Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 16F

[Ghaleon]

Kind of a dumb question. But I never touched plus disc for 2 yet, not even the trial. Is it strictly a post game kinda thing, should I start a new game fresh to enjoy it fully (I don't mind losing my progress), I mean I can see floors b1-b5 on the wiki, and the new characters added. but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to progress towards it in any kind of specific way.

[Serela]

It's all postgame, apart from some character tweaks. IIRC you have to beat final boss v2 before it opens up?

[qazmlpok]

It's all postgame, apart from some character tweaks. IIRC you have to beat final boss v2 before it opens up?

Unless it was different in the trial, v2 is not necessary. I never beat him and was able to check out the first floor in the trial.

[Validon98]

AFAIK you just need all 48 main game characters for it, which means you have to do most of the postgame anyhow (at least the 12 Formidable Shadows and the Deformed Bosses to get Renko and Maribel)

[Nyxnyx]

It's been awhile since the last update but yeah, I think the plus disk is really enjoyable since it turns some mediocre characters into different kinds of powerhouses. When everyone is super good, you can think less and, with a peace of mind, pour all that resources into your best girl. Now if only Koishi gets some more damage.....

I think you have to beat the sword 1 time. I could enter the basement before I even fight the boss rush. Of course the mobs 1-2 shot my tanks at that point and I couldn't really go through unless I grind up some more.

[Ghaleon]

Is there a summary of the character rebalances? or is it mostly the new 'awakening' skills they get or whatever they're called? I'm still kinda bitter to what they did to remi. I know she wasn't exactly the most popular character in lot1 but I found her to be an mvp in my party so damn often for my own personal playstyle, and she just kinda... well she just kinda isn't anymore in 2. Particularly with Kasen who not only has more moves, but has one that's pretty much better in every way, plus has better general stats, plus levels faster. She doesn't have majesty but she has another allstat up thing, not that an allstatup thing is needed THAT much on a character like remi who has curse of vlad tepes anyway (which is less good in lot2 since allbuffs are far more common).

I see she got a nuke-all, but that's not what she needs imo (I mean it's what she would have needed in 1, but it's not what she needs to kinda maintain her schtik in 2 that she had in 1).

Basically, in 1, I found that with her buff, she could damage enemies that were the 'most people hit for 0' types like helbelderes or whatever they're called. Yeah sure silent selene did better, as did megawatt cannon , and horai barrage. But it could also do the job long before the 'normal' nukes could. But in 2. it's just a 0 nuke like all the others for those enemies, shame!

[Libra]

 They also included some new non-awakening passives on certain characters, these are all very expensive, but grant some interesting efects or plain stat boosts that helps make some previously weaker characters more viable. Also, some characters can now level their offensive spellcards up to level 7/9, mostly to make them more viable offensively later in the game. All of the changes are already mentioned as such on their respective character sections in the wiki.

 Regarding Remi, post-awakening she does get Piercing Attack which means at the very least 20% of the damage she does will ignore DEF and go through anyway. Vampiric Attack also heals her and increases Spear of the Gungnir's damage.

[Serela]

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but some characters are only really worth using after awakening, like Remilia. Vampiric Attack buffs all her stats and increases damage of single-target attacks apart from the obviously nice HP drain, and Proof of Kinship is a wonderful passive on all family characters. It helps that Sakuya got buffed too, even before her awakening. Her new skill increases her ATK by 1/3 of her current SPD buff; this should stack with ATK buffs so you get even more increase, plus stacking w/family passive, so it's not bad at all, and Meiling is godly, Flan got nerfed with gambler's nerf but her skills also got BUFFED... (Starbow Break now ignores half defense?!)... Patchouli is still the weak link. At least it's easier to get HP gems and make her survivable in plus, even if you don't want to go all the way and give her a first aid kit.

[Battler]

So I've beat the Orochi and the the Giga Orochi on B10F, and all my dudes are around level 450 or so. I've done a quick check around all the floors but I don't see much else left to do - am I missing anything, or am I actually done until 3peso patches in the post-game?

[Otaku]

I'm wondering, should I switch Patchouli out for Flandre as my nuker?

[Serela]

So I've beat the Orochi and the the Giga Orochi on B10F, and all my dudes are around level 450 or so. I've done a quick check around all the floors but I don't see much else left to do - am I missing anything, or am I actually done until 3peso patches in the post-game?

Yeah, all you've really got to do now is get down to 100F (I think?) in the infinite corridor if you haven't. There's several more floors of postgame (and waaay more corridor- the super deep parts are likely the mega endgame) but 3peso still needs to actually patch it in.

I'm wondering, should I switch Patchouli out for Flandre as my nuker?

Patchouli's always looked pretty underwhelming in LoT2, to be honest. The main thing she's got going for her is mp longevity for random fights, but she's so slow that I dunno if she's actually much good for that. Unless you're fielding most of the SDM to bolster her MAG/MND I don't think she's worth using. Flan actually has pretty high damage potential, on the other hand, even without SDM.

[Shadowlupus]

Another thing that makes Patchouli good is that Grand Incantation + personal spell that targets weakness can potentially take out either 1/2 or 1/4 of a boss's HP, which is incredible unless if you have other Game Breakers supercharged with equipments/skills/items of course. I think she still needs Aya for support.

Dunno about her usefulness in Plus Disk tho.

[DarkAtma]

Anybody knows which characters or subclasses provide bonuses from the backrow? thinking of just using 9 members,while the other 3 are passive filler and to use the full party exp bonus

[Serela]

Maribel, Shikieiki, and Miko are the big backrow bonus people. Other than that it's just stuff like drop rate increases. For the most part you have to get to the corridor awakenings for the back row bonuses, though, soooo, mega lategame.

[DarkAtma]

Maribel, Shikieiki, and Miko are the big backrow bonus people. Other than that it's just stuff like drop rate increases. For the most part you have to get to the corridor awakenings for the back row bonuses, though, soooo, mega lategame.

which ones raise drop rate or money from backrow? rinnosuke and?...

[Ghaleon]

I just realized that lot could benefit from a relatively simple mod. One where damage formulas are just placed in the descriptions of the spellcards in-game. Or is that just me? I kinda have a thing where I like transparency in my games.

[elminster1372]

which ones raise drop rate or money from backrow? rinnosuke and?...

Komachi raises money
Nazrin and Nitori (the latter post-awakening only) raise droprate

But frankly, assuming the postgame endless corridor is how I think it is, I don't think droprate will be as important as it would've been in THL1. As for money drop, it would obviously be more important, but only insofar as including certain characters doesn't hamstring your ability to clear corridors.

[LonelyGaruga]

So I just noticed something interesting while doing a quick check on the JP wiki's page that lists various formulas (https://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/177.html), regarding some spell card damage calculation. Apparently, some utilize the user's DEF and MND as part of the damage calculation, added to ATK/MAG. Spell cards that were specified as examples were the Guardian subclass' Shield Bash (DEF) and Minoriko's personal spell cards (MND). I don't recall seeing anything that suggested such a mechanic existed in the EN wiki or the spell card formula dump on the first post, so this was a bit surprising. Decided to test it with Tenshi on the Small Kedama on 1f see what kind of numbers would occur. Had Girl of Bhava-agra and Shield Bash maxed, no modifiers otherwise. Did 5 attacks for each test, not exactly thorough but enough to see some variance.

Max ATK, 10179 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 25779-30628
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (80% buff): 29143-33190
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (80% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 43926-51376
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (80% buff) + 6534 DEF (80% buff): 47853-53726

Max DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 11682 DEF (0% buff): 18918-21621
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 11682 DEF (80% buff): 24409-28004
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (80% buff) + 11682 DEF (0% buff): 31554-33318
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (80% buff) + 11682 DEF (80% buff): 37170-40083

No ATK/DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 14714-17019

Probably sufficient evidence to confirm that DEF affects Shield Bash's damage, but I'm not really keen enough to figure out how exactly it does that. It doesn't seem especially important based on how much the damage increases, but it'd be nice to know the exact formula if that's possible. There might be other spell cards that are bolstered by defensive stats too.

Was this something that was already known? Might just be late on this lol

Unrelated, but what I was checking that page for (and couldn't find) was something like a formula for calculating hit rate. Is that something available?

[Myosotis]

Nice find, all I can tell from doing a quick test is that this works in the base game as well as the plus disc and it seems at least in shield bashs case it only applies starting at spell level 2. I dont know if the def influence rises with even higher skill levels and now I'm too lazy to test it too, sorry.
I understand nothing on the japanese wiki, let me ask you or anyone else, did you find any other spells that have def/mnd influence, or was it just those two?
(I haven't seen anything about a hit rate formula)

[Serela]

That was definitely not known... interesting. Perhaps offensive Minoriko is more passable than I thought? Well, she's still probably more suited to supporting, but.

[LonelyGaruga]

Nice find, all I can tell from doing a quick test is that this works in the base game as well as the plus disc and it seems at least in shield bashs case it only applies starting at spell level 2. I dont know if the def influence rises with even higher skill levels and now I'm too lazy to test it too, sorry.
I understand nothing on the japanese wiki, let me ask you or anyone else, did you find any other spells that have def/mnd influence, or was it just those two?
(I haven't seen anything about a hit rate formula)

Oh yeah sorry, the description of Shield Bash on the JP wiki's subclass page actually specifies that it applies DEF to the formula at level 2+. Nothing was specified about Minoriko's spell cards beyond that they use MND though, no leveling mentioned or anything. The page only mentions Shield Bash and Minoriko's spell cards, and from the wording, it may be that (at least in the base game) those are the only spell cards that are affected by the user's defensive stats. It's really not thorough though.

The wording on the page reads something like

"For some spells, the DEF and MND of the user is added to the damage.
(DEF is Guardian's Shield Bash, MND is all of Minoriko's personal spells)"

Mostly, it's just knowing that this is a thing at all.

EDIT: Ohhh, I see now

Shield Bash
-------------------------

   MP        : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 4)
   Target    : Single Foe
   Element(s): PHY
   Delay     : 50.00%
   Formula   : 120% ATK - 50% DEF
   Multiplier: 1.20
   00C8      : ((level - 1) * 10)

Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.

[Serela]

Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.

...wait, so at level 5, Autumn Sky would factor in 240% mnd into it's damage? >.> That sounds a bit much. Ah well, time to do testing in game... when I don't feel like taking a nap, at least XD

Since no one probably puts any levels into Minoriko's attack spells, it's certainly something that could have never been noticed...

edit:Welp. I tested. Minoriko did plenty of damage even with next to no magic stat, and once I pumped up both stats... she only did slightly more damage in a MAG build than she did in a MND build. That's... kinda interesting, actually. Of course, her damage still wasn't all that high either way, but.

[LonelyGaruga]

Ah, when I said "same thing" I should have been more specific. It's the "same" variable, but it only says "60" and "72" for those two spell cards, there is no level modifier, sorry for the confusion there.

But yeah, it seems that it's more for ensuring that full DEF/MND builds can deal worthwhile damage. Like with the Tenshi test I did, Shield Bash was doing about 25% less damage with a full DEF build than a full ATK build (and that's with Girl of Bhava-agra active, which favors ATK a lot). I'd imagine the gap for Minoriko's spell cards is smaller since she factors in a lot more of her MND into the formula, and her MND stat is higher than Tenshi's (or most character's in general) DEF.

And from what I can tell with some test calculations to see if I understand the damage formula correctly, it seems that the DEF/MND stats are added like ATK and MAG are for composite spell cards. So for Minoriko's spell cards, they should look something like

Autumn Sky: (168% MAG + 84% MND) - 70% MND
Warm Color Harvest: (256% MAG + 115.2% MND) - 80% MND

[Serela]

I see, I see. Well, that makes Guardian more relevant of a subclass, since you can get some damage out of tanks that way... if you'd really rather do that than use support moves with them. It also makes Guardian Kogasa a little more relevant for using on SHK-vulnerable bosses; you can build her as a tank and STILL get some damage, while having Sheer Force shk from a high-accuracy shk move.

And makes Minoriko easier to use since you can keep her in a MND build and still get use out of her in random fights... and a little in ntr-weak bosses, maybe. Since she's viable looking after corridor awakening, that's nice for endgame, where you're probably not bothering to swap between mag/mnd builds due to equipment too, etc etc etc.

[Leerius]

Stuck at Futo, can I get some help ? been trying to use Chen and Momiji but Futo heal herself faster than damage dealt.
Any character recommendation ? also I never built a 'bulky attacker' so what's the usual setup, full points in HP transcendant with ATK equipments ?

Edit :
Ah well... I finally beat her, took me around 40min battle duration with Shou Komachi Byakuren Nazrin/Remilia, swap were mostly used for ATB control and buffs... had previously made the mistake of letting Komachi on 1st position which would let Futo recover tons of HP with her draining spell.

However Nazrin have ... absurd amounts of bonuses (for grinding) so I doubt it's a reliable strategy with a decent one...

Lucky I got the 2 drops and TP MAG treasure orbs, would never fight her again.

[Kirin no Sora]

"For some spells, the DEF and MND of the user is added to the damage.
(DEF is Guardian's Shield Bash, MND is all of Minoriko's personal spells)"

Mostly, it's just knowing that this is a thing at all.

EDIT: Ohhh, I see now

Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.

Ah, when I said "same thing" I should have been more specific. It's the "same" variable, but it only says "60" and "72" for those two spell cards, there is no level modifier, sorry for the confusion there.

But yeah, it seems that it's more for ensuring that full DEF/MND builds can deal worthwhile damage. Like with the Tenshi test I did, Shield Bash was doing about 25% less damage with a full DEF build than a full ATK build (and that's with Girl of Bhava-agra active, which favors ATK a lot). I'd imagine the gap for Minoriko's spell cards is smaller since she factors in a lot more of her MND into the formula, and her MND stat is higher than Tenshi's (or most character's in general) DEF.

And from what I can tell with some test calculations to see if I understand the damage formula correctly, it seems that the DEF/MND stats are added like ATK and MAG are for composite spell cards. So for Minoriko's spell cards, they should look something like

Autumn Sky: (168% MAG + 84% MND) - 70% MND
Warm Color Harvest: (256% MAG + 115.2% MND) - 80% MND

I think that I remember that part of Mino's spells from when people were datamining the game. From what I remember, Mino's healing spell also has said composite nature(I think that it said -60 as what it draws, which would make sense if it was a healing spell, as I do remember that healing spells have a negative value in order to heal), meaning that it's actually the strongest single target heal spell in the game due to that nature(which makes sense, given that she had the best single target healing spell in LoT1 as well).

Also, given that she can buff her MND easily, that means that she can easily increase her healing and damage output that way(although the MAG influence on said spells means that MAG is not something that you can ignore if you want her to use said spells effectively). For me, this tells me that her corridor skill of "using one spell and gaining the effects of the other" would become far more potent than I had originally thought, as MND serves as a defensive and offensive stat for her.

[LonelyGaruga]

Oh yeah, Sweet Potato Room does have a -60 for the MND thing. So that makes it a 120% MAG + 60% MND heal. That's pretty neat. Seems a bit odd that this information wasn't added to the EN wiki if it was noticed during datamining, but ah well.

Speaking of datamining, how does that process go about for extracting spell card formulas and enemy AI/stats? Been kinda interested in checking that stuff out for Plus Disc content, but it's not presently available. It's really convenient for planning runs to be able to calculate how much damage is done/taken by particular spell cards without having to figure it out in-game.

[Kirin no Sora]

Oh yeah, Sweet Potato Room does have a -60 for the MND thing. So that makes it a 120% MAG + 60% MND heal. That's pretty neat. Seems a bit odd that this information wasn't added to the EN wiki if it was noticed during datamining, but ah well.

To be fair, no one realized what those numbers on 00CC were for back then.

If it is all right with everyone, I could add this info directly to the wiki now. I just need to confirm that the formulas that are stated here are accurate.

[Leerius]

Is this normal that the "boost" buff from herb of awakening and Maribel's barrier is still in effect for 2 attacks ? I tried with grand incantation but it disappear after 1 attack despite being similar effects.
Never noticed yet, testing back it works in ver1.203, trial rev.C and plus disk 1.103.

Herbalist seems unfair compared to these characters passives.

Edit :

Pharmacologist is a good subclass for tanks with spare turns. Use Herb of Excitement on whoever's about to attack (It lasts for two of their turns for 36% extra damage at max) or use Placebo Effect on people with like 50~70% buffs to keep them high up. Incense Treatment isn't much good- it's highly situational and even then it costs 5 points instead of 3 to level, and is really costly to use until maxed.

Ooh I see I think it should be put in the subclass or bug section, seems like a pretty vital information.

[Serela]

Honestly, that's something I completely forgot about. It kind of makes sense when you think about it, though; the first turn of Grand Incantation is spent applying the buff to yourself. If you have an herbalist Boost themselves, I'm sure it means they only have one turn to use it. (Of course, no offensive character should be an herbalist anyway)

Grand Incantation does still beat it, though. You get 240% damage from two turns (or 240% heal) wheras Herb of Excitement takes 3 turns (the buffer's turn, and two of the attacker's turns) for 272% damage. 240% for two turns, or 276% for three. The fact that people with Grand Incantation honestly -need- the boost to help deal good damage (plus the hassle of needing 2 turns for it as well) whilst Herbalist will hit anyone is a thing, though.