Author Topic: Byakuren is NOT a good character  (Read 58699 times)

Fightest

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2009, 09:11:11 AM »
Yeah, but Youkai Jesus rolls off the tongue better. Additionally, she was punished for everyone else's sins, which is an aspect commonly associated with Jesus.

Nobu

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2009, 09:35:55 AM »
About Byakuren, fanom is dumb. She is a buddhist monk, not a christian. Annoying western fanbase calling her "Youkai jesus" is just to cry for.

@Sakana: What human attributes are exclusive to one person, and one person only?

People are going to inevitably interpret things through their own culture lens, you can't really fault them for it because everyone does it. Typical westerner sees a messiah figure, they're inevitably going to draw connections to Jesus.

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Bias Bus

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2009, 10:01:42 AM »
People are going to inevitably interpret things through their own culture lens, you can't really fault them for it because everyone does it. Typical westerner sees a messiah figure, they're inevitably going to draw connections to Jesus.
Pretty much this, even if it is kinda stupid considering her character has nothing to do with christians or the like. The moment I read a line that vaugely translated to 'died for their sins' I was like "Welp, let's get ready for the western fandumb to eat at this..."

Anyway, I'll just say (like a few others have) that Byakuren isn't evil, she's just "behind the times". End of story.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2009, 10:02:34 AM »
Yeah, but Youkai Jesus rolls off the tongue better. Additionally, she was punished for everyone else's sins, which is an aspect commonly associated with Jesus.
She was not. She got sealed for "betraying" the humans and aiding youkais. She took the wrong path as buddhist and it is her own fault.

There isn't any aspect in her profile or background story that makes her a sort of jesus.  If you look it like that, you can put her into the Schindler's list role.

Nobu

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2009, 10:13:29 AM »
She was not. She got sealed for "betraying" the humans and aiding youkais. She took the wrong path as buddhist and it is her own fault.

There isn't any aspect in her profile or background story that makes her a sort of jesus.  If you look it like that, you can put her into the Schindler's list role.

It's all about your perceptions. It's *really* easy for the human mind to pick out details to make connections between two things, especially if someone points it out beforehand.

Byakuren was sealed, and came back. She has an association with religion, as well as followers.
She was persecuted for her beliefs. Even after they did that, she harbored no ill will towards the people that persecuted her.

I don't see how it's so difficult to imagine that *someone* out there would say "Hey, that's vaguely like Jesus! Haha." Especially in the west, where Christianity is weaved into pop culture the way it is. ???


Pretty much this, even if it is kinda stupid considering her character has nothing to do with christians or the like. The moment I read a line that vaugely translated to 'died for their sins' I was like "Welp, let's get ready for the western fandumb to eat at this..."

Anyway, I'll just say (like a few others have) that Byakuren isn't evil, she's just "behind the times". End of story.

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Helepolis

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2009, 10:22:50 AM »
It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded. There is a huge misunderstanding:

She didn't got sealed for other people's sins. She got sealed for her own sins/'evil deeds'. It doesn't connects to jesus or jesus-alike as jesus was not evil. Period.

I agree it indeed depends on how you twist and bend the story and through what lens you look. Being sealed for her own or someone elses sins, bla bla etc. Therefor I agree fully with that.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 10:36:55 AM by Helepolis »

Nobu

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2009, 11:00:18 AM »
It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded. There is a huge misunderstanding:

She didn't got sealed for other people's sins. She got sealed for her own sins/'evil deeds'. It doesn't connects to jesus or jesus-alike as jesus was not evil. Period.

I agree it indeed depends on how you twist and bend the story and through what lens you look. Being sealed for her own or someone elses sins, bla bla etc. Therefor I agree fully with that.

"It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded." - This statement hurts me as an fledgling psychologist. x_x The mind is a wonderful thing.


*ahem* Well, the fact of the matter is, both Jesus and Byakuren were persecuted for their beliefs. They died for their own sins, these 'sins' being judged by the ones doing the persecuting. Jesus was judged as evil by the ones doing the persecuting, and the same goes for Byakuren. The statement "Jesus is not evil" is an external view and judgement, the same way as "Byakuren is not evil"

The Youkai were judged as sinful, and she helped the Youkai, so you *can* think of it as "She was sealed for the sins of others." That doesn't change the fact she 'sinned' herself, but if the Youkai weren't inherently sinful then there'd be no problem.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »
Talk of sins and whatnot? Byakuren x Sikieiki doujin pls.

inb4ruro :V

Fightest

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2009, 12:36:13 PM »
Talk of sins and whatnot? Byakuren x Sikieiki doujin pls.

I give this my full support.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2009, 01:50:39 PM »
There are so many good things that could come out of a Byakuren x Shiki crossover. And that's not even talking about the porn. :V

I see Byakuren as one of the only people in the cast that would probably take Shikieiki's judgements to heart, potentially even breaking down as a result.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2009, 06:55:47 PM »
Byakuren x Sikieiki
not_amused.png

I'm probably the only one here who'll treat this with disdain.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2009, 07:02:56 PM »
The main point with suggesting it is that we aren't exactly in a position to judge Byakuren. Let the Yama sort it out.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 08:18:41 PM »
@Sakana: What human attributes are exclusive to one person, and one person only?
Ah, that 'exclusive' was a bad choice of words from my side, sorry. I wanted to know how much of her character overlaps with the characteristics and actions of Jesus. That was answered by you in your later posts, and I acknowledge how the term Youkai Jesus is justified for many people, even though I myself am not completely comfortable with it (though it's better than Youkai Hitler  :V).
And in fact I have used the term myself, so I shouldn't complain too much.
It's just that the things that I, as a non-believer, associate with Jesus are very different from what Byakuren stands for.
As for me, I would probably rather associate her with freedom fighters than with a messiah, though I couldn't give a concrete name. (No, I won't call her Ch? Guevara  :V )

And after that, I will go with Pesco. Just leave the judging to the Yama  :V

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2009, 09:16:12 PM »
I must be one of the few people who subscribe to the "huge misunderstanding" theory. Heck, I don't even find SanaeA's dialogue to be has SIEG HEIL as most people say it is. Maybe I'm just taking it easy because I already read too many blogs about racial issues and I like my Touhous as people who fight each other indiscriminately rather than some issue about power and privilege.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2009, 09:46:30 PM »
Heck, I don't even find SanaeA's dialogue to be has SIEG HEIL as most people say it is.
That's because it's not. Sanae is at worst just naive, because anyone who's actually played Sanae type A (and don't skip the dialogue completely like most do) knows that it's clear she isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to be doing.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2009, 11:22:28 PM »
That's because it's not. Sanae is at worst just naive, because anyone who's actually played Sanae type A (and don't skip the dialogue completely like most do) knows that it's clear she isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to be doing.
However you could probably say that of many real nazis. So the real difference is not that Sanae isn't like a nazi it's that Kanako isn't like Hitler.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2009, 01:22:34 AM »
Byakuren is a saint like Mother Theresa and I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.

I am also frustrated at the fact that I did not save my pro-Byakuren fact-based arguments from the imageboard. :<

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2009, 06:11:36 AM »
However you could probably say that of many real nazis.
Erm, not really.

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Helepolis

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2009, 06:43:37 AM »
I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.
That is so cold Ruro-chuwan ='(


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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2009, 05:13:43 PM »
Erm, not really.
Yes really. The problems with Sanae are most aobvious in her dialogue with Shou when Sanae's supposed reason for hunting Yokai (ie they don't follow god enough) is shown to be not always true but Sanae doesn't care.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2009, 05:29:56 PM »
Yes really. The problems with Sanae are most aobvious in her dialogue with Shou when Sanae's supposed reason for hunting Yokai (ie they don't follow god enough) is shown to be not always true but Sanae doesn't care.

I don't think AlexX's dispute is about Sanae being naive, it's about your statement that 'you could say that about most Nazis'. But that's something completely off topic and much more suited for The Outside World than here.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2009, 06:50:14 PM »
its true gensokyo isn't part of the outside world; where people of good-intentions are not to be trusted.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2009, 07:58:20 PM »
not_amused.png

I'm probably the only one here who'll treat this with disdain.

sup

also,
Byakuren is a saint like Mother Theresa and I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.

Nobu

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2009, 10:57:05 PM »
I should probably clarify, I was thinking more along the line of storylines featuring Byakuren and Shiki, of which could turn out pretty damn awesome. It makes me want to write fanfiction, in fact. Hmm...


HMM....
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2009, 11:48:54 PM »
I'm pretty sure that before the Hakurei Border, youkai were even stronger than they were in modern Gensokyo.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Monologue
From my perspective, the power of today's youkai has not weakened; on the contrary, it's too much for the small area that is Gensokyo.

The border establishes at 0 AD
I think you've mistaken
Quote from:  Touhou Wiki link=http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Gensokyo
0 (~1885 A.D.) - creation of the Great Hakurei Border
with 0 A.D.

regarding fights between youkai and humans, that's why the spellcard rules have been created, to avoid lethal fights, and to allow youkai and humans to keep fighting each other (especially because, with the spellcard rules, the Hakurei Shrine Maiden can be defeated without any serious consequences to Gensokyo), or else their abilities will diminish, making it easier for them to be overpowered by powerful outsiders. (I once mentioned, somewhere else, that MoF did a good job in exemplifying that case, and may have mentioned, yet elsewhere, that Marisa was clever, in SSiB, to get Yorihime to play under these rules, in order to avoid a serious fight, and to give them more chances of trying to win over her)

Analyzing her further:

In MarisaA's scenario, Byakuren mentions she was sealed for using magic, and that she wanted people to call Youkai equals because she could use magic.
She asked if it was "okay" to use magic.

from MarisaA's scenario, Marisa could've been treated the same way as Byakuren, if she were in Byakuren's place, except that Byakuren uses her magic to preserve herself, while Marisa.. blows stuff up.

Marisa: What?
You were sealed away because you used magic?
Byakuren: Yes, that's why I recognized youkai as equals
and called on others to do the same. Will you support me in that?


Byakuren's profile page says that she needed humans to believe in the existance of youkai and her own powers, or else her magic wouldn't work, and she would be susceptible to aging to death. So, she sought to preserve youkai from extinction. Later on, she would become a youkai herself, but there's no actual proof that she would use her magic to try to overpower humans, just speculations, theories, wishful thinkings, nothing more. (the only exception that I can think of, would be that youkai "must" attack humans, as well as humans are supposed to counterattack them, but this problem was addressed during the creation of the spellcard rules already, a process in which both human and youkai have participated and agreed on. Perhaps these rules are one of ZUN's ways of telling us that the characters do Take It Easy during the games, and that the setting is peaceful, other ways being ZUN's description of Alice's boss theme in PCB, and his afterword in PMiSS. Finally, Akyu's monologue section in PMiSS)

(from the afterword section): I've said it so many times now, Gensokyo is idyllic and pastoral, and is a "peace at any price" kind of a world.

And when MarisaA says that humans are still being oppressed, Byakuren denies it saying that humans haven't changed, hinting that things were always the same.

Marisa: Saying youkai and humans are equal
doesn't make it true.
Especially coming from a youkai like you.
Byakuren: I see; I've already given up my humanity. I suppose it's pointless for a non-human like me to appeal for equality.
Marisa: That's right.
Byakuren: Humans haven't changed since my days in the temple.
How superficial, greedy, and unjust you are!
Now, namusan ―― !


Humans aren't "still being opressed", humans are "weaker and need more protection" than youkai, in Marisa's opinion. Marisa doesn't know Byakuren's motivations for trying to preserve youkai, and by extension, herself.
Byakuren replies, saying that humans haven't changed, referring to how they would chase youkai, and how they've treated her before. Byakuren also doesn't know, by the time she meets Marisa, about how the relationship between humans and youkai have developed. (sure, she's not supposed to even know about the spellcard rules, but apparently nearly everyone that appears in the games -- Sanae, Kanako, Utsuho, etc. -- can adapt themselves quickly enough. Also, what if Byakuren for some reason couldn't follow the spellcard system, ever? Either she would be fighting seriously, which is something that goes against the usual mood of the series, or.. she wouldn't be able to attack/defend herself at all. Who would play a shmup where the final boss doesn't offer any danger at all? :D)

In SanaeB's scenario, Byakuren says she wants to create a world where all is equal because Youkai is oppressed, and she attacks Sanae because Sanae disagrees.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Sanae_B%27s_Scenario

Sanae: Of course, I'm a god.
I understand the youkai were all trying to revive you,
but why?
Byakuren: The youkai ... were there perhaps
a tiger, a ghost spirit, and a Nyuudo?
Sanae: Mmm, that's about right.
Byakuren: I see ... so they all
still miss me ...
Even though I haven't been able to do anything for them
for over a thousand years ...
Sanae: Help them?
Are you a friend of the youkai?
Byakuren: A friend ... yes, I suppose I am,
but I'm also a friend to humans.
I want to create a world where humans and youkai live as equals.
I don't know if a god like you could understand,
but I want to see the oppressed youkai regain their status.
Sanae: Equals? Oppressed?
Whichever way you look at it,
humans are the ones being oppressed!
I want to see humans regain their status!
Byakuren: I see, it's too bad a living god couldn't see it my way.
However, I don't distinguish between youkai and gods.
Sanae: The wholesome gods hunt the wicked youkai!
Byakuren: Humans haven't changed since my days in the temple.
How self-righteous; you're an evil drag on us all!
Now, namusan -- !


Sanae picks a fight with her, both come from different viewpoints, as it was with Marisa's case (and both were, to me, convenient excuses so we could have a boss fight)

I'll continue later, no time left for today.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2009, 12:05:05 AM »
*Byakuren and Spellcard rules*
In the UFO "Bad" endings
Spoiler:
Byakuren seals the player character in Makai with her, and neither is able to leave. Byakuren doesn't want to kill them, but whether or not she follows the spellcard rules our girls have a pretty hefty price to pay if they lose to her.

EDIT: Spoiler'd since some might actually care about what the bad endings entail.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2009, 09:42:06 AM »
Comparing anyone to Hitler is lazy. Comparing Byakuren to Hitler is just inaccurate. Unless I missed the part where Hitler talked about how Germans should be equal to and live in peace with Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and Catholics. What a failure of a comparison.

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Helepolis

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2009, 10:04:13 AM »
I am highly dissapointed in the thread title after all this discussion. ZUN stated MarisaB's dialogue is the best canon right? Thread title needs modification imo: 

Byakuren is NOT a good character

into

Byakuren is NOT a good character ZE

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2009, 03:41:24 PM »
In the UFO "Bad" endings
I like to interpret it as
Spoiler:
"The heroine had to run away from the battle, leaving her with no chance to ask Byakuren for an easy trip back", but as I see it, they're not sealed. It's just harder (Read: WAY harder)to get out.
I am highly dissapointed in the thread title after all this discussion. ZUN stated MarisaB's dialogue is the best canon right? Thread title needs modification imo: 

Byakuren is NOT a good character

into

Byakuren is NOT a good character ZE
Goddamnit you and your DA ZE
Also, I kinda chuckled at this thread. Lots of misconception, trying to read too far in small details and the like.