Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F

[Nyxnyx]

So, I tried doing a new game + run using the all characters (plus disk included) save here on this forum, and I deleted my old save. Fml. But, I am using this opportunity to use new characters I didn't use. Before, like Byakuren, Sakuya, Mari and Renko. And some of my favorites of the new cast, Shou (obviously), Kokoro and Koishi, Futo and Miko. And I am going to do a synergy run, which means everyone but my tank, Tenshi and Yuyuko have synergies. But mabye Yuyu and Iku could swap out sometimes.

3 of your characters have synergy with Byakuren though lol, with Shou the most important one. It's going to be a bit hard to use her since those synergy are more or less what makes Shou good, free regen every turn with along with buffs from Byakuren's passive. But at least you can put Rinnosuke as a tank for damage boost easily.

 Now that you use Koishi, give earth spirit party a spin! :] They start out slowly but later they're as good as any top-tier damage dealer.

[RegalStar]

What would be a good subclass for Koishi? Monk is probably the best for main game (usual benefits plus +12 EVA) but come postgame there are a lot more choices (and Monk's speed up aspects don't synergize with Super Responsive Senses that well). Ninja (mainly for the +20 EVA, though 1/8 defense ignore can be cool too) and Archmage (long delay spells to capitalize on Super Responsive Senses) are probably good choices, and there are likely other good candidates too...

[Nyxnyx]

Hey Regalstar, how did you manage to play a new game+ with plus characters on it? I wanna give it a shot too!

As for Koishi (best touhou) I personally use archmage for higher base magic and 2 more elements to work with. But after using her with almost waifu grade enhancements she's definitely a gimmick character. Decent stats with average spells to work with along with passives that wants you to evade things. Maybe she's kinda safe since high evasion and all but IMO she definitely lacks that power to level down bosses. Her passives are all defensive so that's not surpricing but I've seen many more stay in attackers who packs much more punch and much more survivable, one with same elements *cough* Okuu *cough*. So yeah right now her job is just being there to empower her pets.

[Broken_luck]

This is probably already asked and answered already and pardon me in advance, but how's the translation coming along for +?

[Serela]

Maybe she's kinda safe since high evasion and all but IMO she definitely lacks that power to level down bosses. Her passives are all defensive so that's not surpricing but I've seen many more stay in attackers who packs much more punch and much more survivable, one with same elements *cough* Okuu *cough*. So yeah right now her job is just being there to empower her pets.

Yeahh, whilst Koishi gets evasion boosts, now that I think about it, she doesn't have any direct damage increasing passives, nor particularly high MAG or an especially exciting attack. That probably makes her a little unexciting unless you can really capitilize on her extra turns from evasion (so, luck based) or run earth spirits party for big stat boosts (which honestly, they all sort of need) Hrm. A little unfortunate. Her awakening at least lets her get -double- turns after evasion two thirds of the time, which is a pretty big damage up against any boss you can evade enough. (Time for a bunch of EVA equipment and evasion second boost?)

I guess this shouldn't be super surprising. Almost every passive she has either benefits on a successful evasion, or increases her EVA until she does evade. She has the very elusive ability to obtain a direct evasion buff, meaning even non-major eva increases can add up. It just adds up that her priority is increasing base EVA to try to capitalize on her skillset (whilst keeping other stats high enough to do good damage and not die too easily... greedy koishi)

As for subclasses, ArchMage is probably the best bet, yeah. It gives her quite the elemental variety and attempting to use stronger long-delay spells synergizes well, with a good MAG increase. Murakamo can give her an explosive spell in Heavenly Demise if SPI works for what you've got in mind, as usual, but it's a one-person and one-element class, etc- it's basically ArchMage with a different attack spell (much stronger instead of 2 elements) and some goofy passives, though, which is good. Ninja isn't entirely a bad idea, if you don't need extra skills in her moveset at the time... more EVA is more offense to add ontop of it's other minor boosts... I called it a garbage class, but Koishi is an unusual character and might get use out of it.

I wonder how the game treats heavy evasion on player characters? Koishi, Alice, Chen, and Aya can totally get 200+. Alice/Aya/Chen can get ~140 before equipment, even, after second boost (20 eva per boost tier, tright?) and Koishi only reaches ~90 but after equipment and her passives she beats them out. And anyone with maintenance can do the same, although they probably shouldn't in most situations.

Also RIP LazerPagoda's save. When I started a second run, I made sure to make multiple save files of my first run so I couldn't accidentally overwrite it. >.>

[Nyxnyx]

Hey guys, am I missing something? I trying to play with the plus disk characters from the beginning but going new game+ does not give me those characters. How to play with those?

Help!

[Kirin no Sora]

Hey guys, am I missing something? I trying to play with the plus disk characters from the beginning but going new game+ does not give me those characters. How to play with those?

Help!

It hasn't been set up to do that yet, I think...

[Nyxnyx]

It hasn't been set up to do that yet, I think...

There's a couple of posts that says they're doing a plus disk chars run. Maybe they're using something? I dunno lol But yeah.

[Serela]

There's a post somewhere earlier in the thread that hacked a NG+ save with the plus disk characters

[Nyxnyx]

There's a post somewhere earlier in the thread that hacked a NG+ save with the plus disk characters

Ah I've found it! Thanks a bunch! It's on page 9 by Validon98

[RegalStar]

Alice/Aya/Chen can get ~140 before equipment, even, after second boost (20 eva per boost tier, tright?)

Unfortunately, only HP, TP, MP and the core stats have second/mega boosts. Accuracy, Evasion, Elemental Resistance and Ailment Resistance only have base level boosts (and high boosts for Rinnosuke).

[Serela]

RIP

Oh well, that's only ~20 eva points, not a big loss. (And eventually the third boost, but... the costs are real) I don't have to worry about giving everyone double element boost at least XD Also helps Rinno keep his edge there even in mega endgame.

[LazorPagoda]

Yeah, so far the game is doing great, Shou and Futo are plowing trough the 1st floor enemies, and the Malignut Eater was Instant Deathed by Yuyu. I was mainly going for the Myoren family team (minus Naz), Moriya Family (minus Suwa) and Taoist, Celestial (Yuyuko is probably gonna be replaced by Iku when she is relevant), and Sealing Club teams. Mabye I will use Team Komieji and co, but there are alot of people I don't wanna kick out. The reason Suwa and Naz arnt being used is because Mag build Suwako carried my old team through the fire and dark stratum, as well as a bit of the 19 and 20th floor. Naz is rendered pointless by Shou's all target.

[Serela]

Nazrin's actually not half bad. A lot of the hard bosses in maingame are weak to her slayer skill, and while her moves are plain, two of her damage formulas actually are really nice. She's still a little average until you can grab her corridor skills, though, and those are irrelevant in NG+ runs. At least Sorc can give her an AoE (along with a fourth good attack element).

...as for being rendered pointless by Shou's alltarget, Naz's skills give -way- bigger bonuses and are much stronger, with a much better passive. +25% rate or +100%? Shou's bulkier, but slower. For a NG+ Shou's probably overall better for the bulk, though, as Nazrin can't reach her corridor awakening for skills that give her above-average damage capability.

...actually, errr, Shou's 1 mp recovery is probably pretty painful until she can hog your mp recovery main equip...

[DarkAtma]

Seems like i will have to wait until 2018-2019 for the translated menus,i cant efficiently play without knowing floor numbers,items,new skills,descriptions etc etc

i guess i will replay LoT1 on the meanwhile  :V

[RegalStar]

Seems like i will have to wait until 2018-2019 for the translated menus,i cant efficiently play without knowing floor numbers,items,new skills,descriptions etc etc

i guess i will replay LoT1 on the meanwhile  :V

Translation will probably start in earnest after, at the very minimum, the entire plus disk content is actually released. We're still missing quite a bit of content right now.

[DarkAtma]

Translation will probably start in earnest after, at the very minimum, the entire plus disk content is actually released. We're still missing quite a bit of content right now.

Spoiler:

i watched all of your +disk videos and didnt saw the serpent of chaos battle sprite that is on the files, yet at the same time i couldnt find the hollow yamata no orochi sprite, thats weird

Spoiler:

[RegalStar]

Serpent of Chaos is the 100F boss in endless corridor.

[RegalStar]

Fun thing about elementalist: At level 5, all of their elemental buffs have 8000 postuse (it's 5500+500*SLv), and they cost only 3 MP. This can be interesting for a lot of characters with "when the user receives a turn" skills.

[Serela]

That does make the class look less terrible, for sure, if nothing else. When you've got so many powerful subs to put on your support characters, whether for more options or synergy gaming or great passives or just to make them bulkier... "+10% damage" buffs seemed kinda underwhelming. If it's even faster than ninja's Fast Movement though, yeah, it could be possibly useful for characters who want turns.

[LazorPagoda]

Yeah, Shou doesn't give the same drop bonuses, but that was only half the reason. All of her elements are covered one or more times by the rest of the party, so she'd jus be the underused mage. Kokoro I super good, as she is just plowing through most enemies in one blow, and her multi element attack should be really good because most hard bosses are weak to those elements. Iku, Yukari, That Mirror thing, Sakuya are all difficult bosses, but Sakuya was easy with a buffed up Kanako 3 shotting her with VoWG and finising off Remi with one of her deceptively strong spirit nukes.


One of the few problems I am having is that most of my party has REALLY expensive spells, so there is alot of part management during exploration. Shou's 1 mo recover isnt all that bad considering she isn't going to be my main sweeper. My main Kill All Things Now button is actually Kokoro and Koishi, with their high overall damage to the floor enemies. Koishi hits a few weaknesses, Kokoro us just brute attack power.

[RegalStar]

It turns out that despite being unreleased (and having no animation), Dragon God and WINNER's spells are all functional. So here are the data I gleaned off them:

Dragon God: HP+12, MP+8, TP+8, All elements+64 (wtf), All status+20
Four Elements Protection: FIR/CLD/WND/NTR affinity+3 per level (max level 20)
Dragon Breath: 12MP, All Enemies, FIR+CLD+WND+NTR composite, 250(ATK+MAG)-40(DEF+MND), 2400 postuse

WINNER: All stats+6 (not including TP or MP), All elements+24, All ailments+8
Autoroller: All stats+1 per level (max level 10; same for the two below)
Elemental Immunity: All Elements+4 per level
Magic Armor: All Ailments+2 per level
Vorpal Blade: 7MP, Enemy Row, WND direct, ~237-77, 4500 postuse
Magical Tempest: 12MP, All Enemies, VOI magic (though it's actually MYS right now), 280-100, 600 postuse
Sword of Light: 8MP, One Enemy, SPI composite magic, ~195(ATK+MAG)-33(MND), 5750 postuse
Wand of Destruction: 16MP, All Enemies, DRK compoiste direct, ~192(ATK+MAG)-120(DEF), inflicts every status except debuffs (fairly reliably too from what I observed), 2400 postuse

[Serela]

About as expected (except dragon god gives CRAZY element affinity bonuses- plus 124 on the 4 natural ones?!), and Dragon Breath is indeed a move worthy of it's placement. It's strong enough to even sort of consider it for an attacker, but it's such a good class for a big tanker, too...

And Winner gives you a fabulous set of attacks as expected. Best for someone with both offense stats, but really, anyone can use it (Remilia...), and it's good elemental variety in types you can't get from other subs well, mostly.

[RegalStar]

I'm actually not really impressed with Vorpal Blade and Magical Tempest. They're decent at all but not really worth their MP price tags. The composite spells look a lot better though, so I'd think WINNER is more suitable for characters like Yuuka with high stats on both offenses.

Dragon's Breath is really powerful yeah (four elements means that it will hit weakness pretty much all the time, and will not get resisted by almost anything), but 2400 postuse kind of clashes with its passives. I guess it's like Ame-no-Murakumo where it's meant to be usable in different ways, instead of being a self-coherent skillset.

[Nyxnyx]

So some composite spells actually takes both def and mnd into account? Or is the dragon breath the only composite that includes both defenses in Lot2? Since I've never seen anyone's spell include both defenses on the characters' pages.

[Serela]

It's the only one. Out of spells you can cast yourself, at least.

Edit:Hmm, JP wiki suggests running Kokoro as an HP tank subbed Healer. This allows you to use her "healing skills buff from emotion" (and is probably a dev intended build considering this is nearly the only way to use that...), and you get not 10, but 14% HP regen for only 85% delay when concentrating- and 4% healing on the party which, whilst low, is a nice on-the-side with that kind of delay. It cycles emotions heavily but tbh a tank kokoro doesn't care too much, the up/down isn't -that- large on others and if she's not attacking she doesn't need to stick to one all that much. She can still benefit from getting up Fighting Spirit for 30% damage reduction so she can actually compete as an HP tank, for support she's still got "debuff with emotion" along with healer skills, and the emotion buffs are for... well, RegalStar said it's 16% (or 20% speed) which kind of makes this build depressing, sigh.

Sadly, she doesn't bring a whole lot to the table other than good survivability in such a build- and it requires awakening her anyway to -get- that- hp regen. If the emotion healing buffs were worth a damn, maybe it'd have been nice; or if the emotion stat increases were better than like 8~10%. As an attacker, she doesn't really compete with the juggernauts or anything, but she's at least got enough good stuff to be certainly good enough to use if you like her? :T Kind of a let down for a character with cool gimmick stuff. Oh well. Like, at least Koishi can get strong if you exploit earth spirits synergy, and Shou similarly via her own synergies and rage counter? Kokoro doesn't really seem to have a "thing".

Then again, if she works better in practice than Komachi (more turns for regen, and fighting spirit, instead of higher max hp), well, all the fans of Komachi tank have a second option, so I guess that's something; Komachi tank brings little to the table other than surviving either, not that I've used that build. Avici is pretty alright and tank-Komachi can still DTH in randoms, so it's definitely not like she doesn't do anything, but.

Well, fourth option, because Awakened Minoriko is a thing (although I'm not sure she could main tank other than mag bosses, but she's got great support and beastly hp/mp flow instead) and Mokou has regen+fighting spirit and Resurrection for hp tanking. Since she didn't even have a damage reduction from Fighting Spirit back when I used her, she'd sure do a lot better now >_>
edit:Wow, I only just realized Mokou's regen is 20% instead of 10% like everyone else (barring awakening minoriko) gets. Now that fighting spirit works, hmm. Actually, if you run Keine tank for her new passive and awesome awakening swap power, Mokou+Keine frontline sounds really nice for the def/mnd bonus. (Or for running a hybrid keine with offense, since she can get high MAG now, but it's definitely a gimmick build. New powerful subclasses could make it an effective gimmick build, though)

edit again:I just realized Mokou gets Sheer Force in awakening. Sheer Force... on an actual great tank character. Pierce power on Iwakasa Curse debuffs! This is starting to sound nice. Maybe sub toxicologist if you don't want to use her great mp regen on pharmacologist or healer. That's actually a pretty nice sounding idea as toxicologist skills are accurate, combined with Sheer Force... ooh, and any remotely shk-vulnerable boss would really go down to Guardian's Shield Bash, which has a very high SHK rate, actually really good once you have someone who's better than Kogasa or Utsuho for casting it with as support. Mokou's starting to sound like resurrection isn't the only gimmick she's got.

Taking advantage of bosses that aren't too heavily resistant to SHK and PAR... *Drools* Or, you know, just a real high accuracy psn/heavy effect...

[RegalStar]

Yeah Kokoro is a weird thing. Sshe's pretty much just a gimmicky character with OK level attacks (her stats are high but she lacks any sort of straight forward boosting passives) and the ability to affect damage globally... a little anyways. They're not really that unintuitive, but 10% don't really make that much of a difference, and her magic spell kind of sucks badly when she wants to be in sadness mode. She could actually pull of Dragon God decently I think (she gets 8500 postuse for triggering circles, and dragon breath can benefit more from her masks), but... eh.

[Serela]

Huh, Dragon God is a good point. The downside though is she'd have almost nothing useful to do in terms of actual skills, but... she'd mostly be concentrating anyway to dole out buffs and regen, I guess, so that'd do it. A little easier to use than Tokiko and probably more survivable with 14% regen, some fighting spirit up, and a full HP build (to go with those sick affinity boosts from dragon god!), but less options.

With her turn coming up so much and generally being free (she'd only be concentrating...) she'd be an effective swapper in that build, at least, in terms of doing... anything else with her time. If the survival ability is high enough it could be a pretty nice build, actually.

The big question is about whether her survival ability is better enough than other options who can actually do things with their turns other than -just- have an increased dragon god turn rate. (Tokiko and Minoriko are quite fast and boast other support options, you can always just throw it on Byakuren, etc)

[RegalStar]

Cheerfulness mask will lower damage across the board, but with plus it will generally lower the enemies defense more than the party since they have much lower defense (and Kokoro/Miko can reduce the damage penalty to the party anyways), so there's that.

[Serela]

That's true, but useful applications of tank Kokoro also seem like they'll be concentrating so much it'll be hard to make a meaningful use of emotion swap. If only she had an "Emotion Lock" skill? 10% stat change isn't too large, though, in any case... so it's not a huge deal. Oh Kokoro... :T

In other news, I threw up a page and awkward description for Miko on the wiki's 7th character page. After a month and a half I guess it was about time to do another character :V It's somewhat strange to describe characters I haven't -used-... but at least I'm so hopelessly addicted to theorycrafting for this game that I can be confident I'm not COMPLETELY off the mark, or anything.