don't know doujins, doujin games do exist on steam (just one example).Three important considerations:
I don't think you realize how much work that would be. The bulk content of fighting game development is around individual characters, rather than primary game mechanics. Animation work in particular is very heavy in comparison to everything else. I agree having completely different characters would be best, but that would be a stupendously difficult thing to do.
A wii U game called "Doujin Spirit" with a story about doujin spirit.
Ironic? Sure. Weird? Sure. But I don't see anything wrong with that.
I know that that doujin spirit really seems to rival fight-club levels of inclusiveness, but to me that only seems to be a bigger part of the problem.
--I don't know if you guys get it--
The only practical way to make both games is if they are identical apart from iconography and visual/sound design. There is no other way to do it.
And I don't really get why people keep on calling it "skirting the rules" because that seems to suggest that things will be done sneakily, and we should all know by know, that when I do anything, I do it loud and clear.
We already established the point of it is to get both a WiiU/Steam release and a seperate Doujin release.
It would be impossible for a commercial game to somehow branch out as a doujin game. If you really intended the project to go doujin, it would be changed to free to play... but that's still isn't really doujin per se, it's just a now-free indie work. Expanding on that, trying to paste someone else's doujin IP onto your work after the fact, even if you make your original work free, would be IP theft at worst and just look like a pathetic attempt to grab attention at best. You'd better have some sort of solid deal with the IP owner to pull off something like that.
I asked a question to that effect earlier. It has to be one or the other...... Unless you're going to make two separate games, you can't release a commercial indie game, change a few models/textures around, and then re-release that same game as a "doujin" game..... It doesn't work that way.That's not exactly the case, they'd be co-developed and both be equally addressed on the FSS YT and FB pages. I really don't see why "it doesn't work that way."
Saijee tell me a reason why this needs a non Touhou version to go on steam or even be on steam in the first place.
Wii U version will allow the game to be played in a pragmatic way during actual Smash Scene tourny events without the need of extra equipment. I know that Touhou has been a big part of the appeal for a lot of people here. But there are also quite a lot of fans of the game for it's competitive smash design.
Steam: As I've said before, many people, even including people who aren't saucers, have expressed that they either want this on steam or would be more interested if it will be on steam.
It's that simple.
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If there needs to be more reason, I could make it to where the Steam/Wii U version also includes some additional characters that are simply apart from touhou.
I don't think you understand the smash scene.
Do you? No offense but they won't come over here other than to play a bit for fun when they already have the established PM, melee and Smash4Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.
Sakurai has NEVER tried to cater to that side of the game.
Even now he's trying to make the game MORE casual and people are still going for it.
Sakurai is making the game to be fun not to be competitive. Meanwhile you're focusing too much on the competitive side even to the point of scrapping the deal on items and now trying to push a Wii-U version because you think that will improve it. You do NOT make a game have a healthy competitive scene only the community does.
Do you think PC games don't have scenes themselves?
I'm quite interested in seeing what you think I don't know about the competitive scene of gaming.
Sakurai has NEVER tried to cater to that side of the game.
Even now he's trying to make the game MORE casual and people are still going for it.
Sakurai is making the game to be fun not to be competitive. Meanwhile you're focusing too much on the competitive side even to the point of scrapping the deal on items and now trying to push a Wii-U version because you think that will improve it. You do NOT make a game have a healthy competitive scene only the community does.
Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.A windows tablet or small netbook isn't that burdensome.
Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.
I feel like ripping off Touhou just enough to be both "lol it's original!!!" and actually touhou would be worse than going completely in either directionAgain, your making it sound like I'm sneaking at night when I'd be making every effort possible to make it clearly obvious what's getting done though FB, YT and possibly news articles. It's not going to be a secret. It's not "lol it's original" It's : hey this is a mod of a Touhou fan game.
you'd still be making money off touhou, with different names and a different color palette except this time you're not even giving credit
Remember this is all under these assumptions:
1) When we were notified that TSA accused FSS of copyright infringment, they didn't really mean it.
2) TSA is informed and fine with the idea of the 2 versions, one touhou and one non-touhou.
If even one of those turns out to be false, the Touhou version won't happen, because as our priorities have shifted, that has become more auxiliary.
Remember this is all under these assumptions:Corrections:
1) When we were notified that TSA accused FSS of copyright infringment, they didn't really mean it.
2) TSA is informed and fine with the idea of the 2 versions, one touhou and one non-touhou.
If even one of those turns out to be false, the Touhou version won't happen, because as our priorities have shifted, that has become more auxiliary.
Hmmm tell me if I'm wrong but isn't the issue of whether or not a Touhou game can be made is up to TSA and not FSS at the moment?Whether or not Touhou Smash game can be made at the moment is not up to TSA, but to FSS.
I thought you guys agreed that if FSS send an E-mail and get a "confirmation" from TSA that it is indeed fine, then FSS can make a Touhou game.
@ nintendofreak768 Actually: originally I was hoping to make a game FOR competitive smashers that might introduce them to Touhou. Not the other way around.
@ Reu, it was a dream for a long time. But, I've moved on already. I'm already willing to accept that this may never be able to be a Touhou.
EDIT: Most of us are near positive that IGG sent what was essentially an automated email regarding the copyright takedown notice that WASNT directly from ZUN. It was filed to remove the campaign, nothing more. I don't know why you don't believe us.
I actually believe I said that included non-fans too. You don't need to look any further than any comment thread under one of the many articles about TSSB that spun off of Nintendo Nuggets article.
Belief is a very strange thing, but we don't get to choose our own beliefs , those are things that we conclude based off our past experiences and accumulated knowledge of the world.
Fair enough, I told myself if one of you said you would listen then I'll send one more email.
I will make deal then. I'll send this email and relay the information on the forums exactly as they respond.
Regardless of whether FSS is clear of the copyright issue of the game though. We are not going to take the risk of continuing the smash game under the Touhou name for extra precautions.
However...if they say that FSS does indeed still have the ability to create a Touhou game then when the new game is finished, we will release a modded version of the game featuring the original roster and replace the character models. After the development of the new smash game is completed.
Let me ask you this: Why don't you trust me? What's so hard to believe that TSA would accuse FSS of copyright infringement? Why would I lie about something like that?
But here, we are 200% certain Saijee is twisting the e-mail responses he received. He is every time shutting himself and back paddling when the e-mail comes up. It is just suspicious as hell and I am not the only one.Sounds to me like he believes I'm lying.
The thing is I think that Monhon is incorrect. I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far.Assumptions, assumptions and assumptions. And worst of all, they are all false.
Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.See, you don't trust us. You still, until this moment, treat us like: "You're not ZUN, I don't listen to you." You don't even listen to Ruw-san, who seems a very close friend of ZUN and well informed about this all.
Sounds to me like he believes I'm lying.
The key word when I read it was "twisting."Could you kindly shed your judgement on my answer? You asked a question, I answered it. What is your judgement of my post.
Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
The key word when I read it was "twisting."So, what do you call taking words out of context or using the wrong meaning?
Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
The key word when I read it was "twisting."And "lies" are formed when someone purposely twist the truth, when they know what the truth is.
Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
@ Firestorm29, I call it being mistaken.And you're ok with pulling the plug on your dream blindly?
The thing is I think that Monhon is incorrect. I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far.Assumptions, assumptions and assumptions. And worst of all, they are all false.
Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.See, you don't trust us. You still, until this moment, treat us like: "You're not ZUN, I don't listen to you." You don't even listen to Ruw-san, who seems a very close friend of ZUN and well informed about this all.
If you would have asked Saijee from 10 days ago, I would have said no. But I've been through so much since then, that now: I can say I am fine with doing that.And yet, it's so hard for you to drop the other one, WiiU, now? Even though you've already done that a few days ago.
Like I keep saying: Touhou would only be an auxiliary thing for NSDS now, it's no longer and never will be a primary directive.
If you would have asked Saijee from 10 days ago, I would have said no. But I've been through so much since then, that now: I can say I am fine with doing that.
Well, quite disappointing to see my posts being ignored and still noise being added. Sad but partially not surprising, after all it is a heated discussion.I gave you your answer Helepolis.
I'll be observing the rest of the thread life-time as planned then make the required moderations. Until then, please stick with the topic.
--Helepolis
I gave you your answer Helepolis.What's so wrong about Helepolis' posts?
I gave you your answer Helepolis.And where is that by the way? I must've missed it.
I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far. Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.
pasu: Depends, although seeing as how Capcom tried and failed to protect the format of Street Fighter 2 against the cavalcade of imitations, it seems unlikely they'd succeed.
Also, Ruw just tweeted this: https://twitter.com/Ruw/status/558857250417033216/photo/1
Anywhere in the indie side of the chart can have its origins in doujin settings like Comiket, but any derivative fan work would fall in the pure doujin side, meaning it has no place in the indie market.
This means that anyone, including FSS, could make a Touhou Smash game provided it went nowhere near anything on the left side of the chart.
I wasn't necessarily trying to convince him, I was posting for the benefit of others as well who might possibly be confused as to the difference.
Hey, uh, I'm kind of worried that this is off topic but, one thing I haven't seen brought up in the discussion so far is really bothering me:
is Nintendo really fine with letting someone rip off one of their game's mechanics? Pertaining to smash attacks especially, I haven't played many fighters (soku, skullgirls, smash, that's what I can remember off the top of my head) but won't Nintendo be able to file a copyright claim against your game because of that? I mean, your promo materials are even a copy of smash's. (eg reimu crosses the border)
edit: I don't know much about American/Japanese laws, but currently I'm studying copyright law of my country so this matter really got my attention
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.