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Thread 1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4187.0.html)
Thread 2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4614.0.html)
Thread 3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5049.0.html)
Thread 4 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.0.html)
Thread 5 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6744.0.html)
Thread 6 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7188.0.html)
Thread 7 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,9136.0.html)
Thread 8 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11564.0.html)
Thread 9 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13990.0.html)
Thread 10 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15170.0.html)
Thread 11 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15431.0.html)
Thread 12 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16042.0.html)
Thread 13 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html)
Thread 14 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17586.0.html)
Thread 15 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.0.html)
Translation Thread (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15439.0.html)
English Wiki
LoT 1 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou)
LoT 2 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2)
MoonJapanese Wiki
LoT 1 (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/)
LoT 2 (http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2)
LoT 1 Patches and other downloads
Ver 2.04 patch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/mzdgl54mxmi/thLabyrinth_ver2.04.zip)
Ver 2.06B patch (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DA1DGQZC) Dead link. HALP.
Ver 3.01 patch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ahccqhixp7d1n9p/thLabyrinth_ver3.01.zip)
English Patch for Ver 3.01 (http://www.mediafire.com/?t1v567p5sced1zl)
Cheat Engine chart (Cheat list ver: 8th June 2010) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.msg356800.html#msg356800)
Cheat table for Special Disc on Win XP (Cheat list ver: 8th June 2010) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6229.msg377088.html#msg377088)
Suggested builds (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,7188.msg589521.html#msg589521)
Offline database (http://www.mediafire.com/download/w5jig4q58hlmy3z/Labyrinth+DataBase.rar)
New Game+ file for version 3.01 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7188.0;attach=15055)
LoT 2, its Patches, and other downloads
The place to go to buy a legitimate copy of the game. (http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000165852) The instructions for how to navigate the site in order to buy it is here. (http://imgur.com/a/qA3Dc)
Start game with all characters (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15431.msg1017162.html#msg1017162)
Ver 1.202 (http://firestorage.jp/download/0584ab67e6fae363810686ef8648a4c7e09e4c0a)
Ver 1.203 (http://firestorage.jp/download/7814f97d45779c2c977b514c0db479fae8e926d8)
Image packs
Squidtentacle's pack (https://www.mediafire.com/?l61o19nxqt82j)
chripy's pack (http://www.mediafire.com/download/pc8dovp81cj8u8z/CharaGraph.rar)
Pandaology's pack (https://www.mediafire.com/?pdk5l7dc8vy9z)
Enemy Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnlnx9stxxybinb/enemy_info%20v2.zip?dl=0)
Contains their Stats, Affinities, Ailment Resistances, EXP, Money, Drops, and Types
Spellcard Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ujydvnmgj466eaq/spellcard_info.zip?dl=0)
4 text files for Characters, Commands, Enemies, and Subclass data in a zip file
Individual files for those who only don't want to download a zip file
Character (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lg29mv3r2b9ahrj/Spellcards_Character.txt?dl=0)
Commands (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5abxf9st849cnw8/Spellcards_Commands.txt?dl=0)
Enemies (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fv8pi1hepbkh3v9/Spellcards_Enemy.txt?dl=0)
Subclasses (https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5g5llnwa34jb53/Spellcards_Subclasses.txt?dl=0)
Passive Skill Info (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jovqyauwx24odf/Labyrinth%20of%20Touhou%202%20Passive%20Skills.txt?dl=0)
Data on all the character's passive skills that affect damage formulas, stats, etc
Enemy AI Dump (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfpfenffpit76yr/lot2_enemy_ai_dump.txt?dl=0)
Developer's site: http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/ (http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/)
Main page : http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2/top.htm (http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2/top.htm)
Ahh... Got to love that new thread smell. Anyways, carry on.
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What do you mean these monsters are level ~110 why do these things have so much defense aaaaarghasdfhqaiwre
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I can't discuss here much because I don't know about the Plus Disk content. Rather see it come out later when it is available...
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What do you mean these monsters are level ~110 why do these things have so much defense aaaaarghasdfhqaiwre
Defense/mind is a massive problem in postgame. You will learn to highly value people who are good at piercing it or have good def/mnd debuffs (especially both at the same time). It's a problem on a lot of boss fights- you simply can't deal any damage worth caring about otherwise.
And there is at least one random enemy that you can't kill without a fully ignoring move or the Piercing Attack skill, iirc.
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Postgame encounters are definitely a pain. Thanks to Kirin and Serela with the Yuyuko/Reisen tip I'd suggest just using them to insta death the mobs. Most postgame mobs should be able to be insta killed, but if they aren't you can always slot in another attack to finish the leftover mobs.
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Kirin, if you are reading this. Would you mind adding the LoT1 update patch to the intro? It is around the middle of the page. I have posted that since the beginning of the previous thread but there was no response.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html
On an unrelated note, woohoo! We are getting close to the 20th floor!
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Kaguya and Eiki are your friends for those high defense enemies. Its easier than relying on Instant Death at least.
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Weeeee new thread hype! :getdown:
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Kirin, if you are reading this. Would you mind adding the LoT1 update patch to the intro? It is around the middle of the page. I have posted that since the beginning of the previous thread but there was no response.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16978.0.html
Whoops! Thank you for the heads up. Give me a moment...
Edit: I had already done this in the previous thread, and since I copy pasta'd the intro from there, the link is still there, written as "English patch for 3.01". I'll post it here as well just for the sake of convenience.
https://www.mediafire.com/?t1v567p5sced1zl
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Ah, I see. The link was overwritten but the name was still the same. That's why I thought that it was just a normal Eng patch. Sorry about that. :P
Anyway, looks like even Japanese players were stumped by the postgame. Almost every videos I have seen so far on youtube either they severely overlevel or severely overlevel and level down.
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My first party was like that- the standard for postgame parties in this game is pretty intense. My second playthrough party is working a lot better, so, I guess I'll be able to compare once plusdisk comes out. (Unless you just mean current postgame, in which case, yes, this second party is doing vastly better)
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Okay, the second sun is insane with that party switch skill. I'm assuming it's better to use tanky attackers for this fight than gamblers? Nitori and Flandre keep getting switched in only to get instantly annihilated.
Edit: Nevermind, literally the next fight I got lucky with the genji glove and flandre managed to deal 1.5m Damage with Laveatein, just rushed the boss from there on
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Luck plays a big factor in the Second Sun fight, and yes, bulky attackers are a good thing in that one if you feel like not being at the whim of the RNG. But you lucked out, so that's good.
How many of the special bosses have you faced so far, Kurovalia?
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Luck plays a big factor in the Second Sun fight, and yes, bulky attackers are a good thing in that one if you feel like not being at the whim of the RNG. But you lucked out, so that's good.
How many of the special bosses have you faced so far, Kurovalia?
I've faced all 12 enhanced bosses + The great C and the second sun, currently grinding a few more levels + some dragon mane before I face the Desire eating demon.
Speaking of which, does anyone know if several Genji Glove will increase the chance of 2x damage?
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After finding an Infinity Gem in a chest in B1F while flee-exploring, I decided to hack my infinity gem count to test out the higher level boost skills. From what I've observed, using a boost book will overwrite the lower level boost skill, clear it back to level 0 (you can't use a boost book unless you have maxed out the levels in previous boost skill), and return the skill points back to you. The two higher level boost skills have the same max level (5), but second boost costs 10 skill points per level and mega boost costs 50, and judging from the values I'm seeing in status screen, second boost gives 0.4 per level and mega boost gives 0.6 per level. So yeah, every character not named Rinnosuke needs two manuals (costing 36 gems in total, although who knows you might be able to find some in chests) to get a high boost equivalent that costs 50 skill points per level to invest in. (This also means that you really should not use those books unless you're sure you have the skill points to actually invest some levels in them.)
And I guess this answers the question from the previous thread. Maxing a mega boost, plus investing 10 gems and 10 orbs, give a total of 7 base stats (or 70 in the status window)
As a side note; the achievement for trading 20 infinity gem says it gives +250000 money in the achievement list, but it actually gives +400000.
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So maxing a -single- mega boost costs 250 skp, holy shit. That's one hell of a way to keep them prohibitive. Second Boost sounds pretty good though, and I'm pretty sure you can trade gems for the initial boost tomes (so that everyone can grab all the ones they care about) along with being able to buy stat gems/orbs I think... so you can still do one hell of a lot of base stat tweaking in postgame. Although, well, it sounds like infinity gems might actually be pretty hard to come across in large amounts. Infinite Corridor...?
Rinnosuke's don't become obsolete, that's for sure. :V His are 0.8 per level, so they're still stronger than megas, (granted his original stats are much worse, but look- when will you be able to max many mega boosts?) plus you can max all of his boosts for nearly half the cost of maxing every second boost, for double the power. In exchange he's got a dubious moveset and lowish base stats, but his passives are ridiculous and this is what subclasses are for. Can't lie though, he'll be a little less fascinating to use once Keine gets Impervious Formation Change to outclass his own. By then at least he can do offensive high boosts to make First Aid a good heal/buff and maybe go into bulky attacking?
I've also confirmed at this point that the new subclasses that look like Warrior/Sorceress but with more attack skills, really are just new classes that feature new skills, but only a single passive skill- one that modifies base stats a little. (with that plus the class bonus, you get +1.6 base atk or mag) :T So you get to choose either between more mag/atk buff stuff from the original subclasses, or a couple extra moves from the new subclasses. The JP wiki also lists delay; the self-buffs are 66%, swordmaster's new attacks are 60% and 52%, arch-mage or w/e it was is 27.5% and 10% (with the latter having good mind piercing). The self-buffs for each are +38% atk/mag at max and -27% def/mnd.
A lot of characters would likely rather have the passive buff upkeep, but there's also a lot of characters who would welcome a couple extra skills... mph. It's hard to consider Swordmaster when it's nature attack could instead be the monk's def-piercing nature skill though, and all of the monk's useful passives. The magic variant is a little more considerable for people who aren't too heavily wanting the mag buff (Yuuka has more than enough buffs herself; she wants more interesting spells!) but buffs are preeeeetty tempting when the new skills are mega high delay and high mp cost, with likely not-terribly-large power scales. We'll just have to see how strong they are I guess.
The original subclasses only give like 0.4 increased base stat though so at least for the loss of buff, you get a little more stattage at 1.6. As an aside, just reminding that Gambler is +40% damage at max in plus instead of +90%. That's not bad still, but you can get a fair amount of damage increase off warrior/sorc too from their passives, which starts to make Gambler look a lot less worth the complete loss of survivability and doubled mp cost. Might still be worth it on people who will almost never take a hit anyway without unworthy amounts of investment, who won't really miss that mp either, but even then there's the moveset expansions...
I also looked at the character page and bug section of the jp wiki. They seem to be unaware of Sealing Club's stat boost not working. Unless the english patch breaks it somehow even when running the jp plus disk exe (this seems highly unlikely if not borderline impossible...) it's possible that no one on the jp side is really aware it's not working, which would likely be why it hasn't been fixed. Considering Renko/Maribel is only recruited well into postgame and Plus Disk isn't released yet (for much content to exist after unlocking them), and the fact that you can't really tell it's not working unless you actively compare numbers... this does seem like a realistic scenario. I wonder how one would go about reporting bugs. If nothing else one could throw it at his twitter, but I wonder if that's rude... (I can't hope to formulate a sentence in Japanese regardless, though.)
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Yeah you can exchange gems for stat gems, orbs and tomes of insights too. This is Akyuu's inventory for those who are interested:
Chest Key - 2 gems (almost definitely implying that locked chests will show up again, likely in endless corridor even)
Tome of Reincarnation - 5 gems
Orihalcon - 16 gems
Adamantite - 16 gems (those two are materials)
[A set of six single stat+400% subequips in the order of HP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD] - 4 gems
[A set of four single stat+144% plus four elemental resist+128/four ailment resist+50] - 6 gems
Paladin Shield (DEF+450%, MND+225%, Evade+12, FIR CLD SPI DRK PHY+70, DBF+50) - 16 gems
Fairy "Navi" (MP+2 HP/DEF/SPD+166% MND+422% Evade+24 SPI+100 SIL+72) - 16 gems
Long Sword "Crimson Lotus Princess" (HP/ATK+412%, MAG/SPD+199%, FIR+144, DRK+72 PAR/TRR/DTH+40) - 20 gems
Flower Blade Kikuryusei (HP/ATK/DEF/MAG+368%, SPD+256%, PHY+50, DTH+50) - 20 gems
Gran Grimoire (MP+4, MAG+600%, MND+360%, All Elements+48) - 30 gems
Necronomicon (TP+6, HP+360%, MAG/MND+480%, All Ailments+24) - 30 gems
[A set of three normal reward increasers] - 4 gems
[A set of three alternative reward increasers] - 12 gems - These have the same magnitude and cap as the normal set, but they stack with the normal set and likely have their own cap
[A set of stat gems - HP, MP, TP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD] - 2 gems
[A set of stat orbs - HP, MP, TP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD] - 4 gems - these can only be used on characters who already used 10 gems of that stat, and have the same 0.2 bonus per orb
[A set of Tomes of Insight - HP, MP, TP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD, Evade, Accuracy, Affinity, Resists] - 6 gems
[A set of Tomes of Vigorous Training - for learning second boosts] - 12 gems
[A set of Tomes of Endless Drilling - for learning mega boosts] - 24 gems
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I also looked at the character page and bug section of the jp wiki. They seem to be unaware of Sealing Club's stat boost not working. Unless the english patch breaks it somehow even when running the jp plus disk exe (this seems highly unlikely if not borderline impossible...) it's possible that no one on the jp side is really aware it's not working, which would likely be why it hasn't been fixed. Considering Renko/Maribel is only recruited well into postgame and Plus Disk isn't released yet (for much content to exist after unlocking them), and the fact that you can't really tell it's not working unless you actively compare numbers... this does seem like a realistic scenario. I wonder how one would go about reporting bugs. If nothing else one could throw it at his twitter, but I wonder if that's rude... (I can't hope to formulate a sentence in Japanese regardless, though.)
Serela, how many of the bugged skills are still bugged in the plus disk demo?
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I know for sure that Meiling still doesn't get speed bonus for not sitting on the left.
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I also looked at the character page and bug section of the jp wiki. They seem to be unaware of Sealing Club's stat boost not working. Unless the english patch breaks it somehow even when running the jp plus disk exe (this seems highly unlikely if not borderline impossible...) it's possible that no one on the jp side is really aware it's not working, which would likely be why it hasn't been fixed. Considering Renko/Maribel is only recruited well into postgame and Plus Disk isn't released yet (for much content to exist after unlocking them), and the fact that you can't really tell it's not working unless you actively compare numbers... this does seem like a realistic scenario. I wonder how one would go about reporting bugs. If nothing else one could throw it at his twitter, but I wonder if that's rude... (I can't hope to formulate a sentence in Japanese regardless, though.)
That's really unfortunate. Maribel has the potential to be really good with that buff and her unique skills, but her stats are too average to work w/o Sealing Club... I truly hope somebody on the jp side eventually realises.
Is there a link to some sort of bug tracker/reporter, even if in japanese language? If you give me the link, I could persuade a japanese friend of mine to write it down for me
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I had been looking on thlaby2's page for something like a bug reporter, but didn't see anything. Unless it's on the generic 3peso site, I wouldn't know what to do other than either look for an email or send it to his twitter. I could certainly be missing something though. It bothers me because I would really like to use Maribel too, and she does have notable potential if she can get that stat boost- she can benefit from it very often considering Renko is an amazing tank.
Thanks for translating the Akyuu shop enough to see prices, RegalStar! I was really curious about that.
Serela, how many of the bugged skills are still bugged in the plus disk demo?
Most bugs were fixed in the latest non-plus release; out of the ones I still knew, Counter skills no longer reset your ATB (this makes them actually usable, hooray! Wriggle/Iku/Yuugi users rejoice!), and Maribel's Meddling With Boundaries now actually lowers buff decay as intended. I don't personally recall any others not working except Sealing Club... hmm, okay, the jp wiki lists a few more. (https://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/95.html)
About Meiling's speed passive... it also decreases damage by 32%, making Meiling so amazing in tandem with her godlike Mountain Breaker that seriously, she really doesn't need any more speed. She's stupid good as-is, even without any other sdm members. So, what's more likely is it should be removed from the description instead. :V I have a feeling it's not fixed for a reason like 3peso deciding it's better not to- it would have been better in Meiling's original design where her attack growth was much lower.
If nothing else, the Sealing Club bug could be reported in the jp wiki comments and hope the message gets cycled around to 3peso by someone in the next month or two. (Especially if it included a note like "Unsure where to report to developer"). :V It wouldn't hurt to report it on there in any case.
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Also Cooling Down is still bugged. It's supposed to not kick in if your current HP is below max HP, but instead it doesn't kick in if your current HP is above your max HP :V (Made doubly funnier because Eirin of all people have this skill). Of course since being at below maxHP is much more common than being at above maxHP, it's not something I'm complaining very loudly about.
Also I tried reporting the sealing club on atwiki but apparently it doesn't accept comments from gaijins :( I know a friend who might know people living in Japan though; I'll ask them when I see them.
EDIT: I got someone to submit a report on atwiki for me. So yay.
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Most bugs were fixed in the latest non-plus release; out of the ones I still knew, Counter skills no longer reset your ATB (this makes them actually usable, hooray! Wriggle/Iku/Yuugi users rejoice!), and Maribel's Meddling With Boundaries now actually lowers buff decay as intended. I don't personally recall any others not working except Sealing Club... hmm, okay, the jp wiki lists a few more. (https://translate.google.com/translate?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/95.html)
I looked at the link and it appears to be showing stuff about Youmu, not the bugs...
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Here's the bug page in Japanese. (http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/108.html)
This is also where you would go submit bug reports - if you have a Japanese IP address.
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Why not just send it to him on twitter?
...I wonder if he'd respond to English reports, even.
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Here's the bug page in Japanese. (http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/108.html)
This is also where you would go submit bug reports - if you have a Japanese IP address.
English translation of the page. (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww54.atwiki.jp%2Fthlabyroth2%2Fpages%2F108.html&sandbox=1)
It says something about Extra Attack and Magic Conservation not interacting well with each other, among other things...
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Somehow I handled the level 160 boss icon fairly easily yet could not make a dent in Culex. What's with the challenge levels in this game?
Double post: Silly Kogasa, too busy trying to Terror Eater Mokou to realize that Meiling is ripping her apart. Also I noticed that Shadow Kogasa seems to have no TRR resistance, then took a look at my own Kogasa and found that yup, she has 0 TRR resistance herself. It's somehow strangely amusing.
Triple post: Tested new swordmaster spells a little bit. Moon Shadow Flash seems to be around 1.69-0.65, and Samidare Slash about 1.8-0.6 (though it may be a little bit lower).
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Oops. I forgot when you go to a new page in google translate, it doesn't change your url unless you open in a new tab. I started at the youmu page before going to the bugs so it was still that. And yeah, I mused about twitter myself :V I wasn't going to try to tweet at him in english though. Although I imagine he'd be flattered to find out we bothered to patch his games into english and have a stable fanbase for his game (We talked about ThLaby1 for years and years...) there's also likely a sort of a stigma against the near entire english piracy of doujin games?
...not that any of that really matters for a bug report. He might just think we play it in japanese anyway and deal with it. That's really an overreaction on my part :V I was mostly just idling because I'm not google translating a message to japanese.
Somehow I handled the level 160 boss icon fairly easily yet could not make a dent in Culex. What's with the challenge levels in this game?
Triple post: Tested new swordmaster spells a little bit. Moon Shadow Flash seems to be around 1.69-0.65, and Samidare Slash about 1.8-0.6 (though it may be a little bit lower).
160 should be the... Desire Eating Demon? If you've got certain characters he's not very hard since he's really just a gimmick fight. Culex's defenses, on the other hand, are somewhat problematic, plus he's notably easier if you can take out most of the crystals ASAP with master spark or lavaeteinn or something (and especially if you just leave a less annoying one alive so he doesn't go into crazy mode...) Similarly, Great C is a gimmick fight, while Second Sun can be a hard boss.
...are the new swordmaster skills that disappointing? I mean, Explosive Flame Sword on warrior is 237% - 77% >.> I'm also really confused that Samidare Slash, the AoE, is the stronger skill?? 169% attack is really sad for a single target postgame skill on a class whose entire point is "It's Warrior, except you lose all the passives to get two new skills and slightly more base atk.", whether it gives the party 1mp or not. Have you tested it on neutral 1f enemies to see just the base attack influence when def isn't in the picture?
If you're finding the new subclasses, I'm curious about the new magic attacks c: I want to see if they're good enough to care... apparently Execution has good mind piercing, at the least. In version C apparently they both ignored mind entirely, ahahha, but that was fixed.
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I was talking about the 160 icon in B1F (ie.
Shadow Onis
). I did beat Desire Eating Demon too, although since I didn't have perpetual Cat's Walk engine for it, it was still a thing.
And I'm fairly certain that the total attack influence of Moon Shadow Flash is around 1.69ish (Ran with 1996 attack was doing high 3300s to the 1F enemies). I did kind of just assume that the def factor is 0.65 though since I haven't actually tried using it on higher def enemies unlike Samidare; just went with the most used template of (x-0.5)*x. I'll give it some more tries later. For Archmage I have to actually get the proof item first; I just defeated Shadow Kogasa
and the proof haven't yet shown up.
Also the guy answered my twitter "@MajesticMystic ｳｵｵ只今確認できました！ご報告ありがとうございます！ " So Sealing Club should be fixed on the next update.
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I was talking about the 160 icon in B1F (ie. Shadow Onis
). I did beat Desire Eating Demon too, although since I didn't have perpetual Cat's Walk engine for it, it was still a thing.
derpaderpaderp, right, plus disk trial stuff
I imagine it's because the others are like, superbosses, but the actual Plus Disk fights are just "common" bosses. The distinction gets a little mixed up with level recs being in this game and postgame/plus disk meshing together, but, yeah.
And, huh... that's... weird. I guess they really -are- just not very strong...??? I guess at least that means I don't have to give a crap about swordmaster? I still think I might want to use Arch Mage (magus? w/e) on Maribel, since she'll be concentrating every other turn a lot (also making the expensive high-delay arch mage skills more usable- not to mention she could totally use new all-targets for randoms as Void is certainly nice, but it's not a very strong skill or ever hitting weakness) and her synergy with Renko makes the higher base stat increase more valuable. She can self-buff and has innate low buff decay anyway so she doesn't need the passive mag bonus quite as much. (I'm still considering just leaving her as Sorceress, but in the end, it's really probably not important.)
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Well Swordmaster does still get the two Warrior spells so they can use Flaming Sword, so Moon Shadow Flash is probably more meant to be an auxillary spell for when elemental affinities favor it, or when someone on the frontline is just one MP short of casting some spell they desperately want to get out right now. And Samidare is still heaps better than Iai Slash :V
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Yeah, an auxillary spell- but the issue is that it's Warrior with none of the useful passives. If the new single-target isn't even all that good, well... it makes it look like you should just use Warrior instead!
Samidare Slash actually looks like a pretty decent skill, considering it's a good AoE for randoms and still strong enough to be good on elemental roulette in bosses. (Why is Severing Flash/Iai Slash so uselessly awful anyway?!) But Moon Shadow Flash would -only- be of any use on nature weak enemies (Sometimes by a pretty small margin if your other attacks aren't resisted, depending) and even then, only because it's less effort than switching to Monk for a much better nature attack with useful passives.
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To this day, I still don't know why Iai Slash is so weak and slow. I mean, for that sort of low power, you could just reduce its delay(88% post use gauge), cut the cost in half, and it could see actual use as a means to gain buffs via passives(the character's own or Warrior's passives) or something.
Edit: Also, would Moon Shadow Flash be more useful if it was a row targeting spell?
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It would be more useful if it kept the rev.C bug where it fully restored the user's MP every time it's used :3
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At it's current power it'd be useful if it was -all- target maybe. Otherwise it'd need to either be better power or better delay- depending on whether to improve it's use offensive or it's use mp-support-wise.
I've been thinking about it, meanwhile, and Satori's "deal half current HP as damage to all enemies each time Satori gets a turn" inf. corridor skill sounds pretty high potential... with Plus Disk stuff it could be viable to run her as an HP wall of sorts, she'd deal damage whilst using support skills, you could use Instant Attack people with Small MP Recovery to give her crazy mp flow, and the big one here; use her in tandem with someone like Reisen or Chen and she could blast out actual large irresistable damage with their low-delay self buffs. Maybe even sub her enchanter so it pumps her HP back up, i'unno. Healing a full hp-focused build character in postgame is probably actually kinda hard without % hp healing like that. Chen's got 95% delay and Reisen has a dang 98%, and if you raise Satori's max mp, she can get a buttload off swapping out with an instant attacker and immediately back into the fray. Otherwise you'd probably sub healer for an actual heal skill on the side, with a weaker passive hp regen.
Alternatively if Ninja's Fast Movement delay is low enough, she could solo the damage rush, but you wouldn't have the passive healing and it's delay likely doesn't compare to Chen/Reisen.
She hardly needs her atk/mag/def/mnd in such a build (since her def/mnd is terrible) but the Earth Spirits family skill looks to have serious potential postgame. Proof of Kinship would give +24% stats with ONE member in the front row of 4, Orin gets pretty sweet corridor skills, and Utsuho got buffed moves and has serious potential for lategame tankiness through base stat tweaks and Fighting Spirit to capitalize endless Overheat with.
edit:Got Satori to 85k HP within completely realistic measures at lv178, that'd be workable enough damage to consider... pretty good results in tandem with, say, Reisen. Of course, having to recover the mp enough to blast out a ton of damage again would be a little effort even if Small MP Recovery has heavy potential- high postgame levels and Second MP Boost and mp gems would make it TOTALLY work though. I'd have to be hoping HP-based damage would scale slightly better than atk-based damage and then she'd have serious sweetness potential late postgame.
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I've been thinking about it, meanwhile, and Satori's "deal half current HP as damage to all enemies each time Satori gets a turn" inf. corridor skill sounds pretty high potential... with Plus Disk stuff it could be viable to run her as an HP wall of sorts, she'd deal damage whilst using support skills, you could use Instant Attack people with Small MP Recovery to give her crazy mp flow, and the big one here; use her in tandem with someone like Reisen or Chen and she could blast out actual large irresistable damage with their low-delay self buffs. Maybe even sub her enchanter so it pumps her HP back up, i'unno. Healing a full hp-focused build character in postgame is probably actually kinda hard without % hp healing like that. Chen's got 95% delay and Reisen has a dang 98%, and if you raise Satori's max mp, she can get a buttload off swapping out with an instant attacker and immediately back into the fray. Otherwise you'd probably sub healer for an actual heal skill on the side, with a weaker passive hp regen.
Alternatively if Ninja's Fast Movement delay is low enough, she could solo the damage rush, but you wouldn't have the passive healing and it's delay likely doesn't compare to Chen/Reisen.
She hardly needs her atk/mag/def/mnd in such a build (since her def/mnd is terrible) but the Earth Spirits family skill looks to have serious potential postgame. Proof of Kinship would give +24% stats with ONE member in the front row of 4, Orin gets pretty sweet corridor skills, and Utsuho got buffed moves and has serious potential for lategame tankiness through base stat tweaks and Fighting Spirit to capitalize endless Overheat with.
edit:Got Satori to 85k HP within completely realistic measures at lv178, that'd be workable enough damage to consider... pretty good results in tandem with, say, Reisen. Of course, having to recover the mp enough to blast out a ton of damage again would be a little effort even if Small MP Recovery has heavy potential- high postgame levels and Second MP Boost and mp gems would make it TOTALLY work though. I'd have to be hoping HP-based damage would scale slightly better than atk-based damage and then she'd have serious sweetness potential late postgame.
Burst damage via ultra low delay buffing...
Also, the fact that you stated that percentage based healing is going to be a needed thing to heal high HP targets makes me think of Eirin and her 50% heal. You think that that spell will see some action in late post-game?
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I created the pages for B1F and B2F on wiki and wrote some provisional info on them. Without a bestiary (or with me being blind and missing it in some obvious place) there are a lot of question marks, and I only have my own experiences to go for on those shadow bosses, so those boss sections will need a lot of work. At least I think I described the dungeons themselves OK.
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whos a better tank between momiji,tenshi and youmu? gonna replace aya as she is becoming not so useful now that i mostly use SDM party as a opener and sakuya speed buff is party wide.
even better if repeat action trigger
whats the oponion on tokiko skillset so far?
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Probably Tenshi? Youmu actually has pretty good physical tankiness and meikyuu shisui is very helpful on that front, but her mind is crap so she can't really tank magic well. Momiji has great stats (best defense growth in the game actually; no idea why it wasn't labelled as such on the wiki), but completely lacks any sort of passives to help her out on that front.
For swordmaster, maybe Yuuka can make decent use of it? Moon Shadow Flash is about the same speed as Flower Shot and is only a little bit less powerful, but with extra attack she can potentially restore a lot of MP to the frontlines, and she at least doesn't care about the buffing passive of Warrior since she buffs herself fast enough without it. She would also like having a decent row target attack to make up for the loss of AoE.
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I created the pages for B1F and B2F on wiki and wrote some provisional info on them. Without a bestiary (or with me being blind and missing it in some obvious place) there are a lot of question marks, and I only have my own experiences to go for on those shadow bosses, so those boss sections will need a lot of work. At least I think I described the dungeons themselves OK.
I don't know if this still applies to revision D (haven't had the time to play it) but in revision B, all the entries for the basement floors - both generic enemies and shadow bosses - that I managed to get were shoved in the middle, right between the 20F Depths enemies and the twelve FOEs.
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I don't know if this still applies to revision D (haven't had the time to play it) but in revision B, all the entries for the basement floors - both generic enemies and shadow bosses - that I managed to get were shoved in the middle, right between the 20F Depths enemies and the twelve FOEs.
Oh, you're right. Thanks; I'll go put them in tomorrow morning.
Well, just a quick thing I noticed: Every shadow boss is classified as a ghost, just like how every normal touhou boss is classified as a human. Youmu finally has something to do~
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You were writing about bug fixes earlier, and I don't know if I'm just blind or stupid if I missed it, but have the skills on Kanako and Suwako been fixed, cause if my memory serves me right, they had some skills that wasn't working.
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Burst damage via ultra low delay buffing...
Also, the fact that you stated that percentage based healing is going to be a needed thing to heal high HP targets makes me think of Eirin and her 50% heal. You think that that spell will see some action in late post-game?
If you're running an HP wall, you're probably going to want either Eirin or a MAG build Minoriko/Sanae. Reimu/Rumia/Maribel certainly aren't going to cut it for people with x5+ as much HP as the rest of the party. (MAYBE Maribel would vaguely work if enhancer lets her double-dip both it's passives with her buff+heal combo DIY Novice Barrier- not an entirely bad build if her infinite corridor skill synergizes with enhancer. IF.)
At least Komachi can get massive HP regen? People say she's a really good tank but I haven't tried her TBH, so I don't know how it goes.
Healer Eirin is amazing for limit breaker anyway, so, sure thing. We'll see how mag/hp scale later into postgame, whether that keeps running strong or not. Healer's heal did get cut nearly in half, but she can still totally overheal for more than most people's max HP at the end of non-plus postgame, which is still preeeetty sweet- especially on any lower hp characters who get a whole lot more than their normal max out of it. And with her mind piercing, she's a pretty decent attacker at the same time (since you want plenty of MAG for overheal as it is- she's already bulky enough to easily live to overheal herself)
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Tested Archmage spells. Southern Cross seems to be around the neighborhood of 200-82.5 or so (I can't really pin down the exact formula), while Execution I'm fairly certain is 240.25-77.5, just a tiiiiiiny bit more powerful than Explosive Flame Sword.
Also, now that I'm looking at Blood Sword's description in Nitori's menu, I think it's actually "recover 4% HP when attacking (with anything)", rather than recover 4% of damage, which would make a lot more sense. Remilia and Flandre's endless corridor Vampire Attack is probably the same.
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Also, now that I'm looking at Blood Sword's description in Nitori's menu, I think it's actually "recover 4% HP when attacking (with anything)", rather than recover 4% of damage, which would make a lot more sense. Remilia and Flandre's endless corridor Vampire Attack is probably the same.
By "anything", you mean that spells will work with it? Because that would more useful for a fast attacker than a strong one(Iku is both thanks to her spells and passives, but details)...
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The original text means something like "offensive action", so I'd imagine any attack will work with it. Meiling's Brilliant Light Gem can probably combo with it nicely (and that spell's also appreciating the fact that fighting plus disk bosses no longer feel like trying to bash your head against a titanium wall. Or several titanium walls).
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Archmage sounds worth using for some characters. High cost and delay, but that's much better than being weak but decent speed like Moon Shadow Flash, and it's useful alltargets for randoms. Yuuka especially would really love that class... actual elemental variety and she really isn't going to miss Sorceror's buffs too much with her own self-buffing expertise. I think it'll work nicely subbed on Maribel with her grand incantation and need for more stuff, but I'll miss the mag buffs a little bit even so... I'll give it a whirl and see how I like it. Hmm, come to think of it, she already HAS a good dark spell, so maybe she's fine on Sorceror after all...
Recovering part of your max HP makes a lot more sense, yeah... I was thinking Remilia went from underwhelming to a little -too- exciting sounding with that passive. Definitely still a neat item. It might be interesting on Extra Attackers!
...she wouldn't use Blood Sword, but Minoriko can get 16% hp regen with only her passives (inf. corridor- extra 6% regen that will overheal up to 150% max hp) and is fairly speedy... maybe where she really shines is with tweaking up her max HP. Her other corridor skill combines both her support skills into one (using one casts lv1 of the other; aka Owotoshi Harvester becomes a 70% delay power heal with 57% def/mnd buff), and then she can sub for either more support as, say, Herbalist (to actually stay relevant with her newfound tankiness to capitalize on her immense hp/mp regen capability) or be a side-support with nuking power as a Sorceror to capitalize on her 8% passive party mag buff. Hmm. I suppose this actually sounds like a usable purpose for Minoriko in BOTH cases- offensive build OR support build. She can upkeep her own high health via regen and her Emergency Recovery ability and Owotoshi Harvesters whilst passively buffing team MAG and using her speediness for many heals to make up for not being alltarget.
HP Boost is STRONGER than other boosts at 0.4 instead of 0.2- I don't know if this increases by +0.4 or still +0.2 on second boost, but if you give her a First Aid Kit, First HP Boost, and 10 HP Gems, she's already matching (slightly beating) Komachi's base HP... and with a good chunk cheaper library levels and actual good MND. It sounds entirely workable to me. First Aid Kits and HP gems are valuable but for her regen and support, sounds fine; you can easily afford to give her that much before even beating the maingame.
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The original text means something like "offensive action", so I'd imagine any attack will work with it. Meiling's Brilliant Light Gem can probably combo with it nicely (and that spell's also appreciating the fact that fighting plus disk bosses no longer feel like trying to bash your head against a titanium wall. Or several titanium walls).
Yeah, that's good. Now it's a steel wall or three that show up as random encounters, if I'm hearing things right about plus disk. :V
...she wouldn't use Blood Sword, but Minoriko can get 16% hp regen with only her passives (inf. corridor- extra 6% regen that will overheal up to 150% max hp) and is fairly speedy... maybe where she really shines is with tweaking up her max HP. Her other corridor skill combines both her support skills into one (using one casts lv1 of the other; aka Owotoshi Harvester becomes a 70% delay power heal with 57% def/mnd buff), and then she can sub for either more support as, say, Herbalist (to actually stay relevant with her newfound tankiness to capitalize on her immense hp/mp regen capability) or be a side-support with nuking power as a Sorceror to capitalize on her 8% passive party mag buff. Hmm. I suppose this actually sounds like a usable purpose for Minoriko in BOTH cases- offensive build OR support build. She can upkeep her own high health via regen and her Emergency Recovery ability and Owotoshi Harvesters whilst passively buffing team MAG and using her speediness for many heals to make up for not being alltarget.
HP Boost is STRONGER than other boosts at 0.4 instead of 0.2- I don't know if this increases by +0.4 or still +0.2 on second boost, but if you give her a First Aid Kit, First HP Boost, and 10 HP Gems, she's already matching (slightly beating) Komachi's base HP... and with a good chunk cheaper library levels and actual good MND. It sounds entirely workable to me. First Aid Kits and HP gems are valuable but for her regen and support, sounds fine; you can easily afford to give her that much before even beating the maingame.
Don't forget about Enhancer's passives, Serela. Since the infinite corridor skill makes Owotoshi Harvester buff and a heal, Enhancer's passives would boost the DEF/MND buff to either 89% or 97%(this is presuming that the buff is boosted to max level, because why wouldn't you?), depending on if the 20% DEF/MND passive buff from a heal is counted before Enhanced Buffing applies or after. Either way, that's a crazy good buff to have, and Mino gets a percent based and MAG based heal together done at the same time as the buff. All that for 70% post use gauge and 4 MP.
I think I know why she only gets those two passives in infinite corridor: it's all that she really needs.
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At first I thought the regen passive was cruddy because her max hp was low, but now I see it really is what she needed; you just have to be willing to spend for her max HP and she really starts getting somewhere.
I didn't forget about Enhancer, but it really isn't worth it, I think. You'll already have a whole lot of buffing power in your party, and if you sub Enhancer, than Owotoshi Harvester is pretty much the ONLY thing Minoriko can do; that's a bit of a waste of her incredible MP flow she's got going on, and her heal is strong enough already for people not named Komachi, nor does she need the power for herself when she has Emergency Recovery. Nah, what Minoriko needs is a subclass with useful support skills like Herbalist, or -maybe- Magician (although I'd disagree there). Herbalist Minoriko is amusingly fitting, but yes; it'd let her spam Placebo to upkeep Renko/Byakuren/Keine buffs (Atk/Spd are important too after all!) and Herb of Awakening for damage support when she isn't healing. Placebo's even still 70% delay for speeding along that mag buff and hp regen.
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I was thinking more about the incredibly high DEF/MND buff than the heal, since only Tenshi has a better DEF/MND buff, and Tenshi's is a self buff with a crapload of issues compared to Mino's. Just having the ability to buff anyone to almost that level of defense and mind is kinda nuts.
Still, I can easily see why you would see it as a waste, as MP flow like that would be able to pay for any MP cost from the subclass spells, and her speed is just enough to make full use of them, too.
On a related note, I had been curious as to why the Enhancer and Hexer subclasses do not have a spell that buffs/debuffs speed. Would that by itself make them OP or something?
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Mamizou spell numbers. These are only base values; I didn't test for the boost the last two spells get for fulfilling conditions.
Scrolls of Frolicking Animals 165-66
Futatsuiwa Clan's Curse 268.96-82
Mamizou Danmaku in Ten Transformations 205.2-76
Full Moon Pompokolin 256-80
Double post: 21F has encounters now. You can't use M to get them quickly, but they're there. They're labelled as around level 190-210ish so they aren't that special, but they do have a new battle theme not played anywhere else!
Triple post: Well, that's the plus disk trial done for me. I still haven't fought that level 188 icon on B3F yet but otherwise I don't think anything is left in there. Too bad there's no endless corridor yet.
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In the latest trial version (D), you can press M on 21F once you beat the main boss on B4F but you can't go too far. Otherwise, the trial will end immediately.
Other than that, there are 3 more shadow bosses you can fight, 1 main boss and 2 characters to recruit.
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There's an even more recent version (D') which supposedly fixes the problem of 21F not working correctly after you beat the B4F boss.
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Theoretically the infinite corridor IS supposed to be in this trial version, though? Maybe we misread something because google translate, but... yeah, try checking out 21f (assuming you've done b4f)
I was thinking more about the incredibly high DEF/MND buff than the heal, since only Tenshi has a better DEF/MND buff, and Tenshi's is a self buff with a crapload of issues compared to Mino's. Just having the ability to buff anyone to almost that level of defense and mind is kinda nuts.
Still, I can easily see why you would see it as a waste, as MP flow like that would be able to pay for any MP cost from the subclass spells, and her speed is just enough to make full use of them, too.
On a related note, I had been curious as to why the Enhancer and Hexer subclasses do not have a spell that buffs/debuffs speed. Would that by itself make them OP or something?
I did account for that in saying the party already has a lot of buffing power- granted that was only a glancing mention. But yeah, between people like Byakuren/Renko/Keine/Reimu/etc, for mooost of the battle apart from the very start your party should be in a state of decaying buffs, not unbuffed. 57% should easily be enough to either max it out or get them close enough it doesn't matter. Now, 89~97% buffs IS somewhat exciting for people just being switched in, but in the end, it really isn't special enough due to Minoriko's lack of other innate support (and the fact that you still need them buffed by the others for speed and/or offense anyway). Infinitely casting herbalist skills with only a rare need to concentrate is special; Desire to Rest and Rapid Charge will have her almost never needing to use a turn recouping, and Placebo lets her viably take the place of the other buffers in the front row for awhile.
On speed, it wouldn't make them OP at all imo (almost all bosses heavily resist speed debuffs before long, anyway), but speed does tend to be the more special one of the lot. In LoT1 a lot of buff/debuffs that covered "all" didn't do speed, but in LoT2 that was changed to where almost all of them do.
Mmm, only tangentially related, but Tenshi really doesn't seem that special of a tank in this game... her support passives are Keystone Formation and phys damage reduction, and whilst phys damage down is one of the better damage reduction passives, she's soooo slow when it comes to Keystone or subclass support, her only innate support skill is a self-only def/mnd buff (GRANTED, removing buffs is really useful on -some- bosses; it's just useless on most others...) and her defenses REALLY aren't much higher than anyone else's in this game, along with being forced to invest into her max hp. Level rate/library isn't notably good to help with either of those. Plus her corridor skills are mostly only good in randoms. Hooray, starts the battle with a def/mnd buff...?
She's a great bulky attacker if you use her with Iku, though, as her move formulas are actually pretty great (Plus Iku is awesome and would like her own huge def/mnd buff with tenshi out) and with base stat tweaks in Plus Disk she can actually really get somewhere with that. +40% base attack with Iku out becomes even more special when you've tweaked the base up; it's like having a 40% more powerful Attack Boost skill, attack gems etc. Granted, she needs that extra oomph to continue to be genuinely worth a party slot.
I mean, Tenshi works enough as a tank, but a lot of people are arguably tankier than Tenshi is, whilst bringing more useful support options to the table. In LoT2 before long you're choosing tanks more for their passives/skills than their stats and she hardly even wins out in stats to start with. When I've got Renko/Byakuren/Hina/Rinnosuke(switch power!! keine after corridor) as tanks with awesome support prowess that I NEED to have them out for regularly, and 3 of those are nearly-as or more tanky than Tenshi, well... Tenshi would hardly ever be out even if she was in the party :V This is also why Momiji tank loses despite having amazing stats and some alright passives, but she's also a super solid bulky attacker once you sub her for more attack moves.
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If the plus disk bosses I've fought are any indication, bosses buffing up is going to be the new meta. Five out of ten battles feature at least one boss buffing either themselves or their entire team, with at least three of them capable of getting close to +100%, and not all of them are very vulerable to getting debuffed down either. Sword of Hisou would be really helpful on those kind of battles.
And 21F ends as soon as you walk into the new hallway. Maybe if I can figure out how to edit the dungeon floor files I can walk around it and see what's on the rest of the floor, but I'm not really sure how. Someone mentioned before editing a text file in a data folder or something, but I don't know where it is.
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Oh.
Well, that's a little different then. O: I somewhat suspected that when I saw the Oracle/Prophet class... I mean, why have a class that's absolutely useless against anything but bosses who buff themselves?
This is very good news for Maribel, on the other hand. (She laughs at your 0% attack/defense stats with the 100% buff!) And even more encouragement for bulky attacker Tenshi! This also makes Eyes That See Reality more relevant... Momiji, Satori, and Nazrin. I'm mildly surprised Shikieiki doesn't have such a skill, but it's not like she doesn't have many other useful things and already ignores def.
edit:Sealing Club's ineffectiveness was added to the Plus Disk trial bug list. As well, I learned that in the trial version, you can use A/S on level bonus allocation to move by 10 and 100 points, which is incredibly handy as the numbers soar higher and higher.
(If you can't tell, one of my favorite things about these games is strategy discussion and character builds/party theorycrafting. In this game it's SO hard to just pick 12 people!)
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I used cheat engine to hack myself onto the rest of 21F. The stairway to 22F crashes the game if used, and otherwise there don't seem to be anything interesting there, just a big floor with lots of wind tiles (which work like EO lily pads except you get blown across the room instead of ferried across). Enemies seem to give a LOT of rewards though; even more so than the basement. Oh and Appraiser's proof is on 21F so now I have that subclass too; not that I really plan on using it (unless I need to go in major farm mode)
Also, there's a big hole on B4F behind Futo. In terms of plot it ejects a lot of malicious spirit that was used by Futo to heal herself (which is why she has to be fought twice), and on the map there's an exclamation mark on it, but it's non-interactive as of yet. Maybe that's supposed to be the entrance to endless corridor?
And to answer something from a few posts back; HP second boost and HP mega boost all adds 0.4 to their previous boost skill, so mega boost is 1.2.
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So HP Second Boost is +4 base hp. That's pretty sweet- it goes a long way to making lower-hp characters much more survivable. Renko gets 12% hp regen with Maribel out, too, and can easily maintennance up decent def/mnd and high affinities even with hp gear... *Drools* It's tempting to sub her something other than Enhancer so she can have more to do, but Charge is pretty painful without it on. Hmm. It has 0 delay on it, so I guess I don't want to use it if I want to leave Renko out a -lot-, anyway... my team currently has no Herbalist so I suppose that could work? (I was thinking of giving it to Keine, but as she'll be swapping a lot and trying to get history accumulation up, I'll likely give her a more passive class like strategist)
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(http://puu.sh/swiXg/cbb47cbd2d.png)
Well the answer was right before my nose. On the screenshot section of the main website, the one with the endless corridor menu says "Entering the big hole in B4F", so I'm pretty sure that the big hole on B4F is the entrance. That it's non-interactive now means that yeah, endless corridor can't be entered on the trial yet. Oh well, at least I can get to it immediately after the real thing comes out (assuming I can use my trial save data (and I better can; otherwise I'd have wasted 61 hours for nothing)).
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Well, that's that, then.
I would imagine the trial save data should work fine, yeah. There certainly wasn't any mention of it not in the data; just that it won't be compatible with non-plus anymore.
edit:Rechecked Tenshi's infinite corridor skills- I mostly only remembered More Enduring Celestial, but she also gets an hp increase (direly needed) and a passive def/mnd 8% buff each time she's hit, which is a fairly nice thing. That's a little better than I recall. Whilst she's still boring as a tank off those merits, if self-buffing bosses are an epidemic in postgame, that makes a massive difference in her usefulness- there's no way to deny how useful she'd be as either a tank or offensively against those. Iku's also got some pretty great plus disk buffs ensuring she continues to be a wonderful character, further encouraging Tenshi use for synergy...
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Shou:
Hungry Tiger: 225-75
Radiant Treasure Gun: 140-70
Dazzling Gold: 117.76(ATK+MAG)-32
Futo:
Mononobe's Eighty Sake Cups: 196-70
Gate Opening for Catastrophe: 243.36-78
Miwa Plate Storm: 156-65
Taiyi True Fire: 240-100
Are any of these plus disk characters worth anything? They all look more gimmicky than useful. Futo seems the most useful of the bunch (mainly that source of 40% DR), but she probably needs Miko as well to function decently.
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Mamizou can always hit weakness by using her normal attack to alter element (and her normal attack is only like 8600 delay and can be empowered if you choose Sorc, so it's not a waste of time- lasts the whole boss fight) and she's got high HP to take some hits when she comes out, so she seems fine to me, albiet not particularly exciting. Futo's plate break passives give VERY powerful effects and Gate Opening for Catastrophe seems pretty good, with decent alternative attacks for resistant bosses.
When you consider the huge bonuses to offense and/or defense Futo can get ontop of her base move power, she starts looking pretty nice, albiet reliant on getting her counter up- the 40% reduction is pretty stable though. And Miko sounded outright OP, so it's a good character to have a synergy with.
Shou... eh... she relies entirely on having synergies :/ They're pretty strong synergies (Byakuren's Sutras, +24% Atk/Mag and/or Def/Mnd with rinno/nazrin). Might be useful with them up? I wouldn't use her. Her base stats are pretty solid though (Very bulky), so with her synergies, maybe she can get somewhere... it feels like there's probably better options though. If you can keep her in the front alive long enough, Bishamonten's Rage counter doesn't seem to have a limit, so there might be some potential there? (Marisa's is easier to make use of though...) And Light of Dharma is a decent passive. She just doesn't have very compelling skills to use or all that much base attack unless Rinnosuke is out. Eh.
As for the unreleased ones (other than Miko), Tokiko is... huh. She has a large variety of mildly nice effects, but do they build up into enough to use a character off of? Maybe??? And Koishi's skillset mostly revolved around Evasion, without any particularly nice passives or attacks... her main highlight is just that she makes the Earth Spirits family skill look really strong at +24% all base stats with NO extra members on front, just from Proof of Kinship from the corridor.
It's worth considering we have no idea what any of the plus disk characters get for Infinite Corridor skills, though, especially notable considering they'll get them not that long after they're recruitable... or in 4~5 of their cases, -before- they're recruitable, it seems >.>
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I just looked it up and they were in the rev.C text dump. I didn't list them at first because I was reading off a hacked save instead, but here they are now:
True Bishamonten's Rage
When skill holder moves to the back row, Bishamonten's Wrath counter will not decrease.
Bake-Tanuki's Wisdom
When skill holder performs a normal attack, increase Bake-Tankui's Wisdom counter by 1.
This effect increases damage by (Bake-tanuki's Wisdom counter*8)%,
and reduces damage by (Bake-tanuki's Wisdom counter*4)%.
The counter will be removed if the skill holder moves to the back, and has a cap of 5.
Seeking the Dragon in its Cave (this apparently is the name of a dungeon or mission or something in Genso Wanderer. It's a translated game but I can't find any info on its English names as such, so someone has to fill in here)
When the skill holder has learned both "Ritual Plate Offering to Mikoto Nigihayahi" and
"Ritual Plate Offering to Okami Omononushi", both skills will take effect.
[I think there's a missing name here. It definitely looks like Miko's skill]
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.
Embryo's Dream
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.
Super-responsive Senses +
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.
Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.
Tokiko's Humane Reading Fist (alt. Tokiko Ujou Dokushuu Ken)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.
Akyuu Libra
Allows the exact details of enemies' elemental and status defense to be seen in battle.
Koishi looks actually pretty fun now. I was expecting a counter-based skillset but an evasion-based is fine too I guess.
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Kokoro becomes less awkward to use (oo), Shou's true potential as a bulky attacker surfaces (Although it relies on the battle lasting long enough for the counter to reach a meaningful height...), Futo becomes REALLY GOOD, Miko is still ridiculous, Tokiko becomes notably better even if I'm still not sure if she's worth using or not... well, she looks like she does have potential now to be a worthy character. And Koishi finally gets evasion skills that actually look like they might be interesting to have. Ontop of "evading an attack sets ATB to 10000" on that inf. corridor skill and an occasional double attack, in her original skills any all-target attack to the party increases her EVA by 16%(?) along with her def/mnd and her eva goes up 10% each time she gets hit, so she might work out after all, especially if in a full earth spirits party.
And the final character is for ultimate wiki building power. :V
edit:Okay, if Futo's gonna get that, and I'm already probably using Miko because too good not to, I think I can deal with having to kick out Yuyuko or Shikieiki to cram Futo into my final party... or at least, I'll try it out. (Oh wait, looking at this... I have to kick -both- out. AUGH. I'll try it out when the time comes. I'm okay with this.)
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A question. Is Main Character - Marisa still bugged, and if so, does the jp wiki know about it?
Also, I remember that Mystia's Mysterious Song is meant to heal HP when it cures certain status ailments. Is it still supposed to heal HP upon curing ailments but isn't due to a bug? And again, does the jp wiki know about it?
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A question. Is Main Character - Marisa still bugged, and if so, does the jp wiki know about it?
Also, I remember that Mystia's Mysterious Song is meant to heal HP when it cures certain status ailments. Is it still supposed to heal HP upon curing ailments but isn't due to a bug? And again, does the jp wiki know about it?
No to all of them. EDIT: The MP restore aspect of Main Character Marisa still works, but not the stat buffing aspect.
I reported these on twitter as well.
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Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor. On the upside, it's also one of the least resisted status effects on bosses.) But I suppose once you've got All By Myself (or proof of kinship) and second boosts are available, her just-below-enough stats can all be boosted up to workable levels for a bulky attacker, with Instant Attack making her shine. Even then though, there's "Why not just use Momiji?" (unless you really are using cirno+rumia, which is a reasonable suggestion; rumia kicks butt and Cirno's got irresistable SIL and also fixable defenses. If you have both of those, even Wriggle starts becoming a good tank choice.)
Well, it's really party specific, but with Renko/Aya/Koishi having crazy eva potential in postgame, and Alice getting in there too, I suppose that Mystia's corridor skill "every frontline evasion debuffs all enemy stats" might come in handy. If resistant enemies won't stop buffing themselves, hum.
It really is sort of a chain reaction... Rumia is great, Cirno has considerable options, both makes Mystia viable which makes Cirno more viable, and at this point you can throw in Wriggle and make them -all- look even nicer, and with Wriggle able to stay out and tank she's got better chances of landing Poison and boosting all her own stats and reaping her corridor +25% def/mnd to make her actually a super-wall tank, boosted by her Poison Touch now functioning, etc.
...it's not obvious, but worth reminding that Poison reduces all stats (by 5%?) in Labyrinth 2, which makes Wriggle a slightly more appealing tank option as well. If bosses just stop all being like, star resist grade resistant to it. :T Wriggle is only decent in a full 9 team when that happens, and every single one of her passives becomes irrelevant except for boosting the other team 9 members.
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I dunno if I've said it before, but Team 9 is one of my favorite synergy runs, I've ran it twice and have completely wiped the postgame with them, so I'm looking forward to see how that works come Plus Disk. Reminds me I ought to get my second Team 9 run through postgame to get that ready for Plus Disk (on top of the regular run I'm doing also for Plus Disk).
Hmm... I honestly want to do a fixed party run for LoT2 too, but I dunno if I should do that instead of the normal run I'm doing. Though I'd find that more fun in my opinion, so I think I might random up a party based on roles like I did with my LoT1 run I did (that or a pure random run, that might be a little more fun). Actually I'll go random up a pure random run and post it here, I'm more interested in that than my regular run honestly.
EDIT: OH BOY
Alice
Wriggle
Remilia
Momiji
Kogasa
Ran
Nitori Mystia
Hina
Patchouli
Mokou
Utsuho
Yuuka
Personally I don't want Nitori just because she's busted, so I might replace her with someone else, Hina is pretty powerful too but she requires a bit more setup so eeeh she's fine.
EDIT2: Rerolled Nitori and got Mystia, this is fine. The only problem I see with this party is there's a severe lack of healing, so thaaat's going to be a problem.
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Since no one answered my question earlier about using multiple Genji Gloves to increase the chances of it working, I took it upon myself to do some tests after finally having successfully farmed 3 Genji Gloves.
Tests were done with level 1 aya with 0 bonus stats to attack apart from the genji gloves equipped and other sub equipments used to keep her overall attack around the same between each test (No library/level up stats went to attack). Monsters used were Small Kedama, Kedama and Nut eater from 1F to minimize enemy defense differences. Also only Aya's normal attack was used.
With 1 Genji Glove equipped, only 4 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage
2 Genji Gloves equipped, only 6 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage
3 Genji Gloves equipped, only 5 out of 100 normal attacks did 2x damage
Thus, I think it's safe to assume multiple Genji gloves won't affect the 2x chance.
One thing that was irregular was that even with 1 Genji Glove, rather than just doing 2x damage, I would be doing roughly 3x the normal damage. For instance against Small kedamas, with an average of 250-275 damage on a normal attack, with 2x I'd be doing roughly 800 instead of 500. Same thing happened when equipping 2 Genji Glove and 3 Genji Gloves. Not sure if this is a bug or that when I happened to activate the 2x damage, my normal attack also hit extremely high or something. If someone else wants to confirm or disprove this, feel free to.
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Yeah Genji Glove does 3x damage instead of 2x. It's a bug that's listed on atwiki too.
Re:Wriggle, well from the ailment resist stats I've noted, only Shadow Parsee has star resist in PSN (and everything else actually), though single circle resist is remarkably common and I don't know if Wriggle is up for dealing with that (without Intense Vertigo).
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Wriggle has 112% rate Poison with maxed comet on earth, so single circle... probably isn't so bad? Plus she can actually use her Poison Touch now without it murdering her atb. Might work pretty well! I don't know how high circle resist actually is though. Once corridor kicks in, her defenses will raise significantly, making it easier to stay in for Poison Touch and keep on poisoning.
@Validon, I don't know if you've seen my earlier comments, but once Koishi is recruiting the Earth Spirits team synergy is as strong as Team 9, not to mention all team synergies are notably buffed with Proof of Kinship causing half activation from backrow characters. An interesting situation. That'll also make Team 9 more effective in tandem with the ability to buff up their low base stats via all the new stat increase methods.
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Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor. On the upside, it's also one of the least resisted status effects on bosses.) But I suppose once you've got All By Myself (or proof of kinship) and second boosts are available, her just-below-enough stats can all be boosted up to workable levels for a bulky attacker, with Instant Attack making her shine. Even then though, there's "Why not just use Momiji?" (unless you really are using cirno+rumia, which is a reasonable suggestion; rumia kicks butt and Cirno's got irresistable SIL and also fixable defenses. If you have both of those, even Wriggle starts becoming a good tank choice.)
Cirno having irresistible SIL? Since when does Cirno inflict SIL? Irresistable speed debuffs, yes, but not SIL.
And personally, I wish that Mystia's MP restoring skill could be leveled up to 2 instead of 1, so she could restore 2 MP to the front line via Concentrate. It wouldn't change much about her, but it would grant her more utility as a psuedo-Magician, at least.
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whoops mixed up the terms :V
And that would make her concentrate actually worth investing into, e.g. guardian. For most of the game at least -endgame if you want that you have to go for, like, Sanae, who passively regens the entire front row's mp every turn she takes, apparently. 1mp is... a decent thing on the side I guess, and it helps if you just need THAT ONE MORE MP TO CAST SOMETHING, but generally it's too much time for too little result to care- especially as Mystia has no business sitting around the front concentrating with her low durability.
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And that would make her concentrate actually worth investing into, e.g. guardian. For most of the game at least -endgame if you want that you have to go for, like, Sanae, who passively regens the entire front row's mp every turn she takes, apparently. 1mp is... a decent thing on the side I guess, and it helps if you just need THAT ONE MORE MP TO CAST SOMETHING, but generally it's too much time for too little result to care- especially as Mystia has no business sitting around the front concentrating with her low durability.
True, and I'm honestly surprised that that would make a difference up until end game.
On a related note, I have also wondered why Magician doesn't have Efficient Concentration as well? It would very much play into the whole "mana battery" thing, since reducing the time spent after a Concentrate would help in gaining more MP to use more quickly for everyone.
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It would make sense, yeah, and give an alternative to guardian for people with Grand Incantation or the rare other couple concentration buffs. I'd like Magic Circuit on a support character and efficient concentration would be nice. But I can understand it's guardian's thing.
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So I missed my chance to chime in on stuff, and Serela raised some points that I wanted to talk about so I'll be going through those without quoting everything.
Warrior vs Swordmaster: One point that kept being brought up is the "useful passives of Warrior" that you're losing when you use Swordmaster instead and I have to respectfully disagree. The only useful passives are Tension Up and Mind and Body as One. Enhanced Row Attack is... not that great. I've honestly never been pleased with row attacks. I can't tell you how many times I'd have preferred an all target attack, or a more powerful single target attack. It's nice for those few characters with row attacks but I can't think of any character that have row attacks that would need more spell variety than what Warrior provides other than Chen. Fast Attack is nice to have but you're not losing too much by missing out on it, since you're most likely starting boss fights by having a sturdy front line to start buffing before you switch in to buff your attackers.
Enhanced Normal Attack sounds purely for random encounters to keep MP consumption low. I haven't personally used this at all so I could be wrong but in a boss fight, I probably don't ever want to use Attack over a Spell. Maybe it would work on someone with really good base stats, by turning Attack into a cheap Physical Spell with okay delay. Or maybe it'd work with Overheating characters but the skill description says offensive ability so Attack might not count? Not an area I've explored honestly since I wasn't enticed at all by Oku or Nitori but as I'm writing this, I'm realizing that I might have wrote off Enhanced Normal Attack too quickly.
As for Tension Up and Mind and Body as One, only Tension Up has universal use while Mind and Body as One is more for switch in, switch out attackers. So I honestly don't think you're giving up too much from Warrior to Swordmaster.
Satori's HP skill: I'm not feeling it, Reisen's spell would cost 6MP each time she casts it so I can't really see Satori getting too many casts off before her MP runs dry. I guess Small MP Recovery helps with that, along with Plus Disk levels of stat inflation but HP would have have to scale REALLY high or MP recovery for Satori would have to be REALLY good for this gimmick to work. Otherwise, any straightforward attacker would probably deal as much damage without the effort needed to have Satori and Reisen out in front. Using Chen for this would give it more potential but not much more because despite the difference in delay between Grand Patriot's Elixir and Flight of Idaten only being 3%, Satori is a horrendously slow character. I also wouldn't want the trouble of getting Chen and HP built Satori together on the frontline, because since its based on Satori's current HP, she doesn't want to take hits and if she's taking hits, then you'd want a fast healer like Minoriko on the frontline too. All this just makes it sound like the HP thing is just nice bonus damage instead of something to be capitalized on. Who knows, maybe equips and scaling will make Satori's HP, SPD, MP and MP recovery decent enough for this to work.
Regarding healing up large amounts of HP: So my Komachi has 100k HP and my Minoriko with no level up bonuses in MAG, +10 MAG gems, MAG Boost Skill Level 5, passive MAG boost from being Magician subclass, comparable library levels in MAG compared to her actual level and entirely defensive equipment set up, is healing a good 40k with only an 8% buff to her MAG from her Ability to Control Harvests passive. She heals for 80k after getting 80% MAG buffs. Sweet Potato Room is insane. Unless HP scales way faster than MAG does, she doesn't need any investment into MAG to heal for huge amounts. Even if HP scaling is faster, Minoriko is a fast leveler so she should still be able to heal for large amounts. If you're not running Sanae, Renko, or Byakuren, then yeah I guess its not realistic to expect Minoriko's MAG to be buffed but otherwise, she can heal plenty.
Minoriko and Wriggle: I think you're vastly over valuing her Infinite Corridor regen skill. I'm pretty sure in any serious boss fight, Minoriko is going to get way more than 25 turns and after that point, the passive is useless. Unless I'm misunderstanding the skill.
Herbalist would be an excellent choice for Minoriko; she's fast and she doesn't always need to throw around healing or DEF/MND buffs so she'll have free turns to do Herbalist things. But speaking of free turns, Wriggle has a TON of those. She's the perfect fit for Herbalist since aside from keeping up Poison if the boss is susceptible to it or switching characters around, she can use her turns to make use of Herbalist spells.
And I don't know why Wriggle is getting a bad rap as a tank, she has the second tankiest character on my team behind Komachi. With excellent Ailment Resistances, she's free to focus equips on buffing DEF, MND and fixing her Elemental Resistances. Even if I take off Divine Barrier, she still has the highest DEF and MND stats of the party and everyone that's supposed to take hits has the same library levels, with similar focuses on having well rounded resistances.
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I'm pretty sure you're reading Minoriko's skill wrong. It means that it can regenerate over her max HP, up to 50% more, not that "it can only generate 150% of her maxHP over an entire battle". (Also plus seems to have toned down the "really high defense" part of the product version significantly, and all the boss battles in the trial are pretty fast paced, so I doubt anyone can reach 25 turns there)
Also for Overheat, even without Enhanced Normal Attack, normal attacks will accumulate Overheat counter and benefit from the damage bonus. It will still cost 0 MP to use (1 with enhanced or area). Truly uncontainable.
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Warrior vs Swordmaster: One point that kept being brought up is the "useful passives of Warrior" that you're losing when you use Swordmaster instead and I have to respectfully disagree. too much from Warrior to Swordmaster
Enhanced Normal Attack is only worth caring about on a couple characters, it's true. (Iku, Mamizou, perhaps overheaters as it DOES work, Flan for randoms sometimes) Similarly, Row Attack is only worth caring about on a few characters, but you seem to have underestimated it, so I'll cover that too-
Orin and Ran's (and arguably Yuyuko's) -best attacks- are already their row attacks. Giving them warrior effectively increases their damage output by 30% flat, before accounting for the ATK buff. It also brings Kogasa's and Alice's (now that she ignores 40% mnd/def-it's not even a corridor skill!) up to par as a "best attack", and makes attack-Komachi's significantly more potent of an option versus spirit-resistant bosses (of which there's plenty...). Hina and Yukari certainly aren't always using their gimmick attacks and their next bests are easily their row skills.
And 30% damage is quite a nice chunk to have... ontop of Tension Up. So yeah. Enhanced Row Attack is very useful on many characters. I included magic-users in here because it's pretty much the same with the magic class, even if it has arguably more useful damage skills. (Sorceror's row enhance also lets Penetrator become strong enough to use as a legit damaging skill, but not quite as much in Archmage- for elemental roulette maybe, barely...)
Past those character-specific cases, I'd say Tension Up is a -very- useful skill. Yes, I have lots of buffers. However, I'm not buffing them every turn. Tension Up effectively makes their buffs decay MUCH slower, which translates into a non-trivial amount of extra damage that easily beats out the extra base stats on swordmaster/archmage. Yuuka can go without, but most people with passive buff upkeep only want it more because it practically makes them self-sufficient; majesty+tension up means 14% passive buffs and if you have a strategist out I believe that sets you up for permanent +100% buffs.
And since Tension up applies the buff WHEN you take your next turn, not on the attack, you ACTUALLY end up with higher buffs. Instead of being at 80% when you take the first turn after having been buffed to 100%, you have 88%- or 94% with majesty, for example, or flat-out 100 instead of 84%(?) via strategist. And you have more much buffs the second and third time as well, after which you're liable to be looking at getting rebuffed to keep everything high and top off the offense again.
So yeah, I highly value Tension Up.
Minoriko and Wriggle: I think you're vastly over valuing her Infinite Corridor regen skill. I'm pretty sure in any serious boss fight, Minoriko is going to get way more than 25 turns and after that point, the passive is useless. Unless I'm misunderstanding the skill.
What? No. Healing up to 150% doesn't mean after 150% is regened over the battle she stops regenerating. It means she can Hourai Elixir herself slowly. Not the most amazing, but it earns you extra HP when the boss isn't using alltarget attacks (or targetting Minoriko's high mind). If you think I'm overvaluing it, well, people seem to REALLY love Komachi as an HP tank. I haven't tried it personally, but apparently max hp + regen = insane?
Minoriko's max HP isn't as compelling as Komachi but she totals +16% base regen instead of 10% and hp tweaking is surprisingly effective postgame to fix hers, her regen overheals some, is notably faster than Komachi to regen more, and boasts intense hp/mp recovery abilities (Desire to Rest, Emergency Recovery/Charge and her boosted Owotoshi Harvester) and passively buffs the front's MAG.
And most importantly, she actually has a fairly high MND. That's what actually makes this work. Really, she only needs the cushion and big recovery versus defense-targetting attacks. It depends how hard you go in on stat balance with equip/levels on HP versus MND, but that'll depend on the layout of the boss you're fighting- mostly magic, you'll dump your levels in mind, vice versa, etc.
This was also part of the idea behind Satori; if she's an enhancer she can keep her own HP going while supporting or damagerushing. (Also, I think you can easily get Satori 50~60+ max mp with second boost and high levels and most people don't super need those MP gems, and instant attackers let her really abuse small mp recovery, but in any case that gimmick is highly dependant on hp scaling.) She can potentially use normal support skills and deal a halfdecent amount of damage and just damage burst sometimes, but, we'll really just have to see how damage vs hp scales to tell whether it's worth caring about. She might be better off pairing with the full Earth Spirits team and continuing to copy people's attack skills if she wants damage, since that team skill will be OP endgame.
(it's nice to hear healing hp tanks isn't so bad, though, and lends more value to keeping Minoriko/Sanae in postgame if you use Komachi or hp-build Renko, etc. It'd be hard if you were just using Reimu/Maribel/maybe even Rumia) (HP Build Renko has serious potential tho because maintennance+easygoing+12% hp regen with Maribel.)
And I don't know why Wriggle is getting a bad rap as a tank, she has the second tankiest character on my team behind Komachi. With excellent Ailment Resistances, she's free to focus equips on buffing DEF, MND and fixing her Elemental Resistances. Even if I take off Divine Barrier, she still has the highest DEF and MND stats of the party and everyone that's supposed to take hits has the same library levels, with similar focuses on having well rounded resistances.
I'm just looking at base stats. Wriggle has good levels and cheap library, which definitely helps, but her base is only 8.8. Theoretically a -ton- of people can be tankier than this. NOW, YES, those are not half bad stats at all and you can totally do some tanking, but they're not particularly good either. Once you add in Team 9 bonuses it gets better, though. In postgame with either All By Myself or Proof of Kinship it gets a -lot- better, and +25% with poison on makes her potentially -amazing-, though. Poison Touch functioning helps a bit as well to help keep poison actually up.
I don't really have to worry about "Equipping for resistances" anyway since stuff like War Mask of the Butcher does both and I try to give tanks a Star of Elendil for all that sweet elemental affinity. Wriggle's ailment resistance is definitely an upside though- give her a tome of ailment resistance and she's nigh-immune across the board.
edit:ORIN and ran's best attacks are row attacks. ORIN. NOT CHEN. AUUUUG HCATGIRLS
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"I can't think of any character that have row attacks that would need more spell variety than what Warrior provides other than Chen"
Of the ATK based row attack users you mentioned, only Orin would want more spell variety than what Warrior provides. Kogasa would be perfectly content with Warrior's added spell variety and would have no need for Swordmaster's stuff.
I only considered the physical side of things since I don't remember what Archmage brings. Now that Alice ignores 40% MND, I might actually be able to use Hanged Hourai Dolls. But back on the whole useful passives versus spell variety thing, neither Alice nor Yuyuko would need any more spell variety than what Sorcerer provides. Alice and Yuyuko get WND with Penetrator and Yuyuko gets MYS with Aspiration Surge. I actually can't think of very many characters that might currently use Sorcerer but would benefit more from Archmage other than Yuuka.
As for Minoriko's thing, I'll need to go back and look for it. I'm not doubting that the regen is much better than I thought, but I need to see why I thought it was as bad as I did.
Also, Tension Up and Magic Beating applies after you attack according to the in game descriptions.
For Wriggle, I was mainly concerned about fixing her terrible resistances against FIR and CLD attacks, thus Divine Barrier works wonders for me. Yes for tanks, they get Star of Elendil or Grand Master Breaker Titles, but because of Wriggles Ailment Resistances, she can afford a slot thats more focused on boosting Elemental Resistance.
And after looking for the exact wording of the translated skill:
Minoriko
Myraid Goddess of Good Harvest (1*75): Using either Sweet Potato Room or Owatoshi Harvest will also activate the effect of the other spell (treated as Lv1).
Protection of Plants (1*40): Regenerates HP at 6% per turn. This effect can regenerate HP up to 150% of the character's MaxHP.
... I think I see where I got the idea from.
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And after looking for the exact wording of the translated skill:... I think I see where I got the idea from.
Yeah sorry about that. It's simultaneously stressful and exciting to go through that list, ya know? For when the actual translation starts, it'll probably end up something like:
Protection of Plants
Regenerate 6% HP per turn.
This regenerative effect can exceed the user's maximum HP.
This skill can regenerate up to 150% of user's maximum HP.
Actually now that I look at it, it's the original wording that's also ambiguous :ohdear: But I think the "can regenerate to an upper limit of 150% HP" makes much more sense than "total regeneration done by the skill cannot exceed 150% of HP". We'll see when the actual skill comes out I guess.
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Oooh, I see. I misunderstood the statement about spell variety. That makes sense, then. Whoops!
Yuuka is indeed the most well suited character for Archmage, given that she doesn't need the extra buffing to hit maxes; however, she's actually also the most well suited to Swordmaster... keep in mind she has 15.6 base attack and 14.0 base magic. Moon Shadow Flash is only slightly worse in power and about equal in speed compared to Flower Shot and extra attack could make the mp effect relevant, but more importantly, Explosive Flame Sword is much stronger than any of Yuuka's skills, and there's still Samidare Slash for variety and AoE. Yuuka's main downfall apart from her slow leveling and expensive library holding her stats back, is that her innate spells don't carry good formulas for a nuker, and Sorceror's are only a teensy bit better... and Warrior limited her exclusively to Explosive Flame Sword unless you counted swapping between Warrior and Monk. Swordmaster gives her enough variety to actually be a worthy choice. Her innate skillset really isn't that compelling... meh power, mono-elemental and the alltarget's effects are only relevant if you get multiple Extra Attack triggers.
Archmage can give her a hefty dose of variety and Execution for a strong attack choice, but even with her strange version of grand incantation (where concentrate guarantees extra attack procs) the delay is rather painful unless she's getting swapped right after. Still a worthy choice, especially if you wish to keep her original moveset (and it does give superior elemental coverage) but Swordmaster might be even better. Either works well. Or then, if you consider the one-person-only subclasses... combining Yuuka's doubly high base atk/mag with them and her Extra Attack might lead to interesting results... we'll need more info about their moves to really tell much though.
Meanwhile, talking about Alice, Tripwire also becomes a lot more useful because originally the only reason it was more for status effects than damage is the high mind influence. Suddenly, that's less of a problem; heavy status -and- nice damage... and you've got moves like Return Inanimateness for high defense opponents. Mix with her evasion and decent bulk and... jeez Alice, the only thing about you that isn't wonderful is how much Marisa boosts you to where you "take up" two party slots instead of one. That being said, still a good character without Marisa, but since +30% mag works with Marisa in the back, it's too deliciously easy to pass up on...
edit:Huh... amusingly it occurs to me Mokou's generally better off using Explosive Flame Sword over her own innate skills to take advantage of Blazing. It's 1.36x stronger than Flying Phoenix, only a lil' slower.. better at piercing def. Fujiyama Volcano is a bit stronger of course but delay/cost is ow. Of course, I generally see Mokou used as a tank, but the nuker who just won't go down sounds pretty pleasing, doesn't it?
edit again:Okay, I tested Tension Up, the wiki description is different from ingame and it works according to the ingame description, not the wiki one. It triggers as soon as you attack. Huh, I wonder if Orin/Sakuya get multiple triggers then? -Delicious-. Time to test. edit:YES THEY DO. I don't think it'll work on Monk's though, but it works with Tension Up and it's magic counterpart. Very useful for Sakuya/Orin; Warrior subclass on them for sure.
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Well, Monk's Fire Bird does almost as much DoT as Explosive Flaming Swords anyways, in exchange to having a different element and FAST DASH (which I rely on so much for randoms). Iunno; I wouldn't swap my Mokou's class anyhow.
Although she really isn't very special on the "hit bosses for damage" department unless they're weak to FIR. Which is why I'm kind of excited about what Koishi is like; if Ember of Loves is strong enough (and she doesn't have Chen-like defenses), she might be able to replace Mokou on my team. Then again Imperishable Shooting looks like a really good damage boosting skill so... Iunno. I'll see when I get there I guess.
And while I'm not really surprised, NG+ on the trial version doesn't let you start with the plus disk characters. A shame.
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https://www.axfc.net/u/3747034
Labyrinth of Touhou 2 Plus Disk Web Trial Rev.E released. Unlike up to Rev.D', Rev.E's save data will NOT be able to be inherited by the full version! Before you play Version E, Make sure that you keep a copy of your save file!
In Rev.E, the automatically generated dungeon "Endless Corridor" has been added. Even though it's called endless, in the trial version you can only go up to 31F. After you clear 31F it will just continue looping at 31F.
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I'll post about experiences with endless corridor here:
-After you clear the event on the B4F hole, the dungeon is unlocked, but you do not enter it through the hole; rather you enter it from a new option in gensokyo menu: http://puu.sh/szurj/2fb9213d29.png (http://puu.sh/szurj/2fb9213d29.png)
-The dungeons are randomly generated every time you enter, and they're generally like NetHack's maze levels consist of twisty corridors, although I did once encounter a 3-tile wide corridor that looks just a little like a room.
-In terms of plot, Reimu and co. could only enter the place because of the protection afforded by Miko's Seven Star seal, so in the dungeon it also poses a cap on how long you can stay in the dungeon for. The top marker starts at "200+0", and acts as a soft cap - by fighting monsters you can increase the right-hand side number, and glowing green icons will add to the left-hand side number. This counter is also consumed for various things in the dungeon. Getting it up is actually very easy since M key still works here (not sure if it's intended or not)
-The middle marker is the durability of the seven-star seal protection, and is a hard cap that I haven't found a way of increasing yet.
-The bottom marker is just the number of floors cleared consecutively.
-The green icons (without a glow) are not chests, but rather items sealed. You can choose to expend a number of the seven star seal counter to unlock them (20 for 1 exclamation mark, doubled for each one thereafter), use an infinity key to unlock them or unseal it by force (haven't encountered the downside of this yet, although it seems that high level chests are converted to low level loot if you do this? maybe?). Occasionally you can unseal one for free. I've found a lot of sub-equips, some infinity gems, and the occasional Tomes of Insight so far.
-The yellow icons are locations where you can choose to spend 20% of your left-hand side number to illuminate an area around it. If your left hand side number is 0 you can illuminate the area for free.
-Green glowing icons increase your seven star seal counter's left-hand side by a bit.
-White glowing icons increase your seven star dust by a bit.
-Green icons with some arrows on it lets you convert some seven star seal into dust (at double rate, and you can use right-hand side counter as well)
-Purple icon with a key gives you an infinity key.
-If you clear every green icon in a floor before clearing it, you get a free infinity gem to go with it.
-After you complete a floor, you will enter a transitory area before you enter the next floor, and the left hand side counter you had at the end of previous floor wlil be converted into "seven star dust" which can be exchanged for various items. You can exchange them for infinity gems, orihalcon, adamantium, and various stat orbs (not gems) and equipment. Strongest one I see here is Machine God Lucifer (sub-equip, all stats+666%, MYS/SPI/DRK/PHY+66) and Tokugawa Statue(main equip, MP+12, TP+12, All stats+1.2) but that requires a whooping 12800 dust.
-You can also get boons that help explore the later floors. Some options are instant MP restore or instant TP restore, or you can get a buff for the next few floors - I've seen boost to ATK/DEF, boost to MAG/MND, boost of SPD, reduce encounter rate, increase battle reward, restore MP at end of battle, chance to not use TP at the end of battle. The magnitude and length seem to be arbitrary. There are four to choose from and you can get one.
-On certain transitory areas (every tenth floor?) there will be a boss guarding the way to the next floor. The first one I found is Shadow Reimu - Abyssal, but it might be random or something. After you defeat the boss you get another Greater Jewel of Awakening. Then, the next time you visit Akyuu, a cutscene will happen, and then you will be able to exchange any extra Greater Jewel of Awakening for any corridor-skill unlocking items (you can't trade away your last one).
-If you leave the dungeon for any reason, when you come back you are forced to start at the floor you left it in. You cannot start from an earlier floor.
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Ooooh, sweet! Thanks for the info! Non-transferable... maybe it's a good thing it's stopping at 31F right now.
But there's one question I don't see answered yet; and that's information about the Jet Black Fragments (and/or infinite corridor skill unlocks which I think were related to gathering those?).
Unsealing by force... doesn't seem to do anything? Is it a battle or just you have no idea what the downside is at all?
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Ooooh, sweet! Thanks for the info! Non-transferable... maybe it's a good thing it's stopping at 31F right now.
But there's one question I don't see answered yet; and that's information about the Jet Black Fragments (and/or infinite corridor skill unlocks which I think were related to gathering those?).
Unsealing by force... doesn't seem to do anything? Is it a battle or just you have no idea what the downside is at all?
I'm pretty sure the infinite corridor skill unlocking items aren't related to black fragments (which are part of the plus disk storyline; all the character shadow bosses drop one). I haven't gotten to see them yet so maybe I just need to explore some more.
And yeah I don't see a downside from unsealing by force yet, except for the fact that the couple of high level icons (with more exclamation marks) that I unsealed by force gave me things that don't seem to be more powerful than what one-exclamation icons give me, while the single level three icon which I spent seal counter on gave me a Paladin Shield.
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That'd make sense. If you don't want to (or can't) deal with real costs you can force it open for something cruddy.
Oooh, so you get them like that... I see. A loooong time ago it was implied they work a different way but either I remember wrong or the info was misguided. Black Fragments increase and decrease all damage done/taken right? If it works universally and you get them for beating bosses, that's convenient.
Of course, that's so that plus scaling works better. I've imagined it's difficult to balance the number bloat with subtraction formulas, especially to the degree of reaching lv600+. But if you decrease all damage taken by a certain amount, you can help lower the gap between tanks and medium-defense characters to avoid a nightmare where either tanks are invincible or attacks murderize any non-tank.
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Weren't the Jet Black Fragments the items that occasionally reduced TP costs? At least, I think that's what those were, there are specific items per character that do the "damage dealt up/taken down" thing that are unrelated to Jet Black Fragments.
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Weren't the Jet Black Fragments the items that occasionally reduced TP costs? At least, I think that's what those were, there are specific items per character that do the "damage dealt up/taken down" thing that are unrelated to Jet Black Fragments.
Those specific items are also what unlocks the skills for them. I believe their description was like "you get one to unlock skills, and get more to raise damage dealt/reduce damage taken by 1% each"
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....well that's why I'm not making sense. I mixed them up :V
BUT YES. I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THOSE CHARACTER-SPECIFIC ONES.
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(http://puu.sh/szCin/ea0571d3ca.png)
So with this system you can actually choose whose item to get, which is pretty nice (I was afraid that it would randomly give out items for random party members, including ones I'm not even using)
EDIT: There are new skills to be found and each character get some generic skills too. Mokou gets a 60 pt skill that lets her keep Fighting Spirit even when switched to the back, Sheer Force, Desperation, and Imperishable Shooting. I have to go out for a doctor's appointment right now; I'll look at all of them later.
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holy shitballs.
...with so many characters, hopefully you can figure out how to hack the number higher and get them all at a better pace than manually XD Although I'd like to ask how the system for getting them at all works! It's nice to know it's manual, though.
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Oh! Just got a lucky floor!! And I don't know the effects :ohdear:
EDIT: Oh! Apparently the money and exp bonus just got higher.
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Yeah, the character specific ones each have their own names, I remember back when Regal translated all the stuff I datamined he didn't translate the names, just gave the general effect. Really good to hear though that you can pick and choose which of those items you can grab, I'm guessing from that it's an equivalent 1 Infinity Gem per item?
On that note, I decided since I actually want to experience the Plus Disk stuff in this lifetime to go back and redo the postgame on my Team 9 savefile (since my original Team 9 file got lost and I redid the game). Got the 12 Shadows down, got the 3 Deformed Bosses down, all that's left are the other three of the big postgame bosses (seems I already took down "C", completely forgot about that), Enhanced Boss Rush, and Ame-no-Murakumo Avatar and I'll be more comfortable doing Plus Disk. By the by, Diva makes the Shadow of Knowledge "not incredible bullshit", screw that fight otherwise.
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I forgot how I did refight shadow of knowledge. Hina+Orin+Mokou+Meiling? I know it was touch.
Maybe I should have brought in Reisen to heavily reduce mys damage, at least for the first flare to make the start easier. Diva does sound like a good idea after you debuff it's speed down. >_>
Diva, what a weird class. At least it does have normal use with the speedup skill. Boss over 9000 atb? Use the speed song and let -everyone- get their turn immediately instead of just the boss. They're normally way faster than your party, after all.
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And I'm done. Funny thing is that there's apparently a bug with active spells, because most of them are given to the wrong character. Only one of them is unaffected (or maybe it was the cause?) As such Nitori should have a spell that I'm not seeing at the moment. It should be the same one I posted back in 15F Page 15 though.
Reimu:
Fantasy Seal -Blink- (10*16): When the user receives a turn, increase Fantasy Seal -Blink- counter by 1. When user is in the front, increase user's all stats by (5*counter)% and all other frontliner's SPD by (3*counter)%. The counter maxes out at SLv.
Barrier Expert (1*50): Add PAR effect with medium accuracy and medium effect to all offensive actions. It stacks with PAR from skills and equipment.
Super Youkai Buster (2*40): Increase Youkai Buster's damage bonus to Youkai. This effect applies to all frontliners.
Marisa:
Hakkoro Charge Mode (1*80): When the user receives a turn or recovers in the back, increase Hakkoro Charge counter by 1. Increase user's damage by (3*counter)%. The counter maxes out at 33, and will not be reduced in battle. [Persumably, it means things like Shredder won't dispel it]
Hakkoro Custom Mode (1*70): Incrase Magic Missile, Asteroid Belt and Master Spark's damage by 15%. This skill will not work if Hakkoro Charge Mode is learned.
Magic Missile Drain (10*7): When Magic Missile successfully inflicts damage to an enemy, recover user's MP by SLv.
Rinnosuke:
Real Original Owner of Ame-no-Murakumo (10*10): But he really was just an owner. Add "slightly debuff all stats" to all offensive actions, and add "slightly buff all stats" to all auxillary actions.
Guts (2*5)
Keine:
Impervious Formation Change (1*50): When the user uses Formation Change to swap a backliner to the front while having at least 1 TP, increase that character's ATB to 9999 and reduce user's TP by 1.
Were-Hakutaku Change (10*7): Increase user's all base stats by (SLv*1). [All base stats increase is equivalent of 0.1 growth rate.]
Ability to Create History (3*25): Increase History Accumulation's maximum stack by SLv.
Momiji:
Wolf Tengu's Sword and Shield (8*16): When the user performs an offensive action, increase user's ATK by (Slv*3)%. When the user uses concentrate or formation change, increase user's DEF and MND by (SLv*3)%.
Youkai Mountain Alliance? (2*25): Synergy for Aya, Momiji, Nitori and Hina at (Slv*7)% per member
Encounter with a Strong Foe (1*10)
Youmu:
Asura's Blood (1*75): Increase user's damage as HP goes down. The bonus increases as user's HP decreases, up to a maximum of 110%.
Silence like Nirvana (3*50): When the user receives fatal damage while having "Swordmaster's Spirit" buff, (Slv*33)% chance to remove the buff and reduce the user's TP by 10 to survive by 1 HP.
Hakugyoukurou's Master and Servant (2*25): When Youmu and Yuyuko are either in the frontline or backline, increase skill holder's all stats by (Slv*5)%.
Kogasa:
The Sweet Taste of Others' Terror (1*60): When user receives a turn, slightly recover all frontliner's HP. The HP recovery is increased in proportion to the number of allies or enemies under the effect of Terror. It is also increased in battles which disables fleeing.
Terror Enough to Cause Death (10*10): When attacking an enemy inflicted with Terror using one of Kogasa's spellcards, increase damage by (Slv*10)%. When this effect activates, there is a (SLv*2)% chance of removing the Terror status from the enemy.
Speedy Formation Change (2*5): [The one that affects the switcher, not the switchee]
Rumia:
Great Piercing Attack (1*60): When user has learned Piercing Attack as well, its effect is strengthened. More defense-piercing damage will be inflicted.
All-covering Robe of Darkness (1*60): Moonlight Ray will inflict all status ailments except debuffs. Dark Side of the Moon will inflict debuffs on all stats.
Youkai that Lurks in Darkness (10*10): Incrase evasion by (Slv*8).
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
I'm Fine Even by Myself (1*50): If no character in the party of 12 has learned the skill "Team ⑨", increase user's all stats by 16%.
Cirno:
Avenge the Tomboy (1*70): When user uses a SPD debuff inflicting spell and the debuff fails, inflicts the SPD debuff at 1/5 strength regardless of resistance.
Acrobatic Tomboy Fairy (8*9): Increase user's base SPD by SLv, and evasion by (SLv*4).
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
I'm Fine Even by Myself (1*50): If no character in the party of 12 has learned the skill "Team ⑨", increase user's all stats by 16%.
Minoriko
Myraid Goddess of Good Harvest (1*75): Using either Sweet Potato Room or Owatoshi Harvest will also activate the effect of the other spell (treated as Lv1).
Protection of Plants (8*15): Regenerates HP at (SLv*1)% per turn. This effect can regenerate over the user's Maximum HP, up to 150% of the the user's maximum HP.
Symbol of Good Harvest (2*40): Increase the effect of "Ability to Control Harvests" by further increasing the passive MAG buff by (SLv*4)%.
Komachi
Enma and Shinigami (2*25): When Komachi and Eiki are either in the frontline or backline, increase user's all stats by (Slv*5)%.
Shinigami's Scythe (8*12): Increase Narrow Confines of Avici's damage by ATK multiplied by (SLv*10)%, and increase Short Life Expectancy, Ferriage in the Deep Fog and Scythe that Chooses the Dead's damage by MAG multiplied by (Slv*10)%.
Lazy Shinigami's Motivation (5*10): Increase PAR, HVY and DTH resistance by (SLv*12).
Chen
Shikigami's Multi-accel Attack (1*75): After attacking an enemy, increase user's "Multi-accel Attack" counter by 1. When the user attacks, increase user's ATK by (counter*10)%. When any frontliner other than the user acts, remove the counter. Multi-accel Counter maxes out at 5.
Bakeneko that's Too Fast for One's Eyes (10*6): Increase evasion by (SLv*6).
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Nitori
Improved Versatile Machine (1*50): Reduce the delay of Portable Versatile Machine.
Youkai Mountain Alliance? (2*25): Synergy for Aya, Momiji, Nitori and Hina at (Slv*7)% per member
???
Parsee
Jealousy Bomber (1*40): Large Box and Small Box will inflict high damage more often.
Green Eyed Monster (1*80): Increase the effect of user's all debuff and status infliction by 50%.
Final Blow of Jealousy (1*66): Doubles the effect of Final Blow.
Wriggle
Swarm of Shining Bugs (1*50): Increase user's DEF/MND by 25% when any ally or enemy is inflicted with PSN.
Nightbug Carnival (1*40): Greatly increase the damage of Nightbug Tornado on enemies inflicted with PSN.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
I'm Fine Even by Myself (1*50): If no character in the party of 12 has learned the skill "Team ⑨", increase user's all stats by 16%.
Kaguya
Power of Moon Princess Hiding in Earth (1*50): When user is in the front, all other frontliners can ignore 25% of enemies' defense.
Lunar Ilmenite (5*20): Rarely, when user receives a turn, restore all of user's MP.
Five Impossible Requests (1*75): When user uses a personal spellcard, increase Five Impossible Requests counter by 1. When user attacks while Five Impossible Requests counter is at 5, remove the counters and increase user's damage by 75%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Mokou
Continued Spirit (1*60): Fighting Spirit will not disppear when the user switches to the back, but rather be reduce by 1 level.
Sheer Force (1*15)
Desperation (2*5)
Imperishable Shooting (1*80): Increase user's ATK as TP goes down. For every TP consumed, increase ATK by 1%.
Aya
Proof of the Fastest (1*80): For every attack evaded, increase "Proof of the Fastest" counter by 1. Increase user's SPD by (counter*4)% and damage by (counter*15)%. The counter caps at 5. It will not disappear from being switched out or damaged, and will continue for the rest of the battle.
Watchful Eye of the Crow Tengu (4*15): Increase skill holder's Evasion by 10. [actually SLv*10]
Youkai Mountain Alliance? (2*25): Synergy for Aya, Momiji, Nitori and Hina at (Slv*7)% per member
Mystia
Intense Sight Narrowing (1*66): When user is in the front, increase all frontliner's evasion by 20%. When an attack is evaded by any frontliner while user is in the front, reduce the attacking enemy's all stats slightly. This will succeed regardless of the enemy's debuff resistance.
Deaf to all but the Song (1*66): Strengthen Silent Singing Voice's effect, so that even a single enemy or ally inflicted with SIL will activate Silent Singing Voice counter to Lv6.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
I'm Fine Even by Myself (1*50): If no character in the party of 12 has learned the skill "Team ⑨", increase user's all stats by 16%.
Kasen
Adversity+ (2*25): Further increase Adversity's damage bonus by (Slv*10)%.
Healthy Mind and Body (1*70): When the user is not under the effect of any status ailments, increase ATK, DEF, MAG and MND by 10%.
Four Devas of Mt. Ooe? (2*25): Synergy for Kasen, Yuugi and Suika at (Slv*7)% per member
Summon Dragon and Tiger (5*25): MP Cost 8 / Target self / SPI / Auxillary / Summons a pet dragon and Tiger, granting the user the effects "Tiger of the Front" and "Dragon of the AnusRear". Tiger of the Front will double damage 25% of the time, and Dragon of the Rear will reduce damage by 25%. Both effects have a chance of disappearing when they activate.
Nazrin
Extra Attack (2*12): [So I wasn't hallucinating when I saw it in RevC...]
Efficient Formation Change (2*5): [The version which affects the switchee rather than the switcher]
Wisdom of the Tiny Clever General (33*4): When attacking an enemy, there's a (Slv)% chance that the damage is increased by 100%.
Hina
Sorrowful Exiled Doll (1*50): When the user receives a turn while there are allies under the effect of status ailments, halve the effects of all ailments affecting allies.
Youkai Mountain Alliance? (2*25): Synergy for Aya, Momiji, Nitori and Hina at (Slv*7)% per member
Cursed Hina Dolls (1*120): When attacking with Hina's personal spellcards, increase damage on enemies inflicted with debuffs. The damage increase is in proportion with the strength of debuffs on the enemy.
Orin
Vengeful Cat Spirit's Erratic Steps (1*120): Increase the activation rate of Extra Attack.
Rekindling of Dead Ashes (1*66): When attacking, ignore 30% of target's defenses.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Okuu
Self Tokamak (1*88): Ignore the MP increase effect of Overheating. Also removes the DEF/MND/SPD debuffing effect of Uncontained Nuclear Reaction.
High Blazing (5*12): When under the effect of Fighting Spirit, increase user's FIR-elemental damage by (Fighting Spirit Lv * SLv)%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Satori
Extra Experiences of Trauma (1*70): When user receives a turn, inflict fixed damage equal to (user's current HP/2) to all enemies. This effect will never kill any enemies.
Terrifying Hypnotism (3*40): Further increase Trauma Recollection's damage bonus when hitting a weakness by (Slv*12)%. This effect only applies to the user.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Yuugi
Dreadful Raging Waves (1*40): When the user receives a turn while there are allies with full HP, increase those character's ATK and DEF slightly.
Ability to Cause Supernatural Phenomenom (2*30): When Yuugi attacks while having full MP, icnrease damage inflicted by (SLv*15)%.
Last Fortress+ (1*50): Double the effect of Last Fortress.
Four Devas of Mt. Ooe? (2*25): Synergy for Kasen, Yuugi and Suika at (Slv*7)% per member
Meiling
Roc-Killing Fist (1*70): Rarely when attacked by an enemy, make a counterattack with irresistable PAR. The activation rate is increased in consumerate with the number of SDM Residents in front.
Spiral Light Step (1*45): Reduce damage from enemies by 10%.
Chinese Girl's Super Qigong (1*70): Double Chinese Girl's Qigong's damage bonus.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Alice
Precision Operation Doll (8*15): When attacking an enemy, user the lower of the enemy's DEF and MND (Slv*10)% of the time.
Emergency Treatment Doll (1*50): When user receives a turn, recover HP by (user's MaxHP - user's Current HP) / 5.
Additional Doll Guard (1*60): Increase Doll Guard's effect by increasing the user's evasion by (SLv*32).
Patchouli
Infinite Repertoire of Great Library (1*50): When using a skill, reduce MP cost by half.
Asthma Relieving Medicine (2*35): Increase base HP by (SLv*10).
High Speed Aria (5*20): When using a Patchouli-specific spell, halve the delay (SLv*12)% of the time.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Eirin
Eirin's Special Super-Durable Medicine (10*10): Increase all elemental affinity by SLv*6, and all status resistance by SLv*4.
Wisdom of the Sage of Moon (10*8): When attacking an enemy inflicted with PSN, PAR or SIL using Mercury Sea or Omoikane Device, increase damage by (SLv*10)%.
Pharmacist's Fatal Poison Mixing (1*56): Further increase Pharmacist's Poison Mixing's SIL [sic] effect.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Reisen
Red Eyes of Sun and Storms (1*50): If the user has learned People of the Moon as well, completely ignore enemy MND 25% of the time when attacking.
Enhanced Broad Mind Modulation (1*60): Increase the MND debuffing effect of Broad Mind Modulation.
Magnificent Vertigo (1*80): Increase the resistance lowering effect of Intense Vertigo.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Sanae
Miracle of Fafrotskies (1*60): When user receives a turn, recover MP for all frontliner slightly. For every frontliner with 50% or less MP, increase amount of recovery.
Sacrificing Shrine Maiden (1*40): When Last Wish activates, all backliner also receives half of its effect, and Moriya's Protection's activation rate is increased.
Super Youkai Buster (2*40): Increase Youkai Buster's damage bonus to Youkai. This effect applies to all frontliners.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Iku
Magic Counter+ (1*80): Increase the power of Magic Counter's counterattack.
Thunder in the Abstruse Clouds (1*40): Increase PAR resistance by 128. When the user takes a turn, removes PAR from all frontliners, and for each character affected this way, increase both user and that character's all stats by 20%.
Orb of the Five-Clawed Dragon (3*66): Increase base MAG by (Slv*8).
Suika
Earth Spirits -Gathering- (1*40): When the user takes a turn, any frontliner with full HP will receive a slight MAG and MND buff.
Pandemonium of Dissipating Rain (4*30): When the user attacks while having full HP, increase damage by (Slv*5)%.
Four Devas of Mt. Ooe? (2*25): Synergy for Kasen, Yuugi and Suika at (Slv*7)% per member
Ran
Wizard Fox's Thoughts (10*6): Increase maximum MP by (Slv*1).
Kokkuri-san's Contract (4*40): If Super-hard Fast Arithmetic is learned, there's a (SLv)% chance that Banquet of 12 General Gods and Eight Million Holy Boards will not halve its effect on backliners. [That's uselessly low. I think it's actually SLv*10%, but someone will have to test it out later]
Fried Tofu Power Up (5*10): Increase all base stats by (Slv*2).
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Remilia
Vampire Attack (1*50): When user attacks an enemy, recover user's HP by 8%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Piercing Attack (2*5)
Bad Lady Scramble (5*25): MP Cost 5 / Targets all enemies / DRK / Direct Attack / Accuracy+0 / DRK-elemental attack that hits all enemies. Its power isn't anything to write home about; rather, its biggest draw is giving Remilia an all-targetting spell.
Sakuya
Jack the Ripper's Silver Knife (1*60): When user receives a turn, increase "Jack the Ripper" counter by 1. When attacking, increase damage by (counter*5)%. When taking damage, the counter amount is halved. The counter caps at 20.
Sakuya's World (1*128): Increase the PAR effects of Private Square. Additionally, when user is in the front, resistance ignornace PAR attacks may be nullifieid.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Kanako
Divine Authority (5*25): When using Mad Dance on Medoteko, increase Onbashira counter by 1. User receives a damage bonus of (counter*10)%, and reduces all damage taken by (counter*5)%. The counter caps at (Slv). The effect does not disappear until the battle ends.
Majesty+ (3*20): Further Increase Majesty's self-buffing effect by (SLv)%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Suwako
Kero Kero Hibernation (5*30): When the user recovers in the back, increase Kero Kero Hibernation counter by 1. Increase user's damage by (counter*20)%. The counter maxes at SLv. When the user performs any offensive action, remove the counter.
Chytrid Resistance (10*8): Increase all status resistance by (SLv*5).
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Tenshi
More Enduring Celestial (1*60): At the start of each battle, grants the user a +30% buff on DEF and MND. This effect will activate even if user is in the back, and stacks with Enduring Celestial.
Keypoints of Defense (15*10): When user receives an attack, increase user's DEF and MND by (SLv)%.
Seven Celestial Peaches (4*30): Increase user's base HP by (SLv*7).
Flandre
Restraint of Madness and Destruction (1*60): Ignore Starbow Break, Forbidden Fruit and Laevatein's side-effect 50% of the time.
Vampire Attack (1*50): When user attacks an enemy, recover user's HP by 8%.
Madness Spread (2*40): Increase the effect of "Smoldering Madness" by further increasing the passive ATK buff by (SLv*4)%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Yuyuko
Saigyou Ayakashi's Seal (4*30): Incrase Base HP by (SLv*10).
True Power of Hakugyokurou's Mistress (1*40): Further increase Hakugyokurou's Mistress's effect by increasing the DTH chance reduction by (SLv*30)%.
Majesty+ (3*20): Further Increase Majesty's self-buffing effect by (SLv)%.
Hakugyoukurou's Master and Servant (2*25): When Youmu and Yuyuko are either in the frontline or backline, increase skill holder's all stats by (Slv*5)%.
Yuuka
Dangerous Paraise (1*150): If the user has learned Extra Attack, when the user uses Concentrate, the next offensive action will surely activate Extra Attack.
Protection of Plants (8*15): Regenerates HP at (SLv*1)% per turn. This effect can regenerate over the user's Maximum HP, up to 150% of the the user's maximum HP.
Master Spark (5*30): MP Cost 30 / Targets all enemies / MYS / Magic Attack / Super finishing blow stolen by Marisa. Its power is a little different from Marisa's version, but it's still a very strong spell. [somehow this spell escaped the corridor spell shuffling bug...]
Yukari
First Category Perpetual Motion Device (1*70): When the skill holder has buffs, reduce the decaying rate of buffs on the user.
Enhanced Shikigami Usage (1*60): Shikigami "Ran Yakumo+" will receive the same damage bonus from Ran and Chen in the back as if they are in the front.
Strong Boundary Manipulation (2*40): Increase the effect of "Manipulation of Boundaries" by further increasing the passive DEF debuff by (SLv*6)%.
Proof of Kinship (1*100): Synergy skills learned by the user will have half effect for each partner in the back rather than the front.
Byakuren
Sutra - Infinite Mana (3*25): When the user receives a turn, recover the user's MP by (SLv).
Sutra - Perfect Resistance (10*7): Increase user's all elemental affinities by (SLv*6). This skill has no effect if Sutra - Infinite Mana is learned.
Sutra - Enhanced Immunity (10*7): Increase user's all status resistance by (SLv*4). This skill has no effect if Sutra - Infinite Mana or Sutra - Perfect Resistance is learned.
Blood of Superhuman (1*120): When the user is targetted by a healing spell, restore all HP regard of the spell's strength.
Eiki
Ability to tell Black from White (1*80): Cleansed Crystal Mirror's effect will activate even if skill holder is in the backlines. If user is in the front, Rod of Remorse's effect will extend to the whole party, and user will receive double benefit from it.
Enma and Shinigami (2*25): When Komachi and Eiki are either in the frontline or backline, increase user's all stats by (Slv*5)%.
Reversal of Black and White (1*66): When the user concentrates, grants the effect "Reversal of Black and White". While under the effect of "Reversal of Black and White", Last Judgement will be affected by user's MAG rather than ATK, and Trial of the Ten Kings and Wandering Sin will be affected by user's ATK rather than MAG. When the user concentrate while under "Reversal of Black and White", remove the effect.
Super Thankful Preaching (1*40): Further increase Thankful Preaching's SIL effect.
Renko
Starting Point of Assault (1*70): When user inflicts damage on an enemy, also add the effect "Starting Point of Assault". Enemies with this effect takes 25% more damage from allies. This effect is removed when the affected enemy receives a turn.
Enhanced Ability to Read the Stars (1*75): Double the effect of Ability to Read the Stars.
Enhanced Ability to Read the Moon (1*75): Double the effect of Ability to Read the Moon.
Maribel
Vision Sharing (1*150): When the user receives any kind of stat buffs, all frontliners receive buff equal to 1/4 of what the user received. If the user is in the back, the effect is halved. Renko will receive double benefit from this skill.
Berserk Control (10*10): Double the damage of Liberated Abilities (SLv*10)% of the time.
Unnatural Control (10*10): Reduce the HP penalty of Overflowing Unnatural Power.
Shou
True Bishamonten's Wrath (1*60): Bishamonten's Wrath counter will no longer halve when the user moves to the back.
Ability to Gather More Wealth (1*60): Enhance Ability to Gather Wealth by increasing the experience bonus by 2%, and money and item drop rate bonus by 5%. Also, increase Radiant Treasure Gun's reward increase amount by 40%.
Piercing Attack (2*5)
Mamizou
Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki (1*70): When the user uses a normal attack, increase Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter by 1. Increase user's damage dealt by (counter*8)%, and reduce the user's damage intake by (counter*4)%. When the user moves to the back, remove the counter. The counter maxes at 5.
Trickery of Bake-Tanuki (1*50): When the user moves ot the back, instead of removing Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter, reduce it by 1 instead.
Majesty (2*5)
Futo
Seeking the Dragon in its Nest (1*160): When the user has learned both "Ritual Plate Offering to Mikoto Nigihayahi" and "Ritual Plate Offering to Okami Omononushi", both skills will take effect.
Super Agile Eighty Sake Cups (5*24): The user starts each battle with Sake Cup counter at (SLv).
Accelerate (1*10)
Miko
Prince's Lecture (1*144)
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.
Supreme Divinely-Appointed Stateswoman (1*100)
Both effects of Divinely-Appointed Statewoman will always be active.
Tradition of Just Rewards will take on both morphed elements and additional effects.
Mega Asuka Heritage Attack (1*50)
Asuka Heritage Attack's activation condition becomes "when HP is above 50%".
Kokoro
Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks (1*128)
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.
Mask of Hope (1*66)
When the skill holder receives a turn, regenerate HP at 10%.
Continued Spirit (1*60)
Fighting Spirit will not disappear when the skill holder moves to the back,
but will instead lose 1 level.
Tokiko
Tokiko's Thick Book Marital Arts (1*50)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.
[I have no idea how to break this phrase] (http://puu.sh/t7jBa/c0b0c22ebd.png) (1*80)
When the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", "The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance" and
"Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness"'s special effects are further strengthened,
and the spells' power is also increased. When this effecf activates, there is a low chance
that "Reading" effect will disappear.
Book-reading Youkai's Unremarkable Grudge (1*60)
In battle, if Reimu or Marisa is in the back,
"Victim of Reimu and Marisa's brutality" will activate at half strength.
Koishi
Embryo's Dream (1*70)
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.
Super-responsive Senses+ (1*70)
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.
Embryo Dance for Some Reason (1*128)
When evading an attack, the chance of "Embryo's Dream" counter increasing is doubled.
Also, thanks to the "corridor spell shuffling bug":
Miare's Great Knowledge: Mp Cost 11 / Targets all allies / NTR / Auxillary / A support spell that places a "increase next action's damage" boost on all allies.
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Okay, reflection upon that big spoiler poster of all the infinite corridor junk. This is a lot of really powerful stuff even compared to before...
Keine's accumulation of history is going to do insane things to either her offense and/or her defense then >.> Momiji's selfbuff maxing at EIGHT is much more extreme than expected, getting 31% atk buff on hit and 7% to other stats... and Youmu is definitely not crap anymore. Minoriko now -megapumps- the party's magic with a collossal 16% per turn (DAYUM- and Flan gets the reverse) and her regen went up to 18%, so yes, minoriko is useful. Suddenly, Mystia's stat boost from SIL hits lv6 with a single SIL affliction, so she might be getting a pretty significant all-stat buff that way. Nazrin is actually entirely relevant (Team Myouren a go?). Satori gets +36% (+60%) extra damage to weakness over what she had, keeping her offense-build relevant (along with proof of kinship and koishi). Yukari's team nuke is much easier to use which makes team yakumo look pretty interesting- and Chen's pitiful base attack can be fixed up here... oh yeah and she debuffs def by 24% every turn ha
remilia got an alltarget attack rofl, and... yuuka has... master spark... with a guaranteed extra attack passive... dear lord. so much for swordmaster yuuka. Maribel gets double damage on Liberated Abilities (now we're talkin', mari!) and her self-buff hurts much less. And uhh, about that last skill... When you say Targets All Allies, do you mean the frontline, or... EVERYONE? Just wondering because wording and it's apparently on someone already to test. Numbers? S'all we know about Akyuu's moves so far.
And Evasion is all-around more relevant. Plus considering that Avoid Ring main equip that doles out all-buff and all-debuffs when you evade... hmm. (Plus a ton of neat stuff for most other characters. Majesty+... 9% passive buffs is sick and if you sub Monk that's nearly perma-max buffs w/strategist out.)
...oh yeah, and shou's still kind of boring whilst everyone else looks SO EXCITING dear god.
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Unfortnuately I couldn't test the last one because getting a turn with that spell learned crashes the game. I'm pretty positive that it's just target all frontliners though, since that's how every other "Targets All Allies" spell work without Ran's skill modifying it.
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Alright, I'm just used to reading frontliners. Fair 'nuff.
Jeez. All the characters look so good now. That's a great thing, of course, but the decisions. @.@;
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From what I can tell, Bad Lady Scramble is 196-70 (It really isn't anything special) and Master Spark is 400-100, but unlike Marisa's version it doesn't use up all MP for a power boost; it just cost a flat 30 MP. That... actually kind of makes it incredibly cost inefficient, but I guess guaranteed Extra Attack will do wonders to remedy that.
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Yeah, guaranteed extra attack will still work wonders with it. And if you're lucky for MORE extra procs, well, uh...
Bad Lady Scramble still sounds like a great move and even worth using on dark-weak bosses. Nothing special, but for Remi to have any new attack, especially an all-target, is fabulous- she can't even get one of those from Swordmaster, after all. Delay?
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Master Spark's postuse is 0 of course. Bad Lady Scramble is 2800.
On that note, I decided since I actually want to experience the Plus Disk stuff in this lifetime to go back and redo the postgame on my Team 9 savefile (since my original Team 9 file got lost and I redid the game). Got the 12 Shadows down, got the 3 Deformed Bosses down, all that's left are the other three of the big postgame bosses (seems I already took down "C", completely forgot about that), Enhanced Boss Rush, and Ame-no-Murakumo Avatar and I'll be more comfortable doing Plus Disk. By the by, Diva makes the Shadow of Knowledge "not incredible bullshit", screw that fight otherwise.
Just so you know, the basement bosses aren't nearly as tough as some of the main game postgame bosses. You might want to try going there first and see how comfortable you're with them before you do the last few postgame bosses. Even if you don't like the random encounters (which can be super tough when you get multiple "high end" monsters), they give far more rewards than 20F depths and exploring can give you lots of equipment that way surpass anything you can get from the first six pages.
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I did consider doing that Regal... and then I managed everything but the Enhanced Boss Rush and the Ame-no-Murakumo Avatar. Nearly level 200 or so on my party (because lel only four party members so overgrinding is a thing), safe to say I'm more than ready for the Plus Disk, but I figure I might as well finish off the postgame so I can more or less blaze through the Plus Disk stuff without a thought. Also considering grinding to get a second Genji Glove or the Zeus Armor so that I can round out the sub-equip list.
I still believe that synergy runs/fixed runs/drafts are way more fun than playing the game normally, maybe once I actually can get my mind focused on it (since I've been jumping around save files like crazy), I ought to do a draft or something.
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There's a Genji Gloves in a chest somewhere in the basement (don't remember which floor).
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Oh, well in that case I'll try and see if I can't make the Zeus Armor instead then, just gotta get another Dragon Mane, that's gonna be fun.
Besides that, I think for the Plus Disk I'm going to do away with doing a pure synergy run and let in specifically just the Plus Disk characters and Renko and Maribel (those two only because I wanna give them a shot at some point, hopefully thought Maribel's stuff will not be broken by then and they can make use of their own synergy).
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Sealing Club is already fixed. Along with Mysterious Song, Main Character - Marisa, Cooling Down, and Fighting Spirit (did you know that the damage reduction effect apparently didn't work up until today? :ohdear:)
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Oh really? Didn't know Fighting Spirit wasn't working right, but eyyy, that's good to hear for rev. E at least (of course I'm still back on version 1.203 because eyyy but good to know for the future).
(http://puu.sh/sAbmB/3835b343c2.jpg)
Also, right, forgot about this, never mind Zeus Armor will be coming sooner than I thought.
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Sealing Club is already fixed. Along with Mysterious Song, Main Character - Marisa, Cooling Down, and Fighting Spirit (did you know that the damage reduction effect apparently didn't work up until today? :ohdear:)
Fighting Spirit's damage reduction wasn't working? ;______________________; My poor Mokou tank in my first run... and Kasen... (Granted, I didn't have much in the way of debuffs that run so people not named Nitori/Flan couldn't really deal any damage... it didn't -matter- in lot1 D:)
It's very nice to hear all those are already fixed, though, and as such will be functioning properly for-sure as soon as the full release is out as well! Huzzah, I can finally get real use out of Maribel! (Plus her new corridor skills and hearing about lots of buffing bosses make me actually feel like it's a GOOD decision and not a favoritism one...!)
Hurh... Reisen's status resist lowering effect is even stronger after corridor. I wonder how powerful it is at that point... >.> Guardians with sheer force using it's high-accuracy shock skill... or, you know, forcing Hina's high-accuracy debuffs to hit atk/mag/spd etc. I'm using Eirin/Kaguya so putting Reisen in wouldn't be too hard of a decision... (Although if Eirin's overheal breaker doesn't scale too well into endgame she'll be booted)
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Man the endless versions of bosses seem to like to crash the game a lot...
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Welp, it is only a prototype I guess.
So there's bosses in the corridor as well? Is it one per floor or more random?
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They're pretty much random I think; at least they show up in random encounters and sometimes with other enemies. The crashing ones I've encountered are counterparts of Azure Giant (seems to crash because of the second casting of Azure Shining Body) and Taur Magician (no idea what it's trying to cast since the original's AI is more or less random), but I've also seen counterparts of Memorized Knowledge (got OHKO'd by Nitori :V), Ancient Weapon, Giant Tree, and Shub-Niggurath/Black Goddess of Fertility. As far as I can tell they have the same AI as the original, and while they don't have boss-like HP they are much tougher than most other monsters, but they (along with counterparts of high level basement monsters) seem to be able to drop endless corridor specific materials so they're still worth fighting.
EDIT: These endless monsters actually do show up in the bestairy. OK, so everything actually can drop the first three materials, but it seems like only these minibosses can drop the last one - recorded are counterparts of Peta Grain, Giant Tree, some high level basement monsters, Burning Lava Dragon, Shub-Niggurath, and one of those ancient weapons (I didn't let it get a second turn so I don't know what it wants to cast after Concentrate), and the recommended level 32 boss on 3F thing that I can't remember the name of.
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Actually I think there's a boss every 10 floors...
Since I found a boss icon that had a shadow Reimu after 10F that completely destroyed me.
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https://www.axfc.net/u/3747484
There's now a version E' which solves several problems that were in E (like giving skills to the wrong people), as well as allowing save data to carry over to the full plus disk (to rescue the idiots that actually went and overwrote their saves with level 2000+ characters on them without backup). In exchange the exchange rate for both gems and dust went way up, to combat the fact that farming for dusts is WAY easier in trial due to 31F looping (normally, once you advance a floor, there's no takebacks).
With this revised version, a spell that Rinnosuke is supposed to have (after getting the unlocking item) is accessible:
Precise Information / MP Cost 8 / Target All Frontliners / PHY / Auxillary / Heal all frontliners by a precentage of their maxHP. Also, all ailments and debuffs have a 50% chance of being lifted. The precentage of healing is quite low.
Also, it seems that Nitori is no longer going to have the stun gadget spell, but will have this skill instead:
Kappa's Material Aesthetica (1*75): When user is in the front while the battle ends, item drop rate is increased by 20%. If the user defeats an enemy, that enemy's item drop rate is increased by 40%.
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Since all of Rinnosuke's auxillary skills are buffs with his corridor passive, him as an Enchanter might bring Precise Info up to a decent-ish heal... for similar reasons First Aid could become pretty good too, esp. with Atk/Mag high boost maxed. Along with his fast swaps he could try to stand up to Keine as the tanky switcher by virtue of heals and all-buffs instead of Keine's own useful options. We'll see.
Nitori will be the obvious choice for finishing the last hit on a boss with that new skill :V
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Keine Tanky Switch isn't happening yet because switching with that skill learned crashes the game :V
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Sealing Club is already fixed. Along with Mysterious Song, Main Character - Marisa, Cooling Down, and Fighting Spirit (did you know that the damage reduction effect apparently didn't work up until today? :ohdear:)
So Cooling Down won't work if your not on full HP anymore?
Also, how much does Mysterious Song heal for?
With this revised version, a spell that Rinnosuke is supposed to have (after getting the unlocking item) is accessible:
Precise Information / MP Cost 8 / Target All Frontliners / PHY / Auxillary / Heal all frontliners by a precentage of their maxHP. Also, all ailments and debuffs have a 50% chance of being lifted. The precentage of healing is quite low.
...why do I feel like the title of that spell is more suited for Akyuu than Rinnosuke?
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I managed to get to Basement 2 purely by level overpowering, i cant read any spellcard text due to being squares :V
Now that i think more about it, i should start re-configuring my party on the main version so i am ready for plus disk floor exploration, patchy flan and kaguya died to the B1-B2 thrash low level spells that barely tickled remilia and meiling
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Plus disk is up for preorder on melonbooks. So I guess the guy is serious about releasing it at the end of the year.
Of course there's still likely going to be a significant amount of time spent removing bugs before it's decently playable :V
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I managed to get to Basement 2 purely by level overpowering, i cant read any spellcard text due to being squares :V
Now that i think more about it, i should start re-configuring my party on the main version so i am ready for plus disk floor exploration, patchy flan and kaguya died to the B1-B2 thrash low level spells that barely tickled remilia and meiling
To be fair, gamblers will die to basically anything (although it's -heavily- nerfed in plus so other options are pretty tempting now), two of those people have nearly no HP without investment, and if Flan gets hit by an element she's weak to nothing else matters; same with Patchouli and physical things.
Postgame can see all those three reaching more survivable levels after awhile, thankfully. Kaguya has great mind and affinity to work with if her HP is raised (and her def isn't even horrifically low), Patchouli just needs more HP and proof of kinship from the corridor to deal with magic (There's nothing you can do about physicals here...), and Flandre... well... she's got high HP if you can/are willing to equip for and deal with her other issues, granted she's definitely a little bit of a problem child.
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Some other things I found in rev.C's text dump. These are probably Akyuu's normal spells?
Protecting Art of Wisdom: MP Cost 20 / Target Single Ally / FIR / Auxillary / Grants the target "Temporary Invincibility" effect, which nullifies damage from a single enemy attack. If a character receives a turn while under the effect, there's a 40% chance that the effect will disappear.
Guarding Art of Wisdom: MP Cost 10 / Target Single Ally / FIR / Auxillary / Grants the target "Temporary Invulneriability" effect, which nullifies status ailment from a single enemy attack. If a character receives a turn while under the effect, there's a 20% chance that the effect will disappear.
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Probably. With an MP cost of 20, it's a bit much to just throw onto a glass cannon to keep them up. Could be nice for avoiding stuff like Memorized Knowledge's unsurvivable ether flare or some unresistable status effect, but unless I specifically need to have her for a fight like that, I'm not using Akyuu. (Apart from as a wiki replacement occasionally, esp. if wiki data isn't up at the time. That'll be neat- we can have exact numbers on boss entries instead of triangles and circles.)
Thankfully it's easy to swap in characters like that for a single boss by just dumping all of their levelups into HP so that, even with next to no investment, they can take a few hits.
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Just compare the hp value of meiling and everyone else, i shouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, i think i will just hack some tomes of reincarnation and reconfigure my party from the ground up
things like wasting points on meiling attack could be relocated somewhere else
(http://i.imgur.com/C6yU6ML.png)
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uhhhhh.
yeah there's definitely overinvesting in one character XD
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I'm curious how the progression will work out, I'm a bit worried that, if you finish the below basement floors, you will be overlevelled for the above-ground floors. Hopefully you unlock 21F+ only after finishing the basement floors.
I'm pretty sure there was no word about it, so it's unlikely to happen, but I hope they do something with hardmode, anything, even if it's just letting you keep playing in hardmode after the maingame until forever. It felt pretty bad how suddenly that shiny hardmode flag was gone forever after the maingame. Not that hardmode was actually a genuine hardmode, but it was something.
How was the difficulty and reward scaling at the endless corridor by the way? I never touched the trials in details since it's all in moonrunes.
I hope it's not a pushover-area where you can progress without trouble all the time, I like to put in effort to make progress.
On a sidenote, I decided to re-do some character portrait changes to keep it closer to the original, I know no one seemed to be interested in it before, but since I did it anyway, might as well upload it. How are uploads handled here? Is it fine to just drop a link to the download location?
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Well, the issue is, a lot of the postgame fights are very unforgiving about party setup- even after a second playthrough with a party that fared notably better (where most of the postgame wasn't actually that bad this time!) there was still a couple bosses that were utterly dumb (Refight Magatama is the stupidest thing, what the -hell-?) and being in hard mode limits would force you to make a fight-perfect party... because even if you kick people out you really can't overlevel for it.
And that fight-perfect party would still be a goddamn nightmare in Magatama's case. With my much better made party I still struggled for a win at 20 levels over the challenge one- and I'd done all the other fights fine enough at challenge level this run, with a fairly good party for Magatama, all considering- I just didn't have Rumia, who only could've made so much of a difference herself. (my first playthrough took about 40 levels over... forty. And the same for a couple other fights. Fights that were still hard even with the low damage taken. Ugh, regen on tanky bosses that speed up every turn... wtf)
Granted, that fight specifically is more a game design problem than anything else- but several fights in postgame are very cruel to parties that don't fall into fairly specific requirements and would regularly force redesign and frustratingly high difficulty depending on who you wanted to use. And when you have to refight like 12 bosses and there's 3 more right away too, having them all be so difficult... makes them a PITA to do all at once.
It'd just be really unfun for a lot of people, even the kinds that are happy to apply for something like hard mode. And kinda goes against the spirit of ThLaby2 almost explicitly telling you it's a waifu game in some of the achievements :V Yeah you need a well made and balanced party, but there's a lot of attention paid to everyone being really good (And most of the support characters are truly viable offense now, too, with more hybrid-types as well), so yeah, it's a pick-your-waifu sort of game.
tl;dr Hard Mode lifting for postgame saves you from how unforgiving postgame can potentially be, where hard mode restrictions just stop being fun.
Speaking of fun, jeez, the lower section of the Extra Floors in non-plus postgame are really boring, I forgot. zzzzzz. It's 4 big floors with a little treasure and annoying enemies and not really anything else. At least the higher section mixes it up with some gimmicks and doesn't have literally -an entire extra floor after the superboss is found-. XD 13F wasn't so bad anyway since it's a pretty easy layout. 14~15~16F to go before plus release. (Granted, I'll probably wait for at least a partial translation patch...)
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Just to make sure, you are talking about the plus disk postgame stuff, not the base game, right? Because in the base game, I remember being able to punch my way trough with nothing but brute force, including the enhanced last boss. I feel like the earth spirit team was horribly overpowered though to be fair. Or at least Rin is, I actually wish we didn't have synergy skills at all, I only tried that one, maybe the other ones are less OP.. or even more so?
But yeah, the way you describe it, hardmode is just generally poorly designed I guess. I also completely forgot about how my average levels never matched up with the recommended levels in the postgame.
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No, I meant the normal postgame stuff.
But if your average levels never matched the recommended ones, that would be why brute force punched you through :P I'm talking about when you're playing at the challenge levels, which hard mode would restrict you to- as well as the lower library limit.
Also, Proof of Kinship (synergy activates at half power for family members in the back) is only gonna make synergy better... plus Earth Spirits gets another member in postgame. Welp. At that point you face the issue of cramming 4~5 team members into your party of 12 when everyone got new exciting corridor skills and 8 new postgame characters, though. It's hard.
I think synergies were totally balanced at first because the effect is only particularly large if you have more than 2 members out at once, the Earth Spirits team is really not all that durable, SDM gets less per member in exchange for having 5 (and remi/patch weren't even that great of characters to start with), most of 9 team was sorta underwhelming (except rumia) without the passive up, but in postgame a lot of that stuff changes and they get really strong to have around... in exchange for taking up an awful lot of your party composition. They're all good teams.
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More things to consider about the new stuff though is that you have to traverse 120 floors of endless corridor to get all the awakening items for an entire team, which includes 12 bosses to defeat, the first and second of which are already at level 270 something and level 312, and then you have to use about 200-400 skill points to actually get the skills. You're really not going to be taking full advantage of them until the end of plus disk, and until then you'd have to consider who to prioritize getting the skills with as well. Especially since there's no takebacks on which item you get, it would be nasty to find yourself regretting your choice.
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Wait, it takes 10 floors to get one copy of one person's item? :S
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Yes, it does. Like with subclasses, planning will matter. (Especially since you can't go back on your choice without reloading)
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Ooooo-kay. Guess it's a pretty good thing I'm probably not swapping in the full earth spirits team postgame then. My team has lots of useful corridor skills, sure, but it's not integral. >.>
Don't the items stack up to 50? Jeez. That would take forever.
There's an achievement for beating floor... 516? That's 51 items if the progression works the same. I wouldn't be surprised if it changed eventually though. 516 sounds sort of random, after all, as opposed to say, floor 500.
I wonder if there's a special corridor boss for getting ridiculously far in.
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The achievement is 512, which is not a random number at all. You're probably mixing it up with the previous one which is 256.
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Kogasa's 33% damage to TRRed enemies is HUGE. With out the skill, she could only hit the Ame-no-Murakami ver.1 for 1 damage, with 10200~ attack and -50% Def on Murakumo, with 20% dmg buff with Strategist Komachi and all the transcendent skills maxed out. Once I applied the +disk to my game, gave her the 33% skill, sheer force, lv 4 of her dark nuke, I am hitting him in the high 30,000, low 40,000. With the monk 4% buff skill, and her TRRed enemies buff her stats skill, she is hovering around 92% buffs. Plus her bugged 32 mp regent maxing her mp with each concentrate, her durability is insane.
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The thing is, that should be a bonus to final damage, as far as I'm aware... so if she was doing 1, +33% would still be one or two? Maybe it works differently, but was her attack buff just a lot lower?
I could be wrong and it increases the attack factor itself, I suppose, but that would be strange imo.
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The skill description clearly says that it increases damage. And 10200 ATK on -50% Murakumo with A Rainy Night's Ghost Story shouldn't hit 1 regardless since it has a 3.2 to 1 factor and Murakumo has 56k DEF.
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Yeah. The buffs/debuffs must have been different or something.
The skill -should- just be an increase to final damage dealt, not to Kogasa's attack stat, so the attack won't be any better at piercing defense.
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Ehehehehe.... sorry. I was a bit excited, Kogas I'd the underdog on my team, so when she finally got stable damage, I was ecstatic. My Hina and Yuyuko deal better dark damage. Kanako does better CLD, and Kaguya aND Yuka do better NTR. But it was without the buffs and 33% she was doing 1 damage. The buffs shenanegans were an after thought when I saw her low damage with low buffs on. Before +disk, she couldn't peirce Murakumo's defence, but with +disk she could, so I probably attributed the sudden burst of competence with the 33% boost.
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Kogasa's NTR attack definitely isn't that good XD It's just for randoms. If subbed Warrior she doesn't just get the strong FIR attack, though- row attack strengthening also brings her CLD attack up to high power. Still, the Dark one has the best terror effect.
I can understand Kogasa being an underdog and wanting to use her ;_; IMO if you really want Kogasa to work though you want to have someone else with good TRR infliction, though, both so you can swap her in when it lands, and because despite her abilities and Sheer Force, Kogasa's personal fear infliction rates aren't actually terribly high. Kasen, Parsee, and Maribel are all good options with a 100%+ TRR attack... huh, every TRR attack in the game is dark element...
Whenever you face a boss weak to SHK you might consider swapping her to guardian though, as she's one of the best options due to it's high-accuracy SHK skill, possessing Sheer Force and all.
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Just degrated Murakumo ver1 for the first time. I noticed he now LOVE to spam that azure light buff move, sometimes using it three times in a row. Parsee is horrifyingly effective, melting his face of with an almost four hit kill. Enhancer Aya is pretty good, speed buffing attack to max. Still don't know how to use Diva Aya.
Just started post game now! Hina lvl 111. Why Hina? Because Hina has the most average lvling rate in my party. Is the Great "C" rock glitch still a thing in + disk ver E+? Floor 21 now has encounters! Around lvl 210 enemies, scary scary! Boss rush was weirdly easy. After checking the wiki, both wasps are vulnerable instant death with intense veritgo. Some of the other shadows as well.
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One of the wasps is annoying enough to want to instant death, too, if you want to beat it at challenge level. I thought one of them wasn't vulnerable, but maybe it was just a little more resistant and thus more annoying?
I think Diva Aya only works if you throw every bit of stat for her you can into SPD, because she has to move faster than the boss? (Fast enough to be able to concentrate, and then slow dance the boss -again-) I'm not super clear on it though because I think anyone else you want to move also has to outspeed the boss, which is actually kind of a tall order a lot of the time, as most of them are immune to SPD down.
Cirno's irresistable SPD debuff in the corridor will be pretty critical for anyone who wishes to continue abusing Diva Aya in postgame, but as amusing as it is, it's still pretty much just a dirty cheese tactic. I'd use it on something like Memorized Knowledge's Shadow, though- probably isn't even that hard to pull off there and the boss is literally made for tactics like that.
Parsee is a character I keep being surprised I'm not using... her insane MND is awfully nice and all she needs is a bit of extra base HP (first aid kit?) to be one helluva bulky attacker. My first run I thought she was too cheesy, and my second run I guess I just was too interested in other characters (or got tired of Small/Large Box). I suppose she -is- less exciting when I don't have other TRR inflictors like Kasen in my party.
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Both wasps can be instant deathed. The Paralyzing Wasp is easy to do so; the Poison Wasp is listed as having a star resistance, but it actually has just exactly 100 resistance. You can combine Reisen and Yuyuko to get Saigyouji Nirvana to instantly kill it.
(Things I wish I had known my first battle with it... god, that was difficult.)
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Just degrated Murakumo ver1 for the first time. I noticed he now LOVE to spam that azure light buff move, sometimes using it three times in a row. Parsee is horrifyingly effective, melting his face of with an almost four hit kill. Enhancer Aya is pretty good, speed buffing attack to max. Still don't know how to use Diva Aya.
Here you go, this is how you use Diva Aya. (https://youtu.be/K89mE4LnuSk)
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JP wiki confirms that Shou's Bishamonten's Wrath can rise over 100 count, and also notes that it raises your Attack stat, not your damage- a significant difference considering defense matters in this game. This is also true for Chen's new boost skill from the corridor.
She -is- really bulky with her synergy skills, so I suppose she has potential to be an amazing bulky attacker in a long fight. It's just that she really wants to make use of not even one, but up to -three- synergy skills for heavy stat increases (Byakuren for major passive buffs/regen, Nazrin for extra bulk, Rinnosuke for extra damage) and she's sorta underwhelming until the counter goes up, esp. without using the synergies. Her personal attacks are good, but pretty slow. Monk could be a good option for her to give her potential to keep max buffs and speed up her own slowish attacks, along with a little element variety. Swordmaster not quite as much since her personal skills are already strong, although explosive flame sword is always good if you need the element difference. Transcendent never hurts for bulky attackers, but whether it's better than monk is a pretty good question.
Potentially a good candidate for subbing the special subclasses for truly useful new attack moves, if you aim to make her a main attacker or are tackling lategame long-length bosses where Wrath will build up and up. (It doesn't go away on swapout after infinite corridor awakening.)
edit:The jp wiki seems to have filled out evaluations for everyone's infinite corridor skills. It's fun to see how much they agree with me on. :D They talk about how defensive Tenshi becomes but then "...however, it has to be said that she lacks decisive things to do other than being a wall with her enhanced abilities. Most characters with high durability also boast powerful auxillary actions, so just being a wall can't let you compete with the other options." It seems that the abundance of self-buffing bosses might take care of that, though. Even if I commented on her bulky attacker potential, most attackers get notably stronger after the infinite corridor... hmm, but it's possible.
rofl, Yuuka's after concentration, always activate extra attack, currently softlocks the game. It goes into effect immediately, and you enter an infinite concentration loop without end. That's amazing.
edit again:Oh?! Maribel's corridor ability was misunderstood by me! All of the vanguard's stats are increased by a quarter of Maribel's current buffs... not, each buff maribel receives is doled out to the front row at a quarter strength. Ooh, this is notably more interesting. Plus Renko gets double effect... Renko was crazy durable as it is, with this plus a functional Sealing Club, she'll be unstoppable? As an aside note, if you max Unnatural Power and Unnatural Control, the hp loss effect is negated.
Mystia's lv6 boost from inflicting silence on an enemy will be about 30~40% stat increase, from jp testing. That's pretty significant. Combined with her other bonuses, she could finally have the stats to do real work- even be a speedy bulky attacker.
Sakuya's Private Square powers up to 4800 effect from 2800 with her new skills. Combined with steadily rising speed and mp values, this is actually a rather large amount. This could become a rather useful skill.
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Sorry for double post, but I started the 7th Character page on the wiki (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_7), for the postgame characters. Currently I have filled out Shou's page, minus the image and few of the stat grading metrics (because I got bored of checking back in the wiki to see what grades they should get and they aren't that important). Page 14 of the previous thread has all the translated passives, and the JP wiki lists growth rates and all basic stat values for the first three, so even people without the trial can help out if you're up to copy-pasting Shou's profile and filling in any of the correct data for Mamizou/Futo, or even the skills for further characters.
mamizou's jp wiki page translated for easy access (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=2&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/164.html&usg=ALkJrhhOGZHl0Tpw2PzEJ0RAVPX2qgAJuA) (the stats listed are the growth values; 100=10.0 )
the post with the translated passives/skills in last thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1233056.html#msg1233056)
If you have the full unlock save for the early edition of the trial you can even fill in stats on Kokoro/Miko/Tokiko! :V I had it but deleted it before thinking about wiki oops. Level-Up difficulty is just exp needed from lv1 to lv2 (listed in shrine's first level up option) and Library Cost is the cost of the first level of the element affinities.
Anyway, if anyone's willing to fill in any of the data for other characters (like, any of it- don't worry about doing the whole thing if you don't feel like it, if you fill out half a character I'll be happy to finish), I'll be more motivated to jump in and fill in all the missing bits myself. Otherwise, we'll see how often I feel like spending an hour slogging out an entire character at once. :V At least there's only a few of them, as opposed to that time I reformatted the spellcard info for LoT2's entire cast (dear god)
I also shortened Shou's long "Light of Dharma" passive as a suggestion for how to place it ingame, as an aside.
edit:Did Mamizou's entire section. Doesn't mean there's just one left though, since there's no need to stop at Futo. Especially if the old trial is still up, I should check that- with it pages can be almost fully filled out for everyone. I also somewhat shortened the description of Mamizou's Seven Elemental Transformations- I wasn't sure if that would be fitting ingame either.
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I wanna preorder +disk but I only have 40 bucks left after christmas shopping and I need to see how much steam wants to nom my wallet during its sale. Last year I only spent 12 bucks. But the year before I spent like 80.
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Lol, set up Diva Aya because the cookies were infuriating. That plus my ultimate PSN combo, Reisen and Mystia for full screen PSN, and Sakuya for Extra Attack procs on Poison Incense or what ever it's called. That plus Kogasa with her NTR attack plus Nitori's 3D gun killed all the Cookies. (Those bosses made me strangely hungery, lol). Also killed Knowledge's Shadow with DiVA Aya, Parsee's TRR shenanigans, Kogasa and Reisen to inflict TRR, Flan and Nitori for nukes. The oversized book was SIGHTREAD! (Hahahhahhahha, I hate myself) ).
I can't wait to see what else + disk has to offer, mabye refiners with the cookies, 2nd sun, etc? Or maybe another boss rush with the all the bosses, (with or without Murakumo and the character bosses), more playable characters that were not revealed in the demo? Even if there isn't, I am willing to waste ALL the money for on the +disk#
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I wanna preorder +disk but I only have 40 bucks left after christmas shopping and I need to see how much steam wants to nom my wallet during its sale. Last year I only spent 12 bucks. But the year before I spent like 80.
I was hoping it'd be on Melonbooks DL, that's where I bought 2, but I don't see it there. I guess he might do a physical release first or something.
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more playable characters that were not revealed in the demo?
Technically, only 3 characters were revealed in the demo (and somewhat more with the onsite teasers that aren't very well disguised), it's just we datamined the other five XD
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I was hoping it'd be on Melonbooks DL, that's where I bought 2, but I don't see it there. I guess he might do a physical release first or something.
oh I thought someone even had a pre-order link for melonbooks in th is thread or the other one, otherwise I'm in the same boat as you.
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oh I thought someone even had a pre-order link for melonbooks in th is thread or the other one, otherwise I'm in the same boat as you.
it was probably the Melonbooks.co.jp one, which is the mail order site unfortunately, the only links I've seen thus far have been for physical editions. Can't remember if he did it that way back when 2 was first released or not.
https://www.melonbooks.co.jp/detail/detail.php?product_id=191983
(I also find it funny that they advertise it as 好評受付中...if you can't read Japanese, 好評 means positive reviews/reputation and 受付中 is taking orders, normally the former is something you'd see to advertise a game that's already come out. I guess that makes sense in the context that it's a fandisc though)
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I need help trying to find some enemies to achieve *Register 120 Enemies...
(http://i.imgur.com/v3zdYQB.png)
I know that Walking ripe fruit is around 16F and 18F but its impossible to encounter it T_T. :ohdear:
Are these ones specifically in certain areas of the floors?
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it might be that it's just different when they're not against a glowing monocolor backround but several of those really don't look familiar....
...walkng ripe fruits are familiar, though. I see them in my beastiary at lv70. But I'm not sure how you could clear an entire floor without ever seeing one. :S It's not like the glowing golden mushroom.
I'd recommend just clearing more of the game to get the achievement, though. And... yeah, having just checked, the walking ripe fruit is the -only- one in -either- of my playthrough's bestiaries. The other ones have assumably just not showed up ingame yet. The game has two unused songs as well, expect to see these in Plus Disk somewhere. Where did you even get these images?! XD
If you clear up all of postgame before Plus Disk is out (possible, assuming you wait for the translation patch- it won't take forever or anything but they'll likely not release versions until they don't think there's about to be a bugfix patch) then I'll warn you ahead of time, in order to get the 200 enemies achieve you do actually have to kill some of the final postgame superbosses. There's leeway (golden mushroom isn't required) but it's in the low single digits and there's multiple parts of some of the bosses. That being said, I don't think you need to worry if you don't find a walking ripe fruit.
None of the random enemies in the Extra floors postgame will show up in the bestiary by the way. (I don't mean plus disk new floors- just the extra sections of already explored floors) because they're just higher leveled versions of the same monsters. Literally all of them.
edit:Found a walking ripe fruit by going to 18F North and using M for encounters a few times. There ya go! It really doesn't seem to appear much, but it's confirmed on 18f.
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I can confirm the Unripe Fruit, I had farmed those for Tokyo Metronomes in my first run. The mushroom dude, at least I think, is the Autum Taste, and is found on the floor you fight ran in the bottom left corner. Not sure 'bout the others though.
I beat the Orchid's Shadow ( I think that's what it's called, it spams Shell Melt) easily with some strategy. Komachi and Eirin stone walled him with Hina. After waiting out like (at leat it felt like) 30 shell melts I max debuffs speed and DivaAyaed him. For damage I used Eiki until she died and I was driven into using Aya to cheese him. From their I used Flan, Kogasa, and Monk Rin. ParsEE died too early to help, and Reisen could only contribute by helping TRR and speed debuffs to land. Yuyu couldn't do mucj damage so I just gave up with her. For me the key was to capitalize on TRR and HVY (Eirin did this one) to trigger Final Blow and Kogasa's ability to deal lots of damage with piercing (Flan, Rin, and Eiki, wished I brough Rumia now) and sheer damage (Kogasa). Seriously that thing's defenses feel like they were buffed or something. I don't know what to do know, I feel like grinding's smart because the Kraken is to fast for my 697 speed Aya and it just kills or heavily damages everyone before they can strike. (How is the Kraken supposed to be EASIER than the Orchid thing?)
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Did Futo's entire section on the wiki. That's all the characters fully present in the current trial. I could almost entirely fill out the pages of some more if I found the old trial (if it's even still up-I never really checked... it's probably not?), but the release is in a couple days anyway, so it's not a big deal.
As usual, I shortened the description of several Futo skills to where it could fit ingame. Both Ritual Offering skills are still a little long, but could be shortened by just taking out a few words here and there if necessary for space in the game. Eighty Sake Cups' counter name will probably have to be shortened anyway because "Ability to Read" alone is enough to take up the entire status bar ingame, and we need to be able to see what level it's at in battle. "Eighty Cups" will... probably work, though?
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ahh crap. physical only? Well hopefully digital will be available release day.
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I'm going to the winter comiket, does the creator releases the game at the event?
If yes, I can't seem to find where his cicle would be. Can someone help me specify?
If no, where does he releases it?
I can't read the japanese so thanks a whole bunch for any help! :D
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Does anyone know the route/way to get this chest on floor 4? Is been bugging for the longest time now.
http://imgur.com/a/Gf9WK
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It's on 9F, dearie. (It even says so on the screenshot.)
And no there isn't any legal way to get it. You can use cheat engine to teleport yourself over I guess.
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IIRC someone hacked themselves over there and it was something absolutely uninteresting, anyway. So it's weird, but you're not missing out.
I'm going to the winter comiket, does the creator releases the game at the event?
Assumably so because this is the release date, but I can't help you past that, unfortunately!
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Here's a google translated tweet from the dev:
"East Labyrinth 2 Plus Disc" is starting to be distributed today from Melon Books, Tomohisa Aran, Akiba ~, AKIBA - HOBBY, Greg. I was asked "Where is the Comiket Space?" But Comiket will not come out! Sorry to keep in mind; ω; (too late warning"
Source: https://twitter.com/aaa_3peso?lang=ja
https://www.melonbooks.co.jp/detail/detail.php?product_id=191983
https://www.toranoana.jp/mailorder/article/04/0030/47/86/040030478611.html
http://ec.akbh.jp/products/detail.php?product_id=2100000071586
I might have missed something, not sure, but it seems it's physical distribution only
edit: I felt the need to say, nevermind, see RegalStar's post below
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It's on 9F, dearie. (It even says so on the screenshot.)
And no there isn't any legal way to get it. You can use cheat engine to teleport yourself over I guess.
An easy way of grabbing it is to just edit the maps in the data folder. It's just a simple notepad document where X = a valid space to move to and . = a wall. But yeah it really wasn't anything worth mentioning anyway. I imagine the dev just forgot to include a space to connect there or something is all because the item is nothing special.
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It's up on Melon DL. http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000192607
Also there's now an 1.100 patch for plus disk, to nobody's surprise I'm sure.
EDIT: 1.100 actually added some gameplay changes apparently. Bishamonten's Wrath is now capped at 100 and Overheat is capped at 5.
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He realized Utsuho had obtained nirvana-like potential with unlimited overheat XD Well, that makes me less mega tempted to run her. Still, she's pretty good now. After 5~6 turns she has about... 3.8x damage on her fire skills? They're not very strong to start with, but after that, uhhhh, jeez. Only ~2.3x damage on other elements, and since she has Sheer Force, it's not clear how much she's interested in other elements? I guess the biggest issue there is subclass magic skills are either really high cost+delay so bad for utsuho's stay-in style (archmage) or not particularly strong (sorcerer), even the limited subclasses aren't particularly good options there. So she can sub whatever she likes. (Transcendent to aid her need to stay in?)
I wonder if Intense Nuclear Reaction applies the mag bonus before or after it deals it's damage. I never cared before because Utsuho wasn't that good. I also wonder how much Giga Flare and Tokamak were buffed- I checked in the past and Giga Flare got a pretty big damage up iirc.
Shou is still almost effectively unlimited, in any case. Which is good because that's probably the only thing she has that makes her a competitive party member choice.
It's up on Melon DL. http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000192607
OH DEAR LORD IN THE RELATED ITEMS YOU CAN SEE HE WROTE A MANNOSUKE MANGA.
It is very definitely his artstyle (LoT1)
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oh god ice floors
Also I hope that your team has access to high accuracy/100% accuracy attacks because otherwise you're going to kill yourself on B5F
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hugging maribel tightly and giving nitori an accuracy boost equip >.>
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I hope we'll get an English patch eventually :-)
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We should probably wait for all the week one patches to finish before starting on the translation.
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Meanwhile, we get to hear about new character info as people playing in jp like RegalStar unlock them :D Granted, we know most of it, but delay/power of their skills and the new subclass stuff is important and left to be seen. Along with how far in you have to get to unlock some of 'em...
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B6F is now ice floors plus moving tiles, which makes the minimap look like this :(
(http://puu.sh/t64yf/ef5f3a8bd2.png)
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So it was an ice stratum, whelp. Looking forward to that mess I guess.
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(http://puu.sh/t6c05/b6f03552d6.png)
(http://puu.sh/t6uzc/98cc2e0e75.png)
Miko's stats. It looks really low compared to that 75 level-up difficulty so I guess it balances out her getting all those nice skills. Her library cost is 62 and her MP growth is 1/16.
Spell stats:
Tradition of Just Rewards - Around 200-60, 5400 postuse
Goose Cannon - Around 280-106, 1200 postuse
Wishful Soul of Desire- Heals for 25% MAG at base, 5000 postuse. The bonus mechanic seems to be a mess so far; it heals MP on buffs instead of debuffs and actually reduce healing on them. My best theory to how it works currently is that for every individual stat buff and ailment, it heals (2.5% MAG) HP and 1 MP. The 2.5% MAG part should probably be added onto the 25% MAG base instead of replacing it.
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(http://puu.sh/t6s01/0242ba3244.png)
(http://puu.sh/t6uAZ/1c78b851b6.png)
Koishi's base stats. Those ailment resists. 1 MP Recovery sucks though. Her library cost is 57 and her MP growth is 1/20.
Spells:
Embers of Love - 240.25-77.5, post-use 5800
Superego - 234-90, post-use 3000
All Ancestors standing on your bed - 200-60, post-use 4000. SIL bonus seems to be 50% and I assume that TRR works the same. I don't know how it works on enemies with both SIL and TRR because Parsee refuses to proc her status.
Selfless Love - post-use 5800. Not sure how the restore works yet; the only controlled method of both losing HP and self-buffing I know of are Remilia's Curse and Mari's self-buff, and in both cases Koishi just restored them to full regardless of the buff's magnitudes, so it's either bugged or based solely on the number of buffs present.
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RegalSar, could you do
Akyuu the rest of this is to blot out
as soon as you get her, please? Really excited about her being playable.
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She's the last character in the playable list so I'm betting that you can only get her after you finish plus disk or something :P Assuming that I get to her before atwiki does I will post things as well.
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Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited for + disk release. I really wanna use Shou, but I wonder if she would do alright without synergies. I don't use any of her buds, so.... yeah. Yuyu and Youmu get their synergy. (lol, using Youmu)
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By the way, I believe that Shou's wiki description should emphasize more how good Shou can be for gold/xp/item farming:
1) Her Radiant Treasure Gun increases gold/xp/droprate significantly
2) Ability to Gather Treasure increases them too
3) She has specific synergy with Nazrin and Rinnosuke who are also excellent for gold/xp/item farming
While I have not yet tried her myself, I believe Shou's role is more of a farmer than a generic tank or bulky attacker as suggested by the wiki
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Can someone maybe tell us what this dev tweet says in detail? What I got out of it with just google translate, is that what we call the endless corridoor, is not actually endless (yet?) and that... something else about it will be changed?
tweet in question: https://twitter.com/aaa_3peso/status/815132760176107520?lang=en
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Probably it means there is a 999 cap they will remove with a patch or something
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He's talking about future updates. On early to mid January hidden bosses will be installed and corridor will go up to 256F, and on late January to early February additional floors will be added and corridor will go up to 999F.
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By the way, I believe that Shou's wiki description should emphasize more how good Shou can be for gold/xp/item farming:
You're certainly not wrong, but TBH, she's not -that- great at that either, so I wouldn't get too excited. It's a nice on-the-side thing, but unless you want to use her in your party full time anyway, I'm not sure how much you should really care. The move bonus only works on enemies she kills with it and it's a weak skill, and Shou is weak as well without Rinnosuke in the party (bishamonten rage is a non-factor in grinding). The passive is nice, but you're probably not going to put her in your party grinding just for it, because postgame everyone can spare points for Motivated Heart and Hands-On Experience to boost their exp gains if they're in the main party. Plus, you'd have to dump a decent amount of money into her stats... just to use her for farming with a weak move that'll struggle to kill enemies. IMO if you want a grind bonus you're better off using Nazrin with Extra Steps and her stronger, cheaper attacks and better speed/mp recovery- and if you're item farming Nazrin can single out the enemy you need to kill for double item drop. You can use both, but it's sort of overkill and you're losing exp on main party members.
Now, in the infinite corridor she can get a skill that significantly boosts the power of these skills. But Infinite Corridor awakening is a really expensive thing, in a way. No way you'd want to awaken Shou for a minor grinding bonus before you awaken your main set of 12, and going past 120f is seriously endgame stuff AFAIK.
It IS okay on the side, you can prolly afford to let a really fast leveler out of the party because level equalizing on bosses, you can only spend a cheap amount on library stuff to get her up to half-decent levels for grinding only, and it's not like Shou is useless the rest of the time, but at this point, I think we can trust the players to notice Shou has a move with big farming bonuses. But again, unless Shou is a full-time party member for you (So you're investing tomes, big library investment, etc into her Attack to take advantage of her great passives) she's already kind of weak and she's going to struggle to actually kill enemies well enough with the move to make a lot of difference.
Whenever we figure out how we're going to do infinite corridor awakening sections on the wiki and she gets the big farm boost skill we'll be noting it in there. Until then, a player who's gotten well into plus disk content can be trusted to notice she's got some nice farming boosts, I figure, but there's really better characters to put in your party for farming imo.
ANYWAY MOVING ON.
Miko is actually not as strong as expected. Maintenance is really strong, of course, and she's got some pretty sick passives, but a brutal 75 level difficulty (worst in the game!) and skill formulas a little worse than expected... hmm. Well, if her passive really does give her 20% extra benefit on buffs (and it's not just that she maxes 20% higher- but literally gets like, 96% stat increase instead of 80% from 80% buffs) then she should still be preeeeetty good. She doesn't have a supernuke like Nitori, but she should still be very bulky, with a plethora of useful effects. Plus, I want to use Futo as another lovely bulky attacker, so synergies!
Koishi looks pretty solid. 1 mp recovery sucks, but in postgame we have multiple kinds of items for fixing that with, and she has expansion of consciousness if she feels like concentrating now and then with all those extra turns she can get evading. Embers of Love indeed has a pretty nice power/delay, SuperEgo is pretty strong for an all-target with the stable Void element, and Ancestors has good damage with a very nice bonus on two status effects. And, thankfully, she's got the base stats to take a hit when she fails to evade. Just needs to be taught hp/def/affinity boost to help keep her from falling in one hit. And of course, she adds a 4th member to the Earth Spirits Team, making it's team bonus equivalent to team 9 levels and rewarding you handsomely if you go all-in (with, eventually, proof of kinship from corridor to make it silly)
That leaves Tokiko (I'm curious about that passive buff increase effect's strength!), Kokoro, and Spoiler. But yeah, Spoiler probably gets recruited dreadfully late. I doubt it's after you beat the last boss because that's silly, but I wouldn't be that surprised if it's near the last floor.
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Unlike the first game, the plus disk in this game does have a story, and judging from some of 3peso's comments, its own postgame, so getting a character after the plus disk "final boss" is not really that ridiculous.
Anyways, Ninja:
Subclass bonus: [0.]8 SPD, 20 evasion, 12 all ailments
Assassination Sword: 240-150, postuse 5000
Fast Movement: 16% SPD buff (20% at lv5), postuse 7700
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Unlike the first game, the plus disk in this game does have a story, and judging from some of 3peso's comments, its own postgame, so getting a character after the plus disk "final boss" is not really that ridiculous
Well, I can see where you're coming from there- I was considering "final boss" to mean like the literal last one there is, not counting massively high infinite corridor levels. It's nice to hear there's a story, though. I did figure she may be recruited after beating the dragon god, or yamato-no-orochi or whatever it was that was in the achievements.
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Ninja... I was pretty hopeful on that sub because I could see Fast Movement having like, 85% delay, which in itself would actually be very useful on some characters who just want to take a lot of turns. 77% still isn't half bad, but it's more towards the point where you may as well just use the attack command instead if you want a lot of turns, so that you can sub a more beneficial class. Hmm. The small def/mnd ignore bonus Ninja gives isn't terrible, but it's a pretty small amount. The class looks kinda garbage TBH.
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Thanks for clearing that up about the tweet, it's kind of a letdown that the infinite corridor isn't actually infinite, that was the thing I was looking forward to the most. Considering there's something about the corridor floors that stopped him from just letting people access it now, after release, there's probably something about it that isn't procedually generated, so a simple cheat engine hack probably won't work.
But I'm probably thinking way too far ahead anyway, everything still looks like a lot of additional playtime and replay value to me so that's pretty much the only thing I can complain about.
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If nothing else, there's the bosses every 10 floors that he has to make. That's a lot of boss fights!
999F may not be infinite, but, uh, that's an awful lot of floors to manage to go through... like, a loooooot. I wouldn't be worried. You very well may not even -get- to 999f, and if you do, it's likely you'll be about ready for the end. Even wonderful things get tiring after so much of it.
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Besides, judging from what I read on the tweet, we'll get it patched in a couple months. I'm pretty sure 999 floors are enough for 60 days of playtime :-)
Now to eagerly wait for that English patch to start playing this for real...^^
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Actually, Koishi and Miko's double worst-in-the-game level up difficulties have me wondering- RegalStar, what's their Library Cost? (wiki metric is the cost of their first element affinity level)
If they have matching library costs that's actually pretty painful for their stats >.> Koishi might be like Mamizou and have normal cost, but I imagine Miko is probably on the expensive end...
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Miko's library is 62 and Koishi 57.
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Even wonderful things get tiring after so much of it.
Not this game, I won't believe it.
About how big is each endless corridor floor though and how noticeable is enemy/reward scaling?
That aside I wonder if beating the plus disc last boss will allow us to restart with the new characters. I didn't enjoy the laby 1 restart with all characters, but for some reason in this one, it's fun. I started way too many runs just to play trough the game with different characters.
Also, because I got a bit too hyped for this, I actually went to edit those portraits to be closer to the original ones just for myself. Noone was interested last time I mentioned it, but might as well share since I did it anyway:
[attach=1]
Preview here for what it's worth: [attach=2]
I forgot how to embed, I'll be back in a minute to fix that
Aaaalso...did you guys know, you can apparently change -every- artwork/graphics in the game, enemies to simple UI stuff? Just have to figure out the name of the original file along with I think the folderpath, then the game will priotize those over the original ones in the archive... I just found that out while playing around a bit, there's nothing amazing you can do with it aside from removing some animated things to reduce lag on weaker PCs, but I thought its fun to know for no real reason.
Edit to avoid doublepost:
I just remembered my old mediafire account where I uploaded stuff for laby 1 (charagraphs of course), made me wish I could contribute a bit more to all of this again.
https://puu.sh/t6Ur5/90588ffcd3.png
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Ame-no-Murakumo's Protection:
Subclass bonus: ATK MAG DEF MND +10
Ame-no-Murakumo Slash: 238-85, Postuse 6000
Start of Heavenly Demise: 353-94, Postuse 1660
World Shaking Military Rule: +12% All stats at level 1, +16% at level 5. Postuse 5000
Are the passive skills in this class worth the drawbacks? It looks like I can use this as a Gambler Ver2, but what other things can I do with it?
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(http://puu.sh/t714m/0c918e94d1.png)
(http://puu.sh/t715d/fae71aa4ee.png)
Kokoro's stats. Library cost is 43 and MP growth is 1/21.
Spells:
Four Humours Posession: 185-68, Postuse 4000
Invigorated Kagura Lion: 255-72, Postuse 5250
Man of Qi Worrying about Earth: 131(composite)-70, Postuse 3800
From just observation, Four Humours Possession will start inflicting ailments when it's used with an emotion mask active. The first one (Joy) inflicts SIL, SHK, and a lot of debuffs, while the other three doesn't seem to - however, the spell text did state that the specs of the spell change with emotions too so that might have been onto something (though I have at least observed that the element doesn't change).
Speaking of emotion masks, with Manipulation of Emotions active healing spells buff by 16% (except cheerfulness which buffs SPD by 20% instead) and debuffs debuff by... I think 10%. The mask you get is also not random; you will always get them in the order of joy, anger, melancholy, cheerfulness, and loop. I don't know the effect of masks on ATK/DEF/MAG/MND, but Cheerfulness buffed speed from 196 to 207 which is... a 6% increase.
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It turns out that the last computer volume is on 21F behind a 16 fragments rock which I completely forgot about. I could've gotten Tokiko a couple of floors earlier if I had realized :P
(http://puu.sh/t79gi/c815e3b7b7.png)
(http://puu.sh/t79jE/5f1acfb572.png)
Her library cost is 57 so I guess that makes up for those stats and level-up speed. Still, those Kasen level growths off 49 level-up difficulty... Her MP growth is 1/25 which is a record low I believe.
Spells:
Yakuza Kick - 225-75, postuse 6600. Reading boosts damage to (I think) 441-110.
Vengeance/Recklessness - 144-60, postuse 4000, or 7000 if under Reading
Computer - Heals 22% at base, plus 1% for every MP missing from full. This doesn't seem to increase when under Reading, despite the spell description. Postuse 3000, or 5500 if under Reading
Also, her skill list is quite different from the one posted back on thread 15F, so I'm going to update it and post it here:
1. Unnamed Book-Reading Youkai
When the user takes damage from an element with less than 200 affinity,
the user recovers (SLv*4)% HP and (SLv) MP.
2. Victim of Reimu and Marisa's Brutality
When Reimu or Marisa is at the front,
the user's ATK and DEF increases by (SLv*10)%.
3. Crested Ibis's Breeding Feather
When the user gets a turn and the user is under the "Reading" effect,
slightly reduces the effect of enemy stat buffs
and slightly increases the effect of enemy stat debuffs.
4. Sugari no Ontachi's Ornament
When the user gets a turn and the user is under the "Reading" effect,
slightly increases the effect of frontline ally stat buffs
and slightly decreases the effect of Frontline ally stat debuffs.
5. Crossed Over Endangered Bird
When the user is at the front and under the "Reading" effect,
slightly increases the effect of PSN's HP reduction, HVY's DEF and SPD debuff,
TRR's slight stat debuffs and SIL's MND and MAG debuff.
6. Give As Good As You Get
When the user takes damage from an enemy, the user's ATK is increased by (SLv*5)%.
7. Love for you who read books
Increase the chance of "The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance", "Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness" and "The Future of Non-von Neumann Processors"'s
chance of giving the user "Reading" effect.
8. Youkai Yakuza Kick
MP Cost 5 All Enemies: PHY Direct Attack - Acc+4
A high-power, low-delay and useful basic attack known for breaking Kourindou's door.
If the "Reading" effect is active, the effect is removed in exchange for a power boost.
9. The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengance
MP Cost 4 All Enemies: CLD Magic Attack - Acc+24
Attack that targets all enemies and inflicts SHK and DTH.
It's not very powerful. The user occasionally receives the "Reading" effect after use.
If the user is already under "Reading" effect, the spell's delay is reduced and its SHK and DTH effects are strengthened.
10. Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness
MP Cost 4 All Enemies: FIR Magic Attack - Acc+24
Attack that targets all enemies, inflicts SIL and reduces MAG and SPD slightly.
It's not very powerful. The user occasionally receives the "Reading" effect after use.
If the user is already under "Reading" effect, the spell's delay is reduced and its SIL and MAG/SPD debuff effects are strengthened.
11. The Future of Non-von Neumann Processors
MP Cost 10 All Allies: MYS Auxillary Action
Halve the effect of ailments and debuffs on all allies, and recovers a small precentage amount of HP.
The HP recovery amount is determined by the difference between the target's current and max MP. The user occasionally receives the "Reading" effect after use.
If the user is already under "Reading" effect, the spell's delay is reduced and the HP recovery effect is strengthened.
Basically, the non-kicking spells cost 2 less MP to use, but will only "occasionally" give the Reading effect, and there's a new skill that increases the chance of that happening. Also, using a book spell while the user is already under Reading will reduce their delay and increase their secondary effects.
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Corridor skills for the four new characters:
Miko
Prince's Lecture (1*144)
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.
Supreme Divinely-Appointed Stateswoman (1*100)
Both effects of Divinely-Appointed Statewoman will always be active.
Tradition of Just Rewards will take on both morphed elements and additional effects.
Mega Asuka Heritage Attack (1*50)
Asuka Heritage Attack's activation condition becomes "when HP is above 50%".
Kokoro
Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks (1*128)
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.
Mask of Hope (1*66)
When the skill holder receives a turn, regenerate HP at 10%.
Continued Spirit (1*60)
Fighting Spirit will not disappear when the skill holder moves to the back,
but will instead lose 1 level.
Tokiko
Tokiko's Thick Book Marital Arts (1*50)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.
[I have no idea how to break this phrase] (http://puu.sh/t7jBa/c0b0c22ebd.png) (1*80)
When the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", "The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance" and
"Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness"'s special effects are further strengthened,
and the spells' power is also increased. When this effecf activates, there is a low chance
that "Reading" effect will disappear.
Book-reading Youkai's Unremarkable Grudge (1*60)
In battle, if Reimu or Marisa is in the back,
"Victim of Reimu and Marisa's brutality" will activate at half strength.
Koishi
Embryo's Dream (1*70)
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.
Super-responsive Senses+ (1*70)
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.
Embryo Dance for Some Reason (1*128)
When evading an attack, the chance of "Embryo's Dream" counter increasing is doubled.
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edit:apology for massive wall I simply cannot stop myself and that's a lot of character dump to go through
Are the passive skills in this class worth the drawbacks? It looks like I can use this as a Gambler Ver2, but what other things can I do with it?
What a weird subclass. I think the starring features are powerful attack skills and base stat increases comparable to transcendent- there are a few characters who would be pretty happy just to get those attacks. Slash has a very nice delay to go with good power, and the other is a very heavy nuke, albiet expensive. Was there anyone with good enough buff passives to care about using World-Shaking Military Rule...? It's really expensive. Actually, Rinnosuke would fittingly get it up to +30% buff to everything, so I guess that's why it has to be expensive. (As for return of mannosuke, his attack stats only boost up to 11.2, comparable to a base attack of 10.2 on most characters, worse after attackers can attack double boost, etc- he's definitely only meant for support in this game)
It's a subclass where you might want one or two of the weird passives (especially if you're gonna use it like a gambler!) but most likely not all of them. Three Swords of the Divine Era especially is an incredibly expensive passive you probably don't want unless you're gambler-ing, along with likely the buff-sucker one- those two probably comprise the gambler build. Alternatively, the HP/MP suck could make a character better for staying out at not too major of a cost to the rest of the front row to consider, but even so you -are- still paying for it. I had considered it for Utsuho when she had infinite overheat to keep the mp flowing, but now that it maxes at 5, it's more considerable to just give her mp double boost (not that I'll use her this run, most likely). If you handed it off to someone you tend to only switch out for a lack of MP, or someone who already has HP regen, the effect might be notably useful. Dear god, bulky attacker Meiling could become immortal. I think I'll pass on that, though.
Moving on. Kokoro! Invigorated Kagura Lion sounded from the description like it may pierce DEF pretty well, although it's of course hard to tell in testing. Notable for giving her access to fighting spirit, but that effect assumably is lost on swap out, so, tricky... although it's by far her best attack after all, unless a different emotion of Four Humors is notably stronger (Anger?). Her stat manip is still weird but if it's not a major effect apparently, that's not as big of a deal to work around; plus the later bonuses like "double beneficial effect on allies, lower negative effect".
Tokiko... oh, that's a change. Her MP is indeed record low, but those are pretty nice stats, just teach her MP boost. If you only have a CHANCE of getting Reading though, she won't be able to make much use of Yakuza Kick's double damage off it, though- which is unfortunate since that makes an offensive build almost negate all of her other skills, instead of a possible bulky attacker that still gets Reading bonuses half the time. With her low base MAG and weak magic skills, those are pretty much purely for their support effects and Reading, but at least they're very fast to give her turns for her passives once Reading is up. If her heal gets a notable strength boost with Reading in the future that's pretty nice. Perhaps not enough to want to sub Healer on her... well, then again, she wouldn't mind a normal healing skill for use as a tank, so it's an option.
The biggest thing is, just how much effect do her Reading passive bonus skills have? I'm assuming she pumps buffs/debuffs up/down each turn she takes, e.g. Maribel's 80% mag buff becomes 88% mag buff when Tokiko takes a turn. Alternatively, with Reimu/Marisa out (and Reimu is a tanky BEAST after corridor), her Attack gets pretty high, so an offense build still isn't the worst idea, but it seems like a bit of a waste of her kit. notedit:Okay, with the corridor her attack gets even -higher-, so maybe it's NOT a waste, jeez. Or as a tank, she gets top class def/mnd. Very pleasing.
Corridor Skills! Jesus, Miko gets triple elements, debuff all, and removes buffs on her single-target skill. Okaaaay she's not going to need subclass attacks much after that, christ. And obviously, boosting buff benefit is a very useful passive similar to Maribel's. Wait, it works in the BACK...!?
JESUS MIKO GET IN MY PARTY ALREADY. Tokiko... that's nice for tank support. Although I'm curious how much stronger her spells get, it'd have to be a lot to matter, because her base MAG is butt for offense. Wait, Victim of Reimu/Marisa's Brutality maxes at LEVEL 4? JESUS CHRIST TOKIKO YOUR ATTACK STAT I GUESS A PURE KICKING BUILD REALLY ISN'T BAD. That totals at +75% attack, along with the def increase for bulk. Give her some base ATK bonuses to go with the 75% increase and you really get somewhere. Something to consider for those using Reimu after her corridor awakening which... is likely, because it's Reimu, even if I'm not currently planning on using her. Okay, nevermind, she has a easy-activation like Proof of Kinship to make it really easy to get even without tank'mu.
And Kokoro has nice stuff and Koishi gets a turn of turns which we mostly already knew. Koishi looks like a fun character and super solid if you're running multiple Earth Spirits characters. Still looks to be totally usable without 'em, but her level rate -is- pretty low and somewhat costly library. Kokoro looks like her skillset is stuffy because the composite is a weak for-randoms skill and she only has one attack for ATK or MAG- she just needs subclass attacks to up her variety. Her ATK skill is pretty useful though with high power and Fighting Spirit, so perhaps not?
Christ, Miko and Tokiko. I mean, fine, Tokiko isn't insanely fabulous offensively (Even if her base attack soars higher than flandre's... she's definitely somewhat fabulous), it's just... it's a LOT MORE THAN I EXPECTED. Looks like she has top class bulky attacker potential due to the speed and sheer bonus size. In addition to possibly being a very useful tank if built the other way around. Since she works off massive base stats, she'd enjoy subclass attacks for variety if you're attacking, but Youkai Yakuza Kick alone is already the best you can do when elemental resistance roulette doesn't say otherwise.
Perhaps I should have expected this. If a dev is going to put Tokiko of all characters in the game, Tokiko must be their secret waifu.
...I don't know quite how we're going to wiki some of these multiple-versions-of-single-skill attack skills on the wiki.
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Sorry, Victim of Reimu and Marisa's Brutality maxes at level 2. The level 4 skill is the one that increase chance of Reading.
Oh, and Beauty of Nature is WND-elemental now.
Also, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (http://puu.sh/t7kfo/6a2d8c0b57.png)
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Sorry, Victim of Reimu and Marisa's Brutality maxes at level 2. The level 4 skill is the one that increase chance of Reading.
Oh, I was looking at Unnamed Book Reading Youkai, oops. That's also a pretty nice skill, in any case, 16% hp and 4 mp, sweet. Half of her affinites are likely to stay under 200... although eventually library will mean you're keeping them that way on purpose rather than because that's how things are. I wonder how insanely postendgame until it's not worth keeping it low versus powerleveling it? (That'd probably be an eternity.)
Okay, she gets +50% attack, not +75%. Not as crazy, still pretty solid. She still has Flan-grade ATK if Reimutank is out. Nearly 40% if Reimu/Marisa in the back which is still pretty great. Also still sort of 1.5x benefit from things like Attack Boost, double boost, gems, main equips for base stat, etc.
also AHAHAHAHAA GROSS.
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Anybody knows if Tomes of Reincarnation are still in limited quantity in the Plus Disk, like in the original game? It'd be nice to be able to experiment with different builds without worrying about running out of tomes and/or wasting resources
EDIT: That is nice to know, Serela
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You can buy them in the postgame stores with infinity gems or whatnot. Of course, it's best if you can save the gems for the other neat stuff, but you can always just grind for more gems!
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Is there anyone who knows how to fix this problem?
I am able to open the full version of the game, but it closes afterwards. Do I lack files or something?
I also finished the latest trial version, It's great how Futo can be a speedster like Aya.
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(http://puu.sh/t80mp/0055490a49.png)
(http://puu.sh/t80nn/a15a4927f8.png)
So I was right; you only get her after defeating Yamata no Orochi (which is plus disk's omote last boss). Her library cost is an extremely low 31, so those low stats can be pretty tweakable.
Her skills and spells:
Ability to Remember Everything Seen Once (1*25):
If Akyuu is in the party, the "View Ally/Enemy Information" menu
will display all enemies' current HP.
Knowledge of Gensokyo Chronicles (1*20):
When the skill holder is in the front,
all frontliners inflict 16% more damage when targetting enemy weakness.
Memories of Gensokyo (1*15)
When the skill holder receives a turn,
remove one negative status from all frontliners.
When both status ailment and debuffs are in place, debuffs will be prioritized.
Power of the Child of Miare (9*4)
If the skill holder's HP becomes 0 while having at least 1 TP,
there is a (SLv*10)% chance to consume 12 TP to fully restore HP.
This effect cannot activate if TP is 0.
Super Incantation (5*10)
When the skill holder uses Concentrate, grant the effect
"next attack's damage will be multiplied by (1.5+SLv*0.6)".
(Holy crap)
Phenomenal Force of Will (1*8)
When the skill holder receives a turn, restore 1 MP.
Protecting Art of Wisdom
MP Cost 12 / Target Single Ally: FIR / Auxillary
Grants the special status "Temporary Invincibility", which negates damage from enemy attacks once.
After "Temporary Invincibility" activates, or 20% of the time when the affected character
receives a turn, remove the effect.
Guarding Art of Wisdom
MP Cost 6 / Target All Frontliners: CLD / Auxillary
Grants the special status "Temporary Invulnerability", which negates status ailments from enemy attacks once.
After "Temporary Invulnerability" activates, or 10% of the time when the affected character
receives a turn, remove the effect.
[Although the spell claims to affect all frontliners, it actually only affects a single target. One of the corridor skills support this as well.]
Corridor skills:
Desire for Greater Wisdom (1*50)
Occasionally "Protecting Art of Wisdom" and "Guarding Art of Wisdom" will affect all frontliners.
Protector of Knowledge (1*75)
"Temporary Invincibility" and "Temporary Invulnerability" will naturally disappear half as often.
True Maiden of Are (1*50)
"Power of the Child of Miare" will occasionally not consume TP when it activates.
Miare's Great Knowledge (5*25)
Mp Cost 11 / Targets all allies / NTR / Auxillary
A support spell that places a "increase next action's damage" boost on all allies.
Tested stuff:
You can view enemy current HP by cancelling out of action menu, then move the cursor to the enemy in question. Unfortunately, either you can't view enemy stats yet or it's hidden behind some command that I don't know of. The "view enemy stats" part is actually the info text for when you cancel out of action menu, which is translated as "View Ally/Enemy Information" in v1.203 main.
Both of her support spells have 6000 delay. Increasing their level seems to do nothing.
Power of Child of Miare does not reset ATB to 0 when it activates. Also despite the description, it only seems to activate when Akyuu actually has enough TP to pay the cost.
Miare's Great Knowledge grants 34% damage buff on level 1, and 50% on level 5.
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Akyuu's abilities
Let me get this straight. Akyuu has:
A Library Cost of 31.
The Power to be a Wiki lol.
Satori's ability to hit harder when hitting a weakness.
The Power to erase Debuffs and Status Ailments, one at a time for each front-liner.
A pricier version of Mokou's Resurrection, without the ATB issue.
A Grand Incantation that amps spells by 4.5 times at max level.
Yukari's 1 MP regen per Turn.
And all this on top of the power to render an single attack's damage for one ally, or render a single attack's status effects for an entire group, completely useless.
Oh, and her stats clearly point towards being a mage, so an Orb of Earthin and the Archmage subclass will let Akyuu utterly wreck the crap out of people after a focus. Healer is a distant second as a support(because instant single target full heal after a focus actually pales in comparison to nuking the crap out of people)...
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Akyuu already has concentration before attacking, 3 base mp regen, and 1 mp regen per turn; she don't need no orb of earithin. But Super Incantation is holy wow. If you invest mag gems into her then, uh, damn. And that's one hilariously low library cost- the cheapest in the game was 40 or 41 before.
Still, her base stats are utterly terrible. Concentrating before a nuke blast is a problem with that level of durability. If you invest gems into her to fix up her stats, though, Super Incantation looks... really nice... >_> And admittedly, if you give her double TP boost she can resurrect for free a couple times. (Or just a tp main equip, but she could really use a base mag equip)
Alternatively, support akyuu, those skills are a lot cheaper than the first time they were found in the data. Her durability is still a real problem when it comes to trying to play support (her super resurrection only makes it workable, not amazing), but it's good, and we can assume she still has her "give everyone Boost" infinite corridor skill- it's just a matter of how much boost it gives (probably a good chunk, since Maribel already has a weak all-boost) Infinite Corridor should make her actually a wiki with enemy ailment/element resists too based on leak data?
Akyuu is... quite an interesting character. I really like the Plus Disk cast!
edit:So two questions for RegalStar. First is how good Tokiko's reading passive for buffs each time she takes a turn seems to work? Second, is what you're using as your team after all this time O:
edit again: akyuu subbing for Start of Heavenly Demise
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Tokiko's skill lets all buffs increase by 10% of its original magnitude and all debuffs decrease by 10% of its original magntidue (51% ATK up and 32% DEF/MND down becomes 56% ATK up and 29% DEF/MND down).
And I've uploaded videos of all plus disk boss fights (except for the ones in trial and shadow team 9 against which I forgot to save before fighting) on youtube. You can see the team I'm running in them.
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Cool! And, I figured it was probably 10%. With her good delays (or just switches/normal attacks) she gets a good amount of turns... hrm. If you subbed her
Dragon God
and had a strategist out that's enough to keep high buffs going for quite awhile. Tokiko/Keine frontline and Byakuren isn't super important anymore, Renko Charge now and then...? Hrm. Interesting. I'll peek at some videos for a little bit, but despite my hunger for character info, I'll try to stay away from much boss spoiling.
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It seems that even after beating the omote final boss of plus disk, you cannot use the eight new character on NG+. That's pretty sad.
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I imagine if not, it'll get patched in later. NG+ has always had weird issues in 3peso games...
That or he's a jerk and you have to clear further to get to ng+ with glorious Akyuu.
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Given that you needed to beat the Enhanced Ame-no-Murakumo to make the Sealing Club members transfer on NG+, I imagine beating the Plus Disk postgame stuff will let Akyuu transfer too.
Still though, man, kinda looking forward to being able to play this myself, though I might wait for at least a basic English patch so all the "need to know" stuff is translated.
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And theorycrafting before bed; Tokiko tank subbed
Dragon God
and your choice of strategist tank is enough to nearly make your frontline permanent max buffs. This would be pretty amazing if it wasn't that Byakuren gets nearly infinite mp to throw out buffs, but Tokiko isn't a half bad option given she can actually emulate most of Byakuren's self-support kit and has similar stats. Worse HP, better defenses, more free turns.
It's a bit less consistent though and you'd have to have someone else getting them up to high buffs to start with (Renko?), so, Byakuren is still probably the easier option there. If Tokiko's multiheal gets that reading buff sometime she still might be a pretty nice side support option, though- or just going the offense route for that flan-grade attack is always an option.
Akyuu's Super Incantation and other various things is hilarious, but it's worth noting star glass cannons like Suwako and Marisa can get comparable damage increases off their own kit without having to stay out long enough for a concentration buildup, something Keine can fix for normal glass cannons but not Akyuu. With better base ATK/MAG. So, while hilarious, it's probably not actually a great idea to try to run Akyuu offensively? Hmm, her library -is- hilariously cheap, but you'd really need to dump a lot of gems on her to fix those stats enough to make it work. It's a viable option, but not necessarily something worth doing. That support though, I'm certainly not saying Akyuu is bad~ Albiet, situational...
I guess Flandre got buffed because gambler was nerfed and the glass cannons needed to get buffs to stay competitive options. I'm probably swapping out my Kaguya after awhile due to the nerf, she's almost impossible to use in randoms no matter how much speed I give her anyway, sloooow. The def/mnd ignore was critical for non-plus postgame but now, probably not as much? (There's more options in plus for that anyway)
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Sorry for being that one clueless guy, but what does "omote" mean?
I'm still trying to understand how we are supposed to go at things without entering content while being overleveled, there are additional underground floors and above ground, above ground has the main story, right? Then where do the underground floors stand? Part of the base games postgame, accessible along with the plus discs main game, but ending earlier than the plus discs main story, or does it extend to plus discs postgame? Not taking the endless corridor into account since I'm pretty sure that extends into post-plus disc content.
Also as someone who rather uses his favorite characters instead of the ones that are best, I'm happy Utsuho got a buff, Koishi (Koishi!) was added (a Kokoro is fine too)
and...Actually slightly disappointed we got Akyuu instead of Nue
who I half-expected after seeing he added a lot of UFO (why am I even putting this into spoilers suddenly after a couple of pages full of spoilers)
characters. Really looking forward to the english patch.
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There are still some tough nuts to crack in plus like Diamond Knight or Grandgon (although the former resists SPI), and Kaguya could be helpful against those. Also until you hit the plus disk postgame, pretty much every basement floor is filled with SPI-weak enemies and Kaguya could do major damage to them. Outspeeding things is a concern but you could have Aya or Rinno with SPD bonus or a brigade of Monks to switch her in.
I used "omote" to denote the "storyline" part of storyline last boss (in contrast with "ura final boss" which means TLB). Basically the plus disk counterpart of Murakumo. Also you are expected to explore both below and above ground; there are rocks that prevent you from progressing in either direction without having done stuff on the other end, and in the end you're need to complete all of 21-26F and B1-B7F to finish the plus storyline.
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So if nothing changed with what Validon mined a while ago in the trial, there's
B8-11F and 27-30F
left for postgame and of course the endless corridor, assuming its not just filled with pushovers.
I just checked the devs twitter again and it seems we can expect some awakening skill balance changes in future patches, which reminds me, did you check if unlocked awakening skills carry over into NG+?
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Akyuu already has concentration before attacking, 3 base mp regen, and 1 mp regen per turn; she don't need no orb of earithin. But Super Incantation is holy wow. If you invest mag gems into her then, uh, damn. And that's one hilariously low library cost- the cheapest in the game was 40 or 41 before.
Serela, I was taking the high cost of Southern Cross(10 MP) and Execution(12MP) into account when I said that. Running out of MP is a situation that I don't want to run into is all, and Orb of Earthin just barely covers the cost of Execution. Since library costs are so low, maybe it's possible at that point to level up Akyuu's low affinities to 100, as well as throw a level in each of those 198 affinities to make them an even 200.
Also, the cheapest Library cost before Akyuu is Parsee at 38.
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Serela, I was taking the high cost of Southern Cross(10 MP) and Execution(12MP) into account when I said that. Running out of MP is a situation that I don't want to run into is all, and Orb of Earthin just barely covers the cost of Execution. Since library costs are so low, maybe it's possible at that point to level up Akyuu's low affinities to 100, as well as throw a level in each of those 198 affinities to make them an even 200.
Also, the cheapest Library cost before Akyuu is Parsee at 38.
It's not like anything's stopping you from grinding out all affinities for anyone else either - Akyuu can probably just do it a lot sooner.
Anyway, Akyuu use is probably going to fall into one of two camps. Camp one would be to use her as a buff bot and gamble for Desire for Greater Wisdom procs to make everyone immune to the next hit, with the passives she has carrying her otherwise. Honestly, this isn't a worhwhile use at all - her passives alone aren't strong enough to justify her existence, it's a very RNG reliant strategy, and you need some sort of TP battery just to sustain it because holy hell is it expensive. You could throw in a subclass to give her something to to, but, um. Almost all the subclasses are really bad insofar as "active skills" go so...
Camp two is to abuse Super Incantation and use her as a ultra nuke. This is going to entirely depend on what the formula is for Archmage or Ame-no-Murakumo's Protection's skills, but even if they're bad she's looking at, at worst, a 4.5x damage multiplier on any subclass offensive skill (practically speaking this is about half that thanks to concentration's delay). Her starting MP's really good for this, which lets her use a TP equip to basically game her resurrection skill. Looking at the various subclasses, if Ame-no-Murakumo has physical scaling, and if Archmage has bad formulas, she's stuck with Sorcerer's Aspriation Surge, which is (196% mag - 70% t.mnd), and locks her into Mystic. While Hexer and Toxicologist could be potential options as sub-ins to abuse boss weaknesses, that's also kind of a pain so let's just compare her to Marisa for now.
When we compare Akyuu to Marisa for a pure damage output mage, we see that Marisa has better formulas, can attack from the word go, has access to the amazing Mystic Spark, has a much better time against multiple enemies and trash encounters, a buff, and basically higher damage over-all. At that point you're banking on Akyuu's supporting abilities, of which one's a gimmick, one's only relevant against bosses an only if you can be bothered to always abuse boss weaknesses, the ability to passively remove debuffs and status conditions at a fairly slow rate (which is still pretty nice), and better!resurrection. She's pretty sticky for a glass cannon and has a somewhat cheaper library cost, but all things considered and otherwise she's just a crappy Marisa, unless there's some seriously good formulas on the new subclass skills.
Most of this applies to everything before access to Archmage for ingame purposes, an as such Akyuu's probably going to dethrone Byakuren as "single worst person to take into a NG+." She's worthless before sublclasses and outclassed by absolutely everyone even after that. She has the same issue Rinnosuke has - sure, there's a decent library level and super high stats at play (in his case, via the high-boosts), but it's ultimately pointless because sub-class spell cards suck. I guess you could use her as a dumb slot 1 gimmick tank?
It's really disappointing, I was hoping to make a new run with Akyuu but it's gonna have to be a challenge run I guess. Hopefully Execution and Southern Cross have sufficently high values to make her worth it, otherwise she's going to fall into the same trap that Youmu and Offensive!Reimu did (The Concentrate --> Attack, Repeat loop being absolutely not worth it in light of more reliable options that can act from the word go and do more sustained DPS anyway).
Edit: Across the board the plus disc cast is kind of super weird in that they're all built around basically exclusively really long boss battles they can stay in and use their gimmicks on. Unless Endless Corridor random encounters get really rough, it feels like they were all made for a meta that this game frankly isn't in 90% of the time. I guess it's a sign of what kind of encounter types we can expect in those 999 floors.
Sadly from the perspective of NG+ this means that most of them are pretty boring, since their gimmicks that take so long to execute, and cost so much SP to get online...Even for the ones who have good skills outside of that, there's still very much a problem with them just being outright awkward to use.
It's kind of reinforcing a problem the game already had - so many abilities and skills are balanced around fights that simply do not make up the vast majority of play time. I guess that's why he made the endless corridor, and I hope that it winds up having battles that consistently go on long enough to actually utilize the new characters in their intended fashion, and not the usual "just spam your high powered skills in the most TP efficient way possible at the endless trash and wait for the few boss battles to use half your party."
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It's up on Melon DL. http://www.melonbooks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=IT0000192607
Also there's now an 1.100 patch for plus disk, to nobody's surprise I'm sure.
EDIT: 1.100 actually added some gameplay changes apparently. Bishamonten's Wrath is now capped at 100 and Overheat is capped at 5.
I'm late for the party, but yay, dling as we speak... Kind of a dumb question that may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it within the last few pages. But does this expansion rebalance the 'old' parts of the game at all? I'm kinda hoping it does but if not oh well. Does it provide new content during the normal portions of the game? Or is it all post game stuff only? Last, is it possible to play with the expansion with the old content remaining translated? I haven't played laby 2 for some time and I think I'll need the old translations in order to function since I completely forget what each spell does, what skillpoints are located where, etc.
Thank you for hunting down and sharing the link... err I had 52 melonbook points and it asked if I wanted to spend them but I couldn't figure out what they were for so I just didn't use em. I was guessing they were worth 52 cents or something since I almost never use melonbooks (in fact thlaby2 is the only time I DID use it I believe).
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Serela, I was taking the high cost of Southern Cross(10 MP) and Execution(12MP) into account when I said that. Running out of MP is a situation that I don't want to run into is all, and Orb of Earthin just barely covers the cost of Execution. Since library costs are so low, maybe it's possible at that point to level up Akyuu's low affinities to 100, as well as throw a level in each of those 198 affinities to make them an even 200.
Yeah, but you have to keep in mind you also have max mp. She already starts with a whopping 30, not to mention it'll be over like, 50 from the initial levelups. Concentrate+next turn with only her innate abilities will give her 10 mp. You're really not gonna keep her out so long she'll run out of mp using Super Incantation- that's only 2 mp every two turns from Execution, a move you'll likely want to switch her out after using anyway! (When elements allow she'd really want to sub for Start of Heavenly Demise, though)
At that point you can do more than turn her 198 affinities into 200, easy :P But yeah with her cheap library, raising her affinities shouldn't be too hard. Along with of course, equipment, since if you're going in on offense Akyuu you'd probably give her some of your sweeter gear too. If you really go in, Akyuu should be pretty awesome, but it'll be costly on gems. I'd probably just stick to using a normal glass cannon over a glass cannon that needs to concentrate before nukes. (You could swap her out after the concentrate too, I suppose, but now you're doubling the turns used for swapping her and it's like, why aren't you just using someone else)
You can also just dump a big TP main equip on her and resurrect through everything as she blasts away, but she'll only last so long. The resurrection is the main thing that makes her potentiallydurable after tweaking- if she can generally take hits, and resurrect the big ones, she'd be golden.
Last, is it possible to play with the expansion with the old content remaining translated?
I imagine you can throw in the translated img1 but that's probably it. The only thing that's been in any patch notes I've read about old content rebal is just that a few characters have new skills from the get-go; Kogasa, Cirno, Meiling, Keine, Youmu, Alice... and Utsuho's moves were powered up, along with Cat's Walk, Knock Out in Three Steps, and Flandre's first two moves were powered up whilst Lavaeteinn was powered down. Plus some bugfixes, like Fighting Spirit's damage reduction didn't used to work.
Edit: Across the board the plus disc cast is kind of super weird in that they're all built around basically exclusively really long boss battles they can stay in and use their gimmicks on. Unless Endless Corridor random encounters get really rough, it feels like they were all made for a meta that this game frankly isn't in 90% of the time. I guess it's a sign of what kind of encounter types we can expect in those 999 floors.
Whaaaaa? This only really applies to Shou... I don't know what you're talking about. Miko looks -awesome-, Futo looks pretty great, Mamizou's fine enough (only -special- after the corridor, admittedly), Koishi is solidly good looking (and wonderful if you're using earth spirits), Kokoro... a bit more confusing but she seems nice, and Tokiko looks very useful.
The only one who has a gimmick reliant on long fights is Shou. :S Futo only really needs at least 1 plate broken at any time (assuming defensive stance) and Miko synergy+infinite corridor skills let her start the fight near max plates almost immediately later on. So yeah, it's pretty much only Shou that needs a long fight. Mamizou has an 86% delay normal attack to get her elements with, should probably sub Sorc which makes that normal attack actually pretty nice DPS -anyway- with it's speed and Empowered Normal Attack, and once she lands on a boss weakness element (usually there's more then one, which means 25%+ chances) she never loses it for the rest of the fight.
In response to the wall about Akyuu... Akyuu is really weird but that's just to be expected. Also, we already have data on subclass attacks- Southern Cross and Execution are like 200~240% mag and Execution should have good mind piercing. Start of Heavenly Demise is like 350% mag which is amazing if she's fine with being locked into SPI. If you tweak Akyuu up a lot she would be pretty great, taking minor hits and resurrecting through big ones whilst blasting with big skills, and works well with Renko's Start of Assault or whatnot for another 25% damage (As renko will be great for any single-big-nuke attacker). Buuuut you'd really need to invest into it for her to be worth any hassle compared to just using Marisa or Suwako or something for glass cannoning, it's true. (Hmm... Start of Heavenly Demise could even give Suwako an alternate nuke when NTR is resisted.)
Meanwhile her support might be pretty useful in boss fights with telegraphed evil moves ("Oh no, it concentrated- lets make two people invincible and Akyuu tanks it herself with 12 tp"), and her status invincibility skill looks pretty useful overall- cheap, targets the whole front row, only 10% chance to wear off... you could have that up a lot in a fight where it was necessary. Irresistable PAR effects have been mentioned a lot, now that'd be something you want to resist- or megapowered DTH attacks.
There are still some tough nuts to crack in plus like Diamond Knight or Grandgon (although the former resists SPI), and Kaguya could be helpful against those. Also until you hit the plus disk postgame, pretty much every basement floor is filled with SPI-weak enemies and Kaguya could do major damage to them. Outspeeding things is a concern but you could have Aya or Rinno with SPD bonus or a brigade of Monks to switch her in.
Party design is hard with this ridiculously huge cast. ;_; Although I'm not worried about "it's weak to SPI!", I'll just keep in mind someone -else's- SPI attacks will get plenty of use, I don't want to use Aya and my party slots are in extreme high demand as it is @.@ I could always keep Kaguya's library levels as they are instead of Reincarnating them off and swap her in for a resistant boss here and there, I suppose. I'm NOT the kind of guy to swap my party around for specific bosses or areas in ThLaby, but people with a glass cannon build can do it with minimal investment, so I could do a couple characters for that.
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So if nothing changed with what Validon mined a while ago in the trial, there's B8-11F and 27-30F
left for postgame and of course the endless corridor, assuming its not just filled with pushovers.
I don't have access to the Plus Disk fully yet, but since the .exe is included in the 1.101 patch, I looked through that and 27-30F and B8F-B11F are still there, unchanged name-wise from what I've seen. Gonna assume those floors are the postgame floors.
I also kinda want to have a look at the bgm files just to extract/listen to the new music, but eh, I'll probably be able to get it soon (I just have to figure out how to use Melonbooks, dunno if I can buy anything on that with an American credit card lel)
EDIT: Nevermind, figured it out, oh boy here we go.
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Hmm... for those who wish to use Moriya Team, Sanae's spi damage boost might work pretty well with Start of Heavenly Demise... although with it's delay it doesn't entirely outclass her natural SPI skill, but if you can soon swap her, it makes Sanae look more worthwhile of a character to keep using after Byakuren and Renko outclass her support. Actually, that's an amusing thought; corridor already gives her MP regen for the whole party, if she used Murakamo's MP suck the rest of the party would at worst break even (if lower mp, still regaining some) whilst Sanae became the infinite mp fountain. :V That would be funnier if she had better ways to spend it, but Byakuren already buffs with infinite mp and Start of Heavenly Demise is pretty high delay. At least she could afford to use it freely. If you -really- wanted, Support!Sanae could probably replace Byakuren like that... it seems workable if you're running Moriya Team so she's got increased stats; using a buff every turn on the rest of the party means she could even afford to use Murakumo's buff sucker to keep her own buffs up without a turn... and occasionally, World Shaking Military Rule.
...why am I doing this and why does it sound like it'd work perfectly fine. Of course, it's certainly easier to just use Byakuren, but if you wanted to be different it actually sounds nearly as good. Can always mix n' match Murakamo passives like have Sanae just rely on her own mp regen- boosts up to 2 when she's below half mp and she's got expansion of consciousness, so she'd be the tank that slowly pumps the party's mp whilst buff spamming still, boosting SPI damage, super youkai buster, etc. Hmm. Doesn't seem half bad, actually, and she could even get away with subbing something else... (Although I think Murakamo is her best option)
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So, my run of LoT2+ begins with my old Team 9 file. Probably what I'm gonna do is have it be "Team 9 + Plus Disk party members", which will be... tricky, but doable. Managed to get past the Shadow Onis fight, so now I'm on to B2F. Haven't cleared the trial content myself so I'm looking forward to see what the rest of the first Depths stratum is like.
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AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH (http://puu.sh/t8Sks/a7bf90d2b4.png)
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In the depths of the flesh stratum, no one can hear you scream.
...Meanwhile, just beat Shadow Kogasa, good god why that gimmick. Took Healer on Rumia and Wriggle and lucky procs of that 50% chance "cure all status effects on heal" thing off of Demarcation to win. I imagine that is much easier to deal with in a full party of 12, eheh.
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Ooops, I forgot about Akyuu's new active spell from corridor. Yeah the group boost spell is still there; it's 34% at level 1 and 50% at level 5. Postuse is 6000.
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Anyone else with active spells from corridor? It would be nice if there was a list of active spells that you can get from the endless corridor. (Apologies if I sounded selfish, I'm just really curious and longing for a single spot where people can look to for the info is all...)
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I posted the info for everyone's corridor skills on page 6 I think. Kasen gets a weird self-buff, Remilia gets an target all DRK attack, and Yuuka gets MASTER SPARK (although its power is different from Marisa's version and also doesn't drain extra MP). I also checked the four other non-trial plus members and they don't get new active skills.
Also even more AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH (http://puu.sh/t9ktX/ae26c5ed5b.png)
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The name of B9F is "The Altar of Carrion that Hates Everyone", or something to that effect. I wonder if that's supposed to mean "this is the floor where we piss you off". :V
Meanwhile, got through down to B5F and started up on 22F. Futo was painful but Team 9 pulled through as always... kinda. I dunno how painful it's gonna be continuing on with a synergy run like this but it's been working so far.
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That reminds me of EO1's 29F which had a Japanese floor name that means something like "Those who scream in despair from doubts in their own memories" (the English version cut that down to "Half-mad from Self Doubt". Honestly I think this floor is worse since I can't see anything other than the tile I'm standing on; EO at least always gives you vision of what's in front of you...
EDIT: I just found out that once you have obtained the first copy of a corridor item, you can trade for more of them with infinity gems (at a rate of 12 gems per item). So this is probably meant to be how you collect 50 copies of all items you need instead of going through like 9000 floors of endless corridor (which was even worse at jewel of awakening rate than I thought; it seem that every 30 floors you encounter a non-shadow boss that drops some equipment instead of jewel of awakening so you'd have to go through 170 floors to get skills for your entire party)
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That moment you look up the 12F Tenshi fight theme and then decide to see how things are going.
So it's finally out eh? Nice, might rekindle the fire to play this again...if I find time that is.
Edit: Are there any new music tracks added into the Plus Disk? Curious to see if there's any new good tracks for this game.
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I posted the info for everyone's corridor skills on page 6 I think. Kasen gets a weird self-buff, Remilia gets an target all DRK attack, and Yuuka gets MASTER SPARK (although its power is different from Marisa's version and also doesn't drain extra MP). I also checked the four other non-trial plus members and they don't get new active skills.
So that thing about a Spell called Precise Information that heals and sometimes cures status ailments isn't in there? People said that it was a Rinnosuke Spell, but from its very name, I would think that it would be one of Akyuu's spells instead, meaning that she would get a healing spell, and considering that she has Super Incantation to super-charge it in the same way that Reimu could use Grand Incantation with her multi-target heal, maybe this leads into more of a support Akyuu if it was there?
EDIT: I just found out that once you have obtained the first copy of a corridor item, you can trade for more of them with infinity gems (at a rate of 12 gems per item). So this is probably meant to be how you collect 50 copies of all items you need instead of going through like 9000 floors of endless corridor (which was even worse at jewel of awakening rate than I thought; it seem that every 30 floors you encounter a non-shadow boss that drops some equipment instead of jewel of awakening so you'd have to go through 170 floors to get skills for your entire party)
Well, that's a major relief. Now earning skills is more a matter of getting those infinity gems after you get the first item and all that. That's good to know.
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So that thing about a Spell called Precise Information that heals and sometimes cures status ailments isn't in there?
It is indeed a Rinnosuke spell. It heals 20% max hp at max, so even if you sub healer or enchanter, it's not that strong, and it costs a good chunk of mp. I say enchanter, because his other skill makes support skills buff by 15% all stats. If that makes Battle Command a 30% buff, that's fairly useful for it's delay, and in postgame he'll have atk/mag boost for First Aid to heal decently; he could become pretty nice support, the only problem is Keine is stealing his thunder with 9999atb swaps.
Also, yeah, that's a major relief about the 50 item copies.
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Earning skills is still about obtaining Jewel of Greater Awakenings from corridor bosses. You can only trade gems for the specific items which you already have, so obtaining 50 copies of those items (for the damage infliction and reduction bonus) is about spending gems instead.
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Aaaaand I'm done with what we have of the plus disk right now. There's still half of B10F that I haven't explored yet (because it's a huge teleporter maze) and of course infinite corridor, but that's it so far since I haven't seen an up staircase on 27F (which I explored completely) or down staircase on B10F.
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How far are you in the corridor anyway? And what levels are the monsters there, as a reference point? o:
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I feel like I'm playing a different game than you are, Serela, since everything outside of bosses looks like "Use one, maybe two nukes, swap out those nukers when they run out of MP, repeat for 20+ battle chains consistently whilst exploring" for me. I don't even get the single turn in 99% of fights to actually use any buffs, much less a turn to say, set up a plate and then another to break it, the 1500 delay that Kokoro needs to swap to her first (3000 to swap to the second if you're using her in a mixed party) mask, etc.
Maybe I'm just playing the game the wrong way...? I'm not getting much use out of most subclasses either, the only attractive thing about any of them to me is the passives, I don't think I've used any actives aside from shield bash Kogasa...? And even then some of them just see no use at all in my parties, like Herbalist.
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At 63F corridor I'm seeing things in the range of around 330-430 or so.
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Earning skills is still about obtaining Jewel of Greater Awakenings from corridor bosses. You can only trade gems for the specific items which you already have, so obtaining 50 copies of those items (for the damage infliction and reduction bonus) is about spending gems instead.
Oh. Oops... :blush:
It is indeed a Rinnosuke spell. It heals 20% max hp at max, so even if you sub healer or enchanter, it's not that strong, and it costs a good chunk of mp. I say enchanter, because his other skill makes support skills buff by 15% all stats. If that makes Battle Command a 30% buff, that's fairly useful for it's delay, and in postgame he'll have atk/mag boost for First Aid to heal decently; he could become pretty nice support, the only problem is Keine is stealing his thunder with 9999atb swaps.
Personally, I think that Precise Info is a waste of a skill for Rinnosuke, and it should of been given to Akyuu instead. That way, she can turn it into a 85% Max HP heal at max level, and that's before subclasses(Healer comes to mind here), which could easily raise it to a 100% HP cure, which would be very nice if you focused on raising her speed and defenses.
I feel like I'm playing a different game than you are, Serela, since everything outside of bosses looks like "Use one, maybe two nukes, swap out those nukers when they run out of MP, repeat for 20+ battle chains consistently whilst exploring" for me. I don't even get the single turn in 99% of fights to actually use any buffs, much less a turn to say, set up a plate and then another to break it, the 1500 delay that Kokoro needs to swap to her first (3000 to swap to the second if you're using her in a mixed party) mask, etc.
Maybe I'm just playing the game the wrong way...? I'm not getting much use out of most subclasses either, the only attractive thing about any of them to me is the passives, I don't think I've used any actives aside from shield bash Kogasa...? And even then some of them just see no use at all in my parties, like Herbalist.
The sort of sounds like how I play the main game(minus the plates and Kokoro, since I don't have the demo for plus disk, and would rather want until the full plus disk is available to play that part). Spells like Flame Sword, Iron Mountain Charge, Herb of Awakening and the spells in Enhancer and Healer are all that I use, really.
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Well, Precise Info does synergy with Real Original Owner of Ame-no-Murakumo, so it's more about giving an entire party 15% all buff, and the heal is just something on the side like enchanter character's group buffs.
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I feel like I'm playing a different game than you are, Serela, since everything outside of bosses looks like "Use one, maybe two nukes, swap out those nukers when they run out of MP, repeat for 20+ battle chains consistently whilst exploring" for me. I don't even get the single turn in 99% of fights to actually use any buffs, much less a turn to say, set up a plate and then another to break it, the 1500 delay that Kokoro needs to swap to her first (3000 to swap to the second if you're using her in a mixed party) mask, etc.
...yeah but aren't these characters nearly as good as the others when it comes to basic random fights? Futo gets to start with plates after awakening and that gives her the durability+damage bonus in randoms, Mamizou has plenty of strong alltargets and won't easily go down before her turn, etc.
Yeah, most tactics are only used in boss fights. But random battles aren't terribly difficult either, you can use most characters for them just fine. Randoms aren't that hard, but if you can't beat the boss you're not gonna progress in the game. Nothing really changed there :S I thought you were talking about shorter boss fights vs. longer boss fights, or just characters that needed a lot of time to get ramped up in bosses.
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How do I get past the rock on B5F that's near the relay circle to access the boss and how to go past the rock on B6F?
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To confirm with what RegalStar's said in terms of what's there postgame-wise, there is no data currently for floors 28F-30F or B11F in the files, so yeah, that's more or less it for the time being. Well, we didn't exactly get the main game's postgame fully until a later patch, looks to be the same here. We'll probably get them sooner or later.
One thing I am curious about is where a lot of the music in the new bgm file plays. I can only place like ten or so songs, 16 of which I don't know where they play at all. Not sure why there's so much music, but there we go?
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could be that some of them haven't been used yet? the main theme for the shadow bosses was in the game ever since the beginning, but wasn't used until plus disc
do you plan to upload them later?
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While it makes sense that several themes would be for super postfinal bosses/floors or really far in the infinite corridor... even so, 16 is a surprising amount. Well, can't complain about more music <3
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About what level do you need to be to start the Plus Disk stuff? I am wondering if I should bother doing all the vanilla Post-Game stuff first, or if I can just dive in and use the Plus Disk stuff as an excuse to level up.
e: Oh also, is there anywhere that has compiled all the changes to the main game? Character skills, subclass skills, etc. I can vaguely remember a few but I cant keep them all in my head at the same time, so it'd be nice to have them all in one place.
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About what level do you need to be to start the Plus Disk stuff? I am wondering if I should bother doing all the vanilla Post-Game stuff first, or if I can just dive in and use the Plus Disk stuff as an excuse to level up.
e: Oh also, is there anywhere that has compiled all the changes to the main game? Character skills, subclass skills, etc. I can vaguely remember a few but I cant keep them all in my head at the same time, so it'd be nice to have them all in one place.
As for main game changes, I think I got them all in this snippet
The only thing that's been in any patch notes I've read about old content rebal is just that a few characters have new skills from the get-go; Kogasa, Cirno, Meiling, Keine, Youmu, Alice... and Utsuho's moves were powered up, along with Cat's Walk, Knock Out in Three Steps, and Flandre's first two moves were powered up whilst Lavaeteinn was powered down. Plus some bugfixes, like Fighting Spirit's damage reduction didn't used to work.
Along with Byakuren's Duplicating Scroll changing so that at +100% of all her own stats, she doles out about 56% buff at lv5 scroll. However it also functions as a normal buff, instead of setting your stats to 56%. All her sutras were also nerfed to 12% instead of 14%, so Strategist Byakuren does -slowly- decay in buffs now instead of perma-100%. She's still an incredible buffer and pretty much the best option, just... not quite as insanely so as before.
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How do I get past the rock on B5F that's near the relay circle to access the boss and how to go past the rock on B6F?
If you mean those colored ices, you need to find special items elsewhere on the floor to break them. 蒼の衝撃符 are used to break blue rocks, and 紫の衝撃符 are used to breka purple rocks.
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All her sutras were also nerfed to 12% instead of 14%
The descriptions are changed to 12%, but they actually still buff by 14%.
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...So for whatever reason, my save file for achievements got borked somehow and I was getting none of the Plus Disk achievements, so I went into my save file and discovered that both achievement 1 and all of the Plus Disk achievements were marked with a garbage flag instead of 0x0/0x1/0x2, so I went and fixed that.
(https://i.gyazo.com/c783ce04894febcb8c95ed5d40fbf60e.png)
Whelp, cue me getting a bunch of stuff all at once. Thanks game. :V
EDIT:
(https://i.gyazo.com/c3edd7bbd1c06c8579004ccc0befa859.png)
Grinding 25F over and over for gems since I screwed up a bunch earlier and forgot that clearing a floor of all chests also gave you gems, and uh... huh. Didn't think you could get ten at once from one chest (note: this was from a rank three chest opened with a key)
EDIT 2: Oh, uh, quick question: how do you unblock the rocks on B7F that lead to what I assume is the Shadow Moriya fight?
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I've seen up to 20 from a chest once from rank 4 chests. Still, "farming" for those things is still a real pain; if you can stand the boredom of killing Murakumo over and over again I'd recommend that for farming stat gems instead of farming infinity gems to do so.
EDIT: To get past that rock you need to finish constructing the five element circle on 23F and 24F (basically trigger 5 events). In turn, you need to beat up all the shadows between B1F and B7F before you can get past the rock on 24F that lets you ascend to 25F.
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Just out of curiosity, but... are characters which don't have any family boosts still competitive, despite the whole Proof of Kinship thing? One of my favourite TH2 chars was Yuuka, but I wonder if she still can find a spot on the team with all the new changes. I still wish to see her reducing enemies to mists of atoms ♥
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Of course! Most of the families only even have 3 members, which makes the boost nice, but not critical. It's only 9 team and Earth Spirits that have crazy high boosts (and tbh earth spirits characters could kinda use the help to be competitive), and several SDM members are a little underwhelming -unless- you're running the whole team. And 9 team gets a minor passive for non-family so you can get away with running 'em solo.
Perhaps even more importantly, you're only going to have a handful of Awakened characters until super endgame, as far as I can tell. And the ones without family boosts still often have very nice corridor skills instead of Proof of Kinship.
Yuuka continues to look like a nice bulky attacker. If anything she's better off because there's less of the original postgame's issue with all the bosses having really high defenses, and because she's got more elemental variety, even more with subclasses; and she's a character more potentially able to use subclass moves as her innate ones have lowish formulas instead powered by her stats/selfbuffs/extra attack. Yuuka could really do some work with postgame sub skills, especially considering her high attack stat (or, for the composites, her high combo of both atk -and- mag).
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Sorry, Victim of Reimu and Marisa's Brutality maxes at level 2. The level 4 skill is the one that increase chance of Reading.
Oh, and Beauty of Nature is WND-elemental now.
Also, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (http://puu.sh/t7kfo/6a2d8c0b57.png)
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:ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear: :ohdear:
Late to the party but oh god the horror!
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Late to the party but oh god the horror!
B7F dark areas are nothing compared to the HUGE mostly dark half of a floor on B9F. See all those green tiles? All of them are dark. And the single flower tiles are slippery. (http://puu.sh/tbDw4/c45d069011.png) It took me an entire evening to get through this whole mess. (At least when the English patch comes out, there should be maps on atwiki so most people don't have to actually do this themselves)
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I look forward to interesting exploration. The original lot2 postgame's "Extra" floors... urgh, the downwards ones are just a super boring slog through nothing. The bottommost one doesn't even have a boss or anything, it's just a few pieces of equipment to find. Thank god the upwards ones are better. Partially because it's faster; all the holes you hop through and floor changing means less fights so it goes faster.
I'm also a masochist, though. I EMBRACE ETRIAN POSTGAME STYLE DUNGEON DESIGN :D
LoT1 plus disk had balance issues and heavy grinding, but several of the floors were pretty neat. The unfloor'd floor was kind of annoying to find treasure in, admittedly, but it was hilarious and neat, and the one-way-trips floor (28f?) was fun to struggle with and figure out. I was kind of disappointed LoT2 didn't have any smoother floor mechanics like one-way-walls that LoT1 did, instead using heavyhanded vague arrow warp tiles for -any- unusual tile movement, as opposed to a slide, one-way-wall, etc. Looks like Plus does better on that end.
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Of course! Most of the families only even have 3 members, which makes the boost nice, but not critical. It's only 9 team and Earth Spirits that have crazy high boosts (and tbh earth spirits characters could kinda use the help to be competitive), and several SDM members are a little underwhelming -unless- you're running the whole team. And 9 team gets a minor passive for non-family so you can get away with running 'em solo.
Perhaps even more importantly, you're only going to have a handful of Awakened characters until super endgame, as far as I can tell. And the ones without family boosts still often have very nice corridor skills instead of Proof of Kinship.
Yuuka continues to look like a nice bulky attacker. If anything she's better off because there's less of the original postgame's issue with all the bosses having really high defenses, and because she's got more elemental variety, even more with subclasses; and she's a character more potentially able to use subclass moves as her innate ones have lowish formulas instead powered by her stats/selfbuffs/extra attack. Yuuka could really do some work with postgame sub skills, especially considering her high attack stat (or, for the composites, her high combo of both atk -and- mag).
That is great to know! And what about Sanae? In the original TH2, I found her TP passive to be so good that I had little reason not to include her (and Suwako, and Kanako) on the team. Is her passive still that good in the plus disk? I wouldn't mind replacing her altogether, honestly :-) (maybe with some favourites of mine like Yuuka, Youmu/Yuyuko, Renko/Maribel, etc.)
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I would say that her TP restorative isn't so good for normal game any more, since 1) your characters are more likely to have massively larger TP pools from better equipment and more skill points to throw points in TP boost, and 2) plus disk encounters are engineered to be tough (with high payouts to compensate), it's less likely that you can avoid having higher-than-1 TP loss per battle most of the time, so 1 TP per battle is no longer as useful as it used to be. However, if you're looking for consecutive floor clears on endless corridor because you want a Machine God Lucifer or something, then her TP restoration becomes vitally important for that purpose. That being said, I do not recommend doing something like that until you've completely finished everything that the normal game has to offer (including future plus disk contents), since getting your team completely awakened and extra stat'd (from boosting items and skills) are more important than a single piece of excellent sub-equip.
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Since a new patch was mentioned, I looked through it and saw the one about the chest that had 0 yen in it. I figured it was a bug, but still. :V
Also, something about fixing experience and money gains in the Endless Corridor? I figured they were kind of too small when nearing enemy levels in the 300s, but I thought that was just to say "hey don't grind here do your grinding in the Depths or the Terminus" (Terminus being what I'm calling the new above-ground floors, since they're "the end of the Great Tree" as mentioned in 27F's floor title)
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I'm pretty sure that it's only meant for monsters that get really high level (because of the "repeatedly loop last floor = enemies still get gradually stronger" thing). Endless corridor monsters giving far less experience than normal monsters should be normal since it means that there won't be a lot of level difference between players who clear the place and players who don't; it's only a sidequest after all.
(Also IIRC B10F monsters are both easier to deal with and more rewarding than 27F monsters)
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Alright, "final boss" of the story down for the count courtesy of Team 9. That's that I guess.
...Though, oddly enough, I've missed Kokoro apparently. I have all four masks, but I dunno what to do with them now to get her.
EDIT: ...Nevermind, she's just standing right there at the beginning of 24F. Well then I'm stupid.
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Thanks for the answers! Ah another thing: assuming somebody knows, but... should we expect an English patch before the major patch announced for around February (the one extending the limits for the Endless Corridor past 999 etc.) or are we gonna wait until that?
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So from the new text dump, the WINNER subclass has gotten one more toy to play with:
Medicine of Life
Cost 5 MP Single Target: NTR Auxillary Action
Subclass spell that recovers a small amount of HP to the user.
If used while TP is 16 or more, it will consume 16 TP to fully heal HP and MP.
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repeatedly loop last floor = enemies still get gradually stronger
I had no idea, let me take back my disappointment about the endless corridor not being endless.
major patch announced for around February (the one extending the limits for the Endless Corridor past 999 etc.)
I think 999 will be the limit if I got that right.
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Oh, if anyone wants a "full NG+" file, including all the Plus Disk characters, I've thrown one together, problem being that you'll end up getting the +20000 yen from the game considering you to have beaten the Deformed bosses as with usual when starting with Renko and Maribel, but eh, that's always been a problem with using an NG+ file. But yeah, all 56 characters from the get-go NG+ style, enjoy.
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Oh, if anyone wants a "full NG+" file, including all the Plus Disk characters, I've thrown one together, problem being that you'll end up getting the +20000 yen from the game considering you to have beaten the Deformed bosses as with usual when starting with Renko and Maribel, but eh, that's always been a problem with using an NG+ file. But yeah, all 56 characters from the get-go NG+ style, enjoy.
Hmmm? Perhaps you should start a normal ingame NG+ and then edit in the plus disk characters?
Because even in the current english patch version, if you NG+ you get Renko/Maribel without any such glitch. I just tested it.
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Nah, even if you start from a fresh file, editing the save in any way after still triggers those achievements.
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Hmm, I see. Well, he'll probably add in a proper final NG+ eventually. Like after he finishes making the rest of the game :V
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Anyone know which page details the full patch note of buffs and nerfs to existing characters?
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Anyone know which page details the full patch note of buffs and nerfs to existing characters?
Unfortunately, all that stuff is all over the place. It'd probably be a good idea to compile all the changes in one place and then push them to the wiki in some way, since people are more likely than not to use that as a source of info, they're just scattered all over the place. Along those lines, seems like no one has really done anything on the JP wiki either other than the trial stuff, so not even that's a good source right now.
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I'm not sure if there were any further changes to existing characters ever since the trial, but there's this. I'm not sure if the additonal skills listed were awakening skills or normal ones, or a mix of both either.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1231810.html#msg1231810
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Those are all not awakening skills. In addition, since then new Not-Awakening skills have been added for Kogasa, Keine, Youmu, and Meiling. I believe that plus the linked page is the total of all changes. He says he may have tinkered with other base stats, but back then, I checked many characters and couldn't find any differences, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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Even though there's more experience to be found in the third Depths stratum, 27F is still pretty decent since enemies can drop HP/MP/TP stat gems from what I notice, so for now while I'm still at like, B8F/B9F, 27F is pretty solid for getting my team up. Just need to get a bunch of keys because holy hell there's locked chests everywhere.
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enemies can drop HP/MP/TP stat gems from what I notice
aaaaaaaa
I imagine the drop rate isn't very high, but what kind of numbers are we lookin' at here? Thankfully the bestiary has exact %s in this game.
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From 27F
Massive Kedama - Life Gem 3.0%
Emerald Sword Demon - DEF Gem 6.0%
Tentacle Flower of Dark Sky - MND Gem 5.0%
Exa Grain - TP Gem 4.8%
Kedama Hermit Sage - MP Gem 8.0%
From B10F
Abyss Naga - Life Gem 6.4%
OK so I guess 27F is better for grinding after all because of those gems
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Yeah, I've been getting them fairly often, but then again my team's very, very high level at this point, like maybe too high.
Speaking of high level stuff
(https://i.gyazo.com/6eec5bbc0daefef848110cdb099ad775.png)
Not only notice my party level, but also "holy damn I got a Togakuwa Doubling Gold without having to grind up the insane Seven Star Dust requirement"
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Congrats!
...what does "Togakuwa Doubling Gold" do again?
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MP+12, TP+12, All stats base value+1.2 (not as awesome as it would be in non-plus, since base value boosters are a lot more common in plus).
And it turns out that 90F guardian of endless corridor is Shadow Kogasa instead of Serpent of Chaos
. I have no idea how this guardian sequence works any more.
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It's still a sizable MP and TP boost, I'd say that's worth it.
Meanwhile:
(https://i.gyazo.com/17079843cbf96e75828755314f478ec7.png)
WE'RE IN FOR IT NOW, HAVE MERCY ON ME GAME.
EDIT: Well, I got all the Jet Black Fragments, and I decided to see what the level 760ish boss icon was. I was instantly crushed. Yeaaaah that'll be for later when I'm not 500ish. Still have to take on the last boss that's hanging around B10F but that involves doing the teleporter maze and I kinda don't feel like it after doing the rest of the third Depths stratum, at least not today.
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-All- stats +1.2 is still pretty good, esp. on characters with big %age stat bonuses like 9 team.
>level 760 boss icon
WELP
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I'm not sure if there were any further changes to existing characters ever since the trial, but there's this. I'm not sure if the additonal skills listed were awakening skills or normal ones, or a mix of both either.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1231810.html#msg1231810
Thanks for the input! At least that covers some of it. Right now I'm trying to fight Parsee and Hina shadows.
Come to think of it, how high should my library levels be at this point? Most character of mine has like 150 to their stats, with some exceptions like Flan and Kaguya and Patchouli who I invested much more in. I'm not feeling the investment on Patchouli was that good though :(
And comparing tanks, is there a situation that I should use Tenshi over Komachi unless it's for Iku combo?
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Tenshi is honestly only a good tank if you need her buff clearing. Or maybe for the physical damage reduction. But really, if you don't need the buff clearing, the only reason is Iku synergy. Other people can compare in tankiness with much more useful support abilities- just having nice def/mnd isn't enough in ThLaby2.
...is komachi -really- that good of a tank? I keep hearing about it, but it still feels dubious to me. How often does she need to be healed?
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Komachi's okay I guess? But yeah she does kinda need to be healed often.
...In any case, B10F bosses all down, time to do nothing but Endless Corridor until the February patch. Team 9 right now is stupidly overpowered and that's mostly my fault but that's okay by me for the time being. I'm just curious now as to how crazy stuff gets in the lower depths of the Endless Corridor.
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Hmm, I reach the endless corridor. Can anyone list out the options when you reach a green exclamation mark in English? It'll be a great help!
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If there are four options; first option opens it with seven star seals (depending on the number of exclamation marks on the chest you need 20, 40, 80, 160 or 320 to open them); second option opens it with a key; third option forcibly opens it without offering anything (and cause the item to become crap); fourth option leaves it alone. If there are only two options then you can just open it without any cost by picking the first choice.
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If there are four options; first option opens it with seven star seals (depending on the number of exclamation marks on the chest you need 20, 40, 80, 160 or 320 to open them); second option opens it with a key; third option forcibly opens it without offering anything (and cause the item to become crap); fourth option leaves it alone. If there are only two options then you can just open it without any cost by picking the first choice.
Thanks a lot! Anyone got a wiki account? Someone should put the translations on the page.
I've seen your youtube videos and you seem to level really fast. Is there any better place to grind besides 20F? Since in last 20 or so hours some bosses like shadow mokou, keine and futo was taking me hours to beat them.
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The plus disk floors are all like 20F depths (strong encounters that give lots of rewards), so you should just grind at whatever floors you can reach.
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Question: How can you guys tell it's a level 760 boss? The challenge level icon's 370 - or is chalenge level just half of the boss level?
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I'm pretty sure that the challenge level of that boss IS 760. It's the one on B4F hiding behind a rock that needs all 56 black fragments to pass.
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The boss itself is level 799, with a challenge level of 760 or so, on B4F. It's way harder than
Ura Yamato no Orochi
, which meanwhile is roughly I'd say challenge level 500ish despite having ??? as the challenge level. Definitely not something to be done even if you've cleared every floor you can possibly clear, it'd take a loooot of grinding to get to the point to beat it (since in my rough estimates most people should be roughly level 500ish by the end of the current Plus Disk content).
I'm gonna assume that it drops the fourth Plus Disk seal like the other B1F-B4F bonus bosses, which IIRC is gonna unlock something on B11F, if I recall the old datamined description for it (the descriptions for the third and fourth seals were changed to say "I wonder where these are used..." or something like that).
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So I have both Labyrinth of Touhou 2 and Labyrinth of Touhou 2 Plus Disk, and when I copied over the contents of Plus Disk to the original Labyrinth of Touhou 2 folder and click the plus disk exe, the game starts up but with no sound. However, when I click the original exe it has sound. Any idea why this is happening? I'm on Windows 10.
EDIT
I reset both folders to how they were before I dragged over plus disk content etc.
EDIT 2
Nevermind, turns out the volume was just super low.
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The volume scale is changed in Plus Disk, so the setting used for the normal game is basically inaudible. Overall it's a good change, but they probably should have reset the default or something so everyone didn't think their game was muted.
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How do I access the remainder of B10F? I've only accessed the part that contained two boss icons, but not the area that will allow me to reach
Ura Yamato no Orochi
. Unless I have to discover yet another item.
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IIRC, you need to activate the last possible switch on 27F that you can activate, which requires getting past the "have all 56 Jet Black Fragments" rock that's up there.
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Apparently there's a couple of patches out.
http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2P/download.html
Any significant changes?
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According to google translate it's all minor tweaks and bugfixes. Apart from the change on full version release iirc, where Overheat is limited to Lv5 and Bishamonten's Rage is limited to Lv100. It also notes something that's present in the earlier trial versions, where passives that make you counter no longer reset your ATB to 7000 (which used to make it so you never wanted to learn them)
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So besides new characters, what other changes were brought in Plus Disk? I notice that Youmu seems to have a new passive...
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Additional floors, floor-related events and bosses, and items.
Gambler nerf to the ground.
New subclasses.
Some character stats were shuffled.
Several characters got new skills.
A procedurally generated, theoretically infinitely extending dungeon. (Although you're "stuck" on 101F at the present, all it means is that the counter doesn't go up yet and you will instead loop at 101F. The limit will be raised at a future date because the guardians every 10 floor are apparently not procedurally generated.
By clearing said dungeon you can obtain even more skills for every character old and new. Some are skills that were already present, but many are brand new skills.
New set of bugs.
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> Gambler nerfed to the ground
Rip Flandre
Is there a complete comprehensive list of all changes?
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It's been 6 floors and no Koishi/Kokoro... :ohdear:
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I forgot where Koishi is but it's somewhere on 22-24F. You also must have triggered three events with her beforehand; the one on 21F is kind of hard to find. Kokoro you can't get until a good deal into the 23-24F quest.
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> Gambler nerfed to the ground
Rip Flandre
Not so, friend. Flandre was granted defense piercing in her spells to compensate for the Gambler nerf. Personally, 3peso should of just replaced the subclass entirely if he was going to nerf Gambler this hard.
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I forgot where Koishi is but it's somewhere on 22-24F. You also must have triggered three events with her beforehand; the one on 21F is kind of hard to find. Kokoro you can't get until a good deal into the 23-24F quest.
Ahhhhh... that explains why...
I was searching in the underground floors... and now I got her!
Now... let's see where's Kokoro...
EDIT: Found her, thanks :3
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Gambler is still a good subclass for a -few- characters (Suwako, one of the best glass cannon choices in the game along w/Marisa but marisa probably shouldn't gamble 'cause ow master spark mp cost), but, it's scope is rather limited now, especially considering glass cannon is a much less desirable role in this game compared to thlaby1 due to fast bosses and most characters being bulky attacker capable in at least -one- of def or mind. And yeah, Flandre was buffed up in exchange for the gambler nerf.
Should get easier to use glass cannons in postgame with Keine's 9999 atb swap in though. Without that, Rinnosuke is still an option with 9300 (right?) swap-in without spending a corridor awakening on anyone. Without either... using glassy characters is problematic.
Is there a complete comprehensive list of all changes?
At this rate we need to write it all in a wiki page or have something linked in the first post or something. Anyway. This has the changes in the initial trial.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1231810.html#msg1231810
In addition, Kogasa, Keine, Meiling, and Youmu have received new passive skills since then. Most character's awakening skills in the infinite corridor are pretty strong, and some can be character-changing. As for what every new skill does... jeez, that's a big list at this point x.x
This does link all the awakening skills, though, minus a new spellcard for Rinnosuke.
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20421.msg1299914.html#msg1299914
Pages 6 and 7 of the thread have base stat/formula data for the new plus disk characters/subclasses we didn't have earlier, which are listed earlier in. Pages 13~15 of the previous thlaby thread have their full passive/active skill lists, along with full item lists for Plus, achievement list, subclasses, a preliminary infinite corridor skill list that's relevant for including all the new non-corridor passives listed in the first linked post, etc. The unlisted skills... Kogasa has a big damage increase OR a big damage taken decrease on Fear'd enemies, Keine gets a stacking increase on her own def/mnd or atk/mag when she casts her buffs, Meiling gets a passive damage up or self-heal from a counter each time she takes a turn, and Youmu gets a weird nerfed version of Grand Incantation. Youmu is still a kinda bad character until her infinite corridor awakening, which makes her a lot better and makes her weird new passive a lot more useful.
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I've listed a few wrong description seen in the original game. Dunno if these have already been fixed in the latest version.
- Regenerador?s Heart increases PSN PAR TRR resistances by 50, not 24.
- Ribbon does not increase Elemental Resistance, only Status.
- Some achievement reward don't match up with the descriptions like winning 3000 battle was supposed to give you 2 Training Manual but it only gives 1.
Nitpicking: Dungeon Effect description in the option menu remains untranslated.
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Most of this applies to everything before access to Archmage for ingame purposes, an as such Akyuu's probably going to dethrone Byakuren as "single worst person to take into a NG+." She's worthless before sublclasses and outclassed by absolutely everyone even after that. She has the same issue Rinnosuke has - sure, there's a decent library level and super high stats at play (in his case, via the high-boosts), but it's ultimately pointless because sub-class spell cards suck. I guess you could use her as a dumb slot 1 gimmick tank?
idk, Rinnosuke has been a really solid tank for me for most of the main game. He's really skillpoint hungry so it's hard to notice at first, but once he gets going and you have HP/Element High Boosts he becomes super durable and his efficient switch skill is really great for frail attackers and speeds things up a lot in general. He does run into the problem of what else he wants to do on his turns if he doesn't want to switch since neither of his regular skills are super good, but Subclasses help with that. I'd go so far as to say he's probably my most effective tank, definitely more so than Tenshi.
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Btw, I was theorymonning a bit over the list of main/sub equips (while waiting for a dearly-awaited English Patch^^) and... it seems that unlike TH1 more thought needs to be put in order to come up with the ideal equipment, isn't it? In THL1 at the end, the best solution was simply to slap 3X Machine God Lucifer on every char, but unless for some reason you can get multiple "Source of Dragon God's Power", I'm not sure there's any THL2 equivalent. Even then, unlike THL1 MGL, which had nearly unparalleled stat multipliers, the Source is somewhat low compared to some giants like Medicine of Life or Magic Sword Chaos, so depending on the chars you might want to use something else.... so many possibilities to chew on^^
EDIT: And besides, the surprising variety of boosts from main equipments adds alone to the strategy depth. On the one hand, given the flexibility required for the Endless Corridor, perhaps more generic main equips like the stat boosting ones may be preferable. But on the other hand, some of the other bonuses (like increased stat infliction rate, damage boost vs weaknesses, the avoidance ring or w/e it's called, etc) seem very fitting for some specific chars. Moreover, the TP boosting items may be necessary, depending on how the Endless Corridor is structured, especially if one does not use Sanae on the team (I'm not sure on this one, perhaps somebody can give their input?). And finally, the xp and item drop boosting equips seem incredible for training purposes.
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The bigger thing in thlaby1 was that because of how bonuses stacked, most of your stat bonuses from equipment were kinda small at the end. (Also, if you ground for that many Machine God Lucifers in lot1, you had a major problem) That's why statuses were a non-problem in lot1 postgame, because the best solution was to equip everyone meant to take any hits to resist all of them. (Plus it was easier to do that than in lot2...) But in LoT2, equipment bonus comes later in the stat calculation, so their bonus remains pretty dang large... so what you put on -really- matters.
IIRC Laby2's MGL is still crazy but to get multiple you (probably) have to do super long Infinite Corridor trips in one go, because they're sold in the shop, but holy jesus is that price even realistically attainable? And yeah, I like putting exp boost gear on my slower leveling characters (BYAKUREEEEN)
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Well, I've reached around 70 WINNER kills in LoT1, so ofc I have my whole squad decked with Machine God Lucifer (I've also sold enough that now each one I sell gives me like, 41.2 million Skill points - sadly it can't go any higher). As for LoT2 MGL, it IS good, mind you, but the fact is, it gives you zero coverage vs status (which Ribbon alone no longer covers - and even if it could, is it really worth using it over one of the other, more powerful Main equips?), and leaves you open on several elements such as Fire, Cold, or Wind. Now, if affinities worked like in LoT1 (where even weak affinities like Utsuho's cold could be easily boosted to 200 or more) it wouldn't be a major problem. But in LoT2, affinities are boosted proportionally to their base value, so unless the weakness is mild, it can't get fixed much - which means, you absolutely need the help from equipments and passive skills to fix them.
Though tbh, I find this much more fun than just slapping the one equip to rule them all on everyone :-)
P.S.: Also, speaking of comparisons between LoT1 and LoT2... I'm really digging the variety of usable chars in LoT2 Plus Disk. In LoT1, if you wanted the perfect WINNER buster team, some team slots were absolutely fixed. There was next to no reason, for example, to not use:
Nitori (strongest single-target nuke in the game besides Lavatein, factoring stats and multipliers)
Shikieiki (strongest def ignoring nuke in the game, crucial to hit through Ball of Invincibility)
Reimu (best healer in the game hands down)
Suwako (strongest nuke in the game after Nitori, factoring stats and multipliers)
Yuyuko (strongest nuke in the game after Nitori and Suwako, factoring stats and multipliers)
Youmu (strongest nuke in the game after... etc)
The only slot where you had some room for messing around were the tank slot (where IMO it was a tossup between Keine and Yukari, maybe Rinnosuke though he counts more as a nuke with Shining Stars rather than a tank) and the secondary healer slot (though I still believe Minoriko is clearly the best one, as it's fast and powerful and can put up some decent damage if needed, even)
Now, ofc some of these MAY be questionable (mostly how many nukes/tanks/healers to use in the first place), but the fact that no passive skills or subclasses existed meant that it was very common for some chars to outclass others, especially since WINNER has no weaknesses. For example, as much as you may like Suika, her LoT1 self is clearly outclassed by a bunch of other chars. And chars which relied on faster attacks (like Remilia) are penalized by the fact that both Keine and Yukari reward you for using large delay heavy nukes.
In LoT2, on the other hand, while some chars feel a bit less viable than others, family boosts and unique passive skills + classing mean that it's much harder to find any chars which are sorely outclassed (I still doubt, say, Momiji cannot be outclassed even with the new Momiji/Aya/Nitori/Hina family, but it's not as rough as, say, LoT1 Mokou/Yuuka/Patchouli). Though who knows, maybe after playing long enough we'll end up figuring which families are strongest in the deep end game :-)
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For silly levels of Winner grinds I'd think Yuugi would be the tank, because she's got meiling-grade HP and DEF, and mind is pretty much completely replacable by affinities at that point. In other words, Yuugi with a full ATK build using nukes. Although, you're also the one with 70 kills @.@ I wanted to get many kills, but then the fight was just such a totally boring slog until the final phase that I seriously couldn't be bothered. I'd also have expected Ran in there, because at that point she can afford to use her def/mnd buff every turn and keep your buffs consistently at -very- high levels so you take rather low damage, but at that many kills, maybe surviving isn't the deal so much as simply finishing the slog of a fight. >_> Rinnosuke is kinda underwhelming in LoT1, too. For example Alice is almost flat-out superior, having used them both up through Winner in my last playthrough- Rinno had a little more DEF, but otherwise Alice beat him out across the board and did more damage. Rinno's damage in a full atk build was really sorta disappointing.
I'm really curious about your levels/a stat screenshot after the point of 70 kills, though >.> Trance did 100 but didn't have his save anymore so we couldn't see!
I think endgame viability is definitely far more flexible in this game. You say you think Momiji cannot compete, but she's one of the bulkiest characters in the game, boasts solid attack stats as well and several very nice passives, good base moves and useful corridor awakening (24% atk buff each time she attacks? she hardly even needs to get buffs refreshed!), and her corridor family skill involves three other very useful characters. A lot of them depend more on your party setup than whether or not they're actually a good character, since the more underwhelming ones generally have a good niche or powerful family skill.
But even so, there will be the end parties with the "better setups". You definitely have sweet levels of flexibility with who you want as your bulky attackers, if nothing else, though. There's much better flexibility when it comes to your support characters, but there's certainly going to be ones that are just a little bit better than the other options... for most parties. For example, Rinno is kinda outclassed by Keine after awakening, and his minor edges over her aren't important in the average endgame party I -think-, but if you're running Shou you may want to keep using Rinnosuke instead of her. And even Sanae can realistically play like Byakuren after awakening, and even have some advantages (albiet with some downsides, too).
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Well, I've reached around 70 WINNER kills in LoT1, so ofc I have my whole squad decked with Machine God Lucifer (I've also sold enough that now each one I sell gives me like, 41.2 million Skill points - sadly it can't go any higher).
I'm surprised you didn't break the game with that many kills. I never bothered to refight that boss so much, but I did grind a lot myself and using only flan, damage numbers did just overflow at some point (I'm glad that can't happen in LoT2 anymore)
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I'm surprised you didn't break the game with that many kills. I never bothered to refight that boss so much, but I did grind a lot myself and using only flan, damage numbers did just overflow at some point (I'm glad that can't happen in LoT2 anymore)
Mad respect to the both of you. 70 WINNER kills is insane. I thought I remember hearing that experience to level also overflows (depending on the character) in the level 8,000 to 12,000 range, but I never considered the damage overflowing. At what point, roughly, do the damage numbers overflow in LoT1?
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You say you think Momiji cannot compete, but she's one of the bulkiest characters in the game, boasts solid attack stats as well and several very nice passives, good base moves and useful corridor awakening (24% atk buff each time she attacks? she hardly even needs to get buffs refreshed!)
31%. She gets Encounter with a Strong Foe from corridor as well.
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For silly levels of Winner grinds I'd think Yuugi would be the tank, because she's got meiling-grade HP and DEF, and mind is pretty much completely replacable by affinities at that point. In other words, Yuugi with a full ATK build using nukes. Although, you're also the one with 70 kills @.@ I wanted to get many kills, but then the fight was just such a totally boring slog until the final phase that I seriously couldn't be bothered. I'd also have expected Ran in there, because at that point she can afford to use her def/mnd buff every turn and keep your buffs consistently at -very- high levels so you take rather low damage, but at that many kills, maybe surviving isn't the deal so much as simply finishing the slog of a fight. >_> Rinnosuke is kinda underwhelming in LoT1, too. For example Alice is almost flat-out superior, having used them both up through Winner in my last playthrough- Rinno had a little more DEF, but otherwise Alice beat him out across the board and did more damage. Rinno's damage in a full atk build was really sorta disappointing.
Yuugi is in fact one of the members of my squad, but I use it as a nuke rather than a tank, because for the tank slot you need something faster and with less delay, otherwise you risk getting blindsided by Longsword Ringil (which at my levels does ridiculous damage at absurdly low delay). As for Rinnosuke, it's nowhere as bad as it sounds, for a variety of reasons. First of all, Shining Stars of Traumerei does respectable dmg for its delay (for comparison, with full buffs, my Rinnosuke does around 18 million dmg to Winner with SSoT, while Nitori does roughly 26 million with his Megawatt Gun), and World-Shaking Military Rule is very important for Winner phase 1. Finally, Military Rule also makes farming Serpent of Chaos (the main means of grinding at this level) much faster - in fact, as I show below, one of my team slots is basically devoted to Serpent farming mostly.
I'm really curious about your levels/a stat screenshot after the point of 70 kills, though >.> Trance did 100 but didn't have his save anymore so we couldn't see!
There you go!
(http://i.imgur.com/Jy3uykl.jpg)
(Levels are around 1200-1400, while skill levels are mostly around 1000 except for SP which is useless. Affinities are at 500 with everybody)
Quick overview of my team choices, for those wondering:
Reimu: Best healer
Minoriko and Rumia: Second and third healer (I chose them over Eirin and Sanae because their heals are faster, and they also can deal more damage - sometimes, even healers need to go on the offense vs WINNER)
Rinnosuke: Primary tank - I use him to buff the frontline at the beginning and try to punch through phase 1 as fast as possible, because phase 1 is arguably the most dangerous at this point for the high risk of multiple Longswords Ringil (which at this lvl deals approx 1.5 million to the leftmost member)
Keine: Secondary tank - I sometimes bring her on the front to refresh buffs, but generally she stays in the back until Rinnosuke dies
Flandre: Serpent of Chaos farmer (2 Lavatein at full buffs and it's down), and decent emergency nuke with Starbow Break. With Reimu constantly healing, and phase 2-3 being a bit less heavy on AoE dmg, it's definitely sustainable.
Shikieiki: obligatory DEF ignoring nuke for when WINNER uses Ball of Invincibility
Nitori, Suwako, Yuyuko, Youmu, Yuugi: nukes, in order of dmg potential (in theory I calculated that Kaguya actually does more dmg than Yuugi, but she's WAY too frail for this fight - even Suwako is often hard to keep alive for long)
Quick strategy: I open with Rinnosuke/Youmu/Nitori/Yuyuko, World-Shaking and start blasting away. As soon as somebody falls to less than 50% (generally after the first couple turns), I switch in Reimu and begin healing. Hopefully nobody dies before phase 2.
As phase 2 begins, I start bringing in periodically Keine to rebuff. Replacement order in case somebody dies is:
Rinnosuke -> Keine -> Yuugi
Youmu -> Yuugi
Nitori/Yuyuko -> Suwako -> Flandre -> Shikieiki (kept last because if she dies and WINNER uses Ball, it's generally over. Also, sometimes I replace Nitori with Suwako in phase 2 because Suwako becomes more useless in phase 3 with true resistance)
Reimu -> Minoriko -> Rumia (Rumia is sort of a last ditch healer, Demarcation heals for like, 300-400k max without buffs, but Moonlight Ray does decent dmg and Dark Side of the Moon ignores defenses which is useful)
I think endgame viability is definitely far more flexible in this game. You say you think Momiji cannot compete, but she's one of the bulkiest characters in the game, boasts solid attack stats as well and several very nice passives, good base moves and useful corridor awakening (24% atk buff each time she attacks? she hardly even needs to get buffs refreshed!), and her corridor family skill involves three other very useful characters. A lot of them depend more on your party setup than whether or not they're actually a good character, since the more underwhelming ones generally have a good niche or powerful family skill.
But even so, there will be the end parties with the "better setups". You definitely have sweet levels of flexibility with who you want as your bulky attackers, if nothing else, though. There's much better flexibility when it comes to your support characters, but there's certainly going to be ones that are just a little bit better than the other options... for most parties. For example, Rinno is kinda outclassed by Keine after awakening, and his minor edges over her aren't important in the average endgame party I -think-, but if you're running Shou you may want to keep using Rinnosuke instead of her. And even Sanae can realistically play like Byakuren after awakening, and even have some advantages (albiet with some downsides, too).
Yeah it's very hard to build a LoT2 Plus Disk squad without extensive testing, so I'm mostly trying at random^^ So far, I'm considering the following squad for plus disk
Renko / Tokiko / Yuuka / Maribel
Sanae / Reimu / Suwako / Kanako
Kasen / Youmu / Shikieiki / Yuyuko
Still nowhere as sure of its effectiveness, it's mostly made of fan favourites of mine :-P Thankfully, tomes of reincarnation and xp boosting items allow me to "reset" and try other chars without any risk of new chars falling behind and being unable to catch back up (unless there's some weird overflowing bug I'm unaware of)
Anyway, speaking of overflow, I can assure you that I still have not seen any overflowing yet in LoT1. Fully buffed Lavatein does 35-40 million dmg, and Medicine of Life heals WINNER for over 200 million dmg, but there are still no overflows.
P.S.: The "hour count" on the save above is a bit lower than you might expect because, after realizing that some of the chars I were using were suboptimal (Yukari, Kaguya, Kanako) while others were very needed (Flandre, Rumia, Rinnosuke), I restarted the game and breezed through it with 3X Machine God Lucifer on everybody and roughly 300-600 skill levels already. Here is the old save pic before "reset" for those wondering:
(http://i.imgur.com/4QKfBEu.jpg)
(Lowish stats and SP especially are because I've unequipped all the Machine God Lucifer to carry them to the next save)
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At what point, roughly, do the damage numbers overflow in LoT1?
I didn't check, but I bet it's the integer limit which is roughly 2 billion. About what I said about breaking damage numbers, I checked and apparantly I did not break them (I think), don't actually have my save anymore, but if numbers overflow at the integer limit, it makes no sense since the last boss's hp are roughly 100m and I also remember stopping the grind after being able to one-shot it. I don't know how much defenses he has but I highly doubt it's so much that you could oneshot him while at the same time making numbers overflow on 0 def enemies.
I tried to like flandre in LoT2, but not being able to raise her def to insane amounts to lower/negate the self damage stopped me from using her so far, paired with the fact it seemed too hard to build her for stay-in tactics stopped me, even if I prefer to use characters I like instead of the ones that fit into my playstyle.
I learned to backup save files for LoT thanks to that though, now I have all of my LoT2 saves along with a file saying how much time I spent playing in total in a seperate folder.
188 hours and 49 minutes here, after holding myself back because I knew plus disc will happen one day I would make a new save for that anyway and didn't want to kill my will to play the game too much. that includes some short runs though where I was essentially just trying out how the game plays with different reward gain rates.
My first run was about 71 hours and a couple minutes without using the wiki or noted which I didn't have yet because I made them in that playtrough. Makes me wonder how much time other people spent, feel free to share.
Oh right one more thing about the overflow, I'm 100% sure now that what did overflow were exp values for characters I never levelled up, sorry about my confusion there, I'm actually still not 100% sure if I didn't do anything to overflow damage numbers since I was so sure, but it makes no sense looking at those numbers and my other memory.
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Sufficiently buffed Traumerei is actually a very respectable attack on low MND enemies, and its delay isn't awful either. It's kind of like a MYS-elemental Blazing Wheel, except row-target instead of all-target, and on a character with way better survivability than Orin.
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In my experience it was a nice boss attack when Rinno's atk/mag buffs were especially high, but after a couple turns it was usually better to use Scarlet Gold Sword, and I felt like equipping/librarying his magic wasn't being worth the result.
It's probably better for you because after 70 wins winner's def/mnd scaling isn't keeping up, so the greatly increased def/mnd influence isn't being a problem.
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Since I lost my save (I don't remember my level but I cleared the game and I missed like 2 achievement) and the Plus Disk came out, I took this opportunity to play the game in Hard Mode.
Well, I doubt I'll make it to the end seeing how I'm struggling at F5. :D
Anyone else playing in HM ?
EDIT : Apparently none lel.
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In my experience it was a nice boss attack when Rinno's atk/mag buffs were especially high, but after a couple turns it was usually better to use Scarlet Gold Sword, and I felt like equipping/librarying his magic wasn't being worth the result.
It's probably better for you because after 70 wins winner's def/mnd scaling isn't keeping up, so the greatly increased def/mnd influence isn't being a problem.
Yeah, a big part of understanding WINNER is that, after a few fight, def/mnd stop scaling up effectively - which is why, say, Youmu is much more effective than Yuugi, despite Yuugi's better piercing factor. And yeah, Scarlet Gold Sword is generally never worth it unless WINNER used Resistance (and even then, you might want to use Start of Heavenly Demise to not deplete your boosts too fast).
Though it should be noted that, while the def/mnd thing works also the other way, it depends very much on the attack. For example, WINNER's AoE magical attacks tend to have a very good piercing factor, but Longsword Ringil doesn't, which is why World-Shaking Military Rule is so important in phase 1 - without defense boosts, Longsword Ringil hits harder (on the tank, at least) than Wand of Destruction (no joke), and it's hellish fast.
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Briefly off topic, but
(https://i.gyazo.com/144528a022c1956b7760c4a975c916cd.png)
I beat the Kedama Goddess
, the 760 boss icon. Was roughly level 700ish for it, but yeah, no, this was... hard, but I didn't need to grind much more than level 700ish with smart subclass distribution.
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How do you use charagraph folder in LoT2?
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Well Ringil just hits hard period. It's 225-75 which actually makes it tend to hit harder than Vorpal Blade generally (which is 250-125). Wand of Destruction doesn't even really do a lot of damage. Even on the first kill, without overlevelling a lot of how the fight will turn out basically depends on whether he spams Ringil or uses little to none of it.
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Hmm, I've beaten the final boss and got the "last heroine" in the game ( I don't know how to spoiler tag :P) but I can't go to floor 27f and b8f due to the rock blocking the path. Am I missing something?
Also, apparently I'm missing tokiko. Which floor is she in?
Thanks!
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Validon, is that boss refightable? Actually, are there -any- refightable bosses on plus disc?
How do you use charagraph folder in LoT2?
The pattern for portrait names goes like this, same character order as ingame/wiki. I did upload some altered portraits back on page 7 by the way, but no one likes them. You can't use that as blueprint though since I only touched like 4 characters I think and didn't include the originals.
[attach=1]
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As far as I know, the only refightable bosses in the Plus Disk are
Yamata no Orochi and Ura Yamata no Orochi
, but neither of them give anything like the final boss of the regular game does so there's no reason to refight them.
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There's an achievement about a lingering boss, but I believe it's in the content that's supposed to be added early/mid january.
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IIRC the lingering bosses were like on... 30F according to the achievement? But I might be mistaking it with an achievement that just asks to beat "one" of the bosses on 30F. Along those lines, having gone through img3, I've found that in addition to the regular Shadows of the characters and their Abyss forms used in the Endless Corridor, there's also "Heaven" forms of the Shadows. They're labeled alongside the other shadows so they have no known position, but I'm almost positive if it's anything like the original game's 30F, they're probably gonna regular encounters on 30F. Definitely not B11F at least, since that's got a "fleshy hell" aesthetic while everything above 20F is a heaven/super heaven aesthetic.
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Welp, return of Thlaby1's 30F softconfirmed!
It makes for neat grinding, that's for sure. Hype battle music too I hope!
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Validon, is that boss refightable? Actually, are there -any- refightable bosses on plus disc?
The pattern for portrait names goes like this, same character order as ingame/wiki. I did upload some altered portraits back on page 7 by the way, but no one likes them. You can't use that as blueprint though since I only touched like 4 characters I think and didn't include the originals.
[attach=1]
Dimensions?
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Tokiko is on 22F. You need to have found four volumes of The Future of Non-Von Neumann Computers to find her though; all I remember was that volume 12 is on 21F behind a rock which requires 16 jet-black fragments. I missed that and had to backtrack to get her.
The level 760 boss is just a sigil bearing boss. The only thing that makes her interesting to us right now is because her sigil is designed to unlock an area quite far beyond what we have right now, so she's a boss that's far above the level of any boss we have so far.
As for the bosses that will be available in late plus I'll just copy the achievement list text over (read from bottom to top)
The sub-equip "Source of Dragon God's Power" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating True Dragon God.
The sub-equip "Demi-fiend's Reason" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating the lingering enemy on 30F.
The special item "Tome of Spartan Weathering - Speed" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating all strong enemies on 29F.
2,000,000 money can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating 1 strong enemy on 29F.
The special item "Title of *WINNER*" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating ***WINNER***.
The special item "Dragon God's Scales" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating the Dragon God.
The sub-equip "Ame-no-Habakiri" is the reward.
Achievement obtained from defeating Yamata no Orochi Hollow.
As congratulations, take this 1,000,000 money.
Achievement obtained from defeating Yamata no Orochi.
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Oh, I thought we already have all of the plus disc content and future patches were supposed to just unlock more endless corridor floors, interesting.
Dimensions?
Seems to be different for everyone, at least the small ones, it -might- work to just use 800x600, 192x113, 190x29 which are the highest dimensions I found on a glance.
If that doesn't work, I uploaded the rips from qazmlpok with properly named portraits so they're easier to use.
https://puu.sh/tioQp/9c5cb808a8.7z
Credits go to qazmlpok, see here https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15170.420.html
I just put numbers on them so they work.
Note that qazs download includes those alternate portraits of iku and tenshi. (and the 20F boss)
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Tokiko is on 22F. You need to have found four volumes of The Future of Non-Von Neumann Computers to find her though; all I remember was that volume 12 is on 21F behind a rock which requires 16 jet-black fragments. I missed that and had to backtrack to get her.
The level 760 boss is just a sigil bearing boss. The only thing that makes her interesting to us right now is because her sigil is designed to unlock an area quite far beyond what we have right now, so she's a boss that's far above the level of any boss we have so far.
As for the bosses that will be available in late plus I'll just copy the achievement list text over (read from bottom to top)
The sub-equip "Source of Dragon God's Power" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating True Dragon God.
The sub-equip "Demi-fiend's Reason" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating the lingering enemy on 30F.
The special item "Tome of Spartan Weathering - Speed" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating all strong enemies on 29F.
2,000,000 money can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating 1 strong enemy on 29F.
The special item "Title of *WINNER*" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating ***WINNER***.
The special item "Dragon God's Scales" can be obtained.
Achievement obtained from defeating the Dragon God.
The sub-equip "Ame-no-Habakiri" is the reward.
Achievement obtained from defeating Yamata no Orochi Hollow.
As congratulations, take this 1,000,000 money.
Achievement obtained from defeating Yamata no Orochi.
Thanks for the answer! Now I can go further :D
Come to think of it, what are these special items on page 4 and 5? Looking at the kanjis they seem to boost their respective stats, but I can't use them. How do I use these?
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Those are the characters' awakening items. If you get one, that character will be able to use their new corridor skills, plus that character will do 1% more damage and take 0.5% less damage for every copy (to a maximum of 50 stacks). You need to get your initial copy of each kind by trading in Greater Jewels of Awakening (from defeating shadow bosses in corridor), but you can trade 12 infinity jewels for additional copies.
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Those are the characters' awakening items. If you get one, that character will be able to use their new corridor skills, plus that character will do 1% more damage and take 0.5% less damage for every copy (to a maximum of 50 stacks). You need to get your initial copy of each kind by trading in Greater Jewels of Awakening (from defeating shadow bosses in corridor), but you can trade 12 infinity jewels for additional copies.
So you need to awaken a character before you're able to use these?
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So you need to awaken a character before you're able to use these?
Getting your first copy IS what "awakens" the characters.
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Getting your first copy IS what "awakens" the characters.
(https://s29.postimg.org/fhdkq5w4j/sss.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/fhdkq5w4j/) (https://s29.postimg.org/4j2b7z7j7/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4j2b7z7j7/)
Ah sorry, I think we have a misunderstanding. I meant these items.
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Well, the items in the middle of page 4 are the stat orbs, they increase stats that have already been boosted by gems to 10 up to 20. The items at the bottom of page 4 and in page 5 are further tiers of skill books. You need to have maxed out the corresponding stat boost skill before learning the next level, which goes as follows:
[X] Boost- five levels, 2 points per level
[X] Second Boost- five levels, 10 points per level
[X] Mega Boost- five levels, 50 points per level
Note that using a stat book like that will permanently move the stat boost skill up one tier unless you use a Tome of Reincarnation.
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Yeah, so don't use them until you're ready to -only- have the new version; you probably won't want any Mega Boosts for a long time with that kind of cost!
Effect is doubled (and then tripled) compared to normal boost, so instead of +0.2 you get +0.4 and then +0.6. Same goes for HP boost except double the numbers (since hp boost is normally 0.4). They still aren't as strong as Rinnosuke's High Boosts, which are quadrupled, but Rinnosuke can't upgrade, so theoretically in super-endgame he falls behind- that's some crazy high levels though before the difference would matter at all.
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His stats are still ahead of the pack though, and unlike in the main game there are subclasses with strong spells for him to use (Murakumo's Blessing gives him half of his LoT1 skillset back, and WINNER gives spells that are probably beyond those), so he really doesn't lose any viability. Not to mention that you won't have mega boosts for a LONG time.
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Thanks for clearing all this up! I used some on Orin along with the awakening gem.
I've been investing in Orin since I like extra attacks and koishi is my fav character so I want to make them work, but not sure how the invest gonna hold up in the end.
What do you mean by not having mega for a LONG time? The item's not in this version yet or is it that rare of a drop?
Also, it seems that once you awaken someone, you can't take back the greater gem? If that is so, awakening someone requires a certain amount of planning before doing so since these gems are more or less really rare.
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Mega boost cost 50 skill points per level. Maxing one out requires you to spend 250 skill points. Technically you can have a maxed out mega skill somewhere around the big 23-24F/B5-B6F period, but are you going to actually do it?
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Sorry for going slightly offtopic, but does anybody have experience with Miko? I'm wondering if, with her Maintenance-like skill, she could made for a decent tank despite her inferior stats. I know Renko can be a proficient tank, but her base defensive stats are fairly higher (and I believe she also levels faster), so I'm not sure if Miko would work just as well.
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That's not offtopic at all! XD Anyway, I'd compare Miko more to Nitori. Miko has the slowest leveling rate in the game, and her library isn't cheap either, so whilst she can get tanky, I'm a little dubious- especially considering how potent the other tank options already are. More importantly, she doesn't really have any particular talent in supporting, so even if she can match or somewhat surpass other tanks defensively, I'm not sure what the benefit would be... her heal is strange and has a rather steep mp cost, and whilst she boosts the party's buffs after awakening, it works at 50% in the back too (along with being a good bulky attacker who could stay out plenty, far as I can tell) so, why go for a tank?
Nah, she's moreso for bulky offense. Her set of attacks is a little small (at least before awakening boosts one of them into silliness), but that's what subclassing is for, and her awakening makes her REALLY nice looking for the role.
As for the one asking about Orin, she looks like she's got good potential after awakening, and Koishi looks pretty neat as well; if you're using both you might want to bring Utsuho in too eventually, once you can afford to awaken her. Assuming you don't change your mind about Orin, at least. Satori is... I'm not sure. I'm still wondering if using her in an HP build works or not? With the rest of the Earth Spirits team her stats are brought up enough to be good to keep just attacking as normal, I suppose. She's got high natural HP so maybe with a quartz charm and affinity gear she could be a somewhat bulk-ish attacker, and she can subclass for about any element attack for her awakening that heavily boosts weakness damage. Mmn, she just seems like a character you're mostly using because of earth spirits >.> She does do heavy damage with copying certain attack skills, but it's party dependant.
Just having 3 out of 4 earth spirits members is probably fine, though. >_>
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Keep also in mind that Satori has a skill which lets her deal damage proportional to her HP automatically upon her action, so an HP build definitely suits her
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That's why I consider it, but the question is whether it's enough to actually be worth having her in the party. It's hard to tell without actually being lv300+ with plus disk equips and seeing how realistically high you can get her HP vs. how much damage dealers are doing.
Although it's hilarious to imagine her using low delay moves like Grand Patriots Elixir after tweaking her MP super high, taking advantage of 25% recovery on swapout, etc.
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Mega boost cost 50 skill points per level. Maxing one out requires you to spend 250 skill points. Technically you can have a maxed out mega skill somewhere around the big 23-24F/B5-B6F period, but are you going to actually do it?
Well, someone's gonna get to a thousand levels eventually XD
That's not offtopic at all! XD Anyway, I'd compare Miko more to Nitori. Miko has the slowest leveling rate in the game, and her library isn't cheap either, so whilst she can get tanky, I'm a little dubious- especially considering how potent the other tank options already are. More importantly, she doesn't really have any particular talent in supporting, so even if she can match or somewhat surpass other tanks defensively, I'm not sure what the benefit would be... her heal is strange and has a rather steep mp cost, and whilst she boosts the party's buffs after awakening, it works at 50% in the back too (along with being a good bulky attacker who could stay out plenty, far as I can tell) so, why go for a tank?
Nah, she's moreso for bulky offense. Her set of attacks is a little small (at least before awakening boosts one of them into silliness), but that's what subclassing is for, and her awakening makes her REALLY nice looking for the role.
As for the one asking about Orin, she looks like she's got good potential after awakening, and Koishi looks pretty neat as well; if you're using both you might want to bring Utsuho in too eventually, once you can afford to awaken her. Assuming you don't change your mind about Orin, at least. Satori is... I'm not sure. I'm still wondering if using her in an HP build works or not? With the rest of the Earth Spirits team her stats are brought up enough to be good to keep just attacking as normal, I suppose. She's got high natural HP so maybe with a quartz charm and affinity gear she could be a somewhat bulk-ish attacker, and she can subclass for about any element attack for her awakening that heavily boosts weakness damage. Mmn, she just seems like a character you're mostly using because of earth spirits >.> She does do heavy damage with copying certain attack skills, but it's party dependant.
Just having 3 out of 4 earth spirits members is probably fine, though. >_>
I'm already got a bad feeling about how much damage Orin is dealing, lol. The extra activation doesn't feel it's doing all that much, and while I don't have the 30% def ignore yet due to the lack of skill points, I don't know if she's going to be doing all that much, considering all other powerful damage options there are.
Koishi deals kinda ok damage, I guess her durability is average, she can take a hit or two if you put some defensive stats and when something misses her, her turn comes fast but her damage is nowhere near true damage dealers. By that I mean someone like Meiling, Kaguya and Patchouli etc. Her void attack also has high delay with average damage that I don't know why I'm still using it lol.
I don't think the whole earth spirit party is that good, since they seem to lack a reliable tank. Also their spells are mostly fire spells with no buff or heals without subclasses, making them kinda inflexible if I'm going to use them to run through the game. Having 2 of them in front can be ok, but more than that and your tank gotta be able to heal and buff and I really like my strategist Byakuren :(
That's why I consider it, but the question is whether it's enough to actually be worth having her in the party. It's hard to tell without actually being lv300+ with plus disk equips and seeing how realistically high you can get her HP vs. how much damage dealers are doing.
Although it's hilarious to imagine her using low delay moves like Grand Patriots Elixir after tweaking her MP super high, taking advantage of 25% recovery on swapout, etc.
Right now my highest HP is Byakuren which has something like 150k hp. If I really try to ramp up her HP it goes to 250-280k at level 300 and level 300 library. So 150k damage per turn doesn't sound bad for randoms but for boss you I'd better rely on millions of damage dealt by main nukers.
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That reminds me, does "aliment" includes debuffs? If yes, then I could try subbing Orin a ninja to increase damage along with her passive final blow and see if it works well on a boss. Trash clearing's still gonna be Kaguya's job though.
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I don't think the whole earth spirit party is that good, since they seem to lack a reliable tank. Also their spells are mostly fire spells with no buff or heals without subclasses, making them kinda inflexible if I'm going to use them to run through the game. Having 2 of them in front can be ok, but more than that and your tank gotta be able to heal and buff and I really like my strategist Byakuren :(
I had a feeling- it seems like they all need the big stat bonus from Family and Proof of Kinship (which is both awakening exclusive and 100 skp...) in order to really get anywhere. (Just one of them in front with Proof of Kinship gives +24% all stats!) Orin's main attack is actually her Row attack with a warrior subclass, although fire's her second best. Utsuho at least has sheer force and a bunch of fire boosters <.< Giga Flare and Hell's Tokamak were buffed up in Plus at least, on that note, and she can become a fairly durable attacker.
Orin does actually really need that defense ignore, because her offensive stats aren't particularly high. A lot of her damage gets stopped that way. I'd drop some other passives to grab it. And no, debuffs are not ailments; Orin really should be subbing Warrior anyway, both for Row Attack Enhancement on her best move and because Explosive Flame Sword is far better for bosses than blazing wheel (when elements dictate you aren't using needles). Plus, Extra Attack procs Tension Up each time to keep her atk buff topped out. No other subclass can compete at all on Orin.
They do all seem like kinda dubious characters if you aren't using them all at once >.>
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I had a feeling- it seems like they all need the big stat bonus from Family and Proof of Kinship (which is both awakening exclusive and 100 skp...) in order to really get anywhere. (Just one of them in front with Proof of Kinship gives +24% all stats!) Orin's main attack is actually her Row attack with a warrior subclass, although fire's her second best. Utsuho at least has sheer force and a bunch of fire boosters <.< Giga Flare and Hell's Tokamak were buffed up in Plus at least, on that note, and she can become a fairly durable attacker.
Orin does actually really need that defense ignore, because her offensive stats aren't particularly high. A lot of her damage gets stopped that way. I'd drop some other passives to grab it. And no, debuffs are not ailments; Orin really should be subbing Warrior anyway, both for Row Attack Enhancement on her best move and because Explosive Flame Sword is far better for bosses than blazing wheel (when elements dictate you aren't using needles). Plus, Extra Attack procs Tension Up each time to keep her atk buff topped out. No other subclass can compete at all on Orin.
They do all seem like kinda dubious characters if you aren't using them all at once >.>
Other teams with proof of kinship seems more versatile. Considering team of 4, Scarlet team has Flan, Meiling and Sakuya that can heal, buff and damage, eventhough IMO Remilia is on the weak side and most of their damage is physical.
And then we have the kids on team 9 that has a large assortments of debuffs and elements to work with while building full defence on someone like Wriggle or Cirno won't really affect their ability to do their job, especially now that Cirno with corridor skills can debuff speed regardless of resistance. They're fine even by themselves!
And when we're including other teams like Eientei and Moriya and Yakumo, which all seem much more capable when you're using them for the whole game since they can much more other than having high damage, with elements other than physical and fire.
I still love Koishi though, pretty much why I'm pumping all these stats into them.
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Yeah unfortunately Utsuho is one of my favourites, but the Earth Palace team seems to lack too much in variety to me without the endgame subclasses - and I'd rather give those subclasses to someone else.
Btw, I believe I finally settled on the following team after much theorymonning:
#1 Renko / Yuuka / Miko / Maribel
#2 Byakuren / Sanae / Suwako / Kanako
#3 Komachi / Tokiko / Reimu / Eiki
Reasoning for #1: Renko and Maribel have their amazing Sealing Club synergy. Moreover, Maribel's new corridor skill (and Renko's own skills) synergizes very well with Miko's ability to take extra buffs. Finally, Yuuka provides a decent stream of heals with Gensokyo's Reflowering + Extra Attack, and is just a very powerful attacker overall (and one of my favourite waifus alongside Mari)
Reasoning for #2: Byakuren + Sanae form a sick pair, even if Byakuren's buff was nerfed. Sanae also provides healing and TP recovery. Suwako and Kanako have a variety of elements at their disposal and have always been my favourite generic attackers for when I don't really know what I'm up against (together they cover just about everything except Fire and Dark)
Reasoning for #3: Reimu and Tokiko have some fun synergy, plus Reimu is still a great healer and MP battery for the whole team. Komachi is still a great tank, and has some minor synergy with Eiki. Finally, Eiki provides a source for piercing damage.
Do you think I'm missing something major, or is this a balanced squad?
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It's definitely one of the more dubious teams. Earth Spirits' team specialty though is that it's as strong as the 9 team synergy- 4 members, 8% stat bonus per level, compared to other teams with 7~8% bonuses and only 3 members, or SDM with just 5% (in exchange for a whole lot of character issues; Meiling and Flan are the only ones who really work outside of a full sdm team, physical alltargets are far more common to kill Patch than lot1, and Sakuya/Remi are forced to sub for more attack skills because sakuya's single target does nothing against good-def enemies. Meiling can't heal other's HP and Sakuya's buffing is quickly outclassed, they're just small side benefits on bulky attack characters). But the Earth Spirits team has no support characters and the most durable is Utsuho, so, it's hard to really use the family boost until you're far enough into plus disk to awaken several of them... and actually afford to learn proof of kinshup.
The elements aren't a big deal, though, imo. Koishi has two other good attacks (even if her best for bosses is fire, the others aren't bad at all) and can sub sorc or archmage if needed, Orin has two strong elements as warrior and backup in SPI for element roulette, and Utsuho has so many fire boosts and sheer force to just sorta get away with it, along with a souped up Giga Flare. The issue is more that the team just doesn't work that well until you can awaken most of them.
But yeah, it's a dubious team. It doesn't look like it really works particularly well until closer to endgame. The other teams work better across the whole game. (SDM is still dubious but looks like it works out in the end, and Chen probably lags behind until later when you fix up her base atk and get her awakened, but, yeah)
Elminster, team looks good imo~
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It's definitely one of the more dubious teams. Earth Spirits' team specialty though is that it's as strong as the 9 team synergy- 4 members, 8% stat bonus per level, compared to other teams with 7~8% bonuses and only 3 members, or SDM with just 5% (in exchange for a whole lot of character issues; Meiling and Flan are the only ones who really work outside of a full sdm team, physical alltargets are far more common to kill Patch than lot1, and Sakuya/Remi are forced to sub for more attack skills because sakuya's single target does nothing against good-def enemies. Meiling can't heal other's HP and Sakuya's buffing is quickly outclassed, they're just small side benefits on bulky attack characters). But the Earth Spirits team has no support characters and the most durable is Utsuho, so, it's hard to really use the family boost until you're far enough into plus disk to awaken several of them... and actually afford to learn proof of kinshup.
The elements aren't a big deal, though, imo. Koishi has two other good attacks (even if her best for bosses is fire, the others aren't bad at all) and can sub sorc or archmage if needed, Orin has two strong elements as warrior and backup in SPI for element roulette, and Utsuho has so many fire boosts and sheer force to just sorta get away with it, along with a souped up Giga Flare. The issue is more that the team just doesn't work that well until you can awaken most of them.
But yeah, it's a dubious team. It doesn't look like it really works particularly well until closer to endgame. The other teams work better across the whole game. (SDM is still dubious but looks like it works out in the end, and Chen probably lags behind until later when you fix up her base atk and get her awakened, but, yeah)
Elminster, team looks good imo~
Element roulette? What's that?
Koishi's spells problem are her high delay and average damage aside from the fire spell, at least according to what I see after I pump her magic on par with my main nukers. She can't really compare to Kaguya or Patchy since those two are glass cannons, but I which Koishi has more average damage-delay spell aside from the fire. Why give her two large delay spells while she's suppose to be on the frontline more than glass cannons :(
For the bright side though, it works with how her evasion passive works, especially after awakening. Using the high delay spell then dodge something and her turn is up again! Suddenly her design make sense lol.
Meiling can heal using "healer" spell, not much but not too bad since it cures aliments.
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Yeah, Koishi gets better with her evasion stuff. But even without that, 40% delay on Ancestors isn't good, but it's not -all- that bad, and if you have the status effects up it's actually powerful enough to make up for it.
Elemental roulette is just how I refer to bosses having different elements they resist/are weak to. Even Sorceror's Penetrator beats out most main attacks if it hits weakness and the other attack doesn't, after row attack enhancement.
Also I went back and checked and, huh, Meiling's healing numbers are better than I recall >_> She does have to be in a full atk build for healer to be half decent for HP, though. (It's really for ailments either way, which is pretty good as it is). It's funny how all her move descriptions talk about her being a weak character and meant to tank, when they greatly buffed her atk and made her one of the best bulky attackers in the game. She can't even be in the first slot anyway... (You can't give up that 32% damage reduction!)
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Nitori/Yuyuko -> Suwako -> Flandre -> Shikieiki (kept last because if she dies and WINNER uses Ball, it's generally over. Also, sometimes I replace Nitori with Suwako in phase 2 because Suwako becomes more useless in phase 3 with true resistance)
Does poison go through Ball?
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Poison damage is complete poo poo when every turn interval is like 3 clockticks.
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Does poison go through Ball?
I've never tried myself, but I'm pretty sure WINNER has a resistance or immunity to Poison. And even if he didn't have, I would prefer other, more reliable forms of damage.
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Yeah, Poison is great in LoT1 until you beat the maingame, and during the 100 level burst to reach plus disk content it turns into total garbo. One person investigated it's damage in a plus disk fight and throughout an entire lengthy boss, reapplying often, it did about the damage of one Nitori Megawatt Gun.
Wonder if it'll be much better in LoT2 endgame? At least if nothing else it'll activate passives.
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From what I've seen of Poison in LoT2, it... exists? Like, during boss fights, I can kinda see HP ticking down, but much like LoT1 the ATB is flying by so fast that it's not too noticeable.
Speaking of LoT1, I've decided to do a dumb thing and replay it with an entirely new party instead of finding my save file from my last fixed party run and do that. This time around I've got:
Tenshi, Mokou, Renko, Maribel, Eirin, Flandre, Rinnosuke, Sakuya, Eiki, Kanako, Yuuka, Minoriko
Mostly a bunch of characters I've not really used, similar to ye ol' Team Underappreciated but not quite so since there's amazing characters like Eiki in there.
...I also used the power of image messing-around-with to mod the game to use LoT:Rebirth's UI instead of the default, as well as making the tileset for dungeons 10F's from that mod. Mostly because why not, partially because I prefer a darker palette for menus, etc. Maybe I'll make my own for fun in the future.
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The painful thing of using lategame/plus characters mostly is just the sp costs... ow. Kanako at least finally brings the only CLD nuke into the relevant part of the game, though. (Which is good, because that's her main redeeming feature) Thank goodness lot2 doesn't have that problem, so they're actually fully viable for ng+.
Well, that and half the lot1 plus characters are pretty eh. Utsuho is hot garbage, Yuuka's stat layout is weird and whilst she works, it's not that -good- imo, Renko only really works in maingame (she can kinda be used postgame, but you're praying to land that 4% chance of status- charge's atb kill is BRUTAL), Keine isn't half bad but unless you're talking about overkilling winner 50 times I'm pretty sure Iku is the better choice with that mnd stat (and a strong single-target buff is generally more relevant in lot1)... Maribel and Shiki would be fine apart from the crazy sp costs. Maribel would actually be pretty good in maingame with her selfbuff and attacks that debuff on hit, but, rip sp, and Shiki does sorta suffer from one-trick pony since her other moves are MAG, but it's a good trick. Maribel is pretty fine in plus after all, it's just that her debuffs are resisted and she can't deal quite as much damage as other options, but still good damage. More than Kanako IIRC, at least. Kanako is only much good for having a CLD spell, and she came in a bit late for that. >_> Isn't it sad, Kanako? With her poor HP, the remi-equivalent defenses really are not relevant. Much better in LoT2.
And then Mystia is the one normal, solid character. Maybe it's because you can get her before you actually start plus content. She's a little unassuming for boss fight and might barely be able to take a hit in maingame, though (in plus she at least often survives non-major hits in a boss... which makes her fairly decent, either praying on PAR proc or just using ill-starred dive)
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Yeah I still remember my feeling when I tried Kanako in LoT2 just out of curiosity, and found out that all her attacks hit like nukes :-O. Mad Dance in particular was a surprise, in LoT1 it was extremely underwhelming, but in LoT2 it's absolutely sick for its delay and mana cost.
Man, I can't wait to see this game (I mean, LoT2 plus disc) patched into English so that I can try it myself^^ I'm farming the final boss for gems and manuals atm because hey, they could come in handy later on right? Sadly, they don't all have the same drop chance (MP/TP gems drop much more than the others, and Def/Mnd gems seem to drop the rarest for me), but it can still be worked around. Once I've gem maxxed my 12 main chars (and prolly maxxed the MP/TP of a buncha more, as well as having poured dozens of training manuals on Byakuren), if the English patch is still not out, I'll prolly consider training on 20F - after all, even if my squad is already around lvl 250, having some levels "ready for use" when the game decides it's time to jump in difficulty (and from what I heard, there's a 100-200 lvl jump somewhere) can come in handy.
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Is there anyway to skip the looooooooong cinematic of the first sword final boss? This really takes time when I rekt the boss in few hits and has to watch the cinematic every time just to find the gem :(
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I've never tried myself, but I'm pretty sure WINNER has a resistance or immunity to Poison. And even if he didn't have, I would prefer other, more reliable forms of damage.
I definetely remember inflicting PSN to WINNER when I played LoT. So, let's call it resistance.
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Is there anyway to skip the looooooooong cinematic of the first sword final boss? This really takes time when I rekt the boss in few hits and has to watch the cinematic every time just to find the gem :(
You can keep Z pressed to go through it as much as possible but that's about it, I believe - you still have to go through approximately 40 seconds of cinematic every time (which means you roughly should get 1 kill per minute if you oneshot it with Flandre's Lavatein like I do)
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You can keep Z pressed to go through it as much as possible but that's about it, I believe - you still have to go through approximately 40 seconds of cinematic every time (which means you roughly should get 1 kill per minute if you oneshot it with Flandre's Lavatein like I do)
Well yeah, so 2 gems per minute at most I guess. Is this currently the only way to farm offensive stats gems?
Also anyone has any thoughts on Kokoro? She's also one of my most fave character but her skillset looks dubious as hell as far as effectiveness goes. There's no number indicated for the buffs on her masks and she refuse to stick with neither magic nor attack. Manipulation of Emotions also has this "user uses healing spell" but Kokoro has no healing spell and the rest of her skillset does not support her being a support.
Maybe she can inflict aliments but I guess we have better girls for that for each and any aliment.
She's designed to be used with Miko and to a lesser extent Byakuren, so as far as a party of Miko, Futo, Byakuren and Kokoro looks, it seems pretty solid physical team with characters that can stand and take hits while returning some.
Really wanna try all these teams out provided I have the resources for them lol.
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From what I've seen of Poison in LoT2, it... exists? Like, during boss fights, I can kinda see HP ticking down, but much like LoT1 the ATB is flying by so fast that it's not too noticeable.
When you don't exactly have high damage, poison is pretty noticeable.
Of course, that's only if you don't grab the damage dealers, and not have the levels/equips to back their damage up.
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Also anyone has any thoughts on Kokoro? She's also one of my most fave character but her skillset looks dubious as hell as far as effectiveness goes.
She does look a little dubious, but Invigorated Kagura Lion is a pretty solid attack and also adds on Fighting Spirit, at least, which her corridor skill prevents from going down much so she can actually maintain it. She also gets a 10% hp regen with corridor to help her be a good bulky attacker, and inflicts debuffs on her attacks. For randoms (and multi-part bosses), she's got an all-target dual elemental composite, which is nice.
The downside is her attack stats are sort of low, and her skillset doesn't do much other than her emotion gimmick, so she really needs fighting spirit (which will be hard to maintain before awakening) to get respectable numbers/durability. But at least she inflicts an irresistable debuff to enemies and buffs allies just by having an emotion up at all.
Once she awakens I think the consistent fighting spirit and the regen, combined with what she's got and her emotion gimmick, should make her a good bulky attacker, albiet strange. However, the problem here is, if we're talking about AFTER awakening you can probably find better options... unless you value the emotion gimmick a good bit. She should be good enough after that to use if you like her, though!
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Anyone here found Prophet's Proof?
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Poison in LoT2 doesn't suffer from the scaling problem that LoT1 does, since status duration scales with the inflicted unit's speed there. No idea how damage is calculated though.
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Hmm, just remembered that Kokoro gets 2.5x the benefit of her emotion buffs on herself. Between that and fighting spirit, and guessing off the 6% speed buff emotion, it's probably at -least- 15% offense/defense up on relevant emotions? With that in mind, I suppose she should be a little bit more capable of a bulky attacker than I said earlier. It's still a little hard to see it as more worthy than, say, Kanako or Kasen though, unless the emotion buffs that aren't speed are more powerful than 6%- although having enough stuff to be compared to Kanako and Kasen is a pretty good starting point, to be fair. Giving 10% atk/def up to the front row would be a little nice, and then she'd have a +25% atk on herself, which starts to make her look good. (15% base is too much to hope for, but maybe I'll test later with that auto-unlock save file- it's 1:20am so I shouldn't even be awake)
There's also a curious aspect in that Kokoro can concentrate with a delay of only 1500 (aka 8500). It would heavily shuffle her emotions, but if you gave her a subclass with effects on every turn taken, it might be interesting. Probably not though, Support Kokoro is a weird choice as it is (there's no def+mnd up emotion anyway as far as I can tell, but at least she can get her 10% regen on low delay if she wants). Still, if mixed with something like the dragon god
subclass, pumping up fighting spirit on Kokoro and using speed turns+regen could sort of work. You're probably better off trying Tokiko for that sort of support build though.
She just doesn't have any way to get an all-target heal to use her "buff with emotion" aspect to any effect. Maybe if it was a large buff you could care about subbing healer. It would synergize after all, giving her that 4% heal with quick concentrates. Hmm. Maybe enchanter's heal works so you can stack ontop of enchanter's already existing buffs? (Honestly though, there's really no point compared to the other tanky buffer options, I'm just a sucker for thinking about goofy builds)
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From what I've seen of Poison in LoT2, it... exists? Like, during boss fights, I can kinda see HP ticking down, but much like LoT1 the ATB is flying by so fast that it's not too noticeable.
Speaking of LoT1, I've decided to do a dumb thing and replay it with an entirely new party instead of finding my save file from my last fixed party run and do that. This time around I've got:
Tenshi, Mokou, Renko, Maribel, Eirin, Flandre, Rinnosuke, Sakuya, Eiki, Kanako, Yuuka, Minoriko
Mostly a bunch of characters I've not really used, similar to ye ol' Team Underappreciated but not quite so since there's amazing characters like Eiki in there.
...I also used the power of image messing-around-with to mod the game to use LoT:Rebirth's UI instead of the default, as well as making the tileset for dungeons 10F's from that mod. Mostly because why not, partially because I prefer a darker palette for menus, etc. Maybe I'll make my own for fun in the future.
how did you go about adding in the rebirth tilesets? im extremely curious as id like to play it through again while i wait for the patches to PoT2 to hit. and the bland tilesets of LoT1 can use replacing. ...also somewhat curious about the UI mod implementation
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For replacing the stuff for LoT, I don't know the exact keystring for the .dxa (because the one listed by Qaz don't work with DxaDecode/DxaEncode, it can't be in hex, it has to be in the original string form like RANisGOD for LoT2), so instead what I did was unpack the entire img folder with DxExtract and then replaced images within that. As long as there is a folder named "img" in your LoT folder, it will read files from that instead, so you can just replace the base tilesets.
Unfortunately, the big difference between the original game and Rebirth is that EthanSilver added an entirely new set of references to individual tilesets for every floor, something I can't replicate because I don't know how to do assembly (he said in the readme for Rebirth that it was "simple" but I'm no good at that so), so it's basically still the same tileset every floor, just a different one. Still, better than nothing.
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I got 9% or 10% for Joy's attack increase with Kokoro. (I got 9.4, but, my methods weren't the best... too lazy to use a def ignoring attack on someone else so I had to approximate attack power before -and- after joy) That's... a somewhat decent amount. With Kokoro's personal boost she gets 22%~25% increase, which brings her offense stats up to top grade level (roughly 15, plus she benefits slightly more off base grade boosts). Fighting Spirit is her only other damage increase in skills though, but 25% dmg up from Spirit is good and that plus her regen also gives her pretty good bulk (and a 22~25% boost to one of her defenses!), and I suspect Invigorated Kagura Lion has good defense piercing due to it's description. So, it looks like she works out fine enough. With awakening and/or Miko the debuff gets lowered to triviality or nothing, and it's not that bad of one in the first place.
TBH it could also still be 8% though. It's probably 8 or 10. Not a large difference, just a matter of her having 20% or 25% boosts on herself.
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About the poison in Lot2, I think it's really effective depending on circumstances. I'm even farming with it on floor B10 currently since most of my non-Byakuren chars die in 1-2 hits so I wriggle in, poison things and wait things out.
I got 9% or 10% for Joy's attack increase with Kokoro. (I got 9.4, but, my methods weren't the best... too lazy to use a def ignoring attack on someone else so I had to approximate attack power before -and- after joy) That's... a somewhat decent amount. With Kokoro's personal boost she gets 22%~25% increase, which brings her offense stats up to top grade level (roughly 15, plus she benefits slightly more off base grade boosts). Fighting Spirit is her only other damage increase in skills though, but 25% dmg up from Spirit is good and that plus her regen also gives her pretty good bulk (and a 22~25% boost to one of her defenses!), and I suspect Invigorated Kagura Lion has good defense piercing due to it's description. So, it looks like she works out fine enough. With awakening and/or Miko the debuff gets lowered to triviality or nothing, and it's not that bad of one in the first place.
TBH it could also still be 8% though. It's probably 8 or 10. Not a large difference, just a matter of her having 20% or 25% boosts on herself.
"roughly 15" What's this number, her base attack after the joy plus 2.5x boost from passive? So, looking at the base of 64(12.0), we're getting 15 growth roughly from the passive?
I'm pretty bad at math and how these numbers add up to how a character works lol but since all the characters with her synergies are pretty solid, she seems alright no matter how her stats turn out to be.
But with the awakening her 8500 delay concentration with mask of hope should really help her sustain. so if she's tanky enough she doesn't need someone switching her in and out and that's great!
And with the 15.5 vote coming, I'm soooooooooo gonna vote for Koishi/Kokoro pairing. Love("Koi"shi) can't be separated from heart(Kokoro). :]
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"roughly 15" What's this number, her base attack after the joy plus 2.5x boost from passive? So, looking at the base of 64(12.0), we're getting 15 growth roughly from the passive?
I'm pretty bad at math and how these numbers add up to how a character works lol but since all the characters with her synergies are pretty solid, she seems alright no matter how her stats turn out to be.
Yeah. The number doesn't mean much unless you're pretty familiar with base stat meta, from looking at everyone's stats on the wiki or something, but 14.4~15 is the "normal" level of pretty high (characters like Kasen, Utsuho, Remilia, Suwako). Only a few characters like Suika, Yuugi and Flan surpass it. Basically, it makes Kokoro look like a potentially competitive character despite stuff like her Fighting Spirit being dependant on using one of her attacks, which will be a pain against bosses that resist it. (you might just want to go without on those, for example...) That's a little unfortunate, since otherwise with high ATK -or- MAG she can subclass to hit any weakness like a non-hp-build Satori would likely want to do- except whilst actually being bulky. But she loses the fighting spirit bonus, even if she'll often get more damage in the end that way. (Even if Satori can copy attacks, they're lv0 versus lv5 subclass ones, so only -really- nice copy attacks are actually better as plus disk expands available subclasses)
TBH high speed regen doesn't mean a -whole- lot for a bulky attacker since she'd have to stop attacking, but with Monk Sub that's like, 28% max hp healed in two moves, so it's not entirely bad in a pinch. (If you're actively trying to heal you'd probably rather use her turn to swap in a healer, though) It'd mean more if there seemed to be a point to making her a tank, but her kit can't come near competing for that role.
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Well, I'm kinda taking back what I said about Orin, after getting all the perk. Turns out she's pretty good physical damage dealer if you got a bit lucky. She can't really stand and take hits so you need someone to swap her in.
But if those extra attacks proc and you're fighting someone who's has lowish def the damage can go several million. This is without proof of kinship since I don't have the skill point yet lol.
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Yeah, that's the bad part about Orin. With a bit of tweaking (HP boost! and family doesn't hurt) she can take magic hits okay, at least.
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sent you a pm
PS whats the price on it and wheres a purchase site? (preferably one that doesnt have a japanese capcha)
on a seperate note, should we actually create a new thread title like, labyrinth of touhou 2 plus disk or something? people might not realize this has come out yet without a name change.
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I FINALLY bought the game, and I have a few questions. I am average level 118 now, my highest level is Kogasa at 125. Is floor 20 still the best for grinding? Also, was there more balance/nerfs/buffs in full + disk? I know about Byakuren's "nerf". Still don't wanna use her tho
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keine/meiling/kogasa/youmu have a new skill (not from the corridor) compared to bushel of skills in the the original trial release, and overheat has been capped at 5
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I FINALLY bought the game, and I have a few questions. I am average level 118 now, my highest level is Kogasa at 125. Is floor 20 still the best for grinding? Also, was there more balance/nerfs/buffs in full + disk? I know about Byakuren's "nerf". Still don't wanna use her tho
imo floor 20 is good until you're like level 270~ up. And yes everyone still uses Byakuren.
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At least Byakuren is feasibly replaceable now, but yeah, she's still -really- good.
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I gotta set her up, my refusal to use her because I wanted a challenge was a bit silly. I probably just got to grind then, as the Kraken is too fast, and the blue giant and 3 sacred treasures duo I am not ready for yet. I did murder Kasen though, Flan and Eiki made quick work of her with Reisen and Hina as assist damage.
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Patch 1.103 is out. Aside from the bugfixes, there are also a bunch of skill changes:
-Akyuu's two guarding skills now have postuse of 5000 instead of 6000.
-Diva's two spells have more delay. (Their postuse is now 2500, and their effect is reduced from 5000 to 3750. Major RIP)
-"Enduring Celestial" is strengthened (Now the initial buff is +33%)
-"More Enduring Celestial" is removed, and in place another corridor skill "Courageous Sword" is added (1*60, When the user is under the effect of DEF or MND buffs, increase the user's ATK by (DEF buff+MND buff)/5. This effect is separate from ATK buffs.)
-"Keypoints of Defense" is removed, and in place another corridor skill "Keypoint of Spirit" is added (15*10, Whenever the user hits an enemy's weakness, increase "Keypoint of Spirit" counter by 3. Increase user's all stats by (counter*2)%. When the user receives a turn or switches to the back, reduce the counter by 1. This counter has a maximum of (SLv).)
-"Seven Celestial Peaches" now has a maxLv of 7 rather than 4.
-"Emergency Treatement Doll" is now stronger (recovers by (MaxHP-CurHP)/3 rather than 5)
-"Black White Reversal" now adds "Boost 150%" in addition to its usual effect.
-"Vampiric Attack" is stronger and receives new effect (now recovers 10% HP, and when the attack is single-target, increase user's all stats by 5% and increase damage by 15%)
-"Fried Tofu Power Up" now has a MaxLv of 8 instead of 5
-Flandre receives a new corridor skill "Roulette of Destruction" (1*66, At the start of each turn randomly grants one of the effects "Bow of Destruction", "Fruits of Destruction", or "Flames of Destruction". Each effect will increase the damage of the corresponding personal spell by 25%.) (It is unstated in the skill description, but these effects go away on the next turn)
-Shou receives a new corridor skill "Avatar's Endeavors" (12*15, At the start of each battle, "Bishamonten's Wrath" counter is set to a random number between (0..SLv).)
-"Shikigami Defense"'s activation rate is now 50%, up from 40%
-Youmu and Sanae's personal offensive spells now have a maxLv of 9
-Alice, Ran and Mystia's personal offensive spells now have a maxLv of 7
-"Supernatural Phenomenon"'s damage multiplier is slightly increased.
-"Knockout in Three Steps"'s damage multiplier is increased, and will ignore 50% DEF
From the bugfixes, it seems that Tokiko's heal wasn't not getting more healing under reading, but rather it was getting more healing regardless of whether Reading is there or not. It seems that without Reading it's only supposed to heal (10+missing MP)%. Also, I found that increasing the spell's level has no effect on the amount of healing.
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Thanks for your post RegalStar!
-Diva's two spells have more delay. (Their postuse is now 2500. Major RIP)
About friggin time'! I couldn't believe 3peso thought Gambler was more unbalanced than Diva
-"Enduring Celestial" is strengthened (Now the initial buff is +33%)
-"More Enduring Celestial" is removed, and in place another corridor skill "Courageous Sword" is added (1*60, When the user is under the effect of DEF or MND buffs, increase the user's ATK by (DEF buff+MND buff)/5. This effect is separate from ATK buffs.)
-"Keypoints of Defense" is removed, and in place another corridor skill "Keypoint of Spirit" is added (15*10, Whenever the user hits an enemy's weakness, increase "Keypoint of Spirit" counter by 3. Increase user's all stats by (counter*2)%. When the user receives a turn or switches to the back, reduce the counter by 1. This counter has a maximum of (SLv).)
-"Seven Celestial Peaches" now has a maxLv of 7 rather than 4.
This is VERY interesting for Tenshi, as she always struggled to muster enough power to do anything in the tank position. Even more interesting when you factor in that this boost goes hand in hand with State of Enlightenment and Iku's passive (and don't forget Thundercloud Stickleback!)
Just how powerful Tenshi becomes remains to be seen (especially since there are many other very powerful NAT nukes such as Suwako and Yuuka), but at least she probably won't be the sitting duck she used to be. I still see her as a sort of niche option for certain bosses, but she probably went from "only bring her if you absolutely need Hisou Sword" to "Bring her against just about any NAT weak boss, as well as any boss requiring Iku's presence"
Oh, and nice defensive improvement with the buffing of Celestial Peaches. I'm really starting to like Tenshi.
-"Emergency Treatement Doll" is now stronger (recovers by (MaxHP-CurHP)/3 rather than 5)
Not bad, though given how Alice is a rather frail, highly evasive mage, I don't think it'll change much for her viability.
-"Black White Reversal" now adds "Boost 150%" in addition to its usual effect.
What's this ability?
-Flandre receives a new corridor skill "Roulette of Destruction" (1*66, At the start of each turn randomly grants one of the effects "Bow of Destruction", "Fruits of Destruction", or "Flames of Destruction". Each effect will increase the damage of the corresponding personal spell by 25%.) (It is unstated in the skill description, but these effects go away on the next turn)
I love how ridiculously random this ability sounds^^ Very Flandre-like!
All the other buffs sound very nice too, albeit not as gamechanging probably. I'm a bit puzzled about the increase in Maxlvl for all those offensive spells - why those chars and not others? Only time will tell.
Either way, is this the final patch we should expect or there is still that major patch scheduled for February?
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There's definitely going to be more patches, this was mostly balance changes and fixes, but there's still two major patches left to go, one that further expands the Endless Corridor, and another that even further expands the Endless Corridor (up to 999F IIRC) and adds in B11F and 28F-30F.
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Just how powerful Tenshi becomes remains to be seen (especially since there are many other very powerful NAT nukes such as Suwako and Yuuka), but at least she probably won't be the sitting duck she used to be. I still see her as a sort of niche option for certain bosses, but she probably went from "only bring her if you absolutely need Hisou Sword" to "Bring her against just about any NAT weak boss, as well as any boss requiring Iku's presence"
Not bad, though given how Alice is a rather frail, highly evasive mage, I don't think it'll change much for her viability.
It's also worth noting that, along with making Tenshi a truly viable attacker (She has really good formulas on her attacks- she just only had remotely viable ATK if Iku was out) she also gets up to +30% more def/mnd/spd and an even bigger base HP boost. She could be a REALLY bulky attacker.
It's worth mentioning awhile back, Tenshi's attacks got a stealth buff; her single-target NTR debuffs ATK and the all-target debuffs MAG and SPD. She's also not just a NTR attacker; SPI-ele Sword of Hisou is also strong apart from just the buff clearing. If you use Iku full-time you could totally run Tenshi as a bulky attacker now, I think. Weakness is a thing, but that's what subclasses are for (Although she'd definitely excel more on NTR/SPI/FIR weak bosses, she can still manage fine for triggering PHYS/WND/CLD- empower normal attack, puncturing thrust, samidare slash; you're only out of luck for MYS and DRK unless you lulz and sub archmage PURELY to hit weakness a few times)
Also, Alice... really isn't frail? Her HP isn't -great-, but it's -definitely- not on the low end, and her DEF is the same (13.6 and 7.8) and she has a very solid 10.6 in mind, in addition to her silly evasion. This heavy regen just further solidifies Alice as most definitely a bulky mage. Just give her DEF/Affinity boost and and Second HP Boost or something. She could make great use of a First Aid Kit now, for that matter. If someone with heavy max HP had an ability like that (recover a third of lost HP) they'd be immortal, but on the likes of Alice it's still nifty as heck; I've seen what it can do on Yukari.
What's this ability?
All the other buffs sound very nice too, albeit not as gamechanging probably. I'm a bit puzzled about the increase in Maxlvl for all those offensive spells - why those chars and not others? Only time will tell.
Black/White Reversal swaps whether Shikieiki's moves use Attack or Magic. So, if the boss resists Spirit or Dark or has major def/mnd, you can swap your build without having to change out what stat Shikieiki is built for; this also makes it slightly easier to use her because she can easily afford one concentration in a boss to swap to single-target Judgment, from the randoms build where she probably wants to be using her MAG all-targets. Throwing on a fairly large boost (Wait, that's even a little better than Grand Incantation) makes the ability truly interesting instead of just a convenience. Although it's a bit awkward since it swaps her element and whether she ignores defenses or not, it's interesting.
As for the attacks... it's an awkward way of increasing their power (Since it only really takes effect quite far into the game), but the reason for those characters and not others is pretty clearly (in most cases) that they are weaker characters. Youmu was still sort of garbage until her corridor awakening, but this is effectively a (rather expensive...) 20% buff to all her damage. Mystia also seriously needed it, and it makes offense Sanae more viable.
...of note is that I ran the numbers, and Sanae's spirit attack is now even stronger than lv5 Start of Heavenly Demise (if SoHD is on someone else and not receiving Sanae's SPI booster, that is). It factors like 1.6x as much MND though, of course. If you sub Sorc, Moses' Miracle also turns into a 307% MAG - 100% MND attack (factoring ONLY the extra levels- so I'm comparing a 5/9 moses to the 1/5 formula on the wiki). Sanae's MAG is a little on the lower end but those formulas, her moderate bulk, and side-support add up into a pretty solid character... and then her corridor makes her pump the entire front row's MP which is pretty sweet. If you use the whole moriya team, her bulk actually gets pretty dang nice and that MAG isn't on the low end anymore, making her totally competitive.
Actually, Moriya team is starting to look -really- nice. Sanae was sort of a weak link as other buff options came up (although byakuren was nerfed enough sanae can sorta compete), but she's getting more towards being a competitive offense option, Kanako is definitely a top contender (corridor gives her Majesty+ for 9% buffs a turn and she gets +50% dmg -25% recieved, so, UH), and Suwako becomes potentially the best glass cannon in the game (competing with Marisa and Flan). Malice Cannon also got nicer since Alice is even more compelling to use.
TBH I'm sort of tempted to run moriya team now, but only after I can afford to awaken at least 2/3 of them, so pretty lategame. I was already considering swapping in Suwako, and Kanako's awakening is lip-biting goodness.
Yuugi's knockout and phenomenon were already previously buffed, and now it's buffed AGAIN, so she's seriously turning into a juggernaut >.> And Remi could seriously use that buff on Vampiric Attack. She's starting to look more like an actually worthwhile bulky attacker, granted I totally would only use her in an SDM team, she's starting to look like a worthwhile use of slot in said team. 11% buffs each turn she uses a single-target attack- if you sub Monk that 15% is, with a strategist or other buff maintainer out, enough to maintain permanent 100%. (Or, she has enough buffs to afford subbing any of Warrior/Murakamo/Swordmaster/Monk to hit weakness)
And Shou is a bit more easily viable as an attacker. Her low attack until the rage counter manages to get rolling is a thing, even if the rage counter makes her potentially amazingly strong in a long boss fight.
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So.... can anyone share some concrete instructions on how to recruit Koishi? The only thing I've read is that she's 'somewhere between 22-24F' but I can't seem to find her. Also read that you need to see 'previous Koishi events' but I've yet to encounter any. For the record... she's the only person I'm missing.
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From the JP wiki on Koishi-
1.Encounter with B1F
2.Encounter with B3F
3.Encounter with 21F
4.If you encounter at 24F join.
Also, hmm, higher max level... means Mystia and Alice's status spells are slightly better. Not a big difference because they only got the 7 max boost and aren't major debuffers, but not half bad- Trip Wire now gives -44% speed debuff at max, and Mystia's PSN/PAR move maxes at 88% proc instead of 80%, and Midnight Chorus Master is up to 120%(!) SIL infliction (she can REALLY activate her 30~40% stat boost from corridor silence boost now). Actually sort of relevant because Mystia practically requires a silenced enemy; with that and "by myself" her base def/mnd is more towards 9.5 (and 15 atk), with roughly 50% more effect from base stat boost things. Still only good in 9 team because she needs silence to become as good as other characters are normally, but.
If only Sanae had lv9 miracle fruits :VV
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Uh... just checked Alice and yeah, looks like you're right - I don't know why I remembered her as frail, oh well. I'm not too much of a fan of the Malice build mostly because there are other characters with good MYS damage output (like Iku) which are also much more versatile than Marisa. Though it's definitely an option vs Mystic-weak bosses or MND-weak bosses.
Also yeah, I can see that the point is to buff those chars, I just was surprised that those chars in particular got picked as there are many other chars out there who could use an offensive boost. That being said, considering I use the whole Moriya team on my main squad, I don't mind at all! :-)
Also, about Shikieiki's ability... is it a corridor ability or something? Because on the previous thread, the only listed ability for Shikieiki was:
Ability to Tell Black from White (1*80): Cleansed Crystal Mirror's effect will activate even if skill holder is in the backlines. If Skill holder is in the front, Rod of Remorse's effect will extend to the whole party, and skill holder will receive double benefit from it.
How does this new Black/White reversal ability work, exactly? Does it cause a "stat shift" upon concentrating, or what?
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Also, about Shikieiki's ability... is it a corridor ability or something? Because on the previous thread, the only listed ability for Shikieiki was:
That list is outdated. Here you go! https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20421.msg1299914.html#msg1299914
Also, yeah, Marisa's not a terribly flexible character. However she is probably the strongest glass cannon in the game, at least, in exchange for it. At least there's Sheer Force to help her out a bit, and Archmage for randoms or non-glass-cannon use. But at least when using, say, Suwako or Flan as a glass cannon instead, they have some limited ability to use other elements. (Suwako can swap to Start of Heavenly Demise if I really needed to... it'd be a pain if I was using that sub on someone else though, admittedly. Suwa's other attacks are so much weaker. TBH it'd probably be easier to outright swap for another glass cannon with only moderate mag/atk investment for the fight)
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According to 2ch's LoT topic, the two diva skills' ATB effect is also reduced from 5000 to 3750, so... even more major RIP.
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The slowdown song was obviously gamebreaking, but it's too bad for the speedup one. Diva is basically a dead class now, only good for it's passives of encounter rate down and the minor exp up.
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I have been using Validon's save file to do an NG+ with all eight plus disk characters, plus Renko/Mari/Rinnosuke/Minoriko to cover some loose ends, and I've made it to 10F so far. It's definitely not a high tier team with a lot of problems, but I've managed to struggle my way through. The big problem is that pretty much everyone on the team requires lots of SKP to really make use of their skills, which I simply don't have at the moment (Renko and Mari ended up doing most of the heavy lifting so far). Mamizou and Tokiko are very helpful even early though; I've been using Tokiko as mostly a healer who can end the fights with a master spark like kick (and maybe a couple of follow-up kicks), and her CLD multi-target spell is also pretty useful in randoms even though it does 0 actual damage to almost everything. Mamizou mostly benefits from the fact that this team is very SHK-heavy; it's pretty much funny to see Tokiko consistently instantly death entire enemy groups in randoms. I've also used Miko as an MP support but that's a bug that got patced so that's that. Pretty much everyone else have just served as generic attackers so far though (Kokoro has been the best of the bunch due to good stats and me complete giving up on investing in her gimmick for now), except Akyuu who had been basically mostly dead weight except on telegraphed high damage moves.
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I dont get it, i never managed to fix the issue on my +Disk version of TH2
its without sound and all the japanese characters are replaced by squares
>Install TH2 = everything ok so far, it shows japanese and sound ON
>Apply 1.203 patch= same as above
>Drop Demo files on the patched folder=everything messes up,sound no longer plays and all kanjis are replaced with squares
anything i am doing wrong? didnt applied the english TH2 files or anything
same result happens if i skip the patch and just drop the demo files on a clean TH2 install
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RIP Diva but it needed to happen. I don't think it needed to be to quite this scale though... (from 7500 post use to 2500??? and 5000 to 3750???)
I've been so busy lately that I haven't started the plus disk content. Not that I want to right now anyway because I still haven't finished my stat gem grinding for my current party. I'm curious if Youmu is strong enough to use without help from the Plus Disk skills now that her base abilities have a higher level cap along with the totally not Grand Incantation skill. It probably won't since the spellcard formulas doesn't change all too much level to level, but maybe just this is enough to push her into usability for the main game.
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I couldn't help it and i took a peek at the enemy folder -WARNING SPOILERS-
WHY IS THE SERPENT OF CHAOS BACK?
Is that another evil looking serpent with 5 eyes yamata no orochi? looks like the game cover enemy,WHY IT HAS 4 DIFFERENT COLORS?
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Oh btw it just dawned to me: since I'm considering replacing Komachi and Eiki with Tenshi and Iku due to the latest changes (luckily I still have around 10 tomes of reincarnation to use), I wanted to ask: how critical is it to have an attacker who can ignore defenses completely, in the Plus Disk? Would it suffice to have, say, the Monk's Iron Mountain Charge or Iku's 80% MND-ignoring normal attack? Or is at least one between Eiki/Kaguya/Rumia a necessity?
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Oh well, and I was using diva Aya to grind B10f lol.
Which is better to build for suwako, Atk or Mag? I was using Mag during the Main game before the post game. Mishaguji was a fantastic trash clearer.
Edit: Another question, is it seem worth it to awaken Maribel as an attacker? Her collidor skill that buff liberated ability to 2x the damage seems really good. I've never used the sealing club before so still a bit curious how it would work, especially Renko, even as my fave character, has drawbacks on her spells.
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Which is better to build for suwako, Atk or Mag? I was using Mag during the Main game before the post game. Mishaguji was a fantastic trash clearer.
I'd build her mostly for ATK, for bosses, but you can moderately invest into MAG and use that in randoms without a big cost. She's one of the most fragile characters in the entire game, so you only have to worry about her ATK, MAG, and SPD, so it's not hard to equip for both stats or swap one piece out sometimes for a boss. Her ability to use either stat means if NTR is resisted, you can sub for a good weakness-hitting attack from -any- subclass to make up for it, so you're probably gonna want some degree of both sooner or later. (I actually only just realized this- I thought she was in big trouble if a boss resisted ntr, but she can always hit weakness! Whew!)
Renko and Maribel are great. Renko's sheer stat potential is crazy due to maintenance and not being as fragile as Nitori and the really strong synergy with Maribel. Mari also has a really good awakening, because Liberated Abilities becomes fairly powerful against any target, and she shares 25% of her buffs as an extra stat increase for the entire front row- and 50% for Renko, making her even more stupid tanky. She's bulkier than you'd expect and with Renko she gets really nice, and has useful support for now and then.
What to actually do with Renko is slightly weird, since you don't want to Galaxy Stop on most bosses and Charge has a powerful effect, but major cost/delay and eats some HP. You can either sub enchanter to give Charge a much lower HP penalty (and maybe just throw some weak enchanter buffs to keep nukers topped off sometimes) or you can sub her something else entirely like Herbalist for less costly support. Her awakening isn't half bad since it turns her normal attack into a 25% damage buff for the party, but you have to do more than 0 damage, so you have to make sure she can... actually do more than 0 damage. Super Drill and MAG gems? >_> Mari synergy and crazy stats ensures she's useful, but there's a lot of different options for what to... actually -do- with her.
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I intend to deal with Renko's Charge drawback by pairing it with Yuuka, as even one Extra Attack procced Gensokyo Reflowering can offset most of the Charge damage (plus, you'd not need to use Charge as often as you can use Gensokyo Reflowering). I'd probably open with Overflowing Unnatural Power, and then only use Charge now and then to refresh, with Gensokyo's Reflowering immediately healing off the dmg taken.
EDIT: Any input about whether or not piercing damage (I mean, Eiki-level kind of piercing, not Monk-like or Iku-like) is a must in Plus Disk?
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Kaggy still only ignores 90%, for your earlier comment. (same with Utsuho) And since Iku gets double from debuffs, as soon as one is landed she ignores 90~95% easy. Eiki and Rumia are the exclusive sources of fully ignoring damage IIRC, barring Iku landing a hit on a 50% debuffed enemy or the minor amount from Piercing Attack.
Since NO plus disk characters have anything of note in terms of getting through defense, I can't imagine it's too terribly critical. As long as you have a couple characters with -something- decent (piercing attack, 80~90% piercing skills, maybe another with more normal levels of low-def-influence skills as those are somewhat common) you should be okay, I figure. That, or a willingness to swap a character or two out for certain bosses, as I've heard a few high defense ones are still around. (Not too hard to swap out for a piercing character with a glass-cannon build where you only worry about their atk or mag)
That being said I haven't played through much of plus. :T I can't imagine they're going to require Eiki when she's the only character that can really do it though.
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Kaguya and Okuu did all my heavy duty jobs of killing any huge def enemies. But yeah there're other options as Selera stated.
I was testing enchanter Renko. I've noticed that the tooltip for my frontliners other than Renko only says "the ability to read star" in Japanese. I've got both skills moon and stars. Are they working together or only one is taking effect?
Also I believe that the bugs regarding all of the sealing club's members are fixed, right?
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I was testing enchanter Renko. I've noticed that the tooltip for my frontliners other than Renko only says "the ability to read star" in Japanese. I've got both skills moon and stars. Are they working together or only one is taking effect?
Even if you only have moon, it will say stars. As far as I know it's working as it's supposed to, nothing on the jp wiki says it's messed up. Reading the stars is Renko's canon ability so I guess they didn't want to bother to code a different name when both are combined, or make it clog up the status bar with two different skills with how often it's up.
As far as I know the sealing club works fine now. edit:Test shows the stat boost from sealing club is definitely working
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There's this one boss that you have to beat for a sigil to access 22F with lots of defense, but it's also very weak to poison so you can just drain its HP with that and then poke it once with something. (Kaguya or Eiki do make it a joke though since it's weak to SPI).
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I managed to fix the sound issue, but still the text issue remains
All my text is replaced with squares if i try running the +disk demo, yet my original japanese and the english patched one displays fine
any idea of what might be causing it?
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Are you running the plus disk demo ontop of an english patched copy? That may cause issues.
edit:Well, I said that, but as long as you are using the plus.exe and not the english patch exe it shouldn't, actually.
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There's this one boss that you have to beat for a sigil to access 22F with lots of defense, but it's also very weak to poison so you can just drain its HP with that and then poke it once with something. (Kaguya or Eiki do make it a joke though since it's weak to SPI).
I don't mind switching around chars for a single boss - I do remember, say, switching in Kanako just to beat Utsuho in LoT1 Plus Disk (that boss was insane). My worry was mostly about (1) random encounters, and (2) Endless Corridor, because especially for Endless Corridor, switching around characters is not really possible so I need a team which can cover everything. And while Eiki sounds like a boon in so many ways, I feel Iku and Tenshi together cover more roles (like, I checked some of the Plus Disk basement bosses and there are so many where I'd rather have Sword of Hisou than a piercing attack^^).
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Are you running the plus disk demo ontop of an english patched copy? That may cause issues.
edit:Well, I said that, but as long as you are using the plus.exe and not the english patch exe it shouldn't, actually.
I googled the issue and just downloaded the japanese pack font for windows looks like it fixed it
I still find odd how the original japanese runs perfectly and i had to download the japanese pack for the plus version
EDIT:Here is a screenie, left is plus and right is normal, left looks abit more....sharper? kanjis more closer? not sure how to explain it
(http://i.imgur.com/mlT7JuH.jpg)
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your right has a partial English patch on it because the shrine is in English ...
that probably explains your whatever you need explaining.
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No, that's because it's his non-expansion game, so it's running in the same folder/files as his english patch'd one. This means it's using the translated image files. Everything else is in the .exe for the game, so if you run the game off the non-english .exe file, you're effectively running a totally unpatched game- just with the edited pictures showing up.
What probably happened is the dev changed the font the game uses in Plus version, and not all windows installations have this new one by default.
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As a devout Eiki user, I say she is... alright. Her damage is always high, and always constant, so while she is really good, she isn't as satisfying to watch. Eiki's new skill only looks good if you want to clear trash, but you have her built for Last Judgement. I'm sad Diva Aya was nerred to hell and back, but she allowed you to smack enemies to hell and back so it's karma I guess. Youmu's buff is great, because now she might be usable. Sanae is even better, because she was good before, now better! Mystia is good without her synergies, st least with my experience. Her atk is high (at least mine has high atk). She is hella fast, especially with insrant attack. Her synergies and silence buffs are just icing on the cake.
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Are there any fonts specific to this game someone might be missing? It's displaying fine for me, but someone I told the game about to said they're getting text cutoff and it doesn't look the same as mine, also some lines in the menu are untranslated. I sent him the same english patch I used. Only thing I can think of is he's probably not using applocale or Japan region since Windows 10.
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I am a fan of making Renko a Guardian. With Easygoing she regens HP when she Concentrates, and Guardian gives her Efficient Concentration to make it faster. Throw on a piece of HP Regen-boosting equipment and she can full-heal herself while tanking pretty easily.
Incidentally, I'm a fan of having Renko Charge immediately followed by Mary DIY Novice Barrier to heal it off. The two make for a really strong duo.
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Renko Guardian definitely isn't a bad option. Although it's also interesting to give her a first aid kit and just let her natural regen with Maribel do it's work... but when you consider you could also easily give her 100+ eva with the main equip or significantly increase her def/mnd (compounded by the sealing club and vision sharing increases to def/mnd, which don't affect hp/eva) jeez, there's a lot of great ways to build her.
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Something about Futo's plates is that it doesn't just get reduced from being attacked; Any sort of move that affects Futo (including auxiliary moves and even Concentrate) will reduce it by 1. I reported this but it didn't get changed in 1.103, so...
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Aww jeez! That's a pretty bad bug for her. I can't possibly imagine it's on purpose, though, so hopefully eventually?
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I am a fan of making Renko a Guardian. With Easygoing she regens HP when she Concentrates, and Guardian gives her Efficient Concentration to make it faster. Throw on a piece of HP Regen-boosting equipment and she can full-heal herself while tanking pretty easily.
Incidentally, I'm a fan of having Renko Charge immediately followed by Mary DIY Novice Barrier to heal it off. The two make for a really strong duo.
That doesn't feel like a bad idea, though I'd prefer to give her Strategist to make her and Maribel's buff stick around for longer (Especially since I'll use them with Yuuka and Miko, who further appreciate longer buffs)
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Come to think of it, how does library levels work? Is it a fixed value on each level or the value is according to a character's stats. Like, if I get 100 level health on someone like Komachi, that 100 level of health for Komachi will be more than one 100 levels on someone like Kaguya?
Just want to be sure how to spend things and this might help in customizing a character :D
Something about Futo's plates is that it doesn't just get reduced from being attacked; Any sort of move that affects Futo (including auxiliary moves and even Concentrate) will reduce it by 1. I reported this but it didn't get changed in 1.103, so...
So right now she's really hard to use? Since if buffing her means having a plate reduced....
As for Renko, I'm currently giving her enchanter to lessen the damage on charge and to make it powerful enough that my strategist Byakuren just chant herself and a 100% buff is there for the rest of the fight.
But this seems to waste a lot of free turns that a Renko with maintenance, which in turns makes her really fast, gets. Since I already have Byakuren for buffing after the charge and Renko turns are just free turns since you don't want to use Galaxy stop in many cases. I'm considering to change her into other subclass to provide other utilities instead.
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Come to think of it, how does library levels work? Is it a fixed value on each level or the value is according to a character's stats. Like, if I get 100 level health on someone like Komachi, that 100 level of health for Komachi will be more than one 100 levels on someone like Kaguya?
It's another %age bonus to character stats, like equipment. So with a better base stat, you'll get more out of it. (And yes, if you increase their base later, you'll still get the benefit; it's not a one-time stat addition, it's a permanent %age bonus)
Level-up bonuses work the same way. Don't ask me which order these are all grouped in, though XD But I think equipment comes last (or at least one of the later ones), because in LoT1 it definitely didn't, so after plus disk inflation the stat bonus from equipment got kinda small on everything except SP (which you didn't need), and obviously affinities/resists. Wheras here as far as I can tell equipment boosts are still massive.
Yeah, Futo sounds kinda hard to use now, but it also sounds like it's definitely a bug, and one that major can't go ignored for too long, I imagine... hopefully >.> As for Renko, yeah, that's why I stopped subbing her enchanter too. Charge has a heavy cost and 0% delay, ontop of the HP cost, once most characters are buffed up it doesn't see a whole lot of use due to all those drawbacks; yet with her great Maribel synergy I still want her out. So, time to sub something else. Herbalist as usual is a good sub for just giving a support more things to do, especially as she's the only character too pathetic to easily use healer.
At least her awakening gives her a great option in just using the attack command like a free party-wide Herb of Awakening, granted it only works half the time unless you give her enough firepower to not hit zeroes >.> Well, that'd fix the Healer issue... having passive regen and the heal skills in addition to Charge and the buffed attack command sounds perfect.
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Post game showed us a glimpse of a few bosses that dispelled buffs so Enchanter Renko will still be my go to. My main party of 12 is still basically unmovable at this point. There are a few characters that interest me enough/ are waifu enough for me to run "suboptimally" but as far as actually feeling like Plus Disk characters will improve my team, a lot of that will have to come down to personal testing.
Marisa was among my main 12 for a long time but once I gave Yuuka a chance and tried her out, Marisa got the boot even though I really like Alice and MAlice Cannon. I just didn't need to utilize the MYS element offensively often enough and even if I do in the Plus Disk, Alice takes care of that with Hanged Hourai Dolls.
Satori was in my party for a large portion of the early and mid game but ultimately, she was too squishy and was too cumbersome to use due being limited to spells my frontline has. I might give her another shot and focus either ATK / MAG and see where that gets me. I'm realizing that Komachi and Byakuren are out in front almost all the time and their spellcards have nice formulas / effects so maybe Satori can make it back in.
So far, Kokoro, Koishi, and Tokiko are the only ones I want to try out to see if I want to add them to my team. Team synergy doesn't account for much since I'd have to have liked them enough standalone to be put on the team but I guess Proof of Kinship might make me rethink certain characters that have synergies. I still feel reluctant to overhaul my team to do so though.
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In postgame, I think Satori actually starts getting more use out of subclass spells than the average copied spell, due to being able to get them to lv5 instead of lv0. Generic spells like Penetrator and Aspiration Surge become about as strong as most good attacks, albiet they don't carry special effects- but then strong skills like Explosive Flame Sword and the postgame subclass ones are much stronger than any but the best copy skills like Avici, Mountain Breaker, and good composite attacks like Fantasy Seal.
That might sound kind of terrible (Anyone can subclass for these skills!), but since her corridor awakening gives her a big boost on hitting weakness in addition to her normal one, her ability to subclass for any weakness slaying move in ATK or MAG becomes relevant. (This is a good talent on any character with both good offense stats if you're willing to mess with their build, but might be a pain on people who aren't glass cannons and need more complicated equipment swaps) Unfortunately she still doesn't really do a compelling amount of damage for her squishiness now that Gambler is nerfed (Other people get damage boosts too...) unless it's Avici/Gathering-Dissipating or you running Earth Spirits >.> She can get some durability out of Quartz Charm and HP tweaking or something, but it only goes so far. It seems like Satori is only good in postgame if you're using her Max HP Damage awakening ability as a supporty hybrid wall, or running the family team to boost her base stats into something more compelling (along with boosting the other's)
It's also worth noting that some characters have exciting enough awakening abilities that Plus Disk characters aren't the only ones to consider putting in your team for postgame. (But you only get a handful of awakenings until pretty late in, admittedly.)
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Even if the copied damage spells peter off, I'd imagine that copied support spells are still relevant. At least it's something interesting that she can do when the need arises.
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Copied support is interesting for an HP wall build using her awakening HP damage. Otherwise, she's only a step over glass cannon due to nice HP, but without actually doing more damage than the really bulky attackers (even WITH the awakening weakness boost)... so being able to copy support doesn't justify the squish.
To compare, Mamizou is an HP squish attacker too, but in addition to damage up in awakening, she also gets a big dmg taken decrease and always hits weakness -without- shuffling subclasses, along with several other benefits.
I liked Satori back when she could sub Gambler and fire off people's skills at way stronger levels than they can, but now she's glassy for little benefit >.> I figure that's why he threw in the HP Wall role for her.
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It's another %age bonus to character stats, like equipment. So with a better base stat, you'll get more out of it. (And yes, if you increase their base later, you'll still get the benefit; it's not a one-time stat addition, it's a permanent %age bonus)
Level-up bonuses work the same way. Don't ask me which order these are all grouped in, though XD But I think equipment comes last (or at least one of the later ones), because in LoT1 it definitely didn't, so after plus disk inflation the stat bonus from equipment got kinda small on everything except SP (which you didn't need), and obviously affinities/resists. Wheras here as far as I can tell equipment boosts are still massive.
So to make the most out of the money spent, I better pour the cash into the "better" stat that character has? Or pour it into stat that has been boosted by gems.
I thought it was a fixed amount so I put quite amount of HP into my Kaguya and still she manages to die in most situations lol.
Also, by "base", do you mean the level one stat or the growth of that stat? Or both? Since some character has same level one stats but different growth so I can't be too sure.
In postgame, I think Satori actually starts getting more use out of subclass spells than the average copied spell, due to being able to get them to lv5 instead of lv0. Generic spells like Penetrator and Aspiration Surge become about as strong as most good attacks, albiet they don't carry special effects- but then strong skills like Explosive Flame Sword and the postgame subclass ones are much stronger than any but the best copy skills like Avici, Mountain Breaker, and good composite attacks like Fantasy Seal.
How much does leveling up a spell card do for damage? I don't think this was stated anywhere. Like 10% each level?
As for Satori, I doubt the HP damage role will be that effective since we're talking about bosses with more than 20 million HP approaching into the Plus disk and at most the damage from the skill will be a supporting damage.
With highest HP boosting equipment and all the skillpoints toward HP, I get my Satori to roughly 500-550K HP, which would mean about 250k damage per her turn. Unless you're running her with Reisen, for example, I don't think it's going to do much since main damage dealers do millions in one hit, and I have Keine and Rinnosuke to make those millions come out faster.
Speaking of which I think I have too many supporting, buffing tanks. Byakuren,awakened Keine,Hina,Rinnosuke,Reimu for the heal,Renko for when I run Maribel and Eirin in some occasion. Maybe I should switch some buffers out for damage instead :P
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I thought it was a fixed amount so I put quite amount of HP into my Kaguya and still she manages to die in most situations lol.
Kaguya can become more durable than expected, her MND is actually -very- good, as are her affinities (and her DEF isn't beyond saving with gems, surprisingly), but she has perhaps the second lowest HP in the game to deal with. It basically REQUIRES a first aid kit to fix, but if you do, you can start getting somewhere. Give her an HP boost tome too!
Lv1 stats are pretty much completely meaningless, by the way. But it would be too much effort to completely remove them from the wiki. We mean the base growth. This can be viewed ingame on the second page of the status screen, one of the buttons scrolls it, but the wiki is generally easier.
Leveling spellcards increases damage (or healing) by 5%. So Satori copies deal about a quarter less damage than the max leveled attacks you'll likely have at that point in the game. Her non-awakening passive only barely fixes that up if she hits weakness. If you aren't copying the small handful of special spells (Last Judgment, Avici), there's not really any point to using her now that she can't even gamble for a 90% damage boost, and even then it's dubious- and her awakening -only- helps if she's hitting weakness with those attacks. Basically, RIP Satori.
About HP build Satori... it's sad to hear that ;_; On the upside, it's completely defense/affinity ignoring damage, and if you do pair her with a low-delay move user it's not half bad (although likely more effort than it's truly worth against all but the tankiest bosses- but at least it's good against those?). Well, it's something; when you consider she can use support skills AND deal that damage, it's vaguely...? Ah, oh well. But yeah, that's... a little too many tanks. Rinnosuke is kinda redundant if you're using Keine though I think, he's sorta outclassed in general for Plus unless you run Shou. And whilst Reimu is REALLY good after awakening, there's a reason I'm trying to drop her and use Rumia+Mari for MT heals instead; so many support characters! (We'll see if I can get away with it... Reimu tank looks incredibly helpful, and also enables a powerful offense tokiko)
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back to LoT1 briefly, I've started another NG+ run but this time with the idea of aiming for a relatively OP team to keep consistently throughout maingame, with a focus on usefulness in the last half rather than earlygame usefulness.
I've got Meiling, Reimu, Orin, Suwako, Ran, Nitori, Alice, Kaugya, Yuugi, Minoriko, Iku and Keine
Some of these should be obvious, I wasn't thinking about elemental spread when i was going for these so I may end up not having nukes in certain elements (like WND).
This gives me healers in Reimu/Minoriko with Meiling as a lil backup.
Nukes in Orin (FIR), Suwako (NTR and a supplemental MYS attack), Nitori, Alice (FIR), Yuugi (FIR), Kaguya (SPI). <on second thought this could have been spread a lot better :v
Bulky characters in Meiling, Reimu, Ran, Alice, Iku, Keine with Yuugi/Kaguya as one sided bulk.
Buffers in Reimu, Ran, Kaguya, Minoriko, Iku and Keine
So I guess this is a defensively oriented team, but thats fine.
Was tempted to pick up Marisa but I always tend to drop her when it comes to about floor 13 anyway so I figured I wouldn't bother.
I maybe also didn't need Minoriko since I've always gotten through the maingame just fine with only Reimu as a healer but I figure Minoriko can't hurt for extra heals and buffs and I couldn't really think of anyone else to put in her place anyway. I needed Keine to supplement Iku's offensive buffs since Ran could not reliably help cos of SP issues.
Maybe the weirdest choice in this entire list is Orin, but I wanted a faster character and she's more viable lategame than Chen/Aya because her damage is constantly good while the other two peter off towards the end.
I've already started the run so the team's not gonna change but feedback would be appreciated anyway.
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You have Meiling, Minoriko and Reimu; you should have no problem whatsoever.
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Hilariously, I also restarted my LoT1 run because the previous run I mentioned before became so painful with 5 Plus Disk characters that I just redo it. The only problem ended up being that my only healer in my team now is Reimu (the team being Meiling, Kanako, Sakuya, Marisa, Reimu, Youmu, Kaguya, Reisen, Tenshi, Ran, Renko, and Remilia), but I have pretty insane debuff potential so the only bosses that'll give me trouble are ones that resist debuffs I'm fairly sure (if I actually see this run through).
Otherwise, that team sounds fairly solid, might be a little troublesome early on because of the usual early game SP concerns (which is the main reason why Plus Disk characters are absolute garbage early game, even Eiki is no good when you can only afford to have her attack once or twice per boss fight, no matter how strong her attacks are) but nowhere near as bad as my great idea to have 5 Plus Disk chars in one party whose name isn't "Mystia" (the only Plus Disk char in my opinion who doesn't suffer nearly as bad as the others early game and can pretty much last you the game because she's just great all-around).
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Well, I once tried a healer-less run even (with RNG-ed chars, no less). It's not THAT bad, but... some fights can get pretty brutal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J90aIV2EYhw
EDIT: If you want I can upload Rinnosuke too if you need to see more of my suffering^^
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Maybe the weirdest choice in this entire list is Orin, but I wanted a faster character and she's more viable lategame than Chen/Aya because her damage is constantly good while the other two peter off towards the end.
LoT1 Aya actually explodes in usefulness as you get towards plus and her SP soars; she's the plus disk version of Chen after she can afford to spam the hell out of Peerless Wind God, keeping a maxed speed buff up to make up for higher delay (You just need Iku out to keep refreshing her atk). Chen definitely starts petering off as you head into plus, but it's where Aya starts picking up. I used her all the way through WINNER and, while sadly there's a lot of WND resistant bosses in plus, she actually -still- did rather high damage against them (not including the serpent of chaos' 500(?) wnd resist... RIP yuyuko too for that fight, another Plus Disk bloomer). It was really good.
But yeah, Orin's a nice speedster. Blazing Wheel is helpful for randoms and does well in bosses. While your team might be slightly low on element variety, you've always got the character's non-main-nuke moves, so it's not a big deal.
Ran is a fabulous attacker if you choose to build her that way, by the way. Soaring En No Ozuno is stronger than you might expect once you buff up, and it's got a wonderful delay you don't see on many good attacks in LoT1.
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Yeah I remember trying out Aya in plus and she got really good, however I haven't really decided if I'm taking this team to plus, and Orin's way better for maingame than Aya, and she can still hold her own in plus too.
I'm stuck deciding whether to take ran as an attacker or a tankier character. So far I've put 5 levels in Mag and 5 in Def so I could probably go either way but I guess with the amount of bulk and buffs I have I could afford to let her attack more than support.
I might also see how far I can get Reimu to deal good damage with only a minor extra investment into her Mag than usual. She puts up really fantastic numbers early game tbh and I know she falls flat really fast but its quite nice while it lasts.
Also I feel like if there's one character I'm going to come to regret it'll be Yuugi. Could've probably chosen better there.
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Kaguya can become more durable than expected, her MND is actually -very- good, as are her affinities (and her DEF isn't beyond saving with gems, surprisingly), but she has perhaps the second lowest HP in the game to deal with. It basically REQUIRES a first aid kit to fix, but if you do, you can start getting somewhere. Give her an HP boost tome too!
Lv1 stats are pretty much completely meaningless, by the way. But it would be too much effort to completely remove them from the wiki. We mean the base growth. This can be viewed ingame on the second page of the status screen, one of the buttons scrolls it, but the wiki is generally easier.
Leveling spellcards increases damage (or healing) by 5%. So Satori copies deal about a quarter less damage than the max leveled attacks you'll likely have at that point in the game. Her non-awakening passive only barely fixes that up if she hits weakness. If you aren't copying the small handful of special spells (Last Judgment, Avici), there's not really any point to using her now that she can't even gamble for a 90% damage boost, and even then it's dubious- and her awakening -only- helps if she's hitting weakness with those attacks. Basically, RIP Satori.
About HP build Satori... it's sad to hear that ;_; On the upside, it's completely defense/affinity ignoring damage, and if you do pair her with a low-delay move user it's not half bad (although likely more effort than it's truly worth against all but the tankiest bosses- but at least it's good against those?). Well, it's something; when you consider she can use support skills AND deal that damage, it's vaguely...? Ah, oh well. But yeah, that's... a little too many tanks. Rinnosuke is kinda redundant if you're using Keine though I think, he's sorta outclassed in general for Plus unless you run Shou. And whilst Reimu is REALLY good after awakening, there's a reason I'm trying to drop her and use Rumia+Mari for MT heals instead; so many support characters! (We'll see if I can get away with it... Reimu tank looks incredibly helpful, and also enables a powerful offense tokiko)
Well, at least we might be able to count on these buffs that are coming out for some characters. 3peso might see that our poor satori needs help and need something to save her from mediocrecy, aside from the earth spirit party buff. Things would go better for her if she weren't so squishy since the ability that helps other frontliner do more damage with weaknesses would see more use. A possible set up for her can be 1 2 slots for tanks and buffers, 3rd one for Okuu or Koishi, preferably Okuu since Koishi, at least IMO, is kinda unreliable lol as much as I love her as a character. Her main damage with low delay has -10 acc, it tends to miss in crucial moments and evasion is not something you want to rely on when boss can one shot your best girl. With the 4th slot Satori, we can use Okuu to a higher degree with Satori do whatever she's capable off.
As for lot1 I haven't played it so I can't really comment :P
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I'm kind of surprised with how squishy Satori is considering her blue mage status. She can't do enough damage now that gambler's out to justify her being so squishy. She's got really high HP, but nothing in her kit actually helps her make that work apart from the max hp damage awakening- which delegates her into an unusual support instead. (It could be really neat if she was a little more suited to tanking, but as I said- nothing helpful in her kit) I'd -like- to use her because I really like Satori, but I just can't see a reason to; it was fun to run Gambler Satori before plus, though. (With waifu-grade tweaking and the full earth spirits team for synergy boost you can give her durability, but that's a lot of rare def/mnd gems...)
Also, inaccurate attack moves really aren't a problem. Just make sure one of Koishi's equips has some accuracy bonus on it. It's on plenty of nice enough equipment. And Koishi, at least with some tweaking, can take a hit. Okuu is a bit more suited to it though, yeah. Okuu's main problem is just she needs a few turns to ramp up (Fighting Spirit, Overheating, and High Blazing all rely on it- time to use attack a few times first? Maybe even sub Sorc for it instead of transcendant for bulk up? She could use the bulk though, depends on preference)
He seems to be paying a good bit of attention to bringing up the characters who are lagging behind (and it's actually working- Tenshi's awakening was COMPLETELY revamped and even flipped roles from tank to attacker and is really cool looking now! Flan grade atk with Iku out, dang!), so maybe Satori will get something or another after awhile. It can be hard to judge her when she's a blue mage, though, but... her blue magery mostly falls off in plus with it all being lv0 >.> I was surprised she didn't get "Recollection Enhancement" or something to boost up their levels, but as she is, that's not quite enough anyway... it'd help though. (She could copy aya's turn move then *coughs*)
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Edit: I dabbled around with Satori some more since I had a feeling my memory was off, having her not be a gambler and with no family bonus - and I have to say she's probably not worth bothering with if you don't give her that massive bonus proof of kinship provides, and even then it's fairly shaky. Even with such great formulas, it turns out that not having much in the way of passives to back you up along with high level difficulty and not super-great base stats is pretty crippling. Even her Master Spark was pretty ho-hum.
She still probably has potential, but without gambler there's some serious need for buffs here, though I unfortunately forsee him being conservative on her simply due to the fact she can access such bonkers shit that was intended to be balanced by people who couldn't use them effectively.
I think the trick to using Satori is pairing her with people where she can abuse and make the most of multiple things - for example, if she was in a front line with Reisen and Maribel, you could have her use Grand Patriot's Elixir to go super sayian, then abuse her newfound super stats with Liberated Abilities to have twice the Void. Or use her in a front line with Renko to get 2x Charge off super quickly, and then be able to actually abuse the 202% MAG - 28% T.MND formula of Galaxy Stop with Satori's much higher magic. Or, say, Suika's Gathering and Dissipating, which is 4(+1) MP Wind Row 400% MAG - 100% T.MND. Komachi has a similar move in Narrow Confines, 400% MAG - 100% T.MND spirit that hits all for 6(+1) mp, along with a pretty fantastic 300% ATK - 75% T.DEF 6(+1) MP Physical attack, and she's a tank so no going out of your way to have them both out. Meiling's absurd 320% ATK - 40% T.DEF 3(+1) MP Physical Mountain Breaker comes to mind as another fantastic move (and you don't really have to go out of your way for it since Meiling is already a tank). There's also ran's (150% ATK + 188% MAG) - 75% T.DEF 4(+1) MP row attack with extremely low delay. You can also double up on the Poison chances at the start of the fight with her and Wriggle out, double the chances to instant death with her and Yuyuko out, and double the Shackles with her and either Yuugi or Alice out. You get double the Super Scope 3D or Master Spark too!
While I still need to try her further, I feel like you're underselling Satori a bit in the plus disc. Sure, Gambler nerfs suck, but she still has access to some pretty fantastic attacks if you're willing to jump through varying degrees of hoops that will correspond to how much effort you're willing to put in (and at the worst you can get either Komachi's or Meiling's attacks if you use either of them as tanks and they have some pretty incredible formulas), and if nothing else she's unusually flexible in what she can do during an average turn. Though I do hope that she gets a awakening skill that helps her out generally while still keeping that flexiblity - some sort of tank enhancement would do well for her, I think.
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I maybe also didn't need Minoriko since I've always gotten through the maingame just fine with only Reimu as a healer but I figure Minoriko can't hurt for extra heals and buffs and I couldn't really think of anyone else to put in her place anyway. I needed Keine to supplement Iku's offensive buffs since Ran could not reliably help cos of SP issues.
Sanae should have been a strong consideration over Minoriko, since strong / fast healing isn't as important when you have Reimu and Meiling and having a secondary way to heal status ailments would be nice.
Edit: Finally did some testing with Satori and the results were as expected. She can only do comparable damage to dedicated nukers (Kaguya and Eiki with SPI) when the she's copying silly formulas like Komachi's Narrow Confines. This was done against the main game final boss. This isn't good enough especially when the only tank I use with silly formulas is Komachi.
Edit2: Did some more testing, this time comparing Knockout in 3 Steps with Yuugi versus atk built Satori using Mountain Breaker and the damage is also comparable but I don't use Meiling at all so.... And although the damages are comparable when you compare post use, its not like I want Satori staying out after using Mountain Breaker anyway because she can't take any hits...
Here's to hoping Satori gets some bulk or something because this is just sad. Maybe she can get a skill that lets her copy spells at a reduced cost rather than raised cost. Or a skill that lets her copy spells at full power, which isn't actually too crazy. She'd do as much damage as dedicated nukers but she would lack the lopsided defenses to balance out her flexibility. Kaguya has respectable MND and Eiki has respectable DEF and other nukers are under similar cases.
Or just keep her the same offensively but raise her defenses to not be toilet paper levels. By jumping through a few hoops, Satori can deal less damage than dedicated nukers but have more bulk than dedicated nukers which sounds perfectly acceptable.
That said, the only two spells currently worth a damn are Narrow Confines and Mountain Breaker. Suika's Gathering and Dissipating is too impractical to actually realize. Ran's composite spell actually won't do much since experience has told me that splitting resources between ATK and MAG isn't viable. Even if you went pure ATK / MAG and used a composite spell, after seeing how underwhelming pure MAG Galaxy Stop is, there's almost no way Ran's composite spell will fair much better on Satori.
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A couple of notes to add to the satori discussion:
I havent fully tested this yet, but the damage bonus from trauma recollection seems to stack multiplicatively with most other damage bonuses, so as an offensive support she works very well with other characters that have a ton of damage boosting skills of their own, although unfortunately this doesnt help her own damage very much.
Probably more importantly, spiriting away appears to work just fine for satori, and as it so happens small MP recovery is wildly broken on a character that can use that spell :V
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I think the trick to using Satori is pairing her with people where she can abuse and make the most of multiple things
Unfortunately most of those pairings don't work that well. Double Charge is 66% hp damage to the row (VERY not good), Galaxy Stop will still eat the front line's ATB (it's formula pierces some mnd but really isn't special, and she'd have lv0 status infliction rates), and sadly, without possessing any damage boosters (apart from weakness boost to let her hit "normal" damage instead of lv0 damage... if she can hit weakness), her bad level rate, and her only moderately good offense stats, 300% attack formulas really will only do about as much (or more likely, less) than what any good attacker can do. The 400% attacks, Judgment/Giga Flare, and 3D Super Scope/Master Spark are the only truly -useful- copy attacks, and two of those are only special against the really tanky bosses. Even Mountain Breaker just manages keeps up with what other characters can pull off- which is not good considering Satori can't take a hit where most characters can, unlike LoT1.
...speaking of that, oh, huh, using her with Yukari's Spiriting Away is actually nice. I suppose in very specific parties (Yukari+Nitori+Marisa+Eiki and/or Utsuho) you might collect enough useful blue mage moves to justify a party slot. With the right equips her HP can be enough to keep her out in the front safely for a short while, so if the value of piercing defense is enough, or if you need a second Spark... (Or you're being silly and Spiriting Away a bunch, which sounds potentially neat) ...but there's still the issue that she's only a little better than a glass cannon, and the actual glass cannons generally do better and are hard enough to use as it is until you get awakened Keine. Spiriting Away is what manages to tip the scales a little.
Ran's composite spell actually won't do much since experience has told me that splitting resources between ATK and MAG isn't viable. Even if you went pure ATK / MAG and used a composite spell, after seeing how underwhelming pure MAG Galaxy Stop is, there's almost no way Ran's composite spell will fair much better on Satori.
You always go all in on the higher offense stat for composities, and then use equipment that boosts both when you can. That being said, the move isn't half bad (A decent rule of thumb for composites with roughly equal base offense stats is, cut the influence of the lower offense stat in HALF, and add it to the other, so it's roughly 265%, which is... not bad, but not special. Sorc can make it good with +30%, but since it's on Satori, it's not like she can use the low delay much.) It's great on Ran but stay-out attacks don't really work for Satori who must get in and back out or just die.
and yeah, boosting the front row's weakness hitting is nice, but with her durability it only works in HP Wall Form. If she had some more tanking ability it could be pretty nice. As it is, it's -possible- you might get decent damage out of running her as a wall when you combine Awakening HP Damage, boosting weakness hits on the party, AND doing some form of support herself (herbs of awakening?). She ignores all the self-buffing bosses in postgame, but she has no damage reduction or regen to synergize with her HP... :T Even as a "tank", she looks to capitalize on weakness boost and HP damage to, in actuality, be an extremely unorthodox attacker herself.
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Keep in mind Charge is -33% of current HP. Double charges eats away 55% of current HP, not 66%. (This is also why Enhancer Charge is actually not -17% all the time; it's less if the targets have less than max HP, and in cases of if you use it when someone just ate a Black Universe or something it will even heal them.)
But yes Satori with Spiriting Away is potentially silly. I saw on a Chinese forum once that someone noted that if she has 99 max MP she can potentially set up a finite loop with Murakumo's Blessing subclass, Yukari, Aya, and some attacker (number of loops is dependent on Aya's MaxMP).
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Hah, that's pretty funny. Although keep in mind Spiriting Away eats one's entire max mp pool, so she'd -have- to be swapping. Also, with double mp boost and 10 mp gems at like lv420 I think she only gets to about 65? You get equips to help, though.
At that level of mp she can also really get somewhere with reisen burst damage off max hp.
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According to @wiki, your characters do have hidden, different levels of resistance to VOI element. Apparently, Kaguya takes about 20-30% more damage, Nazrin/Eirin/Eiki takes 33% less (though the numbers show up as red), Komachi takes about 40% less, Parsee/Flandre/Koishi/Akyuu takes about 50% less, and Mari takes about 75% less.
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You know how I said my team was weak, right? Well... now after Yuyu's Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana + Aya + Reisen farming floor 21, I am getting like 5 levels, per run, and with the INSANE item drops (for my level, ONE 400% Def item made Tenshi unkillable). So, the new weak people grinding spot is officially floor 21, just with a bit of rng, you get alot of profit!
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Also, inaccurate attack moves really aren't a problem. Just make sure one of Koishi's equips has some accuracy bonus on it. It's on plenty of nice enough equipment.
I just want that slot to be something that boosts more damage or tankiness lol. Yeah it's a minor frustration but it still is.
Satori might be kinda sad right now but at least I have good things to say about the earth spirit party, namely Okuu and Orin both awakened. Both of them are really dependable as of now. Orin might require a bit of luck but once she decides that she wants to attack many times, it's rainin' needles. On physical weak bosses once she saved with 4 times needle, instantly won a losing boss battle. :D
Okuu is great once you get a fews turn going. Hells tokamak debuff mind and has higher multiplier in plus, I think. This deals huge amount of damage after 2 turns, the boss doesn't even have to be weak to fire. And giga flare really feels like you're nuking a boss with the effect and number on screen. Needless to say she's great in damage race.
You know how I said my team was weak, right? Well... now after Yuyu's Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana + Aya + Reisen farming floor 21, I am getting like 5 levels, per run, and with the INSANE item drops (for my level, ONE 400% Def item made Tenshi unkillable). So, the new weak people grinding spot is officially floor 21, just with a bit of rng, you get alot of profit!
Yeah that was how I grind floor 21 lol.
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Plus Disk in general have encounters designed like 20F depths; difficult battles with big rewards. Of course they're only difficult if you take on them honorably; using Aya or Tactician+3 Monks will still trivialize most of them.
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I just want that slot to be something that boosts more damage or tankiness lol. Yeah it's a minor frustration but it still is.
Well yeah- but once I cared enough to look I realized a lot of equipment I would have been interested in -anyway- also has accuracy bonuses on it. I can't say what Plus Disk equips would do it, but page 6 has the Compact Arm and Cobra Sniper Rifle with mag/hp/mnd bonuses in addition to lots of acc. (From what I saw of plus equipment it blows all the earlier stuff out of the water pretty fast, though)
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Plus Disk in general have encounters designed like 20F depths; difficult battles with big rewards. Of course they're only difficult if you take on them honorably; using Aya or Tactician+3 Monks will still trivialize most of them.
There is no honor in being pulverized by generic mobs lol.
Well yeah- but once I cared enough to look I realized a lot of equipment I would have been interested in -anyway- also has accuracy bonuses on it. I can't say what Plus Disk equips would do it, but page 6 has the Compact Arm and Cobra Sniper Rifle with mag/hp/mnd bonuses in addition to lots of acc. (From what I saw of plus equipment it blows all the earlier stuff out of the water pretty fast, though)
Yes plus equips, even the worst ones, make normal game equips a joke. But for some reason, that "quartz charm" or was it? That +20 damage done and -20 damage recieved with some 100 resistance showed up on one of my (!!!!!) sign in the endless corridor. Either that item is actually good later in the game, or I had a really bad luck since one of those (!!!!!) sign could be a Tokugawa doubling gold, which I got one through such luck, or some 500+ stats item. :(
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Either that item is actually good later in the game
-20% damage taken is pretty good, paired with +20% damage up too >.> Now, admittedly, when you're looking at +500% equips I can see why it wouldn't be. It's at least great on hp sponges like Komachi/Satori/Mamizou?
For all the shit I've been giving Satori, if you gave her two quartz charms, a first aid kit (or something- there's a blood sword to drain hp on attacks, right?), and an equipment similar to Grand Title of Master Breaker (pumps affinities and all stats) then, well, might fix the durability issue. ALTHOUGH, I'd still probably rather give it to Mamizou, or try to run Komachi tank with it. I guess +20% damage done up might not be good versus 400% mag equips. >_> That'd make offense characters harder, so Komachi tank...
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Some plus disk equip equip that gives ACC exists, although they aren't easy to obtain (I only have two of them) and all but one of them are ATK based (and the one that isn't doesn't give any offensive boosts at all). On the other hand, Plus Disk makes it so that every character can get Accuracy Boost if they want, which effectively raises the baseline by +20 I believe.
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Oooh right, Accuracy Boost! That's even better.
...does ANYONE innately have accuracy boost? XD I don't think so!
edit:I'm actually getting curious about postgame offense Komachi. Avici gets a 160% ATK addition to it's formula (80% plus avici's x2 multiplier) which, combined with 400% MAG (even if her mag is fairly low, that's... not a trivial amount, esp. with a little base mag tweaking as all her attacks are now composite) actually makes it look like a very useful attack in randoms and lets Komachi target MND and get a strong alltarget, and Scythe That Chooses The Dead is still a solid physical skill with a good enough formula to make up for not having offensive passives.
Except she does, in that she's got a fairly strong counter passive, along with one that passively keeps her ATK buff rising. Good element coverage (Short Life Expectancy's good delay makes it work, Ferriage is a row atk so it can be boosted, and she can get NTR/WND as Monk with additional regen or a strong fir+cld by subbing Warrior), etc.
With a Blood Sword main equip she can significantly increase her regen, and use a Quartz Charm, to actually start looking like someone who can stay out for a decent while sometimes. Interesting. Granted, there's still probably better bulky attackers, but it sounds definitely good enough to use if you like Komachi and if you also use Shiki, then it's good for synergy. (Komachi doesn't need it much, but Shiki's a bulky attacker and can use the +10% on all stats better)
Mami can still compete as hp sponge offense because her awakening and always-hits-weakness makes her more powerful than Komachi and gives her a 20% damage reduction, but in exchange Komachi's got even more HP and innate regen. Komachi's higher regeneration versus Mamizou's damage.
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-20% damage taken is pretty good, paired with +20% damage up too >.> Now, admittedly, when you're looking at +500% equips I can see why it wouldn't be. It's at least great on hp sponges like Komachi/Satori/Mamizou?
For all the shit I've been giving Satori, if you gave her two quartz charms, a first aid kit (or something- there's a blood sword to drain hp on attacks, right?), and an equipment similar to Grand Title of Master Breaker (pumps affinities and all stats) then, well, might fix the durability issue. ALTHOUGH, I'd still probably rather give it to Mamizou, or try to run Komachi tank with it. I guess +20% damage done up might not be good versus 400% mag equips. >_> That'd make offense characters harder, so Komachi tank...
Well, that still doesn't fix her damage since she would still deal much less than most stayin attackers with that build, I think lol. 40% damage can't really beat 100k stats difference, especially when you put most points into HP to help her stay alive.
I think Mamizou has "cheaper" awakening than Komachi. 40% damage increase with 20% less damage after few turns and Majesty to slower the buff decay, with the ability to work against any boss. Komachi needs much more investments on gems for magic to really make difference on her now composite nukes, but it might work if you really put some waifu grade adjustments to her.
Some plus disk equip equip that gives ACC exists, although they aren't easy to obtain (I only have two of them) and all but one of them are ATK based (and the one that isn't doesn't give any offensive boosts at all). On the other hand, Plus Disk makes it so that every character can get Accuracy Boost if they want, which effectively raises the baseline by +20 I believe.
Wow thanks for reminding! I just put one for my Koishi, should solve the problem! :D
Anyone beat the lastest corridor boss. That purple thing I don't know what it's called. It's attack and magic seems to dwarf previous bosses since it tends to one shot my tanks. But the main problem is, once it hits a certain HP, it swaps all my front liner, and use some void element damage that hits my team for 200-300k damage on everyone. This kills anyone if it's not evaded. Anyone have some way to beat this?
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I think Mamizou has "cheaper" awakening than Komachi. 40% damage increase with 20% less damage after few turns and Majesty to slower the buff decay, with the ability to work against any boss. Komachi needs much more investments on gems for magic to really make difference on her now composite nukes, but it might work if you really put some waifu grade adjustments to her.
Mamizou's definitely stronger, but Komachi has the better regen and more HP to use it off. She doesn't need to care -that- much about her magic- it's gonna be low either way, but putting MAG boost and if it's not too much a bother to put some gems, in to boost up Avici, etc. Although, how good that is depends on how much survivability Komachi actually has with 18~22% regen in an attack build, I wouldn't know >.>
But yeah, you're right about Quartz Charms. One is probably good for the defense, but two solidifies them as probably trying to run tank Komachi >.> Even then, you might want one affinity-based equip and a super HP pump, or even just two of one of those categories... hrm. I guess Quartz Charms really do get a little underwhelming, actually. >_> Maybe eventually the equip bonuses are lower versus levelup/library bonus adding to stats? I'd have to test a bunch to see how the formula goes.
Speaking of hp sponges with regen, I wonder how well Minoriko works out postgame after throwing hp boosts and a first aid kit on her with that new 18% regen and self overhealing. 16% mag party buff each turn, infinite mp, and a 70% delay powerful buffheal isn't half bad. Potentially sub dragon god
due to all the turns she gets or just go Herbalist to use the infinite mp with placebo and herb of awakening. But it's hard to tell how well she'll survive when her base hp isn't the best? At least she's got high mnd unlike other sponges.
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According to @wiki, your characters do have hidden, different levels of resistance to VOI element. Apparently, Kaguya takes about 20-30% more damage, Nazrin/Eirin/Eiki takes 33% less (though the numbers show up as red), Komachi takes about 40% less, Parsee/Flandre/Koishi/Akyuu takes about 50% less, and Mari takes about 75% less.
This is dumb, everyone is suppose to have the same resistance to it. Do enemies have this as well? I would assume the shadow versions would have this as well.
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The Second Sun has 200 VOI resistance. I don't know if any plus disk enemies have weakness/resistance to it since I didn't use any characters with VOI attacks.
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I think Void attack is kinda bad in general, when you can just hit a weakness and do much more damage instead. Except when the enemy uses it lol.
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There's very few VOI attacks from enemies, namely I think NONE before plus. Looks like most characters have a resistance rather than a weakness, too, if either- so it's a good thing more than a bad thing.
The Void attacks specifically state in their descriptions that next to no enemies resist it, so I wouldn't worry too much about it- but some do exist like Second Sun (as absolutely irrelevant as it is, there). If there's a Second Sun V2, maribel won't be using her awakened Liberated Abilities on it :V There's only 2 void attacks as it is, though, and only Maribel's is one of her best moves (after awakening)
cut:Well, the thing is, in random fights (as both of your void attacks are all-targets) the point is mostly that you aren't getting resisted, either, so the damage is stable. With 3~5 different enemies onfield, resistance can be a thing, and even without that Koishi only has a MYS alltarget to pick unless you're subbing her or Mari as archmage, so if they resist MYS, sucks to be you. They're not really boss attacks... until Maribel awakens and suddenly it's a 328% MAG attack, worthy of casting even against a single target boss. Still edged out by subclass attacks hitting weakness, but it's usefully stable and you're often not hitting weakness anyway.
edit:It's also worth noting both void attacks are incredibly accurate. Maribel's has "Never Miss" and Koishi's has +100 acc. They're pretty much the epitome of stable random fight damage, especially once Maribel's becomes surprisingly strong for an alltarget.
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There's very few VOI attacks from enemies, namely I think NONE before plus. Looks like most characters have a resistance rather than a weakness, too, if either- so it's a good thing more than a bad thing.
The Void attacks specifically state in their descriptions that next to no enemies resist it, so I wouldn't worry too much about it- but some do exist like Second Sun (as absolutely irrelevant as it is, there). If there's a Second Sun V2, maribel won't be using her awakened Liberated Abilities on it :V There's only 2 void attacks as it is, though, and only Maribel's is one of her best moves (after awakening)
cut:Well, the thing is, in random fights (as both of your void attacks are all-targets) the point is mostly that you aren't getting resisted, either, so the damage is stable. With 3~5 different enemies onfield, resistance can be a thing, and even without that Koishi only has a MYS alltarget to pick unless you're subbing her or Mari as archmage, so if they resist MYS, sucks to be you. They're not really boss attacks... until Maribel awakens and suddenly it's a 328% MAG attack, worthy of casting even against a single target boss. Still edged out by subclass attacks hitting weakness, but it's usefully stable and you're often not hitting weakness anyway.
edit:It's also worth noting both void attacks are incredibly accurate. Maribel's has "Never Miss" and Koishi's has +100 acc. They're pretty much the epitome of stable random fight damage, especially once Maribel's becomes surprisingly strong for an alltarget.
On the enemy part, that's what I thought until the 100th floor corridor boss and
the kedama goddess.
. It randomly swap my frontline AND use some void move that deals 300k + damage in one move. Even Koishi who's suppose to be resistance to it took 220k damage. There's no defense against this unless it misses and I don't even know if the move is physical or magical.
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So, I tried doing a new game + run using the all characters (plus disk included) save here on this forum, and I deleted my old save. Fml. But, I am using this opportunity to use new characters I didn't use. Before, like Byakuren, Sakuya, Mari and Renko. And some of my favorites of the new cast, Shou (obviously), Kokoro and Koishi, Futo and Miko. And I am going to do a synergy run, which means everyone but my tank, Tenshi and Yuyuko have synergies. But mabye Yuyu and Iku could swap out sometimes.
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So, I tried doing a new game + run using the all characters (plus disk included) save here on this forum, and I deleted my old save. Fml. But, I am using this opportunity to use new characters I didn't use. Before, like Byakuren, Sakuya, Mari and Renko. And some of my favorites of the new cast, Shou (obviously), Kokoro and Koishi, Futo and Miko. And I am going to do a synergy run, which means everyone but my tank, Tenshi and Yuyuko have synergies. But mabye Yuyu and Iku could swap out sometimes.
3 of your characters have synergy with Byakuren though lol, with Shou the most important one. It's going to be a bit hard to use her since those synergy are more or less what makes Shou good, free regen every turn with along with buffs from Byakuren's passive. But at least you can put Rinnosuke as a tank for damage boost easily.
Now that you use Koishi, give earth spirit party a spin! :] They start out slowly but later they're as good as any top-tier damage dealer.
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What would be a good subclass for Koishi? Monk is probably the best for main game (usual benefits plus +12 EVA) but come postgame there are a lot more choices (and Monk's speed up aspects don't synergize with Super Responsive Senses that well). Ninja (mainly for the +20 EVA, though 1/8 defense ignore can be cool too) and Archmage (long delay spells to capitalize on Super Responsive Senses) are probably good choices, and there are likely other good candidates too...
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Hey Regalstar, how did you manage to play a new game+ with plus characters on it? I wanna give it a shot too! :D
As for Koishi (best touhou) I personally use archmage for higher base magic and 2 more elements to work with. But after using her with almost waifu grade enhancements she's definitely a gimmick character. Decent stats with average spells to work with along with passives that wants you to evade things. Maybe she's kinda safe since high evasion and all but IMO she definitely lacks that power to level down bosses. Her passives are all defensive so that's not surpricing but I've seen many more stay in attackers who packs much more punch and much more survivable, one with same elements *cough* Okuu *cough*. So yeah right now her job is just being there to empower her pets. :(
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This is probably already asked and answered already and pardon me in advance, but how's the translation coming along for +?
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Maybe she's kinda safe since high evasion and all but IMO she definitely lacks that power to level down bosses. Her passives are all defensive so that's not surpricing but I've seen many more stay in attackers who packs much more punch and much more survivable, one with same elements *cough* Okuu *cough*. So yeah right now her job is just being there to empower her pets. :(
Yeahh, whilst Koishi gets evasion boosts, now that I think about it, she doesn't have any direct damage increasing passives, nor particularly high MAG or an especially exciting attack. That probably makes her a little unexciting unless you can really capitilize on her extra turns from evasion (so, luck based) or run earth spirits party for big stat boosts (which honestly, they all sort of need) Hrm. A little unfortunate. Her awakening at least lets her get -double- turns after evasion two thirds of the time, which is a pretty big damage up against any boss you can evade enough. (Time for a bunch of EVA equipment and evasion second boost?)
I guess this shouldn't be super surprising. Almost every passive she has either benefits on a successful evasion, or increases her EVA until she does evade. She has the very elusive ability to obtain a direct evasion buff, meaning even non-major eva increases can add up. It just adds up that her priority is increasing base EVA to try to capitalize on her skillset (whilst keeping other stats high enough to do good damage and not die too easily... greedy koishi)
As for subclasses, ArchMage is probably the best bet, yeah. It gives her quite the elemental variety and attempting to use stronger long-delay spells synergizes well, with a good MAG increase. Murakamo can give her an explosive spell in Heavenly Demise if SPI works for what you've got in mind, as usual, but it's a one-person and one-element class, etc- it's basically ArchMage with a different attack spell (much stronger instead of 2 elements) and some goofy passives, though, which is good. Ninja isn't entirely a bad idea, if you don't need extra skills in her moveset at the time... more EVA is more offense to add ontop of it's other minor boosts... I called it a garbage class, but Koishi is an unusual character and might get use out of it.
I wonder how the game treats heavy evasion on player characters? Koishi, Alice, Chen, and Aya can totally get 200+. Alice/Aya/Chen can get ~140 before equipment, even, after second boost (20 eva per boost tier, tright?) and Koishi only reaches ~90 but after equipment and her passives she beats them out. And anyone with maintenance can do the same, although they probably shouldn't in most situations.
Also RIP LazerPagoda's save. When I started a second run, I made sure to make multiple save files of my first run so I couldn't accidentally overwrite it. >.>
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Hey guys, am I missing something? I trying to play with the plus disk characters from the beginning but going new game+ does not give me those characters. How to play with those?
Help!
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Hey guys, am I missing something? I trying to play with the plus disk characters from the beginning but going new game+ does not give me those characters. How to play with those?
Help!
It hasn't been set up to do that yet, I think...
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It hasn't been set up to do that yet, I think...
There's a couple of posts that says they're doing a plus disk chars run. Maybe they're using something? I dunno lol But yeah.
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There's a post somewhere earlier in the thread that hacked a NG+ save with the plus disk characters
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There's a post somewhere earlier in the thread that hacked a NG+ save with the plus disk characters
Ah I've found it! Thanks a bunch! It's on page 9 by Validon98
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Alice/Aya/Chen can get ~140 before equipment, even, after second boost (20 eva per boost tier, tright?)
Unfortunately, only HP, TP, MP and the core stats have second/mega boosts. Accuracy, Evasion, Elemental Resistance and Ailment Resistance only have base level boosts (and high boosts for Rinnosuke).
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RIP
Oh well, that's only ~20 eva points, not a big loss. (And eventually the third boost, but... the costs are real) I don't have to worry about giving everyone double element boost at least XD Also helps Rinno keep his edge there even in mega endgame.
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Yeah, so far the game is doing great, Shou and Futo are plowing trough the 1st floor enemies, and the Malignut Eater was Instant Deathed by Yuyu. I was mainly going for the Myoren family team (minus Naz), Moriya Family (minus Suwa) and Taoist, Celestial (Yuyuko is probably gonna be replaced by Iku when she is relevant), and Sealing Club teams. Mabye I will use Team Komieji and co, but there are alot of people I don't wanna kick out. The reason Suwa and Naz arnt being used is because Mag build Suwako carried my old team through the fire and dark stratum, as well as a bit of the 19 and 20th floor. Naz is rendered pointless by Shou's all target.
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Nazrin's actually not half bad. A lot of the hard bosses in maingame are weak to her slayer skill, and while her moves are plain, two of her damage formulas actually are really nice. She's still a little average until you can grab her corridor skills, though, and those are irrelevant in NG+ runs. At least Sorc can give her an AoE (along with a fourth good attack element).
...as for being rendered pointless by Shou's alltarget, Naz's skills give -way- bigger bonuses and are much stronger, with a much better passive. +25% rate or +100%? Shou's bulkier, but slower. For a NG+ Shou's probably overall better for the bulk, though, as Nazrin can't reach her corridor awakening for skills that give her above-average damage capability.
...actually, errr, Shou's 1 mp recovery is probably pretty painful until she can hog your mp recovery main equip...
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Seems like i will have to wait until 2018-2019 for the translated menus,i cant efficiently play without knowing floor numbers,items,new skills,descriptions etc etc
i guess i will replay LoT1 on the meanwhile :V
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Seems like i will have to wait until 2018-2019 for the translated menus,i cant efficiently play without knowing floor numbers,items,new skills,descriptions etc etc
i guess i will replay LoT1 on the meanwhile :V
Translation will probably start in earnest after, at the very minimum, the entire plus disk content is actually released. We're still missing quite a bit of content right now.
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Translation will probably start in earnest after, at the very minimum, the entire plus disk content is actually released. We're still missing quite a bit of content right now.
i watched all of your +disk videos and didnt saw the serpent of chaos battle sprite that is on the files, yet at the same time i couldnt find the hollow yamata no orochi sprite, thats weird
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Serpent of Chaos is the 100F boss in endless corridor.
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Fun thing about elementalist: At level 5, all of their elemental buffs have 8000 postuse (it's 5500+500*SLv), and they cost only 3 MP. This can be interesting for a lot of characters with "when the user receives a turn" skills.
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That does make the class look less terrible, for sure, if nothing else. When you've got so many powerful subs to put on your support characters, whether for more options or synergy gaming or great passives or just to make them bulkier... "+10% damage" buffs seemed kinda underwhelming. If it's even faster than ninja's Fast Movement though, yeah, it could be possibly useful for characters who want turns.
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Yeah, Shou doesn't give the same drop bonuses, but that was only half the reason. All of her elements are covered one or more times by the rest of the party, so she'd jus be the underused mage. Kokoro I super good, as she is just plowing through most enemies in one blow, and her multi element attack should be really good because most hard bosses are weak to those elements. Iku, Yukari, That Mirror thing, Sakuya are all difficult bosses, but Sakuya was easy with a buffed up Kanako 3 shotting her with VoWG and finising off Remi with one of her deceptively strong spirit nukes.
One of the few problems I am having is that most of my party has REALLY expensive spells, so there is alot of part management during exploration. Shou's 1 mo recover isnt all that bad considering she isn't going to be my main sweeper. My main Kill All Things Now button is actually Kokoro and Koishi, with their high overall damage to the floor enemies. Koishi hits a few weaknesses, Kokoro us just brute attack power.
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It turns out that despite being unreleased (and having no animation), Dragon God and WINNER's spells are all functional. So here are the data I gleaned off them:
Dragon God: HP+12, MP+8, TP+8, All elements+64 (wtf), All status+20
Four Elements Protection: FIR/CLD/WND/NTR affinity+3 per level (max level 20)
Dragon Breath: 12MP, All Enemies, FIR+CLD+WND+NTR composite, 250(ATK+MAG)-40(DEF+MND), 2400 postuse
WINNER: All stats+6 (not including TP or MP), All elements+24, All ailments+8
Autoroller: All stats+1 per level (max level 10; same for the two below)
Elemental Immunity: All Elements+4 per level
Magic Armor: All Ailments+2 per level
Vorpal Blade: 7MP, Enemy Row, WND direct, ~237-77, 4500 postuse
Magical Tempest: 12MP, All Enemies, VOI magic (though it's actually MYS right now), 280-100, 600 postuse
Sword of Light: 8MP, One Enemy, SPI composite magic, ~195(ATK+MAG)-33(MND), 5750 postuse
Wand of Destruction: 16MP, All Enemies, DRK compoiste direct, ~192(ATK+MAG)-120(DEF), inflicts every status except debuffs (fairly reliably too from what I observed), 2400 postuse
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About as expected (except dragon god gives CRAZY element affinity bonuses- plus 124 on the 4 natural ones?!), and Dragon Breath is indeed a move worthy of it's placement. It's strong enough to even sort of consider it for an attacker, but it's such a good class for a big tanker, too...
And Winner gives you a fabulous set of attacks as expected. Best for someone with both offense stats, but really, anyone can use it (Remilia...), and it's good elemental variety in types you can't get from other subs well, mostly.
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I'm actually not really impressed with Vorpal Blade and Magical Tempest. They're decent at all but not really worth their MP price tags. The composite spells look a lot better though, so I'd think WINNER is more suitable for characters like Yuuka with high stats on both offenses.
Dragon's Breath is really powerful yeah (four elements means that it will hit weakness pretty much all the time, and will not get resisted by almost anything), but 2400 postuse kind of clashes with its passives. I guess it's like Ame-no-Murakumo where it's meant to be usable in different ways, instead of being a self-coherent skillset.
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So some composite spells actually takes both def and mnd into account? Or is the dragon breath the only composite that includes both defenses in Lot2? Since I've never seen anyone's spell include both defenses on the characters' pages.
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It's the only one. Out of spells you can cast yourself, at least.
Edit:Hmm, JP wiki suggests running Kokoro as an HP tank subbed Healer. This allows you to use her "healing skills buff from emotion" (and is probably a dev intended build considering this is nearly the only way to use that...), and you get not 10, but 14% HP regen for only 85% delay when concentrating- and 4% healing on the party which, whilst low, is a nice on-the-side with that kind of delay. It cycles emotions heavily but tbh a tank kokoro doesn't care too much, the up/down isn't -that- large on others and if she's not attacking she doesn't need to stick to one all that much. She can still benefit from getting up Fighting Spirit for 30% damage reduction so she can actually compete as an HP tank, for support she's still got "debuff with emotion" along with healer skills, and the emotion buffs are for... well, RegalStar said it's 16% (or 20% speed) which kind of makes this build depressing, sigh.
Sadly, she doesn't bring a whole lot to the table other than good survivability in such a build- and it requires awakening her anyway to -get- that- hp regen. If the emotion healing buffs were worth a damn, maybe it'd have been nice; or if the emotion stat increases were better than like 8~10%. As an attacker, she doesn't really compete with the juggernauts or anything, but she's at least got enough good stuff to be certainly good enough to use if you like her? :T Kind of a let down for a character with cool gimmick stuff. Oh well. Like, at least Koishi can get strong if you exploit earth spirits synergy, and Shou similarly via her own synergies and rage counter? Kokoro doesn't really seem to have a "thing".
Then again, if she works better in practice than Komachi (more turns for regen, and fighting spirit, instead of higher max hp), well, all the fans of Komachi tank have a second option, so I guess that's something; Komachi tank brings little to the table other than surviving either, not that I've used that build. Avici is pretty alright and tank-Komachi can still DTH in randoms, so it's definitely not like she doesn't do anything, but.
Well, fourth option, because Awakened Minoriko is a thing (although I'm not sure she could main tank other than mag bosses, but she's got great support and beastly hp/mp flow instead) and Mokou has regen+fighting spirit and Resurrection for hp tanking. Since she didn't even have a damage reduction from Fighting Spirit back when I used her, she'd sure do a lot better now >_>
edit:Wow, I only just realized Mokou's regen is 20% instead of 10% like everyone else (barring awakening minoriko) gets. Now that fighting spirit works, hmm. Actually, if you run Keine tank for her new passive and awesome awakening swap power, Mokou+Keine frontline sounds really nice for the def/mnd bonus. (Or for running a hybrid keine with offense, since she can get high MAG now, but it's definitely a gimmick build. New powerful subclasses could make it an effective gimmick build, though)
edit again:I just realized Mokou gets Sheer Force in awakening. Sheer Force... on an actual great tank character. Pierce power on Iwakasa Curse debuffs! This is starting to sound nice. Maybe sub toxicologist if you don't want to use her great mp regen on pharmacologist or healer. That's actually a pretty nice sounding idea as toxicologist skills are accurate, combined with Sheer Force... ooh, and any remotely shk-vulnerable boss would really go down to Guardian's Shield Bash, which has a very high SHK rate, actually really good once you have someone who's better than Kogasa or Utsuho for casting it with as support. Mokou's starting to sound like resurrection isn't the only gimmick she's got.
Taking advantage of bosses that aren't too heavily resistant to SHK and PAR... *Drools* Or, you know, just a real high accuracy psn/heavy effect...
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Yeah Kokoro is a weird thing. Sshe's pretty much just a gimmicky character with OK level attacks (her stats are high but she lacks any sort of straight forward boosting passives) and the ability to affect damage globally... a little anyways. They're not really that unintuitive, but 10% don't really make that much of a difference, and her magic spell kind of sucks badly when she wants to be in sadness mode. She could actually pull of Dragon God decently I think (she gets 8500 postuse for triggering circles, and dragon breath can benefit more from her masks), but... eh.
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Huh, Dragon God is a good point. The downside though is she'd have almost nothing useful to do in terms of actual skills, but... she'd mostly be concentrating anyway to dole out buffs and regen, I guess, so that'd do it. A little easier to use than Tokiko and probably more survivable with 14% regen, some fighting spirit up, and a full HP build (to go with those sick affinity boosts from dragon god!), but less options.
With her turn coming up so much and generally being free (she'd only be concentrating...) she'd be an effective swapper in that build, at least, in terms of doing... anything else with her time. If the survival ability is high enough it could be a pretty nice build, actually.
The big question is about whether her survival ability is better enough than other options who can actually do things with their turns other than -just- have an increased dragon god turn rate. (Tokiko and Minoriko are quite fast and boast other support options, you can always just throw it on Byakuren, etc)
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Cheerfulness mask will lower damage across the board, but with plus it will generally lower the enemies defense more than the party since they have much lower defense (and Kokoro/Miko can reduce the damage penalty to the party anyways), so there's that.
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That's true, but useful applications of tank Kokoro also seem like they'll be concentrating so much it'll be hard to make a meaningful use of emotion swap. If only she had an "Emotion Lock" skill? 10% stat change isn't too large, though, in any case... so it's not a huge deal. Oh Kokoro... :T
In other news, I threw up a page and awkward description for Miko on the wiki's 7th character page. After a month and a half I guess it was about time to do another character :V It's somewhat strange to describe characters I haven't -used-... but at least I'm so hopelessly addicted to theorycrafting for this game that I can be confident I'm not COMPLETELY off the mark, or anything.
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During my plus characters excluding Koishi, Akyuu, and Shou, Miko has been a liability with her massive skill costs and average stats along with squishyness that maintainaince can't really cope with since early game equips are so weak and I'm not at floor 20 grinding spot yet, so no money for those library levels. So yeah, it's a bit hard to comment on her performance now.
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Plus characters' main game performance generally are subpar anyways since they all require a lot of skill points for their skills. Even then I found that Miko is actually quite good, pretty much just a magic nitori except goose cannon isn't as ridiculous as super scope (but then it's a lot better in randoms since it's AoE). Divinely Appointed Stateswoman is kind of finicky though; you're basically never going to get Evil realistically unless you just got World Devouring Calamity'd, and you have to keep your party in tip top shape to get Good, though if you do her first spell serves as a decent all-debuff option (it seems to be pretty accurate too; at least it sticks more often than Futatsuiwa Clan's Curse). She probably would be a lot better once I can actually get a whiff at Sage of Toyosatomimi (lol 40 SKP). She's pretty much completely limited to SPI though, so you'll need subclasses if you're fighting something that resists it (Taur Magician, Murakumo, etc.)
Oh and she's great in random too. Asuka Heritage Attack and Divinely Appointed Stateswoman - Good are automatically in effect as long as you aren't outsped (I'm using Tactician+Monks for first strike), so you get 24% more MAG and enemies get 40% less MND. Goose Cannon does cost a stupid amount of MP though.
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I was looking at Ame-No-Murakamo's special subclass; there's an important difference from the original data leak and the released version.
It's drain passives still drain the same amount... but you get twice as much benefit. For draining a small 5% hp from the other frontliners, you gain a massive 30% hp regen. This is no laughing matter >.> Getting 6mp by draining 1 from other members is slightly more problematic, but because swapping is a thing, it's not half bad either. Or go as alt-gambler and it's even easier to maintain max buffs, but that's probably only good on a couple characters.
...hmm, actually, I think the HP drain actually heals by the -amount- drained (times 2), so you can't use it to make HP walls immortal. It still sounds wildly effective for a more conventional tank, though. Throw it on Reimu, who already possesses a healing skill to offset potential damage and gets heavily tanky after awakening, and... oh jeez. Or just make your attacker of choice regenerate quite a bunch of HP, as it's still quite useful on offensive characters. (If you have an HP wall out, then... however, it does say 30% max hp is the limit of healing.)
certain attackers could regen up to like 48~58% hp each turn considering blood sword rofl. This also makes Sanae tank look again like a half-decent option in a moriya party, because she really would have nigh-infinite mp to spam support and emulate Byakuren and plenty of HP regen to keep her going- she could even regularly use World-shaking Military Rule (that skill name...) albiet it's 16% buff isn't the most thrilling thing ever, but it keeps things topped off.
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That's not a difference, that's me being unknowledgeable in Japanese :blush: But yeah the HP and MP drain heals by twice their amount; I just didn't realize the wording meant that.
Also I just did a quick test, and the skill heals the user by twice the number of HP drained, not 10% per character drained. Test subject Maribel with some points thrown in HP drained 9k off Komachi with 170k HP total to heal herself for around 18k, when her own maxHP is 65k.
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It happens!
And yeah, uh, that's... that's one hell of a passive. 5% max hp off frontliners when drain is needed, is an affordable loss. I said Sanae (or *coughs* edited it in after your reply...) but... oooh... the vitality that could rush through HP wall awakened-Minoriko's veins as a speedy ultra-regenerative buffhealer tank. Or the potential large burst in bulk on your favorite bulky hitters. Suddenly it really does sound like a glorious subclass, for... almost anyone.
edit:Okay, maybe it's overkill on Minoriko esp. as an hp wall who can't use the drain as well, although actually she's got the stupid mp flow to afford some Military Rule (lol minoriko plz) which'd let her cover spd/atk buffs a little. She's probably best suited for a party mostly featuring MAG users though (and probably a couple atk users who can either maintain their own buffs or, you know, minoriko isn't the -only- buff character you'd probably have; mnd-piercing characters are almost as good as actual atk ones tho.)
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If we get the skill "Three swords of Divine Era" and use something with heavy manacost like Start of heavenly demise, would it be a bit too much Mp draining for other frontliners? Since it seems to me like that lol. The damage would be high, but i doubt it can be sustained. I don't think even the magicians can pull through such heavy use of Mp.
That skill seems best used with someone that has moderate attack power spell with reasonable Mp cost to delay ratio.
Edit: Oh and my plus run mostly rely on Mamizou and Kokoro to plow through many things, with Hina and Reisen for some high def bosses like Tenshi.
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The skill that makes all other frontliners use up their MP when you attack is a somewhat imited-use skill. Especially because the subclass has options for letting a star character stay out in front a -lot-... which would mean regularly pumping through your front row's mp. IMO it's more suited if you're giving the subclass to someone you plan to use like a gambler instead (so it's only an occasional, high-reward heavy nuke); but it feels like you should probably just actually give them gambler, so that the Murakumo class can go to someone else.
It's IS a workable option for anyone whose main attack doesn't have too bad of an mp cost, but unless your tanks are like, awakened Sanae/Byakuren/Minoriko, it's gonna really inconvenience you to be blowing through their mp TWICE as fast. If it's a damage race fight and you just -really- need that damage, maybe.
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Actually some plus boss fight was a damage race for me lol. Notable, or rather only two I can think of right now would be Futo and the corridor
Momiji
. Both bosses are fast, especially Futo, and their attacks would cut you down one by one and it's impossible to sustain through their constant damage. But the worse of the two was Momiji
since her Rabies bite
is so ridiculous it oneshot ANY tank I tried to set up, and I wasn't underleveded at all, considering the 300 or more physical resist and the 500k damage to my byakuren, who has like 150k Hp at that time. My last resort was using mokou with stacked evasion and pray that she doesn't go down before I beat her. Once mokou is down I bring out alice and pray that she dodges one or two attacks before the boss starts to eat my backlines.
So yeah there are bosses that I think could be a damage race.
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(http://puu.sh/tLOmt/1168388ea6.png)
Well someone seemed to have goofed badly here. With level 4 Super Incantation Akyuu is supposed to do (1.5+0.6*4)=3.9x damage, which means she's supposed to get 290% boost, but she got a 390% boost instead, so basically it lets her do 100% (of base) more damage than it's supposed to :V
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If Akyuu actually maxes at 550% damage then... :V That's 2.75x per turn, instead of the previous 2.25x (which some characters like Kanako could actually sorta compete with -and- be bulky), which makes silly builds like Ame-No-Akyuu casting Start of Heavenly Demise look a little less dumb to use. Hah.
...it's still pretty questionable to do, though. Good for blasting through a panic phase by stocking up the charge ahead of time, but apart from that? It's kind of funny that a character with 550% damage is dubious even when trying to use it, but all her stats are terrible, so. The best argument I can imagine other than panic phase bursting is "I want her support spells, but plan to use them non-majorly enough that I'd like damage out of her too", which considering her resurrection, isn't that unreasonable of an argument. It's also a great argument for offensive Reimu (legitimately useful idea after awakening) and Sanae, and part of why Rumia is cool.
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Dat feel, when everyone plays LoT2+ already, and u ar waiting for english patch (and new updates?) ;_;
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I'm waiting on both the updates and for like, a gathering of all of the stuff that has been translated in a more organized manner. None of the awakened skills are on the wiki, for example, only half the Plus Disk characters are on there, and none of the new skills that the old characters got were added either (which, by the by, I noticed a lot of people who got new skills were those that didn't have six skills already, only those that had five, meaning outside of the stat boosts and XP boosting skills, no one has more than six passive skills at the most). I wanted to try to do something myself to gather everything in one place, but there's a lot to trawl through. What I did do though was start on a basic spreadsheet that'd have information on at least everyone's skills (since that's really the big thing that is important to have translated and collected in one place) and subclass stuff. It's not really filled out that much because I don't exactly feel like going through this thread to find everything, but I'll link it for anyone who wants to gather information for it. It's just mostly for having something to reference before an English patch comes out.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tJY6i41C5BdLY5ZBqk-c_SqSXEye5Eg1vcFEDVYrVoU/edit?usp=sharing
EDIT: Checking real quick, seems like the JP wiki is coming along on stuff, seems like there's information for all the characters at the least, including a list of changes from v1.203 going into Plus Disk 1.103. Least there's that.
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Once I'm back to my time off work I might add another character or two onto the wiki within the next few days, it's a little tedious but I'd really like to have them on there
I've been too lazy to figure out how to do a [hide] thing so that the awakened sections could be added, although I guess anyone who's looking at the wiki prooobably doesn't care about that sort of spoiler that much anyway? but it feels like it should be that way
I know where all the info and such is in the thread(s), but I haven't gathered it together; maybe tomorrow, right now I'm on my break at work :V
Adding all the new non-corridor passives to the wiki is a very good point and not that hard to do either tbh, should get to that too
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Why don't you make a separate page for awakening skills, Serela? A quick introduction about what they are, and a list for each character. This way you can keep people relatively unspoiled.
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I think we can do it like JP wiki did; add an entirely new section below what we have containing all the awakened spells, skills and comments.
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Yeah, keeping the skills next to the actual character's data like RegalStar said makes it easier, otherwise you'd have to swap between two different pages for everyone. I just don't know how to do a Hide thing? It's not super critical to do a hide thing though I guess, since you're already looking up all the wiki info you probably want to see it? It'd be nice tho
I still have 4 more characters to add onto the wiki before I even think about that, in any case. Probably will do at least one in the next few days once I'm off work. Probably going to add the new non-corridor passives and a "buffed in plus" clause below damage formulas of relevant skills before I think about awakenings as well; we already have every awakening skill in one convenient list on the last time RegalStar posted it, so it's not a big priority for me. (Having it on the wiki will be nice to also have reviews on them though)
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I've updated Characters 1 to include plus disk related changes, awakened skills, and some comments on them. Unfortunately, I don't know how to hide multiple tables under one heading, which makes Rinnosuke's section look really stiff since him getting a spell necessitates another table. If someone wants to try and fix it, feel free.
The problem now is characters whose spells and base stats have been adjusted in Plus Disk. Should we change them? If we do, should we note the old data (until Plus Disk has a menu translation at least)? Where do we leave the old data then?
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Oooh, looks perfect! Rinnosuke's thing is a little clunky but only a few characters have a new skill, and it's hidden the rest of the time anyway, so I think it's fine.
JP wiki also suggests subbing enhancer on Rinno to make Precise Information notably more powerful, and add some healing to Battle Command. (I'll probably go through and add little notes like this myself later, though)
Whenever postgame subclasses are added, they'll need a new column for skp cost on leveling. JP wiki doesn't mention it so I assume the awakening skills have normal 5 cost, though.
Hmm, and where to note the characters with higher than normal max attack levels... maybe just add another column in for them too. I'll think about it later
edit:Oh, the new spells... the damage formula line isn't one with crowding issues, so just linebreaking and putting the new dmg formula (or the guess...) for it beneath it with some kind of tag is probably good. Base stats is slightly more awkward, although at least only 2 or 3 characters were tweaked (Flan, Iku... anyone else?). That category isn't crowded in the least either though, so it might be fine to, again, list them both.
Let's see, that's...
Hell's Tokamak, Giga Flare (mp/delay also adjusted iirc)
Supernatural Phenomenon, Knockout in Three Steps
Cat's Walk (Delay adjusted too),
and all three of Flandre's attacks.
And Byakuren's duplication scroll? And Aya's go-first spell had an mp cost increase. Also, Tenshi's NTR attacks both got debuffs added in. edit:And I think Cirno's Diamond Blizzard got more PAR???
edit again:Minor review edits to the first character page~
edit MOAR:Going through the new Awakened Skill reviews; so, with Komachi's composite skills, one thing I wondered is where in the formula the ATK/MAG influences are being put in. Assuming they're just turning the attacks into "normal" composite skills, the new ATK/MAG increases are also boosted by the multiplier; this gives Avici actually, like, 160% Atk and turns it into a really good skill (since even with her low MAG, 400% is enough to boost it into a fine power all-target with a plethora of effects)
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I can help gather what was translated and put it in the wiki, if that doesn't require any coding knowledge. Also I requested the Username but got no reply so far. Anything can I do?
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Nah no coding, you just take the table from a character who has it, copy-paste, and rewrite the text. If they have a skill you can copy-paste off Rinnosuke from the first page. I think there's nothing to do about the account but wait until it's approved, but that shouldn't take too long in my experience?
Any help is super appreciated <3 It's great that progress is getting made on the wiki~
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JPWiki's Patchouli page seems to think that 5*12% is 80% :V
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Yeahhhhh I noticed that :VV I was really confused.
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I think your description for Marisa's awakened skills are a bit off since I think the 2 hakkero modes doesn't work with each other. You should go check.
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Oh, that part isn't mentioned, you're right. I went in and fixed that just now.
...I'ma test Yuugi's powered up formulas. She's looking kind of tempting to put in my party. >_>
edit:this took awhile because my computer crashed and then I had to leave >.> I was gonna do cat's walk but I don't have the time now.
Giga Flare: 5400~6200 (2348 mag) (250% mag? used to be 150%)
Tokamak: 4399~4852 (2348 mag) (200% mag? used to be 180%)
Knockout: 8059~9206 (2618 atk) (330% atk? used to be 260%)
Phenomenon: 4618~5498 (2618 atk) (195% atk? used to be 192... wait. >_> probably a little more but rng numbers is a thing?)
WAIT CRUD
I'M RUNNING 1.102 STILL. So, Yuugi's attacks both have another buff from 1.103. Nevermind. I don't have time to retest right now, though. After considering the 30% buff on physicals though (and all her other dmg boost passives and high atk...) knockout is really a strong move, though.
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Cat's Walk - 132-58 (worth noting that despite the guy who put it as 140-50 on the wiki, its old formula was 100-50)
Supernatural Phenomenon - 249-75
Knockout in Three Steps - 375-38 (Although it's unstated, its delay is also increased to 0)
Hell's Tokamak - 211-120
Giga Flare - 240-8
From my own testing.
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That brings Knockout up to 500% with Yuugi's boost, ignores half DEF, and Yuugi has a lot of really great passives and a helpful awakening... with a solid other move in Phenomenon being well buffed, and she's pretty durable. And Last Fortress + is a -really- huge boost well into a dangerous boss fight. That's... pretty great sounding.
Utsuho can also actually compete with the likes of Kaguya now. She's only got MYS, though, wheras Kaguya can eventually even sub Archmage for many more elements of piercing defense, as can Rumia sort of. In exchange she's got actual durability (and, well, she can blaze away when she doesn't need flares). It may sound disappointing that Giga Flare doesn't sync well with fighting spirit or overheat or whatnot, but Kaguya doesn't get -any- damage boosters, really, and nor does Shikieiki, so... in the realm of defense piercing, it's great now that it's damage is nearly doubled. Tokamak is also now notably more appealing (damage formula is good after blazing), and it's heavy MND factor is lessened by it's nearly unstoppable MND debuff with Sheer Force. Utsuho's been saved!
edit:Added new move info for orin/utsuho/yuugi onto the wiki in parenthesis, underneath the original data. Looks pretty good I think! That leaves, Tenshi, Flan, and Byakuren's move tweaks in the later pages still.
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Yeah I definitely have very good things to speak about Okuu's performance, even something that has a bit of resistance to fire she can still do the heavy lifting with sheer force and huge fire damage up from awakened passive. Worth every single gems spent and the awakening stone on her.
So yeah, any foes not having huge resistance to mystic and fire are easy targets. But the most ideal condition would be a boss that is weak to fire, a few turns with Tokamak and the self damage reving up along with the mnd debuff it really has the damage number of 2 suns grinding the boss.
But for Yuugi, I think she's a bit slow? Since knockout has massive delay and Yuugi is kinda slow for most part so I think she would do more dps as a hit and run character if you're using the knockout, with someone like awakened Keine to switch.
And I got my account. What's left to be edited into the wiki?
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Subclasses and the last 4 characters on page 7. Character data is mostly around pages 6 and 7 of this thread (or reference the jp wiki for some.), Anything you don't see you can just leave for me to add/fix afterwards, a little cleanup duty is easy peasy. I'll probably add a character on there today too so if you're planning on doing one, just gimme a heads up and I'll do a different character :V
subclass data: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1233871.html#msg1233871 (damage formula estimates around page 6~7 of this thread as well, but you can also ignore that and let me do 'em if you want to be lazy)
plus disk character passive/skill descriptions: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19029.msg1233056.html#msg1233056
Yuugi's Knockout is slow but it also carries the power of a freight truck now- 500% atk after phys boost and she's got a lot of atk/damage up passives and very high base atk. Phenomenon is still a very powerful skill for low-delay spamming, as well as explosive flame sword and whatever else you get from subbing. Since she has a physical damage bonus, monk's all-target normals might be nice in randoms... (or Warrior's empowered normals will just do the damage of a spellcard for cheap, instead of her physical element costing all her mp :V)
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Hmm, I want to add the table in the JP wiki that says how much of the passive boost you get from assigning a subclass. How do you do that? Is it fine if I add the table without the "lines" since that's what I managed to do lol.
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It's a pretty useful table, go for it. Without the lines... well, as long as it's still legible? XD
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Ok, I added swordmaster and archmage along with said table for main game subclasses. Some informations like the delays and damage are not known for now so maybe once we have more infos they can be added later.
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I have decided to aid in the wiki effort as well.
I have noted that Patchouli's "half MP" skill actually has an incredible synergy with her "2 MP regen when in the rightmost slot" skill, as it basically allows her spells to cost net total of 1 MP. I do believe that that is particularly noteworthy, since if you add the Magician subclass and it's 1 MP regen skill, her spells are essentially have no MP cost at all, meaning that she could do a hit and run, can always be ready to help clear out floor trash without MP cost issues and even do something after a World Devouring Calamity. I have written this into her awakened skills section.
I also have a question: does her half MP skill affect subclass spells? Because if they do, then Magic Transfer could also be cast for effectively no MP(max level reduces cost to 6, which would be halved to 3, which would be payed for by the MP regen), making her one of the better users of that subclass.
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Yeah, it gives Patchouli nearly infinite mp, and that IS noteworthy. The issue is with how to actually use it... she's glacially slow, and even using boosts, gems, and subclass will make it difficult to get her to move before enemies have a lot of chance to murder her; she's more worried about running out of TP than MP, even before you obtain that skill. Unless you use Monk and Strategist to make her go first regularly and keep her from dying too much in randoms... (That IS a decent strategy, though)
I think it does effect subclass spells, which is good, but she's nowhere near a good candidate for support casting due to fragility and rock bottom spd; leave that to Minoriko or others. Rather, it makes subclass magic attacks no longer have awful price tags.
Hrm, if you seriously go all-out on Patchouli's speed using postgame base stat boost potential, and then use some of her levelup bonuses in it as well, maybe she could be a star random fight clearer. Awful TP but that's far easier to fix than her speed. Might be something to consider for SDM parties (which are worth considering now that Remilia has a useful awakening to fix her up, and Sakuya's received direly needed ATK boosts)
(...or, you could just use someone else. Honestly Patchy feels like the SDM weak link. She's great at randoms and has good element variety but she's got no damage bonuses to capitalize on her magic with, slow, dies instantly to any physical, etc.)
edit:And Kokoro's added to the wiki!
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hi everyone, now i am stuck at three rock at 22f and the rock at b7f, can yoy tell me what to do
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If you're going to boost Patchy's speed all the way up to match the mobs for randoms, we have Aya for that lol. Unless you wanna give Patchy waifu tier power up then yeah.
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I finally managed to get some good mileage out of Koishi in a boss battle. She dodged a lot of Mirror of the High God's attack and even survived a stray Ancient Curse by a tiny bit, and with an Astral Dominae she had 4 MP recovery, but she really couldn't do a lot of damage back unless someone silences it for her. She's in sore need of Earth Spirits party synergy (and Okuu Blazing for her) if you her evasion counters to actually amount to something :(
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Yeah, after I realized she has no damage support passives to back up her average-y MAG/formulas, I realized there was a problem. She definitely has potential, but you need to actually be running Utsuho and Orin (and/or satori, but that's somewhat less likely. Yukari endgame synergy with Satori at over 99 max mp? :V). On the upside, Utsuho is notably better now and both her and Orin have great corridor awakenings, so that's not a bad option.
Oooh, synergizing with Okuu's blazing though... that'll be important to note down on the wiki review when it comes up.
JP wiki also notes that Ancestors' damage goes up even MORE if you land both status effects, but that requires the boss to be vulnerable to both.
Also, as you're someone actually using her, I'd like to ask you; I've realized the "Myouren Temple Disciple?" skill is worded in terms of Byakuren's stat buffs both in the original translation and on the jp wiki googlese but it sounds like it doesn't mean her sutras? There's a note saying it doesn't work if they have higher buffage than it grants but neither Kokoro nor Koishi can get such a thing anyway if it meant her sutras? I'm assuming that it actually means their buffs are at a ~30% minimum if they're out with a heavily buffed up Byakuren, which is alright for a lil' buff headstart, but not especially notable.
edit:...also, yes, using Aya to give Patchy turns is probably easier. Can help keep Aya's mp up if you make Patch a monk still, but you're probably not using her as a monk the rest of the time... (HOWEVER, if her 10% delay decrease actually synergizes with High Speed Aria and reduces by the original delay amount, that might be useful. If she doesn't sub a magic class though she might be wanting guardian for grand incantation though. Choices are hard)
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Yeah, after I realized she has no damage support passives to back up her average-y MAG/formulas, I realized there was a problem. She definitely has potential, but you need to actually be running Utsuho and Orin (and/or satori, but that's somewhat less likely. Yukari endgame synergy with Satori at over 99 max mp? :V). On the upside, Utsuho is notably better now and both her and Orin have great corridor awakenings, so that's not a bad option.
Oooh, synergizing with Okuu's blazing though... that'll be important to note down on the wiki review when it comes up.
JP wiki also notes that Ancestors' damage goes up even MORE if you land both status effects, but that requires the boss to be vulnerable to both.
Also, as you're someone actually using her, I'd like to ask you; I've realized the "Myouren Temple Disciple?" skill is worded in terms of Byakuren's stat buffs both in the original translation and on the jp wiki googlese but it sounds like it doesn't mean her sutras? There's a note saying it doesn't work if they have higher buffage than it grants but neither Kokoro nor Koishi can get such a thing anyway if it meant her sutras? I'm assuming that it actually means their buffs are at a ~30% minimum if they're out with a heavily buffed up Byakuren, which is alright for a lil' buff headstart, but not especially notable.
No it's not the sutra, it's an immediate 30% buff from what Byakuren is currently having after Kokoro/Koishi gets a turn. So yeah, not useless, but not too good either, since after you get Byakuren to max the next thing you do is to use that Byakuren to buff others anyway. In the end, the skill only works for a couple of first turns.
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命蓮寺の修行者？
スキル取得者の行動時に、聖が持つ能力上昇効果の1/3が
スキル取得者にコピーされる。このスキル効果で得られる能力上昇効果よりも
高い能力上昇効果を既に持っている場合、コピーは実行されない。
Myouren Temple Dsiciple?
When the skill holder acts, take 1/3 of Hijiri's current buffs
and have the skill holder copy them. If currently, compared to the buffs given by the effect of this skill,
that (the skill holder) has higher buffs, then the copy will not take place.
So yes, it's only good for a headstart, or maybe if Byakuren just got hit with Destroy Magic and you chose her elemental or status sutra instead of the MP regeneration. Theoretically it could also be useful if they got hit with a heavy single-target debuff or something, but Koishi starts with 100 debuff resistance Kokoro 128 so... in practice not really.
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It's a good head start. Byakuren doesn't have an obscene 100% instantaneous buff, so now they'll get like, 80% buffs from the initial one instead of ~50%. That's fairly nice.
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Now that I finished everything up till 100 infinite corridor, I can't wait for the next patch. Hopefully Satori will be buffed in some way :V
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I'm very sorry if this is the wrong place to put this, but iw as wondering if the skill "High Level Treatment" is supposed to be working in the non plus disk patch. Throughout all of my playthroughs, i have never seen it activate.
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Yeah, Satori's... got potential in a few super gimmick setups (involving heavymaxing hp/mp and using patriot elixir/kimontonkou or Spiriting Away), but apart from that, even with her corridor weakness bonus she's gonna be like, hitting the numbers all your bulky attackers can hit already. Even if you DO run the whole earth spirits team she seems like a dubious choice. Super fragility makes it go into "why?", so it's support gimmicks or bust.
I had fun with Gambler Satori in maingame but she doesn't keep up with damage bonuses postgame and gambler got wrecked.
Koishi and Kokoro could prolly use a lil' somethin' somethin' too, but Koishi at least works well in an Earth Spirits team and Kokoro might make a good Dragon God?
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Well, after awakening Satori can kill every boss without letting them have a turn (assuming she uses some specific teammates), so she has that going for her :V
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um what :getdown:
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Someone (Keine?), Yukari, Satori, Aya. Magician for everyone except Aya who should have Murakumo with MP drain (6 MP per turn). Satori uses Spiriting Away; free slot char switches Satori with Yukari, Yukari switches Satori with herself, Aya gives Satori a turn. As long as Satori has enough MP after this to cast another Spiriting Away (I think 72 base MP is good enough), then you can loop until the boss has 1 HP left, then hit it with whatever to finish up.
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WELP
If the jp have noticed then that passive will probably get fixed to where Satori has to be -actually- swapped out to regain her 25% mp. Although this does bring up an idea of subbing Satori with Murakamo... she can cast Grand Patriot's Elixir forever with the mp drain passive. It'll suck the front row's mp, but she can just -keep going- and she can even drain the HP back if you're willing so that she can stay out through boss turns.
Although, Murakumo might be overkill if you can still abuse small mp recovery. You could just sub enchanter for the self-heal on buff and have someone (Orin or Kogasa for speed?) swap her around periodically.
Even if 3peso fixes Small MP Recovery, you can still combo with an instant attacker to make it still be somewhat abusable.
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Probably the easier way to fix it would be to not let Murakumo's MP drain work at double efficiency. This way Aya would only be able to get 3 MP back, plus 2 from Keine's passive; not enough to keep the loop going indefinitely.
BUT WAIT~ Sanae's awakening lets her restore up to 5 MP for the entire team per turn so this can still work~ Yeah I guess there's no escaping this :V
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I dunno, killing Murakumo's mp passive just to stop one gamebreak would make me saaad. Although, huh... yeah, I guess Aya could use that with -anyone- to extreme effect, even if not a total game break grade.
Jesus. Murakumo's gonna need his own entire section of suggestions for who to put it on. (Probably just one page for the entire set of special subs, since Dragon God is in a much smaller yet similar boat? Mmn. I guess Murakumo can just have a long description on the subclass page, actually.)
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Now that's one hell of a cheese lol, although not as broken as diva Aya I suppose.
I didn't put the Murakumo subclass on anyone yet, since I'm still not sure who would make the most out of it. Probably bulky attacker with that doesn't want to switch out since they would appreciate the sustain Murakumo gives, so Kasen, Okuu, attacker Shou and Mokou to a much lesser extent etc.
And then we have those characters with passives that increases stats or damage when either HP or MP is full, either awakened or not. Youmu, Yuugi and Miko comes to the top of mind for me. Probably there're more of them.
Also it's kinda useful for attacker that can't buff themselves, but then we can use other characters for that.
Speaking of which, Futo still has this problem of buffs and heals remove plates. Makes her harder to use especially since she has kind of average stats and spells and she needs those plates to be in competition to other characters.
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Oooh... that could be a good build for Youmu indeed, using Murakumo for more HP regen and to activate Calm And Serene Mind. Oh, but it's not all good, since it sort of negates her ability to make use of her awakening very well... and youmu's not that good without her awakening. Miko can make better use of it, but she'd be limited to only using Tradition of Just Rewards if she wanted max mp for the passive. Of course, the passive isn't critically important, but she's mostly only getting hp regen out of it otherwise. Hmm, it's still not a bad option, esp. in cases where she IS using that move.
Yuugi would definitely enjoy it after awakening- 30% extra damage at max mp, atk/def buffs at max hp. Sweeet. Helps enable full-power knockouts or to make her one heck of a juggernaut when attacking with Phenomenon/Murakumo Slash.
I might throw it on Maribel. She doesn't need the mp passive, but Grand Incantation works great with Start of Heavenly Demise, and combined with her Renko synergy, she'd have massive stay-out power to use with Rapid Charge and Incantation. At the least, until I Awaken Maribel- at which point I'd see how it was working out, etc.
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Koishi's "DEF/MND/Evade up when attacked by AoE" skill doesn't work. :ohdear:
Also the fix for Futo's synergy skill apparently made it work regardless of whether Miko is even in the party of 12 or not.
And Suika's Free Spirited Oni seems to be... weird. I tried to have her solo a lamprey serpent with regular attacks; somehow it seems that instead of increasing the damage bonus as the target's HP goes down, it ended up giving the largest increase when target has near (but not actually) full health, and the bonus goes down as the target's HP goes down. Actually now I'm looking at the skill description I'm not even sure what we have currently is correct any more. "敵のＨＰが減っていればいるほど、敵に与えるダメージが上昇する。" <- can someone figure out whether this meant "less HP = less bonus" or "less HP = more bonus"?
Diamond Blizzard's PAR is still 6000 lol (maybe he meant "proc rate" up; it did seem to be more accurate than 85% at least)
Mamizou's Seven Transformations only seem to have status proc on half the elements; NTR is PAR/PSN, WND is SPD down, CLD is SIL/HVY, DRK is ATK/MAG down. FIR and PHY did far mor edamage than SPI and MYS though, despite my test subject (Fantasy Mushroom) being weak to WND and thus having the same affinity for taking damage regardless of what element it transformed into.
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Huh, that's doofy about Mamizou; assuming it's not even -weaker- to FIR and PHY (I mean, as a mushroom, it's probably weak to fir). Interesting, though. I wonder if Kokoro's magic skill gets stronger on certain elements since it's description sounded more like that? I'm not at home right now to test, though. (edit:JP wiki says the damage changes on emotions other than joy but only within the range of stat change. Not finished?)
Koishi should be more effective once she can reap EVA Up, at least. Since it's one of the three only ways in the game to get evasion buffs (reimu and chen) it'd be a significant bonus, and the def mnd obviously helps too. At least Futo's thing sort of evens out her plates thing not working right now? :V
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All below values are at level 1. As far as I know most status infliction attacks don't vary in status strength regardless of spell level, though some debuff attacks do. Since most of these are all all-debuffs with low magnitude you can probably assume that they would vary by 1% per level if they vary at all.
Futatsuiwa Clan's Curse: SIL is 12000 and debuffs are 11%. SHK doesn't have an effect value but it's definitely very accurate, probably 100% or close to it. SIL also seems to be very accurate, but the debuffs are less so (at level 1).
Dazzling Gold: PAR is 4000 and HVY is 12000. Neither are 100% accurate. (Testing even once is a pain because I can only use them on enemies with no resistances so please forgive me for not using it enough times to gauge accuracy)
Mononobe's Eighty Sake Cups: Hits all when plate count is 10 and 10 only. Animation doesn't seem to change at all.
Gate to Catastrophe: 1 plate = PSN; 2 plate = TRR; 3 plate = HVY; 4 plates = SIL; 5 plates = PAR, 6 plates = SHK, 8 plates = DTH (and at which point testing stops because subject is, well, dead).
Taiyi True Fire: PSN is 5000+500*Plate count.
Tradition of Just Rewards: The debuff is 12%.
Tokiko's "reckless" book: Without Reading SIL is 14000 and debuffs are 10%. With Reading SIL is 23000 and debuffs are 18%.
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Interesting! Gate to Catastrophe will be pretty neat once Futo's fixed. It's almost too bad my team doesn't currently plan to use anyone with status synergies, since between Futo and Rumia, I'll be kind of set there I suppose :V
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Regarding Satori it's worth noting that against enemies that like to buff their offensive stats she can be quite an effective HP tank, since Eyes that Perceive Reality allows her to ignore those buffs.
I found her pretty helpful against the knowledge's and the azure giant's shadows. Again, Komachi is obviously still the better choice most of the time since she has regeneration and better resistances but it's something :V
I'm thinking of maybe subclassing her as an Elementalist for the increased resistances and the 8000 delay spells to proc Extra Experiences of Trauma, the increased elemental damage also seems to synergize well with her Trauma Recollection, allowing her to tank attacks while providing some decent offensive support ( as long as she has someone healing her).
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Eyes that Perceive Reality is pretty good on some fights but Momiji does it better, since Satori possesses... nothing else to give her durability except a nice max hp count. Although if you're already using Satori it's something to keep in mind on gimmick fights, yeah.
I can see where you're going as elementalist, but it doesn't really sound like it'd pay off enough to be worth the effort, unfortunately. Trauma's damage isn't anything special unless you're using a super low delay move and Satori would require an awful lot of healing attention- nor does elementalist's buffs do very much or pack nearly a low enough delay to make it worthwhile.
If you want to make it work you need to use it with, at minimum, something like Marisa or Chen's self-buffs (88% and 95% delay), but they're both really fragile, so Reisen ( the godly 98%) is the only really good option. She can self-heal using said high-speed buffs if you sub enchanter, which is a good idea for damage burst style, but obviously it blows through her mp like mad and requires you to use fast swappers (tank-built awakened kogasa? or orin) to shuffle her around for Small Mp Recovery. HP build Satori certainly has potential, but she still doesn't really want to stay out longer than she needs to.
(Although it's kind of hilarious to imagine dragon god satori using patriot's elixir to buff up the front row, it's probably a hilarious waste of the class)
Mmm, Orin or Kogasa using their fast-swap skill to throw Satori around the frontline does sound effective. Build Reisen and Kogasa as tanks, Kogasa's got hp regen, sub Kogasa monk or healer for passive heal/buff addition, with 9300 atb swaps Satori can keep her mp flowing for elixirs for quite awhile... with about 68 max mp she wouldn't run out, if you also learn monk's ATB reduction and Kogasa has a bit more speed than her. Kogasa's passive heal plus subclass heal on 9300 atb turns will keep the front sort of healthy, the only problem is you're using 3 slots up. The 4th would just need to be like... Awakened Reimu or Minoriko to keep everyone alive.
edit:Oh wait, it's 9100 atb swaps. So 9190 if you're really minmaxing it with Monk. That's 4 casts of patriot's, could make it more like 3.5 with speed difference. 68 max MP on Satori would still last a reallllly long time, long enough. When it's time to stop, Kogasa can fastswap her and Reisen both out immediately for other members. Okay, how strong is Kogasa's regen in "event" battles with no terror up, that's what I'd curious about now.
For reference Satori should have 65 mp at lv440 with double mp boost and 10 mp gems, which should be a trivially easy amount of investment as MP gems are one of the most common ones. Her equips would be mostly for hp, but you could give her the mp using equips to never need to stop if you really wanted. That'd mostly be relevant if you wanted enough mp to spam Spiriting Away a lot too.
SO REGALSTAR. Could you grab Renko and Awakened Kogasa and run into the 2f FOE or something? Cast Charge n' see how much % Kogasa heals on her turn? o: I may have a full unlock save but it's not got awakened characters on it. Christ, now I'm imagining her and Satori both subbed healer. Front row recovers 20% max hp every ~800 atb ticks plus Kogasa's passive. It's so dumb. It's so good
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It heals 2% in random battles, 8% in event battles. After I goaded the sheep into using Great Roar and getting TRR on Kogasa it healed 26%. EDIT: Went after Siren of Silence and inflicted TRR on her, and it healed 26% too.
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8%? Woah. Sub her healer (or later, dragon god, where this really starts to look nice...) and just shuffle the front row for 9100 atb turns that regen 12% of everyone's health. Move over Kokoro. >_> And since it's 9100 atb... that adds up to a -lot- of regen. Her base HP is only average but handing her a first aid kit and using her cheap library to tweak it up, well- and she's got solid base def to soften blows even after being an HP sponge build. She's not just sitting there for HP regen either; you get to heavily swap people in/out of the front at any necessary moment (albiet it's not keine-grade or even rinnosuke-grade, but you've got quantity and availability over quality), and she has Sheer Force to inflict any subclass status effects if you specifically want it for a boss, like one weak to SHK or PAR. And she passively regenerates her MP, if you're using skills more for a fight. Damn. I might -actually- use this because I really like Kogasa, although there's so much competition in terms of tank slots for my party as it is >_>
...her affinities are kinda meh, too, but dragon god gives some pretty insane boosts, there. Also, yeah, if you can actually inflict TRR, she'll have 40% dmg resist and full-heal-entire-frontline-between-boss-turns grade regen, uh.
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Come to think of it, Youmu and Yuyuko's passive helps against many, many plus disk bosses since they are ghosts. And those two can be tanks when equiped to be one, with skills from subclass to help them support the team.
As for Kogasa, yeah she's definitely really good with Dragon god. That healing would give good sustain if you run 4 tanky characters up front.
The next slot would be some sort of strategist buffer to help speed up the buff, so Keine? Or anyone if you use Ran to buff the backlines.
If you also awaken Reisen, something I did since her awakening is universally useful with magnificent vertigo, some boss with high terror resistance can be inflicted, especially when Kogasa has sheer force.
Once terrified, Kogasa would be so hard to kill it's refreshing.
But for me, plus disk bosses tends to kill my damage dealers fast. So regen strat would require a certain amount of investment into their defenses, which translate into grinding for more cash :S
Edit: a bit off topic but seeing so many characters getting skills that directly buff evasion (Rumia, Chen, Alice, Cirno etc.) Koishi should have one of these to a lesser extent, especially when her playstyle require such luck to work ;A;
Not many attack items boost her evasion and vice versa, if she doesn't focus on either side she's not going to do well in both.
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Yeah, it's true that I don't know quite how survivability goes in Plus. But people with high damage reduction (meiling, futo once her plates work, potentially fighting spirit users) are likely somethin'.
And yeah, if you can inflict Terror, it's not just kogasa that'd be impossible to kill; 9100 atb 26% hp regen is basically fullheals forever >_>
edit:Oooh, I thought of another use. Use the 9100 atb swaps with instant attackers. Momiji is a really solid option since she self-maintains buffs and is a good bulky attacker, whilst Chen/Mystia are somewhat more dubious, but still options. Mystia is actually really good post-awakening if you can inflict Silence, and can afford to spam Midnight Chorus Master in this build for high power and 120% SIL accuracy at massive duration- and her fragility isn't a notable problem with such a swap-heavy build. Chen probably wouldn't be a good option unless maybe you were running yakumo.
Translating Kogasa's fast swaps into fast blasting ontop of the regen, now this is looking good. Pair her with another HP tank and she'll keep both of their HP high, and there's a lot of viable hp tanks now. Other tank would provide more conventional support. Like, you know, Strategist Byakuren. (Byakuren could prolly still be def/mnd split, but this'd give enough regen to consider hp?)
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Yeah, it's true that I don't know quite how survivability goes in Plus. But people with high damage reduction (meiling, futo once her plates work, potentially fighting spirit users) are likely somethin'.
And yeah, if you can inflict Terror, it's not just kogasa that'd be impossible to kill; 9100 atb 26% hp regen is basically fullheals forever >_>
edit:Oooh, I thought of another use. Use the 9100 atb swaps with instant attackers. Momiji is a really solid option since she self-maintains buffs and is a good bulky attacker, whilst Chen/Mystia are somewhat more dubious, but still options. Mystia is actually really good post-awakening if you can inflict Silence, and can afford to spam Midnight Chorus Master in this build for high power and 120% SIL accuracy at massive duration- and her fragility isn't a notable problem with such a swap-heavy build. Chen probably wouldn't be a good option unless maybe you were running yakumo.
Translating Kogasa's fast swaps into fast blasting ontop of the regen, now this is looking good. Pair her with another HP tank and she'll keep both of their HP high, and there's a lot of viable hp tanks now. Other tank would provide more conventional support. Like, you know, Strategist Byakuren. (Byakuren could prolly still be def/mnd split, but this'd give enough regen to consider hp?)
If you're running this strat, buffing the instant attacker would require precise timing? Since, well I played Mystia and I always have problem buffing her safely myself lol. Unless it's a slow boss. But yes, I think Mystia and Momiji are already quite good even without awakening.
But you'll still need other magic attacker since these two have no def pieceing capability, and there are some of those that has really high defense iirc.
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I edited the wiki a bit about the enhanced boss shadows. Azure Giant and Demonic Eye are vulnerable to Reisen, Yuyuko combo, tested as I play my new run since ain't nobody got time for weaklings who can't even resist death. :v
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If you're running this strat, buffing the instant attacker would require precise timing? Since, well I played Mystia and I always have problem buffing her safely myself lol. Unless it's a slow boss. But yes, I think Mystia and Momiji are already quite good even without awakening.
But you'll still need other magic attacker since these two have no def pieceing capability, and there are some of those that has really high defense iirc.
Momiji is very bulky and can afford to stay out for buffs sometimes, and (after awakening) has Encounter with a Strong Foe and Accelerate ontop of her passive that EASILY lets her cap her ATK buff permanently with no outside support, so she's perfect for the strat. Mystia is somewhat more of a problem; she'd probably need to sub Warrior to keep her ATK buff at a reasonable amount and try to come out right before a buffer's turn occasionally. But also with this strat, it would be very easy to micromanage switch timings; Kogasa getting a swap in every 900 atb means it's easy to throw Mystia out just before Byakuren or Renko or whoever takes their turn. Also, if the boss isn't immune to SIL, Mystia's 30% stat up (plus 16%+ from other passives) actually gives her workable durability- but her HP would still be somewhat low and you're probably gonna give her glass cannon atk equips in this setup.
And about the magical/piercing attacks; well, they certainly won't be the only characters in the party; Kogasa's fastswaps are still useful on others, totally ignore your party's skill delays by swapping out after any notable delay moves, swap in right after boss turns, etc. They could take off Swordmaster/Warrior to sub monk sometimes though, and Momiji ignores the enemy's DEF buffs already with Eyes that See Reality, so she's vaguely covered for it- but yeah, it's a good synergy but you still have other party members. That, and Kogasa also synergizes heavily with Satori/Reisen HP damage combo, especially if he doesn't ever make it so she has to actually swap to the back for Small MP Recovery. Get a good chunk of MP and Satori basically just doesn't run out, making Patriot Elixir blast damage amazingly viable irresistable damage, with either Healer or Enchanter sub for passive healing to keep her going.
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It turns out that Rinnosuke CAN upgrade his high boost after all; by using the third tier book on him when the corresponding high boost is maxed will turn it into "giga boost". It costs a whooping 75 points per level, and has the following gains:
HP Giga Boost: 1.6 HP per level
MP Giga Boost: 5 MP per level
TP Giga Boost: 6 TP per level
ATK Giga Boost: 1.5 ATK per level (persumably MAG is the same)
DEF Giga Boost: 1.1 DEF per level (persumably MND is the same)
SPD Giga Boost: 0.9 SPD per level
As an aside, I also found out that SPD second/mega aren't double of the normal boost skills. Level 5 second boost gives 1.1 SPD in total while Level 5 mega boost gives 1.5 SPD in total.
Of course, accuracy/evasion/affinity/resistances can't be upgraded for anyone, so he doesn't get a Giga boost in those stats either.
Double post: Maribel's Chaotic Quadruple Barrier, when combined with Mamizou's Uncatchable Tanuki Disguiser, can instant death enemies with 100 DTH resistance as long as she lands a Shock with it, and actually somewhat reliably too. It's how I'm dealing with those Emerald Nuts since it's superior than having Futo poisoning them twice or subbing a Toxicologist on someone.
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Double post: Maribel's Chaotic Quadruple Barrier, when combined with Mamizou's Uncatchable Tanuki Disguiser, can instant death enemies with 100 DTH resistance as long as she lands a Shock with it, and actually somewhat reliably too. It's how I'm dealing with those Emerald Nuts since it's superior than having Futo poisoning them twice or subbing a Toxicologist on someone.
Given that the Shock chance is 100% at base, it's not much of a surprise. I would imagine that a character that has Shield Bash and Sheer Force would work as effectively.
Also, I have been looking at the subclasses, and I noticed the new ones. The spell card Oracle of the Shepard is labeled as Dark element, but I remember that it was Cold element. Has that changed, or is this an error?
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Given that the Shock chance is 100% at base, it's not much of a surprise. I would imagine that a character that has Shield Bash and Sheer Force would work as effectively.
Also, I have been looking at the subclasses, and I noticed the new ones. The spell card Oracle of the Shepard is labeled as Dark element, but I remember that it was Cold element. Has that changed, or is this an error?
It's because either atwiki lied to me, or they actually tried using the spell and found it to be actually dark. I will test it in a minute or so.
EDIT: It's DRK elemental now. My v1.102 translation file had it as CLD though, so I suspect that it was an unstated update for 1.103.
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I think the reason Maribel's spell inflicts megadeath is because it not only has high chance to shock, but ALSO high chance to DTH. And then Mamizou's passive probably -adds onto that chance-, giving it far more than 100% chance to hit. Most bosses are heavily resistant to shock and have well over 100 DTH resist but it might have a few amusing applications there, especially with sheer force sub guardian and Reisen's passive making it entirely realistic to SHK many more bosses.
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The death effect, is it more accurate and powerful that Yuyuko's nirvana? Since if it is, then that's a new way to cheese certain bosses right there! :V
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I remember Yuyuko's level 5 Flawless Nirvana with Reisen in the frontline not being enough to actually inflict instant death on them. If we assume that Maribel's and Mamizou's DTH effects stacked and consider that Maribel's Chaotic Quadruple Barrier has an 80% chance to inflict DTH, Mamizou's DTH effect would need to be about 70% or more (I'm not sure how much Intense Vertigo reduces resistances, I'm assuming it's about 20).
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Sorry for the slightly offtopic note, but I wanted to make a quick (sad) remark about LoT1: The wiki says that WINNER's chance of dropping Regalia is 10+x%, where x is the number of times you have killed him. But I have killed him 95 times, and I still get drop-less kills now and then - which is kinda lame (oh btw, brace yourselves for 100th kill video soon...^^)
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(oh btw, brace yourselves for 100th kill video soon...^^)
YOU ARE OUT OF CONTROL
also cool c:
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Regalia's drop rate is actually 10 + (number of kills / 10)%, so even at 100 kills it's only 20%.
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Regalia's drop rate is actually 10 + (number of kills / 10)%, so even at 100 kills it's only 20%.
So it would take 900 kills to make it a guaranteed drop, which is ridiculous, considering that it's WINNER that we are talking about here.
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+1% per kill would have made a lot more sense considering context. But it goes how it goes~
I wonder how the new lingering boss will scale... (Assuming it still powers up; else what's the point of it lingering?) Since there's still more infinite corridors to go afterwards, it's even somewhat relevant.
3peso where's the update dear lord you said early/mid jan back when that meant "a few weeks". I shouldn't be surprised, this is how 3peso goes :V
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For all we know, he might have meant January 2018 and February 2019 respectively :V
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Part of me is wondering if the patch will come out pre-FFXIV Fanfest or post-FFXIV Fanfest, given 3peso is big on FFXIV (And DQX too but I dunno if there's any big DQX events happening since I don't play it). A friend of mine bet he's going to release it during Fanfest. In any case, hopefully within a week or so?
Also, been messing around with some run ideas for LoT2 out of boredom, LoT1's runs I just lost the energy to do, and I'm waiting on the next patch to continue Team 9 in LoT2 (even though I could get to 100F in Endless Corridor, I just don't feel like it). One run idea I've actually gotten further than just the first stratum is "Team Terror", AKA Parsee, Kasen, Kogasa, and Reisen. So far so good, surprisingly. Even with the lack of the queen of debuffs herself, Hina, the rest are pulling their weight so far. Just worried about the lack of a real tank and the lack of a healer, even if Kasen can theoretically be on tank duty with Fighting Spirit and semi-passable DEF/MND.
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Part of me is wondering if the patch will come out pre-FFXIV Fanfest or post-FFXIV Fanfest, given 3peso is big on FFXIV (And DQX too but I dunno if there's any big DQX events happening since I don't play it). A friend of mine bet he's going to release it during Fanfest. In any case, hopefully within a week or so?
Also, been messing around with some run ideas for LoT2 out of boredom, LoT1's runs I just lost the energy to do, and I'm waiting on the next patch to continue Team 9 in LoT2 (even though I could get to 100F in Endless Corridor, I just don't feel like it). One run idea I've actually gotten further than just the first stratum is "Team Terror", AKA Parsee, Kasen, Kogasa, and Reisen. So far so good, surprisingly. Even with the lack of the queen of debuffs herself, Hina, the rest are pulling their weight so far. Just worried about the lack of a real tank and the lack of a healer, even if Kasen can theoretically be on tank duty with Fighting Spirit and semi-passable DEF/MND.
By team 9, are you using them alone or with 12 man team? Since I've been struggling with them(new game+) when I face something that resist all the team's elements. Especially Wriggle since she does nothing if the enemy is immune to poison. But at least I subbed strategist on her.
But Rumia and Mystia is good lol.
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Regalia's drop rate is actually 10 + (number of kills / 10)%, so even at 100 kills it's only 20%.
Well, that's disappointing - almost as much as Longsword Ringil now hitting my tank for over 3 million w/o any buffs :-(
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When I mean Team 9, I mean literally just them, no one else.
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Can you describe your subclass distribution? Who takes the role of buffer etc. And how do you deal with bosses resistant to all the team's elements?
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Wriggle: Tends to have Strategist on, because the passive bonuses are just too good. She's otherwise setup as a tank for the most part, and unfortunately is the most "useless" of them all. I believe I've made her a Healer or Diva on occasion depending on the fight, but most of the time she's a Strategist.
Mystia: Always DPS, all the time. Usually is a Monk or Warrior, though Plus Disk has had her take the Ame-no-Murakumo's Blessing. That in combination with Midnight Chorus Master makes her able to basically sweep random encounters no problem, while also giving her a desperately needed SPI attack in a party that lacks SPI attacks.
Cirno: Like Mystia, she tends to be DPS, though her speed has also made her a Healer on occasion. Tends to take Monk or Warrior.
Rumia: Interestingly, while she is my magic DPS, she's also my main healer and buffer, running Enhancer a lot of the time. That in combination with Demarcation allows for basically a minor party-wide defensive buff, and her Magic is so high that Demarcation, most of the time at least, is a full heal.
As for handling fights where the enemy resists everything I've got... well, there's always good ol' grinding, but most of the time there's a subclass with a spell I can use (Warrior for FIR, Monk for NTR). The only elements the team desperately lack during main game are PHY (which can be substituted with normal attacks) and SPI (which doesn't get fixed until getting Ame-no-Murakumo's Blessing, because subclasses before that are very bad at giving SPI coverage). DRK is also somewhat of a problem but if I reaaaaally need to I'll use Dark Side of the Moon, though most of the time it doesn't matter because of Piercing Attack on Rumia.
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Warrior can at least sort of give you PHY with Empowered Attack if you really need it, and Monk's WND isn't so bad against weak bosses- it's your only source of SPD boost so the buff actually kinda helps Thrust work well.
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It's amazing how you got pass the magatama and mirror with the team alone lol. They gave me huge problem both on my main save and a new game with + chars, especially when I try to fight at challenge level. But yeah I think their awakening are quite good except for Wriggle IMO since half of her awakening needs the boss to be vulnerable to poison.
Cirno has a really good awakening i think. Slowing any kind of boss without fail is unique to her alone and that really defines her playstyle.
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I'm probably risking sounding incredibly dumb right here, but I fail to find
Kokoro and Koishi's locations
on 24F. Could anyone please give me a hint? I'm rather sure I found literally everything else on the upper floors of Plus Disk. ...The spoiler probably is unnecessary, but I'm not going to risk spoiling anyone anyway.
Edit: Nevermind, I found both of them. In Koishi's case, it was a failure on my part - the game had crashed, leading to me missing an event for her. :blush:
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Hmm, I was thinking about my Kogasa tank idea abusing Instant Attackers again today at work. Chen... initially I mostly ruled her out compared to Momiji and Mystia, but she's actually better suited than I thought. One of the weaknesses of the strat is you burn through the instant attacker's mp very quickly; although that's fine since kogasa can speedily swap them (And possibly herself) out to restore MP and overall, you're still getting just as much damage as you would from burning that mp at normal speed- just way faster. (This is also a good reason to run all 3 instant attackers if you can spare the space)
But, Chen can use her self-debuffs synergy with Hexer Conversion to fix up the mp thing, suddenly a more notable build with Kogasa fastswap tank. As well, she's fast enough to potentially cast Idaten AND then Phoenix Spread Wings inbetween Kogasa's turns, which deals with her lower damage potential compared to Mystia/Momiji (esp. post awakening), especially as Phoenix Spread Wings has a nice formula. (And she can easily fit in kimontonkou instead of idaten, or double idaten if elements warrant it, etc) This also lets her still use her awakening skill some for ATK up. So, suddenly that looks pretty good; she can keep going and going where the strat will burn up Momi and Mystia's mp fast unless you're like, Magician Mystia with Ill-Starred Dive for max mp longevity (which isn't the worst idea in this build, either- occasional chorus master for SIL when possible)
Her base atk is absolutely garbage but it's much easier to patch that up in postgame, and easier to use her cheap library when she'd literally only care about ATK and a minor spd investment. Still really bothered by good def enemies, but super drill will exist.
It also makes Mystia's party-mp-on-concentrate somewhat better because with 900 delay it's not entirely pointless. Giving them some mp recovery boosts and just concentrating with Kogasa's fast turns to deal with mp isn't such a bad idea either, as they'd still get more attack turns than most other attackers would, but... hrm. And huh, Swordmaster Momiji using the mp recovery attack... (as post-awakening Momiji is perfect for that sub as it is)
and so I sit here and tweak my future party design as I wait for 3peso to finish it. Fitting in Kogasa/Momiji/Mystia was surprisingly non-difficult, but swapping a spot for Chen too might take a tougher decision >.> Currently looking at a final goal party of...
Renko/Byakuren/Kogasa support core (all of which regen hp and provide buffage after kogasa eventually has dragon god sub- I might not be using her until then anyway??? kogasa regen should be A+ with renko's potential hp and might encourage hp byakuren build depending on how stuff scales postgame, I'd have to see)
Meiling/Futo big damage reduction bulky attackers (mountain breaker is sooo goood and meiling's soooo durable)
Miko/Nitori maintenance bulky attackers (and miko can eventually clear off boss buffs! Yay! also eventually increases everyone's buffs even in the backline!)
Maribel/Rumia damage/support hybrids that also cover my healing (Rumia's bulk is actually not half bad, either, and Maribel should -rock- after awakening- plus vision sharing! MOAR BUFFS FOR ALL)
Momiji/Mystia instant attackers for Kogasa to megaswap
Hina for debuffs. (After awakening she might be pretty good as an attacker hybrid? I'd see about that later. I DO have Hina+Momi+Nitori for awakening synergy team...) Futo+Rumia could also both deal all status effects.
I guess if it worked out well enough I'd drop one of the bulky attackers for Chen- unless Rumia and Miko's awakening debuffs were accurate enough to replace hina, dooooubt it though, more like just make it easier to run Hina as a hybrid offense. RIGHT NOW, my party is that, except Kogasa is Rinnosuke tank, and Futo/Miko/Momi/Mystia are instead Kaguya/Eirin/Yuyuko/Iku (who I've been swapping between iku/shikieiki sometimes). Eirin's overheal is REALLY good, I'll see how I feel about it postgame, but I'm okay with losing the defense ignorers (I can swap them in with glass cannon only investment levels for relevant bosses postgame) and Yuyuko's painful library cost, level rate, and lack of damage boost passives actually makes her a -lot- less useful in bosses than I expected from her great stats and useful moves.
If I have to I'll swap Rumia for Reimu :C But I don't wanna. I think I won't need to?? And until I start using the Kogasa combo I'd just keep on with Rinno/Eirin/Iku prolly. Iku gets a lot nicer in plus, huge speed increase, counter works now... if I don't like it I'll swap back to Shikieiki again :V Kaguya now that gambler is nerfed is sad and it's hard to make her fast enough to ever use in randoms :T And dropping Rinno for Kogasa will make it really hard to use her in bosses either.
Technically Kogasa means amazing potential for Satori/Reisen combo but I'd have to make some painful character tossouts so if anything, it would be a gimmick I'd swap in on certain bosses as satori/reisen would ONLY need some hp investment. ezpz. (But satori would need awakening so that'd be a seriously lategame thing if it's only for sometimes... it's something I'd do on dumb corridor bosses??)
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Atwiki posted the extra effects of Mamizou's Transformation in Ten Danmaku that I didn't find. Here's the list:
FIR: MAG multiplier up
CLD: HVY, SHK
WND: SPD Down
NTR: PSN, PAR
MYS: MP cost 6->4
SPI: Postuse 4000->6600
DRK: ATK, MAG down
PHY: Damage multiplier up
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Hmmm... the move would be pretty interesting against an enemy either weak to WND or not weak to anything (choose for effect, not for hitting weakness! That gets pretty good!) but the rest of the time... you're just gonna pick for weakness. It's not even realistic to use it in randoms, apart from as the generic base version. (She's got a fast enough normal to get an element, but you'd just have to live with whatever element you rolled...)
So it's a move where the design kind of surpasses the realistic realm of use. Still, when the desired weakness aligns or they're weak to WND/nothing, it's interesting. It would also be interesting if she was more suited to running as a support character (choose your status/debuffs!) but alas.
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did a big patch hit yet?
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Nope! You can use this page to keep track.
http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/THL2P/top.html
You can see where it lists the new version updates.
Someone will mostly likely post here about it day of the patch, though. I know I check almost once a day >.>
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Charagraph is fun.
(https://puu.sh/ujw9U/df4d982364.jpg)
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wasn't a (big) patch supposed to come half a month after expansions release, and then another big one end of February?
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Yeah, it was "early to mid january and sometime February" iirc. Obviously, though, that didn't happen :V We did get a mid-Jan patch but it was just some character tweaking, which is, while welcome, none of the actual additional content expected. There's still several more floors to be added (both in down and upstairs) and, of course, 899 more floors of infinite corridor (of which the first patch was supposed to add 140 more, bringing it to 240?)
Anyway, it'll come eventually, 3peso taking it's sweet time isn't actually anything new. Just, at this point, don't hold your breath. :V
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Charagraph is fun.
Pffff xD
That looks amazing, probably the best thing I've seen all day
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Oh god. Hello there! So i didn't looked into labyrinth of touhou since i completed it ( when the english translation wasn't completed yet. ) And now i see that a extension is out...
But is there a english translation for that one? For at least the spell and item like before?
I did a bit of checking around there, but i'm still curious.
Also, sorry but, is there a link to download the Plus Disk?
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Labyrinth of Touhou 2, I assume you mean? There isn't a translation for Plus Disk on that yet. They're waiting on major content patches that are coming sometime. Labyrinth of Touhou 1 Special Disk is fully translated if you mean that one, though.
I know LoT2:Plus Disk is up for purchase on the standard jp dlsite somewhere but I'm not familiar with the site. Maybe google could help, though.
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Alright, thanks. And yup, i did mean the 2nd of the series.
Welp, depending on how much it cost and how much i got left at the end of next month, i may buy it. Since i like the first game and the 2nd a lot.
For now, i'll just complete the 20 basic floor again but in english this time.
..Hmm, sorry to be a bother again but, is there a font to install or something? There is text that is out of the windows : http://puu.sh/ulcf8/bdf4c47c52.jpg
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..Hmm, sorry to be a bother again but, is there a font to install or something? There is text that is out of the windows : http://puu.sh/ulcf8/bdf4c47c52.jpg
Run the game in Japanese Locale. Or change the locale of your computer Japanese (Control Panel -> Region -> Administrative for Windows 8, I don't know if its different for Windows 10)
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My computer is alerdy in japanese. Applocale didn't help either.
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Try to reinstall your game, that might help. Also, there might actually be a font file your missing.
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It's not the kind of game you really "install", so...
Try running it in a compatibility mode? :VV
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Welp, tried every comptability, didn't work. And it's probably the font that i'm missing, but i don't know which one this game use. o_?
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Thinking of getting back into this game but I stopped at the floor after you get Tenshi, where you have to mess around with the temperature.
Does anyone have tips for making that floor... not suck? I know it'll probably be bearable once I gain a few levels and am above-par with the enemies on it, but it'll still be annoying to navigate relative to even the last few floors.
Also is DEF/MND Yuuka viable in this game?
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DEF/MND Yuuka isn't really a viable build; she has very little going for her support-wise or tank-wise other than decent stats, and half of her self-buffing requires her to attack anyway. Extra Attack for subclass support skills is still worse than characters with innate support, and the extra support effects on her personal attacks are nowhere near strong enough to consider using them in a support build.
The temperature floors might seem annoying at first but when you actually do it, imo the temperature swapping is pretty simple and it's not that big of a deal. The enemies didn't give me that much trouble, although I do recall on the higher floors there was some pretty fast ones.
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I was looking at the new corridor skills and was wondering if Nitori's third skill was ever translated, since it was just ??? on page 4.
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I was looking at the new corridor skills and was wondering if Nitori's third skill was ever translated, since it was just ??? on page 4.
With this revised version, a spell that Rinnosuke is supposed to have (after getting the unlocking item) is accessible:
Precise Information / MP Cost 8 / Target All Frontliners / PHY / Auxillary / Heal all frontliners by a precentage of their maxHP. Also, all ailments and debuffs have a 50% chance of being lifted. The precentage of healing is quite low.
Also, it seems that Nitori is no longer going to have the stun gadget spell, but will have this skill instead:
Kappa's Material Aesthetica (1*75): When user is in the front while the battle ends, item drop rate is increased by 20%. If the user defeats an enemy, that enemy's item drop rate is increased by 40%.
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Wow, such a long time passed without news...
Well, while we wait for more info about TH2 (*coughpatchcough*), enjoy this video of my 100th WINNER kill^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIo5hSriq6w
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That video says it's UNAVAILABLE </3
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Ah sorry it should be published now
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Not bad! Going to go after version 256? Should be possible under 2000, I'd think.
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I have a feeling not; at that point the fight seems to have for a long time been "this is trivial, so let's play with low-effort wins in mind" considering he barely swaps and only used 6/12 party members in the fight at all.
But after doing that slog of a fight 100 times, who would do anything else? >_> Sure, it might be more "efficient" to be swapping in/out, using dem somewhat higher power nukes off Nitori/Flan/wackers more and maintain a higher atk/mag buff, but, since the fight's already trivial, it doesn't really... matter, and real-time-wise probably just slows it down with all the extra menuing when he can afford to just leave out bulky attackers and smash smash smash.
Neat to look at all the bloated numbers, but also looked like Winner turned into a punching bag. Albiet one that might be able to potentially do a cheap party kill with Time Stop or take out a few people with Ringils, but if he only used 6/12 people to start with and he's certainly got backups, well.
He was never the most interesting fight other than his final phase, unfortunately :V The leadup phases are just super generic damage slogs that make the fight long and arduous, with a big level grind requirement overall. Only the last phase does much interesting and he tends to keel over before much of that actually -happens-, either. This is why I was interested in fighting him a bunch and then stopped after a few kills. It was just -really- boring and once you have the level to kill him, the fight's pretty easy but so long. :V (with a couple "fuck you" possible rng skills near the end)
(I'll admit I'm partially talking about it this much because I have nothing else to do right now)
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Keep in mind that (1) I just had levelled a lot right before this fight and (2) I was especially lucky, in that WINNER never selected anything brutal (Berserk mode into Longsword Ringil/Sword of Light/Vorpal Blade, Time Stop, Medicine of Life, etc.). As for the lack of swapping, it was mostly to preserve defensive buffs on the front line, and because Rinnosuke didn't die (once Rinnosuke dies, I swap in Keine and then do more sweeper swapping to extend buffs to the whole team, just in case Keine dies as well).
As for what Sophilia said, technically it is possible (after all, WINNER is slightly vulnerable to paralysis), but I wouldn't advise it. Generally, I consider training more whenever some of the following happens:
1) Sword of Light becomes strong enough to OHKO Reimu through defensive buffs, without Berserk Mode
2) Wand of Dragon's Flame/Frost outdamages Reimu's AoE heal without buffs
3) Buff-less Longsword Ringil is strong enough to oneshot Rinnosuke through defensive buffs
Condition (1) is arguably the most important - most of my losses to WINNER are because either he oneshots my healers with Sword of Light, or because of Time Stop (but the latter's much more rare).
Anyway, if you want I can try recording a more "interesting" WINNER battle if I get one, eventually^^ Admittedly, the one above was quite anticlimatic
EDIT: Here is an example of things not going exactly as planned, with a much more brutal lategame, though I still managed to pull it off somehow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8ydWx6oGS8&feature=youtu.be
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...okay, yeah, that was way more interesting of a watch! I stand corrected, seeing that his more dangerous moves can wipe out a large chunk of the front row. (Especially once you lose the bulkier front-row members)
And yeahhh, at that level of speed, getting PAR off would last one hell of a long time. I guess when Reimu gets lucky off the occasional sealing circle like I saw you cast in the 100 video.
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As far as Paralysis duration goes, I once got off an early Evil Sealing Circle paralysis with Reimu and managed to take out approx 90% of WINNER's HP before it could get another action (it only managed to act once more before I finished it off).
As for the rest, yeah his row moves are brutal. Long Sword Ringil and Vorpal Blade are murderous - even without Berserk Mode, only Keine and Youmu have a chance to survive in the front. Lightning Tempest is not as powerful (especially because it has a longer delay), but still does solid damage.
Don't forget his single target moves, though. Crimson Petal Sword is somewhat laughable (though it still does enough dmg to put frailer members in killing range of other abilities), but Sword of Light and (especially) Katana Zantetsuken are very damn powerful. Sword of Light can be survived by Youmu, Yuugi, Rinnosuke, and Keine (and sometimes by Reimu), but the Katana is almost always a OHKO regardless of your defenses.
Anyway I reached 117 kills, and I feel like I need a bit of training again, seeing that Wand of Dragon's Flame/Frost can now 2HKO again Youmu and other less MND-inclined party members (a threshold you definitely don't want to sit in, as it makes phase 1 way too hectic)
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Anyone wants to take a gander at how the library costs in Laby2 works? I tried to derive a formula and failed rather miserably; it's definitely not a nice polynomial function this time around.
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So I tried looking into the library costs to see if I could derive a proper formula. The results were... mixed.
I used Tenshi as a test case. I took the costs of the first 300 levels of her HP stats and plotted them against the current level of her stat.
It gave me this graph:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mReGx0jrvKxbSkRyXan8MmBSEI2emCPGxxRSZOTj9fzLtvPXgwf4pd-WM8dERdo6RetkOqO8-jkvM0kiJ9Yp56uO4BAVf2xKBdWA5floFdBuifTHM9GyP7n8DawQISPYEdI9pLo)
You can see that the line is not completely smooth. This is because the costs do not increase evenly, sometimes the increases are much larger between some levels than they are between others. However, despite this it is clear that there is some trend, and so using some computer magic I was able to figure out a rough formula. Cost to the next level for one of tenshi's stat is equal to 4.601 + 2.841*(current level) + 0.02501*(current level)^2. Its hard to get an exact formula because I am pretty the game rounds the decimal points of the costs. So using some select points (to reduce the visual clutter) I graphed the formula over the observed values and got the graph below.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/R-avpzbiTu7lCsWMnF8ykJIg-0r5tNLgLC4shqaD_ro5bKFD_LAKRU4NRj5KRg4SppAb_JKfEr7wxWoL1w6q1nFE4ZsdcFmXeha30h5VHhoH8H1VFoto7wMiHRfca9d12aMgFo5B)
So this is what I got. The issues with this is that it doesn't give the exact cost that the game displays, and the formula only applies to tenshi's stats (I check it against patchy's stats which have a similar starting base cost of 5. Her's increases at a different rate). And because this formula is approximation it is changing ever so slightly with each additional point. So i don't think these cost formulas are going to be something that can be derived or determined, I think they can only be taken from the code like the damage formulas.
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can anyone show or explain how to use Charagraph in LoT2? I do want to change a few for fun
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It's been awhile, a big while I think lol. 3peso really seems to be taking his time on the updates.
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Update w h e n
Finally got around to playing and doing a majority of what's released of the plus disk so far, it's been lots of fun.
I only ended up using Kokoro (with Healer) and Mamizou who's quickly become one of my favourites.
Only complaint I have is not nearly enough training manuals to keep up with greater skill boosts and awakenings :/ (Though I guess it is somewhat farmable by killing Ame-no-Murakumo over and over again).
Also regarding the Ninja subclass, the piercing effect works differently from Piercing Attack right? So I can't just throw it on Rumia and pierce even more of the enemies mind.
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It's not the same as Piercing Attack, yeah. I don't think it would stack at all; if you want more mnd piercing you'll have to get Rumia's awakening. The subclass doesn't seem particularly good, since it provides a lot of small effects, but they're all... well, small. HOWEVER, I suppose, if you give it to a character that's very likely to have status effects on the enemy when you attack, all the passives combined could become good enough to consider it. It's attack isn't too shabby, but it does have a -very- high DEF influence to get in the way.
Instant Movement would be cool on some characters except it's not -that- much faster than a normal attack, and Elementalist has faster moves anyway with a more useful effect... sort of. 10% isn't much of a damage increase, but combined with the superfast cast speed (80% at lv5) it's something.
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So several months ago I've made a spreadsheet calculating WINNER's stats until 100 using the game database, and now decided to make it in Google sheets and expand it to 256 which is the max.
I used the sheets to calculate the defenses I need to survive his attacks, but after analyzing it can't be done in the MND department as his magical attacks all have high MAG multiplier, only affinities will save you.
Here's the sheets for you guys if you want it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jUdJkqq3TO57fHfLxoVEVbni7ToYnpvVPapGC2DMSi8/edit?usp=sharing
On another note I've been wanting to try beating WINNER with teams composed of the main games' featured characters, which are the bosses and the playable characters, including midbosses that appear (like Cirno in Perfect Cherry Blossom). Currently I'm considering EOSD team and the win counter is 2.
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Damage has a variance to it. It's applied after defense calculations so the "DEF/MND for 0 damage" column doesn't care about it, it does matter for having enough HP to survive his defense ignoring moves. Also Warsmith can potentially hit for higher than 1.2*ATK because he can buff his own ATK (can't do the same for MAG).
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That's rly helpful, thanks jester147. Also lol at those Sword of Light / Magical Tempest damage scores... I guess I was rly correct in saying you can't do this under level 2000, I imagine^^ (heck, I'm not even sure if it can be done under 3000, given that 255lvl WINNER does over 3 times the dmg of the 117lvl WINNER I'm currently on)
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(http://i.imgur.com/yz8FvcP.png)
I have no idea why my saves got corrupted but this is the second time this happened. Last time I had a backup but my most recent save as of right now is right after I beat the main game zzzz
Edit: God bless computer save points
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3peso's twitter stopped posting after 15 march. Let's just hope he's building up a new patch. :getdown: :getdown: :getdown:
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someone needs to send them some tweets asking whats up. we need those big updates :v
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dunno if it belongs here but.
does anyone at ALL know how to access the end 'translation files' that the eng patch for laby1 uses? like, to change basically any of the 'english text' that it 'patches in' ?
and second, is it possible that someone who knows the game or worked on its patch, to make the boss rush pull the enemy image from a diffrent image? them using the 'exact same enemy' image but having diffrent resistances/weakness is bothering me for what im working on. worst case will be 'change these files once you beat the main game' but thats....obnoxious X_X
Edit: im gonna guess the 3 .dif files are the actual translation. does anyone know how to open these?
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does anyone at ALL know how to access the end 'translation files' that the eng patch for laby1 uses? like, to change basically any of the 'english text' that it 'patches in' ?
Everything is stored in the executable.
Except the images.
and second, is it possible that someone who knows the game or worked on its patch, to make the boss rush pull the enemy image from a diffrent image? them using the 'exact same enemy' image but having diffrent resistances/weakness is bothering me for what im working on. worst case will be 'change these files once you beat the main game' but thats....obnoxious X_X
Possible but annoying.
Edit: im gonna guess the 3 .dif files are the actual translation. does anyone know how to open these?
They are diff files (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diff_utility). They contain all of the changes made to the executable and the imgX.dxa files. They're not translations by themselves, which is why it's safe to delete them after running patch.bat
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Hello. Approximately 4 years ago, I asked for input regarding a Labyrinth of Touhou 1 team I was going to play through the game with. I did not end up actually starting this playthrough due to other priorities at the time, but have still been keeping up with this thread and the Labyrinth of Touhou 2 updates every couple months. Recently, I decided to try Labyrinth of Touhou 2 and worked on constructing a theoretical team for end-game (not NG+, so it'll be a gradual goal). I have only played a little bit to make sure that Plus Disk was in working order, saved properly, didn't crash, etc, so my actual practical experience is nil. Without practical experience, I feel that my ability to accurately construct an end-game team is lacking. That will have to be something that will be worked on as I play through the game, but to begin with, I thought I would ask for input first.
The central idea I had was to build around Tenshi (out of the cast, Tenshi is the Touhou character I've grown to like the most, so this is the most important priority). Based on her skill set, Iku seems like a guaranteed character as well, and both characters would need to be on the frontline at once. Past that, every other character would be playing a supporting role in at least some manner, and I'd like to stick with just 12 characters (at least, once all 12 have been acquired, anyway). I've currently narrowed down the concept team to (in no particular order besides Tenshi/Iku)
Rinnosuke / Keine / Rin / Satori
Eirin / Reisen / Yukari / Eiki
Tenshi / Iku / Maribel / Miko
I'm pretty sure every character can be useful for the concept in some way, but the biggest question I have, and the biggest reason to have stopped me from playing until now (besides prioritizing other things) is the sheer variety of viable characters in the game making picking just 12 such a difficult endeavor, which makes me wonder whether or not I could do better than this. There's also some other questions I have regarding each character individually, and some characters I'm considering using instead of these.
Starting with Tenshi, I see that her role changes after Awakening, going from being (aside from her synergy skill with Iku) a purely defensive character to a character having good offensive presence provided some conditions are met (defensive buffs and being able to strike enemy weakness). The former seems easy enough with State of Enlightenment, provided the demerits are avoided (I'm unsure of the practicality of this due to not being able to find the status application formula, but if it's like LoT1, then it should be fine). The weakness thing seems a little trickier. While subclass spells provide her with a great deal of variety in elements to pick from and some useful passive buffs, I imagine not all bosses have weaknesses in the first place, and nothing can be done about that. So for those fights, the skill is useless. Since both Tenshi's offensive and defensive stats are boosted by striking weakness, it seems like the only other issue there is just maxing it out quickly for the fights it does work in. Beyond that, there's a concern of defense ignoring attacks (mainly the ones that are not intended to be survivable) and bosses that gradually become stronger over time, which counter long-play type styles. I don't think Tenshi can do anything about that stuff, so it would be necessary for the party to be able to make up for that shortcoming. Prior to Awakening, she seems like a pretty simplistic wall, nothing to really question about the usage of.
Since Tenshi receives some good buffs with Iku's presence, I figure Iku is basically a requirement for a Tenshi-centric team. Iku gets nice defensive bonuses with Tenshi's presence as well, so they both seem reasonably durable. Iku's potent offensive buffs seem like she would best fit as a buffing character with a defensive build. When she isn't buffing, she can reduce enemy DEF with her offensive spell cards. Besides that, I don't really see anything to comment about her, it's pretty straightforward and typical usage of her, I'd imagine. Only concern would be just how well she can tank hits and what kind of subclass to use (I have not really put any thought into subclasses for most characters, really).
From there, the rest is kind of just figuring what characters provide the most useful support with their personal skills. Yukari stood out quite strongly with Border of Power and Magic, as it lets Tenshi stack more in a single defense stat and still have the same defense in the other stat as if they were evenly split. This would be more important for Tenshi post-Awakening, due to ATK becoming an important stat. But taking advantage of this strategy would require Yukari on the front all the time for any boss that can target the weaker defense, which can be a severe handicap. Redistributing Tenshi's defenses can help against bosses that only target 1 defensive stat, which can help reduce the need for Yukari at the front, but mixed attackers would still complicate things. Besides Border of Power and Magic, Yukari has IN Quadruple Barrier to put defensive buffs on every character and keep Tenshi's topped without the need for repeated State of Enlightenment usage, and Manipulation of Boundaries applies a DEF debuff to enemies on each turn Yukari takes, which ensures that Yukari can always be useful regardless of the opponent's attack preferences. Besides all that, a defensive build for Yukari seems like the obvious choice.
Maribel, I'm mostly looking at her post-Awakening stuff, specifically Vision Sharing. One of the only bonuses that apply even in the backrow, so even if all that's done with her is maxing her buffs out and sticking her in the back, she can have a useful effect on the whole party (although perhaps it would be better to keep her in front for the full effect). Besides that, she also has Mari's DIY Novice Barrier, which, although I haven't found anything that specifies how the heal is calculated, is allegedly decent from the Wiki's comments on it, and it provides an attack boost. Both are nice effects, and rather importantly, this would be the only multi-target healing spell in the team prior to Rinnosuke's Awakening (which is very low priority). Maribel also has the same Manipulation of Boundaries Yukari has, and Chaotic Quadruple Barrier has a 100% SHK application rate. Somewhat importantly, I don't understand the difference between SHK (and DTH) strengths, if there is any. For other status effects, it indicates a duration, but as an instantaneous effect, I don't really see what SHK (100) and SHK (10000) would mean. I haven't decided what kind of build to use for Maribel, but seeing that Mari's DIY Novice Barrier appears to work off MAG and is not a set % heal, some investment in MAG would be important. Some investment in defensive stats would also probably be a good idea.
The idea I had with Eirin was that she could overheal Tenshi to act as a buffer against defense ignoring attacks (or anything Tenshi doesn't take 0s from really). She would naturally need to have Healer as a subclass, since Tenshi's low max HP makes Hourai Elixir comparatively less useful. Admittedly, that's about all she has going for her that made me think she would be better than other single-target healers, but it could be very useful for every character. I am wondering if there's a cap to how much Healing Touch can overheal a character, since I haven't seen one mentioned by either the EN or JP wiki. It would have a lot of potential to be pretty broken with sufficient investment in Eirin's healing, so I imagine there is one, but isn't mentioned. For her build, I'm thinking investing in MAG enough to get a good overheal, and then the rest in defensive stats. Another thing is that, according to the JP wiki, HVY (which Astronomical Entombing applies at 20000 strength w/ 100% rate) reduces enemy DEF by 50% and SPD by 12%, which sounds way too strong. But also according to the JP wiki's page on status effects, SIL on enemies reduces MND by 50% and MAG by 12%, while I read in this thread that SIL reduces those stats by something like 8% each, which sounds much more realistic. Either way, I think Eirin is useful, if HVY is as strong as the JP wiki says then that's just a really nice bonus.
With Satori, there's naturally her Spell Card Recollection, which would allow doubling up on any support skill from the front (which opens up the possibility of things like using two different buffs from the same character, using buffs a character doesn't have time/MP to spare, extra attempts at Sword of Hisou, etc), but also Trauma Recollection for the +24% damage boost on striking elemental weaknesses. That one will only be really useful for Tenshi post-Awakening, but prior to that, it can still be useful for other characters, and Spell Card Recollection seems like a really versatile skill. My main concern with Satori is whether or not it'll be possible to make as much use of Spell Card Recollection as I think, plus her defenses. While she has excellent HP, her DEF/MND stats are very low, which can be problematic for a defensive strategy.
Reisen seems like the game's best debuffer overall, with Intense Vertigo enabling status application even on a target normally immune to the status, as well as making it easier for every character to apply debuffs, which is very handy when almost every character in the team is capable of debuffing or inflicting status. On top of that, there's Discarder for debuffing every stat, which is probably what Reisen will be doing most of the time. Although not useful to Tenshi, Reisen also packs a strong MND debuff with Lunatic Red Eyes and her passive Broad Mind Modulation, which can help most other characters deal damage, since the non-Tenshi members mostly target MND for their offensive actions. Reisen also has Wavelength of Insanity to reduce MYS damage by up to 30%, but it seems like it would only be useful against a target that uses MYS attacks (almost) exclusively, and I'm unsure of Reisen's own durability, as her defensive stats appear to be fairly average. Don't really know how to build her specifically, she probably wants MAG and defensive I guess.
Eiki I'm a bit more unsure about compared to the others so far (and that goes moreso for each following character). While she has nice debuffing attacks in the form of Trial of the Ten Kings and Wandering Sin, Reisen can already do something similar to the former with Discarder, and the latter appears to be mostly weak status effects. But she can attack alongside Reisen to benefit from Intense Vertigo, so the attacks seem OK...but I can't help but wonder if simply going for Last Judgment would be the superior, if boring, option. Besides that, she has Cleansed Crystal Mirror to provide a 10% elemental damage reduction, which works from the back post-Awakening...but that effect is kind of small. But since it works even in the back post-Awakening, I guess it's worthwhile, and Eiki herself seems like a good character to have on the front until then anyway. Like Reisen, her defensive stats don't really seem that great, but since she has Cleansed Crystal Mirror, she has an innate damage reduction in effect, so I'm thinking she can be built defensively and either use Last Judgment for defense ignoring damage or debuff with her other spell cards.
Miko seems strictly useful for this kind of team only post-Awakening, and even then, I'm not really sure what to do with her. Since Crown Prince's Teachings works in the back, I figure just having her there is enough to be worthwhile (since not many effects work from the back), but if it's not useful enough, then replacing her is probably a good idea. Most of the buffs that the team is capable of applying is only 1-2 stats, and usually in large numbers, so I'm a bit unsure of the usefulness of the skill, but it's hard to find something that's definitely more useful, and something like a Monk subclass for the 4% buff to all stats per turn would benefit greatly from the effect. Miko herself seems like a very strong character, with the ability to increase her buff cap, double the stat bonuses of equipment, and Halo of the Guse Cannon's high power, but none of that helps other characters, and there are a lot of other more useful Awakening skills to be acquired first. Probably the most likely candidate as a secondary attacker, with a bulky MAG build. Her heal seems pretty gimmicky (and it's bugged?), and since it's way weaker than what Eirin can do (and can't overheal) and isn't multi-target like what Maribel can do, I just wrote it off.
Rin is mostly because of Extra Attack and Cat's Walk for multiple SHK attempts, but I'm thinking maybe Yuyuko would be better for damaging a target's ATB. Rin is faster and gets more attempts at inflicting the more potent SHK effect, but only works on SHK-susceptible targets. Yuyuko is slower and doesn't have minimal delays on her ATB reducing attacks, but they cannot be resisted. Between the two, I thought Rin would be more useful due to such a strategy being more valuable against bosses that require their number of actions to be minimized, but depending on how Maribel's 100% rate SHK attack compares to Cat's Walk, Rin may be redundant for SHK. If Maribel is already effective enough, swapping Rin for Aya to get extra turns using Sarutahiko's Guidance may be more effective at ATB reduction than adding Yuyuko. But that relies on the target being susceptible to SHK in the first place, too. Yuyuko would be the only viable character for ATB reduction in that context.
Rinnosuke and Keine are basically there because I couldn't think of any characters that would be more generally useful. Both of them do a lot of small things at once. Rinnosuke has a minor ATK/MAG debuff per turn on enemies, is capable of a small buff to all stats (which pairs well with Miko's Awakening skill, although Rinnosuke's own Awakening pairs well with Miko's Awakening skill too...but having them both is fairly unlikely), and has Effective Formation Change (and seemed like the most useful character with it), plus his Awakening stuff which is just full support. Keine is one of the few characters that has a party-wide ATK/MAG buff, boosts the party's MND every turn she takes, and has a party-wide DEF/MND buff that's weaker but has less delay than IN Quadruple Barrier. Keine also has fairly decent defensive stats and skills, so she can hold her own in that regard as well. The main problem with these two that I have is that everything Rinnosuke does is kind of...small (hard to be sure if he's worth using over other characters), and Keine doesn't really do anything that isn't already done by other characters (although Iku has single target ATK/MAG buffs, not everyone needs them, while Yukari can already buff DEF/MND for the party). Along with Rin, they're the most uncertain and replaceable characters, I think.
That's what I'm thinking for the 12 characters I'm currently planning on using. Some of the other characters that I was thinking about would include
-Kogasa, who seemed like the most useful user of Sheer Force for debuffing and status. If I understand correctly, along with Reisen, a 100 ailment resistance would be 100 * 0.8 (80) with Intense Vertigo, and a further * 0.66 with Sheer Force, which would be 52.8. The main problem I see is the lack of anything especially useful to do with such a thorough reduction in resistance. Kogasa can mainly apply TRR and subclass spells, which are mostly small effects.
-Cirno, for being able to apply some pretty significant SPD debuffs. There are already a few characters that apply SPD debuffs, but they're a lot weaker. This has more to do with those bosses where preventing them from taking turns is a huge priority, but there's also SHK and Yuyuko to do that, so it's questionable Cirno is worth it.
-Aya, who would bring some speed-based options into the party with things like Divine Grandson's Advent and her party-wide speed buff when she takes a turn. Her single target speed buff isn't as useful as it could be when Iku has a stronger one (if the demerits can be avoided), but Divine Grandson's Advent is the only ATB filling spell card that has no real disadvantage and can be very versatile. Probably should replace one of the cast members I was thinking of using, since she does offer something new and useful.
-Sanae, with Miracle Fruit being a fairly potent single target buff for all stats. She has a strong single target heal, but I'd rather have Eirin handle those...so that makes Miracle Fruit the main thing she has going for her.
-Yuyuko, strictly for ATB reduction. I don't think she has anything else really going for her, but guaranteed ATB reduction is a pretty unique and useful effect, enough to be a serious consideration.
Of course, if there's a character that would be recommended for further consideration, that would be a welcome suggestion. Likewise, since I haven't really looked into subclasses much (moreso what to put on a character than what each subclass does, I do know that at least), input on that would be much appreciated.
Since that whole thing was pretty tl;dr, there were some questions I wanted to bring specific focus on.
-Is there a cap on Eirin's Healing Touch? If so, and if the exact number is known, what is it?
-What is the difference between different strengths of SHK and DTH? For example, Rin's Cat's Walk is listed as 10000 SHK, and Maribel's Chaotic Quadruple Barrier is listed as 100 SHK. Why is that?
-The JP wiki lists HVY as a -12% SPD, -50% DEF debuff, and SIL as a -12% MAG, -50% MND debuff (when applied to enemies, that is). Is this information incorrect?
With all that said, thank you for your time reading this excessively wordy, attention demanding, embarrassingly ignorant post. I know it was way more than what the average person writes or asks about here, terribly sorry about that.
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As far as I know healing touch is only capped by Eirin's capability to heal. The healer subclass's heal did get nerfed by ~40% between the plus disk but she should still be able to at least triple Tenshi's HP with some buffs behind her.
SHK and DTH strength don't matter as far as I know (since they're both instantaneous). I have no idea why it's labelled as 10000 for Cat's Walk.
No idea about exact HVY/SIL, though I'm pretty sure it's way more than 8%.
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I'm currently using Rin and Satori in my current playthrough and I would say Satori is pretty lackluster overall, she can be a decent HP sponge/support with Spellcard Recollection but there are simply better choices; Rin's SHK is not very reliable since the proc chance is low, the number of actual bosses you'll be able to shock-lock or significantly slow down through her Cat's Walk is not big enough to consider using her just for that; she is really good at clearing random encounters with Former Hell's needle Hill (warrior's ATK buff+row spellcard enhance+DEF debuff+buffs from corpse carrier on kill+extra attack), but is usually only so-so in bosses.
Rinnosuke is decent thanks to low delay spellcards and a bunch of useful passive effects but personally I feel that there are other characters that can buff/heal better than him while being tankier; his main gimmick would be his passive stat increases, with enough investment he can have the highest added stats of any character, but we are talking about absolutely insane amounts of skill points, both main game/plus disc wise.
Technically speaking, Hina is the game's best debuffer as long as you can avoid Misfortune God's Biorrythm from affecting your own front line, which isn't terribly hard to do, early game you can equip 3 characters with DBF resistance items and only debuff when those characters are out and later Hina can learn her DBF protecting/reducing passive both from her own skillset or from the hexer subclass, this is usually enough to avoid any kind of backlash from using it.
Reisen is good as a jack-of-all-trades mage, with Grand Patriot's Elixir's buffs she can inflict decent single target dmg with Discarder (while debuffing at the same time) or all target with Lunatic Red Eyes and Mind Starmine; her buffed defenses aren't too bad either and she's pretty quick as well; reducing enemy resistances is also very useful when used in tandem with characters that focus on inflicting them (for example you can put Aya, Reisen and Yuyuko together to form a frontline that can easily inflicting DTH on all enemies before they even get a turn). Her main drawback is MP consumption because she'll constantly be spamming her elixir, she also randomly loses 1 MP on turn because of People of the Moon.
Yuyuko is a decent tanky mage (Deathly Swallowtail Lance has a pretty good formula), her main weakness is how slow she is, her ATB reducing effects are nice but it's more of an add on than anything else, I would say it's not powerful enough to base her whole role in your party on that.
Mari has the strongest SHK effect among the cast I believe and it's way easier to lock enemies with her than with Rin (as long as you have someone switching her in and out to quickly refill her ATB), you may consider using Renko if you're going to use her (she's one of the best buffers in the game imo) since their synergy skill is really powerful.
Eiki should be mainly used because of the defense ignoring nuke Last Judgement, the rest of her spellcards are usually only good for random encounters.
Keine is a really good buffer, while she can't buff SPD, she can quickly, and for a low MP cost, constatly buff your party's DEF,MND,ATK and MAG while increasing her own stats to be able to either inflict slight amounts of dmg or become really tanky; she also has some useful passives (particularly the 9999 switch post-awakening).
Aya is overall a really good support character thanks to her high SPD, the passive SPD buff she applies to the whole frontline and Divine Grandson's Awakening, she's a bit squishy, but has good evade (even moreso post-awakening).
Cirno is unique in that once she awakens her SPD debuffs can bypass enemy resistances, no matter how immune the enemy is to SPD debuffs, she'll always be able to apply them (albeit at reduced effectiveness), so it can be worth it to bring her along.
Kogasa, as with all ailment-centric characters, is very good against enemies who she can inflict TRR on (since she gives herself and your frontline some useful bonuses, including healing) but average on enemies that are immune to it, imo subclass ailment inflicting spellcards aren't good enough to bother with them most of the time.
I would say you don't really need Sanae as long as you have Eirin, one healer should be enough and I wouldn't say Miracle Fruit alone is a valid reason to include her, she does have very useful passives though (TP recovery and MP recovery post-awakening).
It's worth noting that thanks to Keypoints of Defense, Tenshi can permanently keep a DEF and MND buff on your whole frontline, just have her act as a pure switcher, this allows her to quickly get turns while constantly increasing your party's DEF and MND, even moreso with the Strategist subclass' buff decay reduction, I don't remember the exact number but I'm pretty sure she can keep the whole frontline at about +60% as long as she keeps switching. ( you can speed the process up with someone that can buff your frontline's DEF and MND like Yukari, Reimu or Keine).
Iku can be a decent Wind elemental magician if you build her offensively, it's mainly useful against enemies who are weak to WND, since her ability to double MND debuffs allows her to inflict large dmg with Elekiter Dragon Palace; you usually want to build her as an Enhancer buffer, where she can buff offensive stats with Thundercloud Stickleback and defensive ones with An Ounce of Prevention, Whiskers of the Dragon God is only useful on characters that are outright immune to the DEF and MND debuffs or that have Flexibility (like Iku herself) since it reverses the effects of DEF and MND debuffs into buffs. There's also the basic attack build that is mentioned on the wiki.
-Recommendations:
Kaguya can be good if you plan on using Eirin since their synergy will increase her defenses and her MAG to overheal more, Kaguya is also a pretty powerful magic glasscannon.
Mokou can be decent because of synergy with Keinen, her revive gimmick can be useful in certain situations.
Any of the 3 Devas of Mt Ooe are pretty good since they're both quite tanky and can inflict good physical dmg. On the other hand, if you want magic bruisers, you have Yuuka or Kanako.
Reimu or Rumia might be good to provide more powerful multi-target healing; Reimu can also buff and increase SPD post-awakening; Rumia is a pretty powerful squishy mage.
Nitori or Momiji might be good as well since they have synergy with Hina and Aya and are overall really good characters with Nitori being relativelly versatile thanks to Maintenance and Momiji just plain being a pretty good physical bruiser able to take hits and deal some decent dmg back.
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Yuyuko is a decent tanky mage (Deathly Swallowtail Lance has a pretty good formula), her main weakness is how slow she is, her ATB reducing effects are nice but it's more of an add on than anything else, I would say it's not powerful enough to base her whole role in your party on that.
Iku can be a decent Wind elemental magician if you build her offensively, it's mainly useful against enemies who are weak to WND, since her ability to double MND debuffs allows her to inflict large dmg with Elekiter Dragon Palace; you usually want to build her as an Enhancer buffer, where she can buff offensive stats with Thundercloud Stickleback and defensive ones with An Ounce of Prevention, Whiskers of the Dragon God is only useful on characters that are outright immune to the DEF and MND debuffs or that have Flexibility (like Iku herself) since it reverses the effects of DEF and MND debuffs into buffs. There's also the basic attack build that is mentioned on the wiki.
Yuyuko looked really exciting on paper, but in practice I found her a lot less exciting. Her lack of damage increase passives or things along those lines, along with her high cost library, actually makes her damage a lot lower than I thought it would be... even with her seemingly powerful moveset. Every boss I think "great, now to bring Yuyuko out and- oh wow she's actually not very useful in this fight...". As for Iku, she's actually really effective in that normal attack build, imo, and the heavy amount of mnd piercing is sweet (whether normal attacks or not- but she easily gets 90%+ ignore on normals). Since you want her synergy with Tenshi you might want a tankier Iku built for support though? Generally I think support-Iku is actually not worth the awkwardness in LoT2 with all the other options you have for buffing instead, but if you want the Tenshi synergy, it's on the table.
Kogasa is a great SHK option as guardian when you need that for a boss (it's surprising high SHK proc, and then sheer force...) , to help out "but I can't TRR this well" problems- overall she's a little awkward until she Awakens. I think she's got amazing potential as a party regen tank after that, but I can only say so much without real field testing for that, and you can only awaken a few characters until mega-endgame.
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As far as I know healing touch is only capped by Eirin's capability to heal. The healer subclass's heal did get nerfed by ~40% between the plus disk but she should still be able to at least triple Tenshi's HP with some buffs behind her.
SHK and DTH strength don't matter as far as I know (since they're both instantaneous). I have no idea why it's labelled as 10000 for Cat's Walk.
No idea about exact HVY/SIL, though I'm pretty sure it's way more than 8%.
Ah, thanks, that's good to know. Are the current stats of 60% ATK + 60% MAG on the Wiki page for Healer's Prayer of Recovery the Plus Disk stats then? If so, that seems good enough, especially if it can overheal to that kind of extent. Unless that has more to do with how low Tenshi's max HP is, but either way, it sounds like Eirin would definitely be very helpful to have. The SHK/DTH thing I kinda figured, but wanted to be 100% sure on.
Went back to double check about the SIL thing I read, this is the stat debuff mentioned.
Mystia... I always thought the only truly useful thing she brought to the table was Extra Attack, and somewhat the fact that she gets a 120% chance SIL skill (although SIL is mostly only useful to trigger her stat boost passive and stuff like Final Attack; 5% lower mag/mnd is pretty minor.
It seems weak, but at the same time, the 5% stat debuff that PSN inflicts mentioned in the same post is left unmentioned in the JP wiki, either through omission or because it's unknown, so I can't exactly trust it blindly either. I guess just messing around with HVY and SIL and seeing what kind of numbers result from it would be a good idea, just to be sure.
*Snipped for length*
Sounds like I should skip Rin and Satori then. If Rin isn't worth using for SHK alone, and Maribel does the job fine with support, then another character performing a different role would be more useful. I think I also place too much value on Satori's Trauma Recollection, besides that she wouldn't be adding anything to the team due to only having spell cards other characters use, which isn't bad, but probably would be better to replace her with someone else. Might apply to Rinnosuke as well, in that he may not be justifiable compared to other characters.
Hina does look like a really strong debuffer, but if I'm going to use Reisen, it seems a little redundant to also use Hina, so I'm not sure if she'd be worth using over another character that offers something different. Reisen seems really solid and versatile, especially with Intense Vertigo, so between the two, Reisen seems like the more generally useful.
Based on what's been said about Yuyuko, sounds like I should skip considering her if the ATB reduction isn't as useful as I had initially thought. Something that would be more generally useful and reliable would be preferable then.
Renko seems really difficult to use in combination with Eirin, since Charge would reduce the overheals, so I'm not sure about it. I guess it would be fine if no character is overhealed, but it seems a little complicated nonetheless. Something more versatile may be more useful.
So I should focus more on Last Judgment with Eiki when she's out, and probably keep Keine then. Keine would help make it easier to keep ATK/MAG buffs up without relying on Iku, so there's definitely a useful, distinct role she can play in that regard. Keine's defensive skills look really interesting and useful (especially History Accumulation), it looks like I can expect her to be able to hold her own defensively and as a support character.
I think I'll add Aya into the team then, the speed-oriented support would certainly be valuable. One thing in particular I'm thinking about is that, post-Awakening, for bosses that Tenshi can strike weaknesses on to trigger Keypoints of Spirit, it would probably be ideal to max out her counters as quickly as possible, especially if it's necessary to use a weak subclass spell. Aya would be very helpful for this, in addition to all the general uses speed buffs and extra turns can get. The poor defenses are a bit of a concern, but it's not like any other character can play quite the same role that Aya can.
With the empty slots and the ATB reduction niches being narrowed out, Cirno looks like she'd definitely be more useful than I initially anticipated. Going to have to more seriously consider adding her then, she might be worth the party slot. My main concern is how weak her speed debuffs are on targets immune to them even with her irresistable debuffs. 1/5th of 44% on Icicle Fall is only 8.8% (I assume it's rounded down to 8%?). But stacking that might actually make a big difference, especially if that's the only way to affect the target's ATB.
Kogasa's usefulness seems really difficult to measure, but the full team heal against TRR'd targets is very strong. If nothing else, she's fairly unique, so I'll have to keep her in mind.
Think I'll skip on Sanae then. The other thing that really stood out was that she can buff SPI damage by 30%, and Tenshi's Sword of Hisou is quite strong and SPI element, but I don't think that's quite enough to be worth using either.
Tenshi's Keystone Formation skill looks really valuable pre-Awakening, but post-Awakening, I think it would be better for her to spend her turns either building up Keypoints of Spirit counters on bosses with weaknesses she can hit, or just attacking in general. Since switching rapidly would remove counters and reduce her offensive buffs, it would make taking advantage of her offensive capabilities more difficult. Though, making use of Keystone Formation looks to be the most useful thing she can do prior to Awakening, generally speaking.
Hmm, Enhancer looks like a good subclass for Iku, yeah. With maxed out Enhanced Buffing, that would be 84% ATK/MAG on a maxed out Thundercloud Stickleback, and 48% DEF/MND for An Ounce of Prevention (although, the DEF/MND buffs seems small compared to what Reimu and Yukari can do with their Barrier spell cards). I'm going to have to play around with her and see how durable she is with Tenshi's presence to be able to determine whether she can afford some MAG investment or not. Elekiter Dragon Palace's DEF debuff alone makes it pretty nice looking for when Iku doesn't need to buff, being able to do good damage with it would be very nice. If protecting against the drawback of Whiskers of the Dragon God is unviable for most of the party members, then Aya will be able to perform more of a role than I initially thought, which is good.
Regarding the recommendations, Kaguya's Awakening skill that enables allies to ignore 25% of a target's defense stat looked really interesting, but she seems squishy and doesn't really offer anything else besides personal damage output. There is the synergy skill, but Reisen can do that too, and while it'd be strongest with Kaguya too, I don't think that's enough to be worth the character slot.
Next to Kogasa, Mokou came off as the most useful user of Sheer Force (assuming Awakening though), since she can apply ATK/MAG debuffs. But Reisen can apply debuffs to all stats at a stronger magnitude, along with all the other things she can do, and the rest of Mokou's skills are for herself (besides Blazing), and the way I want to use Keine wouldn't be able to take advantage of the synergy skill, since Keine gets ATK/MAG buffs.
For bulky damage output, I think I'd like to focus more on characters that are capable of dealing in support as well. Of the five mentioned, Suika came off as the most interesting, since she could apply PAR whenever she took a turn and had some decent debuffing attacks (although probably Suika would be doing direct attacks instead). Fog Labyrinth boosting EVA by 20% would also be a uniquely useful support skill, if it weren't for Tenshi having an EVA of 1. It might be helpful for the dodgier characters like Aya though. The rest seem more straightforward in that they mostly support themselves, which I think isn't too helpful for this. Though it would be important if, regardless of preparations taken, the damage output just isn't good enough to beat bosses that strengthen themselves over time or use overkill defense ignoring attacks. I think characters like Iku, Eiki, and Miko might be able to handle this, but if they can't, then a more straightforward damage dealer might be important after all.
I think I'll put Reimu in one of the empty slots taken out so far, she looks really useful. One thing I'm thinking of doing with Reimu in is taking Yukari out, since IN Quadruple Barrier becomes a little redundant, and I think I've overestimated how useful Border of Power and Magic can be. It might be better to just split Tenshi's defenses and not worry about stacking as much ATK as possible. This would allow the most stable defense and allow more versatility. I may be overlooking how useful Yukari's Spiriting Away can be though. It doesn't seem like the kind of spell card you can just use without a goal built around it, and I don't see it being especially useful for this party structure outside of attempting to SHK lock a boss or something (Yukari + Maribel + Aya I guess?). Rumia also looks interesting, her Awakening skill that grants debuffs to Moonlight Ray and Dark Side of the Moon sounds like it has a lot of potential, but without knowing the strength and application rates of the effects, it's hard to ascertain the value properly, so I don't know if she'd be a good fit or not.
Lastly, Nitori and Momiji...I don't think they really offer anything new in particular, besides Nitori's Super Scope 3D being much more damaging than what any of the other characters are capable of. Since the synergy skill only works on the front, and I'd prefer to have Tenshi and Iku in the front as much as possible, that leaves only 1 other slot if Aya's up. If I were to take advantage of the skill, having just 1 of the other members would probably be best. Of the three other characters in the synergy, Hina seems like the most useful. Having Aya grant Hina extra turns to rapidly debuff a target doesn't seem like a bad idea actually, provided that it doesn't have 100 in anything (otherwise Reisen would be more useful)...which sounds really unlikely, actually...
Yuyuko looked really exciting on paper, but in practice I found her a lot less exciting. Her lack of damage increase passives or things along those lines, along with her high cost library, actually makes her damage a lot lower than I thought it would be... even with her seemingly powerful moveset. Every boss I think "great, now to bring Yuyuko out and- oh wow she's actually not very useful in this fight...". As for Iku, she's actually really effective in that normal attack build, imo, and the heavy amount of mnd piercing is sweet (whether normal attacks or not- but she easily gets 90%+ ignore on normals). Since you want her synergy with Tenshi you might want a tankier Iku built for support though? Generally I think support-Iku is actually not worth the awkwardness in LoT2 with all the other options you have for buffing instead, but if you want the Tenshi synergy, it's on the table.
Kogasa is a great SHK option as guardian when you need that for a boss (it's surprising high SHK proc, and then sheer force...) , to help out "but I can't TRR this well" problems- overall she's a little awkward until she Awakens. I think she's got amazing potential as a party regen tank after that, but I can only say so much without real field testing for that, and you can only awaken a few characters until mega-endgame.
By the sounds of it, instead of having Iku as support with Thundercloud Stickleback, it would be better to have her play as a bulky attacker and have a different character like Keine handle ATK/MAG buffing, except for characters that can or have to resist the PAR effect. Tenshi's State of Enlightenment has a 96% PAR rate at level 5, so that probably warrants PAR resistant equipment, at least for post-Awakening. Actually, having Iku as a bulky attacker sounds like a better idea in general to be honest, and certainly more interesting than pure support.
Shield Bash + Sheer Force does look like it has a lot of potential for SHK shenanigans, that seems to be the most useful thing for status that Sheer Force brings to the table. Between that and the TRR stuff Kogasa brings, she looks like she could be really interesting, plus all the skills that benefit her personally. Astonishing Ghost Umbrella in particular is amazing defensively, with that -40% damage reduction against TRR'd enemies. When I first read the skill's effect I misunderstood it to work on everyone, not just Kogasa.
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So looking over everything, from the original team I had in mind,
Rinnosuke / Keine / Rin / Satori
Eirin / Reisen / Yukari / Eiki
Tenshi / Iku / Maribel / Miko
Remove Rin, Rinnosuke, Satori, and Yukari (-4)
Add Reimu and Aya (+2)
Then from there, the most interesting characters so far are
Cirno (SPD debuffs)
Kogasa (TRR, Sheer Force, HP regen every turn)
Suika (60% PAR attempt every turn, passive EVA buff)
Rumia (post-Awakening status and debuffs, party-wide heal)
Of those...Cirno and Kogasa seem like they might be most useful. Besides the option of Shield Bash backed by Sheer Force, if Kogasa can TRR something post-Awakening, that's a huge HP regen every turn, and Cirno provides a way to slow down bosses that are immune to SHK, probably better for this than Yuyuko is. These are more specialized uses, but I think general use has already been accounted for well enough.
That's what I'm currently thinking of, anyway, might need to make further revisions. Thanks for all the input so far, it's been very helpful!
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The 60%(ATK+MAG) is the older formula. The new one is close to around 35% from my limited observations.
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Question: if the rest of the content for the Plus Disk hasn't been released yet, does that mean there are still characters who haven't been added yet or is this an exhaustive list of all the Plus Disk characters: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_7 ?
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Right now it's exhaustive, though I haven't gotten around to add awakening skills for them yet.
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It's pretty safe to say there won't be any more character additions, imo. The last one is already recruited after beating the final plot boss of Plus Disk and screams goofy postgame bonus character, and the characters have always been in sets of 8.
Oh, I should add in the portraits for the last few characters on the wiki, I'd honestly kind of forgotten after the patch never ended up coming out. Thanks for the doing the last few characters, RegalStar!
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Quick question - how much is item drop rate important in the Plus Disk? I'm asking this because I'm considering whether I should employ the Youkai Mountain Alliance (Nitori, Momiji, Aya, Hina) or not, primarily because of Nitori's massive bonus to item drop rates (I know Nazrin, Rinnosuke, and Shou all give similar boosts, but they're nowhere as powerful or usable I believe)
My doubts raise from the consideration that, while item drop rate is not that big of a deal in Touhou Labyrinth 2 pre-Plus Disk (with exp and gems being the primary means to level up, and item drops only granting a negligible boost to earned money), in TH1 item drops were much more important (most of the skill points you get while training from WINNER come from Machine God Lucifer drops).
Now, unless the Plus Disk changed mechanics somehow, in TH2 the sell price of items does not ramp up like in TH1, and from what I understand the gem system in the Eternal Corridor does not depend on item droprates... but maybe I'm missing some way in which item drop may be relevant? Please note that for my the answer to my question I'm solely concerned with the actual end-game - even if mobs on Plus Disk floors can drop powerful items, as long as this is not something which eventually matters in the Eternal Corridor (which I take it's this game's equivalent to WINNER in TH1) I don't really care.
Thank you for your concern.
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Nitori's item drop boost is fairly significant, but Nazrin's is no joke either considering it DOESN'T get weaker in the back (where Nitori's is completely disabled) along with her double drop attack, and if you do employ Shou she's got pretty hefty bonuses as well post-awakening (+15% drops in addition to +40% on treasure gun kills). Nitori does win out on ease of use though; you really don't need the Alliance for her to be a wonderful team addition, and she's got a heavy nuke for the kill. Meanwhile Shou is kind of bad until she Awakens (not that Nitori has -any- drop increase until then...) and still kind of wants several other people in your team for hefty synergy bonuses. (Her new Awakening skill that got patched in later helps with her attack power by starting her with Rage counts, at least. Inconsistent, but helpful.)
Although amusingly, I realize all the people Shou synergizes with are the people with drop rate bonuses.
By the way, people won't -really- be able to answer your question because the corridor currently ends at ~100f out of 999 floors, and the several postgame Plus Disk floors are all also unimplemented. But it's pretty safe to guess there's sweet drops on the last floors like there usually is. Some of the later floors already have enemies dropping gems for... I think hp/mp/tp? At least two out of three. The drop rate isn't even abysmal.
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Are these hp/mp/tp etc. gems only needed in limited quantity, like the gems pre-plus-disc, or the more the better? Because if so, it would appear that a proper endgame party has little reason not to include as many item drop boosters as possible (perhaps even going for the full Rinnosuke/Nazrin/Nitori/Shou "playset"). It sorta saddens me, because I'd have to give up one of Reimu/Byakuren/Sanae/Renko/Maribel/Miko/Yuuka/Kanako/Suwako, and they all are awesome one way or the other...
So, let's see... as far as I can tell, these are each character's item drop ability:
Rinnosuke:
Gensokyo's Shopkeeper 10 1 Increase item drop rate by (SLv * 4)%. Only works if he's in the party. Effect is reduced if Rinnosuke is in the back row.
Nitori:
(Awakening only) Kappa's Material Aesthetica 1 75 If the user is in the front at the end of battle, increase item drop rate by 20%. Additionally, if the user defeats an enemy, that enemy's item drop rate is increased by 40%.
Nazrin:
Rare Metal Detector 3 Enemy (One) Wind 196% MAG - 70% T.MND If this spellcard defeats an enemy,
its item drop rate is doubled 68% Low delay
Dowsing 1 12 Increases item drop rates by 20%.
Shou:
Radiant Treasure Gun 5 Enemy (All) Spirit 140% ATK(?) - 70% T.DEF(?) ACC +4
Increase EXP/Drop/Gold 44% 1.25x Bonus on Kill
Rinnosuke is by far the best, since it gives a 40% boost regardless of who kills the enemies and, as you noted, it still gives a 20% boost even from the backlines. Now, out of the other three... only Nitori and Nazrin give a passive boost like Rinnosuke, though it's only 20% (does Nazrin's boost work from the backlines? It doesn't say but it'd be pretty important to know). Shou has Radiant Treasure Gun, which is also good on its own, but you must choose between that and Rare Metal Detector, which while only hitting one target, gives a much bigger item drop boost and can be "chained" if it's a OHKO.
All in all, I'd say that Shou is the one to drop here, because if you're killing enemies with Nazrin, then Shou gives basically no item drop boost whatsoever. And by using Rinnosuke/Nitori/Nazrin together, you can reach a massive 80% item drop boost (180% if Nazrin does the kill, 100% if Nitori does the kill). Ofc they are somewhat lacking in power, but eventually you should get to the point where the "training fodder" dies to just about anything you do, like in TH1 (For a comparison, in my TH1 run, I can now 2-shot Serpent of Chaos with an unboosted Lavatein, almost 100% of the time). There's always the issue that you first need to get to that level, first (which involves awakening Nitori, too), but until then, you can still rely on Rinnosuke's boost (and maybe Nazrin's too?) working from the backlines as well, while the Moriya family or the Sealing Club duo mow down random encounters until the item finders can take them on themselves.
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You missed Shou's passive; it gives 10% item drop boost. Awakening boosts it to 15%. Awakening also boosts Treasure Gun to 40% on kill instead of 25%. Shou also has good synergies with Rinno/Nazrin, the other drop boosters. However, Shou isn't terribly useful until post-awakening. Nazrin's awakening literally doubles her damage (and she needs it) so she's sorta also in there, and then Nitori has -no- boost until awakening... party design is hard.
Gems are still limited to 10. There's "orbs" to go from 10 to 20, but those aren't the drop.
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Hi, I have another question. Regarding Rumia's Awakening skill that grants Moonlight Ray and Dark Side of the Moon the ability to apply all status/debuffs respectively, are the strengths of these effects and the % rate that they're applied known?
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Yeah I missed Ability to Gather Treasures... Well, then it would appear Nitori has to go, since while Nitori gives +20% Item drop instead of +15%, Shou also gives a boost to Exp and gold. On the other hand, though, if the best items are still obtained through infinity gems, and if infinity gems only drop from chests and not enemies, then an increased drop chance is not that important in the long run... right? (Maybe one could keep Shou alone, for the xp and gold boost from Treasure Gun, but the other three can go)
EDIT: Also I think somebody mentioned it some months ago but... how to get Japanese characters to appear in-game? I only see little squares, as if I lacked the proper font...
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I'm assuming you're running jp locale already? I dunno, as I don't have the problem. I'm in win7 running in jp locale.
No one can say about items, since we don't know what the last few non-infinite floors will have. It's possible. I can't imagine the final floor drops not being sort of like Thlaby1's though. The infinite shop does have good gear and the chests can certainly drop it too, but it's likely mostly on the same level, apart from the obvious god-grade equips that take a bajillion seven star dust.
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So basically, everytime I play TH2 Plus I have to switch to JP locale? I can't keep JP for it and Eng for the rest of Windows? That's a bit annoying but ok^^
As for items, I guess that since unlike TH1 we have Tomes of Reincarnation, here, the problem is not especially pressing. For now, I think the best thing to do is just to build a solid all around group of pre-Plus Disk characters, and then replace whatever I need as I progress through.
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I mean, I just leave jp locale on and I next to never see a jp symbol anywhere else in windows. It's not really a problem.
It's not as though it's set to your main windows function and all your windows programs turn japanese, if you were worried about that.
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http://pooi.moe/Locale-Emulator/
Just use this. It lets you right click and run things as any number of locales, including Japanese, without having to change your computer's locale every time you want to run a game in JP. This is a preferable solution as otherwise several installers from big name companies will default to japanese, which is a huge pain in the ass.
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Thank you for your help - turned out that just changing to Jp locale was enough :-)
Now to grind back to the final boss (I decided to start over because I spent too many Tomes of Reincarnation in the previous save), with the following team:
Renko/Yuuka/Alice/Maribel
Sanae/Reimu/Suwako/Kanako
Ran/Yukari/Marisa/Chen
Seems to go well so far, I'll see if there are any Plus Disk characters to replace the ones I'm using atm (maybe Miko, almost surely Shou eventually, but we'll see). For now, I wanted primarily a team which can clean up random encounters well enough, while not being a sitting duck against bosses - though the Renko/Yuuka/Alice/Maribel lineup is not as efficient as the other two in terms of clearing randoms, it's possibly the best of the three in terms of boss clearing (especially Renko/Yuuka/Maribel). As far as subclasses I was thinking of the following:
Line 1
Renko: Strategist (To make Charge, Majesty, and Overflowing Unnatural Power last longer, as well as general buffing for line 1)
Yuuka: Sorcerer -> Archmage -> WINNER (To abuse Yuuka's superb mixed offenses, and give her more diversity in terms of offensive spells)
Alice: Sorcerer (To increase Alice's magic power, as well as powering up Hanged Hourai Doll)
Maribel: Sorcerer (To increase Maribel's magical power - still a bit undecided between Sorc and Transcendent on Mari, since she lacks good row attacks anyho, I'm also considering Toxicologist for some bosses, to synergize with Chaotic Quadruple Border and Renko's ailment protection abilities)
Line 2
Sanae: Enhancer -> Elementalist (CLD/SPI buff works well with Reimu, Kanako, and Sanae. NAT/PHY works with Suwako. Not fully sure about this one, will need to test)
Reimu: Strategist (To make Sanae's buffs and Kanako's majesty last longer)
Suwako: Transcendent -> Murakumo (To give Suwako strong SPI attacks which abuse her mixed offenses and Sanae's Power of the Living God - Also, Suwako's low HP and Line 2's healing potential [especially Sanae's MP recovery when awakened] works well with Murakumo's draining)
Kanako: Sorcerer (To power up Kanako's magical power)
Line 3
Ran: Strategist (To buff up Line 3's buffs and damage output/resistance)
Yukari: Transcendent (To buff up both Yukari's damage output and overall decent bulk - might consider Sorcerer too)
Marisa: Sorcerer -> Archmage (To give Marisa some diversity in offenses, though Toxicologist or Hexer to abuse Sheer Force might be an option worth testing)
Chen: Monk -> Dragon God (To abuse Chen's high speed and low delay attacks)
Thoughts, anyone?^^
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Getting into LoT1 now and...
ow. Chen. Just...ow. Chen.
She nearly slaughtered my entire party even with Meiling on my side ;-; only marisa survived.
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LoT1 is much more brutal than LoT2 in many ways :-) have fun!
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Yep have fun indeed, you go back to your last save if you get a game over, be careful with that, else your exploration and grinding is lost
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Getting into LoT1 now and...
ow. Chen. Just...ow. Chen.
She nearly slaughtered my entire party even with Meiling on my side ;-; only marisa survived.
if you are doing LoT1, i need beta testers for a mod im working on. part of its complete, and while i have no real intention of fixing to much of this part because i don't expect many people to be taking /just/ this part of it, your free to use it if it helps you enjoy the game more, and feedback is fine. i just quickly slapped this together so its not even what this part would be normally standalone, but it would be adding a weakness chart for enemies. because im lazy, this also unintensionally includes some Rebirth stuff, some of my HUD recoloring / styleing, and 1F includes new enemies from Part 2 that im working on. this works on both main game and post game.
Labyrinth of touhou Colors mod (alpha) <link deleted, check post further ahead in the topic for more updated verson>
the end goal is to make the game feel fresh, stylish, and require less searching on the touhou labyrinth wiki to beat the game. i am still actively working on this game, and just added the new 1F enemies today. install instructions are included. soon i should be tackleing new floor entry graphics, and some new sound effects or backround music. (maybe with releaseing this, i'll put abit more priority on styleizing the HUD tho)
(now if only i could get into the games exe and be able to change some more things then i plan on....oooo....i want help with that so badly)
2 AM : spend a few hours making stylish role labels to apply to charagraph mugs, so you can know what everyone does in battle, to really make use of weakness charts. now off to sleep. applied it to a few characters to test and their very small non intrustive and stylish. RIP most of yesterday and 6 hours today on finalizeing their color schemes tho. i took the idea from some charagraph i saw somewhere. if i post a update to my colors mod alpha, it will include them on all characters, along with some options charagraphs also with the labels applied. i also have the option to have them removed already as well. now then, zzzz.
we really need people to start translations for Lot2 plus disk. i think once im done my mod, i'll jump into it.
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we really need people to start translations for Lot2 plus disk. i think once im done my mod, i'll jump into it.
Onegaishimasu! :-) I already have the Plus Disk, but I am still wary about jumping into the PD content because I wanna be able to enjoy the story... I'd love an English patch so much! Moreover, I don't think there'd be a problem in translating it even if the PD content is not complete yet - at worst, 3peso will add more stuff, but I doubt it'd change anything of what he already made in an extensive way (especially dialogues etc.), so it's not like your work would go to waste once the full PD is released.
EDIT: Oh, and Nyttyn, please make videos of some of the boss fights if you can, they are such a pleasure to watch when the fight is close^^
EDIT2: Just defeated Tenshi on 12F... and Ame no Murakumo as well :-) I REALLY encourage all of you to give the Sealing Club girls a try, they're much stronger than I imagined.
Renko is basically invincible. Thanks to Maintenance, she has tank-worthy stats, on top of a massive evasion score (around 150), letting her dodge nearly everything enemies throw at her (for example, she dodged every single Start of Heavenly Demise from Murakumo). And on top of that, she also get a superb buffing spell in Charge - the HP drain is not nearly as problematic when bosses only target her most of the time (and when you're healing back with Yuuka or Reimu). As a side note, Maintenance also means that it's incredibly easy to buff her resistances when needed - while normally weak to Spirit, for example, one single item lets her Spirit resistance skyrocket to over 250, letting her soak Murakumo's slashes like they were nothing.
Maribel is possibly even more crazy. Thanks to her ability to treat enemy's buffs as debuffs, she absolutely wrecks every single boss who likes to buff itself. For example, she took down Tenshi (12F) with three Chaotic Quadruple Border (at, like, level 60 with 50ish library levels), doing 25-30k damage per hit. On top of that, she has crazy mana regeneration (recovering 2 MP per turn while Renko is out), letting her fire off CQB or Liberated Abilities repeatedly, without any need to Concentrate (and when she does, the follow-up attack is gonna hurt like hell). And as a side note, CQB also does quick work of any SHK-weak boss, like Yuuka or that extra boss in postgame.
Truly, I first chose to include those two on my team because they looked cute, but in truth, they're amazingly powerful. Give them a try and you won't be disappointed.
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Getting into LoT1 now and...
ow. Chen. Just...ow. Chen.
She nearly slaughtered my entire party even with Meiling on my side ;-; only marisa survived.
Ya I don't get ver 3 Chen. Her normal attack could 1 shot most of my party members, but her other attacks barely did any damage.
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Yeah, I don't really have the desire to make videos sorry. Though I have to say, Youmu can outright go screw herself. Two attempts and I still nearly ran out of gas at the end. I'm getting the impression from this that LoT1 is a lot more damage race-y than LoT2 is, it's a *lot* harder so far to keep people going.
As for the mod...
Well, I don't like the change on the load from whatever it was to Color, but I understand that's a stylistic choice. I have no feedback beyond that as the mod doesn't actually work - the game will simply black screen when you attempt to load a save file or start a new game.
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I have a small question related to Marisa's corridor skills in LoT2 that I don't think I've seen anyone mention, looking back at the rest of this thread, but the Hakkero Charge counter is only increasing while Marisa takes turns on the front row, and not while she's in reserve. Everything I've read says that she should also be getting an increase to the counter while in the reserve. Is it bugged, or am I just mistaken and it doesn't work unless she takes turns on the front row?
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The further on in LoT1 that you get the more strategy can get involved in your fights since you start to gain the SP required to use new things and be sustainable.
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I have a small question related to Marisa's corridor skills in LoT2 that I don't think I've seen anyone mention, looking back at the rest of this thread, but the Hakkero Charge counter is only increasing while Marisa takes turns on the front row, and not while she's in reserve. Everything I've read says that she should also be getting an increase to the counter while in the reserve. Is it bugged, or am I just mistaken and it doesn't work unless she takes turns on the front row?
If that happens then it's bugged.
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3 more days, according to my timezone, until it's been a whole month since there has been any activity on the devs twitter.
Makes me wonder if something serious happened. :ohdear:
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3 more days, according to my timezone, until it's been a whole month since there has been any activity on the devs twitter.
Makes me wonder if something serious happened. :ohdear:
Given he had radio silence on for like a year if not more beforehand. I wouldn't go that far.
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Yeah, I don't really have the desire to make videos sorry. Though I have to say, Youmu can outright go screw herself. Two attempts and I still nearly ran out of gas at the end. I'm getting the impression from this that LoT1 is a lot more damage race-y than LoT2 is, it's a *lot* harder so far to keep people going.
It gets better the further you get into the game, but LoT2 is better designed even if the boss fights were less interesting for the most part. That said though, LoT2 doesn't really have "unfair" bosses while in LoT1 after you reach a certain point you're doing yourself a disservice if you want to trial and error through boss fights to figure stuff out. Or I guess you could just brute force it by over grinding but that's not much fun either.
I really should play through LoT1 again though. I couldn't bring myself to do it before since I still haven't cleared 30F. But knowing what I know about the game now should make the beginnings of the game so much more enjoyable so I reconsidered that choice.
Also, wow that fight must have been super messy, seeing Remilia in the fourth slot...
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Yeah, I don't really have the desire to make videos sorry. Though I have to say, Youmu can outright go screw herself. Two attempts and I still nearly ran out of gas at the end. I'm getting the impression from this that LoT1 is a lot more damage race-y than LoT2 is, it's a *lot* harder so far to keep people going.
As for the mod...
Well, I don't like the change on the load from whatever it was to Color, but I understand that's a stylistic choice. I have no feedback beyond that as the mod doesn't actually work - the game will simply black screen when you attempt to load a save file or start a new game.
are you sure you did it correctly? it shouldnt have any problems and i just tried it with another pc, worked fine. did you rename your dxa?
maybe i uploaded the wrong thing... and i see you like the lebeled character graphs (NLM BFF FIR ect) im actually making better ones of those for my mod and applying it to many charagraphs. if you have any preferences for character graphics (im assuming no as your using defaults) let me know and il add those labels to them and release them as charagraphs
if it wasnt clear you put the unzipped IMG and IMG2 folders where your games exe is, and then rename / backup / delete your img.dxa and img2.dxa files (i recommend backing these up)
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are you sure you did it correctly? it shouldnt have any problems and i just tried it with another pc, worked fine. did you rename your dxa?
maybe i uploaded the wrong thing... and i see you like the lebeled character graphs (NLM BFF FIR ect) im actually making better ones of those for my mod and applying it to many charagraphs. if you have any preferences for character graphics (im assuming no as your using defaults) let me know and il add those labels to them and release them as charagraphs
if it wasnt clear you put the unzipped IMG and IMG2 folders where your games exe is, and then rename / backup / delete your img.dxa and img2.dxa files (i recommend backing these up)
Yeah, I did exactly that. The game just black screens on load w/ no sound (though it does show different colors for the load game text as well).
Edit: I've also tried JP locale, english locale, deleting/renaming both img.dxa/img2.dxa and the openoffice file, and leaving the openoffice file be. Noone of it works.
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Yeah, I don't really have the desire to make videos sorry. Though I have to say, Youmu can outright go screw herself. Two attempts and I still nearly ran out of gas at the end. I'm getting the impression from this that LoT1 is a lot more damage race-y than LoT2 is, it's a *lot* harder so far to keep people going.
Pity for the videos^^ Anyway, if I were to say, it's not that LoT1 is more damage race-y than LoT2, but rather that in LoT1, your damage output is generally much smaller compared to the boss's HP pools than in LoT2. Moreover, frail characters like Suwako are REALLY frail in LoT1. In LoT1 you might get lucky and have them survive an AoE... or maybe they'll dodge. In LoT1, unless you overlevel, AoE nukes are LETHAL. Not even your tanks are granted to survive without resistances or defensive buffs.
The overall result is that, generally, endgames are much more tight and closer, and so it does feel more like a damage race. But at the same time, it's a hell of a lot more rewarding. For example, here is a video of my newgame+ fight vs Alice (which I posted a few pages ago):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J90aIV2EYhw
As you can see if you watch it all, all the AoE (especially Little Legion) are outright murderous... and your damage output is quite lame in comparison. As a result, most of your victories will be of the "one more turn and I'd have lost" kind... like in this video^^
But that's what makes LoT1 fun! LoT2 might have less useless chars, better graphics, more choices... but LoT1 has far more fun boss battles. The 18F boss in LoT1 will easily go down as one of the most epic fights in RPG history IMO, strategy-wise^^
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LoT1 and LoT2 flow a bit different in general. I find in LoT2 it's rather difficult to use glass cannons and often want to leave my characters in a lot, but in LoT1 it seemed like the most efficient strategies often involved heavy swapping with a good dose of glass nukers. That'll change in LoT2 as stuff like Keine's 9999atb swap becomes more common (or at least rinno/nazrin's swap, 9300?) as postgame is expanded and you get more awakenings/time to use them, but yeah.
In Plus Disk Lot1 everyone gets steadily more durable (apart from the total glass ones) but in maingame, it's a thing.
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In particular, I find that fragile speedster (characters that focus on low dmg-low delay attacks coupled with average ATK/MAG, high SPD and low DEF/MND/HP) like Chen, Rin , Nazrin or Mystia are much less viable in LoT2 than in LoT1 simply because most stay-in attackers (Meiling, the onis, Yuuka, Maribel, Kanako) are so good in LoT2. They can deal very high amounts of dmg at very reasonable delays, can take several hits and some also have passives or spellcards that allow them to keep themselves buffed and/or recover HP and MP efficiently, so overall there's literally no reason to switch them out once they get going.
In LoT1 I remember having Chen as one of my best physical attackers during most of the game, both against random battles and against bosses where she would just shred them with repeated Flights of Idaten, meanwhile in LoT2 I had both Meiling and Chen in my team and Mountain Breaker at +50%ATK would sometimes deal as much as 10 times more dmg than Flight of Idaten at +80%ATK ( of course this is also because Mountain Breaker's formula is completely bonkers, but still), so there was no real point in bothering to switch Chen in if I could just focus on buffing and healing Meiling instead, this gets even worse in postgame since every boss has so much DEF that Chen would pretty much never get to deal more than 1 dmg. This does seem to be less of a problem in plus disc ( against Kasen's shadow Chen was actually able to keep up much better with Meiling).
Granted, these characters also became even better at clearing random encounters in LoT2 thanks to their passives.
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Speaking about game balance. I've adjusted the exp and money gain rates in a playtrough I did once because I like my LoT2 to be more grindy.
I turned out the general pacing was still the same, as in, you grind a while to beat a boss and you are ready to sometimes even beat the next one as well.
If anyone happens to know where or how to find enemy stats, please do tell me. Or if you have a better idea on how to change the games pace to be less fluid.
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Wouldn't it be easier to mess with characters' experience requirements instead of every monster's reward individually?
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I think I found another possible bug as well with a corridor skill, but I'm not sure.
Rinnosuke, with his corridor skill maxed that gives him buffs on all auxillary actions and debuffs on all offensive actions, is working correctly with First Aid to give a 15% all stats buff to whomever it is used on. However, with maxed Battle Command I'm only getting 18% all stats buff before buff decay.
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LoT1 and LoT2 flow a bit different in general. I find in LoT2 it's rather difficult to use glass cannons and often want to leave my characters in a lot, but in LoT1 it seemed like the most efficient strategies often involved heavy swapping with a good dose of glass nukers. That'll change in LoT2 as stuff like Keine's 9999atb swap becomes more common (or at least rinno/nazrin's swap, 9300?) as postgame is expanded and you get more awakenings/time to use them, but yeah.
In Plus Disk Lot1 everyone gets steadily more durable (apart from the total glass ones) but in maingame, it's a thing.
I think that part of the reason why LoT1 is more favourable towards hit-and-switch is because delays are generally larger, both for the player and the enemies, so you have ample time to switch in and out. In LoT2, on the other hand, you're generally better off staying (also because many chars have several useful periodic passives you want to abuse, especially in the lategame)
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I think I found another possible bug as well with a corridor skill, but I'm not sure.
Rinnosuke, with his corridor skill maxed that gives him buffs on all auxillary actions and debuffs on all offensive actions, is working correctly with First Aid to give a 15% all stats buff to whomever it is used on. However, with maxed Battle Command I'm only getting 18% all stats buff before buff decay.
Actually, I believe in the japanese wiki it says the skill provides buffs on healing actions , not auxiliary actions.
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Actually, I believe in the japanese wiki it says the skill provides buffs on healing actions , not auxiliary actions.
Well, that would solve that. That's pretty annoying but I guess it is good to know.
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LoT1 and LoT2 flow a bit different in general. I find in LoT2 it's rather difficult to use glass cannons and often want to leave my characters in a lot, but in LoT1 it seemed like the most efficient strategies often involved heavy swapping with a good dose of glass nukers. That'll change in LoT2 as stuff like Keine's 9999atb swap becomes more common (or at least rinno/nazrin's swap, 9300?) as postgame is expanded and you get more awakenings/time to use them, but yeah.
In Plus Disk Lot1 everyone gets steadily more durable (apart from the total glass ones) but in maingame, it's a thing.
I still haven't played lot2 terribly much even though I like it cuz waiting for patch for +disc (and I stopped playing when +disc was announced because I didn't think it would take so long to get here). So I'm probably one of the least enlightened people regarding lot2. particularly since the wiki had no formulas or anything last I played.
BUT...
My experience wasn't just that glass cannons were harder to keep out in lot2 'just because', but rather lot1's 'glass cannons' that had low hp and/or defense, but good mnd could take a hit or two (or even more sometimes) from many bosses because lots would use magic formulas, and a lot of the physical ones were single target that rarely targeted the rear, or were row-targeting, which barely touched the read. needle parade, snipe, and uhh.. uhh... what was it... arrow rain...These were REALLY rare abilities from bosses until the post game, at which point they were still fairly uncommon.
But in lot2, I felt like a character with great mnd but abysmal hp and/or def was never truly 'safe' for the vast majority of bosses, and not just during postgame.
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Wouldn't it be easier to mess with characters' experience requirements instead of every monster's reward individually?
Yep, but there's less control that way. Adjusting exp gains is even easier and disabling drop bonus skills, but the thing is as I tried to say, even if your party needs some grinding to tackle the next boss, by the time you are ready for said boss, there's not much of a gap between this boss and the next floor and it's enemies.
Basically what I'm going to try is create a bigger gap between floors, like it was in LoT1 if my memory doesn't fail me.
My first though was, the best way to do this is to 1.lower global exp and money gains by simply dividing all earnings and 2. to raise some enemy stats until it doesn't happen anymore that after you beat a boss, the next floors monsters will be a cakewalk and you essentially skip a whole floors grind simply because the last floor was enough to prepare you for the next one
Granted doing step 2 would require a good amount of time, thinking and testing and I'm honestly not sure if I'd ever want to bother with it, if the tables are too hard to read without manually written tools since I know nothing about programming. On second though, I'm pretty sure that idea will never be realized, given the amount of enemies. Maybe making bosses more manageable but applying additional penalties would be the better option, since there is a gap between enemies from one to the next floor and the problem is usually having to grind a lot to beat the boss, after which you will have an easy time to deal with the next floor due to the grind involved...I said this based on my experiences with lowered battle rewards. Sorry, rambling too much about things only I care about. :V
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Yeah, I did exactly that. The game just black screens on load w/ no sound (though it does show different colors for the load game text as well).
Edit: I've also tried JP locale, english locale, deleting/renaming both img.dxa/img2.dxa and the openoffice file, and leaving the openoffice file be. Noone of it works.
Whoa! :wat: ??? :o i dont know what those img.dxa3 and img2.dxa3 files are or what their doing there but i dont have them. maybe related?
i believe i fixed the problem anyway, altho i only had it happen once and then never agin, so if it is a 'real' problem, i guess i fixed it? closest i got to 'the problem' (for sure) other then getting it once on a fluke, was trying to load the game via USB to a new laptop i have, but it was a simple case of 'don't try and load via USB' as all i had to do was wait forever and the black screen went away and the game proceeded with sound and video.
now includes finished new character graphics and all labeled! :V took me forever to finalize the design of the new graphical style for the labels. heres a example of the finished thing ingame with the games new default graphics (attached to post as image) :3
:D and heres the new link for alpha 0.2: <removed> check later post
now includes some new 2F enemies as well. my time to work on this has been very limited, but i'll get some more tomorrow. been REALLY playing through persona 5 on merciless difficulty, im 75 hours in and i think im 50% done the game :derp: but this weekend im letting my friend borrow my PS4 so TO MOD WORK I GO~!
also attached is the exact files to rename / delete / move so they arn't in the games directory. as of now on 3 different PC's, the mod always works. and i can't really think of why it wouldn't work. again, its still early into it, im going to be changing menus more, and a bunch of other stuff. i'll probably tackle changing the rest of the enemies first tho, but i got sidetracked on finishing up the new character portraits / labels so the player can easily see what characters use what elements, to really use the in battle charts.
final note: im aware some enemies charts may overlap. in the default game, enemies were already very close and overlapping somewhat, you just didn't notice as much or care because it wasn't important text like a chart being blocked because of it. as i update the enemies that are in the game with new sprites, i'll adjust things so the overlap doesn't happen anymore. (except for the intentional ones of 6 enemies on the exact same location) but for the time being, some charts in random battles may be hard to read due to enemy overlap i'll fix it i promise! and again, feedback is welcome, and i guess, anything not really feedback wise, but simply something you would like to see changed period, is also welcome! i'm probably going to look into having the colored gates be significantly more different between their 'open' and 'close' states, so their easier to tell if the games are open or closed just by looking. i felt when i first played it wasn't clear enough. thats a example of 'general suggestions' you could ask for me to hit as i pass over the games graphics.
(remember to click the images below to see them in their full resolution)
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welp i cracked the games exe. i can edit character names, ability names, ability descriptions, enemy names, item names, item descriptions, and the plot. from a quick look without to much effort.
enemy names, item names, ability names, and character names all seem really easy. descriptions for items abilities however... for some reason the individual sentences are all over the place so that might be a nightmare.
i can also change the music and sound effects with ease.
i don't know about floor layout or battle lineups yet, or enemy resistances and weaknesses.
i can't believe im saying this but LoT1 code uses the word FUCK as a line break. why? xD
edit: now i have some new enemies on 3F 4F 5F and 6F. all new enemies, previous, and these actually new ones, all have custom names. things proceed smoothly.
edit2: LoT1 colors mod alpha 0.3 <removed>
Edit3: LoT1 colors mod alpha 0.4 http://www.mediafire.com/file/l8smt9wfdfg7odq/Labyrinth+of+Touhou+COLORS+%28Alpha%29+0.4.zip
now includes atleast 1 new enemy on every floor of the main game, with many floors having multiple enemies. i did this so people could see some changes reguardless how far they are, rather then hard focus from the start to end of the game. i didn't touch new enemies in post game yet, altho they do have the charts already. next is either lots more enemies again, or looking over the HUD or maybe music files. (but probably more enemies, altho again, i'll probably do whatever feedback says if i agree)
guess i forgot to say so why the reason i gave the loading screen a logo, is so the player knows the mod is working. i fucking hate modding something, and not knowing if my mod worked or not until later on.
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Well I managed to beat the last boss available in the LoT2 Plus Disk as it stands right now. ...Well, besides Endless Corridor stuff and the level 760 icon.
The last boss was pretty difficult, it was honestly the only Plus Disk boss that took me more than around twenty minutes. The random encounters of the PD are way more brutal than the bosses.
I will admit I was pretty underleveled though for the fight so that likely didn't help at all. http://puu.sh/vxbMm/953105cc75.jpg
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i can't believe im saying this but LoT1 code uses the word FUCK as a line break. why? xD
It doesn't. If you see that, it's a dead string, not referenced by anything.
(It's there because I enjoy cursing)
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It doesn't. If you see that, it's a dead string, not referenced by anything.
(It's there because I enjoy cursing)
oh its your fault. i see.
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I didn't see this specified in the thread, but after doing some more reading on Miko's Awakening skill, Crown Prince's Teaching is a 16/8% multiplicative increase to the original value of buffs and not additive, which is how I thought it worked. In retrospect, the wording on the translation of the skill does suggest that it's multiplicative ("16% more benefit from buffs") but I did not understand it to mean that, and was unsure if it was just me being dumb or if others may have misunderstood it as well.
So (as an example) a 50% buff would become 58% if Miko is in the front and 54% if in the back, as opposed to 66%/58% respectively. I'm a little disappointed because I was thinking it could do things like change the Monk subclass skill Body Revitalization from a 4% buff to all stats per turn to a 20/12% one, or provide a large increase to passive skills that increase stats like Aya's SPD buff or Keine's MND buff. The way it works, if Miko is in the back, there is no increase to any buff that is 12% or lower (it lowers down if there are decimals, 1.08 * 12 = 12.96), which covers pretty much every stat boosting passive skill that activates per turn. And the per turn buffs that do get affected get increased by 1%. Still a great skill, just not what I was thinking it was.
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What I assumed it meant is the stat increase you're passively gaining from having a buff on is larger, not that a buff cast on you will increase your buff level by a certain percent more. I could be wrong, though.
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Huh, I didn't consider that, which is kind of dumb since Miko is the one character with a skill that does that (for herself). Looking at the JP wiki again, it looks like it increases the % values added by buffs and the strength of the buff itself by the 16/8% values. That's actually a lot better than I originally thought it was, instead of making buffs easier to get and maintain with small increases, large buffs become even stronger. I was reworking my planned team and couldn't find a spot to fill, looks like Miko fits right in again. The buff strength thing makes a lot of sense in retrospect, the JP wiki drew comparisons with Maribel's Vision Sharing, but it wouldn't make sense to do that if the skill only affected increases from buffs. It also makes sense to exclude Miko from the effect, since otherwise it would stack with her personal buff strengthening skill.
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Speaking about this... has anybody tested Maribel's Vision Sharing? Does it give a standard boost? Or a "hidden" stat boost, like Sealing Club or the other kinship passives? Because if it's the latter, it's gonna be devastating - +25% passive to everybody while she's on the front with maxxed buffs (and +50% to Renko, who already has Maintenance!) is crazy. Not that the other way would be worthless - though maybe not as glorious.
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How would I go about modding base LoT2? I really do want to just break the game more than it needs to be broken.
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Short answer: Cheat Engine, Ollydbg, possibly programming and google how to extract .dxa files and know the game will load files from a folder if the .dxa can't be found.
But I have no idea what you were expecting, noone created any public tools for this specific game, if that's what you're asking for (?).
Well, EthanSilver (his name on this forum) posted his findings like 3 years ago, but I can't be bothered to look it up now. A simple hex editor would do in that case since all you would have to do is search for the specified address and change the value, then save.
I remember I shared some cheat engine scripts before I put them into the exe that had options to do other basic stuff like removing the gem cap and adjusting exp and money gain rate a bit by various means, but noone was interested so I stopped keeping track of it, not even sure if it's still up somewhere, would probably be an old version anyway and what I have now would need cleaning up and I'm too lazy.
Maybe I missed something, but I -think- thats as far as LoT2 modding/hacking went so far.
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I know some programming but haven't kept my knowledge up to date for like a decade because despite everyone saying it was a high demand job, I never got hired for shit because nepotism ho! But I never heard of ollydbg. Upon googling it it sounds like cheatengine. google doesn't tell me however if it's worth understanding in addition to cheat-engine or if it's kind of an either or option like directx/openGL. Soo uhhh.. is it?
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I know some programming but haven't kept my knowledge up to date for like a decade because despite everyone saying it was a high demand job, I never got hired for shit because nepotism ho! But I never heard of ollydbg. Upon googling it it sounds like cheatengine. google doesn't tell me however if it's worth understanding in addition to cheat-engine or if it's kind of an either or option like directx/openGL. Soo uhhh.. is it?
ollydbg is a runtime debugger. You can use it to learn how a program works. If you've ever used a regular code debugger, like in visual studio or gdb, it's kinda like that. Except you don't get the source code, only the assembly.
It's what I used to make the various code changes to LoT1. e.g. "okay, where's the code responsible for the level up message? ...found it. Where's the variable corresponding to the character's name? ...there. Now I just need to rewrite this code to not call Rinnosuke a lady and save it."
That's glossing over all the details but it's a simple example of what I used it for.
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Speaking about this... has anybody tested Maribel's Vision Sharing? Does it give a standard boost? Or a "hidden" stat boost, like Sealing Club or the other kinship passives? Because if it's the latter, it's gonna be devastating - +25% passive to everybody while she's on the front with maxxed buffs (and +50% to Renko, who already has Maintenance!) is crazy. Not that the other way would be worthless - though maybe not as glorious.
It should work like the latter based on the wording of both the EN translation and the original JP, along with the comments about how to use it in the JP wiki, but that's not the same as testing it. But I think that's good enough?
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Unrelated, cleared the 12f Tenshi battle at Brave Level (level range was 48-54, 49 average, target was 50). Iku's normal attacks backed by Sorcerer really are as strong as they're made out to be. Was able to average about 1.5K with Tenshi at 100% MND from State of Enlightenment with no buffs to Iku's MAG besides Magic Beating, even Reisen was doing 2 damage at best with People of the Moon backed Discarder. As Tenshi's buffs decayed the damage was about 4.5-4.75K (with just Magic Beating still), which was about 6% of Tenshi's HP per hit. Was able to avoid both Sword of Hisou and Violent Motherland by using just Iku's normal attacks as the main means of offense, making the fight fairly simple. Eirin with Healer for Prayer of Recovery is also healing for about 1.8K average without buffs, which is nearly double HP for most characters in the party. The overheal has been really convenient, I had some doubts before trying it out but it's about as effective as I thought it might be even with the Plus Disc nerf.
So far the only party change I've made is swapping Reimu out for Sanae after learning MP growth from leveling up is capped at twice the character's base MP (is this mentioned at all on the EN wiki? Didn't see it anywhere, kind of useful to know). While the max MP is still quite high factoring in MP Gems/Orbs and equipment, it means MP recovery is kind of relevant for long-term combat. I think having Sanae's Awakening skill for MP recovery is more useful than what Reimu can do, since there's already at least one character in the planned team that can do everything Reimu can do. Eiki can technically do MP recovery support post-Awakening as well, but not nearly as effectively as Sanae. Otherwise, the party's been doing their roles about as well as I thought they might aside from Kogasa (due to lack of Awakening), who still does well as a DEF targeting attacker that can MND debuff, which combos well with Iku doing the inverse. Need to see how it holds up later on in the game though.
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Yeah Reimu is definitely no longer the "must-have" character she was in TH1 - it's also worth noting that Rumia's Demarcation is nothing to scoff at in TH2, and Maribel's Novice Border, when levelled to the max, can heal a significant amount of HP as well. But it is also worth noting that, as far as I know, Reimu's MP recovery passive is the only one that works even when she's not on the front line (unlike, say, Sanae or Mystia), which can make the difference in long explorations.
Also whoa, MP cap? :-O that's kinda relevant, I mean - in TH1 MP became a non-concern in the endgame, but here it would be a whole different story (though it remains to be seen how much MP you can get from gear, gems, MP boost abilities etc.)
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Yeah Reimu is definitely no longer the "must-have" character she was in TH1 - it's also worth noting that Rumia's Demarcation is nothing to scoff at in TH2, and Maribel's Novice Border, when levelled to the max, can heal a significant amount of HP as well. But it is also worth noting that, as far as I know, Reimu's MP recovery passive is the only one that works even when she's not on the front line (unlike, say, Sanae or Mystia), which can make the difference in long explorations.
Also whoa, MP cap? :-O that's kinda relevant, I mean - in TH1 MP became a non-concern in the endgame, but here it would be a whole different story (though it remains to be seen how much MP you can get from gear, gems, MP boost abilities etc.)
Yeah with the current team composition I have, Maribel's MT heal should be fine...once I get her, anyway. I don't know how strong it is exactly since the formula doesn't seem to be listed, but given that the Boost effect it grants also affects heals, and based on some gameplay I've seen with her, it seems like it's perfectly sufficient. After something like Great Catastrophe (or whatever the full party HP to 1 thing is called, playing unpatched), could have Maribel Concentrate for Grand Incantation and Aya use Divine Grandson's Advent to immediately followup with DIY Novice Barrier for an easy full heal. Kogasa can do healing on TRR susceptible targets post-Awakening too (8% is more of a nice passive to soften MT attacks, but 26% + Speedy Formation Change for 9100 ATB switches is amazing), but that's still a long ways away. Some of the subclass stuff like Enhancer granting 16% HP heals on buffs seems like it could be handy for healing against weaker MT attacks that don't necessitate a proper healing spell card. I dunno how useful the MP recovery passive Reimu has is though, considering the 8 characters not in the front recover MP during battle. Swapping characters around might be able to compensate for a lack of MP recovery. Plus a 66% activation rate for just +1 MP seems rather unsatisfying overall.
Regarding the MP cap, I spent some time looking at that kind of thing to see what the max MP is passively. MP Gems and Orbs cap out at +10 each, Normal/Second/Mega MP Boost give +5/10/15 MP respectively, and Rinnosuke's High/Giga MP Boost skills grant +10/+25 MP respectively. Ran also gets a unique MP boosting skill that caps at +10 from her Awakening. So from passive bonuses alone, if you max out the MP Boost skills at their highest level, is +35 MP for all characters except Rinnosuke and Ran, who get +45 MP instead. You can also get +2-6 MP from subclasses. From equipment, the main equipment Button of Undying and Tokugawa Doubling Gold grant +12 MP (and the latter seems like the best piece of main equipment for buff/healing focused characters), and several equipment pieces grant +2-6 MP (though I lack the experience to effectively gauge which sub equipment is best for end-game). Though, actually, the EN wiki says that the Button of Undying is +15 MP, and it lists Judas Pain (which has a missing spot in the JP wiki, incompletion is such a nuisance) as +15 MP and +2 MP Recovery, which would make it the best MP focused main equipment. So the theoretical maximum MP is +35/45 from passive bonuses, +6 from subclass, +15 from the main equipment, and +18 from the sub equipment, for a total of +74/84 MP. Assuming that there are no sub equipments unlisted on the JP wiki that grant more than 6 MP. Characters with Maintenance can get +30/+36 from main/sub equipment. Don't think I missed anything, but that doesn't mean I didn't.
idk if it's of any usefulness, but the max MP from leveling up for every character is
60: Akyuu
56: Patchouli, Flandre
52: Eirin, Yuuka, Miko
50: Yuyuko
48: Minoriko, Yukari, Byakuren
46: Mamizou
44: Marisa
42: Kaguya, Kanako
40: Komachi, Ran, Futo
38: Utsuho, Alice, Sanae
36: Keine, Maribel
34: Kasen
32: Reimu, Rumia, Nazrin, Reisen, Suwako, Kokoro, Koishi
30: Cirno, Nitori, Wriggle, Satori, Iku, Eiki, Shou, Tokiko
28: Kogasa, Mystia, Hina, Rin, Meiling, Suika, Sakuya, Tenshi, Renko
26: Parsee, Mokou, Aya
24: Youmu
20: Chen, Remilia
18: Rinnosuke, Momiji, Yuugi
Average is 35 34 MP, median is 32 MP, most common is 28 MP with 9 characters (30 MP has 8, 32 MP has 7). With MP Gems/Orbs/Boosts maxed out, Momiji and Yuugi have the lowest MP in the game at 53, while Akyuu gets 95 MP to work with. Akyuu also has the longest to reach the cap. With a 1/18 MP growth rate and 30 base MP, she won't reach 60 MP until level 541. As a comparison, Tokiko has the worst MP growth rate in the game at 1/25 and 15 base MP, and reaches her cap of 30 MP at level 376. Generally speaking, most characters can use their most expensive spell cards several times without restoring their MP with MP Gems/Orbs/Boosts maxed out. Like Reimu gets 67 MP under those circumstances, which lets her use Exorcising Border 8 times consecutively without MP recovery, or Great Hakurei Barrier 9 times. Still very different from the first game;s virtually unlimited spell card usage by endgame, especially with MP recovery being static and not % based (aside from skills like Small MP Recovery).
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So far the only party change I've made is swapping Reimu out for Sanae after learning MP growth from leveling up is capped at twice the character's base MP (is this mentioned at all on the EN wiki? Didn't see it anywhere, kind of useful to know).
I did not know this. At all. And if it IS on the wiki, I must have missed it because it was really shocking when I confirmed that this was true... I just kind of assumed that it would be like LoT1 where you'll just get longer and longer strings of not having to worry about MP as you leveled up further and further.
Its kind of cool though, it means MP management is always a concern. Which is great, since Concentrating in LoT2 isn't awful compared to Focusing LoT1. If I ever used Focus in LoT1, I was in a very desperate situation, or very rarely, I'd have a free "turn".
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Since no one else seems to be doing this, I'm going to be setting up the spots for the Awakening skills for the Plus Disc characters on the wiki. Can someone point me to the part of the thread where the data for said skills are?
Edit: Placeholders have been set.
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Shou
True Bishamonten's Wrath (1*60): Bishamonten's Wrath counter will no longer halve when the user moves to the back.
Ability to Gather More Wealth (1*60): Enhance Ability to Gather Wealth by increasing the experience bonus by 2%, and money and item drop rate bonus by 5%. Also, increase Radiant Treasure Gun's reward increase amount by 40%.
Piercing Attack (2*5)
Mamizou
Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki (1*70): When the user uses a normal attack, increase Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter by 1. Increase user's damage dealt by (counter*8)%, and reduce the user's damage intake by (counter*4)%. When the user moves to the back, remove the counter. The counter maxes at 5.
Trickery of Bake-Tanuki (1*50): When the user moves ot the back, instead of removing Wisdom of Bake-Tanuki counter, reduce it by 1 instead.
Majesty (2*5)
Futo
Seeking the Dragon in its Nest (1*160): When the user has learned both "Ritual Plate Offering to Mikoto Nigihayahi" and "Ritual Plate Offering to Okami Omononushi", both skills will take effect.
Super Agile Eighty Sake Cups (5*24): The user starts each battle with Sake Cup counter at (SLv).
Accelerate (1*10)
Miko
Prince's Lecture (1*144)
When the skill holder is in the front, all other frontlines receive 16% more benefit from buffs.
When the skill holder is in the back, all frontliners receive 8% more benefit from buffs.
Supreme Divinely-Appointed Stateswoman (1*100)
Both effects of Divinely-Appointed Statewoman will always be active.
Tradition of Just Rewards will take on both morphed elements and additional effects.
Mega Asuka Heritage Attack (1*50)
Asuka Heritage Attack's activation condition becomes "when HP is above 50%".
Kokoro
Dance of the Empty-Hearted Masks (1*128)
Reduce Emotion Mask's debuff aspect on allies by half.
If Power of the Emotion Mask Creator also activates,
allies will suffer no debuff from Emotion Mask instead.
Mask of Hope (1*66)
When the skill holder receives a turn, regenerate HP at 10%.
Continued Spirit (1*60)
Fighting Spirit will not disappear when the skill holder moves to the back,
but will instead lose 1 level.
Tokiko
Tokiko's Thick Book Marital Arts (1*50)
If the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", increase DEF and MND by 25%.
If the skill holder is not under the effect of "Reading", increase ATK and MAG by 25%.
[I have no idea how to break this phrase] (http://puu.sh/t7jBa/c0b0c22ebd.png) (1*80)
When the skill holder is under the effect of "Reading", "The Count of Monte Cristo's Vengeance" and
"Musketeer d'Artagnan's Recklessness"'s special effects are further strengthened,
and the spells' power is also increased. When this effecf activates, there is a low chance
that "Reading" effect will disappear.
Book-reading Youkai's Unremarkable Grudge (1*60)
In battle, if Reimu or Marisa is in the back,
"Victim of Reimu and Marisa's brutality" will activate at half strength.
Koishi
Embryo's Dream (1*70)
When evading an attack, increase "Embryo's Dream" counter by 1 33% of the time.
When attacking, using a spell, or using concentrate while Embryo's Dream counter is present,
reduce the counter by 1 and repeat the action. This will use MP as normal, and won't activate if the user doesn't have enough MP.
Super-responsive Senses+ (1*70)
When Super-responsive Senses activate, action gauge is increased by 10000 instead.
Embryo Dance for Some Reason (1*128)
When evading an attack, the chance of "Embryo's Dream" counter increasing is doubled.
Akyuu
Desire for Greater Wisdom (1*50)
Occasionally "Protecting Art of Wisdom" and "Guarding Art of Wisdom" will affect all frontliners.
Protector of Knowledge (1*75)
"Temporary Invincibility" and "Temporary Invulnerability" will naturally disappear half as often.
True Maiden of Are (1*50)
"Power of the Child of Miare" will occasionally not consume TP when it activates.
Miare's Great Knowledge (5*25)
Mp Cost 11 / Targets all allies / NTR / Auxillary
A support spell that places a "increase next action's damage" boost on all allies.
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Thank you. I'll get to inputting that in now.
Edit: I have finished with Akyuu's entry, which I decided to do first because of the fact that she's the only one with a spell as an Awakening skill in the Plus Disc character group. The rest will be done shortly.
Edit the 2nd: The name of one of Tokiko's skills has not been translated, so I'm going to put in a filler name("Book Lover's Ardor") for now, if that's all right by everyone. If it's not, please let me know.
Edit the 3rd: I was looking at the picture of Tokiko's untranslated skill here (https://puu.sh/t7jBa/c0b0c22ebd.png), so if someone could write the name in Japanese on the thread, I can try to figure out how to input this. Otherwise, I'll just leave in the filler name and continue filling in the other entries.
Edit the 4th: All data inputted.
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Guys, help.
I'm running base LoT2, and have completed everything up to Shadow Boss Rush and Avatar - Ame-no-Murakumo...
except for getting a few achievements. I can knock out Coward Demon on my own, and will probably grab Slapping Her Face With Money Bundles by accident during the preparation, but...
where the hell is that Modified Taser and Midgard's Tooth?!? They're the only two main equips that I have not found, and I have stood on every tile of the Great Tree and opened every last chest, killed one of just about everything, and obtained all the characters... and they still elude me!
Anyone know where I can find those two things?
The moonwiki's saying Midgard's Tooth is close to the 10F entrance (yet never states a floor,) and the Modified Taser is somewhere on 14F...
... or perhaps I just didn't actually check the maps. :smokedcheese:
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My LofT2 is stuck at double speed, is there someway to fix this?
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Change your monitors refresh rate to 60, the games speed is based on that for whatever reason.
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Hmm, I can't fight Eiki on 13f despite meeting the requirements (beat Glowing Azure Giant, have 72 achievements, Komachi has 1.3K battle points from grinding out the 3K battle achievement). Checked the JP wiki to confirm these are the only requirements. Is there something I could do to fix this?
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yeah, I can't change my refresh rate as the only option is 120hz, is there a way to lower it? I'm not getting a lot of results
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Since you said you can't lower it, I'm assuming you already tried the usual way, but I'm not sure since I didn't think there's monitors that can't lower it so just in case, open the screen that has the options to change screen resolution (it's all in german for me, not sure how it translates), open advanced settings. That should open a window about your graphic card+monitor, click on the monitor tab and that hols the setting for your monitors refresh rate... ... in windows 7. I don't know about windows NT which you seem to be using, but it's probably similar since it's still windows and I clearly remember it being very similar in windows xp.
Should be fairly easy to find, but if it really doesn't go below 120, then I -think- you are out of luck unless you have a second monitor with more common refresh rate options.
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So I've started playing this game again after playing it to around 10-12f or something a couple years ago, and I had my team mostly picked for me (they're the bigger touhou fan, I just really enjoy this series' modification of the Etrian Odyssey formula). Playing through normally, but my final team is going to be:
Reimu, Rinnosuke, Youmu, Nazrin, Reisen, Meiling, Byakuren, Yuugi, Alice, Utsuho, +2 more
I'd like to pick two more characters to round this party out, so I thought I'd get some advice (this would be for standard main-game + post-game, not plus disk / special disk type content). Once I 100% all of the BP requirements in the game (I have a list I keep updating) I'd like to stick with a specific 12 through thick and thin.
Other questions:
1) Should I get the plus disk? If I understand correctly, its out but untranslated, and I'd prefer to stay with a translated game (mostly).
2) What should I do with Youmu? Even without coming here I've realized it's very difficult to make use of her, which makes me sad as she's my favorite. Tank build and fix her mind somehow? She could be tank #2 behind Rinnosuke until I get to Byakuren. (I used Meiling as a main tank in LoT1, but that seems such a waste in this one, from what I've seen O.O)
3) Who should I spend my special items on at this point? If it would help, I'd gladly show Youmu some favoritism, but it seems like Rinnosuke might best use the training manuals at least, since hes so skill-hungry.
4) Any other suggested builds? Some seem obvious (Strategist Byakuren), but I'm unsure on many, and could never settle on much of anything sub-class wise the first time around playing this. There's so much more going on in this game that I get a serious case of analysis paralysis as compared to the first.
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1) If you want your stuff fully translated, hold off. Most of the plusses to it (hah) are post-game anyway, which is some good time away. It might even get a discount before then, depending on how sales on the site work (idk how they do).
2) Youmu in the base game is...um, bad. Yes. The offensive build is flat out worse than every other attacker just about, and the swap tank build is okay enough but Komachi does it better. The plus disc gives her a lot of love, but most of it is at the post-game level and I haven't had a chance to go into it yet. But she's not unusuable, which leads me into point 3.
3) Just use them on whoever you like the most, they let you turn anyone you want into a force to be reckoned with.
But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.
4) Just decide what role you want them to fulfill, and then assign them a subclass and stats based off of that. There's no real need to be anxious as you can change level-up stats and subclasses at will - the only thing you need to be careful about are the items that boost stats or teach skills, as they take a rare and limited item to get back.
Some added notes on this:
Everyone can work as an attacker if you're willing to apply various levels of grinding to them, but don't attempt to make them a support if they aren't already built for it, as almost all of the support subclasses are hot garbage at enabling people who don't already do the role in question to support.
For your current team, you need a tank, and another healer. Just go ahead and slap Komachi on, she works with the rest of your party and she'll tank anything the game has to offer. Go ahead and make her the Strategist instead of Byakuren too, since she'll be in slot 1 on the frontline all the time. This frees you upt o make Byakuren something else ( I recommend monk, more turns = more buffs). For the other healer it's up to you but I'd reccomend Eirin for most fights.
That being said, a world of warning on having a "final team" in this game, at least insofar as boss battles are concerned. Elemental affinities are king in this game, and characters are easily crippled if all of their attacks belong to affinites a boss resists. The game offers ways around this (namely in the form of subclasses), but be warned you have to grind a bit more to compensate for the relatively lower power of said skills.
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But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.
Mmn, around lv80~100 Byakuren starts being fine enough with innate points, and you only get her at like, what, when you're lv60? Rinnosuke on the other hand needs them basically forever.
It does work well on Byakuren if you're fine with spending a tome of reincarnation on her later, though.
And yeah, sorry, Youmu's hot garbage until you get into plus disk level content. Even then she's still a little questionable until she Awakens, but she gets pretty good abilities at that point. You might consider just using someone else until then.
And you're right in that using Meiling as a tank here is a bit of a waste. She's a godly bulky attacker due to her 32% innate damage reduction passive to pair with her already bulky stats, and Mountain Breaker's damage formula is just obscene. Brilliant Light Gem is still great on spi-weak enemies, especially with it's fabulously low delay.
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1) If you want your stuff fully translated, hold off. Most of the plusses to it (hah) are post-game anyway, which is some good time away. It might even get a discount before then, depending on how sales on the site work (idk how they do).
Ok, will do then. I'll have to keep an eye out for that potentially.
2) Youmu in the base game is...um, bad. Yes. The offensive build is flat out worse than every other attacker just about, and the swap tank build is okay enough but Komachi does it better. The plus disc gives her a lot of love, but most of it is at the post-game level and I haven't had a chance to go into it yet. But she's not unusuable, which leads me into point 3.
Yeah, Youmu seems really hurt by the fact that MP actually matters, versus how SP became inconsequential eventually in LoT1. Makes me sad :(
I guess her spellcard stats don't help that fact either.
3) Just use them on whoever you like the most, they let you turn anyone you want into a force to be reckoned with.
But do not feed Rinnosuke the Training Manuals, in your party the only person who they should go to is Byakuren, who's incredibly skill point hungry.
Oh yeah, the sutras are really expensive aren't they? That's an excellent point. I'll give those to her then. Perhaps I'll feed Youmu up to an irrational level and then use reincarnation on her once I begin the postgame. And then bring her back in the Plus Disk if I ever do that (I've heard tell about her desperation strategy that could be fun).
4) Just decide what role you want them to fulfill, and then assign them a subclass and stats based off of that. There's no real need to be anxious as you can change level-up stats and subclasses at will - the only thing you need to be careful about are the items that boost stats or teach skills, as they take a rare and limited item to get back.
Yeah, that's a good point. That does lead into one more question - do you ever reach a point where you can gain more Tomes of Reincarnation? I know they're limited to some extent, but does that change in the plus disk at some point? I'm tempted to dump every training manual into Rinnosuke anyway right now, and then reincarnate them out onto Byakuren later.
Some added notes on this:
Everyone can work as an attacker if you're willing to apply various levels of grinding to them, but don't attempt to make them a support if they aren't already built for it, as almost all of the support subclasses are hot garbage at enabling people who don't already do the role in question to support.
For your current team, you need a tank, and another healer. Just go ahead and slap Komachi on, she works with the rest of your party and she'll tank anything the game has to offer. Go ahead and make her the Strategist instead of Byakuren too, since she'll be in slot 1 on the frontline all the time. This frees you upt o make Byakuren something else ( I recommend monk, more turns = more buffs). For the other healer it's up to you but I'd reccomend Eirin for most fights.
That being said, a world of warning on having a "final team" in this game, at least insofar as boss battles are concerned. Elemental affinities are king in this game, and characters are easily crippled if all of their attacks belong to affinites a boss resists. The game offers ways around this (namely in the form of subclasses), but be warned you have to grind a bit more to compensate for the relatively lower power of said skills.
Yeah, I understand the sentiment regarding "final team". I beat LoT1 (everything except the 30f bosses, too much grinding for my taste), and while I largely kept a core team, I did do a little bit of tinkering around the edges here and there.
Support-wise, yeah, I plan for that to basically 100% be Byakuren/Reimu - there's a lot of characters that seem to be able to be marginally self-reliant on buffs in this game as compared to LoT1 thanks to all the passives, so I don't see much point in passing out weak buff effects when I could just let people do weak buff effects in tandem with doing something else useful (or silly buff effects, Kogasa is so great early at being a rolling ball of death against TRR-weak bosses).
Komachi sounds good - I'll be using her for a while yet anyways to build up her BP for full recruitment, and she's been leaving a very good impression. I've been actually using her to tank some with Rinnosuke with full ATK for level up bonuses, and then throwing my strong elemental resist gear on her for appropriate FOEs / Bosses. I'm unsure if she'll be able to continue fulfilling that role with an ATK build, but we'll see. :V
On a final note, it seems like a missed opportunity that the Human Village -> Register Party option doesn't store Level Up Bonuses / Skill points spent. I'd love to register a Floor Clearing and a Boss Clearing version of the same party there.
Thanks again for the feedback. :V
Mmn, around lv80~100 Byakuren starts being fine enough with innate points, and you only get her at like, what, when you're lv60? Rinnosuke on the other hand needs them basically forever.
It does work well on Byakuren if you're fine with spending a tome of reincarnation on her later, though.
And yeah, sorry, Youmu's hot garbage until you get into plus disk level content. Even then she's still a little questionable until she Awakens, but she gets pretty good abilities at that point. You might consider just using someone else until then.
And you're right in that using Meiling as a tank here is a bit of a waste. She's a godly bulky attacker due to her 32% innate damage reduction passive to pair with her already bulky stats, and Mountain Breaker's damage formula is just obscene. Brilliant Light Gem is still great on spi-weak enemies, especially with it's fabulously low delay.
My poor Youmu. :ohdear:
Maybe I'll make her slot a rotating "character of the day" and let her come back when she's actually more worth using.
I'd be fine with spending a tome of reincarnation, especially if Plus Disk has a way to get more (or make them not matter because you can farm more of what you'd be reincarnating anyways to make it not matter).
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Hmm, I can't fight Eiki on 13f despite meeting the requirements (beat Glowing Azure Giant, have 72 achievements, Komachi has 1.3K battle points from grinding out the 3K battle achievement). Checked the JP wiki to confirm these are the only requirements. Is there something I could do to fix this?
Ended up being able to fight Eiki after grinding for a couple more achievements, dunno what happened there. But hey, I'll take it. Eiki fight ended up being a lot harder than I thought it would be (though not by too much), thought based on the JP wiki's comments about Spirit Decomposition that I'd need 200 DTH resistance on Tenshi, so I was underprepared for Last Judgement. Thought it'd be fine because the Glowing Azure Giant only hit 1K with Rasetsu Fist on Tenshi and 2K when buffed, but even with 250 SPI resistance and -50% ATK on Eiki, Last Judgement did 9K damage to Tenshi when she had 6K HP after being overhealed. Whoops! Sorely underestimated its strength there. Tenshi was hitting 0s on Eiki with World Creation Press after Concentrate anyway though, Iku was the MVP there.
But that's 13-15f done now! Current average level is 75 (I swear, I was evenly leveled when I entered 13f). I made another team change swapping Cirno out for Minoriko after realizing that, as nice as unresistable SPD debuffs sound, in the first place, how many bosses are immune to SPD debuffs with Reisen's Intense Vertigo? Looking at the main disc bosses, only Memorized Knowledge has debuff resistance greater than 100 in any stat, and that's just for MND (and targeting its MND seems really pointless). While that says nothing for plus disc, I do find it hard to justify using a frontline spot for Cirno instead of Reisen between Intense Vertigo and Discarder targeting all stats and not just SPD. If I'm going to put someone up for debuffing, versatility matters most, I think. Minoriko can heal and buff DEF/MND (and MAG passively) at the same time after Awakening with low delay, so I thought she'd be the most useful character to add. With the way Enhancer works with her post-Awakening skill, she can apply a total of +86% DEF/MND with Owotoshi Harvester, as the Sweet Potato Room effect that follows it applies Enhancer's Heart of Compassion. Pretty good for a 70% delay, and if Tenshi's on tank duty with Iku being the main attacker then there's no waste in not having an ATK buff (besides Enhancer's terrible ATK/MAG buff), so she can act as a viable substitute to Keine, temporarily or otherwise. Everyone besides Tenshi, Eiki, and Kogasa use MAG exclusively to attack anyway.
So far Tenshi's been turning out to be a very viable bulky attacker even pre-Awakening, provided a max ATK build. While she isn't seeing much in the way of taking 0s from attacks, most attacks still do about ~1K to her when she has about 4K HP with a First Aid Kit and an additional 3-4K when overhealed, and she's doing plenty of damage on her own thanks to her synergy skill with Iku. Iku has also been a great bulky attacker, taking damage similar to Tenshi while offering a completely different set of offensive actions, giving a lot of variety between the two of them. Right now I feel the biggest flaw is lacking in burst damage, instead focusing on dealing consistent damage over time, which makes bosses that heal themselves frequently, power up over time, or have party-wiping Concentrate phases a bit more difficult. But nothing insurmountable or anything.
With enough Stones of Awakening for every character (since I have a party of 10 currently), I've been looking into subclasses more since hitting 13f. Tenshi and Iku clearly need to switch around subclasses a lot depending on whether they're attacking (and how they're attacking) or supporting/tanking, but I think everyone else can comfortably fit one subclass for bosses and one for dungeon exploration (haven't put as much thought into the latter though).
Keine seems best suited as an Enhancer, since she doesn't really do anything besides buff. Dungeon exploration is definitely lacking, since she's got a decent (not amazing, but fairly decent) MAG stat but rather weak spell cards, and most subclass spell cards aren't really any stronger. Dunno what to do with her there, maybe Archmage when I get there.
Kogasa I made a Monk, primarily to reduce delays in attacking. Although the effect is kind of small, Dexterity Training's -10% ATB consumption effect puts A Rainy Night's Ghost Story from 59.5% delay to 63.55%, which is a small improvement. The 4% passive stat buff is nice too. For post-Awakening, I figure she can either rapidly buff herself (for a small amount) by taking turns with Speedy Formation Change after netting a TRR to abuse the 26% HP regen, or slow the loss of buffs if she's already been buffed substantially. Since Kogasa's TRR infliction rate is not particularly good, it seemed to make more sense to focus on increasing how quickly she can take shots at landing a TRR. If nothing else, it means more damage and more MND debuffing, too.
Minoriko, as mentioned above, was made an Enhancer. Nothing else seemed really suitable for her, since her biggest advantage is Owotoshi Harvester's low delay and her passive MAG buff skill. I somewhat want to look at alternative buffing methods like Elementalist, but it would probably be better to just switch her out instead of using something like that. For dungeon exploration, her low MAG stat seems like her biggest handicap, so I think something like Archmage will be most suitable (so that she isn't mono NTR too).
Aya was made a Magician to compensate for her somewhat high MP consumption rate compared to other characters. Usually, she gets off 2-3 times as many spell cards as other characters, and while the cost of Sarutahiko's Guidance is only 3 MP, it does add up when coupled with Divine Grandson's Advent and its 6 MP cost. Magic Transfer seems like a waste, but Magic Circuit has a low delay of 66% and effectively negates its own cost when used on the Magician. Besides that, I didn't really see anything else to do with Aya. For dungeon exploration, I'm thinking of maybe using Warrior to buff Wind God's Fan.
Eirin is a Healer, of course. I don't think any comment is needed there. For dungeon exploration, when she has People of the Moon, I'm thinking maybe Sorcerer or Transcendent. With 3 different elements on multi-target attacks, 50% defense piercing, and an excellent MP count and MAG stat, Eirin seems like a really good random encounter wiping character...but I can't really help but think of her exclusively as a healer.
Reisen's a Magician for MP efficiency, like Aya. Currently, Reisen has about 35 MP with +4 from main equipment and +6 from the Magician subclass, so she can actually start using Grand Patriot's Elixir and still have plenty of MP for Discarder. The +1 MP per turn negates the penalty of People of the Moon when it comes up, so Reisen's MP consumption is pretty stable. Haven't grabbed Magic Circuit, but I'm not really sure that's a good use of Reisen's time anyway...although it would help with long-term debuffing, it wastes time for short-term debuffing. Eirin's overheal roughly triples her HP though, so her durability is not bad at all. For dungeon exploration, I'm thinking maybe Archmage for spell card variety, since Reisen's only multi-target spell card is MYS (well, technically Gas-Woven Orb is NTR, but that's super weak).
Sanae's an Enhancer (that makes the third one). Gives her a stronger, healing Miracle Fruit and a DEF/MND buffing Yasaka's Divine Wind. Not really much else to say on the merits there. Similar to Minoriko, I was tempted to look at something else for Sanae to do. Unlike Minoriko, Sanae has a very good reason to stay in, at least for post-Awakening, due to her MP recovery skill, so maybe going Elementalist or something might actually be worthwhile for her. It'd give her something to do when nobody needs buffing or healing, and the delay on Elementalist buffs is extremely low at 80% so it can help her take turns for MP recovery. Sanae also buffs Sword of Hisou and other SPI attacks, but that's strictly for SPI weak bosses. For dungeon exploration, Sorcerer would buff Moses' Miracle since it's a row attack, so I'm thinking that'd be quite effective.
Iku's currently most commonly used as a Sorcerer right now (for all the MAG buffs and her normal attack buff), but I'm also looking at Strategist for when she's playing support. Since Tenshi or Iku will always be on the field at a given moment (unless they get knocked out), whichever of the two is least useful seems like the most viable option to make a Strategist. Post-Awakening Tenshi would be most appreciative of having a Strategist in the front, since she's very reliant on having all of her stats (besides MAG) buffed, and slowing buff decay is invaluable for that. Besides Sorcerer, I'm also strongly considering Transcendent for the combination of offensive and defensive bonuses it provides. Iku puts all of her stats (besides ATK) to good use, so she seems like a perfect fit for it. Thinking that, for bosses where normal attacks are a better offensive option, Sorcerer would be the best fit, and for WND, Transcendent would be better. For dungeon exploration, Archmage might be the best option for spell card variety, as I do find her only having a WND element MT spell card to be a bit of a handicap. Archmage is somewhat appealing for giving Iku spell cards of other elements to use on bosses too, but with their delays, I think it'd be better to just let another character handle them.
Tenshi's been getting switched around constantly, unlike the other characters. I've had her as a Guardian, Strategist, and Warrior primarily, but of those three, Guardian was simply not paying attention to how it worked exactly. Looking at all the subclasses, I noticed that Guardian is actually rather bad at tanking compared to Transcendent (which isn't available yet) and even somewhat inferior to Strategist. Since Absolute Defensive Line only comes into play when there are less than 4 characters, a Guardian normally only has the -8% damage reduction active and decent stat bonuses to HP/DEF/MND. A Transcendent, on the other hand, has a -10% damage reduction and higher stats in HP/DEF/MND, making it strictly superior for the sole purpose of tanking. Strategist also provides a -10% damage reduction, but to the whole party. It does have lower HP/DEF/MND, but with the lowered buff decay, having a Strategist as the tank actually makes a lot more sense than a Guardian. So that makes Guardian's real advantages lying in Shield Bash's excellent SHK application rate and Efficient Concentration's combo potential with Concentration oriented strategies (or just MP recovery).
So with that aside, Tenshi's mostly being used as a Strategist in the tanking role and a Warrior in an offensive role. Later on, Transcendent (for the same reasons as Iku), Swordmaster and Ninja are intended to be added to subclasses I switch around on Tenshi, depending on what kind of attacks she needs to use. For taking advantage of her Keypoints of Spirit post-Awakening, I'm thinking Transcendent for attacking with NTR and SPI, Warrior for PHY (normal attacks) and FIR, Swordmaster for CLD, and Ninja for DRK. For WND and MYS, Iku handles them better than Tenshi (and there are no ATK based subclass spell cards for MYS anyway), so going Strategist would make more sense, since Iku won't be one. If Tenshi needs to tank regardless of enemy weakness and Iku can't attack the enemy reliably, then another character can handle most of those elements, with PHY and FIR being the most lacking ones (no one has any spell cards of that element in the team at all). PHY feels like the most lacking element, without any spell cards besides Shield Bash (which is really lame as a purely offensive spell card) and nobody that uses ATK and possesses a normal attack buffing skill like Iku, it might not be viable to take advantage of PHY weaknesses at all. Gotta see how well Tenshi's normal attack does against those things. Memorized Knowledge was a thing, but it also has a much easier to exploit DRK weakness (Kogasa did 43K with TRR boosted A Rainy Night's Ghost Story, had 3-4 levels on it though) and merely 100 DEF anyway.
Anyway...for the last three, Eiki, Maribel, and Miko, I figure just make them Transcendents and that's it. Eiki has Majesty and solid overall stats, Maribel can buff all her stats to a great degree, and Miko has her Maintenance equivalent and her 20% buff enhancement/120% buff cap skill, so they all seem like they benefit more from having higher stats than anything else. Maybe something else for dungeon exploring (at least for Eiki and Miko, Maribel has Liberated Abilities so she should be fine with just that), like Archmage for spell card variety. Though, I say "Archmage for spell card variety" for like half these characters. Not much variety if 3/4ths of the party has a CLD or a DRK MT attack. Kind of a problem that there are a lot of MAG focused characters that only have 1 element to use on their MT spell cards (Minoriko, Reisen, Iku, Eiki, and Miko all fit this description).
As a much simpler list, character + subclasses are
Keine / Enhancer
Kogasa / Monk
Minoriko / Enhancer
Aya / Magician
Eirin / Healer
Reisen / Magician
Sanae / Enhancer
Iku / Sorcerer/Strategist/Transcendent
Tenshi / Warrior/Strategist/Transcendent/Swordmaster/Ninja
Eiki / Transcendent
Maribel / Transcendent
Miko / Transcendent
That's what I'm currently thinking about for bosses anyway.
Probably won't update on gameplay progress until Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi fight, which I'd like to record depending on how bad the game lags. Generally plays at about 50 FPS in combat without changing any settings. Hoping to see a substantial enough improvement to record with adequate quality. Action games lose a lot with just a 5 FPS loss, but an RPG should be fine with something like that. If that works out, then I'll probably record Enhanced Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi, Evil Dragon Yamata no Orochi, and probably every boss after that. But that's still a ways away.
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[kogasa] For post-Awakening, I figure she can either rapidly buff herself (for a small amount) by taking turns with Speedy Formation Change after netting a TRR to abuse the 26% HP regen, or slow the loss of buffs if she's already been buffed substantially.
Actually, post-awakening you'd sub Healer to significantly increase her passive heal amount to where it's great for formation spamming even without any TRR present, IMO. You'll run your own buffs down spamming turns even as Monk; it just slows decay... unless your buffs are already concerningly nonexistent. Eventually you'll grab the special class, though, that includes Healer's passive turn heal but also passively buffs all stats by 4% for everyone and grants huge increases to the user's affinities, making HP tanking easier, as though her regen wouldn't be enough.
At that point support Kogasa should be pretty silly. Good synergy with other HP tanks too, a lot of people are good at it postgame (Mokou, awakened Minoriko, potentially Byakuren?, etc)
Minoriko probably is best suited to subbing for more support via Herbalist (or Magician, if that's your thing), because she has craaazy MP flow and owotoshi harvester is strong enough without enhancer already. Just having a single target heal and buff gets kiiiiiinda underwhelming when other characters get MT ones... at least until her awakening, but, that's mega late-game and she'll still probably want more to do with all that mp flow. Placebo Effect and Herb of Awakening are really useful skills to have around, because Sanae and Byakuren aren't -always- available to keep buffs up.
...Sanae can be built a lot of ways indeed, though @.@
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Ah yeah, I guess 12% heals on Healer Kogasa turns would be acceptably strong for dealing with MT attacks that don't deal significant damage. Hm, though...I kinda wanna emphasize Kogasa's offensive potential as well...probably will need to mess around with Kogasa to see how she works out post-Awakening. Kogasa's a bit trickier than the other characters since she doesn't do anything unique, but she does offer the strongest MND debuff, good healing if she gets a TRR, and Sheer Force to help with that stuff (and great damage potential assuming TRR). I may just want to use Maribel for MT healing and Reisen for MND debuffing regardless...Sheer Force is a very appealing skill, but I can't really decide what to do with Kogasa. Maybe I should look into a different character...
I haven't really paid too much attention to the unimplemented subclasses
since much of plus disc has yet to be added, like several floors
, so there's really no telling how long until that stuff will be relevant. Might have like 1-2 bosses left for all anyone knows (besides the game developer). Did go through the trouble of checking up what was datamined yesterday though, took a little while to find that stuff again. Dragon God's Power
looks like the most useful of the 1 person subclasses by far. Would really like to use Divine Protection of the Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi, but Tenshi already has a solid SPI attack (although Murakumo's Slash is stronger and has superior delay compared to Sword of Hisou), and while Iku being able to ignore MND completely at -50% MND makes Start of Heavenly Demise look incredibly appealing, it's super inefficient for MP and has horrible delay, so idk...*WINNER*
will depend entirely on the numbers, not really sure what I'd do with it.
For Minoriko, yeah, right now she's just kinda...there. I mean, I've only done Yukari and Eiki since making the decision to swap her in, but there's genuinely nothing she does right now that I wouldn't rather use Sanae for. But she does have one of the best max MP totals in the game, an excellent MP recovery, and skills that bolster that, as well as the MAG buffing passive. So maybe having something extra to do would be better...it's just that I'm always running into the problem of "why have x in the frontline instead of y" for so many things. I'm probably sounding really perfectionist, but I would like to figure out the "best" team prioritizing the Hisouten duo. This is the first goal for a video game I've set where I've actually solicited advice and input, so it's like...really complicated, if I can't figure it out by myself.
Honestly, so far the only characters I feel are essential are
-Keine for low cost MT buffs with low delay (Ran has way worse delays and much higher MP costs, and I don't really need everyone to receive buffs)
-Aya for the guaranteed first turn (can either act on her own or switch someone in at 75% ATB), 75% delay SPD buffs, and Divine Grandson's Advent (which I haven't been getting as much mileage on as I'd like due to using mostly lowish delay attacks), plus best SPD in the game by far
-Eirin for ST healing (having a backup healer helps a lot though)
-Reisen for debuffs (I don't really like Hina debuffing the party, Tenshi/Iku at least need strong buffs on them, reducing those buffs is too much trouble)
-Eiki, Maribel, and Miko for their backrow passive bonuses (Maribel also covers healing and is the most valuable of the three)
-Iku and Tenshi (duh)
9/12 party slots. And of those, Miko and Eiki might just be replaceable (especially Eiki) just for their backrow support not being strong enough to justify using and not really doing anything for support that's worth mentioning otherwise. So that's at least 3, up to 5 replaceable slots. Of those, I think Sanae is the most relevant pick, and I certainly have found myself using her a lot, but she isn't essential by any means. Just really good. Kogasa and Minoriko, though...definitely replaceable. But at that point, it's really hard to identify any characters that would be more useful. because there's always negative points or "why do that with them instead of another character". Really tricky to figure out the best route here.
At the very least, I can say that I really do like the basic team concept, it's just optimizing it that's such a headache.
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Well I made a thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC-8cpWQcgI
Not really sure about the quality, but I can't really do better. Also, uh...might not be very interesting to watch, idk. This was the first boss I could actually do something like this on, since the 1st phase is really tame. I'm a pretty defensive/patient player so yeah, 17 minute fight. Did several runs to try to optimize the strategy involved, don't think I can improve on it with the current party composition. I'm at brave level (or rather, the average level of the party is 100 not counting the empty slots) and am trying to match hard mode's (level * 1.2) library cap (unless I misread it), but still...the fight seems rather long? I mean it is the final boss, but I'm stuck wondering if I'm doing something wrong. Probably just worrying too much, it's inevitable that something would take a long time with a defensive playstyle, but I wouldn't mind redoing the fight to try alternate strategies. I'm gonna be a nutcase and farm it for stat gems anyway, that was my 7th or 8th kill.
Anyway, any input on the video for future videos would be really appreciated. Like whether or not I should show stats before a fight or put captions to translate dialogue (idk how far the EN patch even is, haven't looked one bit into it), and of course strategies and stuff. I think I'll be making videos of other bosses regularly as a sort of record/discussion thing. Is it normal for almost a week to pass without anyone posting?
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Looks good enough to me (I liked the Kogasa and Iku combo part), I personally prefer when they show the stats, since it gives you a better idea of how strong or difficult the boss is.
Also, I noticed that you had Tenshi switch around your frontline when she had nothing to do to proc Keystone Formation, you may want to include an Instant Attacker in your team for that; You can have Tenshi switch a character out for them, they will immediately get a turn on being switched in, and then you can switch them out for the original character, this allows you to restore the first character's ATB to 7500 (while also giving you the Keystone buff).
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Huh hadn't thought of combining Keystone Formation with an Instant Attack character, that sounds like a really good idea, and I kinda do want to swap Minoriko for another character. So of the Instant Attack skill holders in the game...Momiji, Chen, and Mystia...think I'll try Momiji, has a great PHY spell card (best options with current party are Shield Bash and the basic attack), bulky attacker with good SPD and delays, enormous 50% passive bonus to hit, gets +10% SPD per turn, and has a synergy bonus with Aya post-Awakening. Lots of things besides just instant Attack going for her that might come in handy.
Now if only I could find an excuse to fit Youmu in, then I'd have all the sword wielding characters in the party.
So I'll swap Minoriko for Momiji and start working on another run where I show stats at the beginning. I think with Momiji in that would make every character fill a valuable niche, feel like that'll be the final revision that needs to be made. Thanks for the input! Also yeah Iku and Kogasa combo really well, I feel dumb for calling Kogasa replaceable a few days ago.
Tangential, but I realized that my worry about the video length was misplaced, it's primarily due to the frame rate being so bad while recording. With a consistent 30-45f throughout in the recorded run, the fight would have taken about 12 minutes if it was running at normal speed, which is still longish, but sensibly so. Think I should probably record at a higher volume too, compared to most other recordings of the game the sound is decidedly much quieter. It'd be bad if it was too loud, but I think I went too far in the other direction.
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Kind of a dumb question. But I never touched plus disc for 2 yet, not even the trial. Is it strictly a post game kinda thing, should I start a new game fresh to enjoy it fully (I don't mind losing my progress), I mean I can see floors b1-b5 on the wiki, and the new characters added. but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to progress towards it in any kind of specific way.
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It's all postgame, apart from some character tweaks. IIRC you have to beat final boss v2 before it opens up?
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It's all postgame, apart from some character tweaks. IIRC you have to beat final boss v2 before it opens up?
Unless it was different in the trial, v2 is not necessary. I never beat him and was able to check out the first floor in the trial.
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AFAIK you just need all 48 main game characters for it, which means you have to do most of the postgame anyhow (at least the 12 Formidable Shadows and the Deformed Bosses to get Renko and Maribel)
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It's been awhile since the last update but yeah, I think the plus disk is really enjoyable since it turns some mediocre characters into different kinds of powerhouses. When everyone is super good, you can think less and, with a peace of mind, pour all that resources into your best girl. Now if only Koishi gets some more damage.....
I think you have to beat the sword 1 time. I could enter the basement before I even fight the boss rush. Of course the mobs 1-2 shot my tanks at that point and I couldn't really go through unless I grind up some more.
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Is there a summary of the character rebalances? or is it mostly the new 'awakening' skills they get or whatever they're called? I'm still kinda bitter to what they did to remi. I know she wasn't exactly the most popular character in lot1 but I found her to be an mvp in my party so damn often for my own personal playstyle, and she just kinda... well she just kinda isn't anymore in 2. Particularly with Kasen who not only has more moves, but has one that's pretty much better in every way, plus has better general stats, plus levels faster. She doesn't have majesty but she has another allstat up thing, not that an allstatup thing is needed THAT much on a character like remi who has curse of vlad tepes anyway (which is less good in lot2 since allbuffs are far more common).
I see she got a nuke-all, but that's not what she needs imo (I mean it's what she would have needed in 1, but it's not what she needs to kinda maintain her schtik in 2 that she had in 1).
Basically, in 1, I found that with her buff, she could damage enemies that were the 'most people hit for 0' types like helbelderes or whatever they're called. Yeah sure silent selene did better, as did megawatt cannon , and horai barrage. But it could also do the job long before the 'normal' nukes could. But in 2. it's just a 0 nuke like all the others for those enemies, shame!
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They also included some new non-awakening passives on certain characters, these are all very expensive, but grant some interesting efects or plain stat boosts that helps make some previously weaker characters more viable. Also, some characters can now level their offensive spellcards up to level 7/9, mostly to make them more viable offensively later in the game. All of the changes are already mentioned as such on their respective character sections in the wiki.
Regarding Remi, post-awakening she does get Piercing Attack which means at the very least 20% of the damage she does will ignore DEF and go through anyway. Vampiric Attack also heals her and increases Spear of the Gungnir's damage.
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Yeah, it's unfortunate, but some characters are only really worth using after awakening, like Remilia. Vampiric Attack buffs all her stats and increases damage of single-target attacks apart from the obviously nice HP drain, and Proof of Kinship is a wonderful passive on all family characters. It helps that Sakuya got buffed too, even before her awakening. Her new skill increases her ATK by 1/3 of her current SPD buff; this should stack with ATK buffs so you get even more increase, plus stacking w/family passive, so it's not bad at all, and Meiling is godly, Flan got nerfed with gambler's nerf but her skills also got BUFFED... (Starbow Break now ignores half defense?!)... Patchouli is still the weak link. At least it's easier to get HP gems and make her survivable in plus, even if you don't want to go all the way and give her a first aid kit.
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So I've beat the Orochi and the the Giga Orochi on B10F, and all my dudes are around level 450 or so. I've done a quick check around all the floors but I don't see much else left to do - am I missing anything, or am I actually done until 3peso patches in the post-game?
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I'm wondering, should I switch Patchouli out for Flandre as my nuker?
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So I've beat the Orochi and the the Giga Orochi on B10F, and all my dudes are around level 450 or so. I've done a quick check around all the floors but I don't see much else left to do - am I missing anything, or am I actually done until 3peso patches in the post-game?
Yeah, all you've really got to do now is get down to 100F (I think?) in the infinite corridor if you haven't. There's several more floors of postgame (and waaay more corridor- the super deep parts are likely the mega endgame) but 3peso still needs to actually patch it in.
I'm wondering, should I switch Patchouli out for Flandre as my nuker?
Patchouli's always looked pretty underwhelming in LoT2, to be honest. The main thing she's got going for her is mp longevity for random fights, but she's so slow that I dunno if she's actually much good for that. Unless you're fielding most of the SDM to bolster her MAG/MND I don't think she's worth using. Flan actually has pretty high damage potential, on the other hand, even without SDM.
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Another thing that makes Patchouli good is that Grand Incantation + personal spell that targets weakness can potentially take out either 1/2 or 1/4 of a boss's HP, which is incredible unless if you have other Game Breakers supercharged with equipments/skills/items of course. I think she still needs Aya for support.
Dunno about her usefulness in Plus Disk tho.
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Anybody knows which characters or subclasses provide bonuses from the backrow? thinking of just using 9 members,while the other 3 are passive filler and to use the full party exp bonus
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Maribel, Shikieiki, and Miko are the big backrow bonus people. Other than that it's just stuff like drop rate increases. For the most part you have to get to the corridor awakenings for the back row bonuses, though, soooo, mega lategame.
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Maribel, Shikieiki, and Miko are the big backrow bonus people. Other than that it's just stuff like drop rate increases. For the most part you have to get to the corridor awakenings for the back row bonuses, though, soooo, mega lategame.
which ones raise drop rate or money from backrow? rinnosuke and?...
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I just realized that lot could benefit from a relatively simple mod. One where damage formulas are just placed in the descriptions of the spellcards in-game. Or is that just me? I kinda have a thing where I like transparency in my games.
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which ones raise drop rate or money from backrow? rinnosuke and?...
Komachi raises money
Nazrin and Nitori (the latter post-awakening only) raise droprate
But frankly, assuming the postgame endless corridor is how I think it is, I don't think droprate will be as important as it would've been in THL1. As for money drop, it would obviously be more important, but only insofar as including certain characters doesn't hamstring your ability to clear corridors.
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So I just noticed something interesting while doing a quick check on the JP wiki's page that lists various formulas (https://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/177.html), regarding some spell card damage calculation. Apparently, some utilize the user's DEF and MND as part of the damage calculation, added to ATK/MAG. Spell cards that were specified as examples were the Guardian subclass' Shield Bash (DEF) and Minoriko's personal spell cards (MND). I don't recall seeing anything that suggested such a mechanic existed in the EN wiki or the spell card formula dump on the first post, so this was a bit surprising. Decided to test it with Tenshi on the Small Kedama on 1f see what kind of numbers would occur. Had Girl of Bhava-agra and Shield Bash maxed, no modifiers otherwise. Did 5 attacks for each test, not exactly thorough but enough to see some variance.
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 25779-30628
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (80% buff): 29143-33190
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (80% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 43926-51376
Max ATK, 10179 ATK (80% buff) + 6534 DEF (80% buff): 47853-53726
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 11682 DEF (0% buff): 18918-21621
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 11682 DEF (80% buff): 24409-28004
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (80% buff) + 11682 DEF (0% buff): 31554-33318
Max DEF, 5694 ATK (80% buff) + 11682 DEF (80% buff): 37170-40083
No ATK/DEF, 5694 ATK (0% buff) + 6534 DEF (0% buff): 14714-17019
Probably sufficient evidence to confirm that DEF affects Shield Bash's damage, but I'm not really keen enough to figure out how exactly it does that. It doesn't seem especially important based on how much the damage increases, but it'd be nice to know the exact formula if that's possible. There might be other spell cards that are bolstered by defensive stats too.
Was this something that was already known? Might just be late on this lol
Unrelated, but what I was checking that page for (and couldn't find) was something like a formula for calculating hit rate. Is that something available?
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Nice find, all I can tell from doing a quick test is that this works in the base game as well as the plus disc and it seems at least in shield bashs case it only applies starting at spell level 2. I dont know if the def influence rises with even higher skill levels and now I'm too lazy to test it too, sorry.
I understand nothing on the japanese wiki, let me ask you or anyone else, did you find any other spells that have def/mnd influence, or was it just those two?
(I haven't seen anything about a hit rate formula)
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That was definitely not known... interesting. Perhaps offensive Minoriko is more passable than I thought? Well, she's still probably more suited to supporting, but.
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Nice find, all I can tell from doing a quick test is that this works in the base game as well as the plus disc and it seems at least in shield bashs case it only applies starting at spell level 2. I dont know if the def influence rises with even higher skill levels and now I'm too lazy to test it too, sorry.
I understand nothing on the japanese wiki, let me ask you or anyone else, did you find any other spells that have def/mnd influence, or was it just those two?
(I haven't seen anything about a hit rate formula)
Oh yeah sorry, the description of Shield Bash on the JP wiki's subclass page actually specifies that it applies DEF to the formula at level 2+. Nothing was specified about Minoriko's spell cards beyond that they use MND though, no leveling mentioned or anything. The page only mentions Shield Bash and Minoriko's spell cards, and from the wording, it may be that (at least in the base game) those are the only spell cards that are affected by the user's defensive stats. It's really not thorough though.
The wording on the page reads something like
"For some spells, the DEF and MND of the user is added to the damage.
(DEF is Guardian's Shield Bash, MND is all of Minoriko's personal spells)"
Mostly, it's just knowing that this is a thing at all.
EDIT: Ohhh, I see now
Shield Bash
-------------------------
MP : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 4)
Target : Single Foe
Element(s): PHY
Delay : 50.00%
Formula : 120% ATK - 50% DEF
Multiplier: 1.20
00C8 : ((level - 1) * 10)
Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.
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Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.
...wait, so at level 5, Autumn Sky would factor in 240% mnd into it's damage? >.> That sounds a bit much. Ah well, time to do testing in game... when I don't feel like taking a nap, at least XD
Since no one probably puts any levels into Minoriko's attack spells, it's certainly something that could have never been noticed...
edit:Welp. I tested. Minoriko did plenty of damage even with next to no magic stat, and once I pumped up both stats... she only did slightly more damage in a MAG build than she did in a MND build. That's... kinda interesting, actually. Of course, her damage still wasn't all that high either way, but.
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Ah, when I said "same thing" I should have been more specific. It's the "same" variable, but it only says "60" and "72" for those two spell cards, there is no level modifier, sorry for the confusion there.
But yeah, it seems that it's more for ensuring that full DEF/MND builds can deal worthwhile damage. Like with the Tenshi test I did, Shield Bash was doing about 25% less damage with a full DEF build than a full ATK build (and that's with Girl of Bhava-agra active, which favors ATK a lot). I'd imagine the gap for Minoriko's spell cards is smaller since she factors in a lot more of her MND into the formula, and her MND stat is higher than Tenshi's (or most character's in general) DEF.
And from what I can tell with some test calculations to see if I understand the damage formula correctly, it seems that the DEF/MND stats are added like ATK and MAG are for composite spell cards. So for Minoriko's spell cards, they should look something like
Autumn Sky: (168% MAG + 84% MND) - 70% MND
Warm Color Harvest: (256% MAG + 115.2% MND) - 80% MND
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I see, I see. Well, that makes Guardian more relevant of a subclass, since you can get some damage out of tanks that way... if you'd really rather do that than use support moves with them. It also makes Guardian Kogasa a little more relevant for using on SHK-vulnerable bosses; you can build her as a tank and STILL get some damage, while having Sheer Force shk from a high-accuracy shk move.
And makes Minoriko easier to use since you can keep her in a MND build and still get use out of her in random fights... and a little in ntr-weak bosses, maybe. Since she's viable looking after corridor awakening, that's nice for endgame, where you're probably not bothering to swap between mag/mnd builds due to equipment too, etc etc etc.
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Stuck at Futo, can I get some help ? been trying to use Chen and Momiji but Futo heal herself faster than damage dealt.
Any character recommendation ? also I never built a 'bulky attacker' so what's the usual setup, full points in HP transcendant with ATK equipments ?
Edit :
Ah well... I finally beat her, took me around 40min battle duration with Shou Komachi Byakuren Nazrin/Remilia, swap were mostly used for ATB control and buffs... had previously made the mistake of letting Komachi on 1st position which would let Futo recover tons of HP with her draining spell.
However Nazrin have ... absurd amounts of bonuses (for grinding) so I doubt it's a reliable strategy with a decent one...
(http://i.imgur.com/ZyVRCrh.jpg)
Lucky I got the 2 drops and TP MAG treasure orbs, would never fight her again.
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"For some spells, the DEF and MND of the user is added to the damage.
(DEF is Guardian's Shield Bash, MND is all of Minoriko's personal spells)"
Mostly, it's just knowing that this is a thing at all.
EDIT: Ohhh, I see now
Minoriko's spell cards have the same thing too, listed as 00CC. For Autumn Sky, it's a 60, and for Warm Color Harvest, it's 72. I think it's % of DEF/MND used. So for Shield Bash, at level 5 it uses 40% of the user's DEF. These are the only spell cards in the main game that aren't scripted to set it to 0.
Ah, when I said "same thing" I should have been more specific. It's the "same" variable, but it only says "60" and "72" for those two spell cards, there is no level modifier, sorry for the confusion there.
But yeah, it seems that it's more for ensuring that full DEF/MND builds can deal worthwhile damage. Like with the Tenshi test I did, Shield Bash was doing about 25% less damage with a full DEF build than a full ATK build (and that's with Girl of Bhava-agra active, which favors ATK a lot). I'd imagine the gap for Minoriko's spell cards is smaller since she factors in a lot more of her MND into the formula, and her MND stat is higher than Tenshi's (or most character's in general) DEF.
And from what I can tell with some test calculations to see if I understand the damage formula correctly, it seems that the DEF/MND stats are added like ATK and MAG are for composite spell cards. So for Minoriko's spell cards, they should look something like
Autumn Sky: (168% MAG + 84% MND) - 70% MND
Warm Color Harvest: (256% MAG + 115.2% MND) - 80% MND
I think that I remember that part of Mino's spells from when people were datamining the game. From what I remember, Mino's healing spell also has said composite nature(I think that it said -60 as what it draws, which would make sense if it was a healing spell, as I do remember that healing spells have a negative value in order to heal), meaning that it's actually the strongest single target heal spell in the game due to that nature(which makes sense, given that she had the best single target healing spell in LoT1 as well).
Also, given that she can buff her MND easily, that means that she can easily increase her healing and damage output that way(although the MAG influence on said spells means that MAG is not something that you can ignore if you want her to use said spells effectively). For me, this tells me that her corridor skill of "using one spell and gaining the effects of the other" would become far more potent than I had originally thought, as MND serves as a defensive and offensive stat for her.
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Oh yeah, Sweet Potato Room does have a -60 for the MND thing. So that makes it a 120% MAG + 60% MND heal. That's pretty neat. Seems a bit odd that this information wasn't added to the EN wiki if it was noticed during datamining, but ah well.
Speaking of datamining, how does that process go about for extracting spell card formulas and enemy AI/stats? Been kinda interested in checking that stuff out for Plus Disc content, but it's not presently available. It's really convenient for planning runs to be able to calculate how much damage is done/taken by particular spell cards without having to figure it out in-game.
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Oh yeah, Sweet Potato Room does have a -60 for the MND thing. So that makes it a 120% MAG + 60% MND heal. That's pretty neat. Seems a bit odd that this information wasn't added to the EN wiki if it was noticed during datamining, but ah well.
To be fair, no one realized what those numbers on 00CC were for back then.
If it is all right with everyone, I could add this info directly to the wiki now. I just need to confirm that the formulas that are stated here are accurate.
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Is this normal that the "boost" buff from herb of awakening and Maribel's barrier is still in effect for 2 attacks ? I tried with grand incantation but it disappear after 1 attack despite being similar effects.
Never noticed yet, testing back it works in ver1.203, trial rev.C and plus disk 1.103.
Herbalist seems unfair compared to these characters passives.
Edit :
Pharmacologist is a good subclass for tanks with spare turns. Use Herb of Excitement on whoever's about to attack (It lasts for two of their turns for 36% extra damage at max) or use Placebo Effect on people with like 50~70% buffs to keep them high up. Incense Treatment isn't much good- it's highly situational and even then it costs 5 points instead of 3 to level, and is really costly to use until maxed.
Ooh I see I think it should be put in the subclass or bug section, seems like a pretty vital information.
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Honestly, that's something I completely forgot about. It kind of makes sense when you think about it, though; the first turn of Grand Incantation is spent applying the buff to yourself. If you have an herbalist Boost themselves, I'm sure it means they only have one turn to use it. (Of course, no offensive character should be an herbalist anyway)
Grand Incantation does still beat it, though. You get 240% damage from two turns (or 240% heal) wheras Herb of Excitement takes 3 turns (the buffer's turn, and two of the attacker's turns) for 272% damage. 240% for two turns, or 276% for three. The fact that people with Grand Incantation honestly -need- the boost to help deal good damage (plus the hassle of needing 2 turns for it as well) whilst Herbalist will hit anyone is a thing, though.
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If you have an herbalist Boost themselves, I'm sure it means they only have one turn to use it. (Of course, no offensive character should be an herbalist anyway)
Did a quick check, this is exactly how it works. If an Herbalist uses Herb of Awakening on themselves, they only get one turn of the boost. But it lasts two turns if they use it on another character.
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Yeah. Boost status lasts two turns, but if you use it on yourself, the turn spent applying it counts as one of the two.
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Honestly, that's something I completely forgot about. It kind of makes sense when you think about it, though; the first turn of Grand Incantation is spent applying the buff to yourself. If you have an herbalist Boost themselves, I'm sure it means they only have one turn to use it. (Of course, no offensive character should be an herbalist anyway)
Grand Incantation does still beat it, though. You get 240% damage from two turns (or 240% heal) wheras Herb of Excitement takes 3 turns (the buffer's turn, and two of the attacker's turns) for 272% damage. 240% for two turns, or 276% for three. The fact that people with Grand Incantation honestly -need- the boost to help deal good damage (plus the hassle of needing 2 turns for it as well) whilst Herbalist will hit anyone is a thing, though.
Wait, but if that's the case, wouldn't this be better for people who can attack at least twice in a row?
...Youmu is sad panda... :(
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Well, the boost doesn't go away if you switch them out, so that's not necessarily a problem.
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Youmu kinda needs to concentrate before every attack though, since without Swordmaster's Spirit her damage is kinda crappy :V.
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Youmu has to have full HP to get the damage boost (regeneration ability helps, but yeah), and it's only +50%; it's good for saving up on panic phases ESPECIALLY because it STACKS with "Boost" effects (204% damage w.max herb of awakening if they stack multiplicatively instead of additively), but concentrating between every attack will just effectively REDUCE her damage by 25%. I guess on the flipside though, she does have Meikyo Shisui to additionally help encourage the playstyle. It might work out with Monk to further stack passive buffs and healing, and it's delay reduction can rival guardian since it also procs on the attacks (Less reduction, but paired with better other passives).
...uh, I got carried away there, but tl;dr, Youmu will still do more damage attacking twice in a row than fitting in a concentrate. Her max MP starts low but increases comparatively fast, she can afford to do it occasionally- at the least when the second, non-concentrated move is Present Life Slash.
Of course, her playstyle probably notably changes after you Awaken her, which is where she actually manages to look like a not-totally-dubious choice.
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Oh I mostly use her as a glass-cannon-that-can-occasionally-take-a-weak-hit: switch her in to concentrate and attack and then immediately switch her out. With the Guardian's Efficient Concentration and a few SPD buffs she can bail out before getting hit most of the time so the full HP requirement is kinda moot (Regeneration gives her back exactly that 20% by the time she attacks again, not counting backrow regen).
If I were to attack twice I would either need to wait on the delay of whichever attack I used or do two additional switches (switch her out and in again), it also increases her up time in battle as long as I'm using Slash of Eternity since you can recover to full MP with one single concentrate even without equipping MP regen Equipment. Also helps keeping buffs with Meikyo Shisui proccing every 2 turns.
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For some strange reasons it seems like Komachi have an high void resistance. Any other char have this ?
Tried some all-resist equipments from the characters I use but none achieved blue damage from space compression.
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Yes, it's documented somewhere earlier in the thread. Some characters have resistance/weakness to VOI elemental damage. Some enemies do as well but it's very rare. Maribel is extremely VOI resistant, iirc. I think only a few were weak to it, though... Kaguya?
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The JP wiki has some (all? it doesn't say anything about untested characters) cases documented, but most everything is speculated about because it's difficult to acquire an exact read on something you can't actually see. Here's what it has (page is https://www54.atwiki.jp/thlabyroth2/pages/177.html)
Red numbers, confirmed weakness
Kaguya: +20-30% (would be equivalent to 76-83 resistance)
Red numbers, but appear to be resistant?
Nazrin, Eirin, Eiki: -33% (equivalent to 150 resistance)
Blue numbers, confirmed resistance
Komachi: -40% (equivalent to 166 resistance)
Parsee, Flandre, Koishi, Akyuu: -50% (equivalent to 200 resistance)
Maribel: -75% (equivalent to 400 resistance)
There's also speculation but no confirmation that Eiki's Cleansed Crystal Mirror skill may be able to reduce VOI damage. The numbers may not be exact, but they seem to be accurately determined estimates, even if they aren't 100% on the dot.
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So I'm finally making my way through the second game, nearly at 7F and got my first stone of awakening. Not really sure how to build for subclasses yet, don't really have a clear direction for any character. Would appreciate some ideas on decent subclassing strats and builds for people to start implementing so early on. I stuck a Monk on Komachi to aid regen to see what it'd be like, but I still need to buy the extra regen skill. However I think I'm regretting doing that first, as I'm still using Rinno for his drop passives and probably should've classed him as something that can actually attack. For now he's just relatively dead weight except that he can tank a few hits because I boosted his HP a lot. Next stone I'll do something with him.
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A quick tip for you about that. You can reset your skill points and get the stone of awakening back at the library. You don't need to use a Tome of Reincarnation to do so.
As for suggestions about character builds, here's a place on the wiki to help with that. https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Character-Building_Suggestions (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Character-Building_Suggestions) It's a work in progress, but it does have stuff on Rinno and Komachi.
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A quick tip for you about that. You can reset your skill points and get the stone of awakening back at the library. You don't need to use a Tome of Reincarnation to do so.
Wait... You can?
How?
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When you do the reset, it will first ask if you really want to reset the character. After you say yes to that, it will ask if you want to use a tome of reincarnation. Say no, and you will not use one up. The skill points will be reset and the stone of awakening will be refunded. The tome of reincarnation is only for if you want to pull out all of the Library investment that you have put into a character, or if there's a stat tome or gem that you want back from a character that you've used them on.
And given that this seems to be a common question, I think that someone needs to write this into the wiki. Unless anyone else is willing to do so before me, I'll write it into the character building section.
Edit: Also, there's this: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Gameplay (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Gameplay)
Since the question is coming up though, I think that I should write about this in the Character building section.
2nd Edit: Done. It's written into the section.
3rd Edit: I want to ask something about Youmu regarding the subclasses, since I am currently editing the wiki to give some recommendations on what subclasses would be best for her. I am currently considering the following...
Recommended Build: Tank
Primary Stat focus: HP, DEF, Elemental affinities.
Guardian: Stat boosts and damage reduction, and Efficient Concentration and Shield Defense to synergize with Meikyo Shisui somewhat(provided that Youmu has built up enough of a SPD buff beforehand to be able to cancel out the SPD debuff, and then focus to regain Meikyo Shisui).
Monk: Body Revitalization has synergy with both her Regeneration and Meikyo Shisui skills and Dexterity Training can reduce the time taken by most of her actions(attack command can be used to quickly gain another turn without using MP).
Healer: Heals the entire frontline passively, reduces her FIR weakness to almost neutral, and the healing spell is useful for when her regen isn't enough(The buffs from Meikyo Shisui will strengthen the spell a good bit).
Strategist: Reduces the decay of the frontline's buffs(including Meikyo Shisui), applies other effects, including a damage reduction effect, to the front line without burning any MP.
Transcendant: Boosts her stats(all boosts other than MAG are useful here) and reduces damage taken via Enhanced Combat.
What do you guys think about it?
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I kind of doubt that Youmu is a good tank once you recruit a decent amount of the cast, to be honest. Meikyo Shisui and Regeneration are her good traits for tanking, but there's better regen tanks (Mokou, Komachi) and Meikyo Shisui doesn't work if you start using skills, which... you probably want to be doing. Plus her MND is so low she'd generally need an HP build, rendering Meikyo Shisui less important and Mokou/Komachi further outclassing her. Her stats are nothing special and she doesn't innately have any skills relevant for a tank.
She's a good tank early in the game, especially against Komachi, and might -work- long-term, but... definitely pales in comparison to the other options. Maybe if you were fighting a Ghost boss. There's apparently a lot of those postgame.
Her main strengths are as an attacker that can save up strong moves by combining Swordmaster's Spirit and Boost to nuke in decisive moments (all the bosses with desperation phases) and the high potential of her post-awakening skills.
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Does Mokou make a worthwhile bulky attacker going into lategame or should I not bother building her too hard only to drop her later? I don't think I really need any more tanks right now, already building Momiji (who I may end up turning into a bulky attacker later knowing she doesn't get any better than earlygame but doesn't get particularly worse), Komachi, Wriggle, Rinno and Keine for general tanks.
This game feels weird in that it doesn't feel like there's anywhere near as many dedicated attackers nor strong attackers as there was last game. Idk this build flexibility is both very nice and very overwhelming.
Also I picked up Kasen and I'm really not sure which direction to go with her but I know I do want her on my team right now since her stats are OP. Suggestions appreciated since I don't want to end up with an unspecialised build and have her go meh as a result.
I dumped rinno temporarily while exploring floors and subbed in some damage dealers and trash clearers instead. Removed the stone from Komachi (thanks for the tip!!). Stuck the stone on Keine and turned her into an Enhancer for boss battles (can't wait for more ATK/MAG buffers).
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As a bulky attacker Mokou's main weakness is her lack of a decent single target nuke (Flying Phoenix's only remarkable trait is that it is cheap, Tsuki no Iwasaka's Curse is as average as a spell gets and Fujiyama Volcano is very "Meh" for it's cost and delay), she can use the Warrior's Explosive Flame Sword since she has Blazing but EFS has pretty bad accuracy so it's a bit unreliable unlesss you give her ACC boosting equipment or boosts; she also doesn't have a lot of elements to choose from. Her strengths are obviously her Resurrection, Fighting Spirit and Regeneration skills which make her very durable and safe when coupled with her high HP, her average defenses can also be fixed thanks to With Keine; she also has high natural MP regen.
Mokou becomes a much better attacker after awakening, where she gets Imperishable Shooting to boost her ATK significantly as she resurrects, Desperation boosts all of her stats and is great on someone like Mokou because you don't have to worry about her getting killed while she's low, Continued Spirit helps her keep the Fighting Spirit stacks easier and Sheer Force helps against resistant enemies.
TL;DR: During the main game she's great at the bulky part but only so-so at the attacker part, she gets better once she awakens in postgame.
Kasen is usually built as a bulky attacker, she's both durable and can also deal great damage with Higekiri's Cursed Arm, can buff herself, has some pretty useful skills and also has several elements to choose from which also inflict a variety of status effects and debuffs; her only weakness is that her somewhat high MP consumption coupled with a pretty average MP regen means that she runs out of MP rather fast, particularly if you spam her buff.
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3rd Edit: I want to ask something about Youmu regarding the subclasses, since I am currently editing the wiki to give some recommendations on what subclasses would be best for her. I am currently considering the following...
Recommended Build: Tank
Primary Stat focus: HP, DEF, Elemental affinities.
Guardian: Stat boosts and damage reduction, and Efficient Concentration and Shield Defense to synergize with Meikyo Shisui somewhat(provided that Youmu has built up enough of a SPD buff beforehand to be able to cancel out the SPD debuff, and then focus to regain Meikyo Shisui).
Monk: Body Revitalization has synergy with both her Regeneration and Meikyo Shisui skills and Dexterity Training can reduce the time taken by most of her actions(attack command can be used to quickly gain another turn without using MP).
Healer: Heals the entire frontline passively, reduces her FIR weakness to almost neutral, and the healing spell is useful for when her regen isn't enough(The buffs from Meikyo Shisui will strengthen the spell a good bit).
Strategist: Reduces the decay of the frontline's buffs(including Meikyo Shisui), applies other effects, including a damage reduction effect, to the front line without burning any MP.
Transcendant: Boosts her stats(all boosts other than MAG are useful here) and reduces damage taken via Enhanced Combat.
What do you guys think about it?
Think I might have a good enough grasp on how the game works to be able to give input on this kind of thing (though I haven't personally used Youmu so I might be really off the mark, just speaking generally here). More or less, for a tank, the most useful things they can be doing (besides not dying) is switching and supporting, since they need to invest most/all of their stats in HP, DEF, and/or MND so that they can reduce damage as much as possible. With that in mind, I feel that Herbalist and Strategist would be the best subclasses for Youmu (at least in the main game, can't speak for plus disc yet), Strategist moreso since Herbalist requires Youmu to spend MP, which means losing out on Meikyo Shisui. The 10% damage bonus/reduction to the whole party is one of the strongest subclass effects in the game and gives an effective reason for using Youmu as a dedicated tank/switcher. Guardian and Transcendant are actually fairly redundant, as tanks generally have good enough defensive stats to be able to withstand attacks to a reasonable extent (~20-30% from the strongest attacks I'd estimate? might be overestimating), so it's usually better to go for something else unless you really do need the extra DEF/MND to survive. Similarly, the Monk subclass does not really help outside the small 4% HP regen/stat bonus per turn, since tank Youmu would ideally just switch characters (and Dexterity Training generally saves 1-2 ticks on anything that isn't too big a delay to not switch out), and the buff is outweighed by the complete lack of stat bonuses toward HP/DEF/MND. And Healer's healing would be much better done by a party-wide Enhancer or a character that has heavy/max investment in ATK or MAG. The extra resistances certainly are helpful, but equipment generally does that better.
So basically, that leaves just Herbalist and Strategist as having strong reasons and relatively lacking in flaws to pick them for Youmu. Well, mostly Strategist. The basic idea I've found for Strategist selection is to figure out which character is accomplishing the least at any given moment in the frontline, which is normally the tank. Youmu particularly benefits as a tank from being a Strategist compared to other characters because Meikyo Shisui encourages her not to expend any MP. A Strategist is just fine being a dedicated switcher. Though, I'm also working with the assumption of an Instant Attack character being present in the party (and honestly, after playing with one, I just can't imagine not having an Instant Attack character, it's an insanely good skill for decreasing the party's downtime), which greatly increases the value of having a character ready to switch frequently. Youmu seems like a fairly self-sufficient defensive character, with Desperation, Regeneration, and Meikyo Shisui being the key skills (isn't Desperation actually a great skill? seems to go under the radar a bit), plus Those who Live in the Underworld giving an incentive to specifically use her as the tank against Ghost bosses over other characters. Dunno about her MND though...since the characters I've been using as tanks (mainly Tenshi, Iku w/ Hisouten Guard, and Momiji to a lesser extent) have well balanced (and high) defense stats, I don't know how bad it being so low is for her. I could just manually calculate it (I do this for every boss for important/common attacks), but gotta check in-game and stuff for that.
I think Meikyo Shisui shows its value most effectively with Strategist Youmu, since it's the only job that can be done without expending any MP at all. Meikyo Shisui effectively becomes an extra strong Majesty in that context, and being able to buff her DEF/MND and her SPD helps in the switching role. Regeneration and Desperation probably provide enough of a buffer that Youmu can invest in SPD instead of defenses to some extent, depending on how much of an impact Desperation's buff has for reducing damage (useless for defense ignoring attacks, for example), so she can aim to more reliably switch characters after they attack. Meikyo Shisui itself accumulates quite quickly, netting a 45% buff after 5 turns and 66% after 10 turns (assuming Strategist), so it's pretty significant.
But I'm just basing off experience using other characters. Using Tenshi, I just have her use Enduring Celestial + Keystone Formation and never need to buff her defenses in order for her to tank as a Strategist (I've yet to find a practical use for State of Enlightenment tbh). Youmu has less DEF and a lot less MND, but she has Regeneration, Desperation, and a higher buff baseline, so I'm thinking the same principle should apply for her (at least for DEF).
EDIT: Ah yeah, by the way, I don't think it's a good idea to try to mention a bunch of different subclasses. Usually 1-3 are just plain better than anything else you could want, and in this particular context, I'm struggling to see a good reason to use anything other than Strategist if you want to have Youmu be a tank. Like, yeah, you could do something else if you wanted to, but if it's a question of effectiveness, comparatively speaking, I don't think you're really going to do better than Strategist in any context that exists in the game. This is just my opinion, but I think things like guides and recommendations should be narrowed and focused on what works best.
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Huh, don't know if anyone's actually noticed this (It's quite expensive after all) but Library Levels for Affinity cap at 100.
I just found this out on my recent second run through Plus Disk.
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That's news to me. Guess that means that you can't compensate via the Library past a certain point.
Still, since HP for the library doesn't have a cap and can be leveled up like crazy if need be, it's not as big a deal as one would think. In fact, I would think that such a cap would be necessary for game balance, as in the first game, affinities were the most important stat past a certain point, so the dev doesn't want a repeat of that here.
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Additionally, it seems leveling up Affinities to 100 close to doubles the character's base affinity, at least in the case of a 50 Affinity (Kogasa's Spirit and Ran's Cold) and a 132 Affinity (Patchy's FIR/CLD/NTR/WND), where they both end up as 100/264.
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Which means that a few characters won't be able to overcome their weakness even with a Affinity Tome(Cirno and Flandre are notable examples). Interesting.
I honestly would like to test if the cap is something that has always been there, or if it's a recent addition...
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It looks like leveling up a character's affinity increases it by 1% of its base. Did a quick check with Iku's FIR resistance (75), she maxes out at 150, and for every 4 levels, she gets 3 levels of +1 and 1 level of 0 (0.75, 1.5, 2.25, 3 = +0, +1, +1, +1, repeat). Similar story with her 125 CLD resistance, which caps at 250 and increases at a consistent +1, +1, +1, +2 rate. Probably safe to assume that it's a 1% increase for all characters.
Seems kinda weird to cap it though, as there's already a cap of 500 affinity (in terms of effect). With a cap like this in play, you have no choice but to devote a character's equipment slots to affinity-boosting gear even at end-game, if they're too weak to element(s) the boss uses. It does add relevance to the original affinity of the character, like the level up MP cap, but it feels somewhat limiting in comparison...
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The problem is that in late plus disk situations, powerleveling your affinities in LoT1 had a grossly huge effect. By the time you're fighting the final boss, even characters with rock bottom mind didn't have to worry about magic anymore; Yuugi could be a first slot tank in a full ATK build because suddenly she just laughed magic away despite her MND growth being "3", which is lower than Chen's was, for perspective.
In LoT2, there is no longer non-elemental attacks (apart from the rare void element) so it could be potentially even LARGER of an issue- you'd reduce magical AND physical damage to pathetic amounts. However, powerleveling affinities was heavily nerfed via %age increases (a character's strengths and weaknesses remain present, instead of quickly evening out and disappearing), and again by the hard cap, so this problem has been circumvented.
If it wasn't hard capped, then everyone would be stupidly resistant to all non-void attacks they weren't innately weak to by the time you finished the infinite corridor content. He could balance by just pumping enemy atk/mag higher and higher, but that just sounds annoying to have to account for, doesn't it?
Also, does affinity actually cap at 500? I mean, my Nitori has 524 wind affinity just by chance due to maintennance. Does it just secretly stop working after 500 or are you only talking about diminishing returns?
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It secretly stops increasing damage reduction past 500, which is an 80% decrease in damage. I just kinda figured that enemy stats were already properly scaled with how affinity works, unlike the 1st game.
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I have a small question since I might do a run with the character sometime, but does Character 7 of Plus Disk (I have no idea how to do spoiler tags) not have Proof of Kinship? From what I've seen they don't, but I just want to be sure.
My closest save to an Awakening is at 51F of Corridor and I'd rather not slog through 20 floors to see myself unless I have to.
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Yeah, Koishi doesn't get Proof of Kinship.
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So I just noticed a very strange discrepancy with Sanae's Yasaka's Divine Wind, in that it was healing considerably less HP than it should have. With 14441 MAG and level 5 (1.2x multiplier), she should be healing an average of 22181 HP with no MAG buffs, but instead, she was healing in the 14-15K range. Looking at how healing was calculated, I realized that Yasaka's Divine Wind is a WND element spell card, and I had Aya in the frontline with her Ability to Manipulate Wind skill maxed out for -30% WND damage. I switched Aya out and started getting 22K heals. 22181 * 0.7 = 15526.
Elemental damage reducing skills reduce the healing from those same elements, geez. I guess that's something to report as a bug then?
...er, where do I report bugs?
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Yeowch, that does sound like a bug. Although, does that also mean that elemental damage boosting effects increase the effects of healing spells?
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from what i am understanding he means that it reduces beneficial effects on your party. the enemy is not affected by it. however i wonder since from what i remember the regen from some bosses is counted as fire, if you increase how much you do with fire damage does the healing increases too?
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Yeowch, that does sound like a bug. Although, does that also mean that elemental damage boosting effects increase the effects of healing spells?
Doesn't look like it. Was getting 22K heals from Healer Eirin's Prayer of Recovery regardless of whether Sanae with Power of the Living God maxed was present or not. Seems the elemental damage reducing skills only check to see if the player's party is being "damaged", and not the source of said damage.
Dunno how the healing reduction escaped playtesting when Reimu (I.E. a member of the starting party) has a SPI healing spell card and a skill that reduces SPI damage (and by extension, healing from SPI spell cards). Rumia has the same problem too. I mean, it's not really the kind of thing you look for unless you know it exists, but the probability of accidentally finding it seems high?
however i wonder since from what i remember the regen from some bosses is counted as fire, if you increase how much you do with fire damage does the healing increases too?
Tested with Suwako's Froggy Power! and the 7f Daphnids that use Slack Off. Without Suwako, Slack Off healed 731. With Suwako, Slack Off healed 1K. It seems that this is exactly the case.
So not only does your healing get nerfed by the elemental damage reducing skills, you buff your enemy heals with the elemental damage increasing skills. Geez!
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Tested with Suwako's Froggy Power! and the 7f Daphnids that use Slack Off. Without Suwako, Slack Off healed 731. With Suwako, Slack Off healed 1K. It seems that this is exactly the case.
So not only does your healing get nerfed by the elemental damage reducing skills, you buff your enemy heals with the elemental damage increasing skills. Geez!
If things are acting in that way, maybe the elemental damage boosting spells work by increasing the "damage" that enemies take, regardless of whether it's a heal or a damaging blow? Part of me thinks that the dev could fix that by having it check if the damage is positive or negative, so that it only applies if it's not a healing spell. That way, it won't mess with those formulas.
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Yeah, that's what it looks like from a programming standpoint. The bugfix looks like an easy solution too, so it won't necessarily be a problem that will be stuck in the game after being pointed out. I'd like to submit a bug report but I didn't find a section on the game's page or the JP wiki for where bug reports should be filed. Writing it out wouldn't be a problem for me (well, not as much as someone who doesn't know a lick of Japanese), I just don't know where to submit it.
The JP wiki doesn't seem to list this bug either, unless it's been reported in the comments. The comments are too difficult for me to read thoroughly.
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It actually also works with gatekeeper's nap (Meiling), fighting spirit (multiple people) and Mononobe's plates. Mononobe also has a harder time as it also removes one of her plates, which was the only reason why I think she was so hard to actually fit her into the team I was using. Meiling's increased healing at least makes the problem go away for her (brings it up to about 110% instead of 68%).
The problem is surprisingly prevalent in a lot of characters as any damage reducing passive is also a healing reducing passive. Transcendent and strategist sub-classes should also be reducing healing as well.
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Oh wow, you're right. With a Strategist, Aya, and Transcendent target, Yasaka's Divine Wind was healing half as much as it should have (cumulative total is either 50% or 56%, depending on if % damage reduction is additive or multiplicative), from 24K to 12K. That's just...what. So any kind of % damage reduction impacts healing as well. Man, if I had Eiki active as well (or Awakened) it'd be down to 40%-51%. It seems like such a basic thing to get right, too.
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On a totally different subject, I finished the main disc with the Hisouten duo oriented party and recorded all of the major post-game bosses (except Aria-Singing Toruasutory, I messed up recording that). Run was done at brave level using Iku as the average and library levels at 1.2x the level of the lowest leveled character (Tenshi for now, Miko when I get her). Instead of posting about the run regularly, I thought it'd be better to finish everything and post about it once. Playlist link is https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbKPr8l6tlmCV1p0_paXnxPWDa0wzrJ9t. Currently working on Plus Disk content now.
Tenshi turned out to be a much stronger character than I expected in terms of offensive strength. Girl of Bhava-agra and Attack Boost puts her ATK stat as one of the best in the game (with 187 library level, 10 ATK Orbs, Attack Boost, Transcendent + Body Reinforcement, and Genji Gloves/Nodachi "Kotetsu"/Quartz Charm, level 156 Tenshi has 30371 * 1.4 = 42519 ATK, level 150 Flandre without SDM Residents has 46338, 9% more ATK), which works great with her excellent spell card formulas. There were circumstances, like with Aria-Singing Toruasutory, where Tenshi could out-damage Eiki (barely) with their SPI attacks (but that requires abnormally low DEF). As a tank, she had enough defensive prowess with Enduring Celestial and Keystone Formation that I never really found it useful to use State of Enlightenment (the EN wiki says that State of Enlightenment being a typical 1st turn action makes the use of Enduring Celestial questionable, but the other way around is true too). Since Tenshi's role as a tank is to switch, State of Enlightenment's delay is a bit counterproductive. Furthermore, buffing DEF/MND doesn't really help too much against some of the more powerful bosses like Avatar - Ama no Murakumo. For example, Ama no Murakumo's Wild Dance does 13K on average with no DEF buff for the setup I had Tenshi with (which I calculated to be the best possible setup that's also immune to all status), and 11K on average with 100% DEF. With 40K HP (before Scythe of Calamity), that's not even a 10% reduction. In general, the best way to reduce damage seems to be to stack HP and affinity, even with Tenshi's level of defenses.
Iku was a little difficult to use offensively because she needed MND debuffs to deal good damage with her spell cards, but she dealt excellent amounts of damage in those circumstances, as expected. In particular, pairing her with Reisen has led to a pretty reliable random encounter setup with Aya that goes Lunatic Red Eyes > Divine Grandson's Advent > Lunatic Red Eyes > Light Dragon's Sigh, which usually wipes out enemies regardless of their MND stat, unless they're of the high HP, low DEF/MND type (which Tenshi eliminates easily) or resist one/both elements. Her normal attack is also great for taking a boss down steadily (it's only about 10% weaker than Aspiration Surge on a -50% MND target, but better delay, lower cost, and calculates damage using 10% of the target's MND by default), but almost all of the post-game bosses were resistant to MYS. But as a tank/support character, Iku felt even more useful. Hisouten Guard bolsters her defensive stats high enough that, aside from her more lopsided affinities, she was able to endure all types of attacks better than Tenshi, while also having a more productive role as a tank. I ended up frequently using her as an Herbalist, as she had enough SPD (especially with Lightning Fish maxed out) to regularly buff characters and use Herb of Awakening. Since a lot of bosses apply annoying status effects like DTH and debuffs, and most equipment that boosts status resistances boosts all of them, the characters that would get buffed by Iku were already going to be immune to PAR and debuffs in the first place, so the negative effects don't matter too much. Iku could also apply PAR and DEF debuffs, so she could lock down PAR weak opponents and debuff enemies for Tenshi. Overall, I think Iku is the best character in the party composition, capable of excelling at every aspect of gameplay.
The rest of the characters generally acted as support or alternative attackers as necessary. Can't really say I have any complaints about them, the more I play with the party composition, the more strategies I find and the more complete it feels. The only thing that I've found disappointing thus far is overestimating how much Maribel can heal, as even with max MAG, Enhancer Keine usually heals more (and buffs too) with a lower delay. Luckily, that, along with Sanae and Healer Momiji, have thus far been enough to handle healing, so Maribel doesn't need to be good at healing.
That stuff aside, with every (important) boss I've been running calculations based on their stats and AI to figure out the most effective methods of attacking and setups for defending, but without any of Plus Disk's content datamined, that simply isn't an option. I could figure this stuff out through a more rough method of in-game testing, but that's more time consuming. So I was wondering, how does extracting stats and AI scripts go? If it's simply a matter of nobody wanting to do it, I'd happily do it. It'd be easier and more accurate than in-game testing this stuff (not to mention more interesting). It'd be nice to contribute that kind of information anyway.
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It actually also works with gatekeeper's nap (Meiling), fighting spirit (multiple people) and Mononobe's plates. Mononobe also has a harder time as it also removes one of her plates, which was the only reason why I think she was so hard to actually fit her into the team I was using. Meiling's increased healing at least makes the problem go away for her (brings it up to about 110% instead of 68%).
The problem is surprisingly prevalent in a lot of characters as any damage reducing passive is also a healing reducing passive. Transcendent and strategist sub-classes should also be reducing healing as well.
Oh wow, you're right. With a Strategist, Aya, and Transcendent target, Yasaka's Divine Wind was healing half as much as it should have (cumulative total is either 50% or 56%, depending on if % damage reduction is additive or multiplicative), from 24K to 12K. That's just...what. So any kind of % damage reduction impacts healing as well. Man, if I had Eiki active as well (or Awakened) it'd be down to 40%-51%. It seems like such a basic thing to get right, too.
That would mean that the same kind of programming is used for all of these damage reducing effects. I don't know whether they're using the same subroutine, or if each of these is separate, and I'm kind of hoping that it's the former.
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I finally made something (kind of) cool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2jYp2pDGE
Ignore the game over at the start, video editing with Twitch is kind of bad.
Showing off how strong Sword of Hisou can be.
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I finally made something (kind of) cool
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2jYp2pDGE
Ignore the game over at the start, video editing with Twitch is kind of bad.
Showing off how strong Sword of Hisou can be.
That's fairly impressive! My worry is, though...
Just how powerful is Tenshi at clearing randoms? Like, I would not have cared if this were like TH1, where the endgame is all about single-enemy encounters (V.3 bosses, Serpent of Chaos, WINNER...), but it seems that TH2 PD's endgame will be all about the Endless Corridor, which likely puts a higher emphasis than TH1 on characters which can wipe multiple enemies at once, and with good speed (and TPs). This is why I'm wary about using Tenshi over somebody who can more easily kill many enemies at once (like Maribel, Yuyuko, or Yuuka)
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Violent Motherland is perfectly fine at that; it's formula is average for all-targets but it'll still be backed by high ATK. If anything, it's probably easier to have Iku out with Tenshi all the time in randoms compared to boss fights. On the flip side, she's gonna be really slow to get her first turn in, and there's not a whole lot you can do about that. (The aforementioned Yuyuko and Yuuka are possibly even slower than Tenshi though anyway, after their expensive library costs)
And Iku isn't a waste of a slot at all in randoms, since she can either heavily buff the best person's attack up (as her speed is far higher in Plus than in base game, you can totally set up to outspeed most characters) or she can shred stuff with her zippy defense-ignoring attacks (with wnd spells as backup).
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Iku can also use Light Dragon's Sigh to debuff the enemies DEF for Tenshi to mow them down, if you have Aya you could also have Iku act twice in a row to both buff Tenshi and then debuff the enemies , this probably kills anything that isn't extremely resistant to NTR/WND or has ridiculous defenses/HP. Tenshi also gets Always Rising after Falling so she can afford to receive some damage in randoms.
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Violent Motherland is perfectly fine at that; it's formula is average for all-targets but it'll still be backed by high ATK. If anything, it's probably easier to have Iku out with Tenshi all the time in randoms compared to boss fights.
Ah, Iku is easy to keep out during boss fights because Hisouten Guard makes her more durable than Tenshi, except for SPI attacks (Tenshi has 60 more base SPI affinity than Iku). That plus her better HP. She could (as long as damage variance was not unkind) withstand Knockout in Three Steps from Shadow Yuugi with a 0% DEF buff, for example (thanks to Tenshi's Freedom from Worldly Thoughts for -30% PHY damage). Tenshi can do that too with a 100% buff, but she still has damage variance issues. Komachi is probably (I'm assuming) the only character more durable than Iku if you ignore the other synergy skills, although post-Awakening Tenshi would easily surpass Iku's durability.
But yeah, when I first got Tenshi she was wiping out everything with Violent Motherland (especially after Light Dragon's Sigh from Iku) aside from extremely high DEF enemies and/or ones with high NTR resistance. I didn't think to optimize her ATK via equipment at that time though, she might've been able to accomplish that if I had thought to do so. Violent Motherland also benefits from having one of the best animations in the game, so it's doubly awesome. Presently, with the B1-2f enemies all being weak (or neutral at worst) to SPI, I've been going max SPD Strategist Iku with Sanae as the attacker. After being buffed with Thundercloud Stickleback, Sanae has enough MAG that she can two-shot everything on those floors with Night of Bright Guest Stars (even the high MND enemies), although usually the sequence goes in a way that Sanae attacks once before being buffed (if Iku gets Raid Maneuver then Sanae gets buffed before attacking). Aya gives enough speed between switching and Divine Grandson's Advent that everything gets done before any enemy actions, except for the Skull Eaters (who usually miss with their attacks).
Speaking of Aya, she lets Tenshi (and other slow characters, or just characters in general) get quick turns with switching in an Instant Attack character and switching back. That's usually enough to be able to wipe the enemy party before one can act, unless an enemy has extremely high speed.
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That is good to know - well, at least Tomes of Reincarnation are a thing, so I can freely test stuff once I reach the corridor, thus putting less stress on me getting the squad right the first time (whereas in TH1 I have to restart everytime I realize my squad is suboptimal <.<)
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Hey, Serela. Where was it that we could send a message about bugs again? Because apparently, it was discovered that damage reducing passives also reduced the amount of healing that would be received while the damage boosting skills also boosted the enemies ability to heal(easiest to test via the elemental damage reduce/damage boost skills and healing spells that has the matching element to said skills), and we kind of wanted to know how to submit a bug report to let the dev know about this, as it's a fairly big bug at that...
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I dunno. Find someone to translate it to japanese and tweet it at him?
If you wanted to submit it to the jp wiki you'd have to ask someone who's -physically in japan- apparently, and I don't know if that'd even work. Last time this came up (unreported bugs like Sealing Club not working; fixed now iirc) I don't think any conventional bug report method was found.
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I had taken a huge break from the Kraken shadows bullcrap, and I come back to a horrendous bug being discovered. I never would've noticed that on my own, so that pretty cool that you guys did. Any tips on how to beat the Kraken now that diva Aya has been nerfed?
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I used PAR spam from Iku and Momiji's Rabies Bite for damage, thought it was kinda easy tbh (although it took a while). Kraken's Shadow has a PAR resistance of 20 so it's pretty weak to it. You won't be able to lock it down (I think), but you can slow it down a lot doing that. Debuffing its SPD helps to slow it down even further. If you're having trouble surviving its attacks, try stacking a ton of DEF or something. If you can get 21K+ DEF after buffs, you can completely negate Octangle Attack's damage. Coming close to that value is good enough to survive it easily anyway.
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SHK resistance also helps since it sometimes likes to spam moves that inflict it, which can slow your frontline down considerably if you get unlucky. The Kraken's strength is its high SPD but its attacks usually don't hurt too bad, Octangle Attack also wastes its turns since it's actually really easy to survive with either good DEF or high CLD resistance.
Even then, in the grand scheme of **** that are the shadow bosses, the Kraken is pretty mild; the wasps, squirrel, Memorized Knowledge and Azure Giant are much worse (though you can cheese some of them with DTH), and then there's the Mirror...
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I managed to beat them through a little training on 20F, but I wonder if the level I am now (around 250 average) is too much for plus disk... I mean, it seems adequate for random encounters in the original postgame, but maybe the plus disk starting floors were easier?
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250? Jesus christ, that's at -least- 50 levels of sheer overkill :V Yeah, you're gonna stomp postgame into the ground for awhile.
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250? Jesus christ, that's at -least- 50 levels of sheer overkill :V Yeah, you're gonna stomp postgame into the ground for awhile.
Hey it's not my fault I couldn't outspeed and kill randoms under that level lol - anyway now I have all my chars at around that level with 3X Grand Master Breaking Title for each (mostly), so I'm ready for whenever the translation comes out :-)
Meanwhile I restarted my TH1 save to make the following changes to my squad:
Suwako -> Mystia (Suwako is too frail, and Mystia's much stronger than I thought - plus the PAR chance on Midnight Chorus Master is extremely useful vs WINNER)
Flandre -> Yuuka (Yuuka's Master Spark hits roughly as hard as Flandre Lavatein, so she's equally good for farming Serpent of Chaos. And unlike Flandre she doesn't need constant healing while fighting WINNER, though she does noticeably less dmg)
Rumia -> Ran (I don't rly need a 3rd healer, and none of Rumia, Sanae or Eirin are suitable for fighting WINNER. Ran, on the other hand, provides excellent support with her buffs as well as a backup tank in case Keine bites the dust)
Yuugi -> Maribel (Yuugi hits hard but is way too slow. Maribel on the other hand is incredibly fast and hits decently hard thanks to Overflowing Unnatural Power. I still gotta test the efficacy of her stat debuffs on WINNER)
It'll take a few weeks but I should be able to get back to where I was with my previous save soon, given that I ported skill points and all^^
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with 3X Grand Master Breaking Title for each (mostly), so I'm ready for whenever the translation comes out
how
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how
They drop from that squirrel on 16F in the postgame - the odds are apparently pretty low (0.4%), but if you use Nazrin with Rinnosuke it doesn't take longer than 20-30 hours of play I reckon. Plus I didn't equip all 12 with 3X Medals. For example, Renko has items to enhance her HP and her evasion (which, at around 150 or so EVA, makes her nearly invincible). In total I think I have around 20X Medals across the whole team.
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Well, when it's something as valuable as that, grinding for it doesn't sound like a bad idea. I presume that you're using the move that increases the chances of getting an item drop on a kill?
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Well, when it's something as valuable as that, grinding for it doesn't sound like a bad idea. I presume that you're using the move that increases the chances of getting an item drop on a kill?
Yes I was - I was also running away from any encounter not featuring those squirrels (even larvaes because those Genji Gloves and Zeus Armor are not as good as they look - slapping a Glove on your physical sweeper or an Armor on your tank is fine, but the fact that, unlike Medal, they don't give ailment or affinity bonuses is a huge problem)
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I managed to beat them through a little training on 20F, but I wonder if the level I am now (around 250 average) is too much for plus disk... I mean, it seems adequate for random encounters in the original postgame, but maybe the plus disk starting floors were easier?
Yeah, B1f is at about the right level to challenge immediately after defeating Avatar - Ama no Murakumo. Besides the Shadow Kasen fight (Brave 140), the first boss fight (Shadow Onis) is at Brave Level 160. The random encounters vary wildly though, from post-game 16f encounters like Poisonous Sea Slug and Skull Eater (148-149), new ordinary random encounters like Hell Kedama and Creeping Grudge (162-168), and ridiculously high level enemies like Aggregated Grudge and Void of Pandemonium (206-218). You can still take the last group of enemies out with some effort at level 160 though, and they drop amazing equipment for how early they are (Aggregated Grudge gives a +320% SPD equipment, Void of Pandemonium gives one with +256% ATK plus some other bonuses). Their rates are pretty nice too, 2-3%.
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who farmed Grand Master Breaker Titles on 16f too. I only grabbed 9 in addition to the freebies from treasure/achievements, for a total of 12 (haven't needed more than that), took several hours (I wasn't using any drop boosting skills though) but GMB Title is still the best defensive equipment all the way through B4f (furthest I've gotten so far). The drop rate's 0.9% too, so it's a lot easier to get than it seems. I wasn't running away from non-squirrel encounters though, dunno if it'd have been faster to do so or not (accounting for boosted drop rates from consecutive victories and TP issues). I have started doing that for Plus Disk encounters, but mainly because the battles are a lot harder, and wasting MP is not helpful.
It's just as well that you didn't farm Genji Gloves/Zeus' Armor, as those things get outdated as soon as you step into Plus Disk anyway. Between the aforementioned +256% ATK equip and +240% MAG equips that can be obtained from a B2f encounter (it's necessary to visit B2f before reaching the Shadow Onis), as far as offensive bonuses go, those things quickly fall behind. GMB Title gives you the most benefit for the effort put into acquiring it.
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Good to know that it wasn't a wasted effort :-) Anyway, I'm considering leveldropping to face bosses just in case they're too easy, we'll see^^ (after all, I can always avoid the pain of levelling back up by resetting and trouncing them again at max level :-P )
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They probably will be too easy, Plus Disk bosses generally have much lower defenses compared to the main game's bosses, in exchange for high offensive presence, making for fast paced fights. Since you're so overleveled, it's likely you'll wipe them out before they can properly get started. I did some tests for the earlier ones, my estimates on offensive/defensive stats so far are
Shadow Kasen: 30K ATK, 60K DEF, 55K MND
Shadow Yuugi: 57K ATK, 90K DEF, 10K MND
Shadow Suika: 30K ATK, 15K DEF, 52.5K MND
Shadow Kogasa: 45K ATK, 60K DEF, 30K MND
Shadow Hina: 35K DEF, 70K MND (didn't check Hina's MAG or Parsee's ATK)
Shadow Parsee: 32.5K DEF, 250K+ MND (couldn't deal magic damage to her even with Iku's normal attacks, she has at least 250K, maybe 300-325K MND)
Avatar - Ama no Murakumo had 36.6K ATK and 150K DEF/MND for comparison. Since the defenses on Plus Disk bosses are so low (for the most part), defense ignoring attacks tend to fall behind attacks with higher multipliers. For example, Eiki's Last Judgement does about 25% less damage to Hina and Parsee compared to Tenshi's Sword of Hisou. Debuffing enemy defenses also tends to not be very important for the same reason, very little damage is gained from doing so. For example, using Shadow Hina and Sword of Hisou again, using the setup that I had, Tenshi can do 156K damage on average to her. With a -50% DEF debuff, that 156K becomes 165K, which is a mere 5.7% damage increase.
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That is good news tbh - I mean, I understand that piercing attacks need to have an advantage sometimes, but TH2 REALLY overdid it with defenses. I can't count the number of bosses against which most of my team mates did 0 damage bar extreme nukes (like Parsee) and damage-ignoring attackers (like Eiki). But yeah I'll definitely lower my levels to avoid overnuking prolly (though this means I get to keep all extra ability points, but at least I can reset stat bonuses)
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Plus Disk does have its share of high defense bosses like Grandgon, but for the most part yeah you don't need to include a few characters just to be able to do damage to most bosses any more.
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Good to hear, the high defense bosses in 2 was one of the biggest gripes i had about it since I'm a weirdo and like making defense-oriented parties over offensive ones. In my first playthru, the only people who could do not 0 to the final boss was Nitori (cuz duh), and KOGASA of all people, who I did NOT think was going to be a 'power nuke' in my playthru (she's not but when she can damage enemies while youmu did 0 with slash of eternity and patchy did 0 with silent selene and marisa did 0 with master spark.... yeah). Bonus points for being the only character who could ever debuff the defenses on said bosses too (since many seemed to resist debuffs from other characters too, yarg!)
Honestly, it kinda convinced me that kogasa is an amazing character in game in general, but I never hear anyone mention her. She has a reliable nuke with dark element (which IIRC people said was a 'good' element) that all but guaranteeds a much-needed mnd debuff whom nobody else can deliver as far as I can tell (in my 2nd playthru, not even hina can debuff as reliably.. yes she can debuff more faster, but she can't pin-point debuff a PARTICULAR stat with more reliability in my experience). That and her defenses aren't bad, in fact IIRC they're actually pretty good. I mean her defense is good, her hp and mnd wasn't good but they were pretty average overall IIRC, and her leveling was crazy fast. I'm not saying she's op or anything, just that... I think she kinda can do something useful to pretty much any party. Just don't focus on terror with her.
I'm probably the noobest lot2 fan at this point though since I didn't even finish post game content. By the time I got to that point + disc was coming out, so I decided to wait.. and wait and wait and.. well yeah I'm just stubborn.
I realize leveling fast only provides so much benefit since everyone 'caps' at each boss anyway, but does + disc or infinite dungeon change this? I mean are bosses in the inifinite dungeon 'level capped' as well? Because leveling fast will become an important 'stat' again if not.
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Yeah, Kogasa is pretty cool. With her leveling rate, her ATK is almost on par with Momiji's, but A Rainy Night's Ghost Story has a tremendous damage modifier (almost as high as Tenshi's World Creation Press), dealing about as much damage as Eirin's Astronomical Entombing (with People of the Moon). With Plus Disk's Ultra Water-Repellent Ghost Umbrella, when attacking a TRR afflicted enemy, her ATK stat is increased by 33% (as opposed to increasing the end result by 33% like most other damage boosting skills), so she can overwhelm enemy DEF through sheer ATK, getting damage done even when she would normally do 0. It's a bit more potent than a 33% damage boost because of this, A Rainy Night's Ghost Story gets closer to 40% more damage on average for example. Combined with Sheer Force, it is also the most reliable MND debuffing attack (Reisen's Lunatic Red Eyes + Intense Vertigo and Hina's Misfortune God's Biorhythm come really close though).
Kogasa's DEF is also really good, with her leveling rate, it's almost as high as Tenshi's, but with about 20% more HP. Momiji still has a bit higher DEF (what with having the best DEF in the game and all), but Kogasa is pretty high up there, although she is held back quite a bit in the MND department (Momiji has about 20% more MND, Tenshi has about 50% more MND), and she takes a lot more SPI damage since her base is 50. But that doesn't change that Kogasa is a lot tankier than her base stats look thanks to having one of the best leveling rates in the game.
For the exact numbers on the defensive stats, with Transcendent + Body Reinforcement and no equipment or level up bonuses invested (bulky attacker setup, so max ATK for levels)
Level 181 Tenshi: 14129 HP, 15133 DEF, 14935 MND
Level 187 Momiji: 19528 HP, 16441 DEF, 12362 MND
Level 195 Kogasa: 17333 HP, 15000 DEF, 10963 MND
Using 186 Iku as the party's average to scale from. I'm not 100% on whether or not the % stuff I've said will remain true 50 or 100 levels from now, but I'll correct myself later if that's not the case. Most enemy attacks use 50% or even 25% of your defensive stats, so the difference in their static values is smaller in practice (half of Tenshi and Kogasa's DEF would be 7566 and 7500, for example).
If the level caps you're talking about are from playing on Hard Mode, I'm pretty sure that's lifted after beating Ama no Murakumo. Don't take my word for when it's lifted though, I didn't play on Hard Mode. Regardless, you still get nice items for doing fights at Brave Level in Plus Disk (a different set of stat boosting items than the ones in the main game), so it's a good idea to aim for that still.
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Ktaken is dead, thanks for the tips! Next I have to beat the plant shadow on floor 7, I'm super behind now. Tho I am average level 148 from instant death grinding on floor 21
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I was looking in the backlogs of this topic and found that I had forgotten to put in an awakening skill that was found for Shou, so it's been updated.
Also, I am now motivated to finally go beat down Ame-no Murakumo, so that I can go grind for those super stat boosting items.
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If it helps with figuring out how much grinding you might expect on Murakumo, I observed over the course of the 450 or so runs I did (to get 10 characters maxed, never mind 12) that the items that are dropped (assuming Brave Level) are always 1 of the 6 "main" stats (HP/ATK/DEF/MAG/MND/SPD) and 1 of MP/TP/SP. They seem to have even distribution otherwise. This appears to be true for all of the main game's bosses. Plus Disk seems to be evenly random about the item distribution, seen two of the same item drop too. Haven't seen a single item for SP drop though, Plus Disk bosses might not drop any.
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Don't know if it's a bug or intentional, but Shou's Rage Counter does get removed by Shredder. I've only had it used on her once (Vs. Futo) but it removed the counter completely.
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Don't know if it's a bug or intentional, but Shou's Rage Counter does get removed by Shredder. I've only had it used on her once (Vs. Futo) but it removed the counter completely.
I don't think that Shou's Rage Counter is immune to that in the first place, as it doesn't say that it is. In fact, I think that the only counter skill that does imply that it's immune to stuff like that is Marisa's Hakkero Charge Mode...
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I forgot who was talking about what party members to build, and I have a GREAT suggestion. Build Hina. She's just crazy vs enemies that are weak to dark, and especially strong against bosses who can have their mind debuffs aka she does great with kogasa. She can actually one hit the final boss in the desert area.
Proof -> https://youtu.be/WtBz-TBAEHY
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Yeah Hina can do lots of damage - but at the same time, there are many other good Dark nukes, such as Parsee. Personally, I prefer to build Hina as a tank, since she has surprisingly good bulk once she's fully buffed and - if you build her defenses - you have less chances of her getting sniped out before she fully debuffed the boss. Also, a tank build makes Hina useful against more than just Dark weak bosses.
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Beat Miko on my playthrough and now I'm a bit stumped what to do next. I'm realizing that my current party has a lot of room for improvement, and most of the recorded bosses could be done better. I don't want to continue knowing that I want to restart, but I don't want to restart and do all that grinding again...I guess I could overlevel for Murakumo, but man, 450+ runs...that was about 30 hours of doing nothing but beating Murakumo. I think I might just wait for the game to be updated or something before doing anything.
Anyway, looking over my current party composition of
Sanae / Eiki / Maribel / Miko
Kogasa / Aya / Eirin / Reisen
Iku / Tenshi / Keine / Momiji
Iku and Tenshi are the core part of the team so they're obviously keepers. They're great characters too, no complaints there. Preferentially, Tenshi is the attacker and Iku is the support, they're well suited for the roles and it fits their characters perfectly too. Tenshi is already an extremely strong attacker with just Girl of Bhava-agra, her Awakening is going to make her ridiculous. Up to 30% more ATK (and all her other stats) from Keystones of Spirit as well as up to 34% (factoring buff decay with Strategist) more ATK from Courageous Sword. Combined with Girl of Bhava-agra, Tenshi is working with a 143% ATK boost before factoring actual ATK buffs. Tenshi should be one of the hardest hitting characters in the game when fully setup. Probably still not Nitori or Flandre level, but still the definitive bulky attacker.
Keine is great. I didn't realize on the first few readings of the skill, but her Organized Formation skill that restores 1 MP to characters that switch and are switched applies to any switch performed when she's on the frontline, not just ones by her (which is how every other switching skill works, only the user's switches count). This is really nice to restore MP to a character by switching with Momiji and Aya. Definitely something I want to try to use more. Besides that, she performs the typical buffing/tanking role just fine, good delays on her spells and pretty much the best MT ATK/MAG buff. Usually, Enhancer MT buffs cover healing well enough that I don't miss having a dedicated healer, which is just as well too, as Maribel took a while for her MAG to be sufficient for MT healing.
Momiji's also better than I initially expected. Instant Attack characters go well with Healer and other support subclasses for quickly doing whatever it is they need to do, so there's never really a situation that they're only useful for switching. Momiji's ability to buff accuracy has also been really handy, as it negates the possibility of a miss against the vast majority of enemies and bosses. I prefer to minimize randomness, so this is a really valuable skill for that purpose. Besides that, Momiji is by far the tankiest character in the party, far surpassing Iku or Tenshi even for MAG based attacks due to her excellent HP count and reasonably balanced affinities. For DEF attacks I don't think a single character is more durable, Momiji doesn't just have the best DEF growth in the game, she has a fairly good leveling curve to accompany it, ending up with about 25% more DEF than Tenshi does. Her ATK, while not as amazing as her DEF, is also extremely good among the cast members, on par with Eiki (after factoring Majesty giving her a higher buff baseline), and she's the only good PHY attacker in the party, though I don't really like using her to attack because that leaves me without an Instant Attacker in the back. Adding a second Instant Attacker is something I've been considering because of that, probably Mystia. Lastly, she has a racial bonus against Flying enemies, but that isn't useful too often. A free 20% damage bonus on every attack is not small though.
Kogasa's a really strong attacker. Factoring her leveling rate, her ATK is exceptional, and A Rainy Night's Ghost Story and Drizzling Large Raindrops (backed by Warrior subclass) are excellent spell cards to take advantage of it, with TRR further boosting her damage output. But that's not why I picked her. I picked her for, among other things, debuffing MND for Iku. This hasn't been very useful because Reisen does that, although a little worse (40% compared to 42%, and Sheer Force reduces resistance by 33% compared to Intense Vertigo's 20%), Reisen does all of these other things that makes her more useful to have than Kogasa. Everything else about her comes from her Awakening, and I don't really see them being that useful, although they're strong effects. Speedy Formation Change is a great skill for rapidly taking turns to heal with, but that level of healing isn't really necessary. And having her fulfill that role keeps her from debuffing MND, which is why I would want her in the front in the first place. There isn't really a specific need that Kogasa actually fills besides a strong DRK attacker, and that's handled with Eiki and, to a lesser extent, subclasses. Even if that wasn't true, there are other characters that are more useful than her for the party composition.
Aya is one of the best characters in the game, I don't think there's anything to even talk about here.
Eirin's sole purpose was to overheal, and she does that ridiculously well. Fully buffed, at level 230 she's healing 80K when characters have about 25K HP on average. But that level of durability is not really necessary, and I think that every run that I've used her in was slowed down because of it. It was never strictly necessary or even useful to overheal with her. Bulky attackers are bulky enough without the overheal. It was just excessive. Besides the overheal, she has Astronomical Entombing, which is amazingly strong, the strongest DRK attack in the party composition (even stronger than Kogasa's A Rainy Night's Ghost Story), but runs into the same problem that Kogasa has. That isn't enough of a reason to use her for me.
Reisen's one of the characters I tend to favor because of her independence. She's really easy to buff and keep buffed with Grand Patriot's Elixir, and she does so much all by herself. Besides Lunatic Red Eyes doing solid damage while applying a 40% MND debuff plus TRR and SIL at a high success rate, she's also got a wonderfully damaging MYS attack with Mind Starmine that also applies SHK at a high rate and Discarder for debuffing everything while also doing solid damage (about 75% of what Kogasa can do on average, before applying Final Blow). With her splendid MYS and DRK affinities, she's practically immune to those attacks, so she's pretty useful for the bosses that exclusively use those elements (a decent number of them, really), although she can hardly take a powerful SPI attack even with triple Grand Master Breaker Title (but she can take it). Definitely don't regret picking her over Hina for the debuffing role, Reisen has been indispensable.
Sanae is similarly useful, in that she does a lot of things all by herself. Sanae is very unique in that she's only one of two characters that have both a racial damage boosting skill and an elemental damage boosting skill (Nitori is the other one). Having Youkai Buster and Power of the Living God is an exceptional combination, because of how many youkai bosses exist and many of the party's strong attacks are SPI element (Tenshi's Sword of Hisou for ST, Eiki's Last Judgement for defense piercing, Sanae's Night of Bright Guest Stars for MT, Miko's spell cards, and the spell cards from Murakumo's Blessing, namely Start of Heavenly Demise). This can add up to being 56% more damage just for having Sanae active, and then she's got decent durability and speed, Miracle Fruit and Yasaka's Divine Wind for support, her own spell cards being amazingly strong on Plus Disk enemies and bosses (Moses' Miracle is the party's best CLD attack, a little bit stronger than Kogasa's Drizzling Large Raindrops on average), and her Awakening letting her get in on MP recovery while further strengthening Youkai Buster. Ignoring Tenshi and Iku (since the whole point is to have those two in the party), Sanae is the best character in the party next to Aya, she's just been amazing. The combination of her damage bonuses, support, and durability are wonderful, and she is one of the best MT attackers in the party composition at the same time.
Eiki was picked for Cleansed Crystal Mirror working from the backrow after Awakening, so she hasn't served the purpose that I picked her for yet. But what she has done is be the second best attacker in the party composition, capable of hitting very hard with both ATK and MAG. Factoring in Majesty giving her a maximum ATK buff of 92% instead of 86% (with Strategist) she has slightly more ATK than Momiji, and the same amount of MAG. Cleansed Crystal Mirror gives her good durability as a bulky attacker since % damage reduction is the most effective way to reduce damage from strong attacks, and when she gets ~66% on HP Strong Faith kicks in for an amazing +3 MP regen per turn. Besides that, Rod of Remorse's MP regeneration effect kicks in regardless of what Eiki does so long as an enemy wasn't killed by it, switching and Concentration also activate it. With Keine's Organized Formation and an Instant Attack character, Eiki can rapidly regenerate 6 MP before her next action (+1 from her previous action, +2 from being switched in and out, +3 upon receiving a turn with Strong Faith), so she can spam her expensive spell cards, or quickly recover after depleting her MP (+10 with Concentration). The actual power of her spell cards is also hardly lacking. Although Last Judgement is generally inferior to Tenshi's Sword of Hisou in Plus Disk, the targets it works well on are difficult to damage otherwise, and it's still one of the strongest defense ignoring attacks in the game. Trial of the Ten Kings is yet another powerful DRK spell, being marginally weaker than Kogasa's A Rainy Night's Ghost Story but debuffs all stats while being MT. And Eiki's high ATK/MAG makes her competent at using subclass spell cards like Warrior's Explosive Flame Sword. And while it isn't often helpful, Eiki can apply SIL with any attack, which seems to happen reliably on bosses that have low SIL resistance. While none of this has anything to do with the original purpose I picked Eiki for, using her has helped me understand that it's important to have characters that contribute by being alternative attackers to the Hisouten duo, since sometimes Tenshi needs to tank and Iku's damage output, while good, is not exceptional. Eiki is a great character for this role while also being able to reduce damage for everyone, and not just for herself.
Maribel is a fantastic SHK engine, but I haven't found her particularly useful for anything else besides DRK damage (again. 5 of the characters in the current party composition possess good DRK spells, 6 for Miko post-Awakening), and Guardian's Shield Bash and Reisen's Mind Starmine, although not as effective, are sufficient for consistent SHK applications. While a 100% SHK rate is important for reducing randomness, picking a character solely for that purpose feels very limiting. Though that isn't the sole reason I selected her, but Vision Sharing seems to be really hard to set up actually. First, leading with Maribel is necessary to rapidly get her buffs up. Then you'd have to drag her to the back for (probably) the attacker to buff up. Under ideal circumstances, this would only cost a turn from everyone, but even that seems like too much compared to setting up an attacker from the get-go. The alternative is to have Maribel out in the frontline, but her only roles in the front are to heal or attack. Maribel is too dependent on Grand Incantation to perform good damage, so she isn't that great of an attacker, and healing is not something that needs to be done every turn. Having Keine, Sanae, or Miko out would be preferable, there's just no room to justify Maribel.
I haven't actually used Miko yet, but she looks to fill a very similar role to Eiki as described above. Prince Shotoku's OoPArt is ridiculous. With all of her other offensive and defensive bonuses, she is clearly one of the best candidates for a bulky attacker in the party composition, aided by her attacks being SPI element and boosted by Sanae (curious if, post-Awakening, her SPI/DRK composite will benefit from Sanae even if DRK is the targeted affinity, this would be really useful if so). Besides that, she offers another small bonus like Eiki with Prince's Lecture, boosting stat buff increases and magnification. She offers enough offensively that having her out as an alternative attacker seems like a really good idea. She looks like she has potential as a tank as well, but it seems hard to figure out how to use her like that. But she could do nothing and still be useful since Prince's Lecture works in the back and requires zero setup, unlike Maribel's Vision Sharing.
Having gone through all those, the characters I want to see about replacing are Kogasa, Eirin, and Maribel. What I'm currently looking at is
Mystia: A second Instant Attack character so that I have one in the back when Momiji is in the front. Besides that extra degree of versatility, a second Instant Attack character would allow an IA Healer when Momiji is running Warrior or Transcendent, and also give an infinite MP recovery loop with Keine's Organized Formation (though this would run Momiji's buffs down to the ground, but Iku can rapidly buff them up again), giving Momiji effectively infinite MP. Mystia looks like she could be potentially more useful than Chen besides having IA, having an actually good PSN attack and a devastating WND attack that applies SIL with the best rate in the game.
Satori: One of the things that I've learned is that passively stacking damage is worth a slot in itself. Satori adds 24% damage with Trauma Recollection for targeting weakness, which is the general idea for any boss fight. She can also copy Thundercloud Stickleback from Iku to double up on that (but she can't double up on Aya's Divine Grandson's Advent because she sets the timebar to 0 with it, which is really silly) to rapidly buff a damage dealer's ATK/MAG. Although I already thought about Satori before and decided against her, I noticed a few setups while playing through that, in retrospect, could have been improved only by Satori's presence. For example, with Grandgon, I had a 2-shot setup with Eiki that did 1.7m damage with all buffs active (line-up was Iku/Sanae/Eiki/Aya). If I had Satori, it would have been 2.1m, enough to turn that 2-shot into a 1-shot. There are other things that could have been improved by having Satori around to double up on spell cards while buffing weak point damage too. 24% is a lot of damage, between racial bonuses and specific element bonuses, while being much more versatile than either of the two, and Satori herself can be a competent buffer thanks to all the other buffing characters present in the party. If nothing else, she could just go Strategist or Herbalist and contribute more than most other characters with that 24% damage bonus.
Rumia: Gives a 20% damage bonus to humans, which are common bosses, and has some status support stuff post-Awakening, plus a good MT heal. Somewhat similar situation to Maribel in that she can heal, attack, and support at the same time, but Rumia looks to do all of that better than Maribel does since she requires no extra setup to use. Not really as useful as the above two characters though.
Yuyuko: Besides the obvious DTH stuff she has going for her, she gives a 20% damage bonus to ghosts, which are common bosses, and she's a fairly durable character so she's easy to leave out in the front as a tank, or use as an attacker.
Probably going to go with Mystia, Satori, and Yuyuko, but there's hardly any rush to try out the next revisions. Would be a waste to want to restart again after finding another area that needs improving on.
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I would say that one of the reasons you're not finding Eirin very useful is probably because your party focuses more on bulky attackers, while Eirin's overheal benefits those as well, I feel that it helps frail characters much more since it makes them easier to switch in and then helps them stay in as well.
Momiji's accuracy buff helps a lot with using Explosive Flame Sword since it has pretty bad accuracy. It's worth noting that after awakening she can buff her DEF and MND by 24% on switch so if you have 2 instant attackers she'll pretty much always be fully buffed for defenses and partially for SPD; she can also get a 24% ATK buff + 7% all stats buff on attack (so fully buffed ATK and SPD and a little bit of DEF and MND). With Eyes that Perceive Reality, it makes her very reliable both as a tank or as an attacker.
I would say Satori is usually easier to use as an HP sponge tank that focuses on her ability to increase weakness damage, maybe with Elementalist to further increase your attackers' damage while granting her more elemental resistances, low delay moves also help her because she's very slow; she also requires pretty much no buffing since her defenses and SPD are low enough it doesn't really matter too much. She can also be used as an attacker but she usually requires significant investment which you could use to better effect on your other characters (there are only a handful spells Satori uses better than their original owners). I believe with some MP boosting gems/tomes and items her Small MP Recovery with an Instant Attacker pretty much means she gets infinite MP.
Any status user synergises well with Reisen, but I would say Yuuko seems a bit redundant offensively since you already have plenty of SPI and DRK attackers, she's still useful for her ability to protect you from DTH, clearing trash and her extra damage on Ghosts though.
I haven't used any of the Plus Disc characters yet but I would say Mamizou (can abuse any weakness), Tokiko (has passives that helps keep buffs and lessen debuffs for allies and viceversa for enemies, can also increase the effects of status ailments) and Akyuu (weak stats wise but has some very unique spellcard effects, I'm also wondering if Knowledge of Gensokyo Chronicles stacks with Trauma Recollection...) show some promise.
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I'd just keep the save and revise the party without outright restarting, especially if you spent 30 hours grinding Murakamo. There'll be huge amounts of corridor and other postgame to do later once it's added in, so I wouldn't say it's a big deal that you could have done the first half or so (?) of plus-disk better.
TBH Yuyuko's damage is lower than you'd think it would be, because her of slow leveling/expensive library and especially due to her lack of any offensively helpful passives. I was really disappointed when I tried to use her; great in randoms, but was consistently meh on every boss. On the other hand, in Plus Disk you don't have the problem of all the bosses being really high def/mnd, so I guess that would help, but the only thing she really brings to the table is the Ghost damage bonus and DTH; there's a lot of bulky attackers and she's not going to be doing amazing damage herself compared to them. The bonus ghost damage for the rest of the party sn't half bad in Plus though, I'll admit.
If you've already awakened Maribel (as you talked about Vision Sharing) then maxing her passive for Liberated Abilities should make it a pretty solid damage spell versus everything, which isn't half bad. A 328% MAG alltarget that's resisted by almost nothing... it's even all-target! Granted, that part is more exciting for randoms than it tends to be for bosses. I'm not sure why Vision Sharing would be so hard either; getting it up ASAP might be a hassle I guess (but she possesses a powerful all-buff already, so..) but throughout the duration of a prolonged bossfight it should be pretty easy to get done before toooo long, shouldn't it? Not to mention she's your only MT healing in this party, which I imagine must be kinda critical sooner or later. Her main strength is being able to do all these different things at once in the same build, even if she doesn't excel too hard in any one category; MT healing, strong irresistable all-target damage, statuses, passive support even when in the backline. All things that aren't super-stellar, but good enough combined to add up into a useful character.
As for Kogasa's awakening, it really shines if you use Speedy Formation Change with multiple instant attackers to chaingun out attacks one after the other whilst healing at the same time; this synergizes with you having Keine in your party to allow you to chain turns longer without burning all the MP out. It can even possibly work for Chen if you make sure Chen can get in 2 attacks before swapout (although chen's pathetic ability to get through defense worries me; perhaps with enough tweaking to her base ATK? It helps that this setup allows you to end with Phoenix Spread Wings and still swap Chen out at no penalty. If massive MP burn is a problem, sub hexer). It also will shine in future updates when the Dragon God
subclass is added to the game, granting Healer's healing passive plus a 4% buff to all stats for the whole frontline with each turn taken, ontop of huge element affinity bonuses. She's not half-bad offensively by any means but unless TRR is out she doesn't exactly shine either, and others can debuff MND just fine (nor is it as important postgame), even if she really does have the most reliable and powerful MND debuff in the game- it's hard to justify a party slot on offensive Kogasa without big time TRR hitters like Kasen (or in the reverse line of thinking, Parsee)
If you're not interested in heavyswap kogasa or TRR synergy kogasa then you'd probably want to use someone else.
Satori is a character I want to like, but I feel like unless you do a heavily gimmicky build she just doesn't pull through. She's really frail (this is a -problem-), has no innate power to maintain survivability, has few cases of being able to launch off attacks strong enough to justify her fragility, and is real questionable to run as a tanky support due to reliance on copied skills. She can get a massive HP pool if built as tanky support (good!), but cannot self-sustain at all like other potential HP tanks (bad)- Komachi/Mokou/awaken-Minoriko. Instead she requires heal babysitting, and MT heals won't work well on her. She boosts damage, but ONLY for people who can hit the boss's weakness; all your other attackers will gain no benefit from her presence past application of general atk/mag buffs many others can provide. On the other hand, her gimmick builds have potentially devastating potential, and if you do employ enough support to keep her alive (Swappy Kogasa?) then her big HP pool -will- keep her running.
As you're already somewhat far in Plus, and a big portion of your motivation for running Satori is weakness damage boost, you might consider going a different direction and looking at Akyuu- but even with support she can't exactly stay out all the time, which Satori can manage with healing. Still, Akyuu's durability isn't as bad as it looks; with base stat increases (granted, she'd really need them), her megacheap library can be a pretty good influence, and she can megaresurrect through a few things per boss fight, so as long as she isn't kicking the bucket -too- regularly she'll be fine. Unless you want her unique support skills you'd probably rather get your weakness damage off Satori though. Kokoro theoretically will boost frontline damage too in the right emotions, but it's debatable if boosting base atk/mag over end damage would make her ~10% comparable to Akyuu's 16% (much less satori's 24%) and she brings the least support to the table.
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I'd just keep the save and revise the party without outright restarting, especially if you spent 30 hours grinding Murakamo. There'll be huge amounts of corridor and other postgame to do later once it's added in, so I wouldn't say it's a big deal that you could have done the first half or so (?) of plus-disk better.
You know, yeah, you're right. It's not just the plus disk that bothers me, but also all of the main game's postgame, but when I think about how much I've already done, going back to it just to fix that stuff when I haven't even reached anything particularly interesting just seems like a really dumb idea. My goal has been to do all of this with one party, but it should be fine to have used everything up until now just as a way to learn how to play the game. I could redo the two Murakumo fights (ordinary and Avatar) without restarting the playthrough by making an alternate save, leveling down, doing library resets, and only using equipment available at that time, then going back to the original save file, focus on actually getting through the game and reaching the interesting parts like the Infinite Corridor and Yamata no Orochi. I'd still like to do over Grandgon to make a video of one-shotting it, but that's just not worthwhile. So I won't do that. I think I'll start making alternate saves for every boss that I would want to record so I could mess around with revisiting it with different strategies without ever losing any real progress, so as to avoid a scenario where I want to restart the entire playthrough.
So that aside, character comments (both yours and Libra's)
Eirin: Yeah, when I picked her I had expected that a bulky attacker, while capable of withstanding hits, would still benefit a lot from being overhealed, but their durability is such that it isn't really worth taking advantage of. Boosting their damage output is more important than boosting their durability. Eirin does seem better suited for frail attackers, but I don't really like the prospect of building for that style unless the boss(es) can be safely annihilated in a quick time frame, which Eirin is redundant for. Besides which, neither Tenshi or Iku are well suited for the concept.
Momiji: Her Awakening skill is another reason I want to use another Instant Attack character, being able to freely sustain her DEF/MND buff all by herself is an amazing tool to have. For bosses that only target DEF, Momiji should be able to max out her DEF and negate all but the most powerful attacks like that. Against Flying bosses where Momiji can't personally attack effectively, this should allow her to perform a Strategist/Herbalist/Elementalist role while not requiring healing. By itself, this isn't particularly useful, but it's just one more strategy that Momiji can use.
Satori: Her durability is one thing that I have some concerns with. From my calculations, surviving large attacks like Avatar Murakumo's Ama no Murakumo's Wild Dance, Shadow Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps, or Shadow Mokou's Fujiyama Volcano is best done by stacking HP and affinity (as an aside, I referred to Iku as being potentially only exceeded by Komachi in . With a setup like 3x Grand Master Breaker Title, the difference between a 0% DEF buff and a 100% DEF buff amounts to about ~10% damage reduction on average for these attacks, at least for the more durable characters (I didn't think to check, for example, Reisen, because she has no business withstanding these attacks). But Satori has much lower defenses than any character I checked, and her leveling rate makes that high HP count look a little unlikely to compensate for it. Her affinities also look to be fairly average. So her durability is not really something I would be confident in assuming. Her offensive prowess also looks to be pretty much nil in the party composition I'm running, as most of the offensive spell cards run off characters with excellent ATK/MAG scores or good personal skills, so that leaves her in a pure support role. I would be fine using her strictly as an Herbalist or an Elementalist without even touching copied spell cards just to have that 24% damage boost, but if her frailty is a problem, then she just can't be used for that purpose.
Yuyuko: There are a lot of boss fights against multiple targets where at least one of them is DTH susceptible, which is what I was thinking of with Yuyuko. But thinking more about it, those will only become less common as the game goes on (I certainly can't imagine any will exist at all in the Infinite Corridor), and of the ones that I've already done, those DTH susceptible bosses could be wiped out before they could act (even Shadow Team ⑨, I was able to devise a strategy that defeated all of them except Wriggle before any enemy actions occurred, Wriggle is the only one that cannot be DTH'd at all). Although some, like Shadow Yuuka, are actually durable opponents, using DTH on them is...not really interesting. And without DTH, Yuyuko offers average damage output on redundant elements, whereas Youmu offers the same 20% damage bonus to Ghosts while covering the PHY element that my party composition is sorely lacking in. Although Momiji is competent at applying PHY damage, having a second PHY attacker might be a good idea. But mostly, Youmu would offer more than Yuyuko when it comes down to their spell cards, the only thing is that Youmu's MP costs are ridiculous (considering her max MP is so low) for the damage she inflicts.
Maribel: I haven't done any Infinite Corridor yet (my first pick for Awakening would be Tenshi anyway!), but I did examine how to most rapidly buff her while using her against Miko (Maribel's damage output was quite poor without a high MAG buff even with Grand Incantation, Miko appears to have high defensive stats) and extrapolated from that. The problem isn't so much ease of doing it as it is how much is gained from doing it instead of immediately attacking. First, Aya would have to skip her turn or give one to Maribel, then Maribel would need to be switched out after using Overflowing Unnatural Power. If Maribel is an Enhancer, she gets an 83% buff to all stats, which is a 10% buff to the frontline, at the cost of three character actions. It would lead to better results to just start attacking immediately, spending those turns buffing the primary attacker would lead to better results. Liberated Abilities is very strong post-Awakening (about 15% stronger than Tenshi's Violent Motherland, based on current stats), but the party is full of powerful MT attacks of varying elements that can strike weaknesses, which I find to be generally more important than not being resisted (at least for weak enemies, ideally the durable ones are having their weakness targeted). And for MT healing, Enhancer Keine actually does that just fine. So far, the strongest MT attacks in the game generally take out about 50% HP off characters specifically built to take hits, so Keine heals them up quickly while also buffing at the same time. Momiji and Sanae can act as backup for when this isn't enough. The only time I've actually found Mari's DIY Novice Barrier to be a priority to use was when using Maribel to attack with in the first place. While she's an extremely versatile and strong character, she doesn't do anything that makes me think of her as the character to use in a particular situation.
Kogasa: Yeah, she has a lot of cool things going for her, but they're not what I'm looking for in the character slot. She's a great switching character, but her support ability, even with the spoiler subclass, is not that high. The level of healing she provides is not really necessary (although it makes her very self-sufficient), and the buffs are small even when they add up. I generally prefer to have two characters in the tank/support role that alternate switching and using spells as appropriate for their timebars, Kogasa can't fit that role. While I do occasionally have Tenshi play a dedicated switching role, it's usually because her level of durability is necessary or because Iku is playing a bulky attacker role and needs Hisouten Guard to do that effectively. Neither of which is applicable to Kogasa, who is not very durable outside of CLD and DRK attacks (barring TRR'd targets) and doesn't do the "bulky" aspect of a bulky attacker role very well because of her affinities.
Akyuu: I think I need to seriously consider her, even though she gives a 16% weakness damage boost compared to Satori's 24%, her post-Awakening Miare's Great Knowledge grants a 50% damage boost compared to Herb of Awakening's 36% damage boost, and according to the JP wiki, it's a 6000 delay (but the EN wiki says 4000, which is correct?). Those two things combined make Akyuu capable of adding a bit more damage than Satori could (Satori + Herb of Awakening is a 68% damage boost, Akyuu + Great Knowledge is a 74% damage boost). Although it's very expensive at 11 MP, Akyuu has by far the best MP (she'd have about 60 MP by the time she's recruited, with MP Boost and MP Gems maxed), so she can afford it quite easily. And it applies to every character, great for working with two attackers. A 90% activation rate on Power of the Child of Miare is enough for me to consider it reliable, she might even be able to go max SPD in situations where she cannot survive attacks anyway, and aim to beat the boss before she runs out of TP. Looking at her more thoroughly, I get the impression that she would actually be preferable to Satori, as she offers improved ways to use the same strategies I'd use with Satori while also adding her own things. Her damage output with Super Incantation looks to have some potential as well.
Kokoro: Yeah, I don't think she's any good for support. Miko's Prince's Lecture amounts to an 8% boost to Tenshi's damage output (assuming an 86% ATK buff) when on the frontline, along with buffing all the other stats too, I'd rather use her for that kind of purpose than Kokoro. Kokoro's 10% ATK boost is about equivalent to 11% more damage for Tenshi under the same circumstances.
Taking in all of that input, I think going Mystia, Youmu, and Akyuu might be better for character changes. Youmu comes off as the weakest of the three picks, but judging from the current Infinite Corridor bosses, every single Touhou boss that shows up there is going to be a Ghost, so that's a 20% damage boost to each of them just for having Youmu out. That's going to be useful at least some of the time, probably the best racial bonus overall. And she adds another PHY attacker, although her spell card costs are...really prohibitive. The racial bonus is clearly the best reason to use her that I see, so maybe using Rumia instead would be better. Although she has fewer compatible targets for her racial bonus, she has more versatility in her personal skills, although for the most part they're a bit redundant (Demarcation for MT healing and Moonlight Ray applying all status effects post-Awakening look promising, though). Those are the main two I'm considering for the third open character slot, anyway.
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Kogasa still has her bugged 32 mp regen, right? Well, you could load her up with strong and expensive subclass skills for nuking potential, that free bonus damage to TRR is nice, and it should be really easy to land TRR with Kogasa AND Reisen.
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I don't really think that's worthwhile (at least for my party composition), TRR backed Kogasa only has 14% more ATK than Tenshi does (not counting their Awakening skills) while being considerably more frail. It's 31% post-Awakening, but she's removing TRR with 20% of her attacks and has half of Tenshi's ATK when not working with TRR, and she still won't be able to withstand many attacks, while Tenshi becomes an even better bulky attacker than she already is with a roughly 50% boost to her HP. MP regen is no big deal since there's a few ways to replenish MP, and subclass spells that scale off ATK have low costs (currently, anyway). The main advantage she has with the MP regen is being able to ignore World Devouring Calamity, which...honestly isn't that common, certainly not worth the party slot for.
Though it's undeniable that the damage bonuses on Kogasa against TRR'd opponents are tremendous, they aren't really something I see as something as a goal to make use of. There are a lot of other fantastic damage dealers that are more consistent, some more frail, some less so. Would rather use Flandre, Nitori, or Yuugi instead if the goal was solely damage, for example.
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Personally, if you're concerned with the Endless Corridor, I think including some of the "reward boosting" characters (such as Rinnosuke, Nitori, Shou, Nazrin, and Komachi) is a necessity in the long run - I've grinded TH1 for dozens of hours, and I know for a fact that, if such a char existed in TH1, I'd include it in my team no matter what.
OFC including all 5 is not that good because most of them are not even that powerful, and you need not to hamstring your efficiency in clearing corridors. Personally, I think I'll include at least Nitori (by far the most powerful of them, offense-wise) and Shou (Radiant Treasure Gun's bonuses are too big to ignore). But I'm also considering Rinnosuke, given his massive stats and item/money drop boosts.
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I haven't really put a lot of thought into that stuff yet tbh, it's not something I can really gauge well, weighing combat performance and the ability to grind more easily. The Infinite Corridor drops don't seem that important compared to accumulating lots of Seven Star Dust to trade-in for items. But in order to acquire the best gear like Machine God Lucifer, you need to be able to beat the boss(es) on the way through in order to accumulate enough to get the items. But there's also a guaranteed Infinite Jewel if you get all of the items on a floor too, and the quality of them, while not MGL tier (I assume), is surely high. It might just be better to focus on exploring? It's certainly an alternative, one that I was more inclined to attempt. If it turns out that grinding is really important, then maybe I'll just use some characters subclassed as an Appraiser.
I think I will go with Rumia for the 12th party slot, I thought about it and figured that with Keine's Impervious Formation Change, she can basically turn anyone into an Instant Attacker, so I should look at what each character offers with that kind of perspective. Any character with a MT heal would be able to do what Healer Momiji does to a much greater effect (freeing Momiji and Mystia up to be things like Herbalist, Elementalist, or attackers), and of those characters, I figure Rumia is the most useful to have. Besides that purpose, she can apply all status and debuffs post-Awakening and has the Human racial damage bonus, plus really strong MYS damage, something that Iku is competent at, but not especially so.
Though, actually, looking at it like that, maybe Maribel would be better after all, but I don't like the prospect of being in a situation where Mari's DIY Novice Barrier is necessary to use, but Akyuu's 50% Boost is in play, since Maribel would override the stronger boost with her weaker one. This would be applicable to Eiki's 150% Boost from her Awakening skill as well, should it come in handy (and it likely would), and Akyuu's Super Incantation too. Rather not deal with that possibility.
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I haven't really put a lot of thought into that stuff yet tbh, it's not something I can really gauge well, weighing combat performance and the ability to grind more easily. The Infinite Corridor drops don't seem that important compared to accumulating lots of Seven Star Dust to trade-in for items. But in order to acquire the best gear like Machine God Lucifer, you need to be able to beat the boss(es) on the way through in order to accumulate enough to get the items. But there's also a guaranteed Infinite Jewel if you get all of the items on a floor too, and the quality of them, while not MGL tier (I assume), is surely high. It might just be better to focus on exploring? It's certainly an alternative, one that I was more inclined to attempt. If it turns out that grinding is really important, then maybe I'll just use some characters subclassed as an Appraiser.
I do agree that item drops are prolly unimportant - especially since, unlike in TH1, the sell price stays the same regardless of how many item you got. Gold and exp bonuses, on the other hand, still seem really valuable to me. This makes Shou in particular very interesting - once awakened, Shou's xp and gold bonus droprates are 3 and 7 times what you'd get from an Appraiser, respectively. And this doesn't even count the bonus you get from finishing off foes with Radiant Treasure Gun. Rinnosuke is also quite important - it has the same kind of boost as Komachi, but with comparably higher stats. Plus, its presence on the front line increases Shou's damage output as well.
At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up? If so, it may become rly complicated to figure out just how many Appraisers you should run to find the right balance between clearing capability and maximum rewards - I imagine you should prolly start with next to no Appraisers, then swap them over time as your level advantage increases. It would be nice if, at least with xp and gold rewards, somebody could test whether multiple appraisers stack up or not.
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I'm sure appraiser stacks, if only because the bonus is so low that you'd need to run like a party full of them to get any appreciable difference. It should be easy to tell because as far as I recall, all the % increase on reward passives just add directly onto the displayed win bonus %s at the end. This also makes those 3% end of battle bonuses wimpier; once your battle chain goes up, you're getting 153% gold instead of 150%. So it's even less than 3%, and it's probably only 1% if they're in back.
The 10% increases on kill ontop of that makes it enough to consider using when you have a big level advantage, though. The main problem at that point becomes, jeez, what a pain to swap a bunch of party members to appraisers and then swap them all back to normal classes after. On 20f grind you're likely getting the killing hit in with the same member a lot (flan, nitori, kaguya) and can get high benefit off swapping just two or three people, but on infinite corridor stampeding you don't have that luxury as much.
In terms of bringing people for grind... Nitori and Nazrin are mostly just for item drops. Nazrin has bonuses for gold/exp too, but since it's only for her landing the killing hit, in the long run it's not gonna be a significant difference enough to care unless you're just grindspotting one floor like 20F and have enough overlevels to spam killing blows with double exp. Nitori's also likely one of the last awakenings you'd grab for your party of 12, because it's really weak other than item drop boost, unless you're using most of her team synergy members (to be fair, they're pretty strong members to use). Rinnosuke/Shou is a potent combo, on the other hand. I probably wouldn't keep using Rinno deep into Plus unless you're running Shou, but he makes her pretty solid. Komachi I probably wouldn't use late plus at all TBH; once you can put 200+ levelup bonuses into HP, the other characters with high regen just plain become better regen tanks than Komachi, IMO; especially in super-postgame considering Minoriko and Mokou's awakenings are way more useful than Komachi's. She's still kinda viable offensively if you really like her or really like HP sponge attackers, I suppose; hp+regen would still be nice and her counter helps make up for lower damage, Avici I think gets pretty usable post-awakening. ("It's only 80% attack though!" Yeah, but Avici has a really high multiplier assuming it still works like that, so it's like 160% attack ontop of 400% mag without any increase in the def/mnd the attack goes through, ontop of stauses it gives her a pretty good alltarget.)
...uh, I kinda went off on a tangent there. Nazrin/Nitori are still potentially solid party members without their farming bonuses, in any case. Nazrin's awakening is really solid and she has good synergies with Byakuren/Shou, Nitori is ridiculous as usual, etc. S'just, especially if item drops are less important, Shou/Rinno is probably the only combo I'd say to consider putting in just for farming bonuses.
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I kinda agree with your analysis Serela, though I definitely could use more feedback about the Endless Corridor - for example, are bosses harder or easier than randoms, comparatively? And if so, how much?
With these answers set in stone it would be easier to guess which chars to use for reward boosting. But at a first glance I'd say you're right: I would probably begin with Shou and Rinnosuke and, as the level advantage keeps increasing, converting one or more chars to Appraiser class as needed.
My only worry with this strategy would be whether Rinnosuke is usable without one of the three "uber" subclasses, since I do plan to assign them to other characters. Maybe Rinno could work as an Archmage, for clearing floors?
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Using Rinnosuke offensively is highly dubious, imo; even after high boost his atk/mag are only just enough and he lacks a single offensive passive. On the flipside, in postgame you get enough skillpoints to make him -very- bulky even when built offensively, so I guess it wouldn't be soooo bad for randoms. Still, the MP cost on archmage's alltargets is intense. Swordmaster is a little better but the NTR move is kinda weak and Iai Slash may as well not exist, so I guess Swordmaster and Archmage both have their ups and downsides.
You'd probably just want to build him as a supportive tank though, because bosses exist. His switching is outranked by Keine but it's still pretty good, and once you can afford to max high boosts for atk/mag, First Aid is actually a decent-ish heal I think? Post-awakening his skillset actually becomes competent support, and you can either sub enchanter to make the buff/heal mix better or Magician to spam the heck out of his low-cost low-delay kit whilst enjoying it's newfound strength. Battle Command doling out 33% all-buffs combined with it's low delay and Magician's regen will let him keep characters topped off easily, with First Aid on the side for healing, actually sounds... useful. It's not all that bad before awakening either, s'just his buffing power caps at 18%, which is a bit low, and first aid won't buff at all, so you'd probably sub healer or pharmacologist.
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At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up?
I'm sure appraiser stacks, if only because the bonus is so low that you'd need to run like a party full of them to get any appreciable difference. It should be easy to tell because as far as I recall, all the % increase on reward passives just add directly onto the displayed win bonus %s at the end.
Checked in-game with 4 Appraisers in the frontline, Appraiser does not stack with other Appraisers.
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Huh, well at least there's no worry about making a buttload of them then. Although only one means the bonuses are so small there's hardly even a point in having it.
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You'd probably just want to build him as a supportive tank though, because bosses exist. His switching is outranked by Keine but it's still pretty good, and once you can afford to max high boosts for atk/mag, First Aid is actually a decent-ish heal I think? Post-awakening his skillset actually becomes competent support, and you can either sub enchanter to make the buff/heal mix better or Magician to spam the heck out of his low-cost low-delay kit whilst enjoying it's newfound strength. Battle Command doling out 33% all-buffs combined with it's low delay and Magician's regen will let him keep characters topped off easily, with First Aid on the side for healing, actually sounds... useful. It's not all that bad before awakening either, s'just his buffing power caps at 18%, which is a bit low, and first aid won't buff at all, so you'd probably sub healer or pharmacologist.
Actually, Murakumo's Former Owner only works with healing spells so it doesn't affect Battle Command (still 18%), not sure if the heal from Heart of Prayers may apply it though.
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Curse you, vague descriptions!
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Curse you, vague descriptions!
Evil descriptions are evil.
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Speaking of descriptions, Yuuka's tormenting nature (deal more damage the lower hp they are) doesn't work the way described. It actually works in the opposite way, dealing more damage the healthier they are. However it doesn't work at all if the enemy is full hp.
Tests against the foe on second floor to get a bloated hp pool (hp %'s are estimated). All use flower shot with no buffs on Yuuka, as well as no subclass skills, debuffs, nor damage boosts from other skills.
100%: 7735
99%: 11977
75%: 11439
50%: 10353
10%: 8547
Tried each a couple of times, especially the 10% and 99% cases to make sure the range was big enough to discredit randomness, so I'm pretty confident that it is working in a fashion that was not intended.
Edit: Suika has the same problem too with her skill Free-Spirited Oni.
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Wierd. Well, it would matter more if I used either, but I don't usually run them so eh. Still, I wish they could properly descriptionize these things.
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At the same time, what you told me makes me wonder: do multiple Appraiser bonuses stack up?
They do stack. Apparently there's a bug involved with them that cause the display to act as if only one instance is in effect, but actually all of them are.
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This is a pretty amazing doujin game, best one I've seen imo, but gosh, why are there so many weird bugs.
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To be fair, he probably doesn't even know about a lot of these, which leads to them going unfixed. The plus disk release fixed about all the non-insignificant bugs that were known at the time, AFAIK. (Granted, it introduced a bunch of new ones, of which maybe half or so were fixed.) There's something to be said for testing, but with such a massive array of abilities across the cast, errors are bound to come up. The main problem is probably just that many of the errors go unnoticed for too long. (Although there's still some things like Futo's plate count going down from being healed or buffed, hopefully to be fixed in the theroetically still upcoming major patch.)
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Edit: Nevermind I solved it!
I tried recruiting Flandre Scarlet by following the events on floor 10, 11 and 12 as explained on the wikipedia page: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_5#Flandre_Scarlet
I already have both Mokou and Kaguya recruited but I can't find the event with the crater on floor 10. I might have already found it but forgotten about it (since I started playing this a year ago). So I went to floor 11 as told, but there was no event. Floor 12, no event either. I passed the rock requiring 60 achievements, but no Flandre there either.
I've included screenshots of the maps of floor 10, 11 and 12. I know that a red "!" would indicate an event, but the only ones I see are from spawn points, color orbs or rocks. I've spent a few hours searching for a solutuin already but haven't found any yet.
I'm out of ideas now, so please help me find Flandre
Floor 10: https://i.imgur.com/fv5rynj.png
Floor 11: https://i.imgur.com/mYxeh3S.png
Floor 12: https://i.imgur.com/lFo6ULB.png
No Flandre: https://i.imgur.com/HF2sl6Y.png
Edit: It turned out I had already done the events on floor 10 and 11, so I was missing the event on the south-eastern part of floor 12. I missed it while searching around floor 12, and I thought the red "!" was a spawn point instead. Well I found it now thanks to a playthrough on Youtube.
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Kinda dead here
Went on a break for a few weeks and resumed playing recently, started on that Infinite Corridor grind. So far I've just been exploring 1f for treasure, exiting, and repeating. The amount of stuff that you can get from treasure seems to be almost without limits, got two Scourge in a row (one from a 4! treasure, then a 2! treasure), a Medicine of Life (1280% HP and +128 to PSN/PAR/SIL/DTH), a Tokugawa Doubling Gold from a 2! chest (the main equipment tied with Machine God Lucifer as the most expensive item in terms of Seven Star Dust) and 3 of the materials used to create things like Machine God Lucifer after several hours. Rate of acquiring Infinite Stones seems to be about 20 an hour on average (even 1! chests can give upwards of 5 Stones at once if you're fortunate), but I just found out that the amount of Infinite Stones you can carry at once is capped at 200. That's kind of important to know, so mentioning that as a heads up!
So far I've only seen one 5! chest, but all it contained was Earth Armor (+172% DEF, +50 to all status), an item that drops from 2! chests pretty consistently. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that you can pretty much acquire any item from any level of chest, and they just have different drop rates depending on the level.
Haven't really seen much talk about Infinite Corridor though, how many people are there?
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Another victim of the 200 stones cap here, planned to stockpile 600 only to realise that my stash wasn't growing up probably at around 220~250 pieces.
It's been some time but you can get machine god lucifer in 40~50 floors though it's risky, so I went for scourge in 20~30 floors past this encounters level gets a too high lead, can retry boss battle without changing initial composition whereas wipe from random encounters is a straight game over.
Wrote down items I got from 5! and 4! chests if it interests you, too bad didn't input frequency.
5!
20個 無限の宝石
ブル－クリスタルロッド
クリスタルのおまもり
パワードラゴンスケイルメイル
究極の叡智「コデックス」
ウルンセルの刃
TNTパラノイア
スクル－ジュ
生命の薬
ロング・ソード「リンギ－ル」
トゥプシマティ
2個 オリハルコン
2個 アダマンタイト
鉄人のハチマキ
4!
3個 活力の宝球
3個 魔導の宝珠
5~10個 無限の宝石
猛特訓の書・攻撃
徳川倍増金
英雄の盾
ブルークリスタルロッド
ロング・ソード『紅蓮姫』
妖精「ナビィ」
TNTパラノイア
菊刀・菊龍征
オリハルコン
アダマンタイト
鉄人のハチマキ
As fun and thrilling battling random encounters can get there isn't enough reward for it even during lucky or risky floors, it's merely a way to open chests when running out of amulet and key.
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To preface this, I've finished the entirety of the currently available Plus Disk content (except for that one super high-level boss since I want to fight it when you're intended to, it actually seems kinda easy if I build around it at level 550) including the currently available Endless Corridor stuff.
I didn't keep track of my rewards from the 4! and 5! chests (Or anything really), but I know for a fact that in 17 hours of grinding 1F (Yes, I did spend that much time grinding) that I never got a single Machine God Lucifer, and the three Tokugawa Statues/Doubling Golds (No idea what they are honestly) I got were from 3! chests.
On the first run I got a Scourge from the dust system but other than that I've only bought orbs with dust. Oh, and the 17 hours ended me up with 15 of the material used to make MGLs, so I had 5 as soon as I got the recipe.
The rarest item for me (Besides MGL) was Longsword Ringils, of which I got 2. I believe they were both from 5! chests.
Also, I highly recommend *against* grinding Endless Corridor super hard, I only have two Plus Disk runs (I'm working on a third though), but the one that grinded Endless Corridor had a much easier time and was just overstatted compared to the enemies, even with keeping library levels at 250/40 until level 450. The items you get are just so strong compared to what I feel the game is balanced around you having, even though you technically have access to all of it as soon as you get access to the corridor. Not to mention gems/orbs are strong too.
I recorded all of the boss fights of Plus Disk on the super overpowered run, so if anyone wants to see those just ask I guess.
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Ah, is this your channel? https://www.youtube.com/user/TheKawaiiChen
YT had it listed on "Related Channels" while I was looking at mine, so I looked at all the Infinite Corridor stuff since not many people have uploaded for that. Particularly the 60f boss, Permitter of Destruction (at least, that's how I'd translate it, basic gist of the name is "One that allows destruction"), didn't see any videos of it at all prior. Oh wait I didn't see your nickname at first
I'm hitting on about 12 hours or so on the Infinite Corridor grind now, got 2 Tokugawa Doubling Golds (got a second one just minutes after the last post I made) and still only 3 of the MGL material. 333 Infinite Stones acquired in total so far. Right now I'm just trying to futureproof by getting everything I could possibly want (12 of each Second/Mega Boost item, 120 of each stat gem), gonna mess around with the bosses to try to find the right balance for them and see if there are any more improvements I can make to the team composition. I'm finding the Infinite Corridor grind pretty fun, especially compared to Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi farming (spent about 30 hours doing that to get 120 of each stat orb), wouldn't mind doing it for another hundred hours (building a music playlist with the game muted while I'm doing this anyway, Infinite Corridor's BGM is really awful lol).
After doing all of that would come grinding out levels in preparation for the next part of Plus Disk, but eh...based on how almost all Infinite Corridor bosses have a level gap of 36 between them, and the fact that there are datamined achievements that go up to 512
, the highest point should be around 2000
minimum, depending on if it goes higher than that or not (which it likely does). Although it doesn't have to stick to the established pattern, of course.
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Yep, that's my channel. The 60F boss in particular I was really bad at facing, I don't understand Japanese at all so its gimmick is hard to ascertain and I was also just super overconfident.
I agree with you on the grind being fun -- I don't know what it is, it's just super satisfying. Personally I really enjoy the Infinite Corridor's music though, both the floor and battle themes. Little disappointed that the boss theme is just the FOE theme though.
EDIT: Also I was really bad about optimizing equipment and such overall during that run, I'm disappointed by that but I'm pretty lazy.
I also barely used Flan. She was nice for oneshotting randoms, at least.
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Ah, the 60f boss just uses the same self-defense lowering Shell Melter technique that the 6f boss Blue Orchid uses, plus its unique move "Countdown: Ragnarok", which just stacks a counter that gives it a 10% ATK boost with every use, nothing too special. The boss' defense is supposed to be so high that you have to wait for it to lower its defense to deal reasonable damage to it, but you can't wait too much or its ATK will get out of control. Since it's weak to SPI, I think Eiki can annihilate it pretty easily with Last Judgement, gonna try messing around with that kind of strategy when I reach it.
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Since it's weak to SPI, I think Eiki can annihilate it pretty easily with Last Judgement, gonna try messing around with that kind of strategy when I reach it.
...Huh. On my first run that I got up to 60F corridor with everything else completed on, I could've sworn it was resistant to Spirit. I might be confusing it with Diamond Knight. That certainly would've made the fight much easier, Kaguya would've destroyed it, though she'd probably still get oneshot through Eirin silliness.
It's also weak to Silence and Heavy in my experience, if you ever need to mess around with that.
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Yeah, Diamond Knight resists SPI, that's probably it then. I'm going off the affinity charts on the JP wiki. It also confirms a SIL and HVY weakness for the 60f boss, big old dark red X (0-9) resistance there. Though, from doing math calculations, Eiki should be able to 2HKO the boss after stacking a ton of damage boosters (Murakumo subclass, 150% Boost from Black and White Reversal, element/racial/weakness damage boosts, etc). Since that kind of strategy requires Eiki to Concentrate (taking a total of 3 actions, first hit should take off about 3/4ths of the boss' HP), it should be impossible to defeat it before it takes any actions even with Strategist getting 10000 ATB for everyone at the start, but 1-2 turns should be doable. Think what I'll do for that is go Iku/Sanae/Akyuu/Aya, have Aya switch Eiki in at the start, buff Eiki with the rest of the party (Akyuu'll go Elementalist), and switch Iku for Momiji for the racial bonus. Could probably skip Momiji and switch in Aya instead for Divine Grandson's Advent to immediately get that second Last Judgement in, gotta check in-game to make sure everything'll work like I expect it to.
If the boss has 50 SPI affinity and not 60 like I'm assuming, a one-shot should be possible (60 > 50 is roughly a 33% increase in damage), but I'm pretty sure it's 60. Both are handled by a red X symbol, but 60 is much more common for bosses to pack based on the enemy stats for the main game.
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After spending a lot of time getting the SPD debuff off on Yukari's Mesh of Light and Darkness on resistant and non-resistant enemies alike, in both Plus Disk and the original game, I think I can say the Wiki is wrong on the SPD debuff's efficacy. Every single time I've landed it, regardless of the resistance of the enemy (I can't really test 70+ SPD resist since that's the maximum chance of the spellcard), in both the original game and Plus Disk, it's been a -50% SPD debuff. I figured I'd mention this here since I'm not sure anyone's ever mentioned it, and it makes Yukari quite good against enemies with low/no SPD debuff resistance. It's also AOE, so that's nice.
EDIT: Should probably mention that yes, this is about LoT2.
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Oh, that's interesting. Here's what it says in the spell card extractor.
Mesh of Light and Darkness
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MP : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 5)
Target : All Foes
Element(s): SPI
Delay : 50.00%
Formula : 120% MAG - 50% MND
Multiplier: 1.20
If level is greater than or equal to 2
Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)
Apply passive bonuses.
If unknown_0008.06EC is greater than or equal to 12
Set mp to 0
Set atk to 0
Set mag to 88
Set unknown_00C8 to 0
Set unknown_00CC to 0
Set def to 0
Set mnd to 50
Set multiplier to 132
Set accuracy to 0
Set delay to 3200
Set ailmPAR.power to (ailmPAR.power + 3800)
Set ailmPAR.chance to (ailmPAR.chance + level * 4 + 50)
Set buffSPD.power to (buffSPD.power - 2500)
Set buffSPD.chance to (buffSPD.chance + level * 4 + 50)
-2500 SPD is not -25% SPD, it's -2500% SPD. Check out Cirno's Icicle Fall for comparison.
Icicle Fall
-------------------------
MP : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 3)
Target : Single Foe
Element(s): CLD
Delay : 53.00%
Formula : 80% ATK + 80% MAG - 50% DEF
Multiplier: 1.60
If level is greater than or equal to 2
Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)
Apply passive bonuses.
Set buffSPD.power to (buffSPD.power - 44)
Set buffSPD.chance to (((level - 1) * 6) + buffSPD.chance + 88)
-44% SPD as intended. Looks like this was an oversight by the developer, it probably is supposed to be -25% SPD, not -2500%. Nice find.
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-44% SPD as intended. Looks like this was an oversight by the developer, it probably is supposed to be -25% SPD, not -2500%. Nice find.
I noticed it as soon as I started my most recent run and Yukari slowed 1F Youmu down to -50% in a single Mesh of Light and Darkness, and I kept track of it for the whole game (I'm about to fight Murakumo on that run).
As for something else that I don't think most people have experience with yet, Plus Disk buffed Youmu is *still* pretty bad for the maingame. I imagine once you can max out a spellcard of choice she'll get a big boost to her damage, but just the 50% from Swordmaster's Spirit isn't enough to make her entirely worth using. She is cute, though. I'll definitely update on if Youmu is still pretty rough or not once I get to current late-game Plus Disk. I also think her WND spell might be her best spellcard most of the time just because its delay is so low.
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As for something else that I don't think most people have experience with yet, Plus Disk buffed Youmu is *still* pretty bad for the maingame. I imagine once you can max out a spellcard of choice she'll get a big boost to her damage, but just the 50% from Swordmaster's Spirit isn't enough to make her entirely worth using. She is cute, though. I'll definitely update on if Youmu is still pretty rough or not once I get to current late-game Plus Disk. I also think her WND spell might be her best spellcard most of the time just because its delay is so low.
Well, most of the new skills introduced are very expensive so you can't really get them until at the very least halfway through the maingame, since Youmu also didn't get any stat changes, she's just as bad as before during the early to mid maingame and Swordmaster's Spirit doesn't help too much against enemies with high defenses since it increases final damage. I was expecting her to be pretty bad until the actual Plus Disc were enemies have more reasonable defenses and she has enough skill points to max her spells, as well as being able to increase her ATK with gems and obviously the Awakening skills.
I did use her in my most recent playthrough and found Momiji to be better at actually dealing damage against bosses since she's way easier to use (doesn't need to concentrate as often, can buff her own SPD, has Instant Attack, ignores buffs), that said, Youmu is surpisingly good at wiping out random encounters once she learns Swordmaster's Spirit since WND and NTR are common weaknesses in the later maingame floors, as well as the jungle and desert extra floors (you do need the Guardian subclass for the low delay concentrate though).
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My subclass suggestions:
Reimu: Healer (Reimu has a very powerful healing spell which also affects all allies as a cherry on top.)
Marisa: Archmage (Her lack of move type variety makes Archmage a must-have.)
Rinnosuke: Appraiser (Not a very useful buffer nor healer. Appraiser's skills work very well in conjunction with Rinnosuke's.)
Keine: Enhancer (Mediocre magic stat, but she has two useful buffing spells which affect all allies.)
Momiji: Warrior (Good attack and defence stats. Her spells are pretty strong too so I would like to take advantage of Enhanced Normal Attack.)
Youmu: Swordmaster (What else? She wields two swords and she even has a skill named Swordmaster's Spirit.)
Kogasa: Warrior (Only good subclass I can suggest. Just maximize her attack.)
Rumia: Sorcerer (Has a great mind-ignoring spell so it would make sense to utilize this subclass's passive benefits.)
Cirno: Swordmaster (Icicle Fall can already debuff an enemy's speed to the minimum amount so hexer would be redundant. I chose swordmaster to give her more elemental variety.)
Minoriko: Magician (Gaining the ability to give MP to allies makes her an even more versatile cleric.)
Komachi: Monk (The Shinigami's Work coupled with Area Normal Attack makes her a boon for random encounters.)
Chen: Hexer (This is a pretty gimmicky setup. Chen's self buff boosts her Attack up, but causes her defenses to plummet. Combining this buff with the Hexer's Conversion allows Chen to recover HP and MP each turn proportional to the strength of debuffs on her.)
Nitori: Transcendent (Maintenance and the transcendent's base stat increases can work wonders.)
Parsee: Warrior (Toxicologist's skills don't seem very useful the Parsee so I'll just buff her attack for the time being.)
Wriggle: Toxicologist (Pretty obvious choice. The stronger the poison she inflicts, the more her stats will increase from Kodoku Queen.)
Kaguya: Sorcerer (Kaguya pretty much ignores the enemy's defenses whenever she attacks so it would make sense to maximize damage output.)
Mokou: Guardian (In the plus disk version, Mokou aquires the Sheer Force ability, which ignores an enemy's elemental and status affinities. This means that she is guaranteed to shock an enemy using shield bash.)
Aya: Dive (EXTREMELY OP!!!!!!)
Mystia: Magician (Soothing Type? ability restores 1 MP to your allies when Mystia concentrates, so it would make sense to make her a magician.)
Kasen: Warrior (Kasen already has a self-buff which might be arguably better than Swordmaster's Stance. She would also benefit more from warrior's passives as she already has elemental diversity.)
Nazrin: Appraiser: (Her spells focus on increasing post-battle rewards, which means appraiser is the best fit.)
Hina: Hexer (Hina lives, breathes, and eats debuffs.)
Rin: Warrior (Great speed, okay attack.)
Utsuho: Sorcerer (Second highest magic stat in the game. Increase it as much as you can.)
Satori: Transcendent (I couldn't think of any better subclass so help me out.)
Yuugi: Warrior (Self-explanatory. Second highest attack stat in the game.)
Meiling: Warrior (Mountain Breaker is already ridiculous. Choose the warrior subclass to make it more ridiculous. If you want a more conservative approach, guardian works well too.)
Alice: Sorcerer (Only subclass I can recommend.)
Patchouli: Gambler (Patchouli already has crap defenses but the highest magic stat in the game so gambler is a very sensible choice. Great Library's Infinite Repertoire and High Stakes cancel each other out so you won't have to worry about MP reserves.)
Eirin: Healer (She's capable of overheal along with a great magic stat. And besides she has a red cross.)
Reisen: Hexer (Spam Discarder in conjunction with Enhanced Hexes for best results.)
Sanae: Enhancer (Level 5 Miracle Fruit + Enhanced Buffing = All Stats +48%)
Iku: Hexer/Toxicologist (I can't decide between the two. Help me out.)
Suika: Warrior (I can't think of any other subclass.)
Ran: Enhancer (Pair Super-Fast Hard Arithmetic with Enhancer's Heart of Prayers and you can heal everyone including the reserve party.)
Remilia: Swordmaster (Remilia already has strong self-buff and she could use more spells.)
Sakuya: Warrior (Lunar Clock along with Jack the Ludo Bile will increase her speed as well as her attack.)
Kanako: Sorcerer (She already has spells which cover four elements and I wouldn't recommend sacrificing MaxMP and Base HP for an increase in BAse Magic.)
Suwako: Gambler (Her defenses are crap but her attack and magic stats are extremely high.)
Tenshi: Guardian/Strategist/Prophet (I included prophet because of Tenshi's natural ability to remove enemy buffs. Besides that, I can't seem to decide between the three.)
Flandre: Gambler (Screw defense, make her kill faster. She's all about damage. She even has a skill named Roulette of Destruction.)
Yuyuko: Sorcerer (Enhancing Deadly Swallowtail Lance with Enhanced Row Attack is a nice combo.)
Yuuka: Sorcerer (Self-explanatory. High magic stat so buff it.)
Yukari: Archmage (Archmage's self-buff will last longer in conjunction with First Category Perpetual Motion Device.)
Byakuren: Strategist (Make her buffs decay slower so she won't have to spam Sutra - Duplicating Chant.)
Eiki Shiki: Gambler (If you can't decide on increasing attack or magic, why not Zoidberg?)
Renko: Enhancer (Heart of Prayers will soften the HP loss induced from Charge.)
Maribel: Sorcerer (Vision Sharing means that Mind Assault will grant +4% magic buff to everyone.)
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I'll start this off by saying a lot of your choices are team dependent ones in that some of them are tanks that can also be used as attackers and vice-versa.
My subclass suggestions:
Rinnosuke: Appraiser (Not a very useful buffer nor healer. Appraiser's skills work very well in conjunction with Rinnosuke's.)
Rinnosuke's healing is quite good late-Plus when you can max one of High ATK/MAG boost, and even better if you max both. Especially since buffed Rinno's healing is even stronger.
His buffing isn't that good, yes, but Enhancer gives him a 35?%ish DEF/MND buff to a single target on 7000 delay along with 15% to ATK/MAG/SPD and being a heal. It also makes Precise Information do the same thing but AoE and 5000 delay, though the heal is percentage. Unfortunately Heart of Prayers (Whichever one is healing a % of HP on buffing) doesn't work with anything besides Battle Command.
Personally I prefer Magician though, even if it gives him less to do than spam First Aid and Form Changes, since he'll never have to concentrate.
Youmu: Swordmaster (What else? She wields two swords and she even has a skill named Swordmaster's Spirit.)
I don't know for sure on this one since Youmu doesn't get that much of a benefit out of having more spellcard variety and more-so passives, but the one passive Swordmaster has might be excellent with her Awakening since it's a large base ATK boost. Personally I prefer Monk, but Guardian is good as well and again her Awakening might change things massively. After all you want to keep her at 1HP so Monk's regen is not that good.
Komachi: Monk (The Shinigami's Work coupled with Area Normal Attack makes her a boon for random encounters.)
Monk is great yeah. I like Warrior to make her Cold spell better but that's a team dependant sorta thing.
Mokou: Guardian (In the plus disk version, Mokou aquires the Sheer Force ability, which ignores an enemy's elemental and status affinities. This means that she is guaranteed to shock an enemy using shield bash.)
Aya: Dive (EXTREMELY OP!!!!!!)
Sheer Force doesn't completely ignore Elemental/Status affinities, it's just ignoring 1/3rd for Ailments. Which is still great -- she can land Shock on a lot of things and her ATK/MAG debuff gets better. She can also subclass Herbalist to make use of that 4MP regen if you're going the tank route. Attacking Mokou prefers Monk overall I think.
Diva is nerfed in Plus Disk so Diva Aya isn't that good anymore. I haven't seen it tested since then though so yeah. I like Warrior on her, personally, but there's a lot she can do thanks to her high speed. I've heard she makes a neat Healer.
Patchouli: Gambler (Patchouli already has crap defenses but the highest magic stat in the game so gambler is a very sensible choice. Great Library's Infinite Repertoire and High Stakes cancel each other out so you won't have to worry about MP reserves.)
It's team-dependent, if you have SDM crew her bulk becomes quite strong with the bonuses and base-stat increases you can get in Plus Disk. If you have Eirin too she can tank a lot of stuff. Gambler is great otherwise though, absolutely. Her being bulky allows her to stay out and utilize High Speed Aria well, which I enjoy.
Satori: Transcendent (I couldn't think of any better subclass so help me out.)
Again, team-dependent. I use Sorcerer in my current run where she can copy Gathering and Dissipating, Deadly Swallow-tail Lance, Hyperactive Flying Object and Moses' Miracle for a strong boost to those along with the standard buffs Sorcerer gives. Transcendent works as well and I'm sure there's a lot of other options, such as physical ones or Archmage, which I might use once I get to Plus.
Yukari: Archmage (Archmage's self-buff will last longer in conjunction with First Category Perpetual Motion Device.)
If you use her as an attacker Sorcerer is way better. It makes her WND attack insanely good and she'll permenantly be at +100% MAG with a strategist out. As a tank/support, Strategist is the only option I've found that fits. She doesn't need more spellcards and she usually sits out due to her amazing passives.
Chen: Hexer (This is a pretty gimmicky setup. Chen's self buff boosts her Attack up, but causes her defenses to plummet. Combining this buff with the Hexer's Conversion allows Chen to recover HP and MP each turn proportional to the strength of debuffs on her.)
It's definitely gimmicky, but it's not that good unfortunately. On the first turn of having -50% DEF/MND she'll restore 2MP but every turn after that she'll only restore 1MP. It's much better to go Warrior to make her damage absolutely bonkers on Phoenix Spread Wings and also to give her less ATK buff decay, which is also really important for her.
Iku: Hexer/Toxicologist (I can't decide between the two. Help me out.)
Suika: Warrior (I can't think of any other subclass.)
Iku as Hexer doesn't work too well due to the same reasons as Chen. Especially since she only has a 70% chance to land each debuff once subbed Hexer, and it reduces what you can use as equipment on her due to losing out on all ailment resist items. I don't know why you'd go Toxicologist, but attacking Iku can sub Monk for all-target normal attacks, Sorcerer for single-target ones, or Enhancer/Herbalist for support stuff.
Suika should almost always sub Monk, it fits her wonderfully as a bulky attacker.
Utsuho: Sorcerer (Second highest magic stat in the game. Increase it as much as you can.)
Transcendant gives more MAG than Sorcerer does, and while you don't get buff upkeep Utsuho doesn't really need that with how much delay her attacks have. You can just re-buff her if you need to. It also makes her significantly tankier, which is a huge boon for Utsuho.
There's a few more in there that are just choices or differences on running a character as an attacker or tank/support but I'll leave them be since this is already getting too long since I got carried away.
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I think almost all of your suggestions were things people already thought up and already ran themselves. The two interesting ones that popped out to me though were Sorcerer Utsuho and Magician Mystia (Diva Aya is dead by the way, Diva got nerfed pretty darn hard).
Edit: I don't actually remember what the specific nerfs were. All I remember was that after reading them, I no longer considered Diva Aya to be a thing. Healer Aya is great though. I personally use Monk to help with delay costs but primarily because TP, SPD, and EVA were the stats I care about most. If my specific party set up didn't have a Healer already, Healer Aya is definitely the subclass I'd go for.
Before I go on though, I want to remind you that LoT2 is great in that you can build characters in a lot of different ways. Some are less effective than others but they still work if you want the character to function that way (have fun trying to make Patchy into a tank though...). Some subclasses on some characters are team dependent, but I don't care about that in my analysis.
I would have thought to run Transcendent on Utsuho to help with her Fighting Spirit stacks and Overheating stacks. Helps with her survival since her defensive stats aren't actually that bad.
Magician Mystia is just weird to me since she's a Physical attacker and you're giving her a Magic based class purely based on her being able to restore 1 MP when Concentrating.... which she almost should never being doing since she's so frail. You'd much rather have a tanky character spread Magic Circuit to everyone, than have Mystia waste time Concentrating. If Mystia needed MP, you'd switch her out. If your other members needed MP, Magic Transfer is so much better than Concentrating as Mystia so...
Oh wait, your suggestion for Iku is also kind of weird to me, I see her taking a supporting class like Healer or Enhancer, or an offensive one in Sorcerer. Sorcerer buffs her Normal Attacks to work well with Hagoromo Like Sky and giving her Healer / Enhancer is self explanatory. I just don't see Iku needing either Hexer or Toxicologist. Her DEF debuff is already top notch, and while Hexer can give her access to other debuffs, I'd rather have someone more suited to debuffing.
That is not to say Hexer isn't bad on her, its just not good not the subclass I would most recommend. As for Toxicologist... well lets just say I don't respect the Toxicologist subclass much if at all. I don't know how good a 3k power PAR is since its been so long since I've played. The HVY spell seems strong at 10k power but other than that, Toxicologist doesn't seem all that enticing. The DTH spell is pretty minor and the PSN one is even more so. Yuyuko does DTH way better at higher proc rates if you were going for DTH'ing random encounters and DTH'ing bosses should pretty much only be done by Yuyuko if its even possible.
As a side note, have we figured out what the different "power levels" of DTH even do?
Healer Reimu is overkill I think as her heal is already plenty strong without the extra power, and I'd rather give her buff a % heal and her party heal a DEF/MND buff on top of their normal effects with Enhancer, rather going extra hard into healing with Healer.
Also, please don't bold every other line. You probably did it to increase readability of the wall of text but instead, it hindered it because bolding every other line made it harder to read the non bolded lines. Just make liberal use of the enter/ return key instead if you wanted to make a wall of text easier to read.
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I think almost all of your suggestions were things people already thought up and already ran themselves. The two interesting ones that popped out to me though were Sorcerer Utsuho and Magician Mystia (Diva Aya is dead by the way, Diva got nerfed pretty darn hard).
I didn't bother to sift through over 9000 messages (yes it's actually over 9000 if do the math).
Edit: I don't actually remember what the specific nerfs were. All I remember was that after reading them, I no longer considered Diva Aya to be a thing. Healer Aya is great though. I personally use Monk to help with delay costs but primarily because TP, SPD, and EVA were the stats I care about most. If my specific party set up didn't have a Healer already, Healer Aya is definitely the subclass I'd go for.
Yeah you're right. Diva is nerfed hard. It says on the Japanese wiki that both of diva;s spells have their delays set to 25% from 75%. Healer looks like the next best thing for Aya since she has pretty good attack.
I would have thought to run Transcendent on Utsuho to help with her Fighting Spirit stacks and Overheating stacks. Helps with her survival since her defensive stats aren't actually that bad.
Yeah, I guess I should run transcendent on high-magic and high-attack characters that already have passive buffs.
Also, please don't bold every other line. You probably did it to increase readability of the wall of text but instead, it hindered it because bolding every other line made it harder to read the non bolded lines. Just make liberal use of the enter/ return key instead if you wanted to make a wall of text easier to read.
I didn't want the mods to think I was flooding but that doesn't seem like a problem now. Thx.
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Speaking specifically about Iku and Tenshi, for Iku I also feel that Hexer was pretty useless because it wasn't very common that I had Iku set up without 100+ DBF resistance and didn't have a character buffing DEF/MND on the frontline. And even when that is the case, there are better subclasses. For support, Strategist and Herbalist are a higher priority, and for offense, Sorcerer, Transcendent, and Murakumo's Blessing (for when you can afford to use Three Swords of Divine Era, whether for Iku's personal spells or for Start of Heavenly Demise) are all higher priority (Archmage is good if you need to strike a CLD/DRK weakness, although its spells are more suited for wiping out random encounters and it fares poorly compared to other CLD/DRK attacks in the game). I'm presently using Monk Iku while extremely overleveled (low 400s, Infinite Corridor 1f is about 170-230 or something like that) for Infinite Corridor grinding so she can one-shot most enemies, but when she's normally leveled with the enemy, I don't feel that it does enough damage to wipe out random encounters reliably. Her damage dealing capabilities rely on ignoring defenses, so she doesn't fare that well against high HP, low defense type enemies, or even average HP enemies.
For Tenshi, I mostly used her as an attacker since I'm running the Hisouten pair, but her offense is pretty bad when used without Iku. Without Iku, I don't feel she has much value outside of her ability to remove buffs (she's not that tanky outside of PHY attacks and lacks anything else useful to do besides debuff with the Plus Disk changes to her NTR spell cards), but if you wanted to use her, Strategist and Herbalist are pretty much the support subclasses for a stay-in character like a tank. Post-Awakening, I guess even without Iku she can deal effective damage, but I think it would be a bad idea to intentionally use her offensively without Iku, 40% more ATK is enormous.
Speaking more generally about the subclasses themselves than what to use for each character,
-Subclasses with offensively-minded damaging spell cards (I.E. not Guardian/Hexer/Toxicologist) are generally good for bosses that are weak to those elements, since striking an enemy's weakness is one of the best ways you can increase your damage. A 60 affinity weakness is pretty common for bosses, this is a 66% increase in damage. Pretty much all of them are viable to some extent when striking weakness, some notable ones would include Explosive Flame Sword from Warrior, Iron Mountain Charge from Monk, and both of Murakumo's Blessing's spells.
-For boosting personal spell card damage, Warrior, Sorcerer, Transcendent, Gambler, and Murakumo's Blessing are the main ones to go for. Transcendent is generally the best if you have a character that's buffing your attacker, having a straightforward reliable 10% damage boosting skill and getting another 10% or so from the bonuses to ATK/MAG it gives. If you have no buffer boosting your attacker's offenses, then Warrior and Sorcerer are generally better, since they can buff themselves. This is less prominent if you can't maintain 100% HP though. Gambler is great if you aren't going to get that character hit anyway. Murakumo's Blessing is extremely strong if you can afford the MP drain on all of the characters. Calculating how much damage you can do and determining how many attacks you need to defeat a given boss helps a lot with the usability of the latter two subclasses.
-For supporting characters, Herbalist, Strategist, and to a lesser extent Elementalist are good for boosting your attacker's damage. Having a Strategist at the front at all times is generally a good idea, putting that on a character that you want to be at the front the whole fight is usually the best way to use it. Herbalist is mostly useful for the 36% Boost it gives from Herb of Awakening, but this is incompatible with several characters, like Akyuu (both as a support post-Awakening and an attacker with Super Incantation) and Grand Incantation users. Placebo Effect is the best buffing spell in the game provided the character is already at about 60% in all stats. The low 7000 delay is key to its usefulness, since most buffs tend to lean toward 5000 delay. Elementalist only needs to have one of its buffs used every several turns, so it's unimportant to keep one in the frontline, but having one to switch in once or twice in a boss fight is good. 10% more damage over the course of several attacks is not to be overlooked.
-For more miscellaneous uses, Enhancer is good for MT buffers by making them MT healers at the same time, keeping your party reasonably healthy and mitigating the need for dedicated healing. Healer works well on Eirin, but also characters with Instant Attack too, for instantaneous single target healing when you need it. Instant Attack characters in general have good compatibility with niche tools that you don't need to regularly use, but don't want to waste time getting them out when they're needed, like Elementalist and Magician. Guardian's Shield Bash and Toxicologist's Numbing Incense are good sources for their respective status, but otherwise subclass spells aren't particularly effective for doling status/debuffs. Magician becomes less useful later in the game when you have a large pool of MP on everyone, not really sure how it does at that point tbh.
-No comment on any unmentioned subclasses because they're either not good or I've found no opportunity to use them to gauge their effectiveness.
EDIT: Oh I forgot to say (although it's rather obvious), Warrior/Sorcerer is really good for characters with Row attacking spell cards as well, and exceeds Transcendent by a solid margin for sheer damage output for that type of attack.
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Hm, I think I've stumbled on a Plus Disk bug but I have no idea how it happened.
I just went down the stairs to B1F from 1F and... the entire entrance area, up to the Relay Point, is already mapped out like I stepped there. It might have to do with a previous savefile? But I have no idea.
http://puu.sh/x9zhC/7e06a390f6.jpg
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Hm, I think I've stumbled on a Plus Disk bug but I have no idea how it happened.
I just went down the stairs to B1F from 1F and... the entire entrance area, up to the Relay Point, is already mapped out like I stepped there. It might have to do with a previous savefile? But I have no idea.
http://puu.sh/x9zhC/7e06a390f6.jpg
When you start a New Game, in the Plus Disk, it also imports your explored map - i.e. whatever you explored in the previous game is already visible in the new one. Pretty handy if you ask me.
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When you start a New Game, in the Plus Disk, it also imports your explored map - i.e. whatever you explored in the previous game is already visible in the new one. Pretty handy if you ask me.
That's... a pretty weird decision. If it was optional or something that'd make sense, but...
Is it *just* Plus Disk content that shows up as explored? A small test of starting a NG+ run on the same game has 1F completely unmapped.
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That's... a pretty weird decision. If it was optional or something that'd make sense, but...
Is it *just* Plus Disk content that shows up as explored? A small test of starting a NG+ run on the same game has 1F completely unmapped.
All content you explored in the previous game is unmapped - except for a couple areas behind rocks which, fsr, keep getting unexplored everytime you go back.
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New to this game and this style of game in general (have played all Etrian Odyssey games, but they really can't compare), and I'm kinda lost with all the customization, because I'm not sure where to start with it.
Should I be using all of my money in the Library? Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point? Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.
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Should I be using all of my money in the Library?
Your money will mostly go into the Library, you can also use it to buy/craft items from Nitori but you'll almost always find better stuff just exploring (until postgame where you can craft some unique stuff) so it's not worth it; you do sometimes need to buy some things to recruit certain characters but grinding money for those isn't too hard.
Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point?
Most of the time there's no reason to increase those, particularly because you'll generally not have enough money (unles you grind) to do so, so it's better just to increase the stats the characters actually make use of (until plus disc anyway where some abilities allow tanks to do decent damage and frail characters to become sturdy enough to take some hits).
Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.
It increases the ATK/MAG multiplier by 5% per level. As an example Marisa's Magic Missile has the formula [192% MAG - 60% T.MND] at level 1, at level 2 it'd become [197% MAG - 60% T.MND] at 3 [202% MAG - 60% T.MND] and so on, this also applies to healing spells; buffs/debuffs/ailments inflicted also get stronger depending on level. Edit: actually what Lonely says.
It's generally not worth it to increase these until postgame where you'll have the spare points to do so since each level gives a relativelly small increase in damage compared to most passives; this doesn't apply to auxiliary spells and certain spells that infict strong debuffs/ailments, the higher buffs/debuffs/ailments sometimes make them worth investing in.
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Just for clarification, crafting doesn't cost money, and leveling up spell cards increases the spell card's multiplier by 1.05x per level as opposed to increasing the ATK/MAG multiplier by +5% (I.E. level 2 Magic Missile is 201% MAG - 63% T.MND). I think the latter is a little more complicated to grasp with such a simple explanation, so I'll cite the spell card extractor using Magic Missile for example.
Magic Missile
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MP : (party[party.06EC].0024.047C + 2)
Target : Single Foe
Element(s): MYS
Delay : 58.00%
Formula : 160% MAG - 50% MND
Multiplier: 1.20
If level is greater than or equal to 2
Set multiplier to ((((multiplier * 50) / 1000) * (level - 1)) + multiplier)
Apply passive bonuses.
Normally, it goes (Formula) * Multiplier. For Magic Missile, at level 1, the damage will be calculated as (160% MAG - 50% T.MND) * 1.2, which is equivalent to 197% MAG - 60% T.MND. The spell card formulas provided on the EN wiki apply the base multiplier already. When you level up a spell card to 5, the multiplier becomes ((((1.2 * 50) / 1000) * (5 - 1)) + 1.2) = 1.44. Since we're not computers, an easy to understand way to apply it is to increase the spell card multiplier by 5% (1.05x) per level. Level 5 is a 20% increase, so 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.44.
So level 5 Magic Missile is a 230% MAG - 72% T.MND attack.
Basically, it does 20% more damage, simple as that. Level 7 spell cards are 30% more damage when maxed, level 9 spell cards are 40%. Since they're all multipliers, it doesn't matter whether you use the original formula or the one that the EN wiki shows that's already accounting for the base multiplier, slapping a 1.2x increase to either one will get you the correct result.
Satori's copied spell cards, which are level 0, work the same way, only reducing the multiplier by 5% (0.95x). For Satori, her Magic Missile would have a 1.14x multiplier (1.2 * 0.95 = 1.14), which would provide a formula of 182.4% MAG - 57% T.MND.
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For whatever reason I was always under the impression that crafting costed money :V; actually didn't know about the spellcard thing, in the wiki it said it increases healing/damage by 5% so I always assumed it simply meant that it increased the multiplier by that amount.
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The increase by level is in the simplest way possible, the end result will just go up by 5% effectively. So you'll do 105 damage instead of 100, 120 instead of 100, etc. Spellcards are the lowest priority for spending your skillpoints on as a result (although 20% damage increase isn't trivial, once you have a lot of skillpoints), unless it has an important buff/debuff/status effect that powers up with leveling. If your Sanae is mostly casting miracle fruits then you totally want to max it out for them bigger buffs!
Since library stats cost more to increase the more you level them, even less important stats can still receive a smaller amount of investment. When you're farther in and getting stats up to like lv100, you can get lesser stats to like 60 for quite little cost, for example. And on characters like Marisa, well, her MND actually is pretty nice, so she can take a decent magic hit... but you wouldn't invest too much defensively because she'll die to any physicals.
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I didn't bother to sift through over 9000 messages (yes it's actually over 9000 if do the math).
That wasn't the point. It was a poor attempt at conveying that most of what you suggested were "common sense" if you will.
Yeah, I guess I should run transcendent on high-magic and high-attack characters that already have passive buffs.
Yes, when two of her most powerful skills want her to be a stay in bulky fighter, it SURE is nice being to boost her not bad defensive stats as well as her attack stats. You can build her however you want, but Transcendent on Utsuho is really strong.
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About the defensive stat thing... I don't think it is a good idea to leave them fully uninvested just because your char is on the frail side. This is not THL1 - between stat gems, kinship bonuses, and stat tomes, the distance between frail chars and bulky chars is much lower in THL2 than what used to be in THL1. Whereas in THL1 chars like Marisa, Suwako, or Kaguya simply didn't have much use for their defense (except maybe until lvl 500 or so), in THL2 it's not rare for such chars to be able to survive a blow. And while THL1's library costs were such that raising low stats actually costed MORE than raising high stats (for ex, raising Youmu's Mind, say, to library lvl 100 costs almost double what you'd pay to raise its Attack or HP to lvl 100, too), in THL2 the library cost for each stat on the same char is the same. You won't see much of a difference at lower levels (when you'll still lack such gems/kinships etc.), but even before postgame, you should consider investing equally in all stats.
In general, THL2 chars are overall significantly bulkier than their THL1 counterparts, and the whole game mechanics (including stuff like constant buffs and much lower delays on attacks, compared to THL1) encourages a "stay-and-fight" strategy as opposed to THL1's "hit-and-switch" one - of course, unless you use long-delay nukes like Nitori with dedicated switchers like Keine.
EDIT: Anyway, @Kholdi, do not be too worried about getting things wrong. First of all, there are many less ways to actually get things wrong in THL2 (where a lot of stuff just works), compared to THL1 (where there are a few good options which vastly outclass everything else). Second, skill points and lvl stat bonuses can be reset whenever you feel like, for free. Third, unless you buy those exp increasing skills, characters not in your party get the same amount of exp of those in your party, so you can replace a char later on and it won't be at an xp disadvantage like in THL1. Finally, even if you commit a mistake with library points, you can still reset them (with a refund) using Tomes of Reincarnation. They're in a limited quantity until postgame, but you still get quite a few - around 17-18 excluding Plus Disk, if I recall correctly. That should be more than enough for all your resetting needs.
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New to this game and this style of game in general (have played all Etrian Odyssey games, but they really can't compare), and I'm kinda lost with all the customization, because I'm not sure where to start with it.
Should I be using all of my money in the Library? Is there any reason to increase lesser used stats (like defensive stats on Marisa, for example) at any point? Also, is it worth putting skill points into offensive skills? I can't find any data on what that actually affects.
Early on you should just spend a couple levels on everyone so you can fulfill the requirement for Patchouli's sidequest/recruitment, then save them for Sakes in Nitori's Shop because you'll need them to recruit Suika. Other than that, they all go in the library yeah.
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Finally done with farming stat gems in Infinite Corridor, took somewhere around 55-60 hours. Totally lost track of my playtime before I started. So far I've seen 90 different enemies in the Infinite Corridor, not sure if that's the full number or if more enemies will show up on later floors (still on 1f). Most (1/3rd or more) are weak to FIR, SPI, and PHY (SPI is most common), while MYS and DRK have less than 20 of those 90 enemies weak to it. I'm thinking of making a spreadsheet or something (any kind of info dump that people can readily access) containing enemy HP (using Akyuu for this), weaknesses, and maybe some comments on notable enemies, if that's something that people might find useful. Wanna get to 100f before I do that though, to make sure I've seen all the enemies and to get actually useful stats. All of them are at level 1 in Keine's database, which provides insight on their HP relative to each other, but not how much HP they'll have when you fight them.
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I am completely at a loss as to what to do to proceed in the plus disk portion of the game. Currently, I am at floor 25 and BF7, stonewalled by both blockades, I have cleared Grandragon and In Laquetti (Even though I'm like 50 levels before par for him, it was a nightmare but I had no idea what else to do.) I have 36 dark pieces and I am positive every floor I have access to is fully mapped. I also have 55 characters which I think is everyone aside for the character who joins on F26. Does anyone know what the requirements for the rocks on F25 and BF7 roughly translate to so I have a better idea of what I'm supposed to do?
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Have you defeated
Yamata no Orochi's five elemental heads
? The requirement for clearing each of the rocks is to defeat one of them. You can access one of them without clearing any of 25f's rocks, the only block is the colored switches. Once you've defeated one, it will allow you to clear a rock that blocks the path to the next one, which repeats until you've defeated all of them. The path to access each of them involves traveling through a part of 26f and then traveling back to 25f. Once you've defeated them all, you can clear the rock at the beginning of 25f and reach the 26f stairs that will take you to the path of the last boss. The last character to recruit is acquired after defeating the last boss and going to save.
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Random note from TL1... I was about to lose faith in there being one, but apparently there is a cap on the exp required to level up for each character - it varies from char to char but it happens at around lvl 2900 for each of them (For Reimu it's 90 million XP, for Minoriko it's 85 million, so I think it's prolly equal to base XP * 1 million). It should make grinding for the remaining 60 or so WINNER fights required to hit 255 slightly easier.
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How much bonus damage does Warrior's/ Sorcerer's Enhanced Normal Attack give?
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30% (1.3x). It's mentioned in the Passive Skill Info dump on the first page, you might be able to find some other useful things there too if you haven't checked it already. The damage multiplier is applied at the end, so it makes it go from 100% ATK - 50% T.DEF to 130% ATK - 65% T.DEF (or MAG and T.MND for magic), as opposed to being 130% - 50%.
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Do you mean this?
textuploader.com/6s2t
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Yeah, that thing.
Enhanced Normal Attack
The ATK or MAG stat of the user will be increased by 30% for the sake of the
damage calculation (depending on which stat is used by the attack).
It doesn't pierce defense any better (so if you were hitting 0, you'd still hit 0 with it), but it does 30% more damage at the end, like most other damage multipliers. 100 becomes 130, 200 becomes 260, etc.
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Have you defeated Yamata no Orochi's five elemental heads
? The requirement for clearing each of the rocks is to defeat one of them. You can access one of them without clearing any of 25f's rocks, the only block is the colored switches. Once you've defeated one, it will allow you to clear a rock that blocks the path to the next one, which repeats until you've defeated all of them. The path to access each of them involves traveling through a part of 26f and then traveling back to 25f. Once you've defeated them all, you can clear the rock at the beginning of 25f and reach the 26f stairs that will take you to the path of the last boss. The last character to recruit is acquired after defeating the last boss and going to save.
Not only did this help, but I found out the unrelated problem I was having with BF7. If I swapped back to the non-translated game the rock worked just fine, which gave me enough time to hit the waypoint and go back, I think I remember having a problem with that in the vanilla game when I first played a long time ago. Thank you!
Now I just need to find a good way to level up, the BF8 area doesn't seem to like my Appraiser Yuyuko's instant death spam for extra exp. :ohdear:
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On my current run of Plus Disk (My third overall), I used my first Awakening item on Komachi and I'm very impressed with how good Avici is coming from her now. She only has 7.4 MAG growth (She only has MAG boost, no gems or anything yet) and does about 66% of my MAG Satori's copied Avici damage. For a bit more specifics my Komachi has 75k ATK/21k MAG and Satori has 77k MAG.
I also took some time to test out Youmu's Awakening and it's very strong, even without enough points for the Yuyuko synergy or to even max out a spellcard. It's pretty difficult to get her to get killed from an attack with the items I have on her right now (And it'd be extremely difficult to use her in randoms at all if she was super squishy), but the damage she puts out at 1HP without having to concentrate over and over is staggering. It proves for quite the nice synergy with Yukari's Spiriting Away, though it's definitely very tricky to line it up properly.
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That sounds pretty promising for Youmu, how much damage are you outputting with her exactly? It seems like it'd be easy to take advantage of for the later Infinite Corridor bosses, since they tend to have ridiculous damage output and would surely drop Youmu to 1 HP.
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Reporting on my current progress, I'm on Infinite Corridor 100f, trying to figure out how to withstand Serpent of Chaos' "Disintegrating Breath" without losing any characters (I also need to level grind a bit, Iku 515 presently, planning on Iku 540 for the proper fight). I decided to skip the really strong equipment like Regalia and Medicine of Life up until now (besides the guaranteed Scourge/Long Sword "Ringil" from the 30/60f bosses), but offensively speaking, the game feels somewhat broken when optimizing damage output. Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIF9O-8pdLo (skip to 1:28). Almost a one-shot on Abyss Kogasa (she has 29m HP), and that's with a setup for status immunity (with a full offensive setup Tenshi can easily one-shot Abyss Kogasa). That's the most extreme example, but the bosses have generally gone down fairly quickly, even the enhanced final boss.
I've been messing around a lot with Akyuu, she's probably one of my favorite characters post-Awakening. Her resurrection skill, combined with how frail Plus Disk bosses are, is reliable enough that going max SPD for level ups is pretty usable, and she can still usually withstand at least one attack with a bulky equipment setup. Her Awakening spell card has 6000 delay and not 4000 like the EN wiki says (it's also 10 MP and not 11 MP, that's pretty minor though) and is also apparently bugged to apply a 1-hit invincibility effect to the leftmost slot of the frontline. The 50% Boost is enormous, especially when using two attackers. She doesn't have much else useful to do besides switch when Murakumo's Blessing is in use by Iku or Tenshi, but when it's not, she has more than enough MP to spare to repeatedly use World Shaking Military Rule (with the MP drain skill and Phenomenal Force of Will, she restores 7 MP per turn, presently she has 86 MP at level 524 with max MP Orbs/Gems and MP Boost), so I have her alternate between her Awakening spell card and WSMR.
I've also confirmed that Akyuu and Satori stack with their weakness damage boosting skills. The requirement to qualify as a weakness is an affinity of 80 or lower (red numbers), so for any boss that has an affinity like that, Satori provides more of a damage boost than racial bonuses (24% vs 20%). So far, only Abyss Marisa doesn't have a weakness like that (though a few other bosses have no weaknesses at all). Satori has also demonstrated herself to be fairly tanky and can actually withstand Serpent of Chaos' Disintegrating Breath with a typical tank setup (max HP in levels, First Aid Kit, 3x Long Sword "Gurenjihime", level 480, 525 library level) and no defensive buffs on her or offensive debuffs on SoC (she has about 530K HP like this and took 500K damage).
Sanae's (and Reimu's by extension) Super Youkai Buster appears to be a 20% damage increase as far as I can tell. This makes for a 40% (or 44% if it's 1.2 * 1.2, I believe this is actually how it works) damage increase against Youkai. This plus Power of the Living God for 30% more SPI damage makes her pretty good for increasing damage. Stacking the two together is an 82-87% damage boost all by herself, with the ability to buff stats with Miracle Fruit. Her MP restoring skill is also really solid, been able to grind almost indefinitely without much thought about MP management once characters start getting down to about half MP.
Best as I can tell, Murakumo's Blessing's skill Three Swords of Divine Era, the one that drains the user's spell card costs from the whole frontline and boosts damage by 16% for each, works as a separate multiplier for each one and doesn't add them together (1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16, in other words), for a 56% damage increase. Damage variance wasn't adding up for 48% when I was testing it, I was getting higher numbers than should've been possible. This was using Start of Heavenly Demise though (Iku with a -50% MND target so MND was a non-factor), which doesn't have a 100% confirmed spell card formula, so that might be the source of the discrepancy. It's a pretty ridiculous subclass either way, the damage output is enormous, and Start of Heavenly Demise is one of the strongest SPI attacks in the game.
For Tenshi and Iku...Tenshi's Awakening hasn't been as strong as I thought it would be, as Courageous Sword isn't worth specifically buffing her DEF/MND and bosses go down too quickly for Keystones of Spirit to accumulate to high numbers (usually, anyway). The higher HP from Seven Celestial Peaches is appreciated though. The biggest advantage she has is the variety of subclass spells available that scale off of ATK. In particular, Explosive Flame Sword, Puncturing Thrust, and Assassination Sword are all very strong subclass spells (Puncturing Thrust moreso due to its low delay for its damage than big numbers per hit), though of course personal spell cards are way stronger. The basic attack backed by Warrior seems to be superior to Shield Bash in terms of damage output (accounting for delay), while Samidare Slash is...kinda mediocre for a dedicated CLD spell card (and is stuck with an ACC penalty to boot). I haven't been able to afford enough SP to spare for Magic Counter+ on Iku to really try it out, but the damage boost from Orb of the Five Clawed Dragon is rather good. Accounting for leveling rates, Iku has one of the best MAG stats in the game post-Awakening (pretty much everyone with a better MAG stat levels a lot slower than her). Start of Heavenly Demise is superior in terms of damage to Iku's personal spell cards and allows her to deal SPI damage that competes with Tenshi's. Iku's Sorcerer backed basic attack is also capable of dealing out a large amount of damage with minimal delay, and only applying 10% of the enemy's MND in the formula makes it very reliable. Unfortunately, her MAG subclass spell options are rather poor outside of Start of Heavenly Demise, as Iku's WND/MYS options are better than Sorcerer's spell cards, Archmage's Southern Cross and Execution are too weak for their MP costs, and the rest are utility spells that don't do very good damage. This leaves Tenshi as the only attacker between the two for an enemy not weak to WND/MYS/SPI, and CLD/PHY seem lacking. Gotta try them out, but I'm thinking I might use a different character for those elements (Sanae for CLD and Momiji for PHY maybe).
Think about's about everything to mention so far. Probably gonna stop after Serpent of Chaos and wait for the next update.
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That sounds pretty promising for Youmu, how much damage are you outputting with her exactly? It seems like it'd be easy to take advantage of for the later Infinite Corridor bosses, since they tend to have ridiculous damage output and would surely drop Youmu to 1 HP.
I don't have any bosses to test it against as of yet unfortunately (The earliest I can foresee being able to test it on a boss that's a good choice for it is Shadow Satori and Koishi, but that's quite a bit away, I'm on the 23F/24F section right now), but the non-weakness hitting damage against various random encounters is quite good and I can't see the damage on bosses being much worse. With 130k ATK before +96%ish ATK buff, Level 1 God's Slash of Karma Wind, and her corridor skills maxed out (The Yuyuko synergy is only at rank 1 actually so it's 5% ATK boost there), as well as being at 1HP and having Desperation and a Strategist out for 10% more damage, she hits around 2m damage. Considering that that's Level 1 GSoKW, and she didn't have an Herbalist boost, wasn't hitting weakness and had no other possible boosts, *and* it can be used several attacks in a row, I think that's pretty great. Also, as a side note, even at full HP Youmu gets a 10% buff from Asura's Wrath (Whatever the skill name is).
As I was testing this, she got killed through Swordmaster's Spirit three times. That's pretty unlucky.
I know my explanation of stuff is bad so I apologize in advance for it.
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Asura's Blood is a free 10% damage buff? That's pretty cool actually, so you can still use it even with a bulky attacker setup. It sounds like it scales quite nicely then, guessing 50% HP is a 60% damage buff and etc. Based on the description of Swordmaster's Spirit, Youmu will keep it unless she either attacks with full HP or takes fatal damage. Is that how it works? If so, that seems fairly reliable, you can just keep attacking with her below max HP and she'll survive whatever hits her. Well, 99% of the time, anyway.
So with 130K ATK, a +96% (Meikyo Shisui?) ATK buff, 5% more ATK with team Hakugyoukurou, and 25% more ATK with Desperation, that's 334K ATK I believe (or maybe it's additive and it's actually 293K ATK), with Asura's Blood and Strategist buff providing a multiplier of 2.1 * 1.1 for a 131% damage increase for 2m damage. With God's Slash of Karma Wind maxed out, that's a 40% damage increase, and Herb of Awakening would be 36%, so those two things would boost the 2m damage to 3.8m, almost doubling it. Youmu can do 20% more damage to Ghosts (4.5m), then there's weakness, Divine Falchion, and potential other damage boosters from other party members. That's some pretty good damage potential for that level. For bosses, you can probably use Murakumo's Blessing and the MP restoring drain skill to allow Youmu to spam her spell cards without worrying about MP costs much. That seems like a pretty strong setup provided you can allow her to survive.
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If so, that seems fairly reliable, you can just keep attacking with her below max HP and she'll survive whatever hits her. Well, 99% of the time, anyway.
For bosses, you can probably use Murakumo's Blessing and the MP restoring drain skill to allow Youmu to spam her spell cards without worrying about MP costs much. That seems like a pretty strong setup provided you can allow her to survive.
It definitely never came up in my brain to not exclusively utilize Youmu at 1HP and rather to just use the endure as insurance while she goes to town with pretty decent buffs. It seems like that'd work out pretty nicely actually. I also never thought about Murakumo for the MP gain, that's also very good. It'll be a while before I can utilize all this, though -- I'm only level 244 right now exploring B7F. I wonder if I should learn Regeneration or not. Probably not.
Thank you very much.
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It definitely never came up in my brain to not exclusively utilize Youmu at 1HP and rather to just use the endure as insurance while she goes to town with pretty decent buffs. It seems like that'd work out pretty nicely actually. I also never thought about Murakumo for the MP gain, that's also very good. It'll be a while before I can utilize all this, though -- I'm only level 244 right now exploring B7F. I wonder if I should learn Regeneration or not. Probably not.
Thank you very much.
Maybe you could also use Akyuu to give Youmu temporary invicibility at low HP, so that she can basically permanently keep the damage boost as long as Akyuu can keep refreshing the invincibility buff. On the other hand, for a more durable build, Renko can be used to make sure Youmu is never at full HP; Ame no Murakumo's Blessing actually sounds like a pretty good subclass for Youmu since it gives her a very good offensive spellcard in Ame no Murakumo Slash which costs exactly as much as she will drain with Ninigi's Taitou to permanently keep the Meikyo Shisui buff, you could also partner her up with Sanae, both to neuter the MP drain and to increase her SPI damage even more.
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Maybe you could also use Akyuu to give Youmu temporary invicibility at low HP, so that she can basically permanently keep the damage boost as long as Akyuu can keep refreshing the invincibility buff. On the other hand, for a more durable build, Renko can be used to make sure Youmu is never at full HP; Ame no Murakumo's Blessing actually sounds like a pretty good subclass for Youmu since it gives her a very good offensive spellcard in Ame no Murakumo Slash which costs exactly as much as she will drain with Ninigi's Taitou to permanently keep the Meikyo Shisui buff, you could also partner her up with Sanae, both to neuter the MP drain and to increase her SPI damage even more.
Unfortunately I have a fixed party for this run, it wasn't really set up specifically to make the absolute most of Youmu. http://puu.sh/xpvs9/f397183bd0.jpg
I did use Sanae until I got Koishi though.
I'll definitely keep Akyuu in mind if I ever want to min-max Youmu -- I was already very interested in using Akyuu in a run someday, it's just that tank/support characters are so hard to pick between and using them in some situations is very hard to get used to.
Ame-no-Murakumo's Blessing is definitely going to be my Youmu's subclass when I get it, now -- it fixes a lot of her issues and the SPI attack, while it isn't necessary in my team, is nice to have. It might be good enough to use over God's Slash of Karma Wind on enemies she can't hit weakness on, but I'll have to find that out. The only other character on my team that can *really* take advantage of the subclass is Koishi, I think, to get out an extremely high amount of Start of Heavenly Demises.
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Murakumo Slash is really strong, about 5.5% weaker than Sword of Hisou is (but with 6000 delay instead of 5400). This is just an estimate based on the spell card formula, but I think level 9 God's Slash of Karma Wind should do about 10% more damage than Murakumo Slash (level 9 GSoKW is a 322% ATK - 126% T.DEF formula, level 5 Murakumo Slash is 285% ATK - 102% T.DEF, roughly 11% more damage). With Youmu at 1 HP you could probably get better damage with it than you could using Start of Heavenly Demise with Koishi. Should be able to get some impressive results out of it.
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Meikyo Shisui does not work with Ninigi's Taitou unfortunately. I'm assuming the MP regeneration check comes after the Meikyo Shisui check. The MP regen is still incredibly good for Youmu though, it's just unfortunate that she can't stay high-buffed spamming Murakumo Slash.
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Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering about that myself too. So Youmu needs max MP at the start of the turn to benefit from Meikyo Shisui. Guess she could use the buff draining skill to boost herself, but I don't think it's very useful.
In other unrelated news, I think I figured out Serpent of Chaos (or at least, close enough). Seems to have 800K ATK/MAG, and Disintegrating Breath looks to be a magic equivalent to Space Compression (66% MAG - 25% T.MND). It has the same delay as Space Compression (3500) and the damage seems to add up. In order to survive it, about 50K HP is necessary, but Strategist and Transcendent reduce it by 10% each, invaluable considering how difficult it is to reduce VOI damage. Serpent of Chaos seems to have low debuff resistance too, so debuffing its MAG can help lower the survival threshold. It seems to also have guaranteed Great Catastrophe, Spirit Decomposition, and Great Ruin uses (best as I can tell, these are 70%, 60%, and 50% of its HP), and uses Time-Space Warp > Disintegrating Breath again at about 40%.
If you can survive its first Disintegrating Breath and keep the damage up on it, its next three actions are always Great Catastrophe, Spirit Decomposition, and Great Ruin, so if you can get around those (mostly Great Catastrophe) and deplete its HP before it can take a fourth action, then it's a fairly easy win. This appears to be the most reliable strategy to use against it, as far as I can tell anyway.
Ah, I think I got the "Great" attacks backwards. The MP to 0 attack is used first, HP to 1 after.
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I apologize if this has been asked many times before, but is there any way to obtain skill reset items, for Magic Library? At least in the Plus Disk? Thanks in advance.
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Tomes of Reincarnation? As long as you don't use them willy-nilly you get a pretty good amount of them in the main game, but they ARE purchasable in the Plus Disk using currency from the infinite corridor.
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To be clear, you don't need Tomes of Reincarnation to reset skills, they're used to refund stat gems and skill/stat books and magic library stat increase. When you go to reset a character, it first asks if you are sure, then it asks if you want to use a tome. Selecting no to the second question will still reset their skills but won't refund magic library stats or stat gems or skill/stat books.
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I'm having trouble trying to find the value for the encounter rate in LoT2. I did it all the time in 1 and it was fairly easy, but for some reason it seems to be avoiding me in 2. Can anyone help?
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Hello there LoT forum, been playing LoT2 again just to finish up the base game and continue on to the Plus Disk. But I encountered a problem here?
Is 9F Extra map really incomplete or what? because I saw an item event there, and I'm curious.
(https://image.prntscr.com/image/eF2-XwaRR8S8DIWlWoURWg.png)
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Yeah, there's really no way to access that part of the map. Probably he didn't playtest it and didn't notice, oops, there's no way to get to that park, and then never bothered patching a fix.
Someone edited the files to get the item and it was something really eh (not that I remember quite what), so don't worry, you're not missing out. At best it might have been a generic stat gem.
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Someone edited the files to get the item and it was something really eh (not that I remember quite what), so don't worry, you're not missing out. At best it might have been a generic stat gem.
IIRC it's a War Mask of the Butcher.
So this isn't just a super short post for something minor, I've actually had to start grinding at the end of 26F for various equipment and probably money since the 26F boss is actually destroying me this time around. Even on my first playthrough I still didn't have a hard time with the fight.
Additionally, Youmu's been extremely impressive now that I've gotten the points for more things, and she's pretty bulky and very strong now that she has a Scourge too. Koishi's damage is still very low since you have to give her EVA equipment but I think running an EVA main equip would fix that. It's just so tempting using the Avoid Ring, though, even if it's only 5% buff/debuff. I also think her damage will get a lot better once she gets access to her Awakening stuff and *good* items with Evasion. ...Which is actually just one page 12 item she'd use, I think.
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Apperantly Rinnosuke's Precise Diagnosis removes all enemy debuffs. ...Sometimes. I'm not sure what's causing it, I just know that I've used it and enemies have had their debuff icons and debuffs be completely removed.
As another sidenote, my next battle is against Shadow Satori and Koishi, so hopefully I can get Youmu set up nicely for that fight and record it.
EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq-ni6R7A18 The fight was a little RNG heavy to utilize Youmu properly since it's a little tricky to do this with multiple enemies, but I still managed to get off Youmu's full burst, just without an Herbalist boost since I don't have one anymore and without Satori's benefits either. After Satori goes down I recommend skipping the rest since I forgot to equip accuracy equipment to deal with Koishi, so it's about 7 minutes of dealing with her. At about 10:00 I show off Youmu's equips and stuff.
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Hello there LoT forum, been playing LoT2 again just to finish up the base game and continue on to the Plus Disk. But I encountered a problem here?
Is 9F Extra map really incomplete or what? because I saw an item event there, and I'm curious.
(https://image.prntscr.com/image/eF2-XwaRR8S8DIWlWoURWg.png)
Ya some guy got it before, it wasn't anything worthwhile
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Apperantly Rinnosuke's Precise Diagnosis removes all enemy debuffs. ...Sometimes. I'm not sure what's causing it, I just know that I've used it and enemies have had their debuff icons and debuffs be completely removed.
Checking the JP wiki, there isn't any report of it affecting enemies, but it does mention that it has a 50% success rate for curing the party's status and debuffs. Sounds like this might affect enemies as well.
Now that I look at the JP wiki's bug findings though...
Checked in-game with 4 Appraisers in the frontline, Appraiser does not stack with other Appraisers.
Appraiser does stack, but the displayed EXP/money/item modifiers do not account for more than one Appraiser. That's good to know!
EDIT: Wow, even with +100 accuracy on Koishi's Super-Ego, it missed about half the time on Shadow Koishi. I'm glad I had Tenshi around for Sword of Hisou, yeesh. If my understanding of the evasion formula is correct, Shadow Koishi should have somewhere around 200 evasion then. Even with Accuracy boosting equipment, that would have been a huge pain.
That damage of Youmu's is pretty amazing for that level though, nearly 7m on Slash of Eternity without a lot of possible buffs (36% from Herb of Awakening, Satori's 24% weakness boost, Murakumo subclass' 48% damage boost). That far exceeds what I was getting out of Tenshi at that level, nice.
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Checking the JP wiki, there isn't any report of it affecting enemies, but it does mention that it has a 50% success rate for curing the party's status and debuffs. Sounds like this might affect enemies as well.
EDIT: Wow, even with +100 accuracy on Koishi's Super-Ego, it missed about half the time on Shadow Koishi. I'm glad I had Tenshi around for Sword of Hisou, yeesh. If my understanding of the evasion formula is correct, Shadow Koishi should have somewhere around 200 evasion then. Even with Accuracy boosting equipment, that would have been a huge pain.
That damage of Youmu's is pretty amazing for that level though, nearly 7m on Slash of Eternity without a lot of possible buffs (36% from Herb of Awakening, Satori's 24% weakness boost, Murakumo subclass' 48% damage boost). That far exceeds what I was getting out of Tenshi at that level, nice.
Yeah, the damage is really surprising. The skillpoint costs are definitely brutal though, but she's always been meant to be a lategame character. Also, I definitely underestimated Shadow Koishi -- last time I fought her I had Sakuya and her perfect accuracy Soul Sculpture.
I also realized that a little bit into that video shows the bug with Precise Diagnosis.
EDIT: 1HP Youmu with her level 9 Nature attack, 288k ATK, a 60% ATK buff and Strategist/Satori bonus did 10m damage to Shadow Yukari.
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Apperantly Rinnosuke's Precise Diagnosis removes all enemy debuffs. ...Sometimes. I'm not sure what's causing it, I just know that I've used it and enemies have had their debuff icons and debuffs be completely removed.
Does the bug also remove all status effects from the enemy as well?
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Does the bug also remove all status effects from the enemy as well?
Not in about 50 uses of it while an enemy was PAR'd or TRR'd. It does cure those for allies, though.
EDIT: For a random thing I just found out, Patchouli's Passive Philosopher's Stone can be PHY element from concentrating.
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If anyone wants it, I have a NG+ file with all 56 characters unlocked along with all of their endless corridor awakening items. +50100 from achievements (94, 97, 98, 99, 101, 44, 45, 46, 47, 19 and 17, 21, 22, 23 of plus disk) along with their rewards are included. No maps have been explored but Relays up to 20F depths have been unlocked, unfortunately.
Edit: Not sure how to attach file here...
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So, I've defeated the LoT2 plus disk final boss with some amount of difficulty and luck, as well as the boss that required
36 (?) shadow characters
to get access to, and am now stuck. The rocks on 26F and B7F will not disappear. I've seen videos of later content, so I don't think I've done quite everything. Maybe I need to progress on that random dungeon in order to open those rocks? I've been ignoring it, because I'm kinda scared of wasting floors and not having enough of the currency to buy items.
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Unless I'm misreading it (and I could be), the 26f rock requires you to recruit everyone. The B7f rock requires you to hit a switch in 27f, which becomes accessible after hitting all of the other switches on the floor.
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Strange, I'm missing 3 then, most likely. This should be them: https://i.imgur.com/3gdIOrR.png Possible spoilers btw.
EDIT: Judging from the images in the site on the Characters tab, I seem to be missing Koishi, Tokiko (?), and Kokoro.
How do I recruit them?
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For the first character, you need to collect four items on B1f, B2f (I think), 22f, and 23f, then you can find them on 24f. Second character requires collecting items on B1f, B2f, B3f (I think), and 21f, then you can find them on 22f. Third character is simply triggering events at B1f, B3f, and 21f, then you can get them at 24f.
The items you need to collect are on the 6th page on the fourth item tab. First two rows are for the first character, rows three and four are for the second character.
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I see, thanks. I managed to recruit
Tokiko and Kokoro
. Since Koishi
is event based, I'll have to remember which events I didn't do. I suppose I'll go check them out one by one again... Oh well.
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How do I unlock more Awakened Skills? Most of the characters already have awakened skills unlocked but some of them don?t.
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Presently, it is only possible to unlock Awakening skills on 7 characters, since the game only gives 7 of the item needed for it at the moment. The next update will probably add more, possibly enough to get everyone's Awakening skills.
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Although I wouldn't be too hopeful about "next update". As far as I can tell 3peso had disappeared off the face of the Internet since March.
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To be more specific, the problem I have is that the options for buying awakened skills at Akyuu?s House for some of the plus disk characters are missing. I used cheat engine to give myself 99 of whatever currency Akyuu accepts (although that?s more than enough).
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That's peculiar, they should all be available in the shop from the start. There is no need or way to unlock any of them. Which ones are you missing?
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That's peculiar, they should all be available in the shop from the start. There is no need or way to unlock any of them. Which ones are you missing?
They aren't all in the shop from the start. Any character you do not have (Which is exclusively the 5 (Actually 6 since Shou is *technically* optional for most of the game from my memory, but most people'll get her easily I miscounted the Shadow Fragments, Shou *is* required.) characters of Plus Disk after B4F since you need 48 characters to pass the B2F rock) will not have theirs show up until you've actually gotten them in your party through events. If you use a NG+ file with all 56 characters, I'm assuming the game isn't properly programmed for that possibility yet, and the items won't show up until you complete the respective character events and get them in the party. Unless of course, it was just a normal run in which case I have no idea why they could be missing and this was pointless.
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Omfg, I am such an idiot. I just realized that I already unlocked all of the characters awakened skills. I didn?t notice before because I hacked in a shit ton of skill points and maxed everyone ?s skills out. That must have camouflaged the awakened skills so I couldn?t see them. Sorry for wasting your time, guys. Fuck me -_-
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Although I wouldn't be too hopeful about "next update". As far as I can tell 3peso had disappeared off the face of the Internet since March.
Eh, the same thing happened with the Plus Disk and that got finished eventually so its just a patient waiting game again. I've finally started playing though. Was originally planning to grind out stat gems some more but on a whim, I finally decided to boot up the Plus Disk and dive in. I'm... worried as my original run doesn't have Reisen or Hina in it (not that I know who I'd cut for them). Was already "hard" to cut Marisa for Yuuka and gut the MAlice cannon but I figured Yuuka gets Master Spark later on if I ever needed big Mystic nukes. But the lack of a general debuffer might hurt me in the future since Eiki and Kaguya aren't as strong against the lower defenses of the Plus Disk bosses. Oh well, Komachi and Byakuren will have to make do for now.
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They aren't all in the shop from the start. Any character you do not have (Which is exclusively the 5 (Actually 6 since Shou is *technically* optional for most of the game from my memory, but most people'll get her easily I miscounted the Shadow Fragments, Shou *is* required.) characters of Plus Disk after B4F since you need 48 characters to pass the B2F rock) will not have theirs show up until you've actually gotten them in your party through events.
Hm, I must be remembering incorrectly then, as I had thought that the Awakening items were indeed all there, regardless of whether you actually had the character or not. But by the time I actually acquired the trade items, I had every character except for Akyuu anyway, and I didn't think to check whether or not her item was there, since there would be no reason to acquire an item I had no use for yet.
Eh, the same thing happened with the Plus Disk and that got finished eventually so its just a patient waiting game again. I've finally started playing though. Was originally planning to grind out stat gems some more but on a whim, I finally decided to boot up the Plus Disk and dive in. I'm... worried as my original run doesn't have Reisen or Hina in it (not that I know who I'd cut for them). Was already "hard" to cut Marisa for Yuuka and gut the MAlice cannon but I figured Yuuka gets Master Spark later on if I ever needed big Mystic nukes. But the lack of a general debuffer might hurt me in the future since Eiki and Kaguya aren't as strong against the lower defenses of the Plus Disk bosses. Oh well, Komachi and Byakuren will have to make do for now.
Yeah, I'm sure that the next (and possibly "final" minus balance revisions) update will roll around within the next few months, maybe around January or February, so it doesn't worry me too much that the guy's been quiet. He might just have a really good work ethic. Or a girlfriend, idk.
Regarding Plus Disk bosses, it's exactly because they have lower defenses that DEF/MND debuffs aren't as valuable against them compared to high defense targets, since the gains are lower. I did some damage calculations with Tenshi (who has Flandre-tier ATK with Girl of Bhava-agra on top of excellent multipliers), a -50% DEF debuff on an above average DEF target amounts to about a 9-15% damage buff (depending on spell card formula), assuming an 86% ATK buff on Tenshi. More specifically, I did the damage tests for a target with Serpent of Chaos' DEF/MND (which is 1m by my tests). IIRC, Abyss Kogasa (the boss preceding SoC) had something like 500K DEF and even less MND (unfortunately, don't remember what her MND was), damage gains from debuffs are even lower on a 500K target (merely 4-6% with a -50% debuff under the same test circumstances). The Touhou character bosses that comprise most of Plus Disk's boss fights generally have this kind of level for their DEF/MND (relative to what you will have at the level you fight them), with very few exceptions (such as Parsee for MND or Tenshi for both stats). Characters with lower ATK/MAG (both on their stats and their spell card multipliers) will benefit more from debuffs since there's less diminishing return on them, but generally, a -50% DEF/MND debuff might net around 10% more damage, not much more than that.
Generally , you're best off ignoring DEF/MND debuffs in favor of buffing your attacker's ATK/MAG and stacking other damage multipliers. This gets the most favorable damage boost you can acquire. Of course, for those bosses with astounding DEF/MND, attacks that ignore DEF/MND entirely might be preferable to debuffs anyway.
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Eh, the same thing happened with the Plus Disk and that got finished eventually so its just a patient waiting game again.
The difference here is that even though Plus Disk was delayed to hell, 3peso had always been on twitter and you know that at least the guy is alive and kicking. His twitter hasn't bee updated at all since March 23rd and as far as I can tell nobody has seen any activity from him at all since then.
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The difference here is that even though Plus Disk was delayed to hell, 3peso had always been on twitter and you know that at least the guy is alive and kicking. His twitter hasn't bee updated at all since March 23rd and as far as I can tell nobody has seen any activity from him at all since then.
Oh jeez. I hope he didn't like... die >.>;
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The difference here is that even though Plus Disk was delayed to hell, 3peso had always been on twitter and you know that at least the guy is alive and kicking. His twitter hasn't bee updated at all since March 23rd and as far as I can tell nobody has seen any activity from him at all since then.
Oh, that does seem a little troubling then. If he had been inactive on twitter while working on Plus Disk, it would be different, but since he wasn't, it sounds like there was something that created a significant change in routine for him. Still would wait a few more months before making any negative assumptions about the game's future, but Japan is a relatively safe place compared to most other countries (particularly the U.S.), so I have doubts that anything fatal happened.
Guess one can always try e-mailing the guy or something.
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Regarding Plus Disk bosses, it's exactly because they have lower defenses that DEF/MND debuffs aren't as valuable against them compared to high defense targets, since the gains are lower. I did some damage calculations with Tenshi (who has Flandre-tier ATK with Girl of Bhava-agra on top of excellent multipliers), a -50% DEF debuff on an above average DEF target amounts to about a 9-15% damage buff (depending on spell card formula), assuming an 86% ATK buff on Tenshi. More specifically, I did the damage tests for a target with Serpent of Chaos' DEF/MND (which is 1m by my tests). IIRC, Abyss Kogasa (the boss preceding SoC) had something like 500K DEF and even less MND (unfortunately, don't remember what her MND was), damage gains from debuffs are even lower on a 500K target (merely 4-6% with a -50% debuff under the same test circumstances). The Touhou character bosses that comprise most of Plus Disk's boss fights generally have this kind of level for their DEF/MND (relative to what you will have at the level you fight them), with very few exceptions (such as Parsee for MND or Tenshi for both stats). Characters with lower ATK/MAG (both on their stats and their spell card multipliers) will benefit more from debuffs since there's less diminishing return on them, but generally, a -50% DEF/MND debuff might net around 10% more damage, not much more than that.
Generally , you're best off ignoring DEF/MND debuffs in favor of buffing your attacker's ATK/MAG and stacking other damage multipliers. This gets the most favorable damage boost you can acquire. Of course, for those bosses with astounding DEF/MND, attacks that ignore DEF/MND entirely might be preferable to debuffs anyway.
I guess I was just getting the wrong impression then? From the posts in the past two threads, I got the impression that DEF/MND ignoring characters were less effective because of the lowered defenses. What they probably meant was that non DEF/MND ignoring characters can shine more, since they tend to have stronger spell card formulas to compensate for the lack of piercing. I guess the name of the game is still "launch strong nuke and switch out" which is slightly disappointing but still fun.
Random thought I just had but I'm kind of hoping that there's a boss where you have to kill the adds in a specific order. Thinking about the Guardian of the Crystals fight triggered this thought.
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Oh, yeah, comparatively speaking, characters that can ignore defense do less damage than characters that don't due to the latter generally having better formulas on their spell cards. It would be more accurate to say that the latter shine more than the former. I figured you were just talking about debuffs though, since Reisen and Hina are the best debuffing characters in the game, and you wouldn't need to debuff a boss' DEF/MND if you were going to ignore it entirely in the first place.
There's still a couple of bosses that have tremendous defenses though, like Grandgon and Permitter of Destruction (60f Infinite Corridor boss), where you definitely want to just ignore their defenses due to them being difficult to reasonably damage otherwise, even with a -50% debuff. For a comparison, with HVY applied to the latter boss, Tenshi with full buffs was doing about 700K (out of 20m HP) with Sword of Hisou, while Iku could do 13m with Start of Heavenly Demise and a -50% MND debuff (which is 100% with Heavenly Maiden's Blow). Normally, Sword of Hisou would be a little bit stronger (about 10%), that's how much of a difference being able to ignore DEF/MND can make in some fights, even when you aren't hitting 0s for a lack of it.
Regarding switching attackers in, I'm probably biased because Tenshi/Iku are quite bulky as attackers, and the rest of the secondary attackers I've tried (like Momiji and Eiki) had reasonable levels of durability, but from my experience, I feel that going with a stay-in attacker is more effective than a switch-in attacker due to them being much easier to maintain buffs on, plus not having to avoid getting the character knocked out since they can withstand pretty much anything when properly set up. Most MT attacks will wipe out a character that's completely focused on offense, but you can get some excellent results in damage mitigation by simply stacking lots of damage reducing effects (affinity, Transcendent, Strategist, Quartz Charm) and HP, making it fairly easy to set a character up for a bulky attacker. DEF/MND don't mean much (a 100% buff for Tenshi generally amounts to taking 10% less damage, pretty lame), so they can usually be ignored, a character's natural defenses are good enough. Even with all the level-up points in ATK/MAG, surviving attacks isn't difficult like this. The only boss with a MT attack that I found to be difficult to withstand was Serpent of Chaos' Disintegrating Breath, which required debuffs in order to make it manageable (fortunately, it is fairly easy to debuff). But since this was with some of the bulkier characters in the game, it might be different for trying it with super frail characters like Kaguya.
Komachi, Yuuka, and Byakuren all have HP regen (although Yuuka's is a bit quirky), and Eiki takes 10% less damage from all elemental attacks, so those would be excellent candidates for bulky attackers, since those are very strong defensive effects. Don't know about the rest of your party so can't say anything about them.
For the Plus Disk bosses, a fair number of the Shadow Touhou fights do have special behaviors if you defeat one boss before another (or even just hit certain HP thresholds), although the consequences vary greatly, from being manageable (and sometimes very interesting) to a virtually guaranteed game over. Since idk if you'd want that kind of thing spoiled for you, figure it would be better not to say more than "they're a thing" unless you want to avoid the really dangerous ones.
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ive been away for like 5 months. is there any menu/gameplay patch for plus disk yet?
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Regarding switching attackers in, I'm probably biased because Tenshi/Iku are quite bulky as attackers, and the rest of the secondary attackers I've tried (like Momiji and Eiki) had reasonable levels of durability, but from my experience, I feel that going with a stay-in attacker is more effective than a switch-in attacker due to them being much easier to maintain buffs on, plus not having to avoid getting the character knocked out since they can withstand pretty much anything when properly set up. Most MT attacks will wipe out a character that's completely focused on offense, but you can get some excellent results in damage mitigation by simply stacking lots of damage reducing effects (affinity, Transcendent, Strategist, Quartz Charm) and HP, making it fairly easy to set a character up for a bulky attacker. DEF/MND don't mean much (a 100% buff for Tenshi generally amounts to taking 10% less damage, pretty lame), so they can usually be ignored, a character's natural defenses are good enough. Even with all the level-up points in ATK/MAG, surviving attacks isn't difficult like this. The only boss with a MT attack that I found to be difficult to withstand was Serpent of Chaos' Disintegrating Breath, which required debuffs in order to make it manageable (fortunately, it is fairly easy to debuff). But since this was with some of the bulkier characters in the game, it might be different for trying it with super frail characters like Kaguya.
To add on to that, even some originally frail characters can take a hit or two as long as you patch up their HP with Eirin and increase their affinities in the library. Examples are Kaguya who has naturally high affinities and synergy with Eirin or Patchouli since her awakening passives all focus on her being better at staying in.
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When I was talking about debuffs, I was mainly thinking about damage mitigating debuffs (ATK, MAG, SPD) rather than damage increasing ones. I'm already putting myself at a "disadvantage" in most fights due to using Eiki and Kaguya (and Yuuka and Alice) as my damage sources, so I thought about how the best way to make up for that would be debuffs. Regardless, I'm not planning to make any changes to my lineup unless the Plus Disk characters really impress me in some way.
My lineup is Komachi, Byakuren, Renko, Aya, Sanae, Reimu, Minoriko, Wriggle, Yuuka, Kaguya, Eiki, and Alice.
Wriggle and Alice are about the only two malleable parts of my line up. Poison sounds like its doing just fine in Plus Disk unlike in LoT1 (and she's the only one "suitable" to be an Herbalist) while I really like Alice's DEF targeting attacks plus I really like Tripwire. I want to mess around with Kokoro and Tokiko
but I don't see any of them influencing my team. Speaking of which, does Tokiko lose "Reading" after using any attack? And how much of a pipe dream would it be to turn her into a decent Magical attacker?
I lack strong WND, DRK, and CLD spells (Penetrator kind of suffices for now) and a dedicated debuffer but other than that, I really like my set up for how I play. Reisen is probably the best bet if I wanted a debuffer and a DRK attack and I've had favorable experiences with her in my synergy runs but I really don't know how I'd cut.
You made the right call in that I really wouldn't want that kind of thing spoiled other than being told it exists. I am kind of sad though that that would make some fights more interesting and I could miss out simply because I explored "incorrectly".
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Ah, well, you have Komachi's Narrow Confines of Avici and Eiki's Trial of the Ten Kings, so you can debuff reasonably effectively even without Reisen and Hina. The only boss I personally felt warranted debuffs was Serpent of Chaos, but debuffing ATK/MAG/SPD in general is still pretty handy. I can't say anything about PSN because I didn't use it at all through my entire playthrough (even for The Great "C", I just SHK locked it the whole fight and used Iku to deal damage), but it does scale properly I think. At least, it's better than in the first game. For
Tokiko, only Youkai Yakuza Kick can reset Reading unless you grab one of her Awakening skills, Tokiko has good stats overall in all areas (especially ATK) due to her leveling rate, but her MAG spell cards are only a little stronger than the cards Toxicologist and Hexer have under normal circumstances, and they only receive damage buffs if you grab the Awakening skill that gives them a chance to reset Reading. Tokiko would be pretty average as a MAG attacker, especially compared to Alice backed by MAlice Cannon. Tokiko should be a fairly good ATK character though, especially on the PHY side of things, Youkai Yakuza Kick's base spell formula is the same as Momiji's Rabies Bite, but has 66% delay instead of 60%, Tokiko has higher ATK (especially with her synergy skill with Reimu/Marisa), and she gets +25% ATK post-Awakening when not under Reading. Reading is a 125% damage increase to Youkai Yakuza Kick, which probably isn't worth trying to get it since you'd have to get Reading every other attack for it to be worthwhile. Dunno how often Reading procs, so can't say what the odds of it being worth it are.
For CLD, Sanae's Moses' Miracle should be sufficient, as it's one of the stronger CLD attacks in the game (CLD in general is the weakest element though). Aya's Peerless Wind God is actually a pretty good WND attack if you want to try that. Eiki's Trial of the Ten Kings does DRK reasonably effectively as well. Might be useful to try running some damage calculations to compare how strong your party's spell cards are with each other so you can see which characters are your best attackers in practice. This wouldn't take into account things like a character's durability or additional effects like status/debuffs, but you can figure that stuff out too. I would say though, if you could fit Marisa back into your team, that would probably be a good idea, as +30% MAG on Alice is an enormous damage buff. Alice should be a high tier damage dealer with Final Blow, MAlice Cannon, and her level 7 spell cards, enough that she may even outclass some characters even when they're hitting weakness and she isn't (or at worst, she's using subclass spells to hit weakness). It's been a similar experience for me with Tenshi, although Girl of Bhava-agra is a 40% ATK buff (but Tenshi has lower ATK than Alice has MAG).
Though, hm, if the boss doesn't resist SPI, it might just be preferable to mainly use Kaguya's Bullet Branch of Hourai with Sanae, since Sanae gives a 30% SPI damage boost. Most weaknesses are about 60 affinity (a 66% damage increase), and a lot of spell cards won't be able to compete with Bullet Branch of Hourai's amazing damage formula (if backed by Sanae's SPI boost) even if they're targeting a weakness like that (and if it's 80 affinity with no SPI resistance, then this would simply be superior). Only thing is that Kaguya is super frail, but this could be applicable to other SPI attackers too, like Komachi, Eiki, and maybe even Reimu (with Grand Incantation). Though managing character delays seems like a hassle for the party too. Doesn't seem that there's anyone that can really speed up switching (Instant Attack, Effective Formation Change, that kind of thing), although max SPD Aya might work satisfactorily.
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I guess I'll add that unless the character was already built as an attacker, they're not going to suddenly become an attacker now. Characters like Suwako and Eiki for example, who could reasonably switch between ATK or MAG would be something I'd consider, but Sanae's staying in a tanky supporting role, and likewise with Aya (although she's max SPD instead of bulk. She's still there expressly for Divine Grandson's Advent and randoms).
I've never had problems with switching with this set up. I've already had the practice playing through LoT1 (granted, without beating SoC, Twins, or WINNER) without all these fancy skills.
Regarding Marisa, she's just too much of a dead weight if Master Spark nuking isn't feasible. I might have forgotten stuff that she gets from Plus Disk that could change her singular element coverage / deal with that limitation but MAlice Cannon isn't worth playing with an 11 character party otherwise. It also doesn't help that I've played that exact way with Marisa in LoT1 a bunch and she hasn't changed much at all nor got interesting skills to mix things up.
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Well, I agree that at first sight LoT1 Marisa and LoT2 Marisa look pretty much the same, but that's less true than you may think. LoT2 Marisa, in fact, has some key perks LoT1 Marisa sorely lacks:
1) LoT1 Marisa's damage formulas, besides Master Spark, are embarassingly low (compared, say, to Yuyuko or Mystia). LoT2 Marisa, on the contrary, actually hits decently hard with her Asteroid Belt.
2) LoT1 Marisa has no means of overcoming MYS resistant enemies. LoT2 Marisa, on the other hand, has Sheer Force. While this is not really helpful vs bosses (even if a Boss resists MYS, you'd rather hit it on its weakness), it still makes Marisa an excellent random encounter cleaner.
3) LoT1's endgame had a higher emphasis on single-target encounters. Once you reach 30F, both the random encounters and the remaining bosses are vs 1 enemy only, making single-target nukes like Nitori clearly superior (even considering Master Spark, Yuuka is remarkably better at this given her superior bulk). LoT2's endgame, on the other hand, seems to feature a lot more traditional multi-target encounters, which makes an AoE cleaner like Marisa surprisingly better.
I still don't know if I want to include Marisa in my final lineup, though that has more to do with me being (1) disappointed more in Alice, rather than Marisa, and (2) more interested in other excellent AoE options (unlike in LoT1, there're a plethora of good AoE nukes to choose from)
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Marisa can choose a sub like ArchMage to get some valuable elemental coverage, once you hit postgame. Kinda pricy, but she's got MP. Delay would be sort of painful as far as bosses go, though.
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I guess I'll add that unless the character was already built as an attacker, they're not going to suddenly become an attacker now. Characters like Suwako and Eiki for example, who could reasonably switch between ATK or MAG would be something I'd consider, but Sanae's staying in a tanky supporting role, and likewise with Aya (although she's max SPD instead of bulk. She's still there expressly for Divine Grandson's Advent and randoms).
I've never had problems with switching with this set up. I've already had the practice playing through LoT1 (granted, without beating SoC, Twins, or WINNER) without all these fancy skills.
Regarding Marisa, she's just too much of a dead weight if Master Spark nuking isn't feasible. I might have forgotten stuff that she gets from Plus Disk that could change her singular element coverage / deal with that limitation but MAlice Cannon isn't worth playing with an 11 character party otherwise. It also doesn't help that I've played that exact way with Marisa in LoT1 a bunch and she hasn't changed much at all nor got interesting skills to mix things up.
Hm, well, if you don't want to use a character for a nonstandard role, then I guess that's that. It seems wasteful when they're actually good at it, but OK.
For the switching thing, I'll give an example. At LoT2's current endgame (around 540 or so), character SPD generally ranges at about 700-900 ATB per tick normally, with max SPD characters at about 1200-1300 (this is without SPD buffs). If you were to switch a character out that just used a heavy delay attack, your best option would be Aya, who hits that 1300 ATB range (IIRC, max SPD buff is about 1900 per tick, 2500 is still very distant). Aya would consume two ticks before she can switch your attacker back in. Besides the lost ticks every time you do this, during the time she's in, your buffing characters won't be able to buff your attacking character, so if they get a turn, it's wasted. And if you're rotating attackers, then it's terribly inefficient for buffing since you have to buff at least two characters from scratch, which slows down your damage a lot. So the most effective solution is to use an Instant Attack character so you can immediately switch back to your primary attacker, so that you can buff them more effectively since they're out more often.
This works more effectively for bulky attackers that can come into the frontline without fear of a boss' attacks compared to fragile characters though. For those, a character with Effective Formation Change would work out better, since then your attacker would get their turn after a single tick, allowing you to get their attack in and switch out quickly. Otherwise, you'd generally look at 3-4 ticks before your attacker can act. Bosses move pretty quickly (Serpent of Chaos gets 1300 ATB per tick, so that would be 3900-5200 ATB), so it's dangerous to switch characters like this, since even if you get your attacker's attack before the boss acts, you have to have another character switch them out before the boss acts. It also makes buffing them a lot harder since you have less time to work with before you need to switch the character out.
Basically, it's just about managing ATB more effectively. While these skills aren't necessary to use (or even the only things you can use, a heavy focus on SPD buffs and debuffs would achieve similar results, and you can use the two together if you wanted), you can probably get better results by using them. Though tbh (and this applies to the Marisa thing too), with my perspective of the game being skewed toward "how can I break this game the most" (with the additional condition of "with Tenshi"), I'm looking primarily at finding ways to trivialize the game the most, so idk if that kind of thing is what you'd want to go for in the first place. Marisa taking up a dead slot in the party for the sole purpose of giving Alice 30% more MAG does actually seem fairly reasonable to me because you generally don't really need more than 2-3 dedicated attacking characters (although I may be biased with my approach on things here). But even so, Marisa is one of the strongest MYS attackers even without wiping a boss with a single Master Spark since she has the +30% MYS damage boosting skill, gets +15% more damage from her Awakening (I find that most boss fights don't even last 10 turns, so Hakkero Charge Mode is generally worse than Hakkero Custom Mode), and gets the very handy ability to restore 7 MP with every Magic Missile, which, combined with Sanae's Awakening (+2 MP per turn minimum), would allow her to fire off a minimum powered Master Spark every 4 or so turns, while doing good damage with Magic Missile (Magic Missile does about 40% of a 27 MP Master Spark's damage by my estimates). This should be a more effective method of using her than going solely for a fully powered Master Spark, only thing is that most bosses aren't weak to MYS in the first place. Though, even without weakness, it might be a pretty good strategy to use.
Though all of this is just assuming you'd rather keep Alice than replace her, and tbh I'm not sure how strong she is relative to the whole game. Just pretty sure she would be one of the strongest attackers in the party with MAlice Cannon active.
I still don't know if I want to include Marisa in my final lineup, though that has more to do with me being (1) disappointed more in Alice, rather than Marisa, and (2) more interested in other excellent AoE options (unlike in LoT1, there're a plethora of good AoE nukes to choose from)
Just curious, what are you currently planning with your party?
Marisa can choose a sub like ArchMage to get some valuable elemental coverage, once you hit postgame. Kinda pricy, but she's got MP. Delay would be sort of painful as far as bosses go, though.
tbh the damage output on Archmage spells for their MP cost is so bad that Marisa would run out of MP against most bosses even when striking weakness. She only gets like, 5-6 uses out of them by the time you get Archmage, or something like that. A Grand Incantation character (like Reimu) would probably be able to make decent use out of them, but otherwise Archmage subclass spells are too expensive for the damage that they deal, and for boss fights, it's normal to run out of MP. Southern Cross in particular is very weak and wouldn't even outdamage Magic Missile (which costs 2 MP as opposed to 10) on a 60 CLD target if it was neutral to MYS, with Sheer Force being enough to generally ensure that even MYS resistant targets take more damage from Magic Missile. Post-Awakening, Hakkero Custom Mode only boosts Marisa's personal spell cards, so she has more incentive to use her personal spell cards instead of subclass spells.
Execution is kinda somewhat usable but realistically, most characters will still run out of MP before they can beat the boss with it. Archmage is honestly kinda bad as a subclass.
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Huh, I guess Keine's less of an auto-choice once you get really late in the game. 9999 ATB swaps sound godlike until most of your characters will move just as fast with 9300 swaps from Rinnosuke or Nazrin, at which point they're all good choices depending on your set up. (Nazrin is still more of an offensive presence, but, with her byakuren piggybacks she could do support.)
Although I'll try Speedy Formation Change shenanigans with awakened Kogasa and instant attackers. Maybe I should go ahead and play Plus since no one can say when (or if?) the patch will happen.
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Yeah, Keine's switches aren't quite as good in practice as they appear on paper. Keine still has the benefit of being a good MT buffing character, but she doesn't have racial damage bonuses like Rinnosuke (Other) and Nazrin (Divine), and Enhancer/Herbalist are good subclasses for ST support purposes (and ST is more important than MT unless you have two attackers). Nazrin in particular can trigger Extra Attack while using subclass buffs, which is pretty cool (although gimmicky and useless for Herb of Awakening). I've been considering ditching Keine (my current party formation is Tenshi, Iku, Keine, Momiji, Rumia, Aya, Mystia, Satori, Reisen, Sanae, Miko, Akyuu), but there isn't really any character in particular that I want to switch her for besides Suwako (for the 30% buff to NTR attacks on Tenshi), but Suwako is too frail to stay in effectively (she's one of the only characters that I've tested that cannot survive Serpent of Chaos' Disintegrating Breath using the setup I used for it) and too much of a hassle to attack with compared to Tenshi, so it's just impractical to use her. So I'm stuck with Keine for now.
Speedy Formation Change + Instant Attack should be a pretty cool combination, although you'll have some difficulties maintaining buffs on them like that. Post-Awakening Momiji can sustain a 100% ATK buff by herself with her personal skills (far as I can tell, White Wolf Tengu's Sword and Shield activates before damage is calculated, so she has a maximum buff of 100% ATK on the moment she attacks instead of 86% like most characters would, which is a good damage boost), but she still won't have a Boost effect on her, so that's 36%/50% damage missing out unless you can find an opportunity to get the buff on her. Momiji is a pretty great attacker with Instant Attack since she loses its main weakness (buff maintenance), and Instant Attack itself is a huge boost in how quickly a character can dish out damage. Mystia's Midnight Chorus Master is the strongest attack offered by Instant Attack characters (especially with Silent Singing Voice activated), but Mystia needs more assistance maintaining her buffs compared to Momiji. Mystia is also reasonably durable (about as durable as Sanae is) due to her fast leveling rate and should be able to take a hit from most bosses. Can't say much about Chen since haven't tried her, but I don't think she has any significant advantages compared to Momiji.
As for Plus Disk, you might as well start on it, unless the dialogue is important to you. You could always make an extra save at the start of it so you can go over it again when the EN patch comes out if that is the case though. If you get stuck on anything or need to read something, then you can just ask about it here since there's a few people who've already gone through Plus Disk that can help you.
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As for Plus Disk, you might as well start on it, unless the dialogue is important to you. You could always make an extra save at the start of it so you can go over it again when the EN patch comes out if that is the case though. If you get stuck on anything or need to read something, then you can just ask about it here since there's a few people who've already gone through Plus Disk that can help you.
is there actually someone making the EN patch for it now? if not i'd be willing to give a stab at it. see what i can do.
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I don't know anything about the EN patch. Don't want/need it, so I don't look into it. Maybe someone else can tell you what's going on with it.
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in order for me to look into how possible it is for me to apply the ENG contents over to the plus disk, i kinda need the plus disk. if someone can PM me it, that would be great. im going to sleep >_>;
i looked all over and found nothing, not even a outdated version.
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is there actually someone making the EN patch for it now? if not i'd be willing to give a stab at it. see what i can do.
There's sort of an english patch out, but it basically only covers skill and item names. This is still incredibly helpful for actually playing the game, mind you. Its only real flaws from a pure gameplay perspective are that some of the skill descriptions go off the screen and it hasn't translated any of the rock bypassing requirements[E.G: "You must collect 162 potato extracts to pass"].
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To be more specific, I think the latest edition of the patch covers everything except plus disk dialogue and rock descriptions (although a lack of rock descriptions can be minorly problematic, I imagine they can generally be passed by fully exploring the floor(s) and defeating available events/bosses, so).
It should be the one in this post? https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15439.msg1354086.html#msg1354086
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Just curious, what are you currently planning with your party?
I'm still theorymonning at this stage - mostly because I still have not heard enough about the Endless Corridor to make an informed decision (ex: how difficult are random encounters compared to bosses, how much power vs "value" (Appraisers, Shou/Kourin/Nazrin, etc.) you need, how much of a concern TP consumption is, and so on). I do have some firm points though (for TL;DR purposes, I have bolded the names of the characters I intend to use).
The first is the Sealing Club - Renko and Maribel. The former is, IMO, the strongest tank in the game. Thanks to maintenance, as well as Sealing Club's MP regeneration, Renko can become exceptionally bulky - to the point I managed to beat Ame-no-Mokurano on floor 12 simply by tanking it with Renko (and I wasn't even overlevelled for that, I just had over 300 SPI resistance and a huge HP pool). Renko's Charge is also surprisingly useful, especially if the rest of your team has regeneration, too. Even if this is not the case, anyway, Maribel has a very good AoE heal which also doubles as a damage boost.
Speaking of which, Maribel is an awesome attacker. Her Void AoE clears random encounters easily since it's basically unresisted, and her ability to heal the team while delivering solid damage is nearly unmatched. To top it off, she has easily one of the strongest Awakened Skills in the game. Vision Sharing basically grants the entire team a passive 25% boost to all stats as long as Maribel is kept 100% buffed (incidentally, Renko gets a whopping +50%, making her even more unbreakable). Even if Maribel is in the back, the frontline would still get approx. a 12% boost - which is almost the equivalent of a kinship bonus. In short, Renko and Maribel are one of the strongest pairs in the game (and I'm surprised I don't hear as much about them on this thread, have you even tested them?).
Yuuka also worked impressively well for me. Unlike her LoT1 counterpart, which is only good because of Master Spark, LoT2 Yuuka has an incredible damage output, has a huge MP pool, is pretty damn tanky for a sweeper of her power, and is very easy to keep buffed (which makes her an ideal partner for Renko and Maribel). Moreover, since she has no kinship families, she slots well into any lineup, and can be switched in easily during any boss fights. She's also an ideal candidate for those uber subclasses, because of her titanic stats.
Reimu is another character I've been using for a long time, but which I'm a bit less sure about. While she's still an extraordinary healer, it's not one I absolutely need for any fight at higher levels. Much depends on how relevant her MP regen ability is - which is part of why I'd like to know more about the Endless Corridor and how "taxing" it is. The same holds true for Sanae and her TP saving ability. Though, at least, Sanae combined with Reimu, Suwako and Kanako make for a very good random encounter cleaning party. This is especially true once Suwako is equipped with a "certain" uber class skill which gives her a gigantic SPI nuke, which is further powered by Sanae's SPI party boost.
Tenshi and Iku I was a bit on the fence, but I heard a lot of good things about them, so I'm going to try and include them in my party.
Miko attracts me because of her synergy with Renko's buffing (since Miko can keep buffs up to +120%), as well as her Maintenance-like skill. She does level up extremely slowly, but given the equipments I've seen from the spoiler files a while back, I'm pretty sure just about any character with Maintenance (including Nitori, even without Youkai Mountain Alliance, which unfortunately includes chars I'd rather not use in the first place) will be extremely powerful in the Plus Disk, right?
So... this leaves me with what? Let's see...
Renko / Yuuka / Miko / Maribel
Sanae / Reimu / Suwako / Kanako
??? / Tenshi / Iku / ???
The good question now would be - what should go in the last two slots? It largely depends, again, on whether I need more power vs bosses, or more "value" to farm random encounters. If I were to go down the "boss" route, I would probably choose Byakuren and Nitori. The former is one of the tougher tanks in the game, and the Plus Disk version of Duplicating Chant is just perfect for keeping Tenshi fully buffed at all times. The latter, as mentioned above, can reach astronomical stats thanks to her Maintenance skill, even without other Youkai Mountain Alliance party members.
If I wanted more rewards - in terms of XP and money - I would probably go with Rinnosuke (over Byakuren) and Shou (over Nitori), instead. Together, they provide a hefty money and xp boost, especially if Shou is the one finishing foes off with Radiant Treasure Gun and if Rinnosuke takes the Magician subclass to keep Shou's MP topped off. Such a setup, however, would require overlevelling random encounters significantly, and would mean having 2 dead slots against most bosses, I'm assuming. Is this handicap made up for by the increased rewards? This is the question I'd like to answer before making my decision (though ofc, until I'm that late into the postgame, Byakuren and Nitori would remain the more plausible alternative.
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Oh yeah, I was planning on getting a lot of use out of Mari-Renko and having MAribel be one of my first few awakenings. Vision Sharing and double damage on the void attack sound awesome, not to mention Sealing Club was fixed to actually function and grant Mari-Renko that big stat boost (which didn't work before), plus vision sharing making Renko get silly... (Although, honestly, I was considering HP tank Renko with the regen anyway, especially as I'm planning on using Kogasa as a frontline hp wall with her own awakened regen, also one of my first one or two awakenings.)
I really liked Yuuka on paper, but she was almost impossible to use due to colossal defensive stats in original postgame, like a large portion of the cast... maybe she'll make a return to my team in Plus Disk. (Since I'm using kogasa and the instant attack cast though, there probably won't be room, tbh. I mean, I'd rather have Meiling in free offensive slots, she's too good.) Miko does look absolutely stellar as well, and might make one of my first 3 awakens because her awakening skills are just so sweet (and kinda necessary to make that one attack of hers work). Might go to Momi due to my party setup though, hah.
Rinnosuke takes the Magician subclass to keep Shou's MP topped off. Such a setup, however, would require overlevelling random encounters significantly, and would mean having 2 dead slots against most bosses, I'm assuming. Is this handicap made up for by the increased reward
Whaaat? Dead slots? Rinnosuke's Efficient Formation Change is an absolute asset in boss fights, and in postgame you can power up all those high boosts to make his stats and resistances/affinites all very solid. Eventually you can even get First Aid to heal a good amount of HP+statuses, and Battle Command can do some topping off on spare turns. And Magician is actually a really synergistic subclass for him with it's 1 mp regen per turn, because his skills are mega cheap and low delay; it allows you to use them as freely as you desire when he's not swapping people around. Like, if Keine isn't such a godlike asset after all, all the pressure to awaken star characters means I'll probably just use Rinnosuke for the job just because he's a solid character and not for any farming reasons. Keine would be better earlier and is no slouch herself, but having to awaken her first is a pretty heavy cost.
Shou isn't particularly good until she's awakened, though, and it sounds like boss fights end pretty fast so she doesn't have the time to really get her infinite atk pump gimmick going. However, since Rinno jacks up her offensive stats up, she'd still work enough.
Also, someone was ranking the Instant Attack people before for Speedy Formation Change shenanigans. Momiji's certainly the best, yeah. Chen actually manages to make it though I think, because A.Postgame you can fix up her pitiful base ATK and get some level of power behind her attacks, B.She was useless in maingame because of high defenses, but that's not true postgame, and C.She'll get multiple turns in between Kogasa's Speedy Swaps (...I think? She's got an absolutely blistering speed stat and Accelerate, so with proper tweaking, it should be possible?), and with multiple attacks firing off she can make up for her lower damage- especially because she can do, say, Idaten -> Phoenix Spread and get swapped by Kogasa.
The main thing is she'll burn through MP at the speed of light, especially trying to keep her buffs up. :T I don't know whether it'd be best to sub her as Warrior for buff upkeep, or Hexer/Magician for mp upkeep. How much debuff do you need to get 2mp off hexer conversion? Although, I suppose one thing she could actually do sometimes is send off one buff or idaten, then swap in Momiji or Mystia to slam out a higher damage attack, who then gets swapped by Kogasa again right after... allowing her to upkeep more MP through hexer/magician and keep the damage train going. Depends on boss resistances what's best, I s'pose, since Phoenix Spread Wings ain't half bad. The Kogasa megaswap setup blows through all of their mp, really, because she's effectively giving them all a godlike 93% delay on their attacks. That'd be the point where I'd focus on my bulky damage dealers for a bit like Meiling, Nitori, Miko. XD
...the main problem with my team is between Byakuren being the obigatory bufftank, and then having Rinno the switchtank and Renko the megatank, and then I'm putting in Kogasa for swapmachine regentank, I have a bit... too much on my plate? XDD I guess once I awaken Kogasa I'll be dropping Rinnosuke for her. All my non-instant attackers are the bulkiest of the bunch (sans Maribel, who's not a slouch with Renko out either), so they can take a hit when swapped in.
Lesse.
Meiling/Nitori/Miko -- Bulky Attackers
Mari/Renko-- Sealing Cluuuub
Byakuren/Rumia (or reimu?) - Obligatory Support Characters
Kogasa/Chen/Mystia/Momiji - Megaswap set, with Kogasa dealing out lovely hp regen to whoever else is on front in the other two slots like Mari/Renko or Byakuren/bulksters
Hina - Tanky debuffs for ERRYBODY.
...huh. But I kinda wanted to use Futo. Well. I'll just have to see how things go when I actually play. As it is, the current plan already involves swapping out Rinno for kogasa and Kaguya/Eirin/Iku/Yuyuko for new attackers. Yuyuko's kind of total garbage versus bosses so far anyway, though, and I don't think I'll need Eirin's overheals after I awaken kogasa... maybe. And Kaguya can just make cameo appearances on mega-defensive fights.
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@Serela I expressed myself inaccurately about Rinnosuke - what I wanted to mean is that he'd be dead weight in relation to my team setup, which relies a lot on bulky attackers with fast attacks (like Yuuka and Kanako) which are meant to stay in. Rinnosuke is really good as you said, but it requires team members which can actually take advantage of his fast switches, such as Yuugi or Suika.
Also, about Renko and Maribel, another great skill of Maribel is Ability to See Boundaries. I overlooked that skill at first, but in practice it's absolutely murderous - in fact, it allows Maribel to completely murder the likes of Tenshi and Ame-no-Mokurano as soon as they buff up (and when I say murder, I mean 3HKOing 12F Tenshi through State of Enlightenment with minimal self-buffs). Really, the amount of synergy and tricks between those two girls is astounding, and must be seen first-hand to be fully appreciated - no other character duo is equally versatile, powerful, and self-sufficient at the same time.
As for Yuuka, you're right that against enemies with really high defenses she doesn't do a lot of damage, but she's not the sort of attacker which always gets 0s and 1s either - for example, against the Great C she's an all-star nuke which can handle the whole fight on her own, and even against those two mini-bosses on 20F which unlock the final boss she can still deal respectable damage, even if resisted. I can only imagine her getting better in the Post Game.
About your team, I like it but it seems very "boss-oriented", with lots of switchers and tanks. Are you sure it's a good idea for something like the Endless Corridor? To be honest, I'd rather have 1-2 "lines" (i.e. groups of 4 characters) for bosses and 1 line for random encounters (possibly even just 1 for bosses and 2 for random encounters). Unlike in TL1 where you had only to deal with WINNER, it seems here TP and MP consumption will be a concern, after all, which makes more than maybe 2-3 non attacking characters suspiciously risky to me.
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Only Renko/Byakuren/Kogasa/Hina are support-focus characters. Rumia has a great MT heal, but she's also got great attacks, and she -needs- plenty of magic to properly use her heal anyway since it's not as powerful as Reimu's- and her attacks also still do good damage if she's in a somewhat mixed build. Byakuren and Renko can still buff the team up which is wonderfully helpful in randoms, Kogasa can still swap in instant attackers even in randoms for damage tossing, and Hina can still debuff the enemy party for some support.
...oh wait, baykuren's scroll doesn't do crud in Plus until she's buffed up. :T Ah well, one dead weight character is OK. Hina's not super good in randoms either, but honestly, it's possible I'll make her more of an offensive build sooner or later once I'm far enough in the corridor to bother awakening her. It's also not out of the question I'd replace her for another debuffer, although I'm not planning on it- Cirno's irresistable SPD debuffs do look tempting...
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If MP sustain for instant attackers is a problem, then perhaps consider Keine. Her Organized Formation Change skill gives 1 MP to anyone involved in a Formation Change. With two Instant Attackers, you can just have them swap each other back and forth until they're at full MP. This has the added benefit of maxing out Accelerate and Momiji's DEF/MND buffs in the process. You could go without Keine if you gave the Instant Attackers Magician, but that's probably not a good choice for most other purposes.
While this probably isn't relevant with the Kogasa strategy, you can also effectively nullify ailments or debuffs by giving one of your Instant Attacker the Herbalist subclass. While most "Per turn" effects require that that ATB be at 1001 or higher, the Herbalist skills that reduce the effects of ailments and debuffs do not. By using the Instant Attack loop with your Herbalist, you can cure any ailments or debuffs in a single instant of game time. This is also incredibly tedious, but might be worth it for the 9F Tenshi fight to deal with her Grass Knot/Shadowstep spam.
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I'm still theorymonning at this stage - mostly because I still have not heard enough about the Endless Corridor to make an informed decision
Right, yeah, this is something that hasn't been discussed much, huh? From my experience with the Endless Corridor, it was actually fairly easy to grind on. Best as I can tell, there's a rather quirky way it picks enemies, in that it seems to select "groups" of enemies on loading the game, with the rest simply not appearing for that duration of the game session. I'm basing this off of extensive grinding where I only encountered the same types of enemies through hundreds of battles, and then seeing totally different enemies when loading the game again. It does seem to separate enemies into "tiers" based on their drop rates, so it's not 100% randomized, but it does mean that there's no guarantee that you'll see the more dangerous enemies in the list. Your odds of seeing them if they are set to spawn are much higher than they'd initially appear, as a consequence. There's a total of 70 different enemies in the Endless Corridor, but most of them are trash mobs, and even the F.O.E. and boss palette swaps go down fairly quickly, usually taking 1-2 MT attacks.
The usual archetypes exist of course. You've got your high EVA enemies, high SPD enemies, enemies with high HP + low DEF/MND and enemies with low HP + high DEF/MND, stuff like that. There's also enemies that resist a bunch of elements but are super weak to their weaknesses, and some enemies are slow but threaten party wipes if they attack. Every single enemy that shows up is palette swapped from an existing enemy, F.O.E., or boss, usually (but not always) with the same attacks, weaknesses, and behavior, though for the ones that have multiple palette swaps it's not always obvious which one it's taken from. I can't really say much about how most of them behave that's relevant to grinding outside of that. Having 2-3 elements (or just using VOI I guess) would be preferable to handle the varying resistances, as there's a few enemies with 400-500 affinity in an element or two that'll tank a hit or two of pretty much anything of that element. One of those being SPI would be a good idea, as SPI is the most common weakness and some enemies basically rely on you attacking that weakness to defeat in a timely fashion. FIR/CLD/PHY might be good too, as there's one boss palette swap in particular (3f's boss that Yukari and Yuyuko help the party with
that has way higher HP than anything else in the Infinite Corridor (for comparison, at 91f it has 20m HP, the next highest enemy was 14m, the 90f boss had 27m), and those are its weaknesses.
It'd probably not be too useful, but if you want a list of enemies I could write one up. I can't provide much information on most of them because most don't have noteworthy characteristics or I beat them too quickly to see anything though, but the ones that I can actually give info on would stand out all the more for it.
Anyway, enemy information aside, my lineup for Endless Corridor was max SPD Sanae (Strategist), max SPD Aya (Enhancer), max MAG Iku (Transcendent), and max ATK Tenshi (Warrior). The weaker trash mobs go down to Light Dragon's Sigh and Violent Motherland without a need for buffs, but buffs are needed for the tougher ones, and MP is a non-issue with Sanae's Awakening skill. With everyone at half MP, Sanae provides a nearly infinite supply of MP that lasts through the entire Corridor exploration duration with almost no need to Concentrate ever (except for Aya when abusing Divine Grandson's Advent too much, but she can afford to do that). Having Sanae take extra turns via switching or Divine Grandson's Advent helps to avoid running out of MP if the usual buff-attack strategy doesn't work out. There were occasionally complications when multiple dangerous enemies that had high durability showed up, but that's simply bad luck. The majority of fights were simply a thoughtless buff - attack - win route, with the main variation being whether Iku or Tenshi attacked. TP management wasn't really a thing with the way I ran things though, since I just exited the Corridor when a character ran out of TP and started over again. With the Tokugawa Statue and TP Boost, the characters had 60+ TP, with Sanae's TP recovery skill activating on an averaged out basis each character has 75+ TP effectively. And yeah, Sanae's MP recovery makes it very viable to fight with the same 4 characters for that entire time, short of trying to use Archmage spell cards it's kind of hard to genuinely run out of MP.
Another thing I didn't try to do was grind on the "Risky" floors that feature enormously powered up enemies. I didn't want to try to deal with something like that, but if they can be defeated in a practical manner I guess they'd be good EXP? I personally wouldn't try it and would stick with grinding out the faster, weaker fights.
In short, Renko and Maribel are one of the strongest pairs in the game (and I'm surprised I don't hear as much about them on this thread, have you even tested them?).
I haven't since I specifically wanted to use Tenshi because she's Tenshi instead of any specific gameplay merits (fortunately, she turned out to be very strong), but I agree that Renko and Maribel are probably the strongest duo synergy characters, and have wonderful merits going for them. If I wasn't going specifically for Tenshi, I'd certainly want to try them out (they're two of the more interesting characters in the first place anyway). One thing I want to add that you didn't mention was that Maribel has Grand Incantation, which is a very strong damage boosting skill to have, especially since you don't have Akyuu for her Awakening damage boost. Alternating Concentrate and attacking is basically a 70% damage boost with Grand Incantation, with greatly increased MP efficiency (though she already effectively doesn't run out of MP with Rapid Charge and Sealing Club). Grand Incantation also makes Maribel an effective MT healer, since a 140% boost to her 16% MAG heal bumps it up to 38%, which is comparable with Rumia's Demarcation. It should work pretty well if you have another attacker and you need to heal, as you don't have to switch your other attacker out.
Reimu is another character I've been using for a long time, but which I'm a bit less sure about. While she's still an extraordinary healer, it's not one I absolutely need for any fight at higher levels. Much depends on how relevant her MP regen ability is - which is part of why I'd like to know more about the Endless Corridor and how "taxing" it is. The same holds true for Sanae and her TP saving ability. Though, at least, Sanae combined with Reimu, Suwako and Kanako make for a very good random encounter cleaning party. This is especially true once Suwako is equipped with a "certain" uber class skill which gives her a gigantic SPI nuke, which is further powered by Sanae's SPI party boost.
From my experience with Sanae's Awakening skill, as long as your MP consumption is around the 6 range, you have pretty much unlimited MP, so Reimu's 66% chance to get +1 MP is pretty redundant. Even at the level 540-560 range, Rumia (second strongest MAG dependent MT heal) has a hard time fully recovering a party's HP (but that's partly because damage reducing skills like Transcendent's and Strategist's also reduce non-% based healing), something Reimu has no issue with, but further along in the game, Reimu's healing power advantage will certainly be lost, so if you don't have any other reason to use her, switching her out for another character may be ideal. Kanako looks to be a very strong attacker, but I'm not too sure about Suwako, especially when compared with Kanako. Kanako gets Majesty(+ post-Awakening) for 6-9% more to all stats per turn, Sky Creation for +32% more damage when in the rightmost slot (where she belongs), has great bulk alongside Desperation, and on SPI weak bosses she can further buff herself using Mad Dance on Medoteko for her Awakening skill Divine Authority. So she's looking at 9% more stats by default, 25% more if she's at ~60% HP, +32% damage just for occupying an ideal frontline slot, and a further 10-50% more damage with Divine Authority (with a bonus 5-25% damage reduction). Suwako, meanwhile, gets 36% more damage if she's in the leftmost slot (only 4% more damage than Kanako, but she absolutely can't stay in that slot), +30% more NTR damage, and post-Awakening, +20% more damage for every turn she spends in the back, capping at 100%. Suwako has higher attacking stats than Kanako, but Majesty compensates for that a lot. To top it off, Suwako specializes in NTR damage, but you already have Yuuka and Tenshi (though Tenshi needs Iku to compete here) for that, so you have three of the best NTR attackers in the game, and Yuuka/Tenshi are both pretty bulky (Yuuka moreso imo). Doesn't seem like Suwako would be able to do a whole lot to be useful in the party composition, but maybe I'm missing something. Suwako does contribute to Moriya synergy, so that is a definite thing she's got going for her.
At the very least, I can confidently say that Kanako would use that subclass much better, since Kanako has Majesty+ and Sky Creation to strengthen it, while Suwako has nothing unless you want her in the leftmost slot (and that's going to get her wrecked by fast enemies without Aya, and sometimes even with Aya).
Tenshi and Iku I was a bit on the fence, but I heard a lot of good things about them, so I'm going to try and include them in my party.
My favorites
While I'm obviously biased for them with how much I've said about them, I do think they legitimately have great merits. Tenshi's one of the top NTR attackers with Girl of Bhava-agra active and gains even more ATK with DEF/MND buffs and when striking weakness, plus she has excellent HP post-Awakening. She's certainly one of the better attackers in the game, mainly "held back" by the fact that Iku basically needs to be at the front for her to be do good damage (Girl of Bhava-agra is roughly a 50% damage boost). But Iku is the best ST buffer for ATK/MAG and has only slightly less HP than Tenshi (but higher DEF/MND with Hisouten Guard), and Iku is also a very respectable defense ignoring attacker provided you can debuff the enemy's MND to -50% (or just use her normal attack with Sorcerer). With leveling rates and her Awakening factored in, Iku has pretty much the best MAG growth in the game, but regrettably doesn't have anything else to really bolster it besides Heavenly Maiden's Blow. Elekiter Dragon Palace is a strong WND attack, but Kanako's Virtue of Wind God would probably get better results unless you need to ignore defense. Iku shines more as a ST buffer than an attacker I would say, and it's pretty hard to top a 68% ATK/MAG buff with merely 6600 delay. Supple Hagoromo and a level 5 Thundercloud Stickleback has a low enough PAR rate that I find it pretty consistent to buff even characters with 30 PAR resistance without drawbacks.
I've probably said a lot of this stuff before, but just reiterating it. A bit shameless advertisement, but I recorded most of the fights in the game with my Tenshi/Iku focused party if you want to look at gameplay of that (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbKPr8l6tlmCV1p0_paXnxPWDa0wzrJ9t). I try to watch as many other players as I can to learn more about potential strategies to use, but not many people upload Labyrinth of Touhou 2 gameplay unfortunately.
Miko attracts me because of her synergy with Renko's buffing (since Miko can keep buffs up to +120%), as well as her Maintenance-like skill. She does level up extremely slowly, but given the equipments I've seen from the spoiler files a while back, I'm pretty sure just about any character with Maintenance (including Nitori, even without Youkai Mountain Alliance, which unfortunately includes chars I'd rather not use in the first place) will be extremely powerful in the Plus Disk, right?
In the extreme long-term, I'm not too confident about Maintenance users since idk how strong characters are going to get compared to their equipment, but for right now, they're very strong with Plus Disk's best equipment, yeah. For a practical example of Miko's leveling rate, at Reimu 540 Miko is at level 479, and at Iku 540 Miko is at level 496. Miko also gets +16% more ATK/MAG and +24% more DEF/MND/SPD post-Awakening by default, which is pretty good. Miko also has the benefit of being able to ignore 40% of an enemy's defenses when she has more than 50% of her HP, which she generally will. Not large enough to be able to dent bosses that have obscenely high defenses, but enough to be a decent damage buff for general usage. Finally, Tradition of Just Rewards debuffs all stats, so she can attack and provide good debuffs at the same time. I have no idea if Sanae's +30% SPI damage buff works on Tradition of Just Rewards when it's working off its DRK element as a composite tech, but I would assume that it does.
The good question now would be - what should go in the last two slots?
Well, looking at "gaps" in the party composition, I think you'd need something to effectively counter random enemies that have high SPD, since they'll consistently attack before your party can and cost you TP or even wipe out characters. Aya getting a guaranteed first turn is the most consistent way to deal with this and would get a vote from me, though using Strategist and Monk for subclasses can counter this, if less consistently. There's also no Instant Attack, Effective Formation Change, or the like, but if you're relying on low-average (5000+) delay attacks then this is not really necessary, and this is what you're doing so it wouldn't help you too much. After that, hm...Suwako has a solid MND debuff (-36%, this is the 3rd strongest MND debuff IIRC next to Reisen and Kogasa) for Iku if you need a defense ignoring attack (and such a thing is pretty important for select bosses), so you've got that covered, though Monk's Iron Mountain Charge is good enough for NTR weak targets anyway. Doesn't look like you have any good PHY options, so that might be something to look into. Akyuu is pretty strong for support (even with max SPD she can take some hits and not have to resurrect from them), she'd be the other character I'd recommend for how strong the +50% Boost and +16% weakness damage is, but Herbalist can mitigate her usefulness. Super Incantation should make her very strong offensively too, but I haven't done any damage calculations for it since she's way better for my party as support.
I personally don't really think Byakuren is all that great since she needs to buff herself first to buff other characters more effectively than Sanae, and Herbalist's Placebo Effect quickly becomes a better all-buff once a target has already received a decent amount of buffs (about the 60% range is good). You don't really need to buff a character more than 30-40% every couple turns, and the 7000 delay on Placebo Effect makes it a lot better for maintaining a high buff than Byakuren's 5000 delay on Sutra - Duplicating Chant.
Found something somewhat important while testing Byakuren's buffs though: her skills are still +14% buffs. The descriptions say 12%, but they actually increase by 14% still. Also, Enhancer doesn't buff Sutra - Duplicating Chant. This is pretty lame since that means it caps at +56% while Enhancer Sanae's Miracle Fruit is a +48% buff.
Anyway, for a more thorough comparison, Byakuren gains +14% buffs every turn, and needs a 75% buff on herself to match Sanae's Miracle Fruit. Relying solely on Byakuren's self-buffs to meet that, she would take 14 turns. Using Sutra - Duplicating Chant on herself to speed up the process, she would take 4 turns (3 self uses of Sutra - Duplicating Chant) to exceed Sanae's Miracle Fruit (Enhancer or not).
Turn 1: 14% (Scroll buff: 7%)
Turn 2: 32% (Scroll buff: 17%)
Turn 3: 56% (Scroll buff: 31%)
Turn 4: 88% (Scroll buff: 49%)
Might as well just use Sanae to buff instead since Byakuren would have to spend multiple turns buffing herself instead of supporting. Other characters can also buff her, but that's still taking turns away from buffing the character(s) you actually want to buff. Generally, my preferred method for buffing Tenshi (which is more or less applicable to most other characters) is to use Miracle Fruit once or twice and then Placebo Effect for the rest of the fight. Sutra - Duplicating Chant wouldn't change anything about that, and without that, It wouldn't change with Byakuren, and Byakuren doesn't have the +30% SPI damage or +40% (or 44%, unsure) Youkai damage benefits that Sanae has, or a ST heal like Sanae's Yasaka's Divine Wind. So I'd recommend skipping her.
Nitori is about as much of a bruiser as usual, though I think Plus Disk indirectly nerfs Super Scope 3D because of how awful its compatibility is with the special subclass. She's certainly a very strong character nonetheless, but besides Super Scope 3D, her damage output isn't outrageously high compared to what other characters are capable of doing, so it might be worth looking at characters too.
Can't say anything about having characters that boost battle rewards because I don't know what kind of value to attribute that property. Which is rather unfortunate, since that's important for your party member selections. If it helps, if you didn't see my post about it already, it turns out that Appraiser does stack, but the visual display doesn't properly reflect this. So if you have say a 50% boost by default with items, having an Appraiser in the front will show a boost of 3/3/6% for EXP/money/drop rate, regardless of whether you have 1 or 4 in the front, but the game will properly account for all of the boosts from each Appraiser despite that.
But yeah, my personal recommendations for the last two slots would be Aya and Akyuu, with Aya helping random encounters (with some boss utility as well) and Akyuu being for bosses. I might add that since the game offers extremely easy access to Infinite Gems you can afford to reset characters pretty much on a whim so you can actually experiment with characters, although that's not true of Awakening items...which do require a lot more proper planning. At the very least, you could save and reset on some bosses to experiment with strategies and stuff so you can try things out in practice to see if you like them or not.
Whaaat? Dead slots? Rinnosuke's Efficient Formation Change is an absolute asset in boss fights, and in postgame you can power up all those high boosts to make his stats and resistances/affinites all very solid. Eventually you can even get First Aid to heal a good amount of HP+statuses, and Battle Command can do some topping off on spare turns. And Magician is actually a really synergistic subclass for him with it's 1 mp regen per turn, because his skills are mega cheap and low delay; it allows you to use them as freely as you desire when he's not swapping people around.
tbh Rinnosuke doesn't really need MP conservation since he's looking at 48 MP minimum by end-game with MP High Boost (18 base, +20 from Orbs/Gems, +10 from MP High Boost), so you can probably go with another subclass for him, like Enhancer, Herbalist, or Strategist.
Dunno if this is common knowledge, but as an aside, Rinnosuke's Giga Boost skills cost 75 SP per level compared to the 50 per level that Mega Boost skills require. Ridiculously expensive compared to his High Boosts, so he's gonna be stuck with those for a while. 375 levels just to max a single Giga Boost.
Also, someone was ranking the Instant Attack people before for Speedy Formation Change shenanigans. Momiji's certainly the best, yeah. Chen actually manages to make it though I think, because A.Postgame you can fix up her pitiful base ATK and get some level of power behind her attacks, B.She was useless in maingame because of high defenses, but that's not true postgame, and C.She'll get multiple turns in between Kogasa's Speedy Swaps (...I think? She's got an absolutely blistering speed stat and Accelerate, so with proper tweaking, it should be possible?), and with multiple attacks firing off she can make up for her lower damage- especially because she can do, say, Idaten -> Phoenix Spread and get swapped by Kogasa.
Hm, well, tbh, Flight of Idaten does like half the damage Momiji can do with Rabies Bite, so idk about Chen competing on the PHY side. Chen should be able to act twice in a row with some SPD investment (or a lack thereof for Kogasa, she's already hitting 700 ATB easy for end-game), but she's still spending 4 MP to do what Momiji can do with 3 while being nowhere near as tanky or having any real advantage to speak of (plus Kimontonkou's MP costs). Regardless of her disadvantages in that area, Chen's Phoenix Spread Wings is very strong though, and lacks proper competition from the other Instant Attack characters since their best FIR attack is Explosive Flame Sword, which is a strong spell card (particularly for Momiji since she has +50% ACC), but still loses out. If you want to use Chen specifically, using her for that would get the best results, I think.
The main thing is she'll burn through MP at the speed of light, especially trying to keep her buffs up. :T I don't know whether it'd be best to sub her as Warrior for buff upkeep, or Hexer/Magician for mp upkeep. How much debuff do you need to get 2mp off hexer conversion?
Hexer requires a 50% debuff to get +2 MP and 100% for +3 MP from Hexer's Conversion, though tbh I think it's better to increase MP efficiency by boosting your damage output and get more mileage out of the MP you spend than to try to conserve and restore it. Simply using 1 Phoenix Spread Wings per switch as opposed to Idaten > Phoenix, for example. Chen has base 20 MP with +5 from MP Boost and +20 from Orbs/Gems for a baseline of 45 MP, so if she uses Kimontonkou, then Phoenix Spread Wings say...3 times without buffing (so 86% > 73% > 63%), then repeat, she can be expected to be able to perform Phoenix Spread Wings 9 times, which should be fairly doable with a bunch of damage boosts (usual stuff, 20% weakness boost from Divine Falchion, 36% damage boost from Herbalist, preferably the 56% damage boost from the special subclass but Warrior's 43% damage boost for Row attacks works too). If you have one of the other Instant Attackers put a Magic Circuit on her, then MP should be a non-issue.
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If MP sustain for instant attackers is a problem, then perhaps consider Keine. Her Organized Formation Change skill gives 1 MP to anyone involved in a Formation Change.
This... is actually a pretty good idea. Thanks! Sanae's value in the infinite corridor also does sound pretty incredible.
re:Instant attackers, the thing with my party plan is I'd be firing off their attacks every 700 ticks (or more, in Chen's case), so I was figuring that I'd use all three and -still- probably be trying to keep their MP in mind. Chen and Momiji both have awful mp stats, and Mystia's only eh, especially with Chorus Master costing her five. Keine would help a looot by giving them 2 mp per swapin and swapout, and probably mostly negate the issue- I could start using Ill-Starred Dive when mystia's mp ran out and Momiji realistically wouldn't be running out unless I was using swordmaster attacks for hitting weakness. Yeah, losing out damage per attack once the mp gets too low, but the sheer speed... (Of course, when their mp gets low, I can always just bring in my other attackers instead, but Keine would prolong things by a very large amount.)
Chen having kimontonkou is nice but her mp would just die from using that -and- attacks, which was why I was considering hexer. Cutting Chen out entirely puts more pressure on Mystia meaning I'd need to buff her a little more... but once Kogasa can eventually subclass Dragon God
, Warrior Mystia plus that would need fairly little buff upkeep, so that's probably fine. For everything else, I can always just use my -other- attackers once the instant ones burn out.
Heeeeh. Originally megaswap tactics only needed 2 party slots, but Keine bumps it up to a concerning 3. Still, she's not REQUIRED to be in there all the time, and can sub herbalist or somethin' to provide damage support. And since I'll have a speedy formation changer, it's actually OK if I want to employ tactics that involve me changing literally the entire front row to go from megaswap to Mari/Renko/others working more conventionally. And Keine's 9999 swaps certainly still won't be half bad.
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Momiji's looking at a baseline of 43 MP (18 base, +20 from Orbs/Gems, +5 from MP Boost) so she generally shouldn't be running out of MP with Rabies Bite, she can use it 14 times consecutively. Samidare Slash is kind of expensive at 6 MP, but it's a horrible spell card for damage, I would strongly recommend using Kogasa's Drizzling Large Raindrops or Nitori's Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall instead. Mystia's got a baseline of 53 MP (28 base, +20 from Orbs/Gems, +5 from MP Boost), so she's getting 10 uses out of Midnight Chorus Master. It's only a bit stronger than Rabies Bite under ideal circumstances, but it's not really the kind of attack you need to use 10 times in a boss fight. Things like exploiting the boss' weakness, Boost effects, anything you can use to boost the damage of each spell card also boosts MP efficiency, and that's important. You don't need to restore MP if you do so much damage so efficiently that the boss goes down before you run out of MP, and that's something you can realistically do. Trying to prepare for long-term combat actually ends up setting you up to more likely require it since you're doing less damage per MP spent by doing that. Like with Hexer Chen, doing that is sacrificing the ability to use Transcendent, Warrior, or the special subclass, so you're losing out on a lot of damage you could be doing and making it so that you're more likely to need MP restoration than you otherwise would.
But if you do find yourself wanting or needing MP restoration, Keine gives infinite MP for Instant Attack characters since the skill only cares if Keine's in the front, not if she's the one switching. So you can switch between two Instant Attack characters until they're both at full MP. Momiji and Chen would max out Accelerate doing this, Momiji would also max out her DEF/MND buff too. This destroys their other buffs though, so you'd need to buff them up again. Your frontline would look like Keine/Kogasa/x/IA user probably, Keine can handle ATK buffs and is decently effective at MT healing as an Enhancer, or maybe even go Herbalist with her. Kogasa is probably the best bet for Strategist since she isn't really doing anything besides sit and switch. Third slot would probably be another support character (healer, damage booster, etc) or another attacker. Since Kogasa should be busy switching the IA user, it's probably best to use a character that doesn't have Instant Attack as the secondary attacker, since you can't use the skill as effectively.
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This is not particularly related to the conversation at hand, but I thought I might give a bit of an overview of damage calculation to draw a picture of the importance of ATK/MAG buffs, and to provide a sort of foundation for others to try to calculate their own damage. The basic damage formula is basically
Damage = (Attack Power - T.Defense Power) * Multiplier * (100 / T.Affinity) * Random Number (any number between 0.9 and 1.1)
Think most people know what this stuff means so I'll skip more into a practical example of calculating an attack. I'll use Tenshi as an example (naturally), for her World Creation Press. For practical purposes, here's what her stats look like at the point of the game I'm at.
https://i.imgur.com/Dwo5acr.jpg
Subclass: Murakumo's Blessing
Main Equipment: Divine Sword Falchion (+20% damage when attacking elemental weaknesses, ~80 affinity)
Sub Equipment: Long Sword "Crimson Lotus Princess" x2, Scourge
So she has 400770 ATK.
Damage = (400770 - T.Defense Power) * Multiplier * (100 / T.Affinity) * Random Number
For the sake of ease of reading, I'll be assuming that T.Defense is 1m (1000000), T.Affinity is 100, and Random Number is 1.
World Creation Press is a (164% ATK - 50% T.DEF) * 164% spell card formula. With a level 5 spell card, the damage multiplier is further increased by 20%.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.64) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2) * 1 * 1
Damage = (657,262 - 500,000) * 1.968
Damage = 157,262 * 1.968
Damage = 309,491
The final Infinite Corridor boss has 84m HP, so this would take off 0.36% of its HP. That is scratch damage and would take 278 hits to defeat the boss. Thankfully, that is the minimum possible damage pretty much. Next, adding ATK buffs. The Enhancer subclass provides a 37% ATK/MAG buff. With the typical decay of 20%, this buff becomes 29% upon taking a turn. So let's assume a 29% ATK buff. With 400770 ATK, a 29% ATK buff is 516993 ATK, which is 116223 more ATK.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.29 * 1.64) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2) * 1 * 1
Damage = (847,869 - 500,000) * 1.968
Damage = 347,869 * 1.968
Damage = 684,606
This is 0.81% of 84m, and a 121% damage increase from having no ATK buff. So a 29% buff adds 121% more damage in this context. With a Strategist available, the decay rate of 14% would mean that Tenshi would have a buff of 31% on her instead of 29%. This is marginal, so I won't be calculating that. Instead, I'll calculate with a second Enhancer buff. With a 29% buff, the +37% buff puts the total buff to be 66%. With the 20% decay rate, the buff when Tenshi takes her turn will be 53%. A 53% ATK buff to 400770 ATK puts it at 613178, which is 212408 more ATK.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.53 * 1.64) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2) * 1 * 1
Damage = (1,005,612 - 500,000) * 1.968
Damage = 505,612 * 1.968
Damage = 995,044
This is 1.1% of 84m. Compared to having no ATK buff, the 53% ATK buff is a 221% damage increase. Compared to the 29% ATK buff, the 53% ATK buff is a 45% damage increase. As you can immediately tell, there is an enormous damage % dropoff at this buff level, but 45% is still an enormous increase. Skipping ahead a bit, let's assume Tenshi's has a 100% ATK buff and now takes a turn with 20% decay. She now has an 80% ATK buff. 400770 ATK with an 80% ATK buff becomes 721386 ATK, a 320616 ATK increase.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.8 * 1.64) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2) * 1 * 1
Damage = (1,183,073 - 500,000) * 1.968
Damage = 683,073 * 1.968
Damage = 1,344,287
This is 1.6% of 84m. Compared to having no ATK buff, the 80% ATK buff is a 334% damage increase. Compared to the 29% ATK buff, the 80% ATK buff is a 96% damage increase. Compared to the 53% ATK buff, the 80% ATK buff is a 35% damage increase.
Thus, you can see how there's a diminishing return on further stacking ATK here. Next, let's try stacking % boosting skills. First, let's start with adding a Strategist to the frontline. Furious Scheme increases damage by 10%. Very simple. Inspirational Plan also cuts down buff decay rate from 20% to 14%, so a 100% buff goes from 80% to 86%, so that should be taken into account here as well.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.86 * 1.64) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1) * 1 * 1
Damage = (1,222,508 - 500,000) * 2.1648
Damage = 722,508 * 2.1648
Damage = 1,564,085
This is 1.8% of 84m. Compared to the 80% ATK buff, adding a Strategist increased damage by 16% (the additional 6% being from the higher ATK buff). Skipping some steps, adding an Herbalist's Herb of Awakening for a 36% damage boost results in
Damage = 722,508 * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36)
Damage = 722,508 * 2.944128
Damage = 2,127,156
This is 2.5% of 84m. With the current damage output, the boss would take 40 hits to defeat. Still pretty terrible, but there's still the Murakumo's Blessing multiplier. Three Swords of the Divine Era grants a 16% damage boost for every character that can spend MP on the subclass holder's attack. In total, 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 = 56% more damage.
Damage = 722,508 * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16)
Damage = 722,508 * 4.595477618688
Damage = 3,320,269
This is now 3.9% of 84m, which would take 26 hits to defeat the boss. Now, we're starting to run out of the universal damage boosts, so let's look at character specific things. Tenshi has Girl of Bhava-agra, which is a 40% ATK boost if Iku is at the front.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.86 * 1.64 * 1.4) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16) * 1 * 1
Damage = (1,711,512 - 500,000) * 4.595477618688
Damage = 1,211,512 * 4.595477618688
Damage = 5,567,476
This is now 6.6% of 84m (and a 67% [wtf so high] damage increase), which would take 16 hits to defeat the boss. This is now a somewhat manageable fight, but the damage can still be further improved. Next, adding Courageous Sword's buff. It's a bit impractical to assume that Tenshi also has her DEF/MND at 86% when her ATK is at 86%. Instead, since Tenshi starts out with 33% ATK/DEF buffs with Enduring Celestial, let's assume that. 33% + 33% / 5 = 13% more ATK.
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.86 * 1.64 * 1.4 * 1.13) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16) * 1 * 1
Damage = (1,934,008 - 500,000) * 4.595477618688
Damage = 1,434,008 * 4.595477618688
Damage = 6,589,951
This is now 7.8% of 84m, and an 18% damage increase. At this point, the boss takes 13 hits to defeat. The last thing Tenshi has that can boost her damage is Keystones of Spirit, which requires striking weakness, so skipping that for now. 13 hits is pretty reasonable, but it can still be further reduced. The last important boost that isn't reliant on the boss' weaknesses or race is the elemental damage boosting skill. Suwako is not realistically going to be on the frontline, but this is just for damage calculation purposes. Froggy Power! gives a +30% boost to NTR element attacks.
Damage = 1,434,008 * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.3)
Damage = 1,434,008 * 5.9741209042944
Damage = 8,566,937
This is now 10.1% of 84m, and a 10HKO on the boss, all the way down from the original, buffless 278HKO. This is a pretty satisfactory and practical amount of damage to aim for. The Herbalist's 36% Boost can be switched out for Akyuu's +50% Boost, and Miko and/or Maribel can further add to the damage with their Awakening skills, but a 10HKO is good.
For an attack that isn't even hitting weakness.
Damage = 1,434,008 * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.36 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.3) * (100 / 60)
Damage = 1,434,008 * 5.9741209042944 * 1.667
Damage = 14,281,084
17% of 84m, a 6HKO. This is on a 60 affinity, which most bosses have. Of the Infinite Corridor bosses for example, only 2/10 of them do not have a 60 weakness (Abyss Marisa is probably 88 like her playable counterpart, Abyss Rinnosuke is 80 and counts as a weakness). For the maximum possible damage multiplier, adding Akyuu to the frontline so that it's Iku/Akyuu/Suwako/Tenshi (with one being a Strategist), replacing Herbalist's 36% Boost with Akyuu's, and adding her 16% weakness boost with the Divine Falchion's 20% weakness boost,
Damage = 1,434,008 * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.5 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.3 * 1.2) * (100 / 60)
Damage = 1,434,008 * 7.906924726272 * 1.667
Damage = 18,901,435
22.5% of 84m, a 5HKO. At this point, there isn't much reason to further attempt to maximize damage, but it's still yet possible by maxing out Tenshi's DEF/MND buff (a 34% ATK increase with 86% DEF/MND instead of 13% ATK with 33% DEF/MND), accounting for Keystones of Spirit (4% more ATK for every time she hits a weakness, for a maximum of 28%), and adding Maribel (with buffs, 12.5% more ATK) and Miko (8% stronger buffs, 86% buffs become 92% buffs like this) to the back. This maximum possible damage is
Damage = ((400,770 * 1.92 * 1.64 * 1.4 * 1.34 * 1.28 * 1.125) - (1,000,000 * 0.5)) * (1.64 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 1.5 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.3 * 1.2) * (100 / 60)
Damage = (3,409,067 - 500,000) * 7.906924726272 * 1.667
Damage = 2,909,607 * 7.906924726272 * 1.667
Damage = 38,351,074
45.6% of 84m, and a 3HKO. Never going to happen, but it's the theoretical maximum with these stats. It has no practicality and shouldn't be aimed for of course. Actually it can go even higher with a -50% DEF debuff but I'm done.
Anyway, the point of all of this was to give an idea of the exact value of damage buffs and the effect stacking them has, as well as to give a damage calculation model that's hopefully practical to duplicate (I'd recommend using a spreadsheet or something instead of manually calculating it though). With good stacking you can generally down a boss in 5-10 hits. In practice it'll always take more than the theoretical amount since it takes time to get all your buffs active and you'll usually not have them all maxed out (stat buff decay is the main reason for this), but it's a fairly decent target to aim for I think. Hope the whole thing was easy to understand, sorry if it was a hassle!
Tl;dr: A 50% buff is like double damage from no buff, BUFF ATTACKERS A LOT
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Momiji's looking at a baseline of 43 MP (18 base, +20 from Orbs/Gems, +5 from MP Boost) so she generally shouldn't be running out of MP with Rabies Bite, she can use it 14 times consecutively. Samidare Slash is kind of expensive at 6 MP, but it's a horrible spell card for damage,
Haaaah. I'm really not looking at these things with massive postgame stat tweaking in mind I guess XD I'm thinking "Well, she'll have like, 24 mp, right...?" So, you have a really good point here, I probably don't need Keine after all. And, uh, the point where I'd be using Samidare Slash would be where it's hitting weakness and none of her other attacks would, at which case, yeah, it would definitely outdamage them by a good chunk :S It's formula isn't THAT crappy. Yeah, I could "use Kogasa's Raindrops", except that's like saying I'll use Byakuren's attacks when she's a core party buffer- also, Raindrops has a near-identical formula to Samidare Slash (if anything the extra def factor and her lower base atk makes it do LESS damage...), and Kogasa isn't maintaining permanent 100% buffs, so even with Warrior's boosts she really would barely outdamage Momiji's Samidare Slashes (Like, 15~25% more damage) even in a full offense build- not to mention she'd be dealing with 66% delay instead of 93% delay. See what I'm getting at? XD
Having Nitori's water boost out on the field in my free party slot(s) would certainly help out Momiji's Slashes on cold weak bosses, though c:
Kogasa was initially planned to take Healer until Dragon God
opens up, both of which would help her mostly take over on healing (and then help buffing woo!!) the party (although I'd still need -someone-, e.g. Rumia for if my entire front row gets blasted for most of their HP or I lose Kogasa- Rumia works well because she still does appreciable damage apart from heals and helps on megadef bosses a little), but Strategist is on my mind as well, yeah.
While I of course try and keep my frontliners at like 60%+ buffs once the fight is roaring, that long talk about minmaxing buffs sure does drive in a point @.@; The thing about this strat is it involves heavy attack chaingunning- it'd take a lot to keep special buffs like elementalist or boost up on characters attacking every 700 ATB. (That being said, I love herbalist and will prolly have it on someone! Anyone hitting weakness is worth Boosting when I can!) On the upside, they're blasting out 4~5 attacks in the time it takes for most people to recover from a SINGLE low-ish delay attack; even if they do literally half the damage per hit, the DPS is still well higher- even after accounting for it taking all of Kogasa's turns. S'why I had MP on the mind, heheh. That being said, I should keep in mind mega-buff-maxing for my other more typical characters like Nitori and Miko- especially as if, say, the boss is weak to Physical, I'll eventually have a significant amount of Nitori's team bonus people to set up stupid strong 3D scopes. Such high delay attacks are also easy to manage when I've got Kogasa on swap duty, when she's -not- micromanaging the IAs (during which I'd be using more acceptable delay attacks).
Or Miko with both Parsee and Sanae out and some minmaxing done on her maintenance'd stats... >.> Speaking of that, someone said they didn't know how it would scale- in this game, unlike LoT1, equipment stat modifications come significantly later in the status formula, so their boosts should remain quite high, unlike LoT1 where before long you were maxing out affinities and resistances instead because the stat difference was getting almost negligible. If anything, I feel like those characters would only get progressively sillier as the equipment gets crazier and you get more power to raise their initially low base stats.
...and, yeah, +40% Atk makes Tenshi solid to start with (she's got great formulas!), but her awakening is really good. Makes me think about other minmaxable characters, like awakened Yuuka using her guaranteed Extra attack with Master Spark or Start of Heavenly Demise, which is a bit more reuseable than Marisa's meganuke. >_> Although even then, if we're talking about minmaxing, the likes of Keine can get so much more MAG than Yuuka she could realistically outdamage her Heavenly Demise outside of lucky extra attack rolls... (She'd need to set up her history accumulation though, and wouldn't selfsustain buffs as easily, so Yuuka would be better.)
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Well, I agree that at first sight LoT1 Marisa and LoT2 Marisa look pretty much the same, but that's less true than you may think. LoT2 Marisa, in fact, has some key perks LoT1 Marisa sorely lacks:
1) LoT1 Marisa's damage formulas, besides Master Spark, are embarassingly low (compared, say, to Yuyuko or Mystia). LoT2 Marisa, on the contrary, actually hits decently hard with her Asteroid Belt.
2) LoT1 Marisa has no means of overcoming MYS resistant enemies. LoT2 Marisa, on the other hand, has Sheer Force. While this is not really helpful vs bosses (even if a Boss resists MYS, you'd rather hit it on its weakness), it still makes Marisa an excellent random encounter cleaner.
3) LoT1's endgame had a higher emphasis on single-target encounters. Once you reach 30F, both the random encounters and the remaining bosses are vs 1 enemy only, making single-target nukes like Nitori clearly superior (even considering Master Spark, Yuuka is remarkably better at this given her superior bulk). LoT2's endgame, on the other hand, seems to feature a lot more traditional multi-target encounters, which makes an AoE cleaner like Marisa surprisingly better.
I still don't know if I want to include Marisa in my final lineup, though that has more to do with me being (1) disappointed more in Alice, rather than Marisa, and (2) more interested in other excellent AoE options (unlike in LoT1, there're a plethora of good AoE nukes to choose from)
All of those points you brought up doesn't actually help Marisa's case. I would still use her exactly as I did in LoT1 which was trash clearing and Master Spark nuking. Except as you said, there's plenty of other good AoE options and I already talked about how she's dead weight to me if she isn't able to Master Spark nuke. I don't really plan a party with trash clearing in mind though, especially since what I have already deals with trash effectively enough.
Hm, well, if you don't want to use a character for a nonstandard role, then I guess that's that. It seems wasteful when they're actually good at it, but OK.
It's not really about how viable "non-standard" builds are here. It's about the fact that I built them this way for a reason. If I wanted Sanae to be a nuker, I'd build her that way. I'm not about to fundamentally change how I've used Sanae for the entirety of the main game, for a "silly" reason like "lacking a CLD nuke". I'd rather work around that limitation, than handle it by messing with Sanae.
I'm looking primarily at finding ways to trivialize the game the most, so idk if that kind of thing is what you'd want to go for in the first place.
Yup, I already suspected a fundamental ideology difference but your massive damage calculation post further emphasized it. I'll try expressing my thoughts though: I want to optimize to a certain extent but not to the point where things are trivial. I want to be going into bosses thinking "Man I get to have a long, hard slog of a fight" rather than "How can I best one shot or otherwise trivialize this fight?". Yes there will be bosses where I'm forced to employ a different strategy or damage race it. But that's fine because I'm going through the fight on their terms rather than mine.
This is now 10.1% of 84m, and a 10HKO on the boss, all the way down from the original, buffless 278HKO. This is a pretty satisfactory and practical amount of damage to aim for. The Herbalist's 36% Boost can be switched out for Akyuu's +50% Boost, and Miko and/or Maribel can further add to the damage with their Awakening skills, but a 10HKO is good.
For an attack that isn't even hitting weakness.
I'm 100% okay with taking 278 hits to defeat the FINAL boss of the infinite corridor. I'm also NOT okay with a 10HKO especially after considering how blistering fast turns will be in the endgame. I know its all theoretical and you even expressly mentioned that in practice, it'll take longer + more time to set up. But I just wouldn't be having fun playing like this.
I'm just going to echo something I said earlier:
Regardless, I'm not planning to make any changes to my lineup unless the Plus Disk characters really impress me in some way.
That DOES include Plus Disk only content like Awakenings and the like.
I just want to take the time to expressly point out that I have no animosity towards you or anyone that I've disagreed with thus far. I'm just a stubborn person that doesn't want change. I appreciate all the information though. Just thought I'd post this in case I came off unappreciative or anything of the sort.
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Just a random think which occurred to me: % bonuses to stats, such as kinship skills, other modifiers (ex: Kanako's Sky Creation, Remilia's Last Fortress, etc.)... are they additive or multiplicative? I'm wondering because, if they were additive, I'm wondering if Maribel's Vision Sharing would be stronger for character with naturally high stats (such as Yuuka or Kasen), rather than chars which depend on skills for their stats (such as T9 characters).
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Sky Creation boosts damage dealt, so it would be multiplicative. However, stuff that directly increases your stats themselves, well... it's a good question. However, as those skills are all character-specific, there's admittedly not a lot of cases where the bonuses will be large enough to provide a significant difference between the two.
For example, in an ideal situation with Team 9, that's 32% with 3 team members, and then 25% from a fully buffed Maribel in front with them- that's either 57% additive, or 165% multiplicative, which is proportionately a 5% difference in end stats. But in reality you're not likely to encounter situations at those "extreme" numbers for long- Mari will usually be either at more like 80% buffs or in the back, and 3 team ⑨+Mari is a highly dubious front row. So the stat difference will be notably less than 5%.
tl;dr, even in extreme examples, the difference is on the level of the innate random damage variance, so it'd be a drag to even try to test it.
EDIT:Okay, you could get proof of kinship to get 40% and 25%, but, that only takes it to 160% versus 170% instead of 157%/165%, a 6.25% proportionate difference. Awakened Mystia also gets like +30% off a silenced enemy, so you COULD get a more inflated number, but... (And then you'd have to account for whether the base stat increase itself is multiplicative or additive!)
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Had my PC's hard drive burn out, rip. Had a backup of LoT2 on a USB but apparently it was all the way back before I even started Plus Disk. 200 hours lost there. Gotta farm all those Gems again now...thought for sure I updated it when I finished everything...
lol I did update my backup, it was just a separate save folder. I thought I updated both the save folder I kept separate and the folder with everything in it. Nothing has actually been lost. Wonderful.
Anyway...
Haaaah. I'm really not looking at these things with massive postgame stat tweaking in mind I guess XD I'm thinking "Well, she'll have like, 24 mp, right...?" So, you have a really good point here, I probably don't need Keine after all. And, uh, the point where I'd be using Samidare Slash would be where it's hitting weakness and none of her other attacks would, at which case, yeah, it would definitely outdamage them by a good chunk :S It's formula isn't THAT crappy.
Subclass spells are a bit disadvantaged in any comparison where you can use Murakumo's Blessing, since that's a 56% damage boost to personal spell cards (and its own spell cards). To give an idea, Rabies Bite backed by Murakumo's Blessing would deal about 2% more damage than Samidare Slash on a 60 CLD weak target and Divine Falchion, provided that the target is PHY neutral. With Nitori's CLD boost, you can expect about 27% more damage than Rabies Bite with it though. Main reason I make such a big deal about targeting weakness is that I use both Satori and Akyuu for an additional 43% weakness damage. Tenshi's also got Keystones of Spirit giving her more reason to hit weakness.
Kogasa was initially planned to take Healer until Dragon God
opens up, both of which would help her mostly take over on healing (and then help buffing woo!!) the party (although I'd still need -someone-, e.g. Rumia for if my entire front row gets blasted for most of their HP or I lose Kogasa- Rumia works well because she still does appreciable damage apart from heals and helps on megadef bosses a little), but Strategist is on my mind as well, yeah.
Well, looking at Kogasa's healing, let's say you're fighting a boss with 1300 ATB and it uses something like Half Moon Slash (3600 delay) that puts your party to 50%. You can get 5 ticks of healing with 800+ ATB per tick (boss would be at 10,100 when its turn comes up). Without Healer, you're looking at a 40% heal for the party being at 90%. With Healer, the party will be at 100%. Half Moon Slash doesn't get reduced by a Strategist's damage reduction effect, but if an attack of the same delay did 50% of your party's HP and was reduced to 45% by the 10% damage reduction, you'd be looking at the party being reduced to 55% HP and getting to 95% HP after 5 ticks. Something to think about for Strategist's damage reduction.
As for the spoiler subclass, Dragon God's Power doesn't seem that great since it has no real offensive bonus. You get 4% more buffs per turn but that's hardly anything. The healing and damage reduction which stacks with Strategist's damage reduction does make it look very appealing for defensive purposes, but I'd go for something that offers more offensive potential.
Or Miko with both Parsee and Sanae out and some minmaxing done on her maintenance'd stats... >.> Speaking of that, someone said they didn't know how it would scale- in this game, unlike LoT1, equipment stat modifications come significantly later in the status formula, so their boosts should remain quite high, unlike LoT1 where before long you were maxing out affinities and resistances instead because the stat difference was getting almost negligible. If anything, I feel like those characters would only get progressively sillier as the equipment gets crazier and you get more power to raise their initially low base stats.
I'll keep that in mind about Maintenance then. Probably worrying about nothing for them. By the way, elemental damage boosting skills don't stack, so Miko can't double dip for her composite spell. I was able to test and confirm before my computer died that Miko's Tradition of Just Rewards will benefit from Sanae's SPI boost even if Miko is targeting a DRK weak target, which is pretty versatile. Too bad the only other composite in the game (at the moment, anyway) is WND + NTR, and WND's elemental boosting skill doesn't exist.
...and, yeah, +40% Atk makes Tenshi solid to start with (she's got great formulas!), but her awakening is really good. Makes me think about other minmaxable characters, like awakened Yuuka using her guaranteed Extra attack with Master Spark or Start of Heavenly Demise, which is a bit more reuseable than Marisa's meganuke. >_> Although even then, if we're talking about minmaxing, the likes of Keine can get so much more MAG than Yuuka she could realistically outdamage her Heavenly Demise outside of lucky extra attack rolls... (She'd need to set up her history accumulation though, and wouldn't selfsustain buffs as easily, so Yuuka would be better.)
Regarding Keine, I tested the damage on her History Accumulation and would say that it isn't worth going out of your way to acquire. Assuming you don't need to use Three Sacred Treasures - Sword to max her MAG out (such as having Iku use Thundercloud Stickleback and an Herbalist use Placebo Effect), you'll generally get more damage per turn by solely attacking with her than by stacking any amount of History Accumulation, at least over the course of 10 turns. I didn't bother testing further than that because 10 turns (of Tenshi's, anyway, and 2 were wasted turns due to Great Calamity) is how long I took to beat Serpent of Chaos. I assumed a frontline of Mokou, Akyuu, and Sanae (damage test was for Start of Heavenly Demise), if she has less MAG than maybe it'll be better for her, and you'll probably want to use Three Sacred Treasures - Sword once or even twice if you have two attackers.
But I wouldn't really say Keine is worth attacking with regardless, Mokou or not. Her damage is still inferior to most other characters.
It's not really about how viable "non-standard" builds are here. It's about the fact that I built them this way for a reason. If I wanted Sanae to be a nuker, I'd build her that way. I'm not about to fundamentally change how I've used Sanae for the entirety of the main game, for a "silly" reason like "lacking a CLD nuke". I'd rather work around that limitation, than handle it by messing with Sanae.
Yeah I guess that's fair enough. Would be silly to try to tell you how to play the game. You know best what you want to do with it.
I'm 100% okay with taking 278 hits to defeat the FINAL boss of the infinite corridor. I'm also NOT okay with a 10HKO especially after considering how blistering fast turns will be in the endgame. I know its all theoretical and you even expressly mentioned that in practice, it'll take longer + more time to set up. But I just wouldn't be having fun playing like this.
That's perfectly fair. It also reminded me that I neglected to consider detailing how many turns it would take to set up the buffs I mentioned, which would be pretty important for context. I'll cover that at a different time I think.
I'm pretty bad at balancing the idea of "optimized, but not too optimized", so I think simply providing information instead of saying "you should do x" would probably work better for you. I'll try doing that for the future.
I just want to take the time to expressly point out that I have no animosity towards you or anyone that I've disagreed with thus far. I'm just a stubborn person that doesn't want change. I appreciate all the information though. Just thought I'd post this in case I came off unappreciative or anything of the sort.
Not in the slightest, everything's good. Thanks for considering that. This place is the only one I post on anymore because everyone is pretty cool like that here. Pretty nice.
Just a random think which occurred to me: % bonuses to stats, such as kinship skills, other modifiers (ex: Kanako's Sky Creation, Remilia's Last Fortress, etc.)... are they additive or multiplicative?
Pretty sure they're multiplicative, but I haven't tested. I'll test it...eventually. Want to recover my lost progress first. It'll be easier with Tenshi's Awakening since I'll have Girl of Bhava-agra and Courageous Sword active to check.
Since I was mistaken about the lost progress, I'll try to check in-game. Currently getting an error when loading files, but it's probably just something missing on the new hard drive. Gonna try to figure out what's going wrong and then I'll get test results.
EDIT: OK so I did lose several hours of gameplay. On 42f of Infinite Corridor, level 460 Iku. Easy to make up for though, not upset about this. Would take a few hours of grinding to reach 540 again. So, testing.
Tested Tenshi's level 1 (forgot to level it) Sword of Hisou with Girl of Bhava-agra, Courageous Sword, Sanae's Power of the Living God, Murakumo's Blessing and Three Swords of the Divine Era, Strategist's Furious Scheme, and an 86% ATK/DEF/MND buff on 1f Nut Eaters for five hits. Tenshi's ATK was 276271.
Damage results were
5,942,750
5,959,497
5,312,204
5,546,566
5,892,589
Assuming the ATK buffs are multipliers, the expected damage range would be
Damage = ((276,271 * 1.28 * 1.86 * 1.4 * 1.34) - (40 * 0.5)) * (2 * 1.3 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.16 * 1.1) * (100 / 100) * Random Number (0.9-1.1)
Damage = (1,233,931 - 20) * 4.46416256 * 1 * (0.9-1.1)
Damage = 5,508379 * (0.9-1.1)
Damage = 4,957,541-6,059,216
Well that's pretty conclusive to me. ATK increasing skills should indeed be multiplicative.
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Thanks Lonely^^ Well... I guess this is where I finally realize Yuuka is not that good after all :-)
On another note... anyone has any experience with the Earth Palace team? i'm considering trying to fit them on my squad (though maybe only Utsuho/Orin/Koishi), as their stats and awakenings do sound pretty interesting (also, I sorely lack Fire-type offense right now). What are your thoughts on them?
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How useful are the members of the SDM? I had a keen interest in using them whenever I acquire them.
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Thanks Lonely^^ Well... I guess this is where I finally realize Yuuka is not that good after all :-)
On another note... anyone has any experience with the Earth Palace team? i'm considering trying to fit them on my squad (though maybe only Utsuho/Orin/Koishi), as their stats and awakenings do sound pretty interesting (also, I sorely lack Fire-type offense right now). What are your thoughts on them?
Well, I used Satori/Utsuho/Orin during the main game so I can't say much about Koishi or their performance in Plus Disc but I felt that Satori and Utsuho were a bit underwhelming.
Satori has high HP but no form of recovery which hampers her as tanky-support and she's not that great in an offensive role either since her copied spellcards are lv0 and her offensive stats are average, though you can bring Komachi/Suika along to abuse their spellcards I guess.
Utsuho got buffed in the Plus Disc update and she's much better that she was before. Both Giga Flare and Hell's Tomahawk were buffed, the first increases her usefulness in mob fights and the latter in boss fights; they also fixed Fighting Spirit so she's a bit less squishy. The main problem I had with her is that even though her damage is much better than before, she's still too squishy to stay out and gets sniped relatively easily thank to her somewhat skewered affinities (which is a problem when she's supposed to spam Hell's Tomahawk to build up Fighting Spirit, Overheat and the MND debuff). I'm assuming she'll be better in Plus Disc since you can fix her affinities and increase her HP to make her a bit bulkier and her awakening gives a large damage boost as well.
Rin was very good at cleaning mob fights with Former Hell's Needle Hill thanks to Extra Attack, Apparition Carrier and Enhanced Row Attack; she wasn't very useful against bosses because of their high defences though. She should still be pretty good for thrash clearing in Plus Disc and once you fix her average ATK stat she should do decent against bosses as well.
Also, on another note, I wonder why Koishi doesn't have the Earth's Spirit Palace Party skill.
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Uh... according to the wiki, Koishi does have the Earth Palace skill. As for Satori, I still don't know if I am going to use her, but if I am, I totally intend to abuse Proof of Kinship and place her in another lineup, where she can put her copying power to better use (for example, both of Renko's skills are very good choices for copying, as is just about any kind of heal). Still, putting her in the team just for a +8% stat for the other members sounds somewhat lame, so I am still considering using only Utsuho, Rin, and Koishi (for bosses, I can keep Rin in the back and again take advantage of Proof of Kinship, plus I have many other boss-oriented characters to use, so I could use more chars for random encounters).
On an unrelated note... it's amazing how Maribel turned Knowledge's Shadow from one of the most difficult Postgame battles in the game into a cakewalk, taking something like 4-5k damage from Ether Flare thanks to Ability to See Boundaries :-) Again, if you're not using the Sealing Club duo, I strongly suggest you give it a try.
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Before Plus, a huge portion of the cast suffers from hiiiigh boss defenses on almost everything after a certain point in the game, including Rin; her damage should be a lot more usable on bosses in postgame in general. Her awakening is also perfect, since it lets her ignore half of the enemy's defenses (So much for that low attack stat :D !) and wow you definitely can't complain about higher extra attack proc rate, just imagine the lucky runs where she'll get bunch of casts in a row.
Problem with Koishi is Earth Palace is like, her -only- damage boosting skill; and she also needs high evasion from her equipment to make most of her passives do anything... and enough durability to afford to take a hit, since she needs to try to evade things. So there's a high demand to satisfy before she can really blossom. Her awakening looks like it makes the evasion gimmick pretty dang sweet, though; take extra turns 2/3rds of the time you evade stuff? Plus stuff like the ring that irresistably debuffs enemies when you evade exists, etc.
Satori's a weird one to try to use postgame. Guess it depends if you have skills cool enough to be worth the effort to copy.
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Uh... according to the wiki, Koishi does have the Earth Palace skill. As for Satori, I still don't know if I am going to use her, but if I am, I totally intend to abuse Proof of Kinship and place her in another lineup, where she can put her copying power to better use (for example, both of Renko's skills are very good choices for copying, as is just about any kind of heal). Still, putting her in the team just for a +8% stat for the other members sounds somewhat lame, so I am still considering using only Utsuho, Rin, and Koishi (for bosses, I can keep Rin in the back and again take advantage of Proof of Kinship, plus I have many other boss-oriented characters to use, so I could use more chars for random encounters).
On an unrelated note... it's amazing how Maribel turned Knowledge's Shadow from one of the most difficult Postgame battles in the game into a cakewalk, taking something like 4-5k damage from Ether Flare thanks to Ability to See Boundaries :-) Again, if you're not using the Sealing Club duo, I strongly suggest you give it a try.
Oh yeah I meant to say that Koishi didn't have Proof of Kinship but I somehow got them mixed up.
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Thanks Lonely^^ Well... I guess this is where I finally realize Yuuka is not that good after all :-)
I'm not sure I would call Yuuka not that good, but I can't really say I've looked into her much. She seems good on paper though, but I'm not totally sure on how to calculate Extra Attack since it procs on itself. Ignoring that aspect of it, the repeated attack doesn't trigger Majesty, but does trigger Encounter with a Strong Foe. Majesty gives Yuuka a maximum buff of 92%, and Tormenting Nature gives her an interesting damage % increase (damage bonus is "Enemy HP % * 0.4", but doesn't work at 100% HP, 1% HP is 0.4% more damage, 50% is 20% more damage, 99% is 39.6% more damage). She's also got HP regeneration from Gensokyo's Eternal Flower (4% minimum) and Protection of Plants (8% and can overheal to 150%). So you're looking at 92% max buffs, let's say an average of 32% more damage from Extra Attack and 20% more damage from Tormenting Nature, and generally 8-12% HP regeneration, plus high base stats, especially in ATK/MAG. I can't run damage calculations because I can't check Yuuka's endgame stats though. It's possible to calculate them accurately without using the game, but there's a rounding issue that I'm a little unsure about. I did take the time to write down every character's level at Reimu 540 while doing a stat calculation side project, so I can confirm that Yuuka would be at level 497 at the point Reimu is at 540.
I'll set aside some time to write about calculating stats here. This info can also be found here: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Gameplay#Base_Stats_and_Stat_Formulas
This is kinda important, so putting it bolded: The actual formula for calculating level up bonuses is Level Bonus * 0.03, and not 0.04. This is probably a change in a game update or something, I tried calculating it as 0.04 but that was getting higher results than it should have. 0.03 was perfectly accurate though.
Starting with Yuuka's growth rates, she's looking at
HP: 15.2
ATK: 15.6
DEF: 9.2
MAG: 14
MND: 8
SPD: 7
Stat Orbs and 2 to each of these stats, Gems add 1 to each for a +3 bonus. In addition to this, maxed out stat boosts grant +2 to HP, +0.7 to SPD, and +1 to each other stat. Most characters can get two, sometimes more Second Boost skills at this level, so I'll assume HP Second Boost, ATK Second Boost (Yuuka's ATK is very respectable), and MAG Second Boost are learned. HP Second Boost is a +4 boost to HP, while ATK/MAG Second Boost are a +2 bonus to ATK/MAG. The last bonus is from subclasses. I'll assume Murakumo's Blessing, which is +1 to ATK/DEF/MAG/MND, and no bonus to HP/SPD.
So Yuuka's final growth rates would be
HP: 22.2 (15.2 + 3 + 4)
ATK: 21.6 (15.6 + 3 + 2 + 1)
DEF: 14.2 (9.2 + 3 + 1 + 1)
MAG: 20 (14 + 3 + 2 + 1)
MND: 13 (8 + 3 + 1 + 1)
SPD: 10.7 (7 + 3 + 0.7)
After that is calculating the base values. There's three formulas here. One's for HP, one's for SPD, and one's for the other stats, ATK/DEF/MAG/MND.
HP: (Level + 6) * Growth Rate + 10
ATK/DEF/MAG/MND: (Level + 4) * Growth Rate + 4
SPD: (Level + 10) * (Growth Rate / 32)
So for Yuuka with the aforementioned base stats, it looks like
HP: (497 + 6) * 22.2 + 10
ATK: (497 + 4) * 21.6 + 4
DEF: (497 + 4) * 14.2 + 4
MAG: (497 + 4) * 20 + 4
MND: (497 + 4) * 13 + 4
SPD: (497 + 10) * (10.7 / 32)
HP: 11,176
ATK: 10,825
DEF: 7,118
MAG: 10,024
MND: 6,517
SPD: 169
Decimals are cut off here. There is no rounding up either.
After this is calculating the stat multiplier. This is where equipment, level bonuses, and library stat level ups go.
Multiplier = 1 + Equipment Bonuses + (Level Bonuses * 0.03) + (Stat Level * 0.02)
For equipment, something like a 100% stat bonus would be rendered as a 1 here. A 412% stat bonus would be 4.12, etc. I'll assume that all 496 of Yuuka's level bonuses go toward MAG. This'll be a 496 * 0.03 = 14.88 multiplier. I'll assume 600 library levels for every stat, so 600 * 0.02 = 12 multiplier. Let's assume 3x Machine God Lucifer for the equipment bonus, which would be a 6.66 * 3 = 19.98 multiplier. So it's looking like
MAG: 1 + 19.98 + 14.88 + 12 = 47.86
HP/ATK/DEF/MND/SPD: 1 + 19.98 + 12 = 32.98
After calculating that, the final stat formulas are
HP/ATK/DEF/MAG/MND: Base Value * Multiplier
SPD: (Base Value * Multiplier) + 100
So the final stats are
HP: 11,176 * 32.98 = 368,584
ATK: 10,825 * 32.98 = 357,008
DEF: 7,118 * 32.98 = 234,751
MAG: 10,024 * 47.86 = 479,748
MND: 6,517 * 32.98 = 214,930
SPD: (169 * 32.98) + 100 = 5,673
Now comes the big question: Is this accurate? Since I can't just post a picture of her stats proving these calculations are 100% accurate, I'll use the one I took of Tenshi's earlier for the damage calculation.
https://i.imgur.com/Dwo5acr.jpg
HP: 256,706
ATK: 400,770
DEF: 153,238
MAG: 16,384
MND: 115,804
SPD: 3,020
So, Tenshi's growth rates here are all stat boosts (except MAG), with HP/ATK Second Boost, as well as Seven Celestial Peaches (+4.9 to HP), Murakumo's Blessing, and maxed stat Gems/Orbs (except MAG). This puts her growth rates at
HP: 10.8 + 3 + 4 + 4.9 = 22.7
ATK: 10.8 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 16.8
DEF: 12 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 17
MAG: 5.2 + 1 = 6.2
MND: 11.8 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 16.8
SPD: 6.6 + 3 + 0.7 = 10.3
Base values are
HP: (526 + 6) * 22.7 + 10 = 12,086
ATK: (526 + 4) * 16.8 + 4 = 8,908
DEF: (526 + 4) * 17 + 4 = 9,014
MAG: (526 + 4) * 6.2 + 4 = 3,290
MND: (526 + 4) * 16.8 + 4 = 8,908
SPD: (526 + 10) * (10.3 / 32) = 172
Equipment multipliers for 2x Crimson Lotus Princess + Scourge are
HP: 4.12 + 4.12 = 8.24
ATK: 4.12 + 4.12 + 8 = 16.24
DEF: 4
MAG: 1.99 + 1.99 = 3.98
MND: 0
SPD: 1.99 + 1.99 = 3.98
600 (12) library level to all stats except MAG, and 525 (15.75) level bonus to ATK. Final multipliers are
HP: 1 + 8.24 + 12 = 21.24
ATK: 1 + 16.24 + 15.75 + 12 = 44.99
DEF: 1 + 4 + 12 = 17
MAG: 1 + 3.98 = 4.98
MND: 1 + 12 = 13
SPD: 1 + 3.98 + 12 = 16.98
Final stats are
HP: 12,041 * 21.24 = 256,706
ATK: 8,908 * 44.99 = 400,770
DEF: 9,014 * 17 = 153,238
MAG: 3,290 * 4.98 = 16,384
MND: 8,908 * 13 = 115,804
SPD: (172 * 16.98) + 100 = 3,020
This is a perfect match, so Yuuka's stats should be as they were calculated to be in-game as well. This also demonstrates how you can accurately calculate any character's stats provided you know what kind of levels, library levels, equipment, stat boosts, and so on you're going to have on them. So you can compare with any character.
On another note... anyone has any experience with the Earth Palace team? i'm considering trying to fit them on my squad (though maybe only Utsuho/Orin/Koishi), as their stats and awakenings do sound pretty interesting (also, I sorely lack Fire-type offense right now). What are your thoughts on them?
I've only used Satori of them, but I thought she was good. She's a little bit less tanky than Momiji (having slightly more HP but also almost half the DEF/MND), but besides her and Miko she's the tankiest character in my party composition. The 24% weakness damage bonus is extremely versatile, though there isn't a whole lot to really do with Spell Card Recollection. I've had her copy things like Miracle Fruit and Demarcation, but otherwise mostly just subclass stuff like Placebo Effect. Her damage doesn't seem horrible since she can get a personal 36% weakness damage bonus from her Awakening, which is either a 60% damage bonus or a 68% one. One thing I do want to say is that even though Narrow Confines of Avici has one of the strongest personal spell card formulas without a drawback, it's still weaker than Start of Heavenly Demise (Heavenly Demise is about 6% stronger), since Satori can level that to 5 compared to Avici being a level 0 spell card. Avici does have the advantage of debuffing all stats though, and MND debuffs would help it do more damage. Just mentioning Start of Heavenly Demise as a comparison. I compiled all the spell cards in the game for a damage comparison if you wanna look at that, but I'd have to clean it up a lot to make it more user friendly and do some additional calculations to account for things like no access to Murakumo's Blessing (if another character is using it) and such.
As for FIR damage, Explosive Flame Sword should probably be good enough to say you've got it covered, I think. Certainly no objections here with Tenshi. World Creation Press does only about 9% more damage under equal circumstances (Murakumo's Blessing makes it 70% stronger though). On a 60 FIR weak target with Divine Falchion and maxed Keystones of Spirit, Explosive Flame Sword should do about 58% more damage even with Murakumo's Blessing in play, and that's without Satori, Akyuu, or Utsuho/Mokou for FIR boosts. Only thing is the lowered ACC, but equipping something like Long Sword "Ringil" (+360% ATK, +560% SPD, +32 ACC, among other bonuses) covers ACC just fine.
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So gonna list the character levels at Reimu 540, what I did to get these levels was to level down all characters to 1, count how much EXP it took to level Reimu to 540, and then give the same amount of EXP to every other character. Proportionately speaking, character levels generally remain the same, but not generally enough that I'd make assumptions about level 2000 or something.
So, character levels at Reimu 540 are
582: Chen
569: Cirno
554: Minoriko
552: Mystia, Renko
549: Tokiko
547: Kogasa
543: Hina
540: Reimu, Rumia, Wriggle, Meiling, Akyuu
538: Nitori
534: Parsee
528: Rinnosuke, Reisen
525: Momiji
523: Kokoro
522: Rin, Iku, Maribel
520: Sanae
518: Keine, Alice
517: Futo
515: Marisa, Youmu, Aya, Nazrin, Sakuya, Eiki
512: Mokou, Kasen, Eirin
509: Tenshi
506: Shou
503: Komachi, Yuugi, Yuyuko
497: Ran, Yuuka, Yukari, Mamizou
494: Satori
492: Suika, Remilia, Kanako, Suwako, Flandre
490: Byakuren
489: Utsuho, Koishi
487: Kaguya, Patchouli
479: Miko
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I believe that for the damage increase of Extra Attack you can calculate it as 0.32+0.322+0.323...+0.32n which eventually rounds up at about 0.47 (so a 47% damage increase on average), I'm not sure if the guaranteed Extra Attack from Dangerous Paradise can procc on itself though.
If I'm not wrong and we assume Rin's Erratic Steps increases Extra Attacks activation rate by 16%, it would equal about a 92% increase in damage in her case.
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Just got started with B1F... and wow, I'm loving it already^^ The random encounters are nearly impossible at my lvl (180-200) unless I use the Moriya team + Reimu, but at the same time there are not many "no-sell" enemies like in 8F-16F extra floors. The bosses I faced so far also felt much less unfair than, say, Great C or Matagama of Darkness. Incidentally, I'd like to ask... what's the condition for opening that rock on B1F which covers that lvl 200+ boss? I read it asks for 16... something. I think.
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Geez, Chen is over a hundred levels ahead of Miko. That's something else for the Instant Attacker debate: Chen gets way more skill points then any other character, meaning that she benefits more from the improved boost tomes/Awakenings.
She's also tied for the second highest HP recovery rate. This, combined with her very quick speed, means that Chen can very quickly recover from damage while in the back line.
Just got started with B1F... and wow, I'm loving it already^^ The random encounters are nearly impossible at my lvl (180-200) unless I use the Moriya team + Reimu, but at the same time there are not many "no-sell" enemies like in 8F-16F extra floors. The bosses I faced so far also felt much less unfair than, say, Great C or Matagama of Darkness. Incidentally, I'd like to ask... what's the condition for opening that rock on B1F which covers that lvl 200+ boss? I read it asks for 16... something. I think.
Whenever a rock asks for a number of something, it's asking for the number of Black Fragments you have. You get one black fragment for each Shadow boss you defeat, more or less[I can't remember whether you get two from Shadow Kasen]. There are a maximum of 56 Black Fragments, one for each playable character. There's a translation patchhere (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15439.msg1354086.html#msg1354086). Although it is still incomplete, it does have items fully translated, which is extremely helpful for determining how many Black Fragments you have.
As far as the random encounters go, they tend to be fairly brutal, at least at first. Something you may not notice at first is that some enemies are much[~100 levels] stronger then the rest of the enemies and they constitute the biggest threat and need to be prioritised. Strong fire or spirit attacks work well for the first few basement floors[Chen practically soloed most enemy encounters in my play-through].
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I believe that for the damage increase of Extra Attack you can calculate it as 0.32+0.322+0.323...+0.32n which eventually rounds up at about 0.47 (so a 47% damage increase on average), I'm not sure if the guaranteed Extra Attack from Dangerous Paradise can procc on itself though.
If I'm not wrong and we assume Rin's Erratic Steps increases Extra Attacks activation rate by 16%, it would equal about a 92% increase in damage in her case.
Hmmm, 47% then, that's pretty good. Do you (or anyone else) know if Extra Attack consumes Boost turns, suffer buff decay, or anything like that? I'm assuming not, since I do know that positive per turn effects like Yuuka's Majesty don't activate due to Extra Attack, but wanna make sure about that. If it does consume Boost, that's a pretty serious damage loss past two attacks in a row.
Just got started with B1F... and wow, I'm loving it already^^ The random encounters are nearly impossible at my lvl (180-200) unless I use the Moriya team + Reimu, but at the same time there are not many "no-sell" enemies like in 8F-16F extra floors. The bosses I faced so far also felt much less unfair than, say, Great C or Matagama of Darkness. Incidentally, I'd like to ask... what's the condition for opening that rock on B1F which covers that lvl 200+ boss? I read it asks for 16... something. I think.
Are you buffing your attackers? That's about the point where I found buffing to be a necessity for random encounters. Might help a lot, but the skeletal demons (at least for MND) and the higher leveled enemies are still very tanky at this point in the game. With more levels and better equipment the whole thing becomes a bit more manageable.
Regarding the item locked rock, as was already answered, it requires the Black Fragments that are acquired with each Shadow boss kill. There's four optional bosses locked behind these rocks, but only the one you're describing is at a level you can reasonably fight before beating the final boss. You won't be getting 16 until you reach B5f, which is the level 215-236 range. Some of the floors are also locked behind these rocks so you can't proceed until you defeat every Shadow boss up until that point as well, if you get roadblocked by anything.
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Just out of curiosity... I read on the wiki that, on the Endless Corridor, you can't go back to floors which you cleared already. Assuming you can't go past 100F as I remember, does this mean there's a limit to how many infinity gems and greater awakenings you can get?
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Right now, I believe you can only get 7 greater awakenings (as these items are only granted when you defeat a corridor boss, I think?) However, the last floor should loop infinitely iirc, as far as stuff like infinity gems go. If the game is ever updated again it'll go to 999f, though.
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9F Tenshi is not very fun, I've checked the wiki for some strategy ideas but even with afflicting HVY and SIL and debuffing like crazy i still feel like I have very little leeway in who can actually attack her for somewhat decent damage.
I managed to get a 3k Phoenix Spread Wings with Chen on her on my last attempt but nothing else I've attacked with has come close. Rumia and Okuu don't do enough damage with their defense ignoring attacks either. I'm kind of considering just grinding up and megaboosting attack stats on star hitters, maybe I can even boost Chen more and rack up damage that way. Her MP flows really well at the moment so she's not running out too much too easily.
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Just out of curiosity... I read on the wiki that, on the Endless Corridor, you can't go back to floors which you cleared already. Assuming you can't go past 100F as I remember, does this mean there's a limit to how many infinity gems and greater awakenings you can get?
Yeah. As Serela said, 7 Great Awakening items (that you can trade, you get a freebie from Akyuu after your first one, you can't trade away the last one you own). You can leave and re-enter the same floor to farm it so there's an infinite supply of Infinite Gems even before you hit the 101f, which is the last floor that can be reached in the current update. You get more Infinite Gems from treasure the later on in the Infinite Corridor you're at though.
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9F Tenshi is not very fun, I've checked the wiki for some strategy ideas but even with afflicting HVY and SIL and debuffing like crazy i still feel like I have very little leeway in who can actually attack her for somewhat decent damage.
Sub Monk with your highest ATK characters and max Iron Mountain- it ignores more def the higher it's leveled, and 9F Tenshi doesn't resist NTR anymore. Also, if I recall, her attack set is pretty much exclusively physical, so focusing DEF on your support characters and capitalizing on attackers with good def is helpful (although obviously, it won't help if you can't hurt her much). You might consider swapping a useless attacker out for a def-focused Wriggle with minimal stat investment to poison, just for this one fight.
Also, her concentrate nuke is fairly inaccurate, iirc. Characters with fairly good evasion should somewhat reliably dodge it.
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Oh that worked wonderfully, I even lost Chen halfway through that leaving me with only a Mokou to attack with (as well as Okuu/Rumia) but I still managed to pull through, thank you :)
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Well, good to know. Also, good that some of the characters I plan to use don't exactly need to be awakened.
As a side note... wow. I was struggling mightily both on floor B5F and 21F, until I replaced Byakuren, Iku and Tenshi with the Yakumo Family. That's a group I already had good experiences with in previous games before Plus Disk, but damn, it really feels like it's back with a vengeance^^ encounters which seemed nearly insurmountable suddenly became farmable lol.
EDIT: Also, I can't seem to find Treasure Chest Keys anymore on the floors, but I keep finding Treasure Chests. Does it mean that I need to buy keys with Infinity Gems, or something?
EDIT2: Faced T9 team
on B5F... I thought I was a goner when I was left with Renko and Maribel against Shadow Wriggle and Shadow Cirno
... instead they managed to take next to no damage from all attacks while Maribel alternated tanking and healing - oh, and I oneshotted Cirno with DTH Chaotic Quadruple Barrier. Heh
. I may have said it before but... I love Ability to See Boundaries.
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Since this topic is coming close to the post limit, I'm going to take the liberty of making the next one, if that's all right by everyone.
Edit: It is done. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21095.0.html)