Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!

[Sagus]

I don't think so. It doesn't make any sense that she wouldn't be able to stop the heroine without killing her. She can't just beat her up or something? And further, why listen to her demands after that (i.e. put a stop to the tourism)? Even if you want to say she would have done that anyway (as it seems she will in Reimu's scenario), why then pick a fight with Reimu only to feign defeat?

Because everyone in this games is psychotic and likes fighting. She didn't kill them/bet them at once because she didn't want to. Done.
Note, I'm not saying this is what actually happened. I'm saying that if one can interpret it this way, if one wants to reconcile the "semi-omnipotent" Shinki image with the fact that she can lose a battle.

And I really don't see where this "Makai being destroyed" thing is coming from. That's just insaneballs.

As previously stated in this very thread, it's based on the fact that Makai in the background was in flames at the end of the battle against her. Although I dunno why you're bringing this up, considering that the hypothetical justification for Shinki not using her full power that I mentioned would be her wishing to not blow Makai up.

I am extremely opposed to this interpretation of what she says.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I really don't care. It is, as you said, an interpretation. You disagree with it, I subscribe to it, but at the end of the day canon, specially PC-98, is vague enough to allow for neither of us to be definitely correct. That said...

I would take that to mean that she did not fabricate Yumeko from thin air, but that since she created Makai, she just views everything that comes from it as her creation. And that's just so much less silly.

Dude
are you really saying that having a god that can create beings from its own power is "ludicrous", but having one "plant" a dimension, waiting for it to evolve naturally to the point of it having sentient beings, and then suddenly revealing herself and saying "I'M YOUR GOD WORKSHIP ME" is "much less silly"? I'm sorry, to me is the other way around. Gods directly creating life and worlds and etc by themselves is the most common thing in mythologies.

That dialogue you quoted can simply be taken as "She isn't a simple construct, she's one of the sentient beings of Makai". Shinki is explicitly said to have created Makai and everything in it. How exactly is a sentient being from Makai exempt from that? I mean, she outrigt says to Reimu:

Out of everything I've created,
Yumeko was of the highest caliber...

You have to entirely ignore that to say that Shinki didn't directly create Yumeko. I mean, she's debating the strength of the things she made. If the only thing she did was kickstart Makai, what would she be gauging Yumeko's strength to?

I mean, sure, interpret things like that if you want, but don't jump on me saying that my interpretation is somehow wronger than yours because to you mine is "ludicrous", 'cause yours makes as little sense to me as mine does to you.

[Tiamat]

Shinki to Yuuka: Are you making light of Makai?  I'll have you know I made everything here.

Shinki:  Out of everything I've created,
Yumeko was of the highest
caliber...
To have defeated her,
it's clear you're not just a
nobody.

Mima:  That girl from before is something you
created?

Shinki:  Oh, pardon me.
I'm the one who created Makai.
I am the god of Makai.
So you see, Yumeko wasn't
a golem or anything, she was just a
normal inhabitant of Makai.


Seems pretty unambiguous to me, assuming the translation is correct.  (to clarify that last one, taking into account Shinki's statement before Mima's question, she's saying Yumeko is an actual normal sentient being created by her god powers, not just some golem construct)




Reimu:  You keep saying you
"created" things. Do you
think you're a god or something?
 
Shinki :  Oh, please pardon my late introduction.
That is correct - I am a god.
This world of Makai is my creation



Shinki: But if I remember correctly, the world over there has about eight million, right?

Mima:  If someone that weak could become a god, then I wonder if I can, too?  One of eight million (sweatdrop)  ...er, what do I do to become a god, anyway?  For that matter, was she actually a god (sweatdrop)
 


...may or may not be relevant. *shrug*

[Zil]

I mean, sure, interpret things like that if you want, but don't jump on me saying that my interpretation is somehow wronger than yours because to you mine is "ludicrous", 'cause yours makes as little sense to me as mine does to you.

All I did was post here and respond to what you said. There may not be solid evidence one way or the other but we can at least try to look at the most reasonable assumptions.

As previously stated in this very thread, it's based on the fact that Makai in the background was in flames at the end of the battle against her. Although I dunno why you're bringing this up, considering that the hypothetical justification for Shinki not using her full power that I mentioned would be her wishing to not blow Makai up.

It was you who brought it up by using it to support your idea. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense. Drake didn't so much support the argument as he pointed out that that there is no evidence behind it. (Assuming I read the tone of his post correctly anyway. If that was supposed to be a succinct explanation then shame on him.) If you're planing to use it you ought to have a better reason than "the background for the final boss of an infernal dimension is on fire, therefore the whole dimension is being destroyed." Especially when there is apparently no dialogue suggesting that was happening whatsoever. It's just a background. It means next to nothing.

Dude
are you really saying that having a god that can create beings from its own power is "ludicrous", but having one "plant" a dimension, waiting for it to evolve naturally to the point of it having sentient beings, and then suddenly revealing herself and saying "I'M YOUR GOD WORKSHIP ME" is "much less silly"?

Yes. I'd think her creating an environment of objectively lesser complexity is naturally a lesser assumption. You're suggesting that she not only created the entirety of Makai piece by piece, but then held it in some kind of stasis, so that nothing new would ever be born aside from things which she conjures into existence herself. No creatures ever reproduce, no fairies ever spawn naturally, no magicians ever summon familiars. If you're going to take her statement to be so invariably absolute, all of that must follow. (And furthermore, technically speaking, if any visitors from outside Makai *coughreimucough* happened to be in it at the time she said that, it would be trivially false to begin with.)

I'm saying she shows up, conjures some demons, perhaps even starts a civilization of some kind, and then things proceed from there. She doesn't disappear, but she also does not build the entire dimension brick by brick, and any given creature there can be assumed to have been born by normal means. She thinks of Makai as her creation and given that Makai is a living, changing place, she views everything that comes from it as one of her creations as well. Maybe the precise word "creation" is slightly awkward to use like that, but the text has been translated from Japanese, and in any case, I think this is a far more natural way of looking at it. (About creation myths, as far as I'm aware most of them tend to start from something simpler than the society/world that was ultimately created, and a notable point is often that whatever gods created the world have become considerably less active than they were at the beginning.)

[Sagus]

It was you who brought it up by using it to support your idea. I'm saying it doesn't make any sense. Drake didn't so much support the argument as he pointed out that that there is no evidence behind it. (Assuming I read the tone of his post correctly anyway. If that was supposed to be a succinct explanation then shame on him.) If you're planing to use it you ought to have a better reason than "the background for the final boss of an infernal dimension is on fire, therefore the whole dimension is being destroyed." Especially when there is apparently no dialogue suggesting that was happening whatsoever. It's just a background. It means next to nothing.

Holy hell dude I'm not using the idea that Makai was actually destroyed in-game to support to my interpretation my gods
I stated that one could hypotethically explain her being able to lose as "She holds back her power to avoid destroying Makai". That's all. I'm not saying Makai was destroyed in the game. I'm not saying that she displayed enough power to do so. I'm not saying anything relating to any actual destruction having happened.

Yes. I'd think her creating an environment of objectively lesser complexity is naturally a lesser assumption. You're suggesting that she not only created the entirety of Makai piece by piece, but then held it in some kind of stasis, so that nothing new would ever be born aside from things which she conjures into existence herself. No creatures ever reproduce, no fairies ever spawn naturally, no magicians ever summon familiars. If you're going to take her statement to be so invariably absolute, all of that must follow.

I'm saying she shows up, conjures some demons, perhaps even starts a civilization of some kind, and then things proceed from there. She doesn't disappear, but she also does not build the entire dimension brick by brick, and any given creature there can be assumed to have been born by normal means. She thinks of Makai as her creation and given that Makai is a living, changing place, she views everything that comes from it as one of her creations as well. Maybe the precise word "creation" is slightly awkward to use like that, but the text has been translated from Japanese, and in any case, I think this is a far more natural way of looking at it. (About creation myths, as far as I'm aware most of them tend to start from something simpler than the society/world that was ultimately created, and a notable point is often that whatever gods created the world have become considerably less active than they were at the beginning.)

Shinki says "I made all the shit here". Nothing contradicts this. Nothing points towards her lying. Nothing. As "unnatural" as it seems to you (which baffles me considering that we're dealing with characters that are gods and therefore are already unnatural to begin with, and keep in mind this game is from before Touhou gods had the limitations we now know they have), I entirely fail to see why she would be unable to create everything herself, or why exactly it'd be so bizzare that everything in that world is static (since Shinki created it, she can just keep it the way she wants).

And hell, who is saying that everything there is static, anyway? Shinki can simply be considered the creator deity of that world. She shaped the world, created some servants for herself (like Yumeko), and watched it evolve naturally. When civilization started she placed herself as their ruler. Simple.

(And furthermore, technically speaking, if any visitors from outside Makai *coughreimucough* happened to be in it at the time she said that, it would be trivially false to begin with.)

......*sigh*

[Zil]

Shinki can simply be considered the creator deity of that world. She shaped the world, created some servants for herself (like Yumeko), and watched it evolve naturally. When civilization started she placed herself as their ruler. Simple.

This is more or less what I've been trying to say. I don't know why you're being so abrasive.

[Sagus]

This is more or less what I've been trying to say. I don't know why you're being so abrasive.

I apologize, I tend to get too worked up over the simplest things.

We do seem to have different ideas regarding the full extent of her power, but since that would be in the realm of powerlevel discussions, I won't dwell on it.

[Biakmon]

How Reimu or the others (except Yukari) manage to enter heaven actually? Is there an entrance to Heaven?

Just to make sure, their an entrance to both "Mekai" and "Hell" but both can be said to technically lie in another dimension (or whatever name you prefer). So do we don't know whether their another way for the characters (except Yukari) to access those realms apart for those entrances, isn't?

[Alcoraiden]

Well, Former Hell is just really far underground. You can get there if you walk far enough and know where to find the path. I assume Heaven is the same way; fly high enough and eventually you can find the route there. The Netherworld has a big gate that normally you can't go through, but there *is* a gate. So I assume that if you're special enough, you could get to any of the afterlives by trying hard enough, but you can't be a resident there unless you're dead (or a Celestial or Oni or some other such creature).

[Prime32]

Tenshi's home, Bhava-agra/Uchouten (translates very roughly as "Heaven at the Peak of the World"), can be reached from the top of Youkai Mountain. It's unclear how easy it is to travel from there to the other parts of Heaven.

[Sagus]

Former Hell appears to by in the same physical place as Gensokyo, just really far down underground. The current Hell, where sinners are currently sent, has yet to make an actual appearance in the series, unless you count the "Hell route" of HRtP as taking place in it.

Makai is definitely a different "dimension" or "world" or whatever. I assume that the same applies to both Bhava-agra and the current Hell; in Bhava-agra's case, it's just that the entrance is "climb high enough".

but you can't be a resident there unless you're dead (or a Celestial or Oni or some other such creature).

Suika became a resident there because Tenshi gave her some land (without the approval of other celestials, it seems), so she's a special case; normally you'd have to achieve nirvana to actually live there.

[Prime32]

Suika became a resident there because Tenshi gave her some land (without the approval of other celestials, it seems), so she's a special case; normally you'd have to achieve nirvana to actually live there.

According to Akyuu, Nirvana is a different thing entirely. The people there are still considered celestials, but they don't have physical bodies (requiring them to possess mortals if they visit Earth).

[Biakmon]

Can someone list those so called *contradiction* found between the PC-98 and the Windows games? I mean apart from the most obvious one like the characters appearance (i.e. hair color) and maybe change in personality.

[Imosa]

Former Hell appears to by in the same physical place as Gensokyo, just really far down underground. The current Hell, where sinners are currently sent, has yet to make an actual appearance in the series, unless you count the "Hell route" of HRtP as taking place in it.

Former Hell isn't within the Hakurei barrier so I figure it must have some kind of similar protection around it, if it is to still be within the earth, right?

[Sagus]

Can someone list those so called *contradiction* found between the PC-98 and the Windows games? I mean apart from the most obvious one like the characters appearance (i.e. hair color) and maybe change in personality.

As far as I know, other than character appearances, there is none. PC-98 had barely any info about the setting or it's metaphysics, so there really isn't much to be contradicted in the first place.

Former Hell isn't within the Hakurei barrier so I figure it must have some kind of similar protection around it, if it is to still be within the earth, right?

To be honest that's what I really want to believe, since it just makes sense, and the wiki does say that's implied that Former Hell is a different world, but for the life of me I can't find a canon source to confirm this.
It's driving me crazy

[Starxsword]

Can someone list those so called *contradiction* found between the PC-98 and the Windows games? I mean apart from the most obvious one like the characters appearance (i.e. hair color) and maybe change in personality.

You'll have to go through the game and look at what makes sense. For example, do you think it makes sense for Reimu to want to destroy the world, as implied by Highly Responsive to Prayers? Or Reimu going through the Hell route, as we now know that is the Yama's jurisdiction. Just stuff like that. But as already mentioned, there is hardly any information on PC-98, so contradiction only happens if you interpret it some ways.

To be honest that's what I really want to believe, since it just makes sense, and the wiki does say that's implied that Former Hell is a different world, but for the life of me I can't find a canon source to confirm this.

I don't think that is the case. Former Hell seems to be in the same dimension as Gensokyo. At least nothing seems to suggest that it is in another dimension, unlike the Netherworld.

Also, doesn't it mentioned that Hokkai borders Former Hell?

[Fonzi]

Hokkai is a region in Makai, and AFAIK has nothing to do with Hell or Former Hell.

[Sagus]

I don't think that is the case. Former Hell seems to be in the same dimension as Gensokyo. At least nothing seems to suggest that it is in another dimension, unlike the Netherworld.

...I know. That's what I meant when I said "can't find any canon info on it being a different world".

Also, doesn't it mentioned that Hokkai borders Former Hell?

Nope.

[Starxsword]

Depends on how you interpret it. On this page, it talks about the underground. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4.

Byakuren: I went there a few times, checking to see if we had left anything behind in the place where the Flying Vault(*1) was sealed.

If you were to assume the Flying Vault is sealed where Byakuren was sealed, then it would make sense for the underground to border Hokkai.
I thought the underground was synonymous to the Hell of Blazing Fires, but it may not be.

[Polaris]

But the Flying Vault wasn't sealed at the same place Byakuren was sealed :V The Flying Vault was underground, but it was unsealed by the geyser in SA, and then was collected during UFO in order to help unseal Byakuren, who was all the way in Hokkai. Two completely separate places.

[Drake]

Moreover, the Hell of Blazing Fires/Remains of Blazing Hell (use the latter; more accurate) is just a subset of the underground. The Former Capital and Chireiden are above it, in Former Hell.
I can see how it's easy to confuse "Former Hell" and "bla bla Blazing Hell" but their actual terms are quite different (旧地獄 vs 灼熱地獄跡).

[Fonzi]

I'm more inclined to think that the Hell of Blazing Fires IS Former Hell, or one of its parts, along with the Ancient City and Palace of the Earth Spirits.

[Drake]

Yes, excuse me, I did mean that they were all in Former Hell (the Capital and Chireiden being above the Remains), but that the two terms aren't interchangeable. For the most part "Former Hell" is just referred to as the place where youkai actually live, i.e. the Capital, Chireiden, etc. The Remains of Blazing Hell is part of it even just if it used to be part of Hell, and it's said to be in Former Hell a bunch of times in Utsuho's SoPM article.

As said, generally when they talk about the area where characters live they use Former Hell (mostly just to refer to the City+Palace area), and the Remains of Blazing Hell is just that particular bit (even if hell ravens live there). But the point was just that the two "Hell"s aren't interchangeable.

[monhan]

While we're talking about Hokkai, I wanna ask why is the only way to go there is by using the Palanquin Ship? Or rather, what makes it able to do that? Since they still have the ship, can they visit that place again?
I'm quite sure they mentioned this somewhere but I just can't remember where.

For the Former Hell, yeah, I think it were the places during SA.
Though as Hell, they had layers(right?), the Hell of Blazing Fires being one of them. Koishi also mentioned the Pool of Blood in Hell. I wonder if we'll see them in the future or ZUN will show just how big it is..., and the Yama still thought it was too small.

Some questions about Byakuren.
She was sealed in Hokkai, and it is a part of Makai. Were she able to travel around Makai during her sealing?
Also, any explanation on why Nue's power of the unknown didn't work on Byakuren? She saw them UFOs only as pieces of wood, it's real form. She also remembered Koishi in SoPM.
And later in HM, she almost immediately saw through Mamizou's disguise. Is this mentioned anywhere or was it her just being super?

[CyberAngel]

Since they still have the ship, can they visit that place again?
I'm quite sure they mentioned this somewhere but I just can't remember where.

Spoiler:

UFO MarisaA good ending.

Some questions about Byakuren.
She was sealed in Hokkai, and it is a part of Makai. Were she able to travel around Makai during her sealing?

Considering not even wind could get into sealed Hokkai, odds are that no. Well, technically, since Hokkai is just a part of Makai, it's yes with the exception of the rest of Makai outside of Hokkai.

[Rei Scarlette]

A small question that probably doesn't require it's own topic, how can you take screenshots in Double Spoiler? It doesn't seem to be working as the other games do. I know how to get them manually with Print Screen, of course, but this limits me to one at a time until I exit the game and save them as an actual image file. While that works, it isn't the best option.
After a quick search, I found that the Home button should take a screenshot of the game, and indeed it creates a slight delay as if it would be generating and saving the screenshot. However, the folder remains completely empty. After pressing a few things, I've found that the P button will create a similar delay as if it was going to do the same thing, but still no screenshot. Are either of these correct?

The folder I found that I'm assuming would hold them is [E:\Touhou\12.5　ダブルスポイラー\snapshot] with E:\Touhou being the location where I install the games to on my secondary drive. Is that right, or am I just looking in the wrong place? Though for it to be incorrect would make me wonder why a snapshot folder is even located there...

If it turns out to actually be some technical issue, I'll post this over at Tech Support if needed. For now though, I wanna be sure I'm even doing it right.

[Drake]

12.5 was the first game that started using the AppData folders for scores, replays, snapshots, etc.
C:\Users\you\AppData\Roaming\ShanghaiAlice\th125

[Rei Scarlette]

Oh, I see. Now I wonder why that snapshot folder is in 12.5's folder, but I guess I may have placed it there myself if I tried to fix it some time before I forgot about it. Finally seeing those screenshots over at AppData\Roaming\ShanghaiAlice\th125, thank you!

[Clarste]

Her ability to create an entire dimension does imply her to be something greater than the other gods we have seen, yeah. Since no being since then has show such power, and since she's PC-98, arguing what exactly applies to her or not using our current canon is pretty much impossible.

Miko created an entire dimension. Not too difficult, apparently. Admittedly filling it with people seems like it would be more complicated.

[Sagus]

Miko created an entire dimension. Not too difficult, apparently. Admittedly filling it with people seems like it would be more complicated.

one is a vast land (from what we can infer from the fact that there is a fortress and frozen regions and non-frozen regions and a place called "romantic city" and a "provincial city" and shit) filled with sentient beings and cities

the other one is a house

I don't think they can be compared.

But, that's just my opinion.

[TrueShadow]

If you want headcanon, mine is that Shinki is extremely powerful, but uses most of her powers keeping Makai stable, so she can only use a portion of her actual power against the playable characters.