Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Bunbunmaru News~ => Front Page Headlines => Topic started by: Helepolis on August 14, 2015, 06:34:37 PM

Title: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Helepolis on August 14, 2015, 06:34:37 PM
Spoilers are allowed, but don't post ending screens please. If you want to discuss endings, use spoiler tags.

News: ZUN has released a fixing patch for LoLK, version 1.00b. This patch fixes a number of critical issues. You can download the patch from the official site (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/th15dl.html).



. . .
. . .
Come. . . in. . . rth. . .
This. . . is Helep. . . ove. . .
. . .
Ca. . .ou . . .ea. . me?

*click* [ connection lost ]

Well, so much for the Kappa technology. Apparently it doesn't work here. Oh well, we'll do it the old fashion way!

Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」
(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk00a.jpg)

I cannot believe ZUN managed to finish this game on time. For a while many people thought he would be unable to finish it on time, due to glitches / bugs and also his tweet(?) regarding it. Even though he would've delayed it until Winter Komiket, nobody would've mind. So the summer Komiket release is a huge gift from our Touhou Priest!

I'll spare you the boring repeat of what we already know from the trial but just to quick review: Touhou 15 takes place with some interesting story line. Especially the conversations between Seiran, Ringo and Doremey causes huge speculations. And majority of those speculations actually became true! I wish I could spoil it already here but nope! Not allowed! Maybe once we start accepting spoilers, I'll update this section.

Let us take a look again at our heroines, who are out there to fire danmaku, graze danmaku and hold spell card battles to find that 'Mad Man' who is causing this trouble.


Game Modes
As explained in the trial, Touhou 15 comes with two game modes.

Legacy Mode
This mode is your traditional and classic Touhou story mode. You will start with a set of lives and spell cards on your journey, trying to solve this incident. ZUN has been in the past changing the continue system by either making you restart the stage or continue where you left off. For LoLK, you will continue where you left off and gaining full power. Of course, you will lose the ability to unlock Extra if you're playing Normal mode or up.

Point Device Mode
This mode is perhaps the most interesting one to note. Both in lore and actual mechanics, the game offers you a different approach. Even though it is visible in Legacy Mode too, you will notice the stage has been divided into various sections, called chapters. These chapters have no real purpose in Legacy Mode, but here in Point Device mode they will become your checkpoints or 'saving points. You will also quickly notice that you don't have any lives at all. however, pichuun and you'll be send back to those check points. And during boss battles, back to the start of the spell card or attack.

How I personally see it, based on people's input and story: Legacy Mode is the Gensoukyo way of battling and Point Device Mode is the Lunarian way of battling where any failure will result in death. But don't worry, nobody is dying. It seems based on Lore, Eirin has produced a special elixer which lets our heroines experience the future. And it seems this future can be dangerous for them.
Still not sure exactly about this, orz


The good girls
We're presenting them once more because hey, they are our heroines, right? Especially this useless bunny who is only good for her sex appeal. Anyway. . .
(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk01a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk01.jpg)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk02a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk02.jpg)
(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk03a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk03.jpg)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk04a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk04.jpg)

Reisen sure looks cocky as ever. Her ingame dialogue pretty much reflects this attitude. Also, I still cannot decide whether Sanae is licking with her tongue, giving that creepy youkai hunter vibe or that is a part of her mouth. Except I am still kind of sad what happened to Marisa. ZUN always portrayed her as the flashy and energetic appearance type. Somehow she lost all of that with this strange "ordinary" pose. Well, she is according to Forbidden Scrollery an Extreme Ordinary Magician. BUT ISN'T THIS A BIT TOO EXTREME!?

Each girl has a main rapid bullet going straight forward and are supported by familiars emitting extra shots. So I've divided those specifically into non-focus and focus.

- - - Player Character - - - non-FocusFocus shotSpell Card
Hakurei ReimuHoming AmuletsStraight NeedlesFantasy Seal
Kirisame MarisaLaserMagic MissileMaster Spark
Kochiya SanaeFroggy BombsHoming SnakesFroggy Nuke
Reisen Udongein InabaScatter SuppositoryLarge Suppository3-Layer Shield

The spell card that probably matters the most to explain is Reisen's. Once activated, you will gain a 3-Layered shield protecting you from Pichuun. In terms of damage, you don't get any extra output. While Reimu, Marisa and Sanae shred the enemies with their powerful Spell Cards. Reisen seems to stick with her loyal bunny-gun.


The bad girls
Ha ha ha! No spoilers yet! But expect this section be filled within 48 hours when spoilers are more accepted. For now, MG MG MG!!
We've already seen Seiran, Ringo and Doremy but what about our other enemy girls? Well, here they are. From left to right and top to bottom: Kishin Sagume, Clownpiece, Junko and Hecatia Lapislazuli

(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk07a.png) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk07.png)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk08a.png) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk08.png)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk09a.png) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk09.png)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk10a.png) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk10.png)

Remember what I said about the smirk / cocky faces all the girls show in this game? What's with that!!!


Trial vs Full release
It usually goes without a saying that trial versions of games heavily change/adapt once they reach their full form (Final form(ry)). To avoid too much going into technical details but to still keep you all informed:


Further more, ZUN has tweaked and changed few visual effects which were distorting your play experience. So far none seen, but the glitches occurring in the trial version are all eliminated making this game a glitch free game. Unfortunately there is one graphical mistake/bug I noticed. The final non-spell(?) of the final boss shows suddenly 2 stars as spell card stock. This makes you think there are still 4 attacks or so left. But once you break her attack, it will jump to 0 stars. Not sure how important this is to fix anyway.


Music, sounds, looks and feel
The music section remains for me iffy to discuss. I am not going to discuss or give out my personal opinion about them. But all I can note is that LoLK gave me IN vibe regarding tune and theme. ZUN has carefully chosen the style/theme he wants to output and managed to succeed. Stage 4 for some reason remains iconic, having that same bit of melody just like in pretty much all Touhou games.

Looks and feel seems somewhat better than the trial version. Not sure why but in the trial I felt bit overwhelmed by the looks. Maybe it was due to the glitches or other issues? If I do have one complaint to make is that Stage 4 felt a bit dull. We've seen it from the screenshots. It looked like a nice 3D stage, but when you're flying through it it felt a bit weird. But then you're rewarding with Stage 5 and 6 which are definitely the highlights of the game.

The journey you're making past Doremy is well rewarded with interesting designs for the girls. Speaking of Doremey, what's with the smirk all the girls have in this game!? I guess it is their lunar attitude?
(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk05a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk05.jpg)

Some final screens for your viewing pleasure.
(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk11a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk11.jpg)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk12a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk12.jpg)(http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk13a.jpg) (http://www.taihou.nl/th15/lolk13.jpg)
Pew pew pew, lasers. And this seems to be the Lunar Sea which was mentioned in various works. The last one is obviously Quick Man's stage.

I'll be honest to say that during the screenshot snapping, I got destroyed hard on Easy mode. I guess I haven't acquired the skills of a true Tengu yet to get away unharmed with the paparazzi. If you'll excuse me now, I have a flight to catch to make that Journey.

Helepolis
*MG MG MG*


Credit for specific details goes to all the people who have already explained/posted in the old thread or IRC. Thank you for your efforts and input.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: saisengen on August 14, 2015, 06:38:08 PM
Did someone extract the OST?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 14, 2015, 06:45:28 PM
A funny tidbit:
Clownpiece has the shortest midboss battle - no spellcards, no nonspells, just three phrases and she's gone!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 14, 2015, 06:48:01 PM
I noticed Junko's wall of ring danmaku spell has a pattern and it's not just plain random, it's pretty similar to Orin's spell on SA last stage where you had to press right and left keys, this time you have to do it extremely fast.

Having confidence helps also (?)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 14, 2015, 07:00:18 PM
Quote from: MaskedLeon
I see your point. As for me, I get the feeling that Zun is taking more and more risks by creating different characters that he used to do.

But I don't know . . . I feel less and less interested in new touhou games. I don't want to play the "It was better before" but I'm not so thrilled as I used to be when I played previous games. And even now, when playing these games(like IN or MoF for exemple), I feel happy to play it. Since TD I don't get this thing, or more accurately this "touhou thing". I don't think that I'm uninterested in touhou anymore since there's so many things I love. It's the new games . . . I'm not happy as I was. I think that's just me though, so I won't say the games are bad or something like that.

For some reason, the fact that more and more Touhou characters are named gods and distaff historical figures still feels a bit odd with me here and there, but I do appreciate that for the ones that the ones that aren't just figures of Asian myth are clearly being differentiated in their style (not that I know if ZUN purposefully singled them out for that but I imagine he probably did)

Maybe one of the reason why new Touhou games are less interesting is because it's... well, an old series perhaps?  I mean, you can only do so many shoot them ups before the new-ness starts to wear off a little.  Heck, the normal enemies are still the same as always (fairies) and so are the danmaku types. Only thing that really changes from game to game are the patterns, music, and boss characters (which, obviously, are good enough for Touhou to still be a popular and amazing series, but still not good enough to make it feel like a brand new childhood christmas for each new game).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 14, 2015, 07:04:33 PM
Sorry, but I feel I'm still new to this forum (even thought I've been here a while)
How do I mark my text with code to make it invisible?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Marron on August 14, 2015, 07:09:43 PM
Maybe one of the reason why new Touhou games are less interesting is because it's... well, an old series perhaps?  I mean, you can only do so many shoot them ups before the new-ness starts to wear off a little.  Heck, the normal enemies are still the same as always (fairies) and so are the danmaku types. Only thing that really changes from game to game are the patterns, music, and boss characters (which, obviously, are good enough for Touhou to still be a popular and amazing series, but still not good enough to make it feel like a brand new childhood christmas for each new game).
Yes . . . but as for me, I find that touhou have lost something. Something I could fin unti UFO came. I can be happy to play touhou games, from 2 to 11(even if I prefer 98 era but that's another story), I find what I search. What Zun did was interesting for me at that time. It's like, you know, when you play IN, there's a great athmosphere ! You're so in the game when you're playing, it's incredible. The ost is god tier and the character are not too serious about things and themselves. I think many people feel what I described when playing IN.
The game that also do that a lot for me is MoF. And I could still feel that with SA.
But since UFO, I don't feel this anymore.



Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 14, 2015, 07:11:04 PM
Sorry, but I feel I'm still new to this forum (even thought I've been here a while)
How do I mark my text with code to make it invisible?
Put it between
Code: [Select]
[spoiler] [/spoiler] tags .
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: teefa85 on August 14, 2015, 07:13:15 PM
The new character designs may be a bit wonky, especially Clownpiece and Hecatia, but I just keep getting silly ideas for one panel comic gags!  Probably because of said wonkiness...I do want to explain why a Hell Goddess is dressed like she just walked out of Hot Topic!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 14, 2015, 07:16:10 PM
Newer games have always been deemed worse than the older ones. But, importantly, it's almost always relative to which games were out when the speaker got interested in Touhou. New games have simply never been fully embraced by the fandom, for as long as I've been paying attention. I'm sure you could find people out there who think that MoF was the beginning of the decline, or SA, or TD, or DDC. It's nothing new, and while I'm sure actual quality does vary somewhat from game to game, most likely you're just not finding it fresh anymore.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 14, 2015, 07:16:50 PM
To be honest, I'm enjoying the game so far. Good music, I like the new character's designs and the danmaku as well. And oh god the story.

Kinda disappointed with Junko's patterns, I'm not sure if it was because ZUN needed to rush the game or it's just on purpose (she appears again in the Extra stage and her spells aren't any better as well) ? I'm starting to think it is because of the second reason but it was kinda dull? I don't know but I found her enjoyable anyway. I love her story.

Oh, btw, this is the first game without a stage 5 midboss battle.

@sibgamer: yep, it's up somewhere.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: pokemon123 on August 14, 2015, 07:18:20 PM
well after SA i'd say it was declining to me (UFO being one of the worst shmups i've ever played IMO) but LOLK brought it back up.

Can anyone upload a score file if you have cleared hard please?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on August 14, 2015, 07:23:19 PM
So, I played through the whole game and certainly had plenty of fun with it. Got a basic Easy 1cc on my first try. Will attempt the other modes later.

If there's anything interesting that I can add, is that
Clownpiece is most likely based on a Lampad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampad). They are nymphs/fairies of the Underworld, carry torches around and are the companions of Hecate. The one who served as base for Hecatia.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phantasmal on August 14, 2015, 07:31:03 PM
Just fixing my post up...
I updated my mini-description on the left...

Oh and Reisen is OP, made Legacy mode feel easy, even on Normal.
I'm not at the point of Hard/Lunatic yet.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on August 14, 2015, 07:34:26 PM
...better to escape while you can.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 14, 2015, 07:50:13 PM
Put it between
Code: [Select]
[spoiler] [/spoiler] tags .

Thank you so much for helping.


Kinda disappointed with Junko's patterns, I'm not sure if it was because ZUN needed to rush the game or it's just on purpose (she appears again in the Extra stage and her spells aren't any better as well) ? I'm starting to think it is because of the second reason but it was kinda dull? I don't know but I found her enjoyable anyway. I love her story.

I think it's the second reason. Her ability is to control purification, which, in my own interpretation, also means to simplify things.
In music room ZUN said he didn't add too much to her theme and wanted us to enjoy danmaku "simply and purely".
So her pattern is dull is pretty much on purpose.
I think ZUN succeeded in making a pure danmaku pattern, Junko's pattern imo suits her very well.
But the downfall is that it really is kind of boring, the fight is still good, though, especially with her theme.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 14, 2015, 07:52:16 PM
I played Normal Legacy, and
it appears that the endings are based on whether you played Pointdevice or Legacy, rather than whether you continued or not (I continued 5 times). Can anyone confirm whether this is true?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Darkness1 on August 14, 2015, 07:58:28 PM
It really does seem like Junko's patterns simplicity is on purpose, since if it was simply rushed, the extra stage would probably look worse too. Still looks kind of lazy though, a shame but as a character I like her anyways. And as someone else pointed out before, I do find her spellcard background beautiful. Interesting to note is that her portrait movement style is unique to her, at least as far as I know. Probably done to show off her full cutin better, but I still like the look of her ascending upwards. That, and her theme is one of my favorites from the game.

I actually thought her nonspell was a Gengetsu throwback at first, with the fast circle of bullets, but apparently she's just simplistic in nature. Overall I like the character designs, but I would have preferred if Hecatia's appearance would have been more like Junko, because even as a major goddess of Hell, it's hard to take her seriously looking like that.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 14, 2015, 08:08:12 PM
So, having played this and made a minor opinion before, I do feel like this one is somewhat of a wonky one, but I did enjoy it (haven't played the Extra yet, so I can't say anything about that, but that's something else).
People mentioned before about their opinion on when "Touhou started declining", and to be honest I disagree with the opinion entirely, if only because I don't feel like Touhou can decline as long as ZUN is working on the series. I still believe he does what he does the way he does it without too much regard to what people think, and I know as a result the games end up clashing with what people like or do not like. Hell, I still don't like UFO from a gameplay perspective, but I don't feel like that marked any sort of downshift in quality for the rest of the series as a whole. It's evolved in style over the years, and as people have also said, it's really hard for a series within a very limited genre like bullet hells to get much fresher. Personally, I feel a lot of people in the fandom have some sort of aversion to everything new now, and it's a bit depressing to see because the negativity gets rather vocal, whether here or on other sites (4chan in particular).
With that said, I still have some mixed feelings on the game. I enjoyed it, I still think the stage 5 boss was fun despite being hellishly difficult, the stage 6 boss is somewhat disappointing after the various gimmicks seen with
Clownpiece
, but as people have explained,
it does feel like the simplicity was done purposefully, especially since Junko's ability to purify fits best with simplicity.
Maybe it could have been done better, I don't know, but I still enjoyed it nonetheless.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 14, 2015, 08:09:53 PM
I played Normal Legacy, and
it appears that the endings are based on whether you played Pointdevice or Legacy, rather than whether you continued or not (I continued 5 times). Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

Based on Omake.txt, ZUN said there are two endings for each characters.
"Complete the game with miss" or "complete the game without miss". Both of them are good end.
Pointdevice mode counts as no miss, so this also means an ending for legacy mode and another for pointdevice
unless you can get no miss in legacy

EDIT: I don't know whether I should put the text invisible or not, since ZUN said this is not a spoiler, but I still did so anyway
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 14, 2015, 08:10:07 PM
Come to think of it, are the lunarians, specially Junko okay with danmaku battling? maybe it's stated on the dialogues, i'll wait and find out~

I also feel as though Touhou was slowly declining since TD, maybe because of kankolle influence, but it seems people no longer care about new games/characters , usually a new character pre-TD had a lot of fanart in less than a week, then Doremy for example barely has any and it's been a while since the demo, kinda sad really but it's expected, Touhou lived too long.

Any idea how the japanese fanbase is reacting to this?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TTBD on August 14, 2015, 08:25:38 PM
Anybody got info on Spellcard translations?
I was thinking of making a Junko boss battle or something.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Marron on August 14, 2015, 08:32:33 PM
As for myself, I want to be precise about something: like I said, I don't find anymore what I like in the other games BUT I didn't said that the new touhou are bad. Touhou have evolved into something I don't feel. For me, Zun have a different way to make games now, and I don't like but that doesn't mean it's bad, and in fact, it can interest people who didn't care about touhou until today.(or until UFO for exemple) Some can like things from newer games that they didn't find in previous games.

It's like 98 era versus windows era. Touhou is evolving, that's all.


ChronaSE: Yeah, I was suprised to see that Seija didn't have so much fanart when DDC came out.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maple on August 14, 2015, 08:39:34 PM
My complain would be the danmaku. Not that it's too hard (exactly what where you expecting?). But that it isn't too much touhou-ish. I see an overabundance of red/blue/purple bullets, a lot of aimed shots (for streaming), and some minor walls here and there. It's too "rough", "unrefined". Danmaku in touhou often sacrifices speed/density to put emphasis in beauty. The danmaku, through still deadly, lacks elegance.

Re:full game.
This morning i had a showerthough: people in the Moon Capital wouldn't, under any circumstances,
allow fairies, for they too fragile, die easily, and thus they'd bring tonnes of impurity to the Capital. I was proven right in stage 4
.

When hearing the theme of
stage 5 boss
, it came to my mind some tune from Golden Sun (from the GBA). Probably a boss battle theme, maybe I'll search for it later. It has a "sickly", "crazy" feel.

About the EX stage boss, i
expect loads of crossover jokes with the Steven Universe fandom
.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 14, 2015, 08:46:57 PM
I think it's the second reason. Her ability is to control purification, which, in my own interpretation, also means to simplify things.
In music room ZUN said he didn't add too much to her theme and wanted us to enjoy danmaku "simply and purely".
So her pattern is dull is pretty much on purpose.
I think ZUN succeeded in making a pure danmaku pattern, Junko's pattern imo suits her very well.
But the downfall is that it really is kind of boring, the fight is still good, though, especially with her theme.

Exactly. I just played her stage again and noticed the reasons behind this. What's more, Junko's danmaku require a lot of micrododging, so maybe that's another reason as well.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Komeiji11 on August 14, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
I actually really enjoyed
Junko's battle, except for that gross closing ring one. Maybe it's because I played Reimu and she's practically built to handle those sort of things.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: WHMZakeri on August 14, 2015, 09:19:16 PM
I actually really liked the Stage six boss patterns, even without the lore justification everybody else is excusing it with.
It was actually really unique to give her such hard to dodge patterns without using techniques to cloud up the screen and confuse your eyesight/abuse information overload.

I enjoyed it a lot compared to the Stage 4 and 5 bosses who were pretty much the exact opposite of that.
Clownpiece would have earned the name Hell Fairy if she wasn't already called one. I could have sworn I was playing on Normal mode when those lasers ... aaaugh! On another note, I think Junko's simple attacks were highlighted by the huge amounts of bullet spam that make up pretty much the entire rest of the game. Every character had some super specialized gimmick so Junko's attacks were actually refreshing in their simplicity.

Basically I think there's more genius on the designs than people are giving Zun credit for. I really don't feel the loss of touch/loss of atmosphere in these games at all (But then again that might just be my personal bias since I feel like all Shmups where the bosses and characters are piloted ships are automatically devoid of personality.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: shockdude on August 14, 2015, 09:37:45 PM
Stage 6 boss's nonspells were kinda meh but at least they were thematically coherent.
That spellcard that looked like
red energy explosions
was pretty awesome though.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 14, 2015, 09:40:42 PM
After a solid 200 retries, I have managed a normal mode no-bomb pointdevice clear. I was a little worried about the game based on the impressions others have given, but after playing through it for myself I was really blown away by how fun this was. With a few exceptions, I thought everything was really fun and fair, and I had a good feeling cracking each spell card's pattern.

Regarding Junko, I agree with the perception that her danmaku's simplicity feels like a reflection of her personality. Without knowing anything about her, her relatively simple robes and the general aesthetic of her danmaku gave me the impression that she cares more about defeating you than impressing you. In a way, her combat style felt really "alien" compared to the more lively patterns of everyone else in the series. I was really impressed by her fight overall, regardless of whether this was the intention or not.

I look forward to playing this game more in the future, and seeing how everything changes on lunatic.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 14, 2015, 09:45:39 PM
Here's a quick translation of all the new Spell Cards for anyone who's interested: http://pastebin.com/dRq5gLZ8
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 14, 2015, 09:53:00 PM
Hmm, yea, the names of Junko's spell cards make it kinda clear that their simplicity is on purpose.

I saw someone say that ZUN said (in the omake?) that another reason for their simplicity was so that people could enjoy purely dodging danmaku just for the sake of danmaku.

Kinda an odd decision for a final boss, although considering that the Extra Stage is "Stage 7" as well as the storyline context, narratively Hecatia + Junko is the final boss, not Junko.  The fact that Junko jumps in for some spell cards makes the purposeful simplicity even more obvious if you compare her spell cards to Hecatia's... again, alongside the spell card names.

No spoilers!! -Helepolis

EDIT:  Sorry, I forgot :(
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Jaimers on August 14, 2015, 10:00:55 PM
So I just tried the final boss with Reimu and her hitbox made most of the rings go from pixel-perfect bullshit to a complete joke.

This is like Sukuna's Grow Bigger card all over again.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Formless God on August 14, 2015, 10:16:51 PM
That final boss is a huge wasted potential. I liked the fact that elegance is into the shitter for real, but there are plenty of things that are more fun to play against than rings.
Maybe he will nail it next time
In the meantime the scoring and Legacy in general are all kinds of fucked the more I think about it. He should've just kept the initial resource scheme

P.S. Ahahahaha she
comes back in the extra stage
with TWO exact same attacks as 3rd nonspell, except one of them uses red bullets. One of her spells is a single slow as ass ring. What are you smoking ZUN
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Prime32 on August 14, 2015, 10:35:14 PM
Here's a quick translation of all the new Spell Cards for anyone who's interested: http://pastebin.com/dRq5gLZ8
Too late, nothing will stop me from calling the Stage 5 boss's spell cards "Quick Man" and "Double Quick Man" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSQM30QK3s). :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: microfolk on August 14, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Too late, nothing will stop me from calling the Stage 5 boss's spell cards "Quick Man" and "Double Quick Man" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSQM30QK3s). :V

... that's why I hate those spellcards so much.
I didn't make the connection, thank you for allowing me to focus my hate.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: SuperVehicle-001 on August 14, 2015, 11:10:31 PM
Do any of the endings tell what became of Junko after the events of the game? I'm assuming Seiran, Ringo and Sagome went back to the Moon, Doremy stayed in the Dream World and Clownpiece and Hecatia returned to Hell, but I doubt Junko would be welcome in any of those places. Is she in Gensokyo? She already proved that she has no problem being around impurity and I can't see her being anywhere else.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 14, 2015, 11:13:36 PM
Where are all of you getting the game?
Were all of you at Comiket 88? because I kinda doubt it...

Did some of you get it from Playism?

Also
Clownpiece: 'MUUUUUUUUURICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, FUCK YEAH!
That stage 5 boss looks like complete hell though.
Two survivals, really?

How does the stage 5 boss compare to dreamy Doremi?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 14, 2015, 11:27:08 PM
Where are all of you getting the game?
Were all of you at Comiket 88? because I kinda doubt it...

Did some of you get it from Playism?

Apologies to moderators. It starts with a P and ends with a Y.

Quote
Also
Clownpiece: 'MUUUUUUUUURICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, FUCK YEAH!
That stage 5 boss looks like complete hell though.
Two survivals, really?

How does the stage 5 boss compare to dreamy Doremi?

<><><><> is much harder than Doremy.

Start of Stage 1: 2 lives
End of Stage 1: 4 lives
End of 2: 6 lives
End of 3: 7.3 lives
End of 4: 7.3 lives
End of 5: 4 lives
Right before Junko: 2 lives
And I continued on her second spell, but then, I haven't practiced Stage 6 at all.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Formless God on August 14, 2015, 11:34:27 PM
Where are all of you getting the game?
my dad works at shanghai alice
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 14, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
my dad works at shanghai alice

10/10 best explanation
buy me gaem plz

Also LoLK is like UFO 2.0 from the looks of it :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: pokemon123 on August 14, 2015, 11:39:46 PM
10/10 best explanation
buy me gaem plz

Also LoLK is like UFO 2.0 from the looks of it :V
hmm what do you mean? Reminds me of SA the most IMO.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 14, 2015, 11:43:07 PM
hmm what do you mean? Reminds me of SA the most IMO.

Hard but gives a boatload of resources.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Jaimers on August 14, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
P.S. Ahahahaha she
comes back in the extra stage
with TWO exact same attacks as 3rd nonspell, except one of them uses red bullets. One of her spells is a single slow as ass ring. What are you smoking ZUN

For the single ring spellcard I'm pretty sure that the bullets used there are modified big round bullets whose hitbox is their entire sprite.
It's like ZUN really tried to make her as unlikable as possible.
I was quite liking
the Extra stage
until she barged in and took a giant shit on the floor.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Komeiji11 on August 14, 2015, 11:51:24 PM
Speaking of Touhou 12, remember how its stage 6 was a reference to Space Invaders? This stage 6 reminded me of Patchouli's Silent Selene, which is fitting I suppose.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sage Ω (Ultima) on August 15, 2015, 12:10:20 AM
I like the game, but I'm not a fan of the last 2 bosses, sorry ZUN. The first time I legitimately hated a boss in Touhou. Otherwise I'm enjoying it. Still need to warm up to the difficulty though.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Formless God on August 15, 2015, 12:14:53 AM
For the single ring spellcard I'm pretty sure that the bullets used there are modified big round bullets whose hitbox is their entire sprite.
It's like ZUN really tried to make her as unlikable as possible.
I was quite liking
the Extra stage
until she barged in and took a giant shit on the floor.
Ah so that's why the player I was watching just ran all the way to the corner
Yeah everything about her has to be intentional. I still smile every time I remember your bombing festival :ohdear:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 15, 2015, 12:27:08 AM
Too much 'pristine' and 'primordial' on Junko's spellcards, did she meet Raiko?

Also Yukari appears on Marisa's ending, I wonder what does she have to say about all of this
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 15, 2015, 12:44:06 AM
Too much 'pristine' and 'primordial' on Junko's spellcards, did she meet Raiko?
I'm guessing that has to do with her status as a pure, divine spirit.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 15, 2015, 12:47:52 AM
Wow the difficulty in the second half of the game feels all over the place, even on Lunatic. Haven't spent any time in Practice Mode yet, but I don't see myself getting hung up there for too long before I go for a Legacy 1cc, especially with all the resources you can get. Just need to learn which chapters are good for grazing and which are not.

Hmm, yea, the names of Junko's spell cards make it kinda clear that their simplicity is on purpose.

I saw someone say that ZUN said (in the omake?) that another reason for their simplicity was so that people could enjoy purely dodging danmaku just for the sake of danmaku.
If that second line is true, I would counter that by saying
is there even that much there to appreciate to begin with? There comes a point where an attack can be so simple that it's no longer engaging even from a gameplay perspective, and some of Junko's attacks definitely fall into that category. The only exceptions to this IMO are her first two spells and her fourth nonspell (although that last one is still easy, it actually still looks cool despite the simplicity).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Totalheartsboy on August 15, 2015, 01:09:37 AM
Managed to do a 1cc Legacy on Easy mode with Sanae. Woohoo~
Sadly looks like the good ending is only avaible on Normal difficult and above difficults.

In my opinion Stage 4 is quite tricky but if you know how to evade you won't lose lifes.
Kishin Sagume has a difficult non-spellcards specially in the third phase.

Stage 5 is literally lasers that will aim very fast.
Clownpiece has the hardest spells for a 5th Stage character she just won over Shou in hardest spellcards.

And finally while Junko forces you to micro-evade. I love her theme and her apperance, im dont understand yet why many are giving hate to her.

Also i made it past half the extra stage. Manage to pass all of Doremy spell cards. But lost against a fairy before the ex boss.

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Electric Tengu on August 15, 2015, 01:23:17 AM
So I watched Jaimers's playthrough on YouTube. I think his description said it all, but wow, its balancing looks like a bad fangame's. Most of the cards don't look my type at all, I don't like how you beat them by learning their one-off gimmicks rather than using your dodging skills.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on August 15, 2015, 01:34:54 AM
Also, I translated
Junko's
name

純 jun (pure)
狐 ko (fox)

Wow, such creativity
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 15, 2015, 01:39:07 AM
Managed to do a 1cc Legacy on Easy mode with Sanae. Woohoo~
Sadly looks like the good ending is only avaible on Normal difficult and above difficults.

Clownpiece has the hardest spells for a 5th Stage character she just won over Shou in hardest spellcards..
There's actually just a Legacy Ending and a Pointdevice Ending. They're both good ends, but in Legacy ending you're in pretty bad shape despite winning, which makes sense considering most people's legacy wins will come through fifteen deaths and over thirty bombs.

Clownpiece's difficulty actually doesn't rise very much as you turn up the game setting; it's a weird effect where Easy and Normal are crazily hard, but she only gets a tiny bit harder on Hard and Lunatic. Still, for her, even a tiny bit is a difference... but ZUN, I think you've forgotten what easy and normal difficulty mean! XD

One thing that weirds me out is on the higher difficulties,
there's still some spellcards that are strangely super easy, like Junko's one with all the different colored fireballs. Like, compared to everything else it's outright trivial. Maybe ZUN didn't think it's gimmick would be easy to tell? It's just "start at the middle", though...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 15, 2015, 01:48:22 AM
So how does LoLK hard/lunatic compare to UFO and SA?
In difficulty.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Doki-Doki on August 15, 2015, 01:51:57 AM
Welp, took me forever but finally beat normal mode of the game. I must say, I actually enjoyed it pretty damn much. The difficulty was so bloody hard at times but I enjoyed pretty much all the boss fights. Think the new cast of characters especially are impressive as well, nowhere near what I was expecting but I'm pleasantly surprised. And of course, the soundtrack lived up to the hype I had as well. I liked the added electronic feel to some of the tracks, my favorites were definitely the stage 4 and stage 6 themes. Speaking of which,
both Junko's stage theme and her boss theme are some of the best tracks I've heard in the series, I am so damn impressed.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 15, 2015, 01:52:43 AM
Is Clownpiece  second-to-last spellcard even possible? Seriously, it's nuts.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Komeiji11 on August 15, 2015, 01:55:41 AM
From what I can tell
in Marisa's ending Yukari tells her that Sagume is probably an Amanojaku and then Marisa explains the occult stone origin. Then she calls Yukari out by telling her she thought she was supposed to be protecting the boundary but... Then Yukari just says she was busy and I think takes the occult ball Marisa still had with her somehow, hmm... Remember to please take these translations with a grain of salt as I'm still learning...

And I think you have to do legacy for the no miss ending, either that or do perfectly on point device, but I'm pretty sure the game told me to do legacy for the no miss clear.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Formless God on August 15, 2015, 02:11:31 AM
Is Clownpiece  second-to-last spellcard even possible? Seriously, it's nuts.
Ha ha ha imagine if the lasers were curvy
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 15, 2015, 02:22:28 AM
Actually, Junko's fireball card seems harder on Normal than Lunatic.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: SuperVehicle-001 on August 15, 2015, 02:23:11 AM
And I think you have to do legacy for the no miss ending, either that or do perfectly on point device, but I'm pretty sure the game told me to do legacy for the no miss clear.
From what I've read in 4chan, it seems each character has two endings. You get one of them by beating Legacy without getting hit, or more simply by just beating Pointdevice (no extra conditions, just beating Pointdevice). And the other one you get by playing Legacy and getting hit at least once. Apparently they are both good endings.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 15, 2015, 02:27:15 AM
From what I can tell
in Marisa's ending Yukari tells her that Sagume is probably an Amanojaku and then Marisa explains the occult stone origin. Then she calls Yukari out by telling her she thought she was supposed to be protecting the boundary but... Then Yukari just says she was busy and I think takes the occult ball Marisa still had with her somehow, hmm... Remember to please take these translations with a grain of salt as I'm still learning...

Thanks!

I was hoping Yukari would have an explanation.  Even if it's never touched again, good to see ZUN's realized that it's kinda bizarre she hasn't shown up or even talked about any of this stuff going on.  Though I'd prefer if it turns out she really was busy with something even worse...

Surprised it's in Marisa's ending and not Reimu's.  Unless she shows up there too, of course.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 15, 2015, 02:28:17 AM
Is Clownpiece  second-to-last spellcard even possible? Seriously, it's nuts.

up-down-up-down-up-down. Just move before the laser hits your hitbox.


There's already a quality arrange of <><><><> theme on nico, dis fandom..
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ☆ Hinalyte on August 15, 2015, 02:29:24 AM
Is Clownpiece  second-to-last spellcard even possible? Seriously, it's nuts.
The one with double lasers right? I find it easier than the one with lasers and stars.

also >can barely remember the order of Junko's spellcards and what they look like

Finished the game on Pointdevice mode, Marisa A, normal.
Somewhat happy that I unlocked Extra by just that, because I thought you need to play Legacy mode to unlock it.
Game's definitely super-hard. Even harder than SA!

No opinion on the new characters/music yet, lol.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 15, 2015, 02:33:30 AM
Probably I just made a mistake. The spell I'm thinking of is that one with red flame-bullets that looks like they will stop before hitting you or something like that ? I can't read the pattern. Sorry for the trouble tho.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 15, 2015, 02:39:06 AM
The one with double lasers right? I find it easier than the one with lasers and stars.

also >can barely remember the order of Junko's spellcards and what they look like

Finished the game on Pointdevice mode, Marisa A, normal.
Somewhat happy that I unlocked Extra by just that, because I thought you need to play Legacy mode to unlock it.
Game's definitely super-hard. Even harder than SA!

No opinion on the new characters/music yet, lol.

Pointdevice is the actual canon occurrence according to the prologue and demo dialogue (I assume it's not a spoiler if it's going off of info in the demo that's been out for forever now),
so it makes sense that it can unlock the continuation of the story, the Extra Stage
.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 15, 2015, 02:46:15 AM
You know, I'm really glad I suck at danmaku, because to me this was as enjoyable as all other Touhou games. Perhaps even a little more so, since I don't have to worry about restarting the whole game by running out of continues.

Loved the music and the new characters' designs, can't wait to see the main scenarios and their profiles translated.

Surprised it's in Marisa's ending and not Reimu's.  Unless she shows up there too, of course.
In Reimu's Point Device ending, at least, she doesn't. Dunno about Legacy mode.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 15, 2015, 03:09:30 AM
Okay, I stand corrected, getting resources in the second half is actually really hard without Sanae's bomb. I think this is more a case of only one shot-type "breaking" the game as opposed to the resource system itself being too lenient (well, it still is during the first half, but I digress). Technically Reimu's bomb can supergraze too with the right timing, but it's really only useful on bosses since they don't die right away like most enemies do. Hell, even milking some boss attacks for life pieces may not be entirely feasible. I don't have all those attacks sorted out in my head yet though.

And for those who want to keep track of this stuff, if my math is right, there are 82 chapters in the main game: Stage 1 = 11, Stage 2 = 12, Stage 3 = 14, Stage 4 = 13, Stage 5 =17, and Stage 6 = 15. Enough for a whopping 27 extra lives at max, but some chapters are not likely to have enough graze for a life piece, so this number will inevitably be less.

Probably I just made a mistake. The spell I'm thinking of is that one with red flame-bullets that looks like they will stop before hitting you or something like that — I can't read the pattern. Sorry for the trouble tho.
They slow down when you graze them "fully". It's essentially a scoring mechanic integrated into an attack design, which I find pretty cool. Alternate slowing down sets of bullets directly below Clownpiece and to either side (for reference, imagine similar angles to the holes in Attack on Dwarf's pattern). Don't do it too high up though, or else you'll catch too many bullets and you'll have to move even more to the side.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Fulisha of Light on August 15, 2015, 03:30:25 AM
Is it possible at all to do a no death run/ pacifist run for this game or are the bullet patterns too difficult to pass through?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 15, 2015, 04:07:36 AM
So... is the general consensus for
Junko's spell cards a result of ZUN rushing the game or done on purpose to suit her ability
among people here?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 15, 2015, 04:14:09 AM
It's pretty clear it's
because of her ability/personality. Everything in the game apart from her is very... not like that. And even when she pops in in the extra stage, the only part that's like that is her. I agree that a few of her attacks are just too little, although for the most part they're fine.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 15, 2015, 04:15:09 AM
So... is the general consensus for
Junko's spell cards a result of ZUN rushing the game or done on purpose to suit her ability
among people here?

I go with the second one
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Doki-Doki on August 15, 2015, 04:21:53 AM
I go with the second one
Likewise, even if it may have been bland somewhat gameplay-wise, I like the idea of her using straightforward spellcards designed to kill you instead of flaunting flashier prettier spellcards, it reflects on her deadliness as a tactful character pretty damn well.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: pokemon123 on August 15, 2015, 04:22:23 AM
I'd say a bit of both.

ZUN tried to go for a simple feeling but didn't really capture it all that well. As jaimers said i feel like CAVE and other companies do the more "anarchy" thing far better.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 15, 2015, 04:23:02 AM
Just want to ask, since there are people accusing ZUN of rushing out the game that things are like this.

And some are saying because of
who Hecatia is based on and what she is, she's likely more powerful than Eiki, though knowing how the fandom is, most people are probably going to let Yukari and maybe even Yuuka ROFLstomp her in fanworks.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 15, 2015, 05:00:42 AM
The Stage 5 theme is so good. It's a shame it only gets to play for one loop, compared to the endless repetition of <><><><><>'s theme on Pointdevice runs. :U
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 15, 2015, 05:07:13 AM
So... is the general consensus for
Junko's spell cards a result of ZUN rushing the game or done on purpose to suit her ability
among people here?

It's at the very least the second option, but see, that's the one thing I don't get about
Junko's attacks stated as mainly being designed to kill you rather than look flashy
. Isn't every other attack in this game basically like that too, by virtue of their difficulty if nothing else? This could really be extended to danmaku in general - even if plenty of attacks in this game and earlier entries could be considered "not very good" at doing that job, that is still what they're designed to be at their core:
things meant to kill you
. If there was supposed to be a distinction between
Junko and everyone else
, then it pretty much completely falls flat on its face IMO.

The Stage 5 theme is so good. It's a shame it only gets to play for one loop, compared to the endless repetition of Clownpiece's theme on Pointdevice runs. :U
Yeah, I'm steadily warming up to it myself. I'm still not sure how many songs from the second half of the game are really gonna stick with me, but at least this one is off to a good start.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Formless God on August 15, 2015, 05:15:57 AM
Maybe to distinguish from attacks
designed to kill you while looking flashy
.
It also helps that Junko does kill you pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 15, 2015, 05:17:23 AM
It's at the very least the second option, but see, that's the one thing I don't get about
Junko's attacks stated as mainly being designed to kill you rather than look flashy
. Isn't every other attack in this game basically like that too, by virtue of their difficulty if nothing else? This could really be extended to danmaku in general - even if plenty of attacks in this game and earlier entries could be considered "not very good" at doing that job, that is still what they're designed to be at their core:
things meant to kill you
. If there was supposed to be a distinction between
Junko and everyone else
, then it pretty much completely falls flat on its face IMO.

I agree.
There's nothing specifically lethal about Junko or her attacks. It makes sense that they're "pure", but she's not really trying to kill you any more than anyone else is.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 15, 2015, 05:40:32 AM
It's at the very least the second option, but see, that's the one thing I don't get about
Junko's attacks stated as mainly being designed to kill you rather than look flashy
. Isn't every other attack in this game basically like that too, by virtue of their difficulty if nothing else? This could really be extended to danmaku in general - even if plenty of attacks in this game and earlier entries could be considered "not very good" at doing that job, that is still what they're designed to be at their core:
things meant to kill you
. If there was supposed to be a distinction between
Junko and everyone else
, then it pretty much completely falls flat on its face IMO.

My excuse explanation would be that
it's not her "purpose" of killing that makes her pattern simple (although she really wants to kill people) but rather it's her "ability" that makes her pattern simple.
Sorry I can't find a good way to explain this my English sucks, the simplest way I can put is this: her ability purify her bullet pattern
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Channy on August 15, 2015, 05:49:28 AM
I like how the extra stage theme has immediate allusions to Doremi's boss theme.
Maybe Clownpiece also defies the difficulty logic in terms of having easy and normal spellcards being minutely easier than hard and lunatic spellcards. Anyway I hope events in TH16 doesn't get worse (in terms of destroying both Gensokyo and the outside world since even powerful characters from hell are introduced into the series now.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Reu on August 15, 2015, 05:49:42 AM
I agree.
There's nothing specifically lethal about Junko or her attacks. It makes sense that they're "pure", but she's not really trying to kill you any more than anyone else is.
If you ask me, each boss spellcard is based around their respective characteristics/personality, Junko isn't here to play games or do a job, she's here for straight up revenge and has been waiting for this day for quite some time, it's understandable that she doesn't feel the need to/want to think of fancy patterns and really just want you out of the way, especially when she's just the epitome of pure anger at this point.
Hence some of her spellcard names,
This is unlike the other characters even in this game, with Kishin not exactly trying to stop you and ClownPiece just having fun with her patterns.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: aUsernameIsFineToo on August 15, 2015, 05:53:49 AM
After watching a stream by one of our local players last night, I can safely say that ZUN successfully captured the essence of "I Wanna be the Guy" in LoLK. Several spells were simply "grind until you find the right way to advance", which might be a turn-off for some players. Obviously, this is somewhat of a radical departure from the Touhou we're used to, because the mechanics of the game make it feel like some of the side games instead of previous mainline/whole-number games.

Gameplay talk aside, the music (at least from the stream) sounds as good as ever, and I'm sure remixes will come shortly after. Character designs are a mixed bag, though I won't talk about that too much since we all have our own opinions. Graphics are similar to DDC from what I can tell, so that's that.

Needless to say I'm looking forward to buying and playing this game once it starts selling on Playism (or somewhere similar), and by then I'll likely talk a bit about gameplay from my own point of view. I might even post a video of my first playthrough...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 15, 2015, 06:43:14 AM
So in the end Junko didn't get her revenge against Chang'e? that's frustrating I bet. Hopefully Chang'e appears on a future game, wonder how would she look like.

Also I though this is kinda neat, she changes haircolor~ https://40.media.tumblr.com/56b1b09a61dc5fa643f380527ba1cca9/tumblr_nt3g31LRqk1uyyvbbo1_540.png
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 15, 2015, 07:15:40 AM
If you ask me, each boss spellcard is based around their respective characteristics/personality, Junko isn't here to play games or do a job, she's here for straight up revenge and has been waiting for this day for quite some time, it's understandable that she doesn't feel the need to/want to think of fancy patterns and really just want you out of the way, especially when she's just the epitome of pure anger at this point.
Hence some of her spellcard names,
This is unlike the other characters even in this game, with Kishin not exactly trying to stop you and ClownPiece just having fun with her patterns.
That's not really what her personality is like though. If you're playing on Pointdevice mode, she actually gives up before the fight, considering her loss an inevitability. I mean, she's definitely pissed at Chang'e, but she has nothing against anyone else. She made friends with Hecatia, and was sincerely hoping that the Lunar Capital would be able to stop her, because winning so easily would be boring. If you're playing on Legacy mode and have ever died, she taunts you for dying a lot.

Just because she's an embodiment of a grudge doesn't mean she can't think long term.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 15, 2015, 07:16:37 AM
Also I though this is kinda neat, she changes haircolor~ https://40.media.tumblr.com/56b1b09a61dc5fa643f380527ba1cca9/tumblr_nt3g31LRqk1uyyvbbo1_540.png
Hah, she also changes which world goes on her hat, matching the hair color with the planet's color. That's hilarious. We now know why ZUN toned down the level of silly hats in recent games; it was just so we would lower our guards before he unveiled Hecatia here, the absolute Queen of Ridiculous Hats. It's no coincidence that Clownpiece also has a particularly silly hat.

Seriously, Hecatia gives Shikieiki a run for her money in this department.

EDIT: Hm, just realized that the fact that she changes her hair color (and eye color too, it seems) when she changes the world on the top of her hat is likely a reference to the fact that she has three different bodies (one for each of those worlds). That's kinda cool.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 15, 2015, 07:55:18 AM
Hah, she also changes which world goes on her hat, matching the hair color with the planet's color. That's hilarious. We now know why ZUN toned down the level of silly hats in recent games; it was just so we would lower our guards before he unveiled Hecatia here, the absolute Queen of Ridiculous Hats. It's no coincidence that Clownpiece also has a particularly silly hat.

Seriously, Hecatia gives Shikieiki a run for her money in this department.

EDIT: Hm, just realized that the fact that she changes her hair color (and eye color too, it seems) when she changes the world on the top of her hat is likely a reference to the fact that she has three different bodies (one for each of those worlds). That's kinda cool.

not only that, but her danmaku also references the world she's currently, well, using a hat of.  Spirit World spellcards, Earth (Hell) spellcards, Moon spellcards.  She's got all of it!  I guess it makes sense she's using the spirit world hat as the default, since they're fighting in the dream world. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 15, 2015, 08:11:43 AM
not only that, but her danmaku also references the world she's currently, well, using a hat of.  Spirit World spellcards, Earth (Hell) spellcards, Moon spellcards.  She's got all of it!  I guess it makes sense she's using the spirit world hat as the default, since they're fighting in the dream world. 

Agree, and I love this concept very much.
Her bullet color also changes (Both in nonspell and spellcard, but nonspell is more obvious) based on the world.
If I remember correctly, red is spirit world, blue is earth, and yellow is moon.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: GuppyForce on August 15, 2015, 08:24:29 AM
Probably I just made a mistake. The spell I'm thinking of is that one with red flame-bullets that looks like they will stop before hitting you or something like that ? I can't read the pattern. Sorry for the trouble tho.
Pretty much what Funen said but for me I have to dash up and down to create a comfortable enough space to dash out through. Not sure if the difficulty has anything to do with it (I'm playing on normal).

The one spell I can't figure out is the Stage 4 first spellcard. I'm not sure if I'm missing something big here since no one seems to be commenting about it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 15, 2015, 08:25:25 AM
Am I allowed to put pictures of
Clownpiece
in my avatar and signature, or would that be considered spoilers?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 15, 2015, 08:27:04 AM
That's not really what her personality is like though. If you're playing on Pointdevice mode, she actually gives up before the fight, considering her loss an inevitability. I mean, she's definitely pissed at Chang'e, but she has nothing against anyone else. She made friends with Hecatia, and was sincerely hoping that the Lunar Capital would be able to stop her, because winning so easily would be boring. If you're playing on Legacy mode and have ever died, she taunts you for dying a lot.

Just because she's an embodiment of a grudge doesn't mean she can't think long term.

Speaking of mythology, I was actually wondering
sure that Junko's backstory sounds quite sad and all, but in the chinese legend didn't Houyi shoot down the evil suns for good reason?  They were destroying/going to destroy mankind or something like that.  Does the game ever reference what happened, in the touhou-canon?  Because if so, and it's anything like how the legend says, the whole game would be simplified as 'two wrongs don't make a right', heh.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 15, 2015, 08:36:00 AM
Speaking of mythology, I was actually wondering
sure that Junko's backstory sounds quite sad and all, but in the chinese legend didn't Houyi shoot down the evil suns for good reason?  They were destroying/going to destroy mankind or something like that.  Does the game ever reference what happened, in the touhou-canon?  Because if so, and it's anything like how the legend says, the whole game would be simplified as 'two wrongs don't make a right', heh.

Not sure why Houyi shot down the sun in touhou-universe.
But when it says that the sun is Apollo we know that this is definitely not only about chinese legend, other mythology is also involved.
ZUN probably has his own idea on this story. Maybe the ending will explain more, I hope.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 15, 2015, 08:46:34 AM
Am I allowed to put pictures of
Clownpiece
in my avatar and signature, or would that be considered spoilers?
They would be considered spoilers. Please have bit more patience until we announce spoilers are ok, then you may all put / write as you please about the new touhou.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 15, 2015, 08:58:30 AM
After a good night's sleep, final boss and extra stage themes are still stuck in my head. That's a good sign.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 15, 2015, 08:59:59 AM
One of Clownpiece's spell cards immediately reminded me of Rockman II, Quickman's stage.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lanaryu on August 15, 2015, 09:02:27 AM
That moment when you start clearing some of
Clownpiece and Junko's
spellcards on the first run with other characters is absolutely satisfying.

... and I still don't wanna touch Extra.

Knowing the reasoning behind Junko's rather lackluster patterns makes me appreciate her boss battle a little more. I guess thick rings of bullets are considered "the purest form of danmaku" then, though I wish it were something more fun to dodge.
Also holy cow Reisen is the ultimate Kishin smasher. Penetrating bullets can just cheese the whole battle cause of her low HP.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 15, 2015, 09:20:50 AM
They would be considered spoilers. Please have bit more patience until we announce spoilers are ok, then you may all put / write as you please about the new touhou.

Okay.

Thanks for replying  :3

Speaking of, I keep pronouncing her name
Cloudpiece
:V
Clownpiece
for best 2hu 2015
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on August 15, 2015, 09:52:38 AM
One of Clownpiece's spell cards immediately reminded me of Rockman II, Quickman's stage.
Oh wow, Roahm's gonna flip if he plays this. :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Monothemeerp on August 15, 2015, 09:53:04 AM
So I played the full version normal mode pointdevice yesterday and
(http://i.imgur.com/RxLi7Eq.png)

Why.

This is Junko's pixel perfect crap, for the record.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Arcengal on August 15, 2015, 09:58:14 AM
Is Clownpiece  second-to-last spellcard even possible? Seriously, it's nuts.

It's possible. If you see it on easy the gimmick is more obvious. It's still HARD, but it's definitely possible.

Someone please explain to me how you get lives in this game because I can't do a 5-life clear.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maple on August 15, 2015, 10:28:34 AM
Have you noticed that
Clownpiece and Hecatia
have particularly...colorful clothes?
Combined with their respective abilities to
drive someone into madness and having three bodies
, and
Clownpiece's
borderline bullshit danmaku?

LoLK confirmed to be anti American imperialism propaganda.
Not that i complain, though.

So I played the full version normal mode pointdevice yesterday and
(http://i.imgur.com/RxLi7Eq.png)

Why.

This is Junko's pixel perfect crap, for the record.
Nice to know that i got the spell numbers right when editing the wiki.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 15, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Again repeating, no spoilers allowed for now. No names. No pictures. No avatars. No Signatures. No mentions.

Up until now I have been soft moderating people's posts (editing out names) but it seems some people somehow ignore the fact that 95% is using [ spoiler ] tags. It kind of confuses me.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 15, 2015, 11:20:53 AM
I just noticed too late about the avatar thing and switched mine back to my previous one. Oops. x.x
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: 7TC7 on August 15, 2015, 11:32:41 AM
Also I though this is kinda neat, she changes haircolor~ https://40.media.tumblr.com/56b1b09a61dc5fa643f380527ba1cca9/tumblr_nt3g31LRqk1uyyvbbo1_540.png

I'm already sorry, that I made this, but she just looks like she's in some kind of dance pose to me. http://i.imgur.com/k5G8Hy9.gif (http://i.imgur.com/k5G8Hy9.gif)
I kinda rushed it, so no changing planets.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 15, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
Are there any ties between Clownpiece and America besides her design and danmaku? Or is it just a general, random theme?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plastic Vortex on August 15, 2015, 12:43:54 PM
Are there any ties between Clownpiece and America besides her design and danmaku? Or is it just a general, random theme?
Clownpiece's "job" was to annoy the lunarians basically. I'm guessing she thought dressing like American flag was the best idea as the Lunarians don't think very well of the American flag
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TTBD on August 15, 2015, 01:32:40 PM
I'm just gonna say this is LoLK's Extra (and nearly every extra) stage's plot in a nutshell: You visit a place you have before at a later time and for some reason it's WAY more difficult.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: microfolk on August 15, 2015, 01:46:13 PM
It's possible. If you see it on easy the gimmick is more obvious. It's still HARD, but it's definitely possible.

Someone please explain to me how you get lives in this game because I can't do a 5-life clear.

You get one life fragment if you get more than 1 milion bonus points at the end of the chapter. The forumla is: Chapter Graze ? Shooting Down % ? 50, where shooting down is the % of enemies you killed. If you kill all the enemies in a chapter you'll need 200 graze in order to get the fragment. Every phase of a boss fight always nets you 100% shooting down so you'll get tons of life fragments if you try to graze a lot the boss fights. Sanae is great for this, since her bombs gives her tons of time where she's invincible and she can still graze, and since you need three fragments for a life and you get three bombs per life you can see how to abuse this mechanic.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 15, 2015, 02:00:37 PM
You get one life fragment if you get more than 1 milion bonus points at the end of the chapter. The forumla is: Chapter Graze ? Shooting Down % ? 50, where shooting down is the % of enemies you killed. If you kill all the enemies in a chapter you'll need 200 graze in order to get the fragment. Every phase of a boss fight always nets you 100% shooting down so you'll get tons of life fragments if you try to graze a lot the boss fights. Sanae is great for this, since her bombs gives her tons of time where she's invincible and she can still graze, and since you need three fragments for a life and you get three bombs per life you can see how to abuse this mechanic.
Ontop of this, it's important to note if you graze a single bullet for awhile, you'll hear that "tick" noise and get five graze for it. (Basic game mechanics aren't spoilers so w/e)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 15, 2015, 02:44:11 PM
Have you noticed that
Clownpiece and Hecatia
have particularly...colorful clothes?
Combined with their respective abilities to
drive someone into madness and having three bodies
, and
Clownpiece's
borderline bullshit danmaku?



LoLK confirmed to be anti American imperialism propaganda.
Not that i complain, though.
Nice to know that i got the spell numbers right when editing the wiki.

Well they -are- from
hell
.  Makes me wonder how it must be!

I'm already sorry, that I made this, but she just looks like she's in some kind of dance pose to me. http://i.imgur.com/k5G8Hy9.gif (http://i.imgur.com/k5G8Hy9.gif)
I kinda rushed it, so no changing planets.

I just-- I'm so glad you did this.  thank you.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 15, 2015, 02:59:02 PM
Quote
I'm already sorry, that I made this, but she just looks like she's in some kind of dance pose to me.

Hecatia Lapislazuli's
pose honestly looks like to me and reminds me of one of those 1950's diner waitresses who carry trays of food with one hand. like this: http://www.imagekb.com/50s-diner-waitress-hat

"Thank you for coming to the Dreamland Diner. Your order of blue Earth orb and round Moon cheese is ready!"
  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 15, 2015, 03:13:50 PM
About Extra stage last spell - does it change if you shoot Junko instead of Hecatia?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 15, 2015, 03:33:22 PM
About Extra stage last spell - does it change if you shoot Junko instead of Hecatia?

Oh I really wanted to know that as well!  Been searching on youtube and all that but found nothing so far. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 15, 2015, 03:52:46 PM
Hecatia Lapislazuli's
pose honestly looks like to me and reminds me of one of those 1950's diner waitresses who carry trays of food with one hand. like this: http://www.imagekb.com/50s-diner-waitress-hat

Couldn't unsee so I made this xD
http://i.imgur.com/XT3tGjR.png

About Extra stage last spell - does it change if you shoot Junko instead of Hecatia?

It doesn't, Hecatia's pattern are the only that change, but Junko will keep shooting her simple danmaku rings. There are some extra replays on Nico
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 15, 2015, 04:08:38 PM
Having dived into Pointdevice and Legacy, I have to say that
Stage 5's "earthrise" really gave me the chills. Honestly one of the prettiest transitions I've seen in a Touhou background since BOOM, IT'S THE MOON before the boss fight in Stage 4 of Imperishable Night.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 15, 2015, 04:14:18 PM
Yup, just tried
beating Junko instead of Hecatia. 

When you defeat Junko she just explodes and the battle ends, as if you've beat Hecatia instead, and then Hecatia goes to the middle of the screen like how Junko'd do if you'd defeat her.  It feels quite funny since her sprite is right there and yet she's got her defeated cut-in.

The bullets would also reset as I'd hit Junko, but I noticed no difference between the phases whatsoever.

Also: It's quite strange that for her last spellcard Hecatia has behind her Junko's aura.  Wonder if that's a bug or something.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 15, 2015, 04:16:35 PM
I don't think I was paying that much attention in stage 5 because I was too focused on not dying, but stage 5 in general was a pretty nice looking stage for what is essentially the "real" surface of the moon we Outsiders see. It did call to mind a CinemaSins joke, though: "No one who watches the sky for a living sees this shit."

Edit: I just now realized, but
the last two stages take place in the "real" and "fantasy" versions of the Sea of Tranquility, IIRC. That was also where Apollo 11 landed and the American flag planted. Where better for Clownpiece and Junko to set up than right in the spot where humans made their first claim on the Moon to the Lunarians' dismay?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 15, 2015, 04:55:56 PM
See this timer?  (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20150815T19&p0=16&msg=Spoiler+restriction+time+remaining%3A&font=sanserif&csz=1)


Spoilers are allowed after it hits 0:00:00. Meaning we will permit names, signatures, avatars and other media spoiling the new Touhou game.

Ending screenshots remain subject to spoiler tag! Please don't carelessly post them here. Make sure you warn the players about the endings.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 15, 2015, 05:10:18 PM
So I just found a cute bug. It's spoiler free, don't worry: https://gyazo.com/eb91a576ffaef882c06bbb87fc533ca3
Looks like let the title screen's demo play appear creates a point device save for Marisa at the beginning of stage 3. Not sure if that causes the bug, but the save appeared after the demo play so...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lightmaster on August 15, 2015, 05:19:24 PM
I also have found a bug. I dunno if someone else has seen it.

In the stages 5 and 6, sometime the background gets red instead of the normal background. I got it twice. Once in a run of Legacy Mode (where I only made it to Stage 5 and using all the continues) and another one while the stage 5 boss was poundering me in Pointdevice Mode (the bug persisted in Stage 6. It fixed itself when I restarted the game).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: LunaWillow on August 15, 2015, 05:41:03 PM
Something that makes me wonder - why is there no character title for Junko? There's only her name in kanji and romaji, and nothing else... Did ZUN oversee this?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: pokemon123 on August 15, 2015, 05:52:45 PM
Also have a bug. The dialogue is just black boxes. Not too different i guess from Japanese (since i can't read it) but just thought i should say it because kind of worried if the translation comes out. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 15, 2015, 05:54:05 PM
If you look in the omake, she has a "title" in parentheses that means something like "nameless existence", but no true title. Apparently she outright purged her title from herself!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 15, 2015, 06:17:51 PM
Are there still differences in character abilities? I mean like Reimu's smaller hitbox, Marisa's larger graze, etc.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 15, 2015, 06:30:43 PM
If you look in the omake, she has a "title" in parentheses that means something like "nameless existence", but no true title. Apparently she outright purged her title from herself!
Nameless existence, theme of madness, hellish gods and forces in the dream world and space... All we need now are tentacles to have a Lovecraftian story. (Edit: Ooh, ooh, don't forget nightmares!)

*Looks at Junko's "tails"*

... :V

On a more serious note, is it conceivable that Eirin knew about Junko? Clarste's spoilers had this line: "When the protagonists show up with Eirin?s drug, [Sagume] recognizes them as part of Eirin?s plan and lets them pass."
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 15, 2015, 06:33:06 PM
On a more serious note, is it conceivable that Eirin knew about Junko? Clarste's spoilers had this line: "When the protagonists show up with Eirin?s drug, she recognizes them as part of Eirin?s plan and lets them pass."

Ending spoilers (Reisen):
Eirin is well aware of who Junko is, and explains her relationship with Chang'e to Reisen in her Pointdevice ending.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 15, 2015, 06:38:28 PM
Ending spoilers (Reisen):
Eirin is well aware of who Junko is, and explains her relationship with Chang'e to Reisen in her Pointdevice ending.
:getdown: Thanks! Uhm, I'm tempted to ask for the details. :ohdear:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BT on August 15, 2015, 06:41:59 PM
Timer down, eh?

I... uh, I think Extra is a lot harder with Reimu and her dud bomb. I still haven't beaten it.

Having dived into Pointdevice and Legacy, I have to say that
Stage 5's "earthrise" really gave me the chills. Honestly one of the prettiest transitions I've seen in a Touhou background since BOOM, IT'S THE MOON before the boss fight in Stage 4 of Imperishable Night.
Speaking of cool things in Stage 5, Clownpiece's boss theme is the first time ZUN has used pauses. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSHwpiFMAA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m25s) The first time around it gave me chills. I think ZUN has done a great job as far as the soundtrack fitting the atmosphere is concerned - the music in Stage 4 does this well too.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: 7TC7 on August 15, 2015, 06:43:49 PM
I also have found a bug. I dunno if someone else has seen it.

In the stages 5 and 6, sometime the background gets red instead of the normal background. I got it twice. Once in a run of Legacy Mode (where I only made it to Stage 5 and using all the continues) and another one while the stage 5 boss was poundering me in Pointdevice Mode (the bug persisted in Stage 6. It fixed itself when I restarted the game).

Yeah, I had that same bug when playing through the game the first time. Spellcard background showed up fine, but red background in any other case. I first thought that was supposed to happen, because it fit Clownpiece eerily well, but as it transitioned into stage 6, i knew something was wrong. It hasn't happened since then, but that was also the only time I played in fullscreen mode, so maybe it only happens then?
Game also crashes most of the time on the loading screen when starting it in fullscreen. Works fine when I switch it to full screen on the title screen.

Couldn't unsee so I made this xD
http://i.imgur.com/XT3tGjR.png

This is pure gold.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Reu on August 15, 2015, 06:44:31 PM
That's not really what her personality is like though. If you're playing on Pointdevice mode, she actually gives up before the fight, considering her loss an inevitability. I mean, she's definitely pissed at Chang'e, but she has nothing against anyone else. She made friends with Hecatia, and was sincerely hoping that the Lunar Capital would be able to stop her, because winning so easily would be boring. If you're playing on Legacy mode and have ever died, she taunts you for dying a lot.

Just because she's an embodiment of a grudge doesn't mean she can't think long term.

Then that makes this easier, she never really felt like fighting the player in the first place.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 15, 2015, 07:18:40 PM
I don't know if it was noticed, but I feel there's something else that adds to Clown-chan's "MURICA YEAH" vibe besides the flag dress (which looks like pajamas to me, by the way) - isn't her torch somewhat reminiscent of Lady Liberty?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: microfolk on August 15, 2015, 07:22:52 PM
Are there still differences in character abilities? I mean like Reimu's smaller hitbox, Marisa's larger graze, etc.

Reimu still has a smaller hitbox, don't know about the rest of the cast.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Channy on August 15, 2015, 07:26:09 PM
I don't know if it was noticed, but I feel there's something else that adds to Clown-chan's "MURICA YEAH" vibe besides the flag dress (which looks like pajamas to me, by the way) - isn't her torch somewhat reminiscent of Lady Liberty?
Holy craap that's so true, I guess it's ZUN's intention for her to signify double meaning - more probably representing the hell fairy/ jester lore and less probably representing US.

Are there still differences in character abilities? I mean like Reimu's smaller hitbox, Marisa's larger graze, etc.
Yep. Reimu feels safer in stage 6 than other girls ESPECIALLY REISEN'S BOMB


On a side note Junko's gonna appear in many danmakufu practice spellcards now
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 15, 2015, 07:34:49 PM
Playing with Reisen with her giant hitbox vs Junko... yeah no.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nightsparrow on August 15, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
Having dived into Pointdevice and Legacy, I have to say that
Stage 5's "earthrise" really gave me the chills. Honestly one of the prettiest transitions I've seen in a Touhou background since BOOM, IT'S THE MOON before the boss fight in Stage 4 of Imperishable Night.

I haven't quite decided to spoil myself on the second half of the game yet, but having seen the demo, the first half certainly evoked a similar feeling from me with its gradual introduction of the Moon: Stage 1 has it out of sight, then Stage 2 has the scene gradually crept over by eerie moonlight until finally, you come to a clearing over the lake with a serene view of the distant moon in the calm just before the boss battle.

All of this builds up to that one amazing moment just after Doremy's midboss battle where the reflection of the Moon suddenly comes into view, larger than ever, on the border of the dream world. And the stage theme, which had already been brimming with anticipation, is timed perfectly to swell over this part, as if to acknowledge that just a little bit further and the protagonist's destination will be within her grasp.

I don't expect everyone to see it that way, but it was definitely one of the most emotive moments I've seen in a stage portion of the games. And so if there's another moment floating along similar lines somewhere later in the game, I'd be very impressed. I'm happy that ZUN's chosen to incorporate the visuals and music into his design like this.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: not ZUNs wife on August 15, 2015, 07:53:29 PM
I don't know if it was noticed, but I feel there's something else that adds to Clown-chan's "MURICA YEAH" vibe besides the flag dress (which looks like pajamas to me, by the way) - isn't her torch somewhat reminiscent of Lady Liberty?
It is - and the next level thing about that is how the Statue of Liberty is a statue of
Hecate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate). (Yes, I know it's meant to be a statue of Libertas, but the depiction of a spiky-headed woman with torches corresponds with the Greeks' idea of Hecate, oddly enough.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 15, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
I don't know if it was noticed, but I feel there's something else that adds to Clown-chan's "MURICA YEAH" vibe besides the flag dress (which looks like pajamas to me, by the way) - isn't her torch somewhat reminiscent of Lady Liberty?
Well...
Her danmaku is all stars and stripes =P
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Komeiji11 on August 15, 2015, 08:36:35 PM
I know it's already been decided it's intentional, but I just wanted to point out ZUN asked us to enjoy Junko's simple danmaku in her music comments.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 15, 2015, 09:06:53 PM
:getdown: Thanks! Uhm, I'm tempted to ask for the details. :ohdear:

Okay, so I searched through a lot of sources in various languages while trying to get the details straight, but I can't actually read Chinese so I could've easily messed something up? But basically:

There's two broad categories of legends and historical accounts about the archer Hou Yi. One is that he was an immortal man married to Chang'e, and shot down the ten suns. That's probably the one you're more familiar with. The other is that he was a regular man who usurped Prince Kui as the ruler of the Xia Dynasty. He took Kui's wife Xuan Qi (the "Dark Lady") and also killed the child she had with Kui (Bo Feng, known as the Feng Pig on account of being so gluttonous and lazy). Xuan Qi is also referred to in some accounts as Chun Hu ('pure fox'), which happens to be the exact same kanji as Junko's name. Xuan Qi (Chun Hu) later conspired with Hou Yi's minister to kill him. (There's also a tale about Hou Yi having an affair with a river spirit and shooting the monstrous river god she was married to, which angered his wife Chang'e. Which sort of parallels the usurper Hou Yi's narrative? Weird.) Apparently the various disparate tales are an issue even amongst real-world scholars; some sources claim that Chun Hu is a prototypical version of Chang'e, some claim that she started conflict with Chang'e in legend, some say that the usurper Hou Yi took the name of the legendary Hou Yi for himself, others say that the one story was a legend based on the real-world events of the other, etc. etc. etc. It's a bit of a mess.

So in short, Junko is Xuan Qi-- not Xi He as I said earlier, whoops-- and her hatred of Chang'e stems from these two different tales of Hou Yi being conflated with each other. (I... think. If anyone who can, uh, actually read Chinese wouldn't mind looking into this and possibly correcting me, it'd be nice.)

In the ending illustration,
Eirin's speech bubble contains a little diagram of the relationships here. Hou Yi is in the 'sun' region, with lines connecting him to Chang'e on the moon and Junko on the Earth. Another line branching off from Junko and Hou Yi's connects to a 'child' icon (which I'm guessing is meant to be Bo Feng,) and then there's an arrow pointing from Yi to the child labeled 'killed'.
Would it be bad if I posted a link to a screenshot of it? Not the full illustration, mind, just the one part.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lishy1 on August 15, 2015, 09:22:52 PM
Any legal way to buy this yet?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Mero on August 15, 2015, 10:01:53 PM
I must say I'm rather impressed I haven't found a Clownpiece image I like better than ZUN's official one even if she's missing her right thumb
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 15, 2015, 10:02:12 PM
Something that makes me wonder - why is there no character title for Junko? There's only her name in kanji and romaji, and nothing else... Did ZUN oversee this?

Her profile says she purified herself of identifying information.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 15, 2015, 10:09:18 PM
I must say I'm rather impressed I haven't found a Clownpiece image I like better than ZUN's official one even if she's missing her right thumb

Sounds to me like you're down with the clown.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: 7TC7 on August 15, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
There is at least a pretty good arrange of Pierrot of the Star-Spangled Banner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1OF3AWALhU) already. That's quite fast. Usually it's only Piano and Bit-Remixes for the first few days.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 15, 2015, 11:10:01 PM
--snippity-snip-snip--
Wow, thanks a lot! I haven't seen the legendary/historical account of Xuan Qi brought up elsewhere, so this is really enlightening.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on August 15, 2015, 11:23:42 PM
Does anyone have a scorefile with Practice Stage 6 for Reisen and Marisa unlocked (any difficulty will do)?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 15, 2015, 11:39:43 PM
It's really a shame Pointdevice mode doesn't save a replay. It'd be really impressive to watch a "perfect" run of the game.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 15, 2015, 11:49:11 PM
What I like most about Pointdevice is I can play to a certain point, exit at a chosen waypoint, and then pick up from there later. It's a good way to meet the cast, too, if you just want to spam on through.

Which reminds me, I need to find out how their endings differ from Legacy, if at all. I honestly haven't checked.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: WHMZakeri on August 15, 2015, 11:52:23 PM
It's really a shame Pointdevice mode doesn't save a replay. It'd be really impressive to watch a "perfect" run of the game.

This was one of the things I was looking forward to and disappointed by in this game. It would be very interesting to watch, and of course it's already anti-cheating since the Power count could be used as an mpromptu death counter.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: lonemaestro on August 16, 2015, 12:09:00 AM
I'm a sucker for the story throughout the Touhou series. Here's the boss dialogues in Reimu's scenario that are yet to be translated on Touhouwiki. Don't judge. Did this in Legacy Easy Mode just to get to the dialogues faster, PointDevice mode just takes too long. Endings not included.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22967107/Share/dialogue.html
Take it with a grain of salt cause Japanese isn't my native tongue.

The story itself leaves so many questions unanswered and we're left with the characters frantically trying to outwit each other. But while all this is going on Touhou-esque music playing in the background. Whatever. I'll take it. It's good enough for a Touhou fan who already lives and die by the bullets (and frills) like myself.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: NuclearFalcon on August 16, 2015, 12:33:13 AM
After reading Gilde's post I see that the plot thickens.  Figuring this stuff out from accounts of various players, translations, and folklore research has been rather interesting.  And wow, I have already had some of my theories jossed.  XD

But wow... 
Junko got royally screwed over in the past...  Poor lady, when I was watching a play through without knowing her story she had the most interesting design to me so I started digging and found that she has probably the saddest backstory of any of the Touhou characters, including Yuyuko.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 16, 2015, 12:37:58 AM
Haha wow, since Extra is played like Legacy and therefore like any other Extra, it almost feels underwhelming next to the madness of Pointdevice Clownpiece and Junko...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: RaiTo on August 16, 2015, 12:40:34 AM
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 16, 2015, 12:43:15 AM
Haha wow, since Extra is played like Legacy and therefore like any other Extra, it almost feels underwhelming next to the madness of Pointdevice Clownpiece and Junko...

Yeah Clownpiece in Pointdevice was photog game levels of nerve-wracking for me.

On a purely cosmetic note, I think the costumes in this game are a step above, especially in the later game.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: not ZUNs wife on August 16, 2015, 12:43:58 AM
The lore in this game cuts really deep this time. It's a complex gambit pileup of several powerful factions, to an extent not seen before in the games. A lot of loose ends from the previous canon are brought up in the process, IN+Bougetsushou and ULiL most importantly.

Another random thought: I love the minimalism of the final boss's attacks. Every bullet is lethal with little decoration or gimmicks. It's really zen, like "essence of danmaku" stuff. The fight feels to me like a celebration of 20 years of Touhou.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 16, 2015, 12:44:32 AM
Wait...

Does the existence of Clownpiece mean Cirno's no longer the strongest fairy?

Also how does legacy on hard/lunatic compare to SA and UFO?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Komeiji11 on August 16, 2015, 12:48:56 AM
Any tips on handling Junko's snake show-esque attack? I understand the general how-to for all the others but that one for me is just killer...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lightmaster on August 16, 2015, 01:30:32 AM
In between the purple lasers, you have to be on the right of the nearest laser, so the upward one doesn't catch you. With the red ones is the same process, but in the opposite side. Maybe that's the best tip I can give you, I dunno? I only have played on Normal mode.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 16, 2015, 01:47:28 AM
But wow... 
Junko got royally screwed over in the past...  Poor lady, when I was watching a play through without knowing her story she had the most interesting design to me so I started digging and found that she has probably the saddest backstory of any of the Touhou characters, including Yuyuko.
Do elaborate if you don't mind, because Junko's morality (or lack thereof) is exactly what I'm heavily pondering at the moment.

It might be me just having wonky sources due to inability to rely on the translated dialougie itself, but doesn't her motive involve
Hou Yi, Chang'e's husband, accidentally killing her family in the process of removing excess suns from the sky that spread calamity upon the land
? I still find it pretty hard to justify her going for
revenge against Chang'e herself  (who is imprisoned *and* hourai immortal) and driving the Lunarians out of their home by poisoning it with impurity  (indirectly putting Sagume's backup "genocide-and-take over Gensokyo with Lunar Capital Occult Ball" plan into motion in the process), then going to harrass the Lunarians that took shelter in the Dream World further with Hecatia for some reason once the heroine stopped her initial plan
with a sob story that shouldn't even put any blame on Chang'e herself. That seems like going to insane lengths for some badly misplaced, undeserved and pointless vengeance.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 16, 2015, 01:53:45 AM
Wait...

Does the existence of Clownpiece mean Cirno's no longer the strongest fairy?

Depends if Clownpiece is really meant to be that strong or
just a rapresentation of the whole infinite mass of fairies on the Moon (and the whole "stage level not equaling power level" thing), if she still counts as a fairy after Junko purified her, and if those hell fairies are actually the same as normal fairies (since they might come from a different mythology).
However, this is interesting because Cirno was strong enough to be dangerously close to become something different from a fairy, so assuming Clownpiece is actually that powerful and still considered a fairy, she probably would have gone beyond that level, becoming a youkai or some other thing.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 01:57:08 AM
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?

I think her power is way more subtle and situational than the broad description in her profile.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 16, 2015, 01:59:59 AM
Does anyone have a scorefile with Practice Stage 6 for Reisen and Marisa unlocked (any difficulty will do)?

Here (https://mega.nz/#!rQ1WQAqZ!QkZbzdhuOJN80oU0MJFGazTw2xBFaOGeayGxMA_NreA) my own score. Normal Pointdevice cleared with all the girls ? Have fun!

Then going to harrass the Lunarians that took shelter in the Dream World further with Hecatia for some reason once the heroine stopped her initial plan with a sob story that shouldn't even put any blame on Chang'e herself.

Isn't really "for some reason". If I'm not mistaken, Lunarians kept living on a dreamy version of Lunar Capital, so Chang'e was -still- imprisoned. Using Hecatia's fairies to harass Lunarians even on the Dream World would make them move to Earth ? while on "real" transit Junko could be able to attack Chang'e.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 16, 2015, 02:05:55 AM
Junko's omake profile has been translated (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Junko#Official_Profiles) on the wiki, and it sheds light on certain things about Chang'e. It confirms that she is one of the Moon's people, a goddess, and a criminal for drinking the Hourai Elixir. Coupled with the fact that she is extremely powerful, the latter bit implies that she is also immortal. (lol sorry, Junko---it's a lost cause.)

I'm led to think that Chang'e was exiled to Earth as punishment, where she then married Hou Yi. (Reisen ending spoilers)
Junko's tragedy followed after, and I believe this explains why she is in the Earth region in Eirin's diagram.

This brings up a question, namely, why would the People of the Moon want someone tainted with kegare back? I've always thought their retrieval attempt of Kaguya was a mild inconsistency in favour of narrative faithfulness, but now it's clear that that is certainly not the case. (ZUN, you are amazing.) This also brings up the somewhat awkward question of why they even tried executing the princess... It might have to do with their status (goddess vs princess). Either that, or they did it for the lulz.

This then leads me to the question of what kind of goddess Chang'e is. Her profile states that she is a 月の女神 "goddess of the moon," and that she "rules over the moon rabbits." Does this mean she's a goddess of THE moon itself (making her very important), of the moon rabbits (also important because the Capital needs slav-- workers), or does it simply indicate that she's one of the many gods living there?

For someone rarely mentioned and never seen, Chang'e has certainly caused quite a stir.



I posted this in the previous thread, but I feel like pointing it out again:
Junko vs Chang'e seems like a rehash of Mokou vs Kaguya, i.e., ordinary being turns extraordinary due to loss of family and extenuating circumstances (in)directly caused by the other, becomes pure and a force aligned with fire (sun), and seeks unbridled vengeance on a lunar maiden, who is tainted with kegare due to consuming the Elixir of Immortality, and is imprisoned in a cage of purity, shunned by her people.

It feels like Imperishable Night and Bougetushou all over again!

Edit: Got ninja'd in some parts. :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 16, 2015, 02:21:34 AM
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?
As Clastre said, her power is subtle; if I understood it right, if she, for instance, says "the sky is red", it won't just magically turn the sky red, but not too long after a weird weather phenomenon will happen and the sky will turn red.

For all we know, she did use it, and the result was the chain of events that led to the player character going up to the moon to defeat Junko.

This also brings up the somewhat awkward question of why they even tried executing the princess... It might have to do with their status (goddess vs princess). Either that, or they did it for the lulz.
Kaguya was the very first person to drink it, right? Maybe they were just trying to make absolute sure that she couldn't be killed. If Chang'e took the Elixir after Kaguya's banishment, they'd already know that executing her was impossible and just skipped to the banishing part.

As for why they would want her back... if she is the goddess of the rabbits, maybe the rabbits refused to work with her gone?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Marron on August 16, 2015, 02:30:03 AM
Lonemaestro: Hey, thank you for the translation man, I don't understand japanese so it help. : )

Nuclearfalcon:
I won't say that she's more tragic than Yuyuko, but that's right, she have one of a sad story in gensokyo ! It's strange, you know, how she suppressed her anger ? It somehow feel like she still have it. She kind of make me think of an Ex-Parsee, because of the face and because of the fact that she seems alright at the first sight, then you see something is really wrong with her..

By the way, the extra crash just after the boss spellcard. Someone's having the same problem . . . ?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 16, 2015, 03:00:10 AM
Kaguya was the very first person to drink it, right? Maybe they were just trying to make absolute sure that she couldn't be killed. If Chang'e took the Elixir after Kaguya's banishment, they'd already know that executing her was impossible and just skipped to the banishing part.
I was under the impression that Chang'e drank it first. Kaguya is said to have lived for at least 1300 years, whereas Rei'sen (Reisen II) stated in CiLR Chapter 6 that they've been "pounding away [for Chang'e] for thousands of years." If we go by their actual legends, Taketori Monogatari is from the 10th century. As for Chang'e's, I can't find a time range, but the Guizang text contains a story of her, and it is said to "had been lost for roughly two thousand years."

As for why they would want her back... if she is the goddess of the rabbits, maybe the rabbits refused to work with her gone?
Actually, I just found out that Chang'e really is the Chinese goddess of the Moon. But to answer your question, that could also be true. However, if Rei'sen's thoughts are to go by, they don't seem to give much thought to their mistress... They treat the pounding now as mere routine.

Edit: Typo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 16, 2015, 03:13:12 AM
I was under the impression that Chang'e drank it first. Kaguya is said to have lived for at least 1300 years, whereas Rei'sen (Reisen II) stated in CiLR Chapter 6 that they've been "pounding away [for Chang'e] for thousands of years." If we go by their actual legends, Taketori Monogatari is from the 10th century. As for Chang'e's, I can't find a time range, but the Guizang text contains a story of her, and it is said to "had been lost for roughly two thousand years."
It might've been just hyperbole. After all, the Elixir wouldn't exist at all if not for Kaguya's whim. I don't think Eirin would've completed it and then given a sample to Chang'e before giving it to Kaguya.

Actually, I just found out that Chang'e really is the Chinese goddess of the Moon. But to answer your question, that could also be true. However, if Rei'sen's thoughts are to go by, they don't seem to give much thought to their mistress... They treat the pounding now as mere routine.
She's the Goddess of the Moon in chinese mythology, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's the same here. Also, Junko's profile does say "[Chang'e] rules over the moon rabbits", so I'd guess that this is her primary function here.
Maybe they just care that she's in the moon at all? Or maybe they become useless if she's away from them. Well, we don't really have much to go on here.

Now for something unrelated:

I've been trying to figure out why the Lunarians couldn't actually fight back against Junko's plan...

It seems, going by Toyohime's fan, that the Lunarian weapons are based around purifying impure things, which appears to completely destroy them. Since any other kind of death would invite impurity, I assume they don't actually have weapons that don't work this way. Therefore, since Junko purified the fairies to turn them into "pure lifeforce", the Lunarians weapons would be unable to do anything against them, since they aren't impure at all. And of course, killing fairies in general is impossible since they just respawn, so any other method of getting rid of them would be useless. And furthermore, since they are basically terraforming the moon, it's too risky for the Lunarians to even try to leave the capital.

Does this make any sense?

At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 16, 2015, 03:20:18 AM
I actually couldn't imagine the Watatsukis sleeping in the Dream World given the situation  :V

I hope Yuke makes a fanmade phantasm with them on it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 03:37:44 AM
At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

Reisen's reaction to this is mildly amusing.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 16, 2015, 03:40:13 AM
It might've been just hyperbole. After all, the Elixir wouldn't exist at all if not for Kaguya's whim. I don't think Eirin would've completed it and then given a sample to Chang'e before giving it to Kaguya.
Sorry, too many theories in my head, I don't know what's what anymore. :derp: So I'll just leave this here:

Wasn't Kaguya's power over eternity needed to make the elixir in the first place?
This was my argument, which I supported with the mistranslation explained in the first. With the mistranslation clarified, this is still a high possibility - I think the purpose of the IN spell card "Hourai Elixir" is to show us that Eirin needs Kaguya's power to make the elixir. But it's no longer guaranteed to be true.



Well, we don't really have much to go on here.
I agree. Let's leave it at that.

And thanks, Sagus!



It's amusing that the real incident is the opposite of it was thought to be, i.e., instead of "living place turning lifeless", it's actually "lifeless place given life."

And Junko should make friends with Yukari---they have certain interests in common.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Frogmask on August 16, 2015, 03:53:47 AM
Hey, I'm new posting here but...
I feel like I have some info regarding what
Junko
is based on.

http://baike.baidu.com/subview/3030763/18618636.htm
It appears there's a legend where she was married to Houyi before he became an archer.
(Oh, and Junko is a pun on the common Japanese name Junko (純子) and the Chinese pronunciation of 純狐 as Ch?n h? or something along those lines, I think.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Honoakari on August 16, 2015, 04:20:39 AM
I've been wondering about this for a while, but why do we call 嫦娥 'Chang'e' instead of 'Jouga' (Japanese reading)? ZUN even spells her name in hiragana at some point during LoLK.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 04:29:05 AM
Probably momentum at this point. We often translate Buddhist terms into Sanskrit too. I guess the idea is that as translators we're not beholden to the Japanese names of things that don't originate in Japan. Chang'e is just more familiar.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on August 16, 2015, 04:46:29 AM
Also, the Chinese Lunar Exploration Program (a.k.a. Chang'e Program) was mentioned in SSiB Chapter 2 along side Chang'e herself, so that probably influenced the translation.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 16, 2015, 05:42:38 AM
Therefore, since Junko purified the fairies to turn them into "pure lifeforce", the Lunarians weapons would be unable to do anything against them, since they aren't impure at all. And of course, killing fairies in general is impossible since they just respawn, so any other method of getting rid of them would be useless. And furthermore, since they are basically terraforming the moon, it's too risky for the Lunarians to even try to leave the capital.

There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?

At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V

This is true tho and it is the best thing
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 16, 2015, 06:01:20 AM
Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 16, 2015, 06:09:18 AM
Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.

#2, at least, is definitely the case. (I would assume it's technically based on whether you get hit or not, but that's pretty much the same thing unless you do a no-miss Legacy run.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 06:37:02 AM
There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?

Lifeforce is impurity. Life is death is kegare. So fairies inherently represent kegare. As you note, Junko's power just intensifies things that already exist. Fairies are already threatening to the moon, and she made them more threatening.

The confusion stems only from using the word "impurity" for "kegare". The fairies on the moon are made of pure impurity, which just sounds silly.

Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.

Based on how the dialog differs, I would assume the no-miss dialog and ending on Legacy is the same as the Pointdevice dialog and ending. Basically, Junko's attitude towards you changes depending on if you've ever died or not, and plot-wise it's impossible to die on Pointdevice mode. It's not a super-secret special ending, it's just that the Legacy endings assume you've died at some point.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 16, 2015, 08:15:15 AM
Are there also bad endings? I had a terrible run today on legacy and wanted to test it out, but I ran out of continues during Junko's final spell  :(
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 08:37:29 AM
Do we know Sagume's stage 4 boss gimmick?  Or is she like Aya and Minamitsu, having no gimmicks?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 16, 2015, 08:40:14 AM
Do we know Sagume's stage 4 boss gimmick?  Or is she like Aya and Minamitsu, having no gimmicks?

She uses familiars, in a similar way to Orin (though Kishin's don't revive). Not exactly unique, but she uses them so extensively that it's definitely a theme in her danmaku.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 08:44:38 AM
Every single enemy in stage 4 is one of her magical orbs (because there's no life or death there: no fairies or spirits). All but one of her spellcards is Orb Sign "X". So yeah, her orb familiars are definitely her gimmick.

By the way, ZUN seems to have gotten it backwards at the top of the screen, but her given name is Sagume, and everyone else in the story always calls her Sagume. And... her name actually comes up more often than anyone else's, probably. I find it kind of disorienting to see people calling her Kishin, even though I can understand why.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 16, 2015, 09:10:35 AM
So just for Clarification, and mainly because I think basically nobody's talked about it in depth, but Sagume really
is in the end the one true culprit of ULiL?

She'd certainly be one cool final boss! 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Margatron on August 16, 2015, 09:13:17 AM
Do elaborate if you don't mind, because Junko's morality (or lack thereof) is exactly what I'm heavily pondering at the moment.

It might be me just having wonky sources due to inability to rely on the translated dialougie itself, but doesn't her motive involve
Hou Yi, Chang'e's husband, accidentally killing her family in the process of removing excess suns from the sky that spread calamity upon the land
?

Your description is inaccurate.
In this game, Zun merged two different men in Chinese mythology/history: Yi, and Hou Yi as the same person. The former was the husband of Chang'e and shot off 9 suns, while the latter was married to someone with the name of Junko(Chun Hu in Chinese) in some version of the myths.
Now, in this game, what seemed to happen is that -- Yi is a man (mortal man seemingly) who basically had a romantic past with both ladies. And eventually he killed the son of his and Junko's. This is what drove her mad. Since Yi died somehow, she focused her entire being on getting revenge on Chang'e, and in the process forgot/let go of anything else, such as her "title" (nameless existence) etc. She basically became the Spirit of Desire (the floaty light orbs in TD) with the sole purpose of vengeance to Chang'e.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tsalop on August 16, 2015, 09:22:53 AM
I just completed the game in Easy using the Point Device-mode and here are some of my thoughts...
Personally this game is much harder than SA, as even though PD gives you unlimited tries, you can easily get stuck on the bosses if you do not have bombs.
Also Clownpiece and Junko ar pure murder with their ridiculous survival spells and thigh bullet gaps... I can only imagine how fun it will be to graze them with Marisa and Sanae who move much faster than Reimu.

Music-wise I think this is an excellent game and I really like how the different tunes fitted the levels, however as I kept dying over and over again I had a little of a change to enjoy the music when I was playing the game.

Story however, albeit being a good one, was overly complicated compared to the stories in earlier games... Of course there is a possibility that I have misunderstood what is going on as I don't really know Japanese that well:
One random lunarian wants to beat another random lunarian, so she gangs up with hell fairies and a sandman to drive rest of the lunarians to exile in the dream world...
Of course the lunarians do not like dream world so they decide to expand their borders to the Gensokyo what causes our heroines to take action...
In the end Reimu and co. beat up everyone with Erin's shady drug and lunarians return back to the Moon and that one lunarian never got her revenge (?)

Well, then I am waiting with great anticipation to see a video where someone  beats this game in Lunatic using Legacy-mode.





Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: LunaWillow on August 16, 2015, 09:43:31 AM
Well, then I am waiting with great anticipation to see a video where someone  beats this game in Lunatic using Legacy-mode.
Here it is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDaSw4E9-xM) :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: N-Forza on August 16, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
translations
kegare
I see no translation here.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tsalop on August 16, 2015, 09:55:15 AM
Here it is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDaSw4E9-xM) :V
I have found myself a new hero.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 09:56:03 AM
So just for Clarification, and mainly because I think basically nobody's talked about it in depth, but Sagume really
is in the end the one true culprit of ULiL?

She'd certainly be one cool final boss!

Yes, she made the orbs, and the whole urban legend thing was an extension of her power. I don't think it's clear if she intended Sumireko to get involved though, or if that was just an unrelated accident.

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

I'm not really complaining or anything, but she's just written as the centerpiece of the entire game.

I see no translation here.

The problem is that our translation of kegare ("impurity") becomes confusing when "purity" is now a thing in the latest game.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 10:04:09 AM
I'm seeing quite a lot of "rushed games" accusations out there, or in the very least accusations about
Junko's "messy and terrible" spell cards[/spoilers].
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Espadas on August 16, 2015, 11:05:44 AM
At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V

I wasn't able to check MotK for a few days.... when i'm finally back i rush to read everything then suddenly THIS.
Reaction sequence:

- bland staring trying to puzzle out if the statement is true
- small smirk
- Huge smile while thinking "ZUN, you magnificent ba$tard!"
- Trying to recover a normal look after a "What are you smiling like a loon at?" from my lil' brother.....

Sagus, i hate you  :D

On another matter: this seems to be setting up a new "trilogy" like when the Moriyas appeared.... too many people's situations are still left in the air: a good portion of the girls in LoLK are now stranded or what? What about Junko herself?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: N-Forza on August 16, 2015, 11:11:14 AM
The problem is that our translation of kegare ("impurity") becomes confusing when "purity" is now a thing in the latest game.
So let's come up with another term. Give me some time to recover from Comiket fatigue and I'll be more than happy to spitball a few alternatives.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Espadas on August 16, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
So let's come up with another term. Give me some time to recover from Comiket fatigue and I'll be more than happy to spitball a few alternatives.

Maybe something like "contamination" or "pollution"?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 16, 2015, 11:20:55 AM
Yes, she made the orbs, and the whole urban legend thing was an extension of her power. I don't think it's clear if she intended Sumireko to get involved though, or if that was just an unrelated accident.

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

Maybe Sagume is mentioned so much isn't just because she's heavily involved with the plot but because well, unlike other games where the final boss battle happens and then Reimu has tea with them, Junko still shows up with Hecatia in the extra stage. 

Speaking of which, I've only seen like two endings (haven't played that much heh), but does anyone from the actual game (other than Sagume) appear in any of them at all? 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 11:34:23 AM
Speaking of which, I've only seen like two endings (haven't played that much heh), but does anyone from the actual game (other than Sagume) appear in any of them at all?

Ringo shows up in one of Reimu's endings. ...And Tewi shows up in her other one, so I guess Reimu just attracts rabbits.

Assuming there are 8 total, I've seen all but one, and so far Ringo's the only new character who shows up. Most of them are "debriefing" scenes where they talk to the people they know about what happened on the moon. Sagume doesn't actually show up either, they just talk about her a lot.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 16, 2015, 11:37:20 AM
Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue in this game. 3/4 of the pointdevice endings involve people talking about her (
Kanako recognizes her name, Eirin praises her intelligence, and Yukari reminds Marisa to keep in mind that she met her... for some reason
). She's super-smart, super-strong, but also kind and unwilling to enact the genocide plan that she came up with herself. The heroes win because Sagume altered their fate in some way to make them win.

I'm not really complaining or anything, but she's just written as the centerpiece of the entire game.

Sagume confirmed for avatar of Ki-san
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Doki-Doki on August 16, 2015, 11:38:50 AM
Alright, after fully beating the game I can happily say I've finally gotten used to the soundtrack. The space-ish feel of the songs felt weird at first but after listening to
Clownpiece and Hecatia's themes over and over again
I've developed a hell of a lot of appreciation for them. Not only that, but
I feel ZUN truly outdid himself with Junko's stage and boss theme, the former was a beautiful melancholic theme that probably relates to Junko's backstory, absolutely beautiful. But her boss theme, bloody hell, it sounded absolutely fantastic. It sounded like a mix of spacey-ness and royal power, it was such a weird combination that worked off really well.
All in all the ost lived up to my hype.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 11:55:35 AM
At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.
Those fairies come from
hell
.  Do not underestimate the power of
hell
.

And I thought Cirno being the strongest is simply a joke people throw around for laughs?  When did people start acting as if she is legitimately and officially the strongest fairy in the series?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Doki-Doki on August 16, 2015, 11:56:43 AM
Do not underestimate the power of
hell.

And I thought Cirno being the strongest is simply a joke thrown around for laughs?  When did people start acting as if she is legitimately and officially the strongest fairy in the series?
Well considering what she did in GFW and UNL, she pretty much actually became one of the strongest from how she beat people WAY more powerful than her, e.g. Marisa.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 11:58:09 AM
You have to consider if those people are actually using their full power when they fought her and if the real reason they lost was because they played around with her too much and got careless.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Doki-Doki on August 16, 2015, 12:01:33 PM
You have to consider if those people are actually using their full power when they fought her and if the real reason they lost was because they played around with her too much and got careless.
Marisa did say she was holding back, but did admit even if she was using her proper strength she'd have difficulty with Cirno.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 12:03:18 PM
Being the strongest doesn't necessary mean her attacks are more powerful.  I see it as Cirno actually acting smart for once and coming up with tactics that help her overcome her enemies rather than do stuff like unleashing a "I believe in myself and must win" kind of attack.

Take Batman for example: he's strong, but not because every time he throws a punch, buildings fall apart and islands explode.  He may be a talented fighter, but the real reason he's strong is because he's very smart, well prepared, and resourceful.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 16, 2015, 12:25:56 PM
Plus let's face it, Cirno was basically cheating in GFW by freezing Danmaku.  Power level discussions are tough (and forbidden I think?) but she's got that one silly gimmick up her sleeve.

That being said, I really wanna see more of both Clownpiece and Hecatia.  I dunno why but I really liked them and their goofy western inspired designs. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Darkness1 on August 16, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
Marisa did say she was holding back, but did admit even if she was using her proper strength she'd have difficulty with Cirno.
That and I think it was actually Cirno's clothes that were torn in their dialogue, instead of the other way around, which I find kind of funny.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 16, 2015, 01:22:36 PM
In stage 6, when the blue rain starts to fall and the music swells just in time for Earth to come back into view... legit chills. What a moment that is.

So spells like Junko's final spell (her ACTUAL final spell, that is) usually have some kind of "no, you can't just time it out" phase that comes into play at the end. I can't survive it long enough to find out (btw, Practice mode has continues now...) but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the horrors of the 10 second countdown.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 16, 2015, 01:25:22 PM
The reason extra stage is only in regular mode is
because the medicine stopped it's effects after the final boss, so no more "seeing the future" ability for the characters
?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 16, 2015, 01:56:07 PM
Are there also bad endings? I had a terrible run today on legacy and wanted to test it out, but I ran out of continues during Junko's final spell  :(

No. I continued 5 times on Normal and still apparently got a good ending.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 16, 2015, 01:59:06 PM
There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?
Ah, I see... it might be, then, that just the fact that they were fairies made them unable to be destroyed. I guess that even if the Lunarians purifying weapons killed them, they'd just respawn. Or they were so impure that the Lunarians couldn't get close, as you said. Or a bit of both.

Well considering what she did in GFW and UNL, she pretty much actually became one of the strongest from how she beat people WAY more powerful than her, e.g. Marisa.
She didn't beat Marisa; you can see from the post battle portraits that Cirno's the one who's all beaten up, and the newspaper clipping about the event in SoPM shows that, although she put up a good fight, she still lost:
Quote from: Hatate
Even though I wouldn't be super concerned if the human were to lose by some chance, the match got nowhere near that point, and I realized how far humankind had come.
It also shows that Marisa was both drunk and using a flashlight to fight instead of her mini-hakkero, which reinforce just how low-level fairies are compared to the cast.

She did, however, survive Okuu, so she's certainly a pretty damn strong fairy.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Suspicious person on August 16, 2015, 03:44:10 PM
Ah, I see... it might be, then, that just the fact that they were fairies made them unable to be destroyed. I guess that even if the Lunarians purifying weapons killed them, they'd just respawn. Or they were so impure that the Lunarians couldn't get close, as you said. Or a bit of both.
I don't think the Lunarians themselves would have a serious problem when faced with impurity, rather it's something that must not affect the Lunar capital. Just saying, but this is not the first time fairies were brought to the Moon : in SSiB, Remi's fairy maids were brought on the Moon also, and Yorihime had no problem being in their vicinity. If we don't give "pure" a holy-like connotation, "pure" is basically the 100%, the wholesome, the homogenous, the untainted ; therefore "pure" does not admit change (say for example a plebeian marrying into a royal bloodline : the result of the union won't be as "pure" as the bloodline) ; "impure" is the mish-mash of various things and admit change, it can include things that have nothing to do with the original thing, it admit change (IMO) ; "life" necessarily imply "death", they come together : Lunarians deem "life" impure because of that : for example, the Udonge flower is a flower that only grow when tainted with "impurity", meaning that this flower being in the lunar capital makes no sense since it can't grow there, yet there it is, used as an impurity detector of sorts. The Lunarians's fear of impurity is actually pretty legitimate because if "life" tainted the Lunar capital, life and death cycle would apply, and might threaten the long, presumably prosperous lifestyle of the Lunarians (I think that is also why Yorihime found Reimu's corruption attack in SSiB more threatening than the rest).

Anyway, my point is that the life-force is what they considered as impure. Regardless, fairies are still life-force whether it gets boosted or not. I assume it might as well be radiation for Lunarians ? Still, Yorihime and Toyohime have been on Earth (In the Bougetsuhou 4koma), which is filled with life-force / impurity (I?d rather use ?kegare? for more religious stuff cuz confusions) and they were pretty fine there (plus the fairy maids earlier).

What I meant to say is that impurity is not instakill for Lunarians, they just don?t want it in their Capital. Also, it should be pretty silly of the Moon to design weapons that are ineffective against the very thing they hate the most ; their weapons should affect (as in ?kill?) fairies but won?t do anything toward the lifeforce they bring with them. The Lunarian?s purification (not Junko?s) might just be a sugarcoated way of saying mass murder, the kind which kill the land so dead even the grass won?t grow anymore. Damn fancy words?

I guess there?s gonna be a lot of confusion on the kind of definition of ?pure? and ?impure? that are going to be used this time, but there is certainly more than one.


On an unrelated note, the ending is fairly more accessible for this one, despite the difficulty. I take it it?s gonna extend into something else ? I mean, c?mon it?s ZUN?s oh so beloved Moon saga !  :V This can't be the last we hear of this Sagume person

Honestly, Sagume is almost, dare I say it, a Mary Sue
... I think you misspelled "Lunarian"  :V
Her meat-shield machinegun spellcard is totally a pain in the sitter for Sanae players...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 16, 2015, 04:03:06 PM
Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 16, 2015, 04:10:41 PM
Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.

Perhaps someone did notice, but "guys there's loads of fairies on the moon!" isn't the kind of research paper that gets much notice.

As for Yukari... she knew it would be handled by Eirin, so why bother getting involved? There was no manipulation to be done, here. More time for sleeping :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 16, 2015, 04:17:30 PM
Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.

This. Yukari was mysteriously absent from ULiL, where a breach in the barrier occurred which would definitely concern her, and she was absent from this game, which would concern her as well. Apparently she appeared in an ending, but still. It just doesn't make sense to me.

In regards to fairy brilliance invasion of the near side of the moon, when was it ever said they were on the "real" moon? IIRC the Lunarians had a Gensokyo-like barrier which hid their version of the moon and only specific people like Maribel can see through it. It has nothing to do with geographical location (near side/far side). This is further supported by stage 6, where we're on a literal sea yet can see the earth.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 16, 2015, 04:19:52 PM
*many words*
Those are excellent points, thanks!

Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.
It probably wasn't that extensive. The ground the protagonist cover on stage 5 is still a bare lunar landscape, after all. Stage 6, iirc, is happening inside the Lunarian's version of the moon again.

And at any rate, maybe the outside world IS freaking out about this. How would we know? No one involved has connections with the outside. Maybe Sumireko will say something next time she appears.

In addition, the lack of actions taken by Yukari throughout ULiL and LoLK sure dealt a number to my image of her as an omniscient manipulator. Reimu and Kasen just barely saved the Gensokyo from the Lunar Capital ball being activated, now we had an actual invasion and unlike Eirin, she doesn't give a damn.
If she didn't act herself, she probably just didn't deem it necessary. From Marisa's ending, it seems she knows who Sagume is, and if so maybe she knew how reluctant she would be to carry out her plan to colonize Gensokyo (which's repeatedly stated to be a back-up plan that they really don't want to have to use).

In regards to fairy brilliance invasion of the near side of the moon, when was it ever said they were on the "real" moon? IIRC the Lunarians had a Gensokyo-like barrier which hid their version of the moon and only specific people like Maribel can see through it. It has nothing to do with geographical location (near side/far side). This is further supported by stage 6, where we're on a literal sea yet can see the earth.
Stage 5 is a bare lunar landscape; as we know from SSiB, the Lunarian's moon doesn't have such features.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 16, 2015, 04:37:27 PM
Is there really confusion among people that they think Shinki is the goddess of
hell
?  Some people are getting Makai confused with that place...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 16, 2015, 04:49:01 PM
Well, there's one more thing that bugs me. How did the Outside World failed to notice the freaking moon being terraformed? It certainly isn't happening on the far side, as we see the Earth during the fifth stage. If the background image in the Extra Stage is any indication, that should bring some mass panic.
I've always assumed that the "terraforming" was purely spiritual in nature, not physical. After all, the danger to the Lunar Capital was described as being the presence of impurity ("life and death" in general, through Clownpiece).

Speaking of Clownpiece, my first impression is that she might indeed be stronger than Cirno if only because of what she embodies becoming "purified" and thus enhanced. Then again, she's brand new and ZUN will most likely expand on her character in the future, either through more appearances in the games or the inevitable PMiSS/SoPM treatment. I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Cirno didn't beat Marisa though. She depleted all of Marisa's health on all 18 of her attacks before losing all her lives/motivation herself, so technically she won the Spell Card battle. Yes, Cirno took a beating, but Marisa didn't "beat" (as in "defeat") her in that instance. It's possible Hatate misinterpreted Cirno looking "beat up" as a sign that she lost. Plus this is Hatate we're talking about - "consider the source" and all that jazz.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 16, 2015, 05:17:20 PM
On the subject of "why hasn't anyone on Earth seen the terraforming", I think it's mostly because it's not like they can see lifeforce suddenly shooting through the roof. I mean, our technology modern day can't detect the essence of life. Signs of it, maybe, but not the pure essence that the fairies from hell were exuding. I do think that it's odd they didn't see any of the danmaku happening, though. Stage 5 looks to be on the "real" surface of the Moon that we see ourselves in the Outside World. We can't see Stage 6 because that's in the "dream/fantasy" surface of the Moon, but as I said before, to quote a CinemaSins joke: "Nobody who watches the sky for a living sees this shit." Remember, Stage 5 and 6 are on the near side of the moon, the side we can always see, so if someone didn't see some sort of weird lightshows happening up there, I'd be amazed. The same can be applied to ULiL, where it seems no one is aware of the danmaku fights that were occurring above whichever city the protagonists were dumped into near the end of their stories.

Still, between both games, the Outside World has had visible danmaku fights in it, and whether or not people have noticed... well I can't say for certain. So far there seems to be no story details on that end, but I'm wondering if it's possible there's now rumors of strange happenings.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 16, 2015, 05:52:33 PM
Well, the Lunar Capital and it's surroundings being behind a perception barrier similiar to the Hakurei barrier seems to be the most rational explanation to the Outside World population being unaware to me.

That, and it would also explain how the human characters can, um, breathe on the moon, if it isn't the surface we, the Outside World people know, but rather some Lunarian space directly connected to the Dream World.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 16, 2015, 06:11:11 PM
Or perhaps Yukari took a trip to the outside world to make sure no one noticed the events, since she apparently mentions in Marisa's ending that she was 'busy'. Although that leads me to think that she was sleeping the whole time  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 16, 2015, 06:20:41 PM
On the subject of "why hasn't anyone on Earth seen the terraforming", I think it's mostly because it's not like they can see lifeforce suddenly shooting through the roof. I mean, our technology modern day can't detect the essence of life. Signs of it, maybe, but not the pure essence that the fairies from hell were exuding. I do think that it's odd they didn't see any of the danmaku happening, though. Stage 5 looks to be on the "real" surface of the Moon that we see ourselves in the Outside World. We can't see Stage 6 because that's in the "dream/fantasy" surface of the Moon, but as I said before, to quote a CinemaSins joke: "Nobody who watches the sky for a living sees this shit." Remember, Stage 5 and 6 are on the near side of the moon, the side we can always see, so if someone didn't see some sort of weird lightshows happening up there, I'd be amazed. The same can be applied to ULiL, where it seems no one is aware of the danmaku fights that were occurring above whichever city the protagonists were dumped into near the end of their stories.

Still, between both games, the Outside World has had visible danmaku fights in it, and whether or not people have noticed... well I can't say for certain. So far there seems to be no story details on that end, but I'm wondering if it's possible there's now rumors of strange happenings.

Hm... I forgot about ULiL, and there's no way I can rationalize that. The fact that it's happened twice makes me feel like it might become a plot point in a future game.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 16, 2015, 06:39:22 PM
Or perhaps Yukari took a trip to the outside world to make sure no one noticed the events, since she apparently mentions in Marisa's ending that she was 'busy'.
I was thinking the same. No way noone noticed Sumireko fighting with the others in the middle of a city, especially since some damage has been certainly done to the surroundings. Reinforcing the border to make literally impossible for outsiders to slip inside even as a mistake sounds something she would do.
Also, maybe she had another (unused) plan, or cooperated with Eirin, or was dealing with the whole urban legend/occult ball thing since they are apparently still around (Marisa has one in that ending). Could also be that the boundary was damaged and she was repairing it.

We could get an answer in WaHH or FS, or (hopefully) another spin-off like ISC was for DDC.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Arcengal on August 16, 2015, 06:59:21 PM
In stage 6, when the blue rain starts to fall and the music swells just in time for Earth to come back into view... legit chills. What a moment that is.

So spells like Junko's final spell (her ACTUAL final spell, that is) usually have some kind of "no, you can't just time it out" phase that comes into play at the end. I can't survive it long enough to find out (btw, Practice mode has continues now...) but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the horrors of the 10 second countdown.

It just progresses through the stages over time, there's no super special phase sadly. 88 seconds for 2nd phase, 50-ish seconds for third, 30 seconds for final.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quils on August 16, 2015, 07:50:32 PM
From what I could understand, the Extra Stage is actually Stage 7 in terms of story...
I guess this means that chronologically all the endings in the game occur after the Extra Stage?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 16, 2015, 08:06:47 PM
From what I could understand, the Extra Stage is actually Stage 7 in terms of story...
I guess this means that chronologically all the endings in the game occur after the Extra Stage?

I read the extra stage dialogue and background story.
To me it looks like the extra stage happens after the ending
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 08:33:11 PM
Re: Yukari: she shows up in an ending to explain that
she doesn't think the events of ULiL or LoLK are important enough for her to care about. Marisa assumes the same stuff we assume, that Yukari would always get involved when the defense of the barrier is at issue, but Yukari just laughs and says "Is that so?" It basically ends on an incredibly ominous note that Yukari's definition of "protecting Gensokyo" might be quite different from what anyone else can imagine (ie: she might not care if Lunarians kill everyone, as long as the concept of Gensoyko itself survives).

That, and it would also explain how the human characters can, um, breathe on the moon, if it isn't the surface we, the Outside World people know, but rather some Lunarian space directly connected to the Dream World.

In Sanae's route, she assumes that the moon having a breathable atmosphere (the real moon, not the fantasy moon), is an effect of the fairies making it a liveable place. It's not proven that she's right, but she's worried that she'd die if Clownpiece leaves.

From what I could understand, the Extra Stage is actually Stage 7 in terms of story...
I guess this means that chronologically all the endings in the game occur after the Extra Stage?

Reisen's Legacy ending explicitly takes place before the Extra stage.

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 16, 2015, 09:29:27 PM
In Sanae's route, she assumes that the moon having a breathable atmosphere (the real moon, not the fantasy moon), is an effect of the fairies making it a liveable place. It's not proven that she's right, but she's worried that she'd die if Clownpiece leaves.
Oh, thank you. That would imply that the process of the moon terraforming *is* radical enough to develop an atmosphere and enough nature to provide oxygen. A change like that wouldn't slip unnoticed by the Outside World unless the current look of the moon is somehow hidden from them. But considering Sumireko's danmaku fights in the Outside World, I *do* suspect that we'll get a plot about the Outside World catching wind of Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 16, 2015, 09:33:31 PM
Oh, thank you. That would imply that the process of the moon terraforming *is* radical enough to develop an atmosphere and enough nature to provide oxygen. A change like that wouldn't slip unnoticed by the Outside World unless the current look of the moon is somehow hidden from them. But considering Sumireko's danmaku fights in the Outside World, I *do* suspect that we'll get a plot about the Outside World catching wind of Gensokyo.

Can't wait to see what kind of lolis people from Earth will send to Gensokyo  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 16, 2015, 09:43:05 PM
So, reading Reimu's scenario,
in legacy mode with misses Junko says that her powers allow her to "kill unconditionally". Wouldn't this mean that she effectively can purify stuff in the same way lunarians intend it (complete destruction of life), other than doing that "refining" she did to the fairies and herself? Also, Reimu remembers Eirin saying that she couldn't defeat the enemies without the drug, but apparently she wins at the end, and avoids this purification thing (unless the ending itself revels something else).

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 09:46:41 PM
So, reading Reimu's scenario,
in legacy mode with misses Junko says that her powers allow her to "kill unconditionally". Wouldn't this mean that she effectively can purify stuff in the same way lunarians intend it (complete destruction of life), other than doing that "refining" she did to the fairies and herself? Also, Reimu remembers Eirin saying that she couldn't defeat the enemies without the drug, but apparently she wins at the end, and avoids this purification thing (unless the ending itself revels something else).

The Legacy endings
all imply that the protagonist failed. They're kind of bad endings, but longer and more in depth. In Reimu's, she gives up on driving off the invading moon rabbits, but then the moon rabbits end up integrated into Gensokyo society anyway, with the final invasion indefinitely delayed.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 16, 2015, 10:10:50 PM
The Legacy endings
all imply that the protagonist failed. They're kind of bad endings, but longer and more in depth. In Reimu's, she gives up on driving off the invading moon rabbits, but then the moon rabbits end up integrated into Gensokyo society anyway, with the final invasion indefinitely delayed.

Why do I feel like those endings are not a kind of bad ending. It just implies that they did not use the drug.
If you mean "failed" because the moon rabbits did not retreat, then probably all the endings should be considered as failed because Hecatia is still trapping Lunarians until protagonists beat her in extra stage
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 10:18:12 PM
Why do I feel like those endings are not a kind of bad ending. It just implies that they did not use the drug.
If you mean "failed" because the moon rabbits did not retreat, then probably all the endings should be considered as failed because Hecatia is still trapping Lunarians until protagonists beat her in extra stage

No, I mean it literally says they failed. "The plan failed! You didn't beat Junko!" Apparently you really did need the drug to win.

Reimu's ending has her tell Sanae that she failed. Marisa's ending is about Reisen lecturing her for failing (she took the elixir from Eirin, but put it in her collection instead of drinking it). Sanae's ending is her getting re-trained by Kanako because she was no match for the Lunarians. Reisen's ending is her panicking over going back to Eientei without succeeding, and having disobeyed Eirin's order to drink the elixir. Kaguya convinces her that the new intel on the Hell Fairies and Hecatia made the trip worth it despite her failure.

By contrast, the pointdevice endings are all about the characters bragging that they saved the moon.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 16, 2015, 10:26:17 PM
No, I mean it literally says they failed. "The plan failed! You didn't beat Junko!" Apparently you really did need the drug to win.

Reimu's ending has her tell Sanae that she failed. Marisa's ending is about Reisen lecturing her for failing (she took the elixir from Eirin, but put it in her collection instead of drinking it). Sanae's ending is her getting re-trained by Kanako because she was no match for the Lunarians. Reisen's ending is her panicking over going back to Eientei without succeeding, and having disobeyed Eirin's order to drink the elixir. Kaguya convinces her that the new intel on the Hell Fairies and Hecatia made the trip worth it despite her failure.

By contrast, the pointdevice endings are all about the characters bragging that they saved the moon.

Okay, for some reason I missed the "didn't beat Junko" part.
WTF ZUN, you said all endings are good endings
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 16, 2015, 11:04:22 PM
Re: Yukari: she shows up in an ending to explain that
she doesn't think the events of ULiL or LoLK are important enough for her to care about. Marisa assumes the same stuff we assume, that Yukari would always get involved when the defense of the barrier is at issue, but Yukari just laughs and says "Is that so?" It basically ends on an incredibly ominous note that Yukari's definition of "protecting Gensokyo" might be quite different from what anyone else can imagine (ie: she might not care if Lunarians kill everyone, as long as the concept of Gensoyko itself survives).

She does care, since the concept of Gensoyko itself includes a number of humans living inside. I think Yukari simply knew that the incident will resolve without her just allright (and she was right - there are no bad endings).

Can't wait to see what kind of lolis people from Earth will send to Gensokyo  :V

Strawberry Crisis all over again XD
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 16, 2015, 11:13:36 PM
She does care, since the concept of Gensoyko itself includes a number of humans living inside. I think Yukari simply knew that the incident will resolve without her just allright (and she was right - there are no bad endings).

The line that Marisa found particularly ominous was
"Gensokyo can change."
But I agree that it's not helpful to read too much into it, the basic point is just that Yukari doesn't appear to care about any of the recent events, and is generally a creepy and mysterious person who Marisa doesn't trust.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lishy1 on August 16, 2015, 11:27:52 PM
Wow, I just saw Clownpiece's design., Can't get more "Murica!" than that. I wonder if the design is intentional?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 16, 2015, 11:33:26 PM
Wow, I just saw Clownpiece's design., Can't get more "Murica!" than that. I wonder if the design is intentional?

Probably anti-American propaganda in response to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

(No, not the one from the Harry Potter series.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 16, 2015, 11:46:03 PM
" I'm the Hakurei shrine maiden who silences crying children! " Did she just steal Sumireko's  quote?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 16, 2015, 11:52:45 PM
Isn't the flag that was planted on the "moon" currently in Eientei? The design could be related to that.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 17, 2015, 01:27:41 AM
" I'm the Hakurei shrine maiden who silences crying children! " Did she just steal Sumireko's  quote?

It's a common idiom that the series has joked around with many times before.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Yotek1 on August 17, 2015, 01:41:48 AM
I think I broke stage 5. Here's the replay file. Yes, I know I'm terrible... it was not a good run.

https://mega.nz/#!lBExmTpQ!gmB597mCIqp2TdYOJRFpTPFqts_zYNlnR9641E5HrpA
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sagus on August 17, 2015, 01:42:13 AM
Clownpiece's probably dressed like that to annoy the Lunarians, since the whole Apollo program business (and the flag they planted on the Moon) is a sore spot for them.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 17, 2015, 01:58:26 AM
Wow, having started with Sanae and now moved onto Marisa, she really suffers during the stages but bosses just crumble to dust. I'm actually having to hold myself back to get enough graze on spells before they break.

Lengthy streaming sections in Stages though are almost like playing on a difficulty setting higher than Sanae. Can't kill 'em quickly enough!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 17, 2015, 02:24:11 AM
No, I mean it literally says they failed. "The plan failed! You didn't beat Junko!" Apparently you really did need the drug to win.

Reimu's ending has her tell Sanae that she failed. Marisa's ending is about Reisen lecturing her for failing (she took the elixir from Eirin, but put it in her collection instead of drinking it). Sanae's ending is her getting re-trained by Kanako because she was no match for the Lunarians. Reisen's ending is her panicking over going back to Eientei without succeeding, and having disobeyed Eirin's order to drink the elixir. Kaguya convinces her that the new intel on the Hell Fairies and Hecatia made the trip worth it despite her failure.

By contrast, the pointdevice endings are all about the characters bragging that they saved the moon.

Huh, that's interesting. Considering Junko isn't any different gameplay-wise between the two modes, does this mean the heroine failing to stop her plan is a result of being impure, rather than being unable to defeat her? I'm still a little unclear on the extent of what Junko's ability can do, but I wonder if Junko's ability somehow requires either the elixir or a "pure" run of the game to counteract it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on August 17, 2015, 02:44:39 AM
Quote
I don't think the Lunarians themselves would have a serious problem when faced with impurity, rather it's something that must not affect the Lunar capital.

I am pretty sure there is a difference between Remilia bringing fairy maids and the fairies from hell that come to the moon.

The fairies that Remilia brought with her are just on vacation, they are not planning to reside there.

The fairies Clown Piece brought with her come there to live and thus create life, because that's what fairies do. They live in a tree, it grows. They live in the ocean, life exists.
Lunarians have no way of getting rid of these fairies, because killing them is impossible. So, the Lunarians run away.

Quote
Oh, thank you. That would imply that the process of the moon terraforming *is* radical enough to develop an atmosphere and enough nature to provide oxygen. A change like that wouldn't slip unnoticed by the Outside World unless the current look of the moon is somehow hidden from them.

There is no way the outside world can detect such a change. There is no technology we have currently that can do that from that distance.
To detect such a change, there needs to be something already there observing oxygen levels.
A change like that, I would say, will definitely slip unnoticed by the outside world, simply for the fact that we don't have such ridiculously good detection devices.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lishy1 on August 17, 2015, 02:45:55 AM
Isn't the flag that was planted on the "moon" currently in Eientei? The design could be related to that.
This is actually a really solid theory.... I like it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 17, 2015, 07:14:59 AM
The Legacy endings
all imply that the protagonist failed. They're kind of bad endings, but longer and more in depth. In Reimu's, she gives up on driving off the invading moon rabbits, but then the moon rabbits end up integrated into Gensokyo society anyway, with the final invasion indefinitely delayed.

That looks like another similarity to IN.
There, Final A endings were sort-of failures as well, and implied heroines tried again to get Final B endings. Maybe the situation here could be interpreted similarly, except there's no alternative stage 6, just some different dialogue.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 17, 2015, 09:22:29 AM
There is no way the outside world can detect such a change. There is no technology we have currently that can do that from that distance.
To detect such a change, there needs to be something already there observing oxygen levels.
A change like that, I would say, will definitely slip unnoticed by the outside world, simply for the fact that we don't have such ridiculously good detection devices.

We actually do have such devices since a breathable atmosphere creates various effects that can be seen with just a telescope, not to mention spectrometers.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 17, 2015, 10:25:26 AM
Can someone please make a general summary of the endings? I'm dying to know what happened)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 17, 2015, 12:46:10 PM
Can someone please make a general summary of the endings? I'm dying to know what happened)

Looking at the game files, I've confirmed that there are only 8 endings.

Pointdevice:

Reimu:
Reimu confronts Eirin about being used as a pawn, asking why she didn't tell her about Junko, etc. Eirin simply responds that if she'd told the truth  then Reimu probably wouldn't have gone. Reimu leaves, unsatisfied, but gets stopped on the way out by Tewi. Tewi asks about Junko, because she wants to know the Lunarians' weaknesses, for future reference. However, she denies wanting to fight them, she just wants to do business. Reimu looks forward to whatever Tewi is planning.

Marisa:
Marisa's back at home, pissed about being used by Eirin but satisfied that at least she got an explanation of where the Occult Balls came from (she's holding the Lunar Capital orb). Yukari pops in out of nowhere, asks to see the orb, but denies wanting to confiscate it or that it would dangerous for Gensokyo. She tells Marisa that Gensokyo is capable of change, and Marisa freaks out over the implications of that. Also the orb disappeared while they were talking.

Sanae:
Sanae goes home to the Moriya shrine and writes a comically exaggerated report of her mission for Kanako. Kanako notices the name Sagume in the report, realizes that it's probably the famous god Sagume, and thinks about the implications of the Heavenly gods moving to Earth. She compares it to when Amaterasu's grandson came down to Earth in ancient times, and notes that Sanae accidentally got revenge for the native gods by stopping the invasion.

Reisen:
Reisen reports to Eirin, asks about Junko, and gets treated to a long lecture about Junko and Chang'e and their family trees, complete with a diagram. She doesn't quite get it, but feels closer to Eirin now that she knows one of the secrets of the Lunar Capital.

Legacy

Reimu:
Sanae comes by the shrine to ask why the moon rabbits are still here, and Reimu says she didn't drink the elixir and failed (she didn't drink it because she was suspicious of the ingredients). Later, Ringo comes by and tells her that the rumors of the youkai shrine have spread even to the moon, and she's always wanted to see it. Apparently the lunar vehicle they brought with them makes it so youkai can't see the rabbits (it only affects those with especially strong impurity, like youkai). In other words, the moon really didn't want to have to fight the youkai.

Marisa:
Reisen comes to Marisa's house to scold her for failing the mission. Marisa didn't drink the elixir because she thought it was too valuable to waste. Reisen decides that she just can't trust humans to get anything done, so she'll have to drink the elixir and go to the moon herself. During the conversation, Marisa realizes that even Reisen doesn't seem to know exactly what the elixir is, so she figures not drinking it was the right choice.

Sanae:
Sanae is being trained by Kanako in a harsh drill sergeant manner, because she came back from the moon all beaten up. Apparently in this timeline Sanae's gods told her not to take the elixir so they could keep and analyze it. Suwako figures out that in addition to letting the user experience the future, it also "purifies their past," removing all impurity. This would apparently instantly defeat a native god, but would just turn Sanae into a cleansed human. Blah blah blah kegare is life and death, etc. Then the narration gets all philosophical about how having infinite lives makes death feel trivial.

Reisen:
Reisen is outside Eientei, panicking about what to do after having disobeyed Eirin. Apparently stress causes her ears to wilt (is that why they're crumpled?). Kaguya shows up, and advises her to remember what Clownpiece said about being from Hell, and also that she was working for her master's friend. This implies the presence of a third party other than Junko, something Eirin did not predict. Kaguya convinces Reisen that bringing back this valuable intel would be enough for Eirin the praise her. This ending seems to lead into the Extra stage.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 17, 2015, 12:57:02 PM
Huh, that's interesting. Considering Junko isn't any different gameplay-wise between the two modes, does this mean the heroine failing to stop her plan is a result of being impure, rather than being unable to defeat her? I'm still a little unclear on the extent of what Junko's ability can do, but I wonder if Junko's ability somehow requires either the elixir or a "pure" run of the game to counteract it.
Seeing how we get the "you're too impure to defeat me" thing only with misses even in legacy mode, how Junko talks about errors/wounds, and Reimu's profile saying that this time there is no room for errors, maybe this impurity comes from being wounded and thus being slightly closer to death than if they didn't get hit once.
Also, since Junko is also in extra (that is basically only in legacy mode), maybe she says something important about this matter.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 17, 2015, 01:42:54 PM
Oh wow, my prediction about the final boss reacting to "impurities" based on dying/game performance that I made months ago on the other thread turned out to be correct... what are the odds!

Too bad Junko didn't go all 'true final boss' on us if we didn't die once or did a 1CC in legacy or whatever. Oh well, next phantasm!


Quote
Remember what I said about the smirk / cocky faces all the girls show in this game? What's with that!!!

Cocky face is a sexy face. I love it!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: FlareDragon on August 17, 2015, 02:24:21 PM
Something I just noticed: Segume does not personally shoot at you once until her final attack. Instead, she sends out her orbs to attack for her. Kinda matches the whole "not-talking" thing, since she winds up talking a whole bunch after the fight
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 17, 2015, 03:40:09 PM
I wonder if lunarians are gonna stop acting like superior alpha bitches all the time,
now that they got their asses saved by earthlings
. Maybe we could get some more interactions between them and Gensokyo. Or even better, lunarians as playable characters in the spin-offs :V
This would also help if ZUN plans to release another PMiSS/SoPM-like book, since Akyuu wouldn't be able to meet anyone from LoLK, except for Doremy.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 17, 2015, 06:14:44 PM
I wonder if lunarians are gonna stop acting like superior alpha bitches all the time,
now that they got their asses saved by earthlings
.

You'd think that, but looking at real-life examples, I somehow doubt it.

Also, I love how Sanae likens the giant metallic spider crawling over Gensokyo to the Curiosity rover - which was launched in 2011. Since this is after she entered Gensokyo, I guess she's following what's happening in the outside world somehow. Which is pretty neat!

e: unspoiler'd for ease of reading for you ancient mobile phone owners
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Maple on August 17, 2015, 06:17:35 PM
Current translations: (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom/Music#Stage_4_theme)
Quote from: Wiki
Frozen Capital of Eternity
The fourth stage theme.

It's the Lunar Capital. For some reason, it has been completely abandoned.
This song has a relaxing feel to it, but conjures an image of madness when played in reverse.

It's music more befitting the later parts of a RPG than a shooting game. Oh well, it's too late now.
Did anyone try to play the song in reverse and confirm this? Instead making a song purposely sound similar in reverse (Hartmann's Youkai Girl and Reverse Ideology) we now have purposely opposite themes when played back and forth.

EDIT: disregard this post, the translations have been tweaked. Now it is "It's a song with a calm atmosphere, but on the contrary, it evokes an image of madness."
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 17, 2015, 06:22:55 PM
Also, I love how Sanae
likens the giant metallic spider crawling over Gensokyo to the Curiosity rover - which was launched in 2011. Since this is after she entered Gensokyo, I guess she's following what's happening in the outside world somehow. Which is pretty neat!

Maybe she frequents Kourindou to look for magazines from outside.

...Wait, why are you using spoiler tag for that? This was known ever since demo's prologue.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: NekoNekoRex on August 17, 2015, 06:50:19 PM
Funny thing happened at the touhou panel at Matsuricon. The hosts of the panel were raving about the new touhou release, but weren't as up-to-date as I was and didn't know the story or about the translated omake.txt, so they were surprised when I mentioned it was when we were chatting before the panel began.

They totes did mention shrinemaiden.org as the best english source of touhou news though.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 17, 2015, 07:22:35 PM
Maybe she frequents Kourindou to look for magazines from outside.

...Wait, why are you using spoiler tag for that? This was known ever since demo's prologue.

Ah, so it was. Better safe than sorry!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 17, 2015, 08:15:37 PM
Current translations: (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom/Music#Stage_4_theme)Did anyone try to play the song in reverse and confirm this? Instead making a song purposely sound similar in reverse (Hartmann's Youkai Girl and Reverse Ideology) we now have purposely opposite themes when played back and forth.

I'm listening to the theme reversed as I type this, and it sounds calm, but still relatively creepy, almost like... a late game dungeon theme or something in another dimension altogether.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 17, 2015, 08:48:23 PM
Looking at the game files, I've confirmed that there are only 8 endings.

...

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 17, 2015, 11:03:26 PM
Silly question: Is Junko a former Lunarian?

Points in favour of this are (Reisen ending)
Eirin's knowledge of Chang'e's and Junko's family trees,
and Junko's knowledge of Lunarian views on impurity (life force). However, only few on the Moon know of her, and her official profile makes it seem like she's not.

The Lunar Capital wiki page lists her as such, and I remember reading the same from another source. But I've not encountered definite word on her being from the Moon.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on August 18, 2015, 02:24:00 AM
Quote
We actually do have such devices since a breathable atmosphere creates various effects that can be seen with just a telescope, not to mention spectrometers.

No, we don't. You assume that what the fairies did (Sanae being to breath) would give all the visible effects of breathable atmosphere akin to earth. How can you conclusive say this? There is only one semi-fact (from Sanae's statement) and you are extending your conclusion to include what isn't mentioned.

Quote
Silly question: Is Junko a former Lunarian?

I think she still is a Lunarian.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: SirSlarty on August 18, 2015, 05:17:41 AM
From the demo, Seiran is my favorite.
From the final, Junko is my favorite.
They're both simple in plan and execution: kill the player with the plainest, most straightforward danmaku that they know.

Going on the record to say that I really have a large disdain for Clownpiece. Still hate Yukari the most.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Aya Reiko on August 18, 2015, 10:36:43 AM
So the newest Big Bad is a Divine Spirit that's grudge incarnate. Or a god that could be described as "Maiden of Hatred". So basically, Mephisto (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Mephisto)-tan.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 18, 2015, 10:39:50 AM
So the newest Big Bad is a Divine Spirit that's grudge incarnate. Or a god that could be described as "Maiden of Hatred". So basically, Mephisto (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Mephisto)-tan.

http://imgur.com/nzmsa9c
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 18, 2015, 11:00:29 AM
I swear, the number of cocky and smug-face / smirking Touhous in this game is too much for me to handle.

It just makes you want to punch them all in the face for some unknown reason.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 18, 2015, 12:29:29 PM
No, we don't. You assume that what the fairies did (Sanae being to breath) would give all the visible effects of breathable atmosphere akin to earth. How can you conclusive say this? There is only one semi-fact (from Sanae's statement) and you are extending your conclusion to include what isn't mentioned.

Basic physics. If fairies create actual air that can be breathed, then it can be seen. Well, may be what they create is more like an idea of the air, an idea of "you are able to breathe here", and giving this idea enough magic for it to come true. Very Touhou-ish.

Sanae:
Sanae is being trained by Kanako in a harsh drill sergeant manner, because she came back from the moon all beaten up. Apparently in this timeline Sanae's gods told her not to take the elixir so they could keep and analyze it. Suwako figures out that in addition to letting the user experience the future, it also "purifies their past," removing all impurity. This would apparently instantly defeat a native god, but would just turn Sanae into a cleansed human. Blah blah blah kegare is life and death, etc. Then the narration gets all philosophical about how having infinite lives makes death feel trivial.

Wait, then in the route where Sanae took the elixir she stopped being a god?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 18, 2015, 12:39:14 PM
Wait, then in the route where Sanae took the elixir she stopped being a god?
Didn't ZUN say that pointdevice was supposed to be the main story for this game too? (Not a spoiler, he said this before the full release)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 18, 2015, 01:15:11 PM
Silly question: Is Junko a former Lunarian?
It's semi-implied at this point that many occurrences of Shinto mythology involving the Amatsukami have to do with the moon. As Chang'e never ascended to the moon in Touhou lore, it's reasonable to say Junko also lived on the moon... But you also have to consider the connection to the story of Houyi, which is probably started the whole thing. In Reisen's ending
it shows Chang'e with the moon, Houyi with the sun, and Junko and the child with the earth. One of the famous stories of Houyi is that ten "suns" (yatagarasu) were born and shot down by Houyi in order to save the earth, so one of these might have been her child?
I haven't done enough research to nail down what ZUN's scrambled together here.

[endings]
Nice to see that ZUN hasn't dropped his ending storytelling technique. What's more is that he seems to have gone a level further and spread salient information across both Pointdevice and Legacy endings, so it isn't just "these are bad endings and these are good endings", they all play a part. Excellent.

Didn't ZUN say that pointdevice was supposed to be the main story for this game too? (Not a spoiler, he said this before the full release)
No, he basically said he designed the game for Pointdevice.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 18, 2015, 03:29:05 PM
Speaking of endings and characters ? do you think any character from this game has a possibility to reappear in a future Touhou game?
I really can't see Sagume or Junko in Gensokyo. I can see Clownpiece, but so some extent.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 18, 2015, 03:35:06 PM
I just thought of something... was it ever explained what happens to the giant mechanical spider after Reimu and co. go to town, shoot out the place and makes the big bads run off with their tail between their legs?

If I am informed correctly, the mechanical spider was the Lunarians device so they recalled it back to the dreamland and back to the moon once they could go back to the moon when Junko was defeated right? Anything further about the spider in Omake.txt?

Quote
I swear, the number of cocky and smug-face / smirking Touhous in this game is too much for me to handle. It just makes you want to punch them all in the face for some unknown reason.

Well, if you were the god of hell, a powerful devine spirit, a lunarian or a god equipped with the danmaku that was thrown at us in this game, you would probably be considered just a lowly, impure human as well that isn't really a bother.

Think of a situation where a six foot man is looking down at a small ant that wants to bite him. He would probably be thinking "heh heh heh... your so about to get squashed >: 3"

I, personally, love the sense of confidence these girls project. That's why I love Marisa so much when she hauls ass.

Quote
Speaking of endings and characters ? do you think any character from this game has a possibility to reappear in a future Touhou game? I really can't see Sagume or Junko in Gensokyo. I can see Clownpiece, but so some extent. Thoughts?

I don't know, why don't you try asking Medicine Melancholy, Yamame Kurodani, Koakuma and Soga No Tojiko. See how their going with reappearances after their 15 minutes of fame.  :derp:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 18, 2015, 03:46:37 PM
Speaking of endings and characters ? do you think any character from this game has a possibility to reappear in a future Touhou game?
I really can't see Sagume or Junko in Gensokyo. I can see Clownpiece, but so some extent.

Thoughts?

Ringo is almost certainly still in Gensokyo. I'd assume Hecatia went back to Hell, so Clownpiece might have gone with her or might have gone and done her own thing. Unless it's in one of the endings we might not know for a while.

About Junko, I'd guess she will be in Gensokyo (though I haven't read the endings or extra dialogue, so something there might change my mind). She definitely won't be welcome on the moon and being a divine spirit she'll have a hard time existing in the outside world. The only places she could go AFAIK are Gensokyo or Hell, and it would be a waste of a character if she went to Hell and never showed up again.

Of course, now that we've discovered the Kaian route I feel like any of the characters could easily show up in future games spinoffs or manga.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 18, 2015, 03:55:13 PM
I don't think Junko's position has changed at all. It's not like she's a new development to the Lunar Capital: she's presumably been plotting against the moon for thousands of years. She mentions meeting the crew of Apollo 11 (but doesn't give any details), so she's definitely been hanging out on the moon by herself for at least decades, and there's no reason she can't continue to do so. I doubt she'll end up in Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 18, 2015, 04:33:52 PM
The Extra Story is where you'd go to get what finally happens to Junko, I imagine.  Well, maybe.  Unlike other Touhou games, the extra story in this one is a continuation of the main plot rather than a new mini-plot launched off from the main plot (I think?)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 18, 2015, 04:46:19 PM
So, I presume this (http://i.imgur.com/WwfaQA2.jpg) turned out to be just a red herring. Bummer.

So, now that we know the deal with the endings, did anyone confirm the Extra Stage unlock requirements already? If, for all intents and purposes
1cc'ing or not changes nothing about the ending we get and playing on Pointdevice / no-deathing Legacy or not is what decides which one you'll get, then it would be pretty important to know storyline-wise whether getting the 'worse' ending can still unlock the Extra Stage and allow you to proceed further. Would Junko just move on to the Extra Stage part of the story if she pwn'd your impure self effortlessly (as it's implied outside the gameplay by her dialogue)?

What about no-death Legacy runs that have their first death or Junko? - Junko in-story seems 100% certain she cannot win anymore if you reach her without dying, but scoring a first misss while fighting her should logically overturn the outcome to her favor.
(Unless it's another Kaguya situation from IN, where you'd get the good ending even if she forces your imperishable night spell to break with her bonus spell cards.)

I also wouldn't mind knowing if an Easy clear or a clear with continues unlocks the Extra Stage,
considering there's no such things as "1cc" in-story at all this time, only death or no-death runs.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 18, 2015, 05:34:04 PM
I also wouldn't mind knowing if an Easy clear or a clear with continues unlocks the Extra Stage,
considering there's no such things as "1cc" in-story at all this time, only death or no-death runs.

Easy unlocks extra. Using continues also has the same ending as a 1CC. I wouldn't know if Legacy mode unlocks Extra though, because I can't un-unlock it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: yukiluck on August 18, 2015, 09:47:34 PM
Current translations: (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom/Music#Stage_4_theme)Did anyone try to play the song in reverse and confirm this? ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dObTqkz-x2I
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Fulisha of Light on August 18, 2015, 10:25:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dObTqkz-x2I
Damn, that's really creepy D:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quils on August 18, 2015, 11:44:32 PM
I get the feeling that with the Dream World passage the Lunar Capital (and the Moon in general) will be much more accessible. Maybe it'll get the same treatment as the Underworld: everyone saying that you shouldn't travel to that world because it's dangerous blah blah... but that still wouldn't stop some people from the Moon occasionally visiting Gensokyo or Marisa going to the Lunar Capital to hunt for treasure, for example.

Well, I hope that's the case because it would be sad to never see these new characters again.
(And I hope this means that the Watatsuki sisters could appear (not counting cameos) in some manga chapters (WaHH/FS/whatever) in the future, specially those mentioning what happened after this incident.)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 19, 2015, 12:32:04 AM
Come to think of it,  Junko's son is the yatagarasu Okuu ate?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: SomeGuy712x on August 19, 2015, 12:51:26 AM
I wouldn't know if Legacy mode unlocks Extra though, because I can't un-unlock it.
Legacy does indeed unlock Extra, because my first time playing the full version, I 1cc-ed Legacy on Easy with Reimu, and that unlocked Extra for her.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 19, 2015, 12:52:32 AM
I get the feeling that with the Dream World passage the Lunar Capital (and the Moon in general) will be much more accessible.
I doubt it. Apparently, it still takes the full Moon to travel between the two, and not everyone can use the dream world whenever they want like in LoLK (i'm not sure Reimu and the others were able becuse of the drug). Also, Lunarians would never allow people going on the Moon as they please. The "filthy earthlings would bring us impurity and thus death" thing is still true.
As for Marisa going there to cause trouble...even if by some low chance she was allowed to go there, she better keep her hands off and behave, since lunarians don't have Gensokyo's rules to ensure her safety.
Lunarians showing up in Gensokyo isn't impossible though, especially if it has something to do with Eientei. Maybe Sagume shows up to take her urban-legend-causing occult balls back (would make for a great 15.5 i think).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 19, 2015, 01:07:28 AM
I get the feeling that with the Dream World passage the Lunar Capital (and the Moon in general) will be much more accessible.
I'm not too sure about that. Doremy let you through to the true Lunar Capital, but this seems like a one-off due to the circumstances. She's normally supposed to keep these sorts of things in check. Maybe it won't matter and it'll still be used as transport here and there, but it almost seems too convenient for anyone to go to and fro. It kind of underwhelms all the methods previously used to get to the moon (lunar veil, god rocket, monthly gap, mountain-sea hax) if it's just some regularly available thing.

Come to think of it,  Junko's son is the yatagarasu Okuu ate?
No. "Eating" is also a pretty lax metaphor at this point (it's more like "consume"?), basically Kanako set up Utsuho as a vessel for the divine spirit of the Yatagarasu just like you might make a shrine out of an empty wooden box. That's where the "empty-headed" part comes in. She also didn't take on "the" Yatagarasu, since gods can split to fit into any and all shrines made for them. Now when I was talking about the Yatagarasu above, that's just how the tale of Houyi goes. It doesn't necessarily mean ZUN is adapting the story how it's usually written, since currently it's only very loose connections as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quils on August 19, 2015, 01:20:26 AM
Ok... maybe not "much more accessible" but "a little bit more accessible". I guess it makes much more sense for the lunarians to visit Gensokyo instead of the earthlings visiting the Moon.
But still, Sagume doesn't seem like the kind of person who would visit other places. She must be a lot like Satori so we'll probably not see too much of her in the future. How sad.

(I can still see Marisa getting into trouble with the lunarians just because she's Marisa)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on August 19, 2015, 02:01:19 AM
Quote
Basic physics. If fairies create actual air that can be breathed, then it can be seen. Well, may be what they create is more like an idea of the air, an idea of "you are able to breathe here", and giving this idea enough magic for it to come true. Very Touhou-ish.

Really now, some assumptions there. You mean to imply that you can detect oxygen from say a plastic air tank from a distance?
How do you know how the fairies are creating breathable air? How are you so sure it causes an atmosphere when it can simply be a zone where you can breathe in?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 19, 2015, 02:17:23 AM
(And I hope this means that the Watatsuki sisters could appear (not counting cameos) in some manga chapters (WaHH/FS/whatever) in the future, specially those mentioning what happened after this incident.)

The Watatsuki sisters don't need the dream world passage if they want to visit Gensokyo, anyways.  They visited just fine in Inaba of the Moon and Earth when they just wanted to chill in Gensokyo with their former mentor and pet rabbit for a while.  While it's true that ZUN gave the author the freedom to write the jokes and thus the specific details might be questionable, it was also ZUN who made a lot of the "suggestions" of who should actually appear next, so it's possible the Watatsuki sisters appearing (and thus their ability and willingness to travel to Gensokyo on a whim) was his suggestion (and thus, canon enough, IMHO) too.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 19, 2015, 02:37:02 AM
Watatsuki's power lets her freely travel between the Earth and the Moon. They've always been able to visit.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quils on August 19, 2015, 02:50:36 AM
I know about Toyohime's power, I'm just saying that they may now have a reason to appear in the mangas again since the Moon is relevant again. Maybe not visiting Gensokyo, but at least I would love to see what they where doing while the Lunar Capital was under attack.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 19, 2015, 03:47:42 AM
The Watatsuki sisters don't need the dream world passage if they want to visit Gensokyo, anyways.  They visited just fine in Inaba of the Moon and Earth when they just wanted to chill in Gensokyo with their former mentor and pet rabbit for a while.  While it's true that ZUN gave the author the freedom to write the jokes and thus the specific details might be questionable, it was also ZUN who made a lot of the "suggestions" of who should actually appear next, so it's possible the Watatsuki sisters appearing (and thus their ability and willingness to travel to Gensokyo on a whim) was his suggestion (and thus, canon enough, IMHO) too.
You don't even need to note Inaba; Toyohime used her ability to carry her and Rei'sen to the Bamboo Forest in SSiB/CiLR.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 19, 2015, 08:57:22 AM
I've seen people mistaking Shinki for the goddess of hell.  I assume that this misconception stems from this passage on the wiki?
"Due to her angelic and demonic elements, Shinki is sometimes considered to be a fallen angel, in particular an analogue to Lucifer or Satan (who was described as bright and beautiful, matching Shinki's name). Pand?monium, the capital of Makai, was the capital of Hell in Paradise Lost."

Saw someone said Shinki is no longer the goddess there because of Hecatia...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 19, 2015, 09:51:18 AM
I think the whole "Frozen Capital of Eternity in reverse" thing is a pretty neat little tidbit from ZUN. I wonder if he meant to make it sound like that when played backwards or if it was just coincidental and ZUN thought it would be neat to mention playing it backwards... ZUN plays his music backwards? Haha  :V

It sounds pretty nice even when played backwards. It kinda reminds me of "death mode" when you get hit in Ten Desires and have 10 seconds of invincibility before *pichuun*.

This is some serious Stairway To Heaven stuff right here... without the Devil worship of course.  >:D
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quwanti on August 19, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
I think the whole "Frozen Capital of Eternity in reverse" thing is a pretty neat little tidbit from ZUN. I wonder if he meant to make it sound like that when played backwards or if it was just coincidental and ZUN thought it would be neat to mention playing it backwards... ZUN plays his music backwards? Haha  :V

I'm pretty sure it was just a mistake in the translation part, because it already says something different on the wiki now.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Helepolis on August 19, 2015, 11:19:07 AM
Even older articles / translations from earlier games were not exactly accurate or carefully worded which created lots of false or inaccurate assumptions. Especially for a game that is not even a week old, it is highly discouraged to immediately accept everything as translated. Be careful with that :V


Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 19, 2015, 01:53:05 PM
Yeah I'm still seeing some weird things in the omake at least so I'd be wary of written translations for a little while
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Jaimers on August 19, 2015, 01:58:25 PM
Goddammit ZUN why do you do this. (https://twitter.com/Inatsuka/status/632189492913242113)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: N-Forza on August 19, 2015, 02:11:32 PM
I meant to link that at some point, but yeah, ZUN made the projective hitboxes bigger when he made them round.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 19, 2015, 02:20:24 PM
No wonder the mini-stars feel so fat now. At least there's a bit of consolation in knowing the long elliptical bullets had BS hitboxes both before and after. Were these changes specifically for LoLK or did this happen earlier?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 19, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
Which games are being compared there?

Also, if anyone wonders, continued clears do not unlock Extra Stage. Not surprisingly.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 20, 2015, 02:02:13 AM
It's semi-implied at this point that many occurrences of Shinto mythology involving the Amatsukami have to do with the moon. As Chang'e never ascended to the moon in Touhou lore, it's reasonable to say Junko also lived on the moon... But you also have to consider the connection to the story of Houyi, which is probably started the whole thing. In Reisen's ending
it shows Chang'e with the moon, Houyi with the sun, and Junko and the child with the earth. One of the famous stories of Houyi is that ten "suns" (yatagarasu) were born and shot down by Houyi in order to save the earth, so one of these might have been her child?
I haven't done enough research to nail down what ZUN's scrambled together here.
Thanks. I did think of the connection to Houyi, theorising in a previous post that Chang'e was banished to the Earth and met/married him there, with the events concerning Junko and her child following after (Reisen ending spoilers)
which would explain her Earth position in the diagram
. But as it's a theory and doesn't have much backup (not to mention the number of points both in and not in favour), I naturally had doubts. It's just that the few sources listing her as a former resident of the Moon made me wonder if I missed something.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 20, 2015, 01:19:51 PM
Really now, some assumptions there. You mean to imply that you can detect oxygen from say a plastic air tank from a distance?

*Big McIntosh voice* Eeyup.
Not gonna explain how though, since it will require using terms I don't know English words for.

How do you know how the fairies are creating breathable air? How are you so sure it causes an atmosphere when it can simply be a zone where you can breathe in?

That's what I wrote myself and even described how it could be realized. You really just want to argue, aren't you?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 20, 2015, 05:11:22 PM
It turns out that you actually do get some unique text (https://thpatch.net/w/images/c/c6/th15-ending-staff2.png) (spoiler warning?) at the end of the Staff Roll for a no-miss Legacy clear.
"You have surpassed a god!"
;
"Brag to everyone!"
/
"You're better than a TAS!"
/
"Are you even human??"
for Normal/Hard/Lunatic respectively.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shizzo on August 20, 2015, 08:15:53 PM
It turns out that you actually do get some unique text (https://thpatch.net/w/images/c/c6/th15-ending-staff2.png) (spoiler warning?) at the end of the Staff Roll for a no-miss Legacy clear.
"You have surpassed a god!"
;
"Brag to everyone!"
/
"You're better than a TAS!"
/
"Are you even human??"
for Normal/Hard/Lunatic respectively.

Consider you need more dexterity to dodge Junko's danmaku than to perform heart surgery, no wonder the game claims you're better than a TAS  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on August 21, 2015, 04:03:32 AM
One way to dodge Junko's final spell card is to stay at the bottom of the screen so that you only have to move left and right.  It makes things easier, for me at least.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on August 21, 2015, 09:30:54 AM
Quote
*Big McIntosh voice* Eeyup.
Not gonna explain how though, since it will require using terms I don't know English words for.

That's a pretty interesting assertion you put here. You imply that you can detect oxygen with certainty from a couple of hundred thousand miles away with our current technology.

If you don't know how to say the terms in English, then, could you post some links for proof? I would like to look at this.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Arcorann on August 21, 2015, 12:31:15 PM
It turns out that you actually do get some unique text (https://thpatch.net/w/images/c/c6/th15-ending-staff2.png) (spoiler warning?) at the end of the Staff Roll for a no-miss Legacy clear.
"You have surpassed a god!"
;
"Brag to everyone!"
/
"You're better than a TAS!"
/
"Are you even human??"
for Normal/Hard/Lunatic respectively.
Interesting fact: I already saw the Normal text - Enamel9x (https://twitter.com/EnameL9x/status/633155860483604480) managed to pull off a normal no-miss clear already, and it looks like he's working on Hard.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 21, 2015, 01:26:05 PM
That's a pretty interesting assertion you put here. You imply that you can detect oxygen with certainty from a couple of hundred thousand miles away with our current technology.

This is a weird derail, but yes, yes we can (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2011/aug/HQ_11-252_Herschel.html). In fact, we can see molecules of oxygen all the hell way out in the Orion star cluster. A giant blob of breathable gas on the surface of the Moon would be easily observable.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Achariyth on August 21, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
That's a pretty interesting assertion you put here. You imply that you can detect oxygen with certainty from a couple of hundred thousand miles away with our current technology.

If you don't know how to say the terms in English, then, could you post some links for proof? I would like to look at this.

Very easily, in fact.  There's entire fields of physics and chemistry devoted to it, known as spectroscopy.  Atoms and molecules tend to absorb light at signature wavelengths, like a fingerprint for each individual compound.  Examine the light radiated by a star or reflected from another celestial body.  There are gaps in the spectrum that correspond to what wavelengths compounds in the atmosphere absorb and adsorb.  (Usually, there's a correction needed to account for Doppler motion.)  The most impressive examples have gaps in the visible light spectrum, but these telltale gaps are throughout the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

Finding oxygen in the lunar atmosphere would be simple.  Take a broad spectrum radio transmitter in Earth orbit (away from all that interfering oxygen in the atmosphere) and aim it at the moon.  Point radio antennas in space at the moon to measure the light reflected back.  If there is a gap in the receive signal from 55-65 GHz, there's molecular oxygen in the moon's atmosphere and someone somewhere has some 'splainin' to do.

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on August 21, 2015, 09:11:20 PM
I stand corrected, I read up on link posted. It uses infrared technology to detect oxygen molecules.

So, the question I would have would be, does the outside world use this specific Telescope (or do they have more than one such telescope with such capabilities?) to monitor the moon all the time?
This is in response to the original statement that the outside world would easily detect oxygen levels on the moon, which I don't agree with.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 21, 2015, 10:19:08 PM
I don't know why you're digging your heels in over this needling point, dude, but you're welcome to use The Google to learn all about moon stuff and astronomy. People will still be discussing the actual game when you get back. Cheerio!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lollipop on August 21, 2015, 10:48:40 PM
Could someone link me the English patch? (apparently there's one)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on August 21, 2015, 11:02:12 PM
Could someone link me the English patch? (apparently there's one)

THcrap supports Touhou 15 and the English translation is in progress, but will be automatically updated as progress is made.
Also feel free to help translate at https://thpatch.net/wiki/Touhou_Patch_Center (https://thpatch.net/wiki/Touhou_Patch_Center)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 22, 2015, 02:31:00 AM
Some thoughts on future characters' appearnace.

Seiran and Ringo: Probably will appear in Gensokyo, since they don't really care about purity stuff and Ringo likes Gensokyo.
Doremy: She can only stay in her world and do her own business, unless
there is something wrong with Sumireko and her doppelganger
or there is other stuffs happen in dream world.
Kishin: Same as Doremy, stay in her place and do her business,
but Yukari did want Marisa to keep in contract with whoever made the occult ball
.
Clownpiece: GFW 2
Junko: Don't know. She is not going to stay in the moon, but if she is going to be in Gensokyo, not sure where can she stay.
Hecatia: Probably is going to appear in the future since she is interesting in Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 22, 2015, 03:32:53 AM
Has a consensus been reached on Junko's backstory? I hear a lot of people saying Junko's son was one of the Suns Houyi shot down, but that doesn't sound right to me. Last I heard, Houyi was Junko's husband (and later Chang'e's), and the sun he shot down landed on Junko's child which also doesn't make complete sense. Can someone please give me the real story (if we even know what it is)?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on August 22, 2015, 07:27:57 AM
Has a consensus been reached on Junko's backstory?
None has been reached yet, as far as I know.

I hear a lot of people saying Junko's son was one of the Suns Houyi shot down, but that doesn't sound right to me. Last I heard, Houyi was Junko's husband (and later Chang'e's), and the sun he shot down landed on Junko's child which also doesn't make complete sense.
Adding my 2p:
- I think Junko's story is based on the legendary account of Xuan Qi (Chun Hu) [see gilde's post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18780.msg1206775.html#msg1206775)]. Evidence in favour:
  - Xuan Qi had one child, a son whom Houyi killed, which fits perfectly compared to the notion of him being one of the nine suns shot down.
  - Their names share the same characters. In fact, Chun Hu and Junko both mean "pure fox": "fox" for Junko's tails, and "pure" is self-explanatory.
  (I admit that the evidence isn't much.)
- With the above said, I think Junko's story has nothing to do with the legend of Houyi shooting down the nine suns---this is where Hecatia comes in.
- Scrutinising their profiles, I'd say that Houyi is Chang'e's husband in Touhou lore.

Can someone please give me the real story (if we even know what it is)?
Houyi and Chang'e legends are messy, so ZUN had a number of different ways to go about it...

Nonetheless, another 2p: as to how Houyi fits with all three legends (i.e, sun-shooting, Xuan Qi, Chang'e with the immortality elixir), there is a variation (and there are a LOT) which allows one to account for all of them and (Reisen ending spoilers)
his Sun position in Eirin's diagram
:
1. Houyi and Chang'e were banished from Heaven (Touhou's Moon) after the former shot down the nine suns.
2. He obtained the elixir, then Chang'e consumed it and floated away.
3. He became a tyrant following his separation from his wife, then presumably wronged Xuan Qi.
4. He was later killed and his spirit ascended to the Sun.

(Having typed all this out, methinks I need to revise my Chang'e-drank-Elixir-then-was-banished theory.)

Edit: Whoops, I've just realised that this doesn't address how Junko knows Chang'e is Houyi's spouse. In which case, swap (2) and (3). :D
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 22, 2015, 02:28:29 PM
Quote
Could someone link me the English patch? (apparently there's one)

Currently it is still being worked on as of this post but don't worry, you can track the progress of its development at http://thpatch.tumblr.com/ and checking out the latest tweets there... that's what I have been doing. :P

I'm going to wait a little while after the English patch gets released so that there will be more time for it to be polished by additional people who contribute and refine the patch... because I disable the auto updates when I install it (reminds me of the good old days of stand alone patching).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 22, 2015, 03:22:35 PM
Th15 is impossible at first, but every time I play through another shot in pointdevice, I figure more and more out that makes each stage portion and each boss attack easier to consistently capture without too much difficulty. (Although granted, it's more like bringing it down to realistic levels, in terms of some boss attacks and stuff like laser+star spam bulky fairy trio in stage 5, but that's what bombs are for.) I cleared Reimu Pointdevice normal without a huge amount of retries and only used one bomb for the triple laser ying yang in stage 4 right before midboss, and figured good ways to hit the bonus graze point for a lot of attacks that it doesn't just... happen for naturally.

It's not really a "pick up and play" game and Legacy runs for the vast majority of people are gonna feel dirty from bombing regardless, but I really like figuring out the game through pointdevice to prepare for Legacy runs. I want to wait until the endings are translated before I start playing through legacy, but I feel pretty confident I can get non-stupidly-high-bomb clears of Legacy with all shots pretty well now. It's a good feeling. <3
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: microfolk on August 22, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
Goddammit ZUN why do you do this. (https://twitter.com/Inatsuka/status/632189492913242113)

I'm quoting this message because I can't find when ZUN started using circles for collision detection, it's a recent change for LoLK's engine?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phasm on August 22, 2015, 03:34:36 PM
Yesterday i did a pointdevice with Reisen and her story is fully translated as well as her legacy mode, don't know about Reimu, Marisa and Sanae, but i bet their stories are translated on both modes as well i don?t know about Extra modes.

I gotta say to me this is the hardest Touhou game i have ever encountered. I think Pointdevice is harder than Legacy actually, reason for it being that when you lose a life you get 3 bombs back and in Pointdevice if you run out of bombs in a complex patern then you have to tough it out. For as good as people say Reisen's bombs are, the extra hit points can be wasted on particular spellcards such as Trembling Shivring Star which require the player to have a small hitbox in order to dodge the danmaku.

The only spellcard Sagume has that i have trouble with is Orb Sign "Disorderly Flock's Curse"

Clownpiece is the hardest of all stage 5 bosses, harder than Seija, Shou, Sakuya, Orin, etc.
In addition to having an already tough stage that is the closest Touhou has been to Seihou, her nonspells and spellcards love to trap you.
Great examples of this are her Prison Sign "Hell Eclipse" , Prison Sign "Flash and Stripe" and Hellfire "Graze Inferno"
If it's your 1st time fighting her you will lose a few lives trust me.

Junko granted doesn't have manny complex patterns, but spellcards don't need to have complicated paterns in order to be effective, and her spellcards are really fun as well, my favorite in terms of fun dodging is her " Primordial Divine Spirit World "

Really looking forward to Junko and Clownpiece possibly appearing in another game as well as a possible interaction between Seija and Sagume since they are both Amanojaku
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 22, 2015, 04:49:48 PM
Yesterday i did a pointdevice with Reisen and her story is fully translated as well as her legacy mode, don't know about Reimu, Marisa and Sanae, but i bet their stories are translated on both modes as well i don?t know about Extra modes.
Endings are not translated, Extra is not translated, but apart from that the main thing missing is just Stage 5/6 for Marisa's route.

But yeah, even if pointdevice is arguably harder (I'd say it isn't quite; a large majority of things you can clear without bombs in pointdevice that you'd probably need to bomb in legacy. However you do still have a very good point and at certain degrees it can be easier in Legacy once you're good enough to get overwhelming resources) Pointdevice is still very necessary for learning the game before you can hope to do a good job tackling it in Legacy. Especially Clownpiece's fight... oh god. I think Pointdevice is a really cool kind of Practice Mode.

On Disorderly Flock's Curse, if you get high and mostly stream downwards  standing right below Sagume (and then loop around the side for a second at the last bit of ofuda) you can quickly end it by the end of the second wave as any character. On Sagume speedkill strats are so real that it's -totally- funny.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Jaimers on August 22, 2015, 09:15:47 PM
I'm quoting this message because I can't find when ZUN started using circles for collision detection, it's a recent change for LoLK's engine?

It's for this game.
The previous hitboxes go as far back as SA.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 23, 2015, 01:55:48 AM
It's pretty easy to figure that the reason the hitboxes are less lenient in this game than 14.3 is because he changed collision in general rather than just the sizes.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 23, 2015, 02:23:45 AM
It's pretty easy to figure that the reason the hitboxes are less lenient in this game than 14.3 is because he changed collision in general rather than just the sizes.
How so? I don't remember exactly how collision was supposed to work in previous games, though I do remember seeing somebody explain it somewhere on here a long time ago. Just based on my experience, it doesn't feel like there's anything different other than the hitbox sizes themselves. Does it have to do with the whole squares-vs.-circles thing?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sakurei on August 23, 2015, 09:23:47 AM
It's for this game.
The previous hitboxes go as far back as SA.

Well you're wrong. The change start with DS. TD uses a lot of unusual bullets sprites, so I don't really know about it; not to mention I don't play it, but DDC also has those hitboxes LoLK has. Its understandable that you wouldn't know because nobody plays DS, but DS hitboxes are massive.
I can't speak for the collision thing Drake talks about, that may be another factor, but as far as hitboxes itself go, LoLK isn't anything new.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 23, 2015, 10:06:50 AM
Has a consensus been reached on Junko's backstory? I hear a lot of people saying Junko's son was one of the Suns Houyi shot down, but that doesn't sound right to me.
This is exactly what I am wondering about. There is nowhere in the text that says Junko's son is the sun and I don't know why a lot of people say that.
Quote
Can someone please give me the real story (if we even know what it is)?
All we can tell from the story is that(this is based on in-game text, but please correct me if I say anything wrong): based on character profile and Resian's pointdevice ending, Houyi was Junko's husband and they had a child, but then Houyi kill the child with some reasons and ran away with Chang'e, although Junko later killed Houyi as a revenge.
For the part about sun, that is in Hecatia's profile: part of the reason Hecatia hates Chang'e is that her husband Houyi shot down the sun(Apollo), which weakened the shadow in hell.

TBH, I don't think people should explain the story by the legend or folklore that it is based on. It is common that ZUN make a mistake in understanding a legend and then create a character based on that misconception or make a character who contradicts the legends that she is based on(for example, Seiga) , and it looks like ZUN made the same thing again this time, by mixing up two of the Houyi in history. Also, since ZUN is probably combining Chinese mythology (Chang'e and Houyi) with Greek mythology (Hecatia and Apollo) into one stroy, it is not enough to only use the legend to explain the whole plot. For example, if Houyi, based on the legend, shot down nine of the suns in the sky, does that mean all of them are Apollo or only one of them is?  We can use those legends as references, but they are not used for explaining Touhou story.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 23, 2015, 11:41:49 AM
So, according to extra,
Hecatia and Junko actually plan to visit Gensokyo. I think we'll see them again, after all
.

Also:
Marisa: You get the moon involved, an' just about everything takes forever.
  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gargamesh on August 23, 2015, 12:30:11 PM
So I've been playing Extra and writhing in pain, and I've found possibly the most annoying Bug ever. Basically, after Hecatia's Moon Bonanza, if you bomb just before the spellcard times out,  Junko appears without a health bar, so yeah, you're basically left there to die until you time her out, which is basically impossible unless you have the hands of a surgeon.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sakurei on August 23, 2015, 04:29:18 PM
which is basically impossible unless you have the hands of a surgeon.

[Citation needed]

What a ridiculous exaggeration.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Quils on August 23, 2015, 05:11:50 PM
Just some random thoughts after reading Extra's dialogues:

Since Hecatia and Junko are planning to visit Gensokyo, maybe we can see Clownpiece too since she has no reason to stay on the Moon anymore. I can see Hecatia and Clownpiece going back to Hell aftewards but maybe Junko can stay in Gensokyo (or she can go to Hell with Hecatia).

...Wait, Hecatia has three bodies, so it would be more convenient for her to visit Gensokyo using her Earth body, which I believe is the blue haired one.

Sagume seems too important to not be used again, but she's on a difficult position being not only someone from the Lunar Capital, but also someone who doesn't like to appear in public... I'm really hoping for another manga/novel related to the Moon, it would be interesting.

[Citation needed]

What a ridiculous exaggeration.

It's an hyperbole, it's not meant to be taken literally.

EDIT: Alright, I apologize for that sarcastic reply. No need for more sarcasm.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 23, 2015, 06:13:26 PM
I was afraid we'll never see these girls again, i'm glad honestly.
I missjudged Hecatia's personality based on her portrait, She reminds me of those mean teenage girls you usually find in school. Sanae's scenario... I thought she wouldn't make it alive  :ohdear:

she can go to Hell with Hecatia.

Lol
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 23, 2015, 06:49:28 PM
It's an hyperbole, it's not meant to be taken literally.

Well I'm glad you clarified this, because like Sakurei, I also took you completely literally. So I went to the hospital with my laptop and asked an attending cardiosurgeon to give LoLK a try, and he failed terribly. We were both pretty confused, as I showed him your post and everything. He began to doubt his abilities as a doctor. I should probably call him and tell him you were using hyperbole for comic effect. Next thing you'll tell me people aren't actually punching holes through their laptop screens trying to beat Clownpiece's first spell card.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 23, 2015, 06:54:37 PM
Plz.


Anyway, yeah, marisa's last two stages and everyone's Extra stage was added to the thcrap patch this morning. Only the endings (and I think the stage 4~5 character title images) are left untranslated.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 23, 2015, 07:04:49 PM
Good to hear! I won't be patching anything until the endings are done, and even then I'll probably wait a while for tweaking and fine-tuning to be complete. Doing Pointdevice with Sanae, currently dealing with Amerifairy and her dancing Moon. When I do clear this game, I want that satisfaction to be enhanced with translated endings.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 23, 2015, 07:06:26 PM
What is with all this talk about everybody hoping that we will see Sagume, Clownpiece, Junko and Hecatia again? There have been plenty of instances of characters that have appeared once and then we never hear of them again.

Cripes, When PoFV was released centuries ago where people all over the internet coming together and hoping that they will see Medicine Melancholy again in a future game?  :smug:

Don't hold your breath guys. ZUN has confirmed in many interviews that he likes to create new characters as a reason to create more bullet patterns that are unique to that character. It's not unreasonable that he simply creates characters for a game and then forgets them (I still remember someone mentioned Hina to ZUN once and he trollishly went "Hina? Who's that?").

To all you Reisen and Mokou fans, you got lucky with the last 2 games but it is simply unreasonable for ZUN to represent a balance of all those characters that he creates unless he cranks out 10 or more games a year or something like that. Unless ZUN decides to create another "Shoot the bullet" or "Impossible Spell Card" variant between Touhou 15 and 16 that brings a cross section of the latest characters in the game as danmaku casters, you might have to settle on cameo appearances in official print works.

Don't worry though, fan doujin works of Junko x Hecatia hentai have got you covered  :P
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 23, 2015, 07:08:48 PM
I think this is an example of the difference between "hope" and "expectation". People might hope to see Clownpiece, Hecatia et al, but I doubt anyone sincerely expects it to happen.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Soul Devour on August 23, 2015, 09:20:32 PM
Well you're wrong. The change start with DS. TD uses a lot of unusual bullets sprites, so I don't really know about it; not to mention I don't play it, but DDC also has those hitboxes LoLK has. Its understandable that you wouldn't know because nobody plays DS, but DS hitboxes are massive.
I can't speak for the collision thing Drake talks about, that may be another factor, but as far as hitboxes itself go, LoLK isn't anything new.

Man, I'd like to think Jaimers knows what he's talking about, since he's only one of the best Touhou players out there. I would hope he had a completely concrete knowledge of prior game's hitboxes and would notice any changes made in future games.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 23, 2015, 09:30:42 PM
I think this is an example of the difference between "hope" and "expectation". People might hope to see Clownpiece, Hecatia et al, but I doubt anyone sincerely expects it to happen.

I'm "expecting" to see some of these characters again, at least once. Since MoF, every game has had at least one character with multiple appearances. Sanae became a main player character, with her, Suwako, and Kanako all being important to the plot of future games. Nitori, Suwako, Utsuho, Koishi, Unzan, Byakuren, Futo, Miko, Mamizou, and Sukuna all became playable in fighters. Seija got her own game, and a bunch of the characters showed up in the manga.

I don't think anyone's expecting to see them as bosses in a main game, or playble characters, or getting their own spinoff, but I'd be really surprised if these characters never showed up again.

And besides that, Hina and Medicine were both pretty unimportant to the plot of their games, and unimportant as a whole in the grand scheme of things. Clownpiece is not really noteable, but Kishin, Junko, and Hecatia certainly are AMERICA.

Edit: fixed
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 23, 2015, 09:39:12 PM
Clownpiece isn't really noteable

You shut your Communist mouth.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 23, 2015, 11:51:47 PM
I imagine most people, when saying they hope to see a character again, mean within ANY official Touhou media, not just the games.  I could be wrong, though, but for the most part, that's a lot more realistic expectation.  Even Hina got her own news article in SoPM, for example and Medicine got a BAiJR one. (poor Yuuka meanwhile took forever just to get a cameo appearance in the mangas when everyone else got cameos in the mangas all over the place)

Hecatia and Junko, surprisingly (for me, since I figured at least Junko's creation was mostly just for LoLK and nothing else since she purified all other aspects out), are practically guaranteed a reappearance somewhere.
All four extra stages ended with the cliffhanger of them going to meet Eirin (and as revealed in Reisen's extra, Eirin wanting to meet them), as well as them looking forward to Gensokyo in general.

Of course, it should go without saying that Clownpiece can go wherever Hecatia goes at the very least, if not more.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 24, 2015, 12:14:27 AM
I imagine most people, when saying they hope to see a character again, mean within ANY official Touhou media, not just the games. 

Yeah that would certainly include me. I just tend to temper my expectations wrt ZUN and character re-appearances, saving the obvious. Mostly because my enjoyment of the story nudges my judgement in terms of who I consider "likely" to re-appear. My track record with that has not been good. I find ZUN unpredictable with this, but maybe I'm not getting his patterns for this, where they exist.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 24, 2015, 12:23:32 AM
Almost all of the characters (not include those from print works) are guaranteed to be in something similar to PMiSS or SoPm, in which Akyuu is going to introduce these characters in her view. This is what I'm expecting.
And I'm also expecting, although this is less plausible, them to be appear in future non-whole-number danmaku game (something like th9.5, 12.5, and 14.3) (I say this is less plausible because it's hard to put character like Kishin into this kind of game and Soga is one of the example who did not appear in the future game).
BTW, some of the characters are going to be in Aya's or Hatete's newpaper, also an expectation.

What I'm hoping is these characters can appear in future manga or other print works.

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Reu on August 24, 2015, 04:40:22 AM
I fully expect some of these characters to make appearances in print works, spinoffs and manga.

Call me delusional or whatever but there's no way these characters are going to get ignored like Medicine and Hina, they have far more relevance and plot around them.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Valar on August 24, 2015, 04:44:49 AM
I imagine they will appear in ZUN's next manga (which is almost confirmed), or WaHH. Don't see them in FS though.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sakurei on August 24, 2015, 05:31:19 AM
Man, I'd like to think Jaimers knows what he's talking about, since he's only one of the best Touhou players out there. I would hope he had a completely concrete knowledge of prior game's hitboxes and would notice any changes made in future games.

I don't consider Jaimers neither one of the best Touhou players out there nor do I even think he's a touhou player. Jaimers treats the touhou series like any other shmups there is, and therefore doesn't indulge too deeply into any of the games. Don't misunderstand, though: he's very good. Very good at shmups, but his knowledge of the touhou games is shallow and doesn't go much beyond how to dodge most patterns, I imagine. Intricacies of the games are most likely lost on him due to little playtime. And the familiarity of hitboxes is something that you don't learn by doing day 3 LNBs like him. He's definitely a good player, but that's why it's important to correct his mistakes, seeing how people would believe him without second thought.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: CyberAngel on August 24, 2015, 10:38:17 AM
[...]since I figured at least Junko's creation was mostly just for LoLK and nothing else since she purified all other aspects out[...]

Intentional or not, this is so deliciously meta it's funny by itself.

That said, when looked at meta level, we have someone with inverted personality and inversion powers, and now someone with purified personality and purification powers. A new pattern? If so, what could be next?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: RaiTo on August 24, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
Am I the only one who finds Clownpiece attractive? I mean she, along with everyone from LoLK, have AMAZING ARTWORK. Are you guys sure ZUN was drunk when he did this game???
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Channy on August 24, 2015, 03:26:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1_9TrcfH9E
Imperfect stage 6 but perfect Junko clear!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on August 24, 2015, 03:47:33 PM

And besides that, Hina and Medicine were both pretty unimportant to the plot of their games, and unimportant as a whole in the grand scheme of things.
Cirno isn't any more important than the other stage 1-2 bosses (with Yuyuko, Nazrin, and Seiran actually being involved in the plots), yet she is one of the most frequent characters in the series. Mystia was playable in PoFV too.
I'd say ZUN goes with whatever he wants, especially if the characters aren't important for the plot. We had Cirno, Wakasagi and Kyouko in ISC, but it could have been Alice, Rumia and Kogasa, and there would have been no difference anyway.
The only thing i can think of is that older characters might appear if their typical locations are in the games, like Yuyuko in TD becuse of divine spirits being mistaken for ghosts, or Cirno in DDC because of the Misty Lake.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 24, 2015, 05:46:48 PM
Can't believe this is real. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1_9TrcfH9E)

Like, wow. No misses and only one bomb used.
So Junko's not impossible to perfect at all ? at first doesn't look like a TAS (that last nonspell smells fishy tho).

EDIT: oh dang someone already pointed this out.
My bad, still amazing.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Validon98 on August 24, 2015, 06:06:46 PM
I don't consider Jaimers neither one of the best Touhou players out there nor do I even think he's a touhou player. Jaimers treats the touhou series like any other shmups there is, and therefore doesn't indulge too deeply into any of the games. Don't misunderstand, though: he's very good. Very good at shmups, but his knowledge of the touhou games is shallow and doesn't go much beyond how to dodge most patterns, I imagine. Intricacies of the games are most likely lost on him due to little playtime. And the familiarity of hitboxes is something that you don't learn by doing day 3 LNBs like him. He's definitely a good player, but that's why it's important to correct his mistakes, seeing how people would believe him without second thought.

*tries to contain annoyance at elitist attitude, barely hanging on for dear life* (Seriously though you are kind of making a big deal out of this, let's not get carried away here. >_>;;; )

Anyhow, uh... I do think, looking over the Extra dialogues, that there is a good chance we'll be seeing Junko and Hecatia again. Probably Clownpiece since she seems to be one of the higher-ups in Hecatia's little hell fairy army, but that depends. Seiren and Ringo might show up along with some other moon rabbits, who knows, Doremy's still probably going to be chilling in the dream world, and Sagume is a big ??? (although like some people have said, the fact she doesn't really appear publicly too much probably means she's not showing up any time soon). Who knows, though? I have a bit of hope.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on August 24, 2015, 06:22:16 PM
Like I said, Junko and Hecate ended on a cliffhanger and are as close to directly stated to appear again as an in-universe statement not stated by a narrator can get.  All four extra stage scenarios slap it in your face that they'll have some relevance to the future (Reisen's especially emphasizes it, as it shows that the feeling of wanting to meet up between them and Eirin is mutual). Clownpiece can be whereever Hecatia is, It's hard to imagine the moon rabbits not sticking around either when they've stated in several cases that they will be staying around. Doremi's a bit more niche, obviously, but her setting is such that ZUN can easily put her in whatever if he feels like it without twisting the plot around (something made semi-clear by her "remember the new guy" trope status that's implied in some of her dialogues.  Like Kogasa's SOPM news article which takes place long before UFO, Doremi can even have appearances that take place in the past due to that)

That really just leaves Segume, although even she currently fills a niche as the only shown Lunarian administrator (the sisters are more like underlings, really) if ZUN needs that for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sakurei on August 24, 2015, 07:19:44 PM
*tries to contain annoyance at elitist attitude, barely hanging on for dear life* (Seriously though you are kind of making a big deal out of this, let's not get carried away here. >_>;;; )

lol k.

I was just correcting a mistake Jaimers made, and then further explained why it's sensible the mistake was made after someone else was (indirectly) asking. There was nothing elitist about that at all.
Maybe I am making a big deal out of his mistake, but that is because if he's not corrected, this misinformation will forever float around the forum, and I would prefer that doesn't happen. That's all.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 24, 2015, 09:28:09 PM
I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of the LoLK cast will probably show up again in things like the printed works. But to break the trend in this thread a little bit, I'm actually personally hoping Junko never appears as a boss again in a future Touhou game. Her danmaku style is just... not interesting at all, save for a couple exceptions (and even those I don't think ZUN "meant" to be as such). Then again, I admit my wish is pretty unrealistic because she's a final boss and those tend to reappear in side games like StB, DS, and ISC. But who knows when the next such game will come out, so I might as well hold hope until then.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lollipop on August 25, 2015, 04:37:23 AM
I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 25, 2015, 05:08:51 AM
I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.

On pointdevice, you can't.

On Legacy, at the end of every chapter you get a score based on the amount of graze you got that chapter and the percent of enemies you killed. If you killed 100% of the enemies and got 200 graze for the chapter, you get a life fragment. The less enemies you kill, the more you have to graze. 3 life pieces = 1 life.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 25, 2015, 05:09:47 AM
I'm still not sure as to how to get lives.

Get 200 graze per chapter, plus shoot down every enemy.

Or miss a few enemies, but get more than 200 graze.

Edit: whoops how did I miss that post?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nightsparrow on August 25, 2015, 05:17:46 AM
I think it's safe to say that most, if not all, of the LoLK cast will probably show up again in things like the printed works. But to break the trend in this thread a little bit, I'm actually personally hoping Junko never appears as a boss again in a future Touhou game. Her danmaku style is just... not interesting at all, save for a couple exceptions (and even those I don't think ZUN "meant" to be as such). Then again, I admit my wish is pretty unrealistic because she's a final boss and those tend to reappear in side games like StB, DS, and ISC. But who knows when the next such game will come out, so I might as well hold hope until then.

She'll have defiled herself with impurity just for kicks so she can use cool spell cards in the side games. Then her defeat dialogue will be, "Hm... maybe plain rings were better after all." And then she'll never appear again.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: snowflake247 on August 25, 2015, 05:20:50 AM
3 life pieces = 1 life.
In the extra stage, however, it's 5 pieces.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on August 25, 2015, 05:29:31 AM
If you killed 100% of the enemies and got 200 graze for the chapter, you get a life fragment. The less enemies you kill, the more you have to graze.
To be more specific, because putting it that way is really confusing, to get a life/bomb piece you need to get one million points from the Chapter Bonus, which is:
Code: [Select]
bonus = graze ? % enemies killed ? 50100% shoot down ratio and 200 graze yields 200 ? 100 ? 50 = 1000000 points, for example. However, going for graze is often safer and more bountiful than trying to kill every enemy.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Zil on August 25, 2015, 09:28:08 AM
I'm quoting this message because I can't find when ZUN started using circles for collision detection, it's a recent change for LoLK's engine?
My understanding is that they were circular in PoFV. http://wikiwiki.jp/thk/?%B2%D6%2F%C8%BD%C4%EA

Am I to believe that ZUN changed them to rectangles for MoF, and then went back to circles at a later time? And if so, when was that time? Nobody here appears to know what they're talking about.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: microfolk on August 25, 2015, 10:20:26 AM
My understanding is that they were circular in PoFV. http://wikiwiki.jp/thk/?%B2%D6%2F%C8%BD%C4%EA

Am I to believe that ZUN changed them to rectangles for MoF, and then went back to circles at a later time? And if so, when was that time? Nobody here appears to know what they're talking about.

It's a really fascinating topic! And holy shit at the knives' hitbox in PoFV I should really play that game more.
I'd love if Drake would elaborate on his message about the hit detection, I believe when they say it's a really easy to understand but I'm really dumb and I need all the help I can get.

(I hope I'm not going off topic but since we're talking about LoLK's hitboxes I guess it's safe to talk about it here?)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 25, 2015, 01:11:20 PM
(I hope I'm not going off topic but since we're talking about LoLK's hitboxes I guess it's safe to talk about it here?)

Yeah I'd say this is very relevant. And I'm honestly surprised no one seems to know when ZUN went from circles to squares to circles again.

Although I'm pretty sure SA also had boxes, as Drake once put out this nightmarish patch for the game that (I think) removed the bullet art and just left black squares behind.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sakurei on August 25, 2015, 02:14:57 PM
SA definitely had boxes. There is no way in hell the hitboxes on the bosses and some bullets were circular when I played it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on August 25, 2015, 03:13:41 PM
To be more specific, because putting it that way is really confusing, to get a life/bomb piece you need to get one million points from the Chapter Bonus, which is:
Code: [Select]
bonus = graze ? % enemies killed ? 50100% shoot down ratio and 200 graze yields 200 ? 100 ? 50 = 1000000 points, for example. However, going for graze is often safer and more bountiful than trying to kill every enemy.

That is way more confusing. You need to 200 graze at 100% kills, and proportionally more if you kill less, ie: 400 graze at 50%. It's incredibly simple, enough to allow you to math it out on the fly if you need to.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ☆ Hinalyte on August 25, 2015, 04:30:09 PM
http://puu.sh/jO883.png (http://puu.sh/jO883.png)
Encountered a bug where you can't shoot Junko in Extra Stage. What happened was I used a bomb before timing out Hecatia's Lunatic Impact spellcard. Don't know if this happens on other nonspells.

Can anyone confirm this?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Mero on August 25, 2015, 05:13:21 PM
Yeah I'd say this is very relevant. And I'm honestly surprised no one seems to know when ZUN went from circles to squares to circles again.

Although I'm pretty sure SA also had boxes, as Drake once put out this nightmarish patch for the game that (I think) removed the bullet art and just left black squares behind.
Can't say that I knew, but I'm not really surprised about hitbox changes. In Zil's example, everyone calls PoFV Sakuya's knives BS, yet no one bats an eye for Kanako's knives in MoF. Also the circle bullets now kill you at the slightest contact with the sprite, when in SA you could almost be full hitbox inside one and not die

I'm more interested about what Drake said of the way collision is handled, I wonder if this is why the yin-yang in ISC made your hitbox smaller only for lasers, but not regular bullets
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: SomeGuy712x on August 25, 2015, 06:32:33 PM
http://puu.sh/jO883.png (http://puu.sh/jO883.png)
Encountered a bug where you can't shoot Junko in Extra Stage. What happened was I used a bomb before timing out Hecatia's Lunatic Impact spellcard. Don't know if this happens on other nonspells.

Can anyone confirm this?
Yep, just tried it, and if you bomb just before Lunatic Impact times out, Junko becomes invincible and unshootable during the following non-spell. Resulted in a very nice Game Over for me on that run, because I have almost no luck getting through those super-dense rings, and I usually bomb there. But, I ran out of resources well before that non-spell could time out. Replay link. (http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/12382/th15_24.rpy)

Also, another glitch which I mentioned in a different thread earlier: That very non-spell of Junko's doesn't give a "Chapter Finish" bonus when you complete it, even though it resets the chapter graze counter when the next spell card starts. That resulted in me not getting an extra life that I desperately needed when I was at 0 lives and 4/5 life pieces in another run. Replay link. (http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/12382/th15_25.rpy)

Oh, and one other very minor thing: The 1-up you get for capturing Doremy Sweet's third spell in the Extra Stage doesn't make the usual 1-up sound effect when you collect it, but that doesn't affect gameplay at all.

I wonder if there's any chance ZUN will fix these glitches...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 25, 2015, 06:52:08 PM
The unshootable glitch is kinda problematic, it might be patched out. I imagine he knows about it by now but you never know.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 25, 2015, 08:17:47 PM
Somehow I just can't get excited about Extra this time around. After the madness and incredible fun of Pointdevice, Extra just feels kinda... bland, I guess. The non-spells seem to go on forever and the fight feels like one big slog.

I like Hecatia, though. The freaky t-shirt weirdo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 25, 2015, 10:31:19 PM
It seems I can't reach Hecatia's survival no matter what, I get game over on Junko's second spellcard.
Hecatia's blue and second pink nonspell needs to get a balance patch, as well as Junko's nonspells. I haven't seen anyone get past them without bombing once.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 25, 2015, 11:23:16 PM
It seems I can't reach Hecatia's survival no matter what, I get game over on Junko's second spellcard.
Hecatia's blue and second pink nonspell needs to get a balance patch, as well as Junko's nonspells. I haven't seen anyone get past them without bombing once.
Will this do? (http://replay.royalflare.net/replay/th15_udy988.rpy) I know I bombed the second blue nonspell, but that's because I misread where the fast lanes were going. Hecatia's blue nonspells are actually pretty similar in terms of overall "function", the second one just has a couple more rows of kunai in the background during the lulls between waves, when it doesn't matter a whole lot (they're much more dangerous when you have to dodge them and the lanes at the same time). The second pink nonspell is actually a mirror version of the first pink one (i.e., instead of the lanes going right then left, they go left then right), outside of the extra kunai of course. The kunai still have tiny tiny hitboxes though, so even if you don't follow the lanes there's still a surprising amount of room to move. Junko's nonspells are pretty much no different from the third nonspell from her boss fight on Lunatic - her first one in Extra actually is exactly the same, while the second one has one more row of bullets per wave. Oh, and the bullets are colored red, if that means anything. Perhaps that's why some people find Junko's Extra nonspells so tough, because they're technically taken straight out of Lunatic.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 25, 2015, 11:53:06 PM
Will this do? (http://replay.royalflare.net/replay/th15_udy988.rpy) I know I bombed the second blue nonspell, but that's because I misread where the fast lanes were going. Hecatia's blue nonspells are actually pretty similar in terms of overall "function", the second one just has a couple more rows of kunai in the background during the lulls between waves, when it doesn't matter a whole lot (they're much more dangerous when you have to dodge them and the lanes at the same time). The second pink nonspell is actually a mirror version of the first pink one (i.e., instead of the lanes going right then left, they go left then right), outside of the extra kunai of course. The kunai still have tiny tiny hitboxes though, so even if you don't follow the lanes there's still a surprising amount of room to move. Junko's nonspells are pretty much no different from the third nonspell from her boss fight on Lunatic - her first one in Extra actually is exactly the same, while the second one has one more row of bullets per wave. Oh, and the bullets are colored red, if that means anything. Perhaps that's why some people find Junko's Extra nonspells so tough, because they're technically taken straight out of Lunatic.

Oh thank you, I could hardly find a safe route on the blue ones. I actually have problems guessing if the second kunai wave is aimed at you or comes randomly, but I mostly end up not paying enough attention to the slow kunais on the background and then I screw up.

Junko's problem is that she ends up coming close sometimes and predicting a safe route is near impossible. I would have actually preferred if her nonspells were replaced with the waves similar to her "Trembling, Shivering Star" spellcard, in which forces you to do fast horizontal movements instead of completely random rings that everyone just plain bombs instead of testing their luck.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 26, 2015, 12:04:37 AM
It seems I can't reach Hecatia's survival no matter what, I get game over on Junko's second spellcard.
Hecatia's blue and second pink nonspell needs to get a balance patch, as well as Junko's nonspells. I haven't seen anyone get past them without bombing once.

I think I have seen LoLK extra no miss no bomb somewhere before
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on August 26, 2015, 12:15:08 AM
Junko's problem is that she ends up coming close sometimes and predicting a safe route is near impossible. I would have actually preferred if her nonspells were replaced with the waves similar to her "Trembling, Shivering Star" spellcard, in which forces you to do fast horizontal movements instead of completely random rings that everyone just plain bombs instead of testing their luck.
The last few rows of each wave also alternate, just like the entirety of Trembling Shivering Star, so you don't have to worry about reading every single row for the nonspells. Read the first two-thirds or so as they come down (you can do this even if Junko moves down) and plan a route for yourself so you're not caught off-guard by anything. I also like to use friction on these attacks to make sure my movements are precise enough.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 26, 2015, 02:19:24 PM
I'm playing a no-bombs run in PD just for the sake of having a "Perfect" run. I'm on Junko's final spell and I can't do it :( I've come so far!!!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 26, 2015, 03:07:24 PM
Watching Legacy replays has given me a bit of help, for what it's worth. Although it seems Extra is time2bomb for the most part.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: BB on August 26, 2015, 05:33:34 PM
I did it I did it! I... really wish Pointdevice could save replays! That last spell is trouble!

Somewhat sobering thought, I now have proof that I'm technically capable of a no-miss no-bomb run of Legacy.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 26, 2015, 08:46:21 PM
I did it I did it! I... really wish Pointdevice could save replays! That last spell is trouble!

Somewhat sobering thought, I now have proof that I'm technically capable of a no-miss no-bomb run of Legacy.

Congratulations! I just managed the final spell card myself, pulling off a lunatic no-bombs pointdevice run after two failed attempts at the achievement. Though, in order to handle it I did make use of a bug/feature I discovered that allows you to fix the amount of power you have on pointdevice mode at 4.00, given a lot of failures. It makes me wish Junko dropped any power items after her survival so you didn't almost certainly have to face the final at 3.00 power.

I have to say though, this game really has delivered in all the ways I hoped it would. I was a bit skeptical of Junko's brand of difficulty at first, but after giving some time to learn everything she's pretty fun. I dare say this game may be in my top five favorite Touhous.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 26, 2015, 08:55:19 PM
Yeah, exiting the game from PD and then re-entering seems to start you out at 4. It's been around since the trial as well, if I remember right. So either it's a bug ZUN's overlooked or intentional, for as long as it's been there.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Mero on August 26, 2015, 10:32:53 PM
Yeah, exiting the game from PD and then re-entering seems to start you out at 4. It's been around since the trial as well, if I remember right. So either it's a bug ZUN's overlooked or intentional, for as long as it's been there.
Probably overlooked, because the game still tracks all retries (e.g.: if you quit at 20 retries and take another 10 going back, the chapter lists 30 tries)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Shadowlupus on August 27, 2015, 01:04:17 PM
I finally get to play LoLK. Try Reisen on Normal Pointdevice mode to see how hard it is. The first 3 stages give me no problems. I think I find Doremy's attacks a lot easier than in the demo. ZUN must have fixed that. Things are going smoothly, having around 6 full bombs...until all are wasted on stage 4 and Sagume. Then on stage 5, DAT hellish wallmaku takes me about 50 tries before I can finally pass through it. I quit playing after dying several times on Clownpiece's first spell. She does a good job of trying to turn me into a complete lunatic.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 27, 2015, 07:46:35 PM
Yeah, on Pointdevice, the worst mistake you can make is wasting bombs on something you could probably clear without toooo many retries and then you hit stage 5~6 with only a couple bombs or less.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phasm on August 28, 2015, 01:32:54 AM
Pointdevice is supposed to make you familiar with patterns so that you can clear then with relative ease and improve overall dodging skills, i personally only use bombs when really really necessary x cough cough Clownpiece cough cough x
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Avakyon on August 28, 2015, 01:38:47 AM
So, something very strange happens when I start from stage 4 of this replay (http://score.royalflare.net/th15/replay15/th15_ud00fb.rpy). It desyncs, but also at one point using cheat engine I notice the lives value go from 0 to 4294967295 (largest 32-bit unsigned integer) and starts decreasing from there meaning the replay continues throughout the stage with millions of lives. Somehow it seems to resync and fix the lives at stage 5, but still could prove "interesting" provided it can be triggered in normal gameplay somehow.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 28, 2015, 01:40:00 AM
I actually ran out of bombs some time in Stage 4. Earned another one early in Stage 6, wasted it on garbage.

Yeah be careful with your bombs in PD is the lesson I take away from this.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Darkness1 on August 28, 2015, 10:09:18 AM
After clearing through PointDevice mode on this game on normal difficulty, my first impressions are:
God damn I never want to face Clownpiece ever again. Some of her spells felt like they were Lunatic level, overall she's way harder than Junko. Clownpiece's spellcards were the only patterns I felt forced to bomb on normal, I managed to capture Striped Abyss once, but with like 70 deaths.

Personally I found Junko's fight pretty charming (unless I'm just biased since her design and theme is easily my favorite from the cast) but Clownpiece just felt wrong, on so many levels. She earns a solid spot amongst my least favorite bosses so far.

Edit: anyone got any advice for Clownpiece's Graze Hell spellcard? I cant figure it out.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phasm on August 28, 2015, 11:49:02 AM
After clearing through PointDevice mode on this game on normal difficulty, my first impressions are:
God damn I never want to face Clownpiece ever again. Some of her spells felt like they were Lunatic level, overall she's way harder than Junko. Clownpiece's spellcards were the only patterns I felt forced to bomb on normal, I managed to capture Striped Abyss once, but with like 70 deaths.

Personally I found Junko's fight pretty charming (unless I'm just biased since her design and theme is easily my favorite from the cast) but Clownpiece just felt wrong, on so many levels. She earns a solid spot amongst my least favorite bosses so far.

Edit: anyone got any advice for Clownpiece's Graze Hell spellcard? I cant figure it out.

If you're refering to Clownpiece's Graze Inferno, yeah it's actually really hard specially if you run out of bombs early and have to beat Clowpiece without them, basically when you graze the row of bullets they slow down or stop completely, this can be a good thing and a bad thing, namelly concerning the position of the stoping bullets, in this spellcard you have to psyche it if you use Reimu it's easier because of her Homing amulets, and always unfocus to get to a new row of bullets so that you aren't forced to the end of the screen.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 29, 2015, 02:00:01 AM
Great, another person who did a perfect extra stage
Now all we need is someone who can do a perfect stage 6 run aka make the impossible challenge possible....
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 29, 2015, 05:26:10 PM
Great, another person who did a perfect extra stage

Is it on youtube?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phasm on August 29, 2015, 05:28:09 PM
Speaking about the extra stage, in your opinion how does Hecatia fare in terms of dificulty to other extra bosses?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 29, 2015, 05:32:34 PM
Speaking about the extra stage, in your opinion how does Hecatia fare in terms of dificulty to other extra bosses?

In my opinion, I would put her on the upper end of extra boss difficulty, though I have only beaten her once. Though many of her attacks are trick-based like most extra bosses, they take some skill to execute even once you understand the pattern. Also, her non-spells are as a whole the toughest of any extra boss I've seen. Between that and Junko's stealth hi/byes, I'd say she may be one of the toughest extra bosses in the series to date. That opinion may change as I continue to learn her attacks though.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on August 29, 2015, 06:10:53 PM
Speaking about the extra stage, in your opinion how does Hecatia fare in terms of dificulty to other extra bosses?

I'd put Hecatia on the easier end of things. For one thing, her stage is stupidly easy except for 1 or 2 parts (which are still fairly easy) and Doremy (who is quite hard). As for Hecatia herself, most of her spell cards are also fairly easy. Her "Spirit World (red)" spellcards would fit in both thematically and difficulty wise on Lunatic Hina (a stage 2 boss). Her "Earth (blue)" spell cards are a bit more challenging, but I they're still quite easy for an extra boss. Her "Moon (yellow)", as well as her nonspells spellcards are all quite hard, and if her entire battle were like that she'd be the hardest extra boss to date. Junko's 1st spell is very stressful and difficult ., but her 2nd is laughably easy. The final and survival cards are easier than Suwako.

All around, I'd say she's definitely in the easier half in terms of extra bosses. But she's got a few patterns that would fit in in fairy wars, and those alone can eat up a lot of your resources.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on August 29, 2015, 09:11:17 PM
Hecatia's nonspells are waaaayyyy harder than her spells, imo.
Not sure if everyone thinks like that, but oh well.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 29, 2015, 10:14:46 PM
Her second purple nonspell and both blue nonspells are kinda crazy.

Junko's are even worse, though. Mostly in an annoying "just bomb it" way, though.

In other news, I have learned that yes, pointdevice registers your clear and deletes your autosave before actually starting the ending screens. I now have a clear with no player data register, which is awkward somewhat because it was a No Death run ;_; But it was Reisen Easy Mode pointdevice (I mean 0 retries) so it wasn't that special anyway.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on August 29, 2015, 11:24:08 PM
Speaking about the extra stage, in your opinion how does Hecatia fare in terms of dificulty to other extra bosses?

I'd put her around Mokou/Ran tier, she's not as easy as Raiko, Nue or Suwako but not as hard as Flandre or Koishi.
Hecatia may seem easy only if you bomb her entire battle, but her laser spam and moon impact spell are rather tricky. A lot of micrododging is required on the most part.

Though, If I had to try to do a run against both Koishi and Hecatia without bombing, I'd definitely do better on Koishi, simply because I suck at micrododging. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 29, 2015, 11:26:44 PM
Might be colored by my experiences so far, but I'm about ready to put the Extra Stage as the hardest among the Windows games. The stage portion is mostly trivial stuff, but there are exceptions such as those random spam sections before and after Doremy that are easy to screw up, those bean-spamming big fairies that you have to shoot down fast or the last criss-crossing bean section, which is easily high-end Lunatic tier and rather long. Doremy's mostly easy peasy, but Crawling Bullet likes to be a jerk from time to time and has that double kill bullshit Nueball had going unless you bomb before the card as Reisen.

Hecatia's nonspells are unheard-of brutal by Extra standards (barring Mokou's rings of death) and have tons of HP - the pink one is obviously the worst due to barely enough space to squeeze into, but the blue ones also have the tendency to overlap just in the right way to box you in, and Junko's nonspells are basically soft resource caps unless you're very confident in your microtaps. The first and the second card are easy once you get the hang of them, but the gloves come off by Apollo Reflection Mirror, which demands some very quick thinking. Trapped Rat looks like a riddle and Rain Falling in Hell is very much manageable, but Hell's Non-Ideal Danmaku screws pretty bad with my reading ability. Lunatic Impact demands on-point microreads, good rhythm and the ability to keep calm under pressure. Pristine Danmaku might as well be another softcap. As for the survival card, depends on whether those things are static or not, but the later barrages of all three phases demand consistent guessing of the trajectories of tiny bullets on a split-second basis that I certainly cannot boast. Finally, the last card seems pretty manageable, but I haven't reached it yet.

All things considered, I do not want to prononunce LoLK Extra as the hardest Windows Extra yet - UFO certainly boasts a way harder stage portion and Mamizou's latter half of the fight is brutal enough that I feel reclutant to dethrone her from the hardest EX-boss on my list. But LoLK is easily up there among the hardest - a far cry from DDC, where I cruised through on the first day thanks to the more broken shot types (or the likes of PCB or MoF, which I could just resource through after getting the hang of some patterns for the matter). This time, I advance forward inch by inch purely by dropping man-hours into getting the hang of everything.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: gilde on August 30, 2015, 05:41:51 AM
Hecatia's purple nonspells are the Literal Worst because she can suddenly decide to move way too low on the screen (http://imgur.com/blYeFM9). On one of my runs she hovered at that height for four consecutive waves.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on August 30, 2015, 05:53:33 AM
Is it on youtube?

So far I have not seen any perfect extra on youtube yet.
There are now two perfect extra videos on bilibili (a Chinese video website that is basically a rip-off of niconico)
and at least one on niconico (there could be more but I haven't checked it yet)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on August 30, 2015, 10:10:07 AM
http://score.royalflare.net/th15/levelchar15.html#L4C0 (http://score.royalflare.net/th15/levelchar15.html#L4C0)
The first run on the list is a Reimu Extra Stage NDNB.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 30, 2015, 11:27:11 AM
In other news, I have learned that yes, pointdevice registers your clear and deletes your autosave before actually starting the ending screens. I now have a clear with no player data register, which is awkward somewhat because it was a No Death run ;_; But it was Reisen Easy Mode pointdevice (I mean 0 retries) so it wasn't that special anyway.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I was able to register (http://i.imgur.com/4uONe3Vl.png) player data for my Sanae Easy PD clear. Though I don't remember if this popped up before or after the ending to be honest.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on August 30, 2015, 01:00:33 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I was able to register (http://i.imgur.com/4uONe3Vl.png) player data for my Sanae Easy PD clear. Though I don't remember if this popped up before or after the ending to be honest.
Oh, oops, I had forgotten to write part of the post. I had meant to stop the run at the last spellcard so that I could finish the save later and then beat the last card when Reisen's ending was translated; however, I got so into the no death run I forgot until it said "STAGE CLEAR!" on the last stage >.> Whooops. It still let me go back to the menu and click "Return to Title Screen"... but it had already recorded it as a clear and given me a clear stamp and deleted the save. Before I got to the data entry screen, ending, or credits. XD
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: aListers on August 31, 2015, 02:54:46 PM
What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sedrife on August 31, 2015, 06:38:44 PM
Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing. 

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on August 31, 2015, 06:40:05 PM
Quote
What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.

Waiting for Touhou to be released in the west is akin to waiting for ZUN to give up beer forever... don't hold your breath buddy :derp:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 31, 2015, 07:24:07 PM
Waiting for Touhou to be released in the west is akin to waiting for ZUN to give up beer forever... don't hold your breath buddy :derp:

Uh, does this count (http://playism-games.com/game/215/double-dealing-character) as "released in the West"? I mean, if by "released in the West" he meant "available at GameStop" then no, not likely. But online distribution has already started in the West.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Uruwi on August 31, 2015, 08:01:08 PM
Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing.

Aside from using the original Japanese terms, one could refer to the latter as "cleansing" or "refinement".
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: UTW on August 31, 2015, 08:01:19 PM
What are the chances of this game being released in the west or at least online? I'm not sure if I should get the game now or wait for a release in the west.

I think it's likely to hit Playism, so maybe wait until then. Who knows how quickly that will be, though.

Heads up to any Touhouwiki contributers, is there any separate terms that we can use for Lunarian's purification (浄化) vs. Junko's purification (純化)? 
Mixing these two terms up will bring a lot of confusion to English communities, thinking that they mean the same thing.

First, I don't think it's terribly necessary since there's already a note in Junko's article. But if I had to change one it might actually be the Lunarian purification, which already has its share of misunderstanding, anyway. It's definitely not always recommended translation procedure, but since it's a very abstract Japanese concept not easily duplicated with a singular word in English, I'd be inclined to just leave it as kegare like other non-1:1 Japanese words sometimes left as is in translation. On the other hand, even with all the misunderstandings that still exist, the Lunarian version has like 8 years on the new one and it's sometimes hard to enforce change.

Edit: But if Junko's were to change I think "refine" would probably be best.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Raikaria on August 31, 2015, 09:21:53 PM
TH15 makes me realize how heavily my interest with the series is tied to mythology. I mean I've always been a mythology and theory junkie but TH15 is very lukewarm for me.

Aside from the 'Moon Rabbits' and of course Doremi [A Baku]... there's not really any real myths playing out. Just Lunarian stuff. I mean sure Hecatia is somewhat based on Hecete but it feels loose. Junko is basically an OC with no solid mythological connotations, making me less invested in caring about her and the story. [Hell she's a Stage 6 boss who dosen't even have a 2nd name]. It's to the point there's not even an 'origin' section for her on the wiki.

It's like; why on earth should I care about Junko? I've faced vampires, gods, saints, possibly satan, The Yama, and so on. And now... we have... Junko. Just Junko.  Some Lunarian who became a spirit of vengeance. And unlike Mima we actually know what the source of her hate is. So she dosen't even have that mystery.

The characters don't have me asking big questions either, although that could be fixed with development in the future. The new character that interests me the most is the Stage 3 boss. Which doesn't exactly get me that hyped for the game. And if I'm not motivated to fight the Stage 6 boss, I'm not gonna be motivated to fight through the rest.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: UTW on August 31, 2015, 09:53:59 PM
TH15 makes me realize how heavily my interest with the series is tied to mythology. I mean I've always been a mythology and theory junkie but TH15 is very lukewarm for me.

Aside from the 'Moon Rabbits' and of course Doremi [A Baku]... there's not really any real myths playing out. Just Lunarian stuff. I mean sure Hecatia is somewhat based on Hecete but it feels loose. Junko is basically an OC with no solid mythological connotations, making me less invested in caring about her and the story. [Hell she's a Stage 6 boss who dosen't even have a 2nd name]. It's to the point there's not even an 'origin' section for her on the wiki.

It's like; why on earth should I care about Junko? I've faced vampires, gods, saints, possibly satan, The Yama, and so on. And now... we have... Junko. Just Junko.  Some Lunarian who became a spirit of vengeance. And unlike Mima we actually know what the source of her hate is. So she dosen't even have that mystery.

The characters don't have me asking big questions either, although that could be fixed with development in the future. The new character that interests me the most is the Stage 3 boss. Which doesn't exactly get me that hyped for the game. And if I'm not motivated to fight the Stage 6 boss, I'm not gonna be motivated to fight through the rest.

Well the Lunarians are definitely rooted in mythology. The ones introduced so far are all based on various kami who are relative big shots or are at least well-known names.

Junko is definitely myth/folklore based, too. Not an OC by any means. As for why she doesn't yet have an Origin entry, her basis is obscure even for Touhou due to it being a Chinese story that is, for the most part untranslated to English and little known, so even moreso for us westerners. So deriving the source relies on those more knowledgeable to sniff it out. Her basis is also half speculation and the wiki tries not to rely too heavily on that, so it comes down to presenting it in a way that stays true. Additionally, most information about Junko's background comes from Reisen's ending, which is still untranslated, so that needs to be waited on...not only translated, but maybe even for spoilers to pass, before adding it to the wiki so as not to spoil anything.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tengukami on August 31, 2015, 11:04:25 PM

Eh, there's a lot of mythology, both Japanese and Chinese, tied in with this game. I don't know how you missed this, especially where Junko is concerned. But ultimately this complaint reads like "this isn't the game I wanted it to be" so ...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on September 01, 2015, 12:12:25 AM


I have no idea how you draw this conclusion. Kishin, Hecatia, and Junko (even Houyi, Chang'e, and Apollo) are all based on characters from mythology and legend.

EDIT: Looks like you haven't read the ending, huh?  Maybe you should check the endings and reconsider your thoughts.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on September 01, 2015, 12:36:03 AM
Has a consensus been reached on Junko's backstory? [...]
Now that the discussion has shifted back to folklore: have we learned/speculated anything new about Junko since this was asked a while ago? I'm quite keen on new info. Some crackpot ideas (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18780.msg1208323.html#msg1208323) I posted before... :blush:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: UTW on September 01, 2015, 01:12:18 AM
Now that the discussion has shifted back to folklore: have we learned/speculated anything new about Junko since this was asked a while ago? I'm quite keen on new info. Some crackpot ideas (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18780.msg1208323.html#msg1208323) I posted before... :blush:

Not really. I think it's the same information we've always had since the Xuan Qi stuff was found. For what it's worth, here are passages corroborating what's been said from some threads on 4chan which I could find again if I wanted, but it's mostly bullshitting besides these bits, anyway (1 (http://i.imgur.com/8OYN6o2.png),2 (http://i.imgur.com/1t8Dpwi.jpg)). Also, here (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/oath-sign-seventh-heaven.21252/page-25)'s a discussion that mostly says the same stuff, but also brings up the Huli jing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huli_jing). I have no idea if they're right about the huli jing's traits, though, or if it's even significant enough to Junko to include (sort of like Xihe whose connection is tenuous). Also, here (http://baike.baidu.com/subview/3030763/18618636.htm)'s a page on Baidu using Junko's name, no idea if it's relevant.

I think if we don't bother with the extraneous stuff like Xihe's possible influence, then Junko's origin is rather straightforward. The problem, then, is the Yi/Houyi mess: which story came first, was one simply based on the other, were they distinct, etc. But given even the Chinese or scholars are confused about it all, it's probably pointless for us to wonder too much about it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on September 02, 2015, 11:29:38 PM
Thanks for this.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on September 04, 2015, 02:53:45 AM
Personally, I want to clear up some details on Sagume. Her profile states that the spread of the apollo coverup theory would materialize the Lunar Capital in Gensokyo.
Quote from: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Sagume_Kishin#Official_Profiles
The "Lunar Capital Transfer Plan" was to purify Gensokyo and build a new capital there. To 'purify' is to eliminate life and death. That is to say, they were going to annihilate all the living things on the Earth's surface.
I wonder if that means that just bringing the Lunar Capital to Gensokyo would have the reverse effect of what Clownpiece was doing on the moon and kill all life. I don't recall if the precise mechanics of urban legend materialization were explored in ULiL, but since that migration of the Lunar Capital sounds obviously permament, I assume that's a different kind of urban legend materialization than the momentary effects from the gameplay (as Lunar Capital is one of the gameplay effects).

Also, do we have any kind of estimate of the size of the Lunar Capital in canon? If it's supposed to fit in Gensokyo, I can't be *that* big, but the profile above speaks about the annihilation of all life from the Earth's surface. If so then damn, Sagume's power is pretty scary and Sumireko was *this* close to bringing around the end of the world.

Although, that also makes me wonder why did Sagure continue the invasion after her best bet (Sumireko's Lunar Capital ball activation) already failed and she was left with plain old rabbit invasion as the takeover method. Did she hope to somehow subdue the earthlings with the rabbits and go along with the purification plan anyway, or did she not count on Sumireko's activation in the first place (seeing as she refered to the Fake Apollo plan as merely an insurance she considered and the Lunarians themselves are stated to be opposed to the idea of moving the Capital in her profile - either Sagume didn't know how close Sumireko came to activating the ball or Sumireko's suicide attack would actually NOT be enough to bring the Capital to the Earth, only smash the Hakurei Barrier - or Sagume's just fucking cold enough to bluff about the extend of danger in order to save face and not anger someone whom she can exploit to help her retake the Capital)?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on September 04, 2015, 04:58:46 AM
Okay, so that particular line is probably not quite correct. It seems to assert that their plan was to eliminate all life on Earth, but this is clearly stupid if the goal was to get a rumor started to live in Gensokyo. If you wiped out every living thing on the planet you could just take the whole planet, which eliminates the whole reason Lunarians are on the moon in the first place. Among other reasons, this is just not the case. The line says 「全ての地上の生き物を殲滅する」, and particularly 地上 here means "surface", not "Earth", which would have been 地球 or something. They were trying to wipe out the area so they could move there, hence the rover killing the wildlife. Just Gensokyo, not the whole planet.

As far as its relation to the Power Stone, Sagume likely was not aware of Sumireko's dumb antics in particular. Sumireko dumping their power to break the Barrier wasn't part of any plan; the Power Stone was just the means for the rumor to make its way into Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 04, 2015, 01:30:36 PM
Semiimportant plot detail about a Marisa ending that contradicts what was stated here earlier-
the lunar capital power stone does not disappear in her Good Ending, unless the translation is borked; just Yukari disappears. Their talk implies it may continue to be important in the future.

In other news, the patch has all the endings translated now, but several of them are still pretty rough around the edges... and Sanae's legacy ending is almost google translate tier. Reimu's are mostly fine but have some awkward wording, Marisa's are good and I haven't gotten Reisen's yet (simply because they were the last to come out, just overnight now, and I have to go to work now)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Critz on September 04, 2015, 03:17:43 PM
So, Yukari isn't *as* shady as I thought she would be, but that doesn't change the fact that her role in recent events doesn't endear her to me one bit.

Okay, so that particular line is probably not quite correct. It seems to assert that their plan was to eliminate all life on Earth, but this is clearly stupid if the goal was to get a rumor started to live in Gensokyo. If you wiped out every living thing on the planet you could just take the whole planet, which eliminates the whole reason Lunarians are on the moon in the first place. Among other reasons, this is just not the case. The line says 「全ての地上の生き物を殲滅する」, and particularly 地上 here means "surface", not "Earth", which would have been 地球 or something. They were trying to wipe out the area so they could move there, hence the rover killing the wildlife. Just Gensokyo, not the whole planet.
A sound argument. I concur.

As far as its relation to the Power Stone, Sagume likely was not aware of Sumireko's dumb antics in particular. Sumireko dumping their power to break the Barrier wasn't part of any plan; the Power Stone was just the means for the rumor to make its way into Gensokyo.
That's certainly a possibility, although on the outside-narrative level, I consider it too contrived that Sumireko could use the Power Stone in some other way than to materialize the Lunar Capital and still achieve the same effect (destruction of Gensokyo). Especially considering Reimu's wording:

Quote from: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Urban_Legend_in_Limbo/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario
Reimu: But the Lunar Capital ball is the only one that's not from the Outside World! Maybe she was being used by someone else, I don't know. I think she probably hasn't realized it herself... But if that ball's true power is used in its current condition, it'll connect to somewhere other than Gensokyo as well!

After giving it another thought, I'm still not fully convinced about that "Clownpiece made it possible to breath on the moon" thing either, because she wasn't there during SSiB, and Reimu, Marisa, Remilia and Sakuya could breathe just fine. Since SSiB also had an actual ocean made of water (http://bato.to/read/_/51288/touhou-bougetsushou-silent-sinner-in-blue_ch12_by_gaku-gaku-animal-land/2) on the moon as opposed to the basalt maria as well as trees that could possibly produce oxygen, I think I'll just settle on a handwave that the Touhou!Moon is different from the moon we know and Clownpiece's impurity has nothing to do with it. Unless some of you guys got a better explanation.

In other news, the patch has all the endings translated now, but several of them are still pretty rough around the edges... and Sanae's legacy ending is almost google translate tier. Reimu's are mostly fine but have some awkward wording, Marisa's are good and I haven't gotten Reisen's yet (simply because they were the last to come out, just overnight now, and I have to go to work now)
With all due respect to the translation and his/her effort, I think I'll hold on with translating the endings into Polish so far. Especially since Clarste-senpai already gave us quick translations of most of the endings a while ago (Reimu Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5133#128311), Marisa Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5134#128339) and Pointdevice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5132#128287) and Sanae Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5132#128295) and Pointdevice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5135#128353)), and it looks better than the one on thpatch.net.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on September 04, 2015, 03:31:23 PM
It's great to hear that the translation effort is going along nicely. I am looking forward to finally playing this game in a way that I can understand what is going on.

Please though, lets not release an English patch in a state where things can be misinterpreted or if the translation is Google translate tier. Lets release something that we can be proud of, like ZUN would have.  :moogy:
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Prime32 on September 04, 2015, 04:12:00 PM
After giving it another thought, I'm still not fully convinced about that "Clownpiece made it possible to breath on the moon" thing either, because she wasn't there during SSiB, and Reimu, Marisa, Remilia and Sakuya could breathe just fine. Since SSiB also had an actual ocean made of water (http://bato.to/read/_/51288/touhou-bougetsushou-silent-sinner-in-blue_ch12_by_gaku-gaku-animal-land/2) on the moon as opposed to the basalt maria as well as trees that could possibly produce oxygen, I think I'll just settle on a handwave that the Touhou!Moon is different from the moon we know and Clownpiece's impurity has nothing to do with it. Unless some of you guys got a better explanation.
As I understand it, the Clownpiece Corps were on the Near Side of the Moon, not the Far Side - i.e. the Outside World.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on September 04, 2015, 04:52:10 PM
It's great to hear that the translation effort is going along nicely. I am looking forward to finally playing this game in a way that I can understand what is going on.

Please though, lets not release an English patch in a state where things can be misinterpreted or if the translation is Google translate tier. Lets release something that we can be proud of, like ZUN would have.  :moogy:

Technically, the "released patch" will be automatically updated so that you can always have the most up to date translations. Also, anyone is free to help translate on thpatch.net (http://thpatch.net)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on September 04, 2015, 05:56:07 PM
With all due respect to the translation and his/her effort, I think I'll hold on with translating the endings into Polish so far. Especially since Clarste-senpai already gave us quick translations of most of the endings a while ago (Reimu Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5133#128311), Marisa Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5134#128339) and Pointdevice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5132#128287) and Sanae Legacy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5132#128295) and Pointdevice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=yci5c9o4sux9pa1gajmuooqm&page=5135#128353)), and it looks better than the one on thpatch.net.
So, the reason youkai couldn't interfere with the invasion is because
they couldn't see or feel the vehicle or the rabbits
.
Also, seems like
Yukari actually stole the occult ball (unless it disappeared on its own). I wonder if she's gonna use it in some way in the near future?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Raikaria on September 04, 2015, 09:04:00 PM
Eh, there's a lot of mythology, both Japanese and Chinese, tied in with this game. I don't know how you missed this, especially where Junko is concerned. But ultimately this complaint reads like "this isn't the game I wanted it to be" so ...

Junko's mythology basis is that her child was killed when Houyi shot down the suns. That would be cool and all... except no part of that legend says the sun fell on someone. So while Junko's motive is myth, Junko herself is not; which leads me to care very little about Junko [Also her rivalry being with Chang'e when it was Houyi who shot down the suns is also warped]. And when I don't care about Junko it's hard to find motivation to drive onwards. It's a personal problem, not a problem with the game. There's a difference in my drive to beat, say, Sukana [Descendant of Isshin] or Kaguya [The Bamboo Cutter Princess] or Eiki [The Yama] or Utusho [Basically an avatar of Yatagarasu] to beating Yuyuko; Byakuren or Junko.

I also play 14; 8; and 13 [Miko being Shōtoku outright] the most. My personal tastes and what I enjoy about the series is strongest in those games. [14 less so].

I have a somewhat similar problem with UFO. Byakuren herself isn't a mythological figure or really tied to one. Shou drives me through however being the Avatar of Bishamoten.

I'm in no way saying TH15 is bad. It's just... harder for me to muster up the drive. It FEELS more rewarding to me to beat a character with some great status who myths and legends exist about than someone like Junko.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ChronaSE on September 04, 2015, 11:37:58 PM
I would have loved if ZUN gave us Chang'e portrait at least, this way artists interested in the canon part of Touhou could expand their interpretations of Junko's backstory. I imagine it would be similar to Mokou/Kaguya rivalry.
Sugume is mentioned a lot in these endings, hopefully it means that it won't be the last time we'll see her.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 05, 2015, 01:33:49 AM
Also, seems like
Yukari actually stole the occult ball (unless it disappeared on its own). I wonder if she's gonna use it in some way in the near future?
Well...
in the other translation, it says Yukari disappears without ever touching the occult ball. It doesn't say the occult ball disappears.
So, we have two conflicting translations. :S The Marisa translations on thpatch.net aren't of strange quality like the Sanae ones, so I don't know which out of that one or Clarste's is more trustable. I'd lean towards Clarste's, but, it'd be nice to get confirmation from someone else who can read japanese. The jp ending transcript would be on https://thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/Marisa's_Endings
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on September 05, 2015, 02:54:11 AM
Junko's mythology basis is that her child was killed when Houyi shot down the suns.
How do people come to this conclusion? Yes, Houyi shot down suns. Yes, Houyi killed his (also Junko's) son. But nowhere in the story stated: Houyi shot down sun and resulted in killing his child
Quote
So while Junko's motive is myth, Junko herself is not
But she kind of is. I mean, there was a woman in Xia Dynasty whose name is 純狐, guess what? her husband is called Houyi.
Just look up "Xia Dynasty Houyi" and search for related story, it is likely that ZUN made Junko based on this Xia dynasty woman.
(Note: There are two different Houyi, one in Xia Dynasty, and another one is the one with Chang'e)
Well...
in the other translation, it says Yukari disappears without ever touching the occult ball. It doesn't say the occult ball disappears.
So, we have two conflicting translations.
I think you are looking for this line
結局、パワーストーンには手を付けずに消えていった。
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Polaris on September 05, 2015, 03:15:09 AM
Well...
in the other translation, it says Yukari disappears without ever touching the occult ball. It doesn't say the occult ball disappears.
So, we have two conflicting translations. :S

"Yukari disappears without ever touching the power stone" is the more accurate translation. This fits with the context of the ending: Yukari asks Marisa to show her the power stone -> Marisa assumes that Yukari wants to do something to it -> Yukari ends up leaving without doing anything to it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Starxsword on September 05, 2015, 03:48:07 AM
That doesn't mean
Yukari did nothing to it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Polaris on September 05, 2015, 03:55:45 AM
That doesn't mean
Yukari did nothing to it.

I'm... not sure what you mean. "Yukari disappeared without doing anything to the power stone" is what it says in the ending.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on September 07, 2015, 08:17:19 AM
I'm not sure if anybody has noticed this yet or not but it seems Touhou Patch Center has a American flag next to LoLK now... English patch finished? I really wish that the Touhou Patch Center would get better at announcing their finished patches instead of just having a little flag appear next to the game on the front page.

Can anybody confirm the quality of the patch so far? No way I'm downloading it if it contains Google translate quality translations (I wouldn't have to ask this question if we still had static patches for these games *grumble grumble*).
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 07, 2015, 02:49:42 PM
Can anybody confirm the quality of the patch so far? No way I'm downloading it if it contains Google translate quality translations (I wouldn't have to ask this question if we still had static patches for these games *grumble grumble*).
Some of the endings need to be fixed up, although half of them are good (or at least good enough you can't tell where it isn't, since non-jp readers can't tell where a translation deviated from the original :V). Apart from the endings it was done (with high quality) within about a week of game release, which IMO is worth the tradeoff of not being 100% sure when it's entirely done with good quality.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on September 07, 2015, 03:30:10 PM
I'm not sure if anybody has noticed this yet or not but it seems Touhou Patch Center has a American flag next to LoLK now... English patch finished? I really wish that the Touhou Patch Center would get better at announcing their finished patches instead of just having a little flag appear next to the game on the front page.

Can anybody confirm the quality of the patch so far? No way I'm downloading it if it contains Google translate quality translations (I wouldn't have to ask this question if we still had static patches for these games *grumble grumble*).

Again, the patch is automatically updated whenever progress is made, so you can be sure that you have the most up to date translations. You can check the translations yourself over at thpatch.net (http://thpatch.net) and can even help translate if you want. Perhaps, a couple months from now, a better translation for a certain term will be found. With automatic updating this better translated term will be able to be in the translated game. Also, you were free to download the patch before it was finished due to the aforementioned automatic updating.

Edit: Also, many of the static patches contain numerous translation errors which, due to them being static, cannot be updated to the correct translations.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 08, 2015, 07:53:55 AM
Am I missing something, or is there a big gaping plot hole involving the story of LoLK.

Namely Junko's scheme is to make Moon uninhabitable by introducing life to it via fairies.
But...
Why would that matter?  No lunar character has never shown any ill-effects while on Earth. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on September 08, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
It's uninhabitable as in unacceptable for Lunarians to consider inhabiting. To bring life is to also have deterioration and inevitably death.

Death is a kind of important side-effect, don't you think?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 08, 2015, 12:09:27 PM
The fairies she invades with are extra-dangerous because she's purified them with her power. They've become pure lifeforce (or however you want to say it) and if you get too close, you'll become completely impure immediately. This is why they're too much for the lunarians. It's also why Clownpiece is crazy strong despite being a fairy; supposedly (according to her dialogue) a purified fairy has power on the level of a god.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on September 08, 2015, 01:59:09 PM
Quote
Some of the endings need to be fixed up

Well, I guess I will be waiting a bit longer though but that's okay because I'm prepared to wait for quality... especially when people are translating this for free.

Quote
Also, many of the static patches contain numerous translation errors which, due to them being static, cannot be updated to the correct translations.

Yes, my English static patched version of PoFV has a strange error where some of the character dialogue runs off of the screen a little but I'm not too bothered by it because it's usually only 1 or 2 words and that doesn't really stop me from knowing what they are saying.

Quote
No lunar character has never shown any ill-effects while on Earth.

Now that you mentioned this, I wonder How Eirin, Reisen and Kaguya handle all of the Earth impurity that is around them at Eientei (the growing bamboo of the bamboo forest). Well, Kaguya is immortal so that explains that but Eirin is a lunarian so shouldn't she be affected put Earth Impurity?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 08, 2015, 02:25:47 PM
Quote
Now that you mentioned this, I wonder How Eirin, Reisen and Kaguya handle all of the Earth impurity that is around them at Eientei (the growing bamboo of the bamboo forest). Well, Kaguya is immortal so that explains that but Eirin is a lunarian so shouldn't she be affected put Earth Impurity?
I don't explicitly recall where I read it, but I think it's been heavily implied Eirin took some of the Hourai Elixir as well. Don't quote me on that, I could be wrong. Eirin is fairly mysterious in general, and between her lunarian cheater tier medical genius and Kaguya's manipulation of "eternity", I wouldn't be surprised if she could still be nigh-lunarian-tier lifespan even without the elixir.

Reisen is just plain impure now, though. LoLK dialogue confirms it, but when you're outright living on the earth (not just stopping by for a short visit) it's an inevitability.

Keep in mind it's not as though becoming impure kills them or anything. (Well, it does, but only in the normal "you'll die in like 60 years from now" kind of way) It's only catastrophe-tier from a lunarian point of view; to earthlings it's just normalcy. When you think about it like that, calling them lunatics or saying they "live in lunacy" makes more sense from more than just a "lol moon reference" standpoint.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Suspicious person on September 08, 2015, 03:55:50 PM
Reisen is just plain impure now, though. LoLK dialogue confirms it, but when you're outright living on the earth (not just stopping by for a short visit) it's an inevitability.
To make things simple, Eientei people basically live the same way Earth people do ; picture this :

>Life + death = Impurity
>Life & death = two sides of the same coin
>Life leads to death

*Daddy, how does life work ?*
-Well, you're born, you grow old and you die, oh and you suffer in-between btw
-Lol k

>There's growth involved
>Growth takes time

Meaning !
[Birth]===(kid)===[Growing up]===(adult)===[Growing up]===(old age)===>[Death]

>Growth leads to death

Logically Obviously, growth / passing of time bring people (well, normal ones) closer to their deaths, it has to play a role in the whole impurity thingy, since you usually don't go straight from birth to death (that'd be nasty).

Take Eientei for example : back when it was under Kaguya's spell of eternity, food wouldn't go bad, dust wouldn't gather, the whole building wouldn't need maintenance, Kaguya's Udonge bonzai wouldn't grow... basically, when Eientei was pure, it was unaffected by the passing of time, it didn't "grow old", so to speak. When Kaguya released her spell, Eientei popped into history, it became affected by the passing of time... like every other building out there : it pretty much became "impure". Just saying, but although they are supposedly "impure" (/ growing / feeling the passage of time (?)), it's not like Kaguya's Udonge bonzai magically bloomed all of a sudden, it just continued to grow.

Basically, nasty things happen to you because you're impure, although that shouldn't be that an issue for those with long life spans, though. If you're "impure", you're just living like ordinary Earthling, with everything this implies.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on September 08, 2015, 05:37:10 PM
Eirin in the ghost team Imperishable Night ending says she took the hourai elixir.  I remember back when that was finally realized, several people fluent in Japanese were asked to confirm and everyone agreed there was no mistaking that that was the intent and context of what Eirin said.

(though it's been so long ago that my memory could be off)

So yea, she and Kaguya don't need to worry about death and impurity anyways. That just leaves Reisen but I'm under the impression Reisen accepted that.  Hell, all moon rabbits don't seem to care about impurity or living on earth.  Then again, moon rabbits clearly don't like the Lunarians either which may or may not have something to do with that attitude. Reisen II bursts into a rant about how unjust it is that the moon rabbits have to suffer for something their master did millenia ago.

....honestly, I'm not sure how much Moon Rabbits benefit from purity anyways.  It's stated in SSiB (or one of its sister print works) that there are very few moon rabbits left from the first Genso-Lunar war.  Maybe moon rabbits don't fear impurity and death because those evil slave driving Lunarians get them killed even despite the purity (it's stated in CiLR that you can die despite being pure to things like accidents.  IE all the purity in the world won't save you if you get friggin' stabbed in the heart with a knife, for example).  The Genso Lunar war was "only" 1,000 years ago (or... something like that, right?  I forget), so if I were a moon rabbit, I'd also consider adopting a "Might as well move to earth to get away from those slave-driving Lunarians because they're gonna get me killed within a thousand years anyways." attitude, too.

Maybe I'd even be able to go all Tewi on my lifespan while saying "Screw you, Lunarians!"
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kirin no Sora on September 08, 2015, 06:24:13 PM
And that is something that I think that Tewi may one day capitalize on, because I think that maybe Tewi may convince more moon rabbits to try to come to Gensokyo, but not to invade the place at all, simply live in it with Reisen and the others.

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Camilo113 on September 08, 2015, 10:12:27 PM
Tewi may convince more moon rabbits to try to come to Gensokyo.
When did Tewi convinced any moon rabbit to stay in Gensokyo? Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 08, 2015, 10:55:58 PM
I think he's talking about how Seiran, Ringo, and the other moon rabbits may have stayed in Gensokyo after the events of LoLK. One of the bad endings states they did, but it was also a bad ending, so it's hard to tell. (The stuff in the other bad endings is, this time around, all useful information, because it's just the legacy ending rather than an actual Bad End) Ringo loved Earth though, so it makes sense she would.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Aya Reiko on September 09, 2015, 11:14:38 AM
Don't forget the Watatsuki sisters brief stay in Gensoukyo or pre-immortal Kaguya.  And do the lunar rabbits count or not?  There's a gaping plot hole in LoLK's story you could drive a Mack Truck through.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 09, 2015, 11:56:32 AM
Uhm, no there's not... again, the reason the fairy attack on the Lunar Kingdom is so dangerous is because they were purified by Junko's power, so they can make you entirely impure right away. So, the lunarians can't even come near them. In Marisa's scenario Clownpiece says, "Wouldn't it be awful to become completely impure just by touching us?"

When Reisen runs into all the fairies in stage 5, she says the people of the moon should have nothing to fear from the impurity of mere fairies, before realizing they're more impure than normal. It's not like the lunarians can't be in the vicinity of any impurity at all; it's just that the invasion was on an entirely different level.

Also, less related, but they probably wouldn't really care if some moon rabbits got impure (Apart from not letting them back onto the moon) They seem to be sort of abused, and the moon rabbits themselves (or at least Ringo) seem unconcerned with the notion of becoming impure.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on September 09, 2015, 12:06:07 PM
Possibly relevant: Toyohime states in CiLR that technically, even Lunarians have a little impurity in them and will die some day (though apparently I guess "some day" is after millions of years).  In that case, it's unsurprising that small amounts of impurity can be tolerated. It's not a case of "a small amount of impurity is changing an infinite lifespan to non-infinte" because Lunarian lives were never infinite in the first place.  Just freakishly long.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Suspicious person on September 09, 2015, 01:14:22 PM
Possibly relevant: Toyohime states in CiLR that technically, even Lunarians have a little impurity in them and will die some day (though apparently I guess "some day" is after millions of years).  In that case, it's unsurprising that small amounts of impurity can be tolerated. It's not a case of "a small amount of impurity is changing an infinite lifespan to non-infinte" because Lunarian lives were never infinite in the first place.  Just freakishly long.
Well, of course, they need to grow up otherwise all of the Lunar Capital's residents would be babies or children

Lunarians doesn't seem to die of old age nor grow old to unhealthy level. I wonder if the contents of the box, which suddenly transformed Urashima Tarou into a old man (in CiLR), have anything to do with this  :wat: ? Lunarians gotta grow without dying in one way or another after all...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Abraham Lincoln on September 10, 2015, 02:11:47 PM
I just 1CCed the game (with much difficulty). Now I know why nearly everybody calls Junko "Junk".
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: pokemon123 on September 11, 2015, 04:33:46 AM
I just 1CCed the game (with much difficulty). Now I know why nearly everybody calls Junko "Junk".

hey i came up with that joke first (okay like one person will get this lol if they even still read this thread)

haven't played LOLK in a while though but the patterns are still really fun to me. considering trying out scoring in it.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on September 12, 2015, 03:23:49 PM
Well, of course, they need to grow up otherwise all of the Lunar Capital's residents would be babies or children

Lunarians doesn't seem to die of old age nor grow old to unhealthy level. I wonder if the contents of the box, which suddenly transformed Urashima Tarou into a old man (in CiLR), have anything to do with this  :wat: ? Lunarians gotta grow without dying in one way or another after all...
Well, some lunarians were supposedly originarily humans from the Earth, so they'd probably be already a bit old.
For the "true" lunarians, my guesses are:
-They have someone capable of making people age instantly (i.e Kaguya and her relatives, or some medicine).
-They use a small amount of impurity to make young lunarians grow, then remove/seal it.
-Lunarian genetic makes them grow decently fast, then their growth slows down to the extreme when they reach a certain "apparent age".
-They are born out of thin air like some kind of youkai, already grown up. Or they are just spirits who can take whatever form they want.

In contrast, they probably have an extremely low birth rate.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: PK on September 12, 2015, 03:26:05 PM
double...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: shadowbringer on September 12, 2015, 11:33:21 PM
doesn't Yuyuko's ending in IN
have Eirin avoiding drinking a deadly poison (that Yuyuko gave her, because she knew that Eirin would realize that the plant made to use the tea was poisonous) because she didn't want to die? (and thus become Yuyu's doctor; "why do you need a doctor?")
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Kaizaki on September 13, 2015, 01:54:52 AM
Well, some lunarians were supposedly originarily humans from the Earth, so they'd probably be already a bit old.
For the "true" lunarians, my guesses are:
-They have someone capable of making people age instantly (i.e Kaguya and her relatives, or some medicine).
-They use a small amount of impurity to make young lunarians grow, then remove/seal it.
-Lunarian genetic makes them grow decently fast, then their growth slows down to the extreme when they reach a certain "apparent age".
-They are born out of thin air like some kind of youkai, already grown up. Or they are just spirits who can take whatever form they want.

In contrast, they probably have an extremely low birth rate.
I'd like to add that the Lunar Capital is said to be free of sabi, meaning the Lunarians would have to artificially create the appearance of age, wear and tear (the effects of time). I could be wrong on this, of course.

Or maybe only the faint trace of impurity inherent in Lunarians is needed for babies to grow at a relatively rapid rate. I'm thinking logarithmic growth: the older one is, the smaller/slower the effect of that impurity.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on September 13, 2015, 05:05:26 AM
doesn't Yuyuko's ending in IN
have Eirin avoiding drinking a deadly poison (that Yuyuko gave her, because she knew that Eirin would realize that the plant made to use the tea was poisonous) because she didn't want to die? (and thus become Yuyu's doctor; "why do you need a doctor?")
Yes, but Yuyuko didn't know that she had taken the Hourai Elixir / that she's a god. Alternatively, Yuyuko somehow knew she wouldn't die anyways.

I'd like to add that the Lunar Capital is said to be free of sabi, meaning the Lunarians would have to artificially create the appearance of age, wear and tear (the effects of time). I could be wrong on this, of course.
That is the case, Kaguya explains this to Reimu in CiLR and it's paralleled with a similar explanation for Hakugyokurou somewhere else.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on September 16, 2015, 03:14:20 AM
... Maybe ZUN simply hasn't given it all that much thought? He might be too busy drinking beer and thinking of what to create for his next games than to flesh out all of the nitty gritty details of "every" single Touhou and how they precisely operate. While all the while we nerd-lings debate how Hell fairy's can bring oxygen to the moon and how mystical moon people can age like humans or not.

Lets ask the big question: Does a game series about pretty girls who shoot millions of bullets at each other in complicated and expressive patterns really warrant such debate into the complicated mechanics of it all? Perhaps since ZUN does go into finer details in his print works about how his fictional universe works then maybe debate is warranted but still... it's a shooting game series about cute girls.

...No I'm not trolling. I think the possibility of ZUN not caring that much for his series lore is a possibility to consider. 
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on September 16, 2015, 03:19:51 AM
Perhaps since ZUN does go into finer details in his print works about how his fictional universe works then maybe
son let me tell you about touhou
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on September 16, 2015, 03:21:20 AM
I dunno, the written works show ZUN clearly thinks some of this stuff out an awful lot.

I do think stuff like fairies=oxygen is just as simple as "fairies bring life so the air is breathable because fairies", though, magic is as magic does.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: kevin1127 on September 16, 2015, 04:23:10 AM
What argument/discussion did I miss?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Tiamat on September 16, 2015, 08:45:35 AM
... Maybe ZUN simply hasn't given it all that much thought? He might be too busy drinking beer and thinking of what to create for his next games than to flesh out all of the nitty gritty details of "every" single Touhou and how they precisely operate. While all the while we nerd-lings debate how Hell fairy's can bring oxygen to the moon and how mystical moon people can age like humans or not.

Lets ask the big question: Does a game series about pretty girls who shoot millions of bullets at each other in complicated and expressive patterns really warrant such debate into the complicated mechanics of it all? Perhaps since ZUN does go into finer details in his print works about how his fictional universe works then maybe debate is warranted but still... it's a shooting game series about cute girls.

...No I'm not trolling. I think the possibility of ZUN not caring that much for his series lore is a possibility to consider.

Do you really want to know the amount of thought that ZUN puts into the lore of his games?  THIS is ZUN's explanation for Flower of Phantasmagoria's plot where a flower "festival" happens every 60 years.

Quote from: ZUN's writing, "A Flower Blooming Violet Every 60 Years
"Good guess. The first of these classes is made up by the sun, the moon, and the stars. The sun hopelessly fascinates everyone to it, and has so much pride that its presence makes the moon and stars disappear. The way the moon changes its shape throughout its phases indicates a cooperative, indecisive personality. And the stars show a very uncooperative nature with all their different forms, from the unmoving north star, to the wandering planets, to comets that disappear in the blink of an eye. Together, the sun, the moon, and the stars are known as the three lights, and they indicate general disposition."

"After the three lights come the well known 'four seasons'. These are Spring, which symbolizes birth, Summer, which symbolizes growth, Autumn, which symbolizes maturity and decline, and finally Winter, which symbolizes death. The four seasons symbolize the flow of life. Even you should know that much, Yuyuko."

"Yes and the final class of attributes are material attributes. Fire, shapeless and passionate. Water, returning everything to nothingness. Wood, strong yet gentle. Metal, cold and silent. And finally, the earth, to which all things must eventually return. These five are the third class of attributes."

"So, these three classes of attributes represent personality, life, and material, and you can represent all of nature in terms of combinations of them. And, when you take the number of combinations of the three lights, the four seasons, and the five phases, it comes to sixty."

"Well, that's not the end of the story. Nature maintains its balance by alternating through each sequence separately. In other words, each year we go from sun, to moon, to stars, to sun, to moon, and so on. At the same time, we go from spring, to summer, to fall, to winter... From fire, to water, to wood... Each class changes its attribute. What do you think happens then? You see the same combination once every sixty years."

"This year represents the combination of the sun, spring, and earth. That only happens once every sixty years. And together, they represent the rebirth of all living things."

I dare you or ANYONE to try to "care more about their series' lore" than that.

(or be any nerd-ier.  You say people are "nerdlings" for discussing oxygen and Lunarian aging, but these games are designed by the same guy who wrote that above block of text.  You, me, and everyone here probably has NOTHING compared to ZUN's incredible nerdiness)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ap1001 on September 19, 2015, 12:38:24 AM
There seem to be a lot of confusion about Junko's backstory, so maybe this would help a bit. After some digging around at some Chinese forums, the story basically goes like this.

[Warning: there will be a mix of original myth and zun myth]
The original tale of Junko or Xuanqi, goes something like this. She was originally the daughter of a lord back in ancient china, but one day while outside, the xia dynasty emperor, Houyi, was attracted by her beauty. He then forced her to be his wife and killed her son, Bofeng, these all greatly angered Junko. So she teamed up with HanZhuo, one of Houyi's more ambitious subjects, and planned to kill Houyi and make HanZhuo the emperor. So for years they began secretly teaming up with all of Houyi's subject, until all of the people around them are part of the plan (Which was very easy considering Houyi was a tyrant and a shitty emperor). So one day, after they got Houyi drunk, they killed him and the rest of his family then made HanZhuo emperor. In the end, Junko got her long time revenge by chopping Houyi's dead body into little pieces and forcing his sons to eat his flesh.

As for Chang'e, everyone know the story of the Houyi who shoot down the ten suns and Chang'e was that Houyi's wife. There are some additional bits that is more obscure, the bow that Houyi killed the ten suns with was given to him by DiJun he gave it to him for him to maintain peace of the land, but ended up killing DiJun's sons (the suns). For this Houyi was stripped of his power, but XiWangMu took pity and presented to him the immortal medicine, however the medicine were all eaten by Chang'e and Houyi was left to die on earth. (In some version Chang'e regretted this decision, in others she didn't)

It gets even more weird when you consider the ten suns relationship in all this (Involving XiHe), but that is beside the point. It is a very confusing myth/history, cause it is confusing, China didn't have a very good record of this period of time and any reliable pieces got burned up in the cultural revolution.

Now for ZUN version, which is basically a mix of the two.
Houyi was the hero who shoot the ten suns (killing apollo and 8 other sun gods) and was very high-classed, he had two wifes, Junko and Chang'e, he also killed Bofeng, the child he had with Junko. As for the reasons for him killing Bofeng, no one knows, there are a group of Chinese fans who are digging around ShanHaiJing and coming up with a couple possible explanation (ranging from him choosing Chang'e over Junko to more outlandish explanations). The fact is he did it, and Junko hate him for it, the rest went like the myth, she killed him, in fact she killed him so thoroughly there were nothing left of his soul. But Chang'e went back to the moon before Junko could make her pay for her part of Junko's lost (which is surprisingly, a lot). And she have been pissed off ever since.

The more interesting bits are when you dig around this mythology, I would say this is one of the more interesting myths to dig around cause it makes the entire thing more of a mess.
- First interesting bit, in Houyi's sun shooting myth, according to ShanHaiJing (or some other Chinese myth book), Houyi shoot down the suns under the direction of what could be the Celestial Bureaucracy, the ten suns were sons of the goddess XiHe. Which is hilarious when taken in Touhou term, meaning Apollo was the son of XiHe, not sure if Zun realise it or not, but it makes for a pretty hilarious neta.
- Second interesting bit, depending on which version, Houyi was either worshipped as a hero, or greatly punished for his action. In Touhou version, it boils down to the Celestial Bureaucracy seem to be happy while the other aboriginal myth gods are pissed off at him (such as Hecatia). Seem to be more Central Mythology vs Aboriginal Mythology.
- Chang'e was the wife of DiJun, who is also the husband of XiHe. Dijun was also Houyi's boss in ShanHaiJing. The part where people say that Houyi shooting the suns killed Junko's son, was probably a mistake in mixing XiHe and Junko. Which is understandable cause Chang'e married both of these mens, it also have something to do with the source of XiHe and Junko's myth, but the records gets way too fuzzy at that point.
- Another interesting bit about ZUN's version of Houyi is that he is really really REALLY died, otherwise Junko and Hecatia wouldn't be going after Chang'e.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: NuclearFalcon on September 20, 2015, 12:10:03 AM
Wow, so Houyi is even more dead than Yuyuko...  Granted, she is so lively that even though she is technically dead...  I still can't stop myself from considering her alive.

But that is beside the point.  With what I have seen on backstories...  My eyes watered the first time I found out Junko lost her son.  And with what has happened with Houyi, it seems that she may have a backstory more tragic than Yuyuko.

And the Ten Suns...  well I think I know where one of them might be.  Given that they were going around scorching the Earth with their nuclear fusion before Houyi shot them down, and that they were described as three legged crows, it might explain Utsuho's actions.  She was going to scorch the surface as it was the final will of the Yatagarasu that she consumed and it hijacked her mind for a while.  One of her spell cards even makes reference to the event, Blazing Star "Ten Evil Suns".  I am sure Utsuho can in theory put a smile on Junko's face with one of Houyi's greatest achievements at least being partially undone.  I am sure Hecatia might appreciate her as well...  wait, with what happened it gets even more confusing.  ZUN basically implied that Apollo is a yatagarasu...  in that case there is a one in nine chance that this particular sun has been reignited.  Yeah, now I really wonder how Hecatia will react to Utsuho...

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on September 20, 2015, 03:30:03 PM
IIRC, Houyi becane a sort of hero after he came to earth due to his strength, but became a tyrant after Chang'e drank the elixir and flew away. Is it possible that Houyi didn't marry Junko until after Chang'e drank the elixir?

So Houyi kills the suns, becomes mortal and is thrown to earth, then marries Chang'e. While on earth, he becomes a hero. Some god pities him and gives him the hourai elixir, which Chang'e then drinks and flies away. Now bitter, Houyi becomes a tyrant and forces Junko to marry him. For whatever reason he kills their son. Then Junko and friends team up and kill Houyi.

I'm also having a hard time with the fact that ZUN implies Apollo to be a yatagarasu...
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: UTW on September 20, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Death in Touhou doesn't really mean much. You're as dead as ZUN wants you to be. Houyi is dead, but in Eirin's diagram in Reisen's ending, it also shows Houyi with the Sun. So he could have ascended like he does in some of the Chang'e versions. If that's the case. I wonder if Junko doesn't know or simply can't go after him again to make him double-dead.

I thought Junko was based on Xihe also. It's interesting, but I think it's a more minor coincidence not really worth noting. I just don't think ZUN really had the Xihe and Changxi (it's worth noting that Changxi isn't necessarily Chang'e but has come to be identified with other similarly named characters) dynamic in mind. The influence that really matters is the two Houyis and ZUN drawing from them, taking the confusion between them to its natural conclusion. It's more that Xihe and Changxi would naturally be compared. Plus acknowledging Xihe and Changxi brings Di Jun into play, which makes things even messier.

Now that the endings are translated I don't really think there's all that much confusion anymore. I think many of the major points are known, just not the fine details. That's as far as the myths are concerned. As far as Touhou goes we can only really ascribe what we know in canon, but as always it's fun to speculate. Hopefully ZUN will clear some things up in the upcoming LoLK interview.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Catmusica on October 03, 2015, 03:38:52 PM
Hi Im stuck on Junko's spell card (4th) on pointdevice normal mode with Sanae. Does anyone have any tips or strategies to beating this?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: fsvgm777 on October 05, 2015, 08:35:19 AM
v1.00b is out:

http://kourindou.exblog.jp/23743249/ (http://kourindou.exblog.jp/23743249/)

Changelog (in Japanese):
Quote
・デモプレイを再生するとセーブデータを上書きするバグを修正した
・一部のボスで、特殊条件下ショットが当たらなくなるバグを修正した
・霊夢のボムで背景が赤くなるバグを修正した
・その他軽微なバグを修正した
・また中断プレイ中に解像度を変更した場合、セーブデータを使用できなくなりましたのでご了承ください
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on October 05, 2015, 09:44:46 AM
・fixed bug where demo replay overwrites save data
・fixed bug where some bosses would become unable to be hit under certain conditions
・fixed bug where reimu's bomb turned the background red
・fixed other minor bugs
・also if you had changed the resolution during suspended play, please note that your save data will now be unusable
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: N-Forza on October 05, 2015, 10:20:55 AM
I think that second one might be "fixed bug where some bosses would become unable to be hit under certain conditions" but I'm kinda sleepy.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on October 05, 2015, 11:37:24 AM
Yeah I was unsure about that one as well. I'm not familiar with the bug itself so I don't really know.
EDIT: On further inspection 条件下 does mean "under x condition"; I didn't expect such a literal phrase. Changed.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Serela on October 05, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
Timing out a spellcard whilst bombing seemed to make the boss intangible (and therefore unkillable) afterwards, yes. At the very least, it does if you do it on Hecatia's Lunatic Impact (but I imagine it's related to the fact that it's the most likely case for you to time out a spell that you're bombing and it's not actually a timeout spell)

I guess he probably also fixed pointdevice's infinite slowdown mode bug if you die at the last second on Junko's final card.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Phasm on October 05, 2015, 07:57:24 PM
Isn't one of Hecatia's moon spellcard basically a harder version of the penultime spellcard of the Luna, Sunny and Star?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on October 05, 2015, 08:37:50 PM
Isn't one of Hecatia's moon spellcard basically a harder version of the penultime spellcard of the Luna, Sunny and Star?

Yup. I noticed that too XD. Except now, instead of a single mass aimed at you, you get 3! And instead of the power to freeze bullets, you get Reisen's bomb!
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lightmaster on October 05, 2015, 09:23:49 PM
・fixed bug where reimu's bomb turned the background red
Ooohhh... so that's why I got the red background the two times I was playing with Reimu? Nice to know it was fixed. It seemed odd but creepy that suddenly a red background appeared, it seemed like it was on the path to a bad ending.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Catmusica on October 06, 2015, 10:40:15 PM
Also in the patch have any of the patterns been changed.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ☆ Hinalyte on October 07, 2015, 03:08:55 PM
Seeing my Normal and Extra replays still runned perfectly, I guess none.

Also glad to see the "you can't shoot the boss" glitch has been fixed. Otherwise I'd have every trouble on Lunatic Impact lol.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ZM on October 07, 2015, 10:28:46 PM
https://twitter.com/gobousa1028/status/651878466741125120

Gobou was able to get the first LNN of LoLK. :D
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on October 08, 2015, 12:13:10 AM
Gobou is truly








a lunatic

(thought it would be something else didn't you)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: ふねん1 on October 08, 2015, 03:18:34 AM
I almost had a heart attack watching him dodge the end of Stage 5 before Clownpiece. Crazy stuffs.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on October 09, 2015, 12:05:57 PM
I wonder if the v1.00b patch for this game is going to cause problems with the English patch and be cause for it to be overhauled due to slight changes in coding?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: shockdude on October 09, 2015, 06:30:56 PM
I wonder if the v1.00b patch for this game is going to cause problems with the English patch and be cause for it to be overhauled due to slight changes in coding?
Unlikely imo. Assuming the programmers are on top of things, thcrap should be updated for 1.00b within a week or two.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: DTM on October 10, 2015, 05:47:19 AM
Support for 1.00b was added recently.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: HalfGrand on October 10, 2015, 04:33:42 PM
Neato!  :V

What are the chances do you guys think of there being a v1.00c or even a v1.01? I mean, is there still anything left for there to be fixed that is even the tiniest of nuisances?

I think I heard something about a replay bug that would be pretty serious but maybe that is already fixed? I hope so... Replays are badges of honor to me!

Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Plubio on October 10, 2015, 05:05:43 PM
What are the chances do you guys think of there being a v1.00c or even a v1.01? I mean, is there still anything left for there to be fixed that is even the tiniest of nuisances?

I think I heard something about a replay bug that would be pretty serious but maybe that is already fixed? I hope so... Replays are badges of honor to me!

Judging by Shinreibyou (1.00b and 1.00c released the same day) and Kishinjou (only 1.00b) in my opinion I don't really think there're big chances for another game version for Kanjuden.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Lollipop on October 10, 2015, 05:50:47 PM
stupid question, but where can i get the patch for v1.00b? nvm i found it
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on October 11, 2015, 04:02:38 AM
And the Ten Suns...  well I think I know where one of them might be.  Given that they were going around scorching the Earth with their nuclear fusion before Houyi shot them down, and that they were described as three legged crows, it might explain Utsuho's actions.  She was going to scorch the surface as it was the final will of the Yatagarasu that she consumed and it hijacked her mind for a while.  One of her spell cards even makes reference to the event, Blazing Star "Ten Evil Suns".  I am sure Utsuho can in theory put a smile on Junko's face with one of Houyi's greatest achievements at least being partially undone.  I am sure Hecatia might appreciate her as well...  wait, with what happened it gets even more confusing.  ZUN basically implied that Apollo is a yatagarasu...  in that case there is a one in nine chance that this particular sun has been reignited.  Yeah, now I really wonder how Hecatia will react to Utsuho...
The Yatagarasu has nothing to do with the ten suns, so Utsuho has no role in this.  Similar, but not the same.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: TresserT on October 11, 2015, 05:36:26 AM
The Yagatarasu has nothing to do with the ten suns, so Utsuho has no role in this.  Similar, but not the same.
I don't know what ZUN has to say on the matter, but in the original legend the ten suns were Yatagarasu. They are based off the same legend. And I'd always assumed that the reason the Yatagarasu Utusho ate was dead was because it was one of the ones that Houyi shot down.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Drake on October 11, 2015, 06:34:29 AM
One common version of the legend says the "suns" are Yangwu, the Chinese equivalent of Yatagarasu (陽烏), but they aren't the same myth. The Japanese Yatagarasu (八咫烏) is a Shinto thing, and as far as Touhou goes the three-legged crows are forms of "the" Yatagarasu, which is a god (refer to gods being able to split at will), and Utsuho in "consuming" one became a living shrine for the god. The ten suns, although commonly referring to a sister myth, is different, up to the point that one of Utsuho's cards is Ten Evil Stars, obviously referring to this.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: game2011 on October 11, 2015, 07:43:58 AM
I don't know what ZUN has to say on the matter, but in the original legend the ten suns were Yatagarasu. They are based off the same legend. And I'd always assumed that the reason the Yatagarasu Utusho ate was dead was because it was one of the ones that Houyi shot down.
The ten suns are from Chinese mythology, while the Yatagarasu is from Japanese mythology, so it's more than likely that Utsuho did not "consume" any of the ten.  Her spell card, like Drake said, is just a reference due to them being similar mythologies.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sedrife on October 11, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
The Ten Suns from Chinese Mythology are described as Three Legged Crows (三足烏).  See: http://image.yes24.com/images/chyes/bookshelf/zoo/20080324/01.jpg

So they took the symbolism three-legged crow as a representation of sun, made their own legend unrelated to the Ten Suns, and gave their crow a name: Yatagarasu (八咫烏).

三足烏 = Species = Representation of Sun -> Ten Suns of Chinese Myth
八咫烏 = Name = Representation of Sun -> Recreated by Japanese as a derivative work from imported Chinese myth
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: NuclearFalcon on October 11, 2015, 10:02:07 PM
Confirmation or denial can come only come from ZUN and ZUN alone.  That said, Touhou tends to run fast and loose on such matters as is seen fit and so far this seems to be the best theory for Utsuho's Yatagarasu that my mind will actually process.  This is certainly a very good question to ask the next time ZUN has some sort of Q and A.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Sage Ω (Ultima) on October 12, 2015, 05:06:59 AM
https://twitter.com/gobousa1028/status/651878466741125120

Gobou was able to get the first LNN of LoLK. :D

I wonder if he can dodge this (http://s12.postimg.org/6agu9ymbf/th15_013.png)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: TTBD on October 18, 2015, 12:24:20 AM
>no saves in the new patch

Darn, we're gonna have a bad time. (https://steamcommunity-a.akamaihd.net/economy/emoticon/sans)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: ChronaSE on October 23, 2015, 04:18:53 AM
I almost bought that this was a legit Chang'e made by ZUN.
Why do you do this to me internet?

(http://36.media.tumblr.com/26e485a486c1b20deb2c91b74c772275/tumblr_nwm6242IMk1uu7qzgo1_1280.png)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Marron on October 24, 2015, 12:25:38 PM
wuaaaaaa. It's really well done. It gives you the impression of a mix between Junko, Hecatia and Byakuren though so I didn't think it was made by Zun at all.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: TTBD on October 25, 2015, 10:48:22 AM
a legit Chang'e

THIS GUY.   :getdown:

EDIT: I misread it. I thought it said "I almost bought that this was a legit Change made by ZUN" and because it was Chang'e, that would be the joke. I'm stupid. ;-;
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: HalfGrand on October 25, 2015, 03:57:29 PM
... so, who's the artist?

Quote
It gives you the impression of a mix between Junko, Hecatia and Byakuren

Add Seiga and Kaguya in there for the hair and Yukari for the eyes.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Uruwi on October 25, 2015, 04:24:34 PM
... so, who's the artist?

ZUN AmbientStorm.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: HalfGrand on October 27, 2015, 03:09:38 PM
Quote
AmbientStorm

Ah, very good. It's too bad that I couldn't find anything else by him when looking on Google or Danbooru but oh well, there are possibly hundreds of thousands of Touhou fan artists who are under appreciated.

On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Are things like the music room, ZUN credits and other finer details all translated to good quality yet? I'm having trouble learning if things like the music room are translated when looking at the TPC website.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: DTM on October 27, 2015, 05:10:29 PM
On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Out of curiosity, why do you plan to do away with the auto updating file?  I personally don't see any gains from its deletion.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: shockdude on October 28, 2015, 04:55:11 PM
On another topic, I'm still waiting on the English patch for LoLK to be refined to its best state before I download the Touhou Patch Center auto updating patch. Last time I asked there were still a few things that were a little rough around the edges so I decided to wait a little longer before I got the patch. I plan to do away with the auto updating file when I get the patch so I want to make sure that the current patch version is at its best.

Are things like the music room, ZUN credits and other finer details all translated to good quality yet? I'm having trouble learning if things like the music room are translated when looking at the TPC website.
thpatch.net's LoLK page (https://thpatch.net/wiki/Th15) contains links to everything translatable in the game, including a fully translated music room (https://thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/Music/en). Quick glances indicate that everything has an English translation, at least, so I'd go for it. Imo there's no reason to hold back for a better version later because there will always be a better version later.

Of course it would be nice if thpatch offered a "stable version" of their translation, exchanging super-up-to-dateness with quality assurance, but oh well.

On a side note, thpatch's parody 4kids-style localization (https://thpatch.net/wiki/Th15/Music/en-4kids) is disturbingly funny.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: HalfGrand on October 29, 2015, 12:51:29 AM
Quote
thpatch.net's LoLK page contains links to everything translatable in the game, including a fully translated music room. Quick glances indicate that everything has an English translation, at least, so I'd go for it. Imo there's no reason to hold back for a better version later because there will always be a better version later.

Excellent, If everything is translated then it looks like I can finally go ahead and add LoLK to my Touhou folder. Thanks Shockdude for the heads up... and thank you to all the translators who made it happen!

Quote
Out of curiosity, why do you plan to do away with the auto updating file?  I personally don't see any gains from its deletion.

Nostalgia for the Static patch days ~  :derp: <3

Seriously though, auto-updating patches for games that can be altered openly by anyone at anytime by accessing and editing a simple website are just screaming to be open to abuse by trolls. I would hate to open up one of my Touhou games one day looking to do some 1CC masochism and am greeted by all the text in the game saying "TOUHOU HIJACK LOL" or something similarly annoying. If something like that happens, you then have to wait for someone to fix all of that vandalism for the English text to be restored to its proper state. Why bother with all that when you can just disable the always online  portion of the patch and be confident in knowing that that will never be a problem?

TL;DR: Wiki vandalism is a thing and I must protect myself from that.

Also, disabling the always online portion of the patch means that I can effectively archive a working copy of the English patch and not have to worry with one day finding out that the patch is no longer being supported by Touhou Patch Center for whatever reason. Touhou Patch Center one day might not be around for many number of reasons such as the owners of the domain might not be able to pay for the site maintenance anymore and the website simply ceases to exist and all the text in the patch disappears along with it. That's a worse case scenario but a possibility none the less.

Also, with corporate power grabs such as the Trans Pacific Partnership and other pushes to censor and control the internet, who is to say that video game modders will not be hit with bullshit such as copyright claims that force them to cease and desist their maintenance and development of support mods for games?... even if the owner of the copyright has no means to want to enforce copyright law? ZUN is such a great guy that he would not do that to his fans but if something like the TPP comes into enforcement, enforcers will come after you without the copyright owners consent or knowledge.

Having an offline English patch means that you can keep your copy of the patch and nobody can come after you and take it away from you (as long as they don't know you have a copy of anything they want to confiscate). Trust me, the push by evil people to dominate free speech, censor the internet and take away our freedoms and liberties is one that is ever present and we must defend ourselves from it in case they one day actually succeed in their agenda.

TL;DR: I like to archive my digital data so that nobody can take my stuff away from me from the digital source. When nobody else can get an English patch.... I will have one.

Seriously though, if something like the TPP comes into law, the maintenance of our online Touhou English patches is going to be the least of our problems. Oppose that traitorous bill at all costs!

Quote
Of course it would be nice if thpatch offered a "stable version" of their translation

I fully agree. Something that can be improved with the Touhou Patch Center is communication with its community. If they make announcements such as "the LoLK English patch is complete and has been checked for accuracy" then I would know that its time to download that patch. When they have "Languages with >95% coverage" on the front page... sure, its covered, but has it been covered *well* and Japanese speakers agree that the translation is accurate? I would recommend a voting system for authentication of translation or at least reviews or cross references by different Japanese speakers.

Yes, I am aware of translation arguments such as labeling Sukuna a Kobito, an inchling or a dwarf but when such arguments over translation arise, a simple vote for which label is preferable should be the best cause of action.

Quote
On a side note, thpatch's parody 4kids-style localization is disturbingly funny.

I admire the parody that the 4Kids localization group is doing, but honestly, the less I am reminded of that xenophobic, close minded and western ideology worshiping company, the better. Seriously, 4kids think they have to shield young children from other cultures as if they are some sort of bad influence! Other cultures should be explored and celebrated to young children to help their developing mind grow and nurture tolerance and understanding of other ways of life. Not just have a label of "Murica, Fuck Yeah!" stuck over anything non-American.

Are 4kids still around? I hope 4kids and everything they stand for burn to the ground!

I think that the idea of 4Kids Touhou would probably work better as a doujin manga where the western influence could be explored better and characters such as "Melissa" could be fleshed out more without the confines of having it all centered on the games stories. Much more freedom for parody could come from that but still, its their project.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: shockdude on October 29, 2015, 06:36:52 AM
I admire the parody that the 4Kids localization group is doing, but honestly, the less I am reminded of that xenophobic, close minded and western ideology worshiping company, the better. Seriously, 4kids think they have to shield young children from other cultures as if they are some sort of bad influence! Other cultures should be explored and celebrated to young children to help their developing mind grow and nurture tolerance and understanding of other ways of life. Not just have a label of "Murica, Fuck Yeah!" stuck over anything non-American.

Are 4kids still around? I hope 4kids and everything they stand for burn to the ground!

I think that the idea of 4Kids Touhou would probably work better as a doujin manga where the western influence could be explored better and characters such as "Melissa" could be fleshed out more without the confines of having it all centered on the games stories. Much more freedom for parody could come from that but still, its their project.
(http://abload.de/img/4kidslolka7rvn.png)
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: DTM on October 29, 2015, 06:54:40 AM
Seriously though, auto-updating patches for games that can be altered openly by anyone at anytime by accessing and editing a simple website are just screaming to be open to abuse by trolls. I would hate to open up one of my Touhou games one day looking to do some 1CC masochism and am greeted by all the text in the game saying "TOUHOU HIJACK LOL" or something similarly annoying. If something like that happens, you then have to wait for someone to fix all of that vandalism for the English text to be restored to its proper state. Why bother with all that when you can just disable the always online  portion of the patch and be confident in knowing that that will never be a problem?

Well, considering that in two years, there has been absolutely no instances of malicious vandalism, the prospect of trolls messing with the translations is moot (and you need an account to edit).  If there ever was vandalism though, each change is logged so the messed up translations are fixed almost immediately.  Should it be the case that THPatch is hit by extended attacks of vandalism one day (which I highly doubt), there are solutions to solving that problem. (https://thpatch.net/wiki/Touhou_Patch_Center:Security)

Also, disabling the always online portion of the patch means that I can effectively archive a working copy of the English patch and not have to worry with one day finding out that the patch is no longer being supported by Touhou Patch Center for whatever reason. Touhou Patch Center one day might not be around for many number of reasons such as the owners of the domain might not be able to pay for the site maintenance anymore and the website simply ceases to exist and all the text in the patch disappears along with it. That's a worse case scenario but a possibility none the less.

Actually, thcrap works perfectly offline, even with the automatic updater.  Should the site ever go down, the patch you installed will still work perfectly, with all the translations intact.  It just won't update (as there is nothing to update to).

The main benefit of patches that are automatically updated when you start the game is that you are assured of the most up to date translations.  Sure as of now, we say the translation is accurate, but inevitably, as time passes, there will be a translation debate and the translation will change.  Unfortunately, static patches are virtually guaranteed to not be updated with those changes (which is why the static patch for TH07 still has Charming Dominion instead of Youkai Dominion (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Music#Translation_of_.E5.A6.96.E3.80.85.E8.B7.8B.E6.89.88) or that the static patch for TH13 still has Legends of the Great Gods instead of Omiwa Legend (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Ten_Desires/Music#Title_of_Futo.27s_theme) and who knows how many other out of date translations).

Ultimately, THPatch provides the hosting of patches (which are not limited to translations *shameless self promotion* (https://github.com/DTM9025/DTM/tree/master/alphes)).  While it would be nice to have this voting system authentication, there really isn't enough people interested in that.  Again, all translators are invited and should help contribute, so if there is a problem, they can just fix it (and if there isn't a fix, it is either correct or there isn't enough interest).

Also, if I recall correctly, 4kids went bankrupt.  :D
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: monhan on October 29, 2015, 05:22:03 PM
Since I think the discussion of LoLK seems to be focused here, I'll post some of the things I found. (In case these have been brought up before, then pardon me for not reading previous pages/threads):

http://homepage3.nifty.com/alacarte/gines-sub-tensei.htm (Open in Internet Explorer if it turns into gibberish in Mozilla or Chrome)

I think everyone knows that Houyi have more than one wife and the story changes depending on the legends.
From this site, it listed 2 in particular. One of them was Chang'e during the rule of Emperor Yao, who ordered Houyi to shoot down the 10 suns. Then, either in a different myth or later after the death of Emperor Yao during the Xia era/dynasty(during this time, Houyi is a god), his wive is named Gensai, who also goes by another name, "Junko". (Yes, same kanji as Touhou Junko)

According to the Japanese Wikipedia entry for Gensai (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%84%E5%A6%BB), the "Junko" here is described to be a "fair woman with beautiful black hair". (You may want to look back to that "fanmade Chang'e" art, but we haven't gotten to the more confusing part)

Prior to all that, I read some threads in 2chan where some source mentioned that Junko was Chang'e's childhood name. Now you can go back and look at the "fanmade Chang'e" art again.
Part of it can be read here: http://blog.livedoor.jp/coleblog/archives/52042083.html

It also has some possible theory about "Sanmikoku"(三身国), which was born (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A8%A5%E7%9A%87) from the Goddess of Xiang River, Ehuang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiang_River_goddesses), who is also the daughter of Emperor Yao. The Sanmikoku is governed by three "beings" dubbed "Sanshinjin (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E8%BA%AB%E4%BA%BA)"(三身人). They are described as "having one head, but with three different bodies". This is thought to be where the Hecatia connection comes in.

Alas, I couldn't find more about the Junko being young Chang'e's old name thing, but honestly, what the hell, ZUN? The fact that Junko is now more of a divine spirit with no identity makes it sound strangely viable.
I need another Akyuu data book to wrap my head around these.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: notext on October 29, 2015, 07:03:44 PM
The main benefit of patches that are automatically updated when you start the game is that you are assured of the most up to date translations.  Sure as of now, we say the translation is accurate, but inevitably, as time passes, there will be a translation debate and the translation will change. 

The idea that a translation can be out of date is fundamentally wrong-headed - a more recent translation isn't "more up to date", it is more recent. If I read a translation of Don Quixote that has been written this century it is not necessarily going to be a better translation than one written in the previous century or before. It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think the work that has gone into the autopatcher is extremely valuable, particularly in providing a set of tools to allow non-english translations. You're doing amazing work. But I haven't downloaded it myself because whenever the question of whether the translation has been finished is asked, the question gets blown off as a non-issue. And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: DTM on October 29, 2015, 08:10:07 PM
Well, I can assure you that right now, the English patches hosted on the site is of high quality. It took a longer time to get the endings right for TH15 but that is now a non-issue.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: shockdude on October 29, 2015, 08:42:01 PM
The idea that a translation can be out of date is fundamentally wrong-headed - a more recent translation isn't "more up to date", it is more recent. If I read a translation of Don Quixote that has been written this century it is not necessarily going to be a better translation than one written in the previous century or before. It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think the work that has gone into the autopatcher is extremely valuable, particularly in providing a set of tools to allow non-english translations. You're doing amazing work. But I haven't downloaded it myself because whenever the question of whether the translation has been finished is asked, the question gets blown off as a non-issue. And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.
Thcrap's philosophy is based on that of modern software development; software is never "complete" (there will always be a better version), and thcrap will never be complete either. The ideal was to have an open-source modding engine in which anyone can make whatever translation they wanted, from different languages to variations of the same language (e.g. literal vs localized translation).
The thing is most modern software will attempt a "stable release," with objective milestones and quality assurance. Thcrap only offers what is technically an "unstable development" release, which is excellent for translation development and testing but not ideal for end-users.
IIRC nmlgc did say that basing thcrap on a wiki was a mistake; if he were to do it again he'd use something like github instead, which offers better tools for this sort of project.

Edit: every time thcrap gets brought up it derails the main thread topic lol.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Drake on October 30, 2015, 03:08:25 AM
It could be, and could be written for more modern sensibilities, but people will argue over the quality regardless, and the idea that one supersedes the other is ridiculous. This goes doubly for translations from Japanese, which is a very different language from English and invites a lot of subjective translation. I have no doubt you could put together two fairly different scripts for TH15 and have them both be "correct", at least in the general sense.
While I agree that changing style or having slightly differently worded translations would be a bit silly to put one over others, that picture of the Touhou translation scene is incorrect for the most part. It isn't that important updated translations are just subjectively nicer wordings or something, it's that the old translation was either flat-out wrong, wasn't putting across what it was meant to, or if it was implying something it shouldn't have. There are definitely super-minor grammar nitpicks and battles of literal accuracy vs understandability, but the cases where changing a translation is even needed usually means there was something non-trivial that was wrong, and at that point you can no longer argue that the old version is comparably accurate.

Quote
And if responsibility for the quality of the translation has been abdicated by the people working on the patch then the message that sends me is that the translation was produced without any care for the result. An individual fan translator and editor may make mistakes, but if they're willing to put their names to the work and say it's finished then at least you know they tried.
Except the nature of these translations being collaborative means that even if one person can translate something to the best of their ability, doesn't mean said translation is "done" as though it's a claim of perfection. Those who release static patches aren't going to claim their translation can't be improved, it's just what they could do. If it can be improved at that point, it doesn't matter that the patch is done, it's still in need of correction. Often translators can just not have all necessary information or context, which tends to happen a lot with Touhou. You can't blame any one person for that, it's up to the community as a whole to fix things.

This doesn't even have much to do with thpatch specifically. It's just how Touhou's translations have always evolved throughout its history.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: The ⑨th Zentillion on October 30, 2015, 05:43:12 AM
It's just how Touhou's translations have always evolved throughout its history.

ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: N-Forza on October 30, 2015, 09:45:35 AM
ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.
Thank goodness for that.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Tengukami on October 31, 2015, 11:09:23 PM
ex. the liberties taken in 6-8's translations; after those that certain style began to fade from then on, for the most part.

"Let's get this youkai party started!" is a work of genius.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Critz on November 03, 2015, 08:46:33 PM
Pardon me if I'm asking for that in the wrong place, but would someone happen to have a fully unlocked score.dat file for LoLK?  :V
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: the old guy on November 06, 2015, 07:01:27 AM
"Let's get this youkai party started!" is a work of genius.
Don't forget "Get out of the way bitch!".
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Helepolis on November 06, 2015, 08:06:57 AM
Don't forget "Get out of the way bitch!".
Which is never said, btw.

Edit: Misread the convo due to quoting and post order. My apologies.

Speaking of those TL: I think I still have that English patch applied to my own copy of IN. Though back then I didn't much bother about the actual dialogues or story line. The shame.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: kevin1127 on November 08, 2015, 06:28:04 AM
I was thinking about reviving the dead magazine thread , but then I realized I have a few to talk about, and since this is related to LoLK, might as well just post it here.
Some new information on LoLK interview (same as last time, this is from Chinese website and I suck at translating)
(oh, by the way, there are too many Japanese history/culture related shit which I have no knowledge about, I'm going to ignore those)

1. There is no relationship between the naming of 1st&2nd stage boss and WW2 (apparently Seiran and Ringo are or sound like warships or warplanes or something), it just because ZUN wanted to follow Lunar-Capital-is -Chinese-style-thing and so named them in Chinese style.
2. Change'e is in toad form.  (I love this, good job ZUN)
3. Sagacious spirit(仙霊) can be viewed as a type of divine spirit (someone asked this in misc ques few weeks ago)
4. ZUN thinks Lunar Capital is sick in many aspects, and LoLK shows some degrees of how sick Lunarians are (such as how a bunch of fairies screwed them). In the mean time, in terms of ULiL, outside world is also sick.
5. Junko's purify power is to return objects to their status before they were named, aka god's power. CoLA had talked about this (I thinks it's chapter 14). Before they received a name, objectss are gods. After they are named, they lost the quality of gods. Junko's power is basically "making god". (So I think we may say that Clownpiece temporarily became a god in LoLK, yet her power is still said to be weaker than Sagume).

The rest have nothing to do with LoLK, but I still going to put them here..
6. Genosokyo's belief = everything has gods in it (WaHH30: fungi are gods)
7. Reimu has different personalities in WaHH and FS, because they're written in different perspectives (we kind of knew this already..)
8. Sanae and Sumireko are both using some kinds of outside world perspective. Difference is Sanae has more positive elements and Sumireko has more negative elements.

(BTW, I just realized the original texts of LoLK and ULiL interviews had been uploaded on wiki. Great, I hope google translation can give me something.

EDITED: For number 5, it's chapter 15 "A nameless stone"
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: PK on November 08, 2015, 10:20:02 PM
5. Junko's purify power is to return objects to their status before they were named, aka god's power. CoLA had talked about this (I thinks it's chapter 14). Before they received a name, objectss are gods. After they are named, they lost the quality of gods. Junko's power is basically "making god". (So I think we may say that Clownpiece temporarily became a god in LoLK, yet her power is still said to be weaker than Sagume).
That's interesting. Would this mean "Junko" and "Clownpiece" aren't actual names but rather something like a descriptive thing, like "Dragon God"?

Besides, i google-translated the interview, and for what i could grasp Junko isn't the type to settle in Gensokyo. Add also that youkai are supposedly unable to see her (or maybe it's exactly because of this), i fear she is gonna disappear from canon really quickly.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: kevin1127 on November 25, 2015, 03:25:01 PM
Congratulation to Sagume and Hecatia for being the first LoLK characters to make (cameo) appearance in official manga.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Shizzo on November 25, 2015, 07:01:47 PM
Congratulation to Sagume and Hecatia for being the first LoLK characters to make (cameo) appearance in official manga.

Oh, they did?  In which manga?

Probably in one of those "Girls Reminiscing their latest adventure" kind of flashbacks eh?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: kevin1127 on November 25, 2015, 08:53:10 PM
Oh, they did?  In which manga?
This month's FS.
Quote
Probably in one of those "Girls Reminiscing their latest adventure" kind of flashbacks eh?
Well, from the spoiler, (which, by the way, i feel like the amount of spoiler this time is way more than it used to be)
this whole chapter is reminiscing (or summarizing) all of the stuff happened in this year....
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: DX5536 on February 09, 2016, 08:39:16 PM
So guys, i found some very interesting and i also have question about Junko's profile:

Based on this translation of the Zhou Zhuan (Source) (http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/saxon/servlet/SaxonServlet?source=xwomen/texts/chunqiu.xml&style=xwomen/xsl/dynaxml.xsl&chunk.id=d2.16&toc.depth=1&toc.id=0&doc.lang=bilingual):
The prince Kui, [Shun?s] minister of Music, married her, and she bore to him Bofeng, who in truth had the heart of a pig, insatiably covetous and gluttonous, quarrelsome and perverse without measure, so that men called him ?the great Pig.?

So apparently Zhou Zhuan's Bofeng was "mehhhhhh" and if this Bofeng is the same Bofeng in Touhouverse, it's just ultra weird and kinda disturbing for me...
Also in Junko's origin of touhou.wikia mentions " Yi usurped the previous ruler (Ch?n H?'s former husband) and married Ch?n H?, having a child with her named B? Fēng (伯封) who he later killed." Is this really on purpose like that? If so can I have the source for this :)?
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 A journey to far far places.
Post by: Clarste on February 10, 2016, 01:05:05 AM
The line says 「全ての地上の生き物を殲滅する」, and particularly 地上 here means "surface", not "Earth", which would have been 地球 or something. They were trying to wipe out the area so they could move there, hence the rover killing the wildlife. Just Gensokyo, not the whole planet.

This is from, like, half a year ago, but I'd just like to point out that Lunarians have always called the Earth "地上" in every Touhou text I've seen in Japanese. As far as I know they've never used any other word for it. I think it's supposed to emphasize that they consider themselves heavenly beings.

Also, Reisen mentions in an FS chapter that the Lunarians consider wiping out all of humanity a popular coffee table conversation, so it's not like they'd be totally adverse to it. The phrasing of the line makes it sound like a side effect anyway.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Drake on February 10, 2016, 07:29:01 AM
Yeah I've rethought that after reading more moonies again. It was still a dumb plan from the beginning though if they actually had the potential to wipe out everything.
Title: Re: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released
Post by: Critz on February 10, 2016, 12:41:16 PM
Yup, I've already noticed this after ZUN's interview (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Legacy_of_Lunatic_Kingdom_interview_with_ZUN). The Lunarians don't exactly discriminate between Gensokyo and Outside World:
Quote from: ZUN
Hmm, would the Lunarians continue to sleep, or would they do a full-blown relocation of the capital to Gensokyo...? Would they completely overtake Gensokyo? In that case, there wouldn't be any living things in Gensokyo, and that would affect the outside world, too. That would end up causing the purification of the planet. Since she didn't want to do that, she only threatened to purify Gensokyo
Emphasis mine. Makes you shiver about what kind of destruction Sumireko inadvertently almost brought about, doesn't it?