Saving Nitori Kappashiro

[EtriusSierra]

It's been almost 2 weeks since Nitori Kappashiro's YouTube channel was terminated, as a result of a technical glitch involving multiple copyright strikes being sent to videos which were already deleted/resolved months prior with the actual complainant (Vermillion D Alice Syndrome). It's a huge blow for the Touhou community, with the lose of a 38,000+ subscriber base, 2500+ video uploads featuring music from countless music circles/artists.

The petition: https://www.change.org/p/google-youtube-restore-nitori-kappashiro-s-youtube-channel?just_created=true#petition-letter

We're trying to tackle this problem from multiple angles. I've managed to enlist the help of a Senior IT and Solutions Architect to spread the word through his contacts, some of whom directly affiliated with Google/Youtube.

Spread the word.

[Romantique Tp]

What a huge blow to lazy people who listen to illegally uploaded music on YouTube out of all places...

I don't think it needs to be said but Google doesn't care about these online petitions. With 1000 signatures you would at most make them scratch their heads. They wont even look into it with only 100.

[EtriusSierra]

I think you're neglecting the fact that through Content ID, music circles/artists can choose to monetise their music on NK's channel, allowing the subscriber base to effectively pay through ad revenue.
And with users who listen to their regular playlists, this can continue constantly.
Then there's the fact that music circles/artists become publicised internationally (as per the internet being the internet), instead of just being limited to a local/national market, bolstered by a 38k subscriber base.
For some music circles/artists, having their music uploaded and monetised may be the only way to get money internationally, given that they may not possess the resources to be published overseas anyway.
On top of all this, NK doesn't even make a cent from any of the uploads, as stated at the bottom of each and every upload description, being that said uploads are non-profitable for the channel.

[Tengukami]

Then there's the fact that music circles/artists become publicised internationally (as per the internet being the internet), instead of just being limited to a local/national market, bolstered by a 38k subscriber base.

In fairness, this is a very common argument used in favor of piracy; the "free publicity" contention.

[Berzul]

Then there's the fact that music circles/artists become publicised internationally (as per the internet being the internet), instead of just being limited to a local/national market, bolstered by a 38k subscriber base.
For some music circles/artists, having their music uploaded and monetised may be the only way to get money internationally, given that they may not possess the resources to be published overseas anyway.

I wanna see Mazope guy posting on this thread, if you can spread the word to him that is...

[FLASH]

What a huge blow to lazy people who listen to illegally uploaded music on YouTube out of all places...

what's this Elitism doushbaggery all of a sudden? 

Sure, i never support Piracy; but this is not the 70's anymore where people had to take a leap of faith blind buying entire albums and possibly find out they didn't like 80% of the songs on it.
The poeple who want to pirate it are,whether you like it or not, gonna pirate it. regardless if it's also on youtube or whatever.
On the other hand, being able to listen to the music for free is good for the consumer: they can be sure they like what they buy, and for the artist: trough the sheer free exposure they get, it offsets by large the few sales lost from poeple who prefer to turn on youtube everytime rather than buy the album. let's be fair, if they go to youtube everytime, they probably whouldn't buy the album if it were removed from the internet. they'd be just like "Heh, whatever!" and move on to something else.

Obviously, most Circles think the same if we consider the number of videos on Niconico and Youtube of their song they let off, and never even tried to remove.

As long as the Uploader give full credit to the album and circle for the song, and doesn't actively encourages piracy (by not giving a download link in the desctription for example), and do remove the video immediately if the artists ask, then i think this is fine.

PS#1 :
this is especially true for an indie/doujin community; where things work mostly by Word of Mouth, Having large scale free exposure for a maximum of people to be easily able to try out your game/song and see if they like it, and invite their friends to check it out too, ect... is very useful.

not even speaking of the fact that without having these big videos, with lots of view and exposure on youtube, most of us whould never have found out about Touhou in the first place...
i know i do at any rate, and i'm forever thankful to Belisaria Yagami for that! 

PS#2:
OP says in this case, it's a Copyright bot bug and these are claims on videos that were long removed ( i can believe this since youtube's implementation of DMCA is notoriously incompetent and glitchy)
if that is true , then i see no objective reason why Google shouldn't put the channel back up; as there is no legit standing claims on it right now.

[Cadmas]

PS#2:
OP says in this case, it's a Copyright bot bug and these are claims on videos that were long removed ( i can believe this since youtube's implementation of DMCA is notoriously incompetent and glitchy)
if that is true , then i see no objective reason why Google shouldn't put the channel back up; as there is no legit standing claims on it right now.

Another poop thing about their system is that channels with a lot of company backing can also get through the system a lot quicker.

[M M]

I'll try signing it, hope it comes back.

I've brought albums and became fan of some bands thanks to Youtube, a lot of stuff isn't mainstream enough to reach people by media like Radio or TV. I don't know how the doujin scene works but I imagine it would be even harder for them without internet exposure.

[Formless God]

What a huge blow to lazy people who listen to illegally uploaded music on YouTube out of all places...

On the other hand that channel was pretty useful against lazy circles who didn't put their crossfades on a sensible place

[Tribow]

Some may see it as a lazy way to listen to doujin circles, but look at it this way.

How in the heck would you find these obscure circles if you can't go to the events where these circles give out their albums without a helpful person introducing you to these circles.

Nitori is one of those people,

Plus a lot of these circles actually give out their music for free. Like Audio Serrata for example.

If it wasn't for Nitori I wouldn't even know about Audio Serrata anyway. They're from Australia by the way and they're one of the most obscure circles ever.


WE NEED NITORI BAHCK

[Drake]

People make the same argument for Touhou becoming popular in the West as well. If there wasn't a culture of piracy around the games, people wouldn't play them and it wouldn't spread as much as it has. The thing is that you can acknowledge these facts and still be against rampant piracy and be against spreading it even further. There reaches a point where the end does not justify the means, and with Touhou as a whole it's so bad that people don't even realize the series isn't freeware.

People keep talking about Nitori taking down music when requested, but that completely ignores that they didn't have the right to put it up in the first place. You don't just pirate all the shit you can and then only get rid of the stuff people complain about. Yes, they're doujin circles and in general they might not care all that much that you're uploading their works without permission, but that doesn't make it okay. Just because they can find the channel after-the-fact and choose to monetize, doesn't make it okay. Moreover, the argument that most circles don't actively take down unauthorized uploads of their content and therefore don't care, is also totally absurd and I find it hard to believe anyone thinking about that for two seconds would think that flies. They're at best a handful of people with little to no resources. It is not worth any individual's time to go track down people who have appropriated your content, and it's entirely possible that the circle has done so in the past but people just keep on uploading to the point where you can't whack-a-mole anymore.

Yes, in the doujin community people generally appreciate whatever publicity they can get, but that doesn't make it okay to go ahead without their consent. How to have your cake and eat it too? Just get their consent! Clearly if the artists are so supposedly alright with people uploading their music, there is little to be lost from simply confirming that you have permission, right?

Even if the circles give out their music for free, it's worth the small bother of simply asking the creators whether you can upload their works for public consumption. Heck, even if they don't technically give you their music for free, if you get permission to upload it anyways then it's all good. Ask them before you even start and show that they have the additional option of monetizing straight away, rather than waiting for them to find it and decide whether they want to 1) take action against you or 2) take the money, and thereby implicitly support this pirating of doujin works. You really can't make the argument for monetization when none of the circles are ever told about it, for crying out loud. If you aren't being either incredibly lazy or incredibly dishonest, there is no reason for this not to be an option. Just by going through this step you both avoid backlash, and you have good support for defending against e.g. Youtube strikes. Everyone talking about how this strike shouldn't technically exist just makes me think "Gee whiz, there's this channel made up of almost entirely pirated music and there may have been a bug where a strike for one pirated track was applied twice! Wow I feel so much need to help this channel get back on its feet since obviously they didn't deserve this!"

You know what else could realistically address (even further) the argument of "it's free publicity, and people who want to buy the album will still buy it"? Putting together and uploading crossfades, both for circles that already have crossfades and the ones that don't, or who otherwise make them nontrivial to access. This isn't mutually exclusive with asking circle's permission to upload an entire album, either. This can even be applied specifically for circles that don't want their full albums uploaded publicly, or for circles uploading crossfades themselves before an event. "No I don't give you permission to upload the album, but if you want to help us get publicity by uploading a crossfade and/or linking to purchase options that would be great." Wow. Done. Maximum respect and good publicity.

[Abraham Lincoln]

So...do I help Kappashiro or not? :/

[Tribow]

A very good point

I actually always thought kappashiro got permission to upload the music.

Heh I could be wrong, but does anyone even know if she/he even got permission or not?

[FLASH]

So...do I help Kappashiro or not? :/

well, YOU Decide!

Drake has good points; i still honestly thinks (see my Post earlier) that this is a situaton where the pros outweight the cons.
but it is undeniable that it whould be much better and more respectful to actually Ask the artists before everytime. that's how i'd do it if i upload music to any popular media.
another thing he didn't brought out is that if they want Public exposure they can create a Youtube channel themself to post their videos there, some do (like IOSYS or Marasy) ; without having someone random do it for them without authorisation.

And yet, on the other Hand, you simply cannot Deny either that those circles, or Touhou in general whould have never been known to most of us (who have since bought it Legitimately) if it weren't for having stumbled upon one of those illegal videos somewhere, someday.
Suddenly trying to push them under the Bus from behind, as despicable Pirates simply feels hypocritical. (at least to me, cause that's sure how i discovered touhou and most all of my favourite music remixes )

so i think both opinions are pretty defendable here to be honest.

SPOILER ALERT:
it doesn't matter anyway because that petition is never going to do anything in any reality...  :derp:
the only way whould be for the Nitori Kappashiro owner to go contact Google Him/Herself and see what exactly happened; if it's really a bug, i see no reason why his channel shouldn't be put back up.
But Internet Petitions.... Yeah, they're nothing but a long running Joke! :p

[Tengukami]

you simply cannot Deny either that those circles, or Touhou in general whould have never been known to most of us (who have since bought it Legitimately) if it weren't for having stumbled upon one of those illegal videos somewhere, someday.

But ... he isn't denying it? In fact he allowed this is the case. What he's taking issue with is uploading material, in its entirety, without the artists' permission, which points out the real hypocrisy - that if this were really about "promoting doujin artists", they'd be uploading crossfades and providing direct link ordering info, which they do not.

But yes, the entire discussion is academic because this petition will have no effect one way or the other.

[Ozzy]

I totally agree that asking permission is always the way to go, but how easy is it to do so? Isn't there often a language barrier? Would a circle even be likely to respond to a random English-speaker?

[Tengukami]

In lieu of getting permission, they could also upload the official crossfades and have links in the Description to the circle's page and where to order it, I imagine. Since this whole thing is ostensibly about promoting doujin works.

[Ozzy]

I don't think I fully understand what you guys mean by a "crossfade".

[Tengukami]

Ah, OK. It's when you have parts of the songs on the album fading into one another on a seamless audio file. It's a pretty common offering that doijin circles put on their official sites, in order to give listeners a taste of what they can expect without uploading entire songs.

[Drake]

another thing he didn't brought out is that if they want Public exposure they can create a Youtube channel themself to post their videos there, some do (like IOSYS or Marasy) ; without having someone random do it for them without authorisation.

Yeah, but just like I mentioned for groups without crossfades, this can just be work they don't care to do. If we just assume that every circle wants exposure, by that reasoning all of these circles would have Youtube channels. It also totally ignores half the reason people like Nitori get popular anyways -- people want all this music to be available from a single source, whether it's because they want the opportunity to find new artists or they're just too lazy to follow the activity of individual circles.

And yet, on the other Hand, you simply cannot Deny either that those circles, or Touhou in general whould have never been known to most of us (who have since bought it Legitimately) if it weren't for having stumbled upon one of those illegal videos somewhere, someday.

Literally the first paragraph in my last post said this and I talked about why this is a poor defense. I'm not saying that it isn't true (in fact I acknowledge it thoroughly), I'm saying it isn't an excuse, especially when you can still reap the benefits of mass-sharing content while also acting honestly and legitimately. Rather than arguing that it isn't a big deal or that the pros outweigh the cons; is there any reason you can give for Nitori to not get consent from artists? Put another way, is there a benefit that can only be achieved by not asking for consent to upload?

Suddenly trying to push them under the Bus from behind, as despicable Pirates simply feels hypocritical. (at least to me, cause that's sure how i discovered touhou and most all of my favourite music remixes )

Again, I am arguing for the total opposite of shutting down a way to give doujin artists publicity and/or cutting off potential for new fans. The goal is the same. Just do it properly. I don't get why people are like "yeah if I did it I would ask for the artist's consent" but still defend this as though Nitori somehow just can't, yet they could.

I knew the question of language would come up (there's no way it wouldn't), but I think that's a pretty weak minor objection, mainly because:

2500+ video uploads featuring music from countless music circles/artists

It really can't be the case that the language barrier is some sort of total blockade to doing things when you're able to get all these albums in the first place whether purchased or pirated, and more importantly can go through the sheer amount of effort to support 2500+ uploads from plenty of circles. It isn't like they aren't motivated or that they have no idea what they're doing. Even if you can't communicate yourself there's no reason you can't, for example, have a partner who can communicate instead. Asking circles would eventually become basically automated at that scale anyways; the real communication is about understanding individual responses.

[Ozzy]

I knew the question of language would come up (there's no way it wouldn't), but I think that's a pretty weak objection, mainly because:It really can't be the case that the language barrier is some sort of total blockade to doing things when you're able to get all these albums in the first place whether purchased or pirated, and more importantly can go through the sheer amount of effort to support 2500+ uploads from plenty of circles. It isn't like they aren't motivated or that they have no idea what they're doing. Even if you can't communicate yourself there's no reason you can't, for example, have a partner who can communicate instead. Asking circles would eventually become basically automated at that scale anyways; the real communication is about understanding individual responses.

You hadn't brought it up in your previous post so I had wondered what your stance on it was. To be honest, I was only thinking about how I personally would go about contacting circles if I were the one making the uploads and realized that I didn't have an effective method for doing so as I don't know anyone who's necessarily good enough to translate and/or willing to help. But you're right, a huge channel like that ought to be able to find SOME way to do it.

[Soul Devour]

While I think that contacting larger / more active circles is potentially feasible, what about the lesser known circles who may have no contact information, or inactive / defunct circles? If a circle cannot be contacted in any way, be it because there's no contact information or the circle no longer exists, are those songs to never be listened to, except by those who happen to own the CDs?

[Tengukami]

While I think that contacting larger / more active circles is potentially feasible, what about the lesser known circles who may have no contact information, or inactive / defunct circles? If a circle cannot be contacted in any way, be it because there's no contact information or the circle no longer exists, are those songs to never be listened to, except by those who happen to own the CDs?

No, not at all. See prior discussion on crossfades.

[Soul Devour]

No, not at all. See prior discussion on crossfades.

The way you answered how crossfades work implies that they are used to sample a song. While I could see this being the correct choice in terms of active circles with little or no contact info (since they are still active), this still doesn't answer my question in regards to defunct or inactive circles, in which it can be extremely hard or impossible to get a legitimate copy of their CDs.

[Tengukami]

I think if the circles are dead, the question is moot, but we're talking about active circles here.

Incidentally, stringing samples together into a single file is trivially easy to obtain or even make. Many active circles also use means to order their stuff online, and in lieu of that, we have a dedicated thread here for buying physical copies from Japan. In other words we have many ways to bring both attention and revenue to active circles that don't involve piracy.

[Drake]

If we talk about legality and be way overly strict, there's the 70-year period (as of TPP) where works remain protected, but obviously that isn't really appropriate here. In spirit this is still about an author being able to have some degree of control over their works, and there's some amount of time after they're dead/defunct where it's unreasonable to keep protecting. In this case we're talking more about receiving permission from the creator to do "something" with the work, and so if there's a circle where contact is actually infeasible (I wouldn't really count disbanded circles either since they can still be active individually etc) just because they dropped off the map entirely, I think it's a lot safer to assume they don't care about what happens with the status of the works anymore. That being said, to even get to this point you'd already have to be actively trying to find them anyways. This is much less controversial, I think.

If we're talking about a circle's old works that they just don't sell/distribute anymore, I think as long as the circle can be contacted it should not be assumed that you can just go ahead. The main difference is that if you do ask, they're probably more likely to let people upload older works than newer ones anyways.

[Skullbelly]

For an example of a well-made (and creative!) music sample by a fan- this channel has a 50-second sample "music room" play list of ZUN's music collections. I'm not sure of the rules, but I'd imagine that as the music CDs are also doujin works, they cannot be uploaded to youtube (this doesn't stop other channels from uploading ten minute loops of the songs, but whatever).

 I think it's more likely that people will come across Touhou music not through illegally uploaded songs, but through PVs- Promotional videos (another way for doujin circles to promote their music, though obviously not all circles have the resources or artists to make them). These are also music samplings- for example, Bad Apple and misc. IOSYS flashes don't use the full song for the video. Again, not every circle can do this, but it's another example of legal samplings of doujin music.

This stuff also applies to other fanworks too- like fanart, doujinshis etc. It's becoming more common for people to ask permission to post fanart (on tumblr, at least). I still think the best solution is just to follow artists on pixiv and their homepages and support them directly, rather than go through secondary sources, but...

[Tsuken Yasashi]

Eh, I'll join in, because why not?

I like the music this youtuber brings in anyways  :derp:

[N-Forza]

because why not?

Maybe you should re-read the thread.

[Abraham Lincoln]

So is Kappashiro ever going to come back or not...?  :ohdear: