Author Topic: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released  (Read 218485 times)

Every single enemy in stage 4 is one of her magical orbs (because there's no life or death there: no fairies or spirits). All but one of her spellcards is Orb Sign "X". So yeah, her orb familiars are definitely her gimmick.

By the way, ZUN seems to have gotten it backwards at the top of the screen, but her given name is Sagume, and everyone else in the story always calls her Sagume. And... her name actually comes up more often than anyone else's, probably. I find it kind of disorienting to see people calling her Kishin, even though I can understand why.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 08:46:55 AM by Clarste »

So just for Clarification, and mainly because I think basically nobody's talked about it in depth, but Sagume really
Spoiler:
is in the end the one true culprit of ULiL?

She'd certainly be one cool final boss! 

Do elaborate if you don't mind, because Junko's morality (or lack thereof) is exactly what I'm heavily pondering at the moment.

It might be me just having wonky sources due to inability to rely on the translated dialougie itself, but doesn't her motive involve
Spoiler:
Hou Yi, Chang'e's husband, accidentally killing her family in the process of removing excess suns from the sky that spread calamity upon the land
?

Your description is inaccurate.
Spoiler:
In this game, Zun merged two different men in Chinese mythology/history: Yi, and Hou Yi as the same person. The former was the husband of Chang'e and shot off 9 suns, while the latter was married to someone with the name of Junko(Chun Hu in Chinese) in some version of the myths.
Now, in this game, what seemed to happen is that -- Yi is a man (mortal man seemingly) who basically had a romantic past with both ladies. And eventually he killed the son of his and Junko's. This is what drove her mad. Since Yi died somehow, she focused her entire being on getting revenge on Chang'e, and in the process forgot/let go of anything else, such as her "title" (nameless existence) etc. She basically became the Spirit of Desire (the floaty light orbs in TD) with the sole purpose of vengeance to Chang'e.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 09:21:22 AM by Margatron »

I just completed the game in Easy using the Point Device-mode and here are some of my thoughts...
Personally this game is much harder than SA, as even though PD gives you unlimited tries, you can easily get stuck on the bosses if you do not have bombs.
Also Clownpiece and Junko ar pure murder with their ridiculous survival spells and thigh bullet gaps... I can only imagine how fun it will be to graze them with Marisa and Sanae who move much faster than Reimu.

Music-wise I think this is an excellent game and I really like how the different tunes fitted the levels, however as I kept dying over and over again I had a little of a change to enjoy the music when I was playing the game.

Story however, albeit being a good one, was overly complicated compared to the stories in earlier games... Of course there is a possibility that I have misunderstood what is going on as I don't really know Japanese that well:
Spoiler:
One random lunarian wants to beat another random lunarian, so she gangs up with hell fairies and a sandman to drive rest of the lunarians to exile in the dream world...
Of course the lunarians do not like dream world so they decide to expand their borders to the Gensokyo what causes our heroines to take action...
In the end Reimu and co. beat up everyone with Erin's shady drug and lunarians return back to the Moon and that one lunarian never got her revenge (?)

Well, then I am waiting with great anticipation to see a video where someone  beats this game in Lunatic using Legacy-mode.





Blog updated: 14.11.2011
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LunaWillow

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Well, then I am waiting with great anticipation to see a video where someone  beats this game in Lunatic using Legacy-mode.
Here it is :V
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC, HSiFS
Hard 1cc: PoFV
Extra Clear: PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF
Other Stuff: ISC all clear

N-Forza

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So just for Clarification, and mainly because I think basically nobody's talked about it in depth, but Sagume really
Spoiler:
is in the end the one true culprit of ULiL?

She'd certainly be one cool final boss!

Yes, she made the orbs, and the whole urban legend thing was an extension of her power. I don't think it's clear if she intended Sumireko to get involved though, or if that was just an unrelated accident.

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Spoiler:
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

I'm not really complaining or anything, but she's just written as the centerpiece of the entire game.

I see no translation here.

The problem is that our translation of kegare ("impurity") becomes confusing when "purity" is now a thing in the latest game.

game2011

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I'm seeing quite a lot of "rushed games" accusations out there, or in the very least accusations about
Spoiler:
Junko's "messy and terrible" spell cards[/spoilers].
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:56:44 AM by game2011 »

Espadas

  • *
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At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V

I wasn't able to check MotK for a few days.... when i'm finally back i rush to read everything then suddenly THIS.
Reaction sequence:

- bland staring trying to puzzle out if the statement is true
- small smirk
- Huge smile while thinking "ZUN, you magnificent ba$tard!"
- Trying to recover a normal look after a "What are you smiling like a loon at?" from my lil' brother.....

Sagus, i hate you  :D

On another matter: this seems to be setting up a new "trilogy" like when the Moriyas appeared.... too many people's situations are still left in the air: a good portion of the girls in LoLK are now stranded or what? What about Junko herself?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:14:37 AM by Espaas »

N-Forza

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  • *
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The problem is that our translation of kegare ("impurity") becomes confusing when "purity" is now a thing in the latest game.
So let's come up with another term. Give me some time to recover from Comiket fatigue and I'll be more than happy to spitball a few alternatives.

Espadas

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So let's come up with another term. Give me some time to recover from Comiket fatigue and I'll be more than happy to spitball a few alternatives.

Maybe something like "contamination" or "pollution"?

Yes, she made the orbs, and the whole urban legend thing was an extension of her power. I don't think it's clear if she intended Sumireko to get involved though, or if that was just an unrelated accident.

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Spoiler:
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

Maybe Sagume is mentioned so much isn't just because she's heavily involved with the plot but because well, unlike other games where the final boss battle happens and then Reimu has tea with them, Junko still shows up with Hecatia in the extra stage. 

Speaking of which, I've only seen like two endings (haven't played that much heh), but does anyone from the actual game (other than Sagume) appear in any of them at all? 

Speaking of which, I've only seen like two endings (haven't played that much heh), but does anyone from the actual game (other than Sagume) appear in any of them at all?

Ringo shows up in one of Reimu's endings. ...And Tewi shows up in her other one, so I guess Reimu just attracts rabbits.

Assuming there are 8 total, I've seen all but one, and so far Ringo's the only new character who shows up. Most of them are "debriefing" scenes where they talk to the people they know about what happened on the moon. Sagume doesn't actually show up either, they just talk about her a lot.

Kilgamayan

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Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Spoiler:
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

I'm not really complaining or anything, but she's just written as the centerpiece of the entire game.

Sagume confirmed for avatar of Ki-san
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
Alright, after fully beating the game I can happily say I've finally gotten used to the soundtrack. The space-ish feel of the songs felt weird at first but after listening to
Spoiler:
Clownpiece and Hecatia's themes over and over again
I've developed a hell of a lot of appreciation for them. Not only that, but
Spoiler:
I feel ZUN truly outdid himself with Junko's stage and boss theme, the former was a beautiful melancholic theme that probably relates to Junko's backstory, absolutely beautiful. But her boss theme, bloody hell, it sounded absolutely fantastic. It sounded like a mix of spacey-ness and royal power, it was such a weird combination that worked off really well.
All in all the ost lived up to my hype.

game2011

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At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.
Those fairies come from
Spoiler:
hell
.  Do not underestimate the power of
Spoiler:
hell
.

And I thought Cirno being the strongest is simply a joke people throw around for laughs?  When did people start acting as if she is legitimately and officially the strongest fairy in the series?

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
Do not underestimate the power of
Spoiler:
hell.

And I thought Cirno being the strongest is simply a joke thrown around for laughs?  When did people start acting as if she is legitimately and officially the strongest fairy in the series?
Well considering what she did in GFW and UNL, she pretty much actually became one of the strongest from how she beat people WAY more powerful than her, e.g. Marisa.

game2011

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You have to consider if those people are actually using their full power when they fought her and if the real reason they lost was because they played around with her too much and got careless.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 12:03:35 PM by game2011 »

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
You have to consider if those people are actually using their full power when they fought her and if the real reason they lost was because they played around with her too much and got careless.
Marisa did say she was holding back, but did admit even if she was using her proper strength she'd have difficulty with Cirno.

game2011

  • magneiptVE
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Being the strongest doesn't necessary mean her attacks are more powerful.  I see it as Cirno actually acting smart for once and coming up with tactics that help her overcome her enemies rather than do stuff like unleashing a "I believe in myself and must win" kind of attack.

Take Batman for example: he's strong, but not because every time he throws a punch, buildings fall apart and islands explode.  He may be a talented fighter, but the real reason he's strong is because he's very smart, well prepared, and resourceful.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 12:07:12 PM by game2011 »

Plus let's face it, Cirno was basically cheating in GFW by freezing Danmaku.  Power level discussions are tough (and forbidden I think?) but she's got that one silly gimmick up her sleeve.

That being said, I really wanna see more of both Clownpiece and Hecatia.  I dunno why but I really liked them and their goofy western inspired designs. 

Darkness1

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Marisa did say she was holding back, but did admit even if she was using her proper strength she'd have difficulty with Cirno.
That and I think it was actually Cirno's clothes that were torn in their dialogue, instead of the other way around, which I find kind of funny.

BB

  • Typewriter Youkai
In stage 6, when the blue rain starts to fall and the music swells just in time for Earth to come back into view... legit chills. What a moment that is.

So spells like Junko's final spell (her ACTUAL final spell, that is) usually have some kind of "no, you can't just time it out" phase that comes into play at the end. I can't survive it long enough to find out (btw, Practice mode has continues now...) but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the horrors of the 10 second countdown.
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The reason extra stage is only in regular mode is
Spoiler:
because the medicine stopped it's effects after the final boss, so no more "seeing the future" ability for the characters
?

Uruwi

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Are there also bad endings? I had a terrible run today on legacy and wanted to test it out, but I ran out of continues during Junko's final spell  :(

No. I continued 5 times on Normal and still apparently got a good ending.
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Highest difficulty 1CCed for each game, by shot type in the original order. (-: never 1CCed on any difficulty, or never used; E: easy, N: normal, H: hard, L / U: lunatic / unreal.)
EoSD [NNNE] PCB [EE--N-] IN [NEEE + Ex Border] PoFV [Mystia N, Mystia E no charge] MoF [EN--H- + Ex Marisa B] SA [N-----] UFO [----EN] TD [NENE] DDC [EE-EHE + Ex Marisa B & Sakuya A] LoLK [PD --N- Legacy ---N] EE [N- + Ex Yabusame] EMS [N-- + Ex Yabusame] RMI [NHN + Ex YaoSuku]
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Sagus

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There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?
Ah, I see... it might be, then, that just the fact that they were fairies made them unable to be destroyed. I guess that even if the Lunarians purifying weapons killed them, they'd just respawn. Or they were so impure that the Lunarians couldn't get close, as you said. Or a bit of both.

Well considering what she did in GFW and UNL, she pretty much actually became one of the strongest from how she beat people WAY more powerful than her, e.g. Marisa.
She didn't beat Marisa; you can see from the post battle portraits that Cirno's the one who's all beaten up, and the newspaper clipping about the event in SoPM shows that, although she put up a good fight, she still lost:
Quote from: Hatate
Even though I wouldn't be super concerned if the human were to lose by some chance, the match got nowhere near that point, and I realized how far humankind had come.
It also shows that Marisa was both drunk and using a flashlight to fight instead of her mini-hakkero, which reinforce just how low-level fairies are compared to the cast.

She did, however, survive Okuu, so she's certainly a pretty damn strong fairy.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 02:01:28 PM by Sagus »
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Ah, I see... it might be, then, that just the fact that they were fairies made them unable to be destroyed. I guess that even if the Lunarians purifying weapons killed them, they'd just respawn. Or they were so impure that the Lunarians couldn't get close, as you said. Or a bit of both.
I don't think the Lunarians themselves would have a serious problem when faced with impurity, rather it's something that must not affect the Lunar capital. Just saying, but this is not the first time fairies were brought to the Moon : in SSiB, Remi's fairy maids were brought on the Moon also, and Yorihime had no problem being in their vicinity. If we don't give "pure" a holy-like connotation, "pure" is basically the 100%, the wholesome, the homogenous, the untainted ; therefore "pure" does not admit change (say for example a plebeian marrying into a royal bloodline : the result of the union won't be as "pure" as the bloodline) ; "impure" is the mish-mash of various things and admit change, it can include things that have nothing to do with the original thing, it admit change (IMO) ; "life" necessarily imply "death", they come together : Lunarians deem "life" impure because of that : for example, the Udonge flower is a flower that only grow when tainted with "impurity", meaning that this flower being in the lunar capital makes no sense since it can't grow there, yet there it is, used as an impurity detector of sorts. The Lunarians's fear of impurity is actually pretty legitimate because if "life" tainted the Lunar capital, life and death cycle would apply, and might threaten the long, presumably prosperous lifestyle of the Lunarians (I think that is also why Yorihime found Reimu's corruption attack in SSiB more threatening than the rest).

Anyway, my point is that the life-force is what they considered as impure. Regardless, fairies are still life-force whether it gets boosted or not. I assume it might as well be radiation for Lunarians ? Still, Yorihime and Toyohime have been on Earth (In the Bougetsuhou 4koma), which is filled with life-force / impurity (I?d rather use ?kegare? for more religious stuff cuz confusions) and they were pretty fine there (plus the fairy maids earlier).

What I meant to say is that impurity is not instakill for Lunarians, they just don?t want it in their Capital. Also, it should be pretty silly of the Moon to design weapons that are ineffective against the very thing they hate the most ; their weapons should affect (as in ?kill?) fairies but won?t do anything toward the lifeforce they bring with them. The Lunarian?s purification (not Junko?s) might just be a sugarcoated way of saying mass murder, the kind which kill the land so dead even the grass won?t grow anymore. Damn fancy words?

I guess there?s gonna be a lot of confusion on the kind of definition of ?pure? and ?impure? that are going to be used this time, but there is certainly more than one.


On an unrelated note, the ending is fairly more accessible for this one, despite the difficulty. I take it it?s gonna extend into something else ? I mean, c?mon it?s ZUN?s oh so beloved Moon saga !  :V This can't be the last we hear of this Sagume person

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue
... I think you misspelled "Lunarian"  :V
Spoiler:
Her meat-shield machinegun spellcard is totally a pain in the sitter for Sanae players...

Critz

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Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.

BB

  • Typewriter Youkai
Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.

Perhaps someone did notice, but "guys there's loads of fairies on the moon!" isn't the kind of research paper that gets much notice.

As for Yukari... she knew it would be handled by Eirin, so why bother getting involved? There was no manipulation to be done, here. More time for sleeping :V
Touhou fan since 2008.

Faves quicklist:
Yukari - Byakuren - Lily White - PCB - UFO - Necrofantasia - Cosmic Mind - Shining Needle - not into the fighters - not into score play - enjoy storytelling and theorycraft