Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Zarakava on August 29, 2013, 07:15:28 PM
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Well, I'm a decent player, I can 1cc all but UFO and SA on Normal, and I'd like to think I'm decent at games.
I got my room mate into Touhou, and he's been working on PCB on Easy (I personally thought PCB easiest, that or IN)
He can't do it. He's been working on it for about 3 weeks, and says he tries about 4-5 games a day. Do you think that SHMUPS are just impossible for some people? He's good at other games, but Idunno.
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This question is impossible to answer. Barring something obvious - like a physical or mental disability - there could be thousands of reasons why some people are better than others at shmups.
Furthermore, not everyone learns things at the same speed. Some people 1cc on the first go; others take months or longer.
All I can recommend is that he not only keep practicing, but also watch replays of successful runs, and save replays of his failures for further study.
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The games of the STG genre are probably impossible for you if you're not going to put in some serious effort. 5 to 6 credits a day isn't quite dedicated.
The more you play, the better you get at these games.
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Amount of practice does come into play, but it's how a player uses those hours to practice that can speed up or slow down improvement. Although 4 or 5 credits a day might help solidify the early stages, they are still easy. If those credits are all going downhill on the second half of the game, it would have been better to practice the later stages for 4~5 credits' worth of time.
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Amount of practice does come into play, but it's how a player uses those hours to practice that can speed up or slow down improvement. Although 4 or 5 credits a day might help solidify the early stages, they are still easy. If those credits are all going downhill on the second half of the game, it would have been better to practice the later stages for 4~5 credits' worth of time.
Yup. Shmups have elements of pure time investment grinding in them if you want to get good, but a large amount of the skill involved is in learning how to learn and develop a sense of when you're in danger and when you've messed up. This only comes from being very attentive while you play.
If you start out, you may also improve very slowly because the mass of crap on the entire screen is so overwhelming that you can't process it, and you end up moving a lot more than you need to. Attentive focus on the basic principles (memorization using replays, streaming, looking for gaps, using the whole screen rather than gluing yourself to the bottom) will see you through this even though it appears to be insurmountable.
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In my mind, everyone can get 'good'/proficient at shmups (unless, like Tengu said, they have some clear mental or physical disability).
Much like any other genre of game, hobby or skill, if you want to get good at it and you put the proper time and effort into it, you shall become better at it.
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I think STG mindset is a very special one, and one you must "get" into to have any progress. You won't do that by just giving the games any number of runs a day, it's not something that is guaranteed to come if you try playing aimlessly, unlike some other genres.
To clear up a bit, myself as example. Before I took an interest in Touhou, I did play STGs casually on occasion. Even when I had long sessions with multiple runs in a row, there was no sign of progress in sight. That's because my aim was to just enter there and shoot things. My tactics were no more than "bomb till out of bombs, stay still and hope to not get hit afterwards". I had no idea there was any other way to play, and I didn't need one. But then, it just... came. A craving for seeing many bullets fired at you, and dodging them all. It came when I mastered a certain FPS, and it wasn't your generic "interactive shooting range" or "hide behind corners to not die" stuff like CoD - it was the legendary Doom II. You know, the one where there are mostly fireballs thrown at you? I've learned to dodge them like a pro. And wished to do some more impressive dodging. So, you see, if it wasn't for that, I'd still be just throwing bombs and watching fancy effects no matter how many runs in any STGs I'd do. (And know what? Turns out being a master of a hardcore FPS just barely prepared me for challenge that is Touhou on Easy.)
So, what I'm saying is no, not everyone can pick up the genre and start getting better at it. Things you should pay attention to, skills you should work on - they aren't readily obvious, you can't just pick them up as you go, unlike with most other genres. Even if you'd try to explain stuff to someone who has no idea what to do, you might just end up confusing them with things that are alien to their gaming perception (like hitbox shenanigans, that's one huge jump, I tell ya). It's not like they're mentally incapable of that, maybe it's not like they don't want to understand even. It's just that picking up some ideas and adopting certain ways of thinking may be too hard for those who've never thought in those dimensions.
However, that's not to say that one can tell who can and who can't take up the genre. STG mindset is a thing that is hard to put into words fully. Basically, it either clicks or not. Maybe it will in future. Maybe it never will. Best way to know is to try. Watching replays and videos also helps. Learning to recognize patterns is a good sign. Sometimes you just need some time after first exposure to get used too. However, if someone just doesn't want to adopt that mindset, there's no helping it. No amount of effort can do a thing without just the right kind of motivation.
Hope this all wasn't so confusing.
(Also, PCB must be the HARDEST game on Easy - it still gives me trouble to this day. IN is way better for a start. Actually, IN Easy 1cc requires the least effort to accomplish, from my experience.)
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Oh really... hardest on Easy? I thought it was easiest out of the ones I played, but I never really did easy.
I'll see if I can get him on IN then
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Oh really... hardest on Easy? I thought it was easiest out of the ones I played, but I never really did easy.
I'll see if I can get him on IN then
Bear in mind that as uh recent events have shown, "hardest" and "easiest" are entirely subjective. YMMV.
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I thought it was easiest out of the ones I played, but I never really did easy.
Well, difficulty distribution within each game is different. Meaning if you find two about equal on Normal, one might be trivial on Easy and brutal on Lunatic (IN), while the other might be closer to some Normals on Easy but milder than most on Lunatic (PCB). That's another reason why you can't really rank games by "general difficulty".
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Like any other skill, you can get very good at Touhou with enough time dedicated to it.
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Why not? I've seen plenty of cases where underachieving students, faced with an imminent lack of promotion, were suddenly able to get excellent grades once they put enough effort into learning the curriculum under individual guidance. Likewise, there are cases of sportspeople able to compete on a very high level through ambition and effort, despite their relative lack of talent or physical predispositions. Are SHMUPS a special case? Ultimately it's all a mixture of reflexes, memorization and knowledge of the game's mechanics, all of which can be developed through hard work and determination, at least to some extent. Speaking from experience, it really helps if you find yourself a mentor - an already experienced player willing to share useful advice and help you defeat various major obstacles.
As for PCB Easy, I agree with CyberAngel. I personally think that things like Prismrivers' last two spells, Youmu's nonspells and last spell, or especially Yuyuko's penultimate spell, are all almost guaranteed to be bloody murder for a novice player, even on Easy. Then there's the torturous Stage 4 likely to consume some resources before you memorize it all, and the somewhat weak bombs... Not exactly friendly for newcomers if you ask me.
A bit off topic, I'm incredibly happy to see Doom mentioned around here! Doom and Touhou do share some similarities. Dealing with all the Cacodemons, Revenants and Mancubi actually teaches you rudimentary dodging, streaming and misdirecting. And just compare the way you dodge a Cyberdemon's rockets at close range with Cirno's shotgun nonspell. Other than that, there's the struggle for optimization present in both communities. There's plenty of Doom speedrunning categories for every map and world records are often a matter of single seconds.
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Does 5 - 6 tries per day mean 5 - 6 credits per day, or 5 - 6 occasions when he sits down and practices until he quits? Some have said that's not enough, but after a certain time of practicing and failing, players begin to experience frustration and playing with frustration is only going to worsen their performance. At these games one has to know when to quit, otherwise their way to that desired 1cc is going to be a very thorny one. Talent matters, yes. Some people have a natural knack for shmups, but even they had to grind to get where they are now. You can't force someone to get better at something. They have to want it themselves. Motivation is not always easy to maintain and I don't know the recipe to keep myself motivated, so I can't share any advice on that.
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The way you practice is hugely important. A "press X until out of bombs" and "pray" attitude probably won't get you very far. You have to actively try and figure out - how can I dodge this wave of enemies? is there a way to make that part easier? how can I 1 bomb through this nonspell or spell with lots of life? how reliable am I really at this part of the stage - should I always bomb it in a 1cc? All those little improvements that make you better. It's like slicing down small creeps one by one until you are good enough to 1cc. Replays help you and when you just can't seem to see the way to do the specific portions - other people's replays help a lot.
I also played hard and lunatic from day 1. A routine could go like: figure out how to do stuff on normal, try the exact same strategy on hard, and try it on lunatic, and then do a full run in lunatic to unlock more stages (it took a long time to 3cc EoSD lunatic - and that happened before normal 1cc). Once I get good enough to potentially 1cc, I started seriously planning on resource management and focusing on normal mode (i.e. spending a lot of time in stage practice trying to get the strategy down).
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If you mean "good" as "1cc most Normal modes", then definitely. Even if you mean 1ccing Lunatics, I'd still be inclined to say yes. It took me quite a while (a year?) to start 1ccing Normal modes, and it was about a year and a half later before I started making progress with Lunatics. Then in a matter of a week and a half I 1cc'd EoSD, PCB and IN. There are some people that have the proper intuition, senses and coordination to deal with danmaku from whatever other things they do and they just end up clearing really fast, but I think pretty much anyone, given enough time and effort, can clear even Lunatics.
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Pretty much everyone can get good at danmaku if they put a lot of time and effort into learning the game.
It's really like anything else, some people will be naturally better, but natural skill only goes so far and lots of practice would be far more important. And making sure your technique is good (in this case by watching vids of others play) to make sure your practice is worthwhile.
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Most of what I might say here has already been said several times. I'll summarize it by saying what matters most is how devoted you are.
There are very few people in the world that, with enough time, would not be able to clear Touhou games on Lunatic, if not even higher accomplishments. But there are also relatively few (maybe not here at HME, but compared to the number of people who play the games in the first place) who are willing to commit that sort of effort.
Speaking from experience, it really helps if you find yourself a mentor - an already experienced player willing to share useful advice and help you defeat various major obstacles.
I'd also like to quote this (and not because I'm pretty sure I'm the mentor mentioned here, though I do appreciate the thanks). I had a few people who I could ask questions back in 2010 when I was learning, and it definitely helped. Places like the spell card help thread are useful too.
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I would say yes, pretty much anyone probably has the potential to clear pretty much anything in Touhou. It's just a matter of how long it takes them to do it. I don't have any of the inherent skills that help with shoot 'em ups, so it takes me a lot more practice to do things than it takes some people who might have those skills. I feel like if I spent an unreasonable amount of time playing I could probably do harder stuff. I have yet to see anything that I think would be physically or mentally impossible for me. I just don't have anywhere near that amount of free time.
It's also worth noting that there's no reason your friend should be 1CCing anyone yet. It took me months to get my first clear on easy (and it was PCB, although in retrospect it may be the hardest in the series for me on easy). I take this series very, very slowly (I haven't played in three weeks, yet I consider myself to be "actively playing" right now :derp:) and I don't feel like it's hurt my enjoyment any. Hell, I think I like it more the slower and easier I play. So while I would bet anyone can get good, getting good, even on a modest scale, can be more of a long-term project.
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That really depends on one's preferences and situations.
I'm more inclined toward people are capable to be good at shmups in general with "I want to know about this game more/I want to beat this game so bad" feeling, practices, and more practices. However, it still needs to be put into consideration that we all have different learning capabilities as some require more time than the others and vice versa. Determination also plays an important role here.
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I think it's pretty self-evident that if you aren't motivated to do well you aren't being considered in the question. If you aren't motivated you'll probably stop within the week or whatever.
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So is there a way to get and stay motivated? For me the only thing that gives me the motivation, or to be politically correct - stimulation to keep playing and trying is the feeling from having accomplished something, like a successful run, but my successful runs are too few and far between, so I don't get that driving impulse very often. Seeing other people doing much better sometimes has the opposite effect as intended - it discourages me from trying.
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So is there a way to get and stay motivated? For me the only thing that gives me the motivation, or to be politically correct - stimulation to keep playing and trying is the feeling from having accomplished something, like a successful run, but my successful runs are too few and far between, so I don't get that driving impulse very often. Seeing other people doing much better sometimes has the opposite effect as intended - it discourages me from trying.
Hi, Easy/Normal Mode player here. I'm also a really slow learner. Naturally what motivates will differ from one person to the next, so of course I'm just speaking for myself here.
What motivates me are the "mini-victories". Like, going into Practice Start or Spell Practice (if available) and concentrating on just one stage, or even just one card. I make this my goal, like, "I'm going to capture that freaky little dwarf's last card" and then I'll have at it. Granted, it may be the time I've spent on the photog games that gives me the patience to practice a spell card over and over, but it takes a lot less patience than, say, having to start allllll over again at Stage 1 and re-attempt an entire run.
With enough of these mini-victories, it puts more wind in my sails, giving me more encouragement with each accomplishment.
I don't even necessarily do practice before a run attempt, either. I often go back and forth between them. Maybe I'll attempt a run, fail, and then decide to open a practice mode just to give myself some encouragement. Yeah, failing a run is a bit undermining, so succeeding in capturing a spell card or clearing a stage in practice tends to give me the boost I need. Plus practice is fun, so it's a nice diversion when I'm not in the mood to tackle all six stages.
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I think pretty much anyone, given enough time and effort, can clear even Lunatics.
Normal mode Reisen was too difficult for me once. Tell your mate to keep playing.
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wait, your friend is good at gaming but is that poor at touhou so far?
I personally have never seen anybody be relatively good at gaming who would have that much trouble with shmups.
But to answer the original question, yeah, I think some people are just beyond all hope of getting "good" at certain games (from gaming prowess rather than that specific game however, hence my confusion). My brother for example is pretty awful at gaming, though he enjoys it, and I too enjoy playing with him at times. But I don't really think I've seen him do well on any game at all! I don't mean to bash him though, I think it takes a great amount of strength of character to enjoy something no matter how bad you are at it (<--- bowling.. love it...suck at it).
As for tengu, I admit I'm surprised that you label yourself as an easy/normal touhouer after all this time after you were rather passionate about how disappointingly Easy eXceed black package was, even on hard and...and... umm. insane? I forget, the 4th difficulty was for you.
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Well, let's not forget eXceed has that auto-slowdown thing going on.
Also, I like Easy/Normal. It's fun. Not everyone aspires to Lunatic. But, never say never...
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Anyone can bomb their way through lunatics to make up for a lack of skill even if some people have to put in more effort. I'm not 100% sure anyone could learn to be a high level player, though. I want to believe that it is possible for virtually anyone if they are determined enough, at the end of the day, all good players had to work their way up there.
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wait, your friend is good at gaming but is that poor at touhou so far?
I personally have never seen anybody be relatively good at gaming who would have that much trouble with shmups.
Is it just that rare in your place? I have a lot of friends, roughly 80% of people that I can consider buddies here, who couldn't defeat Rumia without at least spending 2 lives in either Easy or Normal difficulty. Compared to myself, they are more like what you would consider 'avid gamers', but they still didn't do well in Touhou regardless of the label.
I think it takes a great amount of strength of character to enjoy something no matter how bad you are at it.
That's pretty well said. Having things to enjoy is essential to keep yourself playing again and again.
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So is there a way to get and stay motivated? For me the only thing that gives me the motivation, or to be politically correct - stimulation to keep playing and trying is the feeling from having accomplished something, like a successful run, but my successful runs are too few and far between, so I don't get that driving impulse very often. Seeing other people doing much better sometimes has the opposite effect as intended - it discourages me from trying.
Best motivation is to just enjoy the process of playing. Sounds obvious, but it's very important in this case. Do you have a boss you like fighting? A certain attack you enjoy dodging? Or maybe a whole game you'd play without worrying about a thing? If playing becomes a chore, the process of learning and getting better grinds to a halt. Achievements are nice milestones, but this genre isn't one where you can cover a gap in skill with some abstract "effort". You may keep trying until you get lucky, but what's the point in an achievement if you didn't rely on your skills?
So, the best motivation is to like the genre. If you play to satisfy your lust for bullet hell, no run will be wasted for you. If you enjoy learning patterns, getting better will come naturally. However, if you start needing additional motivation, you might need to make a pause rather than push onward. Even the best thing in the world can tire out. There's also the thing that if you never enjoyed playing just for the sake of playing, maybe this genre isn't for you. Not everyone is good in everything, no need to force yourself if you don't really like something.
Also, (inspired by what Tengu said,) you need the RIGHT kind of motivation. Declaring "I'll get that 1cc today" out of the blue won't magically help you do so. Deciding "okay, I'm tired with that boss eating so many lives each time, Stage Practice grind time" is a much better aim. One that may still take some time, but more effective in bringing a more general goal closer. If you can get enough motivation like that, you'll gain enough skill and confidence for that goal.
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wait, your friend is good at gaming but is that poor at touhou so far?
I personally have never seen anybody be relatively good at gaming who would have that much trouble with shmups.
Is it really that unusual? It took me 4 months to clear a Touhou game on Normal, and I was already quite good at difficult games in a few genres, like platformers.
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Best motivation is to just enjoy the process of playing.
Yeah, definitely. I think anybody can get good at the games if they have the drive, put in enough time, and have fun in the process.
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For myself, learning how to play Touhou and the frustration that so often comes with it was lessened because I was having a blast doing it. Hours would go by and I didn't realize it more often than not because I was too busy talking about how much I like dodging Futo's second card, or how silly Youmu's stage six midboss attack was in that it had the slowdown effect but didn't actually slow down the card. How you approach the games and what you take out of it for all those hours you put in are completely up to you of course, but the most important thing of all is to want to take something away from your time spent. If you feel like you're not getting anything out of your practice and that the only thing that matters is the goal, especially when you first start playing could be a big wall in front of your improvement. Anyone who can get around that mindset could easily improve and "get good".
Then again, my experience is limited to about a year of STGs.
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I like to think all you really need is a genuine willingness to learn. Just playing probably doesn't help if you aren't even expecting to get better. For me, seeing progress in my skills, even really minor, was a great motivator to keep playing and keep improving at it.
I also think that being around better players helps a lot. "If that guy can do it, why couldn't I?" It really helps to know that your goals aren't in any way unreasonable and that several other people have already achieved them.