Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ～ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released

[HalfGrand]

What is with all this talk about everybody hoping that we will see Sagume, Clownpiece, Junko and Hecatia again? There have been plenty of instances of characters that have appeared once and then we never hear of them again.

Cripes, When PoFV was released centuries ago where people all over the internet coming together and hoping that they will see Medicine Melancholy again in a future game?  :smug:

Don't hold your breath guys. ZUN has confirmed in many interviews that he likes to create new characters as a reason to create more bullet patterns that are unique to that character. It's not unreasonable that he simply creates characters for a game and then forgets them (I still remember someone mentioned Hina to ZUN once and he trollishly went "Hina? Who's that?").

To all you Reisen and Mokou fans, you got lucky with the last 2 games but it is simply unreasonable for ZUN to represent a balance of all those characters that he creates unless he cranks out 10 or more games a year or something like that. Unless ZUN decides to create another "Shoot the bullet" or "Impossible Spell Card" variant between Touhou 15 and 16 that brings a cross section of the latest characters in the game as danmaku casters, you might have to settle on cameo appearances in official print works.

Don't worry though, fan doujin works of Junko x Hecatia hentai have got you covered 

[Tengukami]

I think this is an example of the difference between "hope" and "expectation". People might hope to see Clownpiece, Hecatia et al, but I doubt anyone sincerely expects it to happen.

[Soul Devour]

Well you're wrong. The change start with DS. TD uses a lot of unusual bullets sprites, so I don't really know about it; not to mention I don't play it, but DDC also has those hitboxes LoLK has. Its understandable that you wouldn't know because nobody plays DS, but DS hitboxes are massive.
I can't speak for the collision thing Drake talks about, that may be another factor, but as far as hitboxes itself go, LoLK isn't anything new.

Man, I'd like to think Jaimers knows what he's talking about, since he's only one of the best Touhou players out there. I would hope he had a completely concrete knowledge of prior game's hitboxes and would notice any changes made in future games.

[TresserT]

I think this is an example of the difference between "hope" and "expectation". People might hope to see Clownpiece, Hecatia et al, but I doubt anyone sincerely expects it to happen.

I'm "expecting" to see some of these characters again, at least once. Since MoF, every game has had at least one character with multiple appearances. Sanae became a main player character, with her, Suwako, and Kanako all being important to the plot of future games. Nitori, Suwako, Utsuho, Koishi, Unzan, Byakuren, Futo, Miko, Mamizou, and Sukuna all became playable in fighters. Seija got her own game, and a bunch of the characters showed up in the manga.

I don't think anyone's expecting to see them as bosses in a main game, or playble characters, or getting their own spinoff, but I'd be really surprised if these characters never showed up again.

And besides that, Hina and Medicine were both pretty unimportant to the plot of their games, and unimportant as a whole in the grand scheme of things. Clownpiece is not really noteable, but Kishin, Junko, and Hecatia certainly are AMERICA.

Edit: fixed

[Kilgamayan]

Clownpiece isn't really noteable

You shut your Communist mouth.

[Tiamat]

I imagine most people, when saying they hope to see a character again, mean within ANY official Touhou media, not just the games.  I could be wrong, though, but for the most part, that's a lot more realistic expectation.  Even Hina got her own news article in SoPM, for example and Medicine got a BAiJR one. (poor Yuuka meanwhile took forever just to get a cameo appearance in the mangas when everyone else got cameos in the mangas all over the place)

Hecatia and Junko, surprisingly (for me, since I figured at least Junko's creation was mostly just for LoLK and nothing else since she purified all other aspects out), are practically guaranteed a reappearance somewhere.

Spoiler:

All four extra stages ended with the cliffhanger of them going to meet Eirin (and as revealed in Reisen's extra, Eirin wanting to meet them), as well as them looking forward to Gensokyo in general.

Of course, it should go without saying that Clownpiece can go wherever Hecatia goes at the very least, if not more.

[Tengukami]

I imagine most people, when saying they hope to see a character again, mean within ANY official Touhou media, not just the games. 

Yeah that would certainly include me. I just tend to temper my expectations wrt ZUN and character re-appearances, saving the obvious. Mostly because my enjoyment of the story nudges my judgement in terms of who I consider "likely" to re-appear. My track record with that has not been good. I find ZUN unpredictable with this, but maybe I'm not getting his patterns for this, where they exist.

[kevin1127]

Almost all of the characters (not include those from print works) are guaranteed to be in something similar to PMiSS or SoPm, in which Akyuu is going to introduce these characters in her view. This is what I'm expecting.
And I'm also expecting, although this is less plausible, them to be appear in future non-whole-number danmaku game (something like th9.5, 12.5, and 14.3) (I say this is less plausible because it's hard to put character like Kishin into this kind of game and Soga is one of the example who did not appear in the future game).
BTW, some of the characters are going to be in Aya's or Hatete's newpaper, also an expectation.

What I'm hoping is these characters can appear in future manga or other print works.

[Reu]

I fully expect some of these characters to make appearances in print works, spinoffs and manga.

Call me delusional or whatever but there's no way these characters are going to get ignored like Medicine and Hina, they have far more relevance and plot around them.

[Valar]

I imagine they will appear in ZUN's next manga (which is almost confirmed), or WaHH. Don't see them in FS though.

[Sakurei]

Man, I'd like to think Jaimers knows what he's talking about, since he's only one of the best Touhou players out there. I would hope he had a completely concrete knowledge of prior game's hitboxes and would notice any changes made in future games.

I don't consider Jaimers neither one of the best Touhou players out there nor do I even think he's a touhou player. Jaimers treats the touhou series like any other shmups there is, and therefore doesn't indulge too deeply into any of the games. Don't misunderstand, though: he's very good. Very good at shmups, but his knowledge of the touhou games is shallow and doesn't go much beyond how to dodge most patterns, I imagine. Intricacies of the games are most likely lost on him due to little playtime. And the familiarity of hitboxes is something that you don't learn by doing day 3 LNBs like him. He's definitely a good player, but that's why it's important to correct his mistakes, seeing how people would believe him without second thought.

[CyberAngel]

[...]since I figured at least Junko's creation was mostly just for LoLK and nothing else since she purified all other aspects out[...]

Intentional or not, this is so deliciously meta it's funny by itself.

That said, when looked at meta level, we have someone with inverted personality and inversion powers, and now someone with purified personality and purification powers. A new pattern? If so, what could be next?

[RaiTo]

Am I the only one who finds Clownpiece attractive? I mean she, along with everyone from LoLK, have AMAZING ARTWORK. Are you guys sure ZUN was drunk when he did this game???

[Channy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1_9TrcfH9E
Imperfect stage 6 but perfect Junko clear!

[PK]

And besides that, Hina and Medicine were both pretty unimportant to the plot of their games, and unimportant as a whole in the grand scheme of things.

Cirno isn't any more important than the other stage 1-2 bosses (with Yuyuko, Nazrin, and Seiran actually being involved in the plots), yet she is one of the most frequent characters in the series. Mystia was playable in PoFV too.
I'd say ZUN goes with whatever he wants, especially if the characters aren't important for the plot. We had Cirno, Wakasagi and Kyouko in ISC, but it could have been Alice, Rumia and Kogasa, and there would have been no difference anyway.
The only thing i can think of is that older characters might appear if their typical locations are in the games, like Yuyuko in TD becuse of divine spirits being mistaken for ghosts, or Cirno in DDC because of the Misty Lake.

[Plubio]

Can't believe this is real.

Like, wow. No misses and only one bomb used.
So Junko's not impossible to perfect at all ? at first doesn't look like a TAS (that last nonspell smells fishy tho).

EDIT: oh dang someone already pointed this out.
My bad, still amazing.

[Validon98]

I don't consider Jaimers neither one of the best Touhou players out there nor do I even think he's a touhou player. Jaimers treats the touhou series like any other shmups there is, and therefore doesn't indulge too deeply into any of the games. Don't misunderstand, though: he's very good. Very good at shmups, but his knowledge of the touhou games is shallow and doesn't go much beyond how to dodge most patterns, I imagine. Intricacies of the games are most likely lost on him due to little playtime. And the familiarity of hitboxes is something that you don't learn by doing day 3 LNBs like him. He's definitely a good player, but that's why it's important to correct his mistakes, seeing how people would believe him without second thought.

*tries to contain annoyance at elitist attitude, barely hanging on for dear life* (Seriously though you are kind of making a big deal out of this, let's not get carried away here. >_>;;; )

Anyhow, uh... I do think, looking over the Extra dialogues, that there is a good chance we'll be seeing Junko and Hecatia again. Probably Clownpiece since she seems to be one of the higher-ups in Hecatia's little hell fairy army, but that depends. Seiren and Ringo might show up along with some other moon rabbits, who knows, Doremy's still probably going to be chilling in the dream world, and Sagume is a big (although like some people have said, the fact she doesn't really appear publicly too much probably means she's not showing up any time soon). Who knows, though? I have a bit of hope.

[Tiamat]

Like I said, Junko and Hecate ended on a cliffhanger and are as close to directly stated to appear again as an in-universe statement not stated by a narrator can get.  All four extra stage scenarios slap it in your face that they'll have some relevance to the future (Reisen's especially emphasizes it, as it shows that the feeling of wanting to meet up between them and Eirin is mutual). Clownpiece can be whereever Hecatia is, It's hard to imagine the moon rabbits not sticking around either when they've stated in several cases that they will be staying around. Doremi's a bit more niche, obviously, but her setting is such that ZUN can easily put her in whatever if he feels like it without twisting the plot around (something made semi-clear by her "remember the new guy" trope status that's implied in some of her dialogues.  Like Kogasa's SOPM news article which takes place long before UFO, Doremi can even have appearances that take place in the past due to that)

That really just leaves Segume, although even she currently fills a niche as the only shown Lunarian administrator (the sisters are more like underlings, really) if ZUN needs that for whatever reason.

[Sakurei]

*tries to contain annoyance at elitist attitude, barely hanging on for dear life* (Seriously though you are kind of making a big deal out of this, let's not get carried away here. >_>;;; )

lol k.

I was just correcting a mistake Jaimers made, and then further explained why it's sensible the mistake was made after someone else was (indirectly) asking. There was nothing elitist about that at all.
Maybe I am making a big deal out of his mistake, but that is because if he's not corrected, this misinformation will forever float around the forum, and I would prefer that doesn't happen. That's all.

[ふねん1]

I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of the LoLK cast will probably show up again in things like the printed works. But to break the trend in this thread a little bit, I'm actually personally hoping Junko never appears as a boss again in a future Touhou game. Her danmaku style is just... not interesting at all, save for a couple exceptions (and even those I don't think ZUN "meant" to be as such). Then again, I admit my wish is pretty unrealistic because she's a final boss and those tend to reappear in side games like StB, DS, and ISC. But who knows when the next such game will come out, so I might as well hold hope until then.

[Lollipop]

I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.

[TresserT]

I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.

On pointdevice, you can't.

On Legacy, at the end of every chapter you get a score based on the amount of graze you got that chapter and the percent of enemies you killed. If you killed 100% of the enemies and got 200 graze for the chapter, you get a life fragment. The less enemies you kill, the more you have to graze. 3 life pieces = 1 life.

[The Greatest Dog]

I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.

Get 200 graze per chapter, plus shoot down every enemy.

Or miss a few enemies, but get more than 200 graze.

Edit: whoops how did I miss that post?

[nightsparrow]

I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of the LoLK cast will probably show up again in things like the printed works. But to break the trend in this thread a little bit, I'm actually personally hoping Junko never appears as a boss again in a future Touhou game. Her danmaku style is just... not interesting at all, save for a couple exceptions (and even those I don't think ZUN "meant" to be as such). Then again, I admit my wish is pretty unrealistic because she's a final boss and those tend to reappear in side games like StB, DS, and ISC. But who knows when the next such game will come out, so I might as well hold hope until then.

She'll have defiled herself with impurity just for kicks so she can use cool spell cards in the side games. Then her defeat dialogue will be, "Hm... maybe plain rings were better after all." And then she'll never appear again.

[snowflake247]

3 life pieces = 1 life.

In the extra stage, however, it's 5 pieces.

[Drake]

If you killed 100% of the enemies and got 200 graze for the chapter, you get a life fragment. The less enemies you kill, the more you have to graze.

To be more specific, because putting it that way is really confusing, to get a life/bomb piece you need to get one million points from the Chapter Bonus, which is:

Code: [Select]

bonus = graze ? % enemies killed ? 50100% shoot down ratio and 200 graze yields 200 ? 100 ? 50 = 1000000 points, for example. However, going for graze is often safer and more bountiful than trying to kill every enemy.

[Zil]

I'm quoting this message because I can't find when ZUN started using circles for collision detection, it's a recent change for LoLK's engine?

My understanding is that they were circular in PoFV. http://wikiwiki.jp/thk/?%B2%D6%2F%C8%BD%C4%EA

Am I to believe that ZUN changed them to rectangles for MoF, and then went back to circles at a later time? And if so, when was that time? Nobody here appears to know what they're talking about.

[microfolk]

My understanding is that they were circular in PoFV. http://wikiwiki.jp/thk/?%B2%D6%2F%C8%BD%C4%EA

Am I to believe that ZUN changed them to rectangles for MoF, and then went back to circles at a later time? And if so, when was that time? Nobody here appears to know what they're talking about.

It's a really fascinating topic! And holy shit at the knives' hitbox in PoFV I should really play that game more.
I'd love if Drake would elaborate on his message about the hit detection, I believe when they say it's a really easy to understand but I'm really dumb and I need all the help I can get.

(I hope I'm not going off topic but since we're talking about LoLK's hitboxes I guess it's safe to talk about it here?)

[Tengukami]

(I hope I'm not going off topic but since we're talking about LoLK's hitboxes I guess it's safe to talk about it here?)

Yeah I'd say this is very relevant. And I'm honestly surprised no one seems to know when ZUN went from circles to squares to circles again.

Although I'm pretty sure SA also had boxes, as Drake once put out this nightmarish patch for the game that (I think) removed the bullet art and just left black squares behind.

[Sakurei]

SA definitely had boxes. There is no way in hell the hitboxes on the bosses and some bullets were circular when I played it.