Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Argol228 on June 04, 2010, 10:37:54 AM

Title: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Argol228 on June 04, 2010, 10:37:54 AM: I like Touhou but I have to stick with the fighting games because of the difficulty of the rest. even Megamari and Super Marisa world kick my ass. I can play games like Contra, Megaman, castlevania, all ninja gaidens and I can kick the ass of any SNK boss yet Touhou games just seem to be harder. This is of course excluding the main shoot-em-ups. I avoid the main ones because the only shooters I like are stuff like R-type.

So why is it Touhou games are always made to be extremely hard?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Iryan on June 04, 2010, 10:52:19 AM: Short answer:

Zun makes the games the way he himself likes them, and he likes games to be challenging. :derp:
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 04, 2010, 12:39:33 PM: Another version: Overheads and side scrollers are very different beasts. Especially when the overhead is one hit = death.

I do wonder: How's your Gradius?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Argol228 on June 04, 2010, 12:41:48 PM: But I am talking about Fanmade games. I mean when making a megaman clone it is expected to make it somewhat difficult but Megamari seems to be harder then expected just because it is Touhou, same with Super Marisa world.

As for Diamonds I had completely forgotten about gradius. I haven't played that in years.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 01:09:10 PM: As far at Touhou games go, they are super easy compared to most arcade or console shmups. Really, really easy.

It's just that the people which don't play it consider them as SUPER DIFFICULT GAEMS and every touhou fangame has to be SUPER HARDCORE HARD.

And Gradius kicks my ass :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: orinrin on June 04, 2010, 01:26:07 PM: Touhou games have slower bullets. Most people think Touhou games are harder in comparison because they have more bullets I guess. I'd like those people to play Ikaruga and tell me which one is harder. :V

On another note:
Quote from: Argol228 on June 04, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
As for Diamonds I had completely forgotten about gradius. I haven't played that in years.
He called you Diamonds. :derp:
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 01:47:40 PM: Quote from: SUPREME★ボガス on June 04, 2010, 01:26:07 PM
I'd like those people to play Ikaruga and tell me which one is harder. :V
Ikaruga is more Pacman than Touhou. :V
Try any Raiden game. Or Darius Gaiden. Kicks my ass way too hard.

Yeah, touhou screenshots look intimidating...and that's it :V
Title: Talkin'
Post by: Tengukami on June 04, 2010, 01:48:18 PM: And B-dog shows up right on time to say Touhou is easy. Keep in mind this is the same guy who thinks literally every spellcard in UFO is bullshit. He's just fond of contradicting people, even if it means contradicting himself.

The fact is, 'hard' and 'easy' are subjective concepts based on your experience, your skills, and your game preference. Don't let game elitists tell you otherwise.
Title: Re: Talkin'
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 01:57:53 PM: Quote from: Tengukami on June 04, 2010, 01:48:18 PM
And B-dog shows up right on time to say Touhou is easy. Keep in mind this is the same guy who thinks literally every spellcard in UFO is bullshit. He's just fond of contradicting people, even if it means contradicting himself.

The fact is, 'hard' and 'easy' are subjective concepts based on your experience, your skills, and your game preference. Don't let game elitists tell you otherwise.
I said the difficulty is just overrated. Really, really overrated. I've seen people saying "I don't play touhou because it looks too hard"

It's bullshit to judge difficulty from pictures. Shmup, fps or RPG.

i'd just start some drama again but trolling is banned now so :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Solais on June 04, 2010, 01:59:31 PM: Yeah, like games thought to be super easy, like WoW for an instance is hard for me, while Touhou is easier to me; proven that my own personality is like that I don't really like things bound to a multitude of rules, but instead of things with little to no rules and no fake difficulty. Aka, as Ammy said, Difficulty is subjective.
Title: Re: Talkin'
Post by: Iryan on June 04, 2010, 02:21:49 PM: That may be one of the reasons. Touhou (and shmups in general) rely on different skills then, say, an RTS. The former on quick reactions, the ability to perceive patterns, yadda yadda. The latter on multitasking, memorizing a lot of information and using this info to make the right decisions in a short amount of time.
Obviously you will find that harder which you are worse at.

That said, the majority of WoW is relatively easy. The only difficult things are arena and top-tier rading, which, like RTS, boils down to memorizing information, multitasking and reaction time. It always surprised me how people could have a driver's licence, yet suck so hard at soomething that requires similar skills but on a much lower level. :/

Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 01:57:53 PM
i'd just start some drama again but trolling is banned now so :V
... :V

On topic:
Touhou is, by comparison to the majority of the mainstream gaming industry, a series of difficult games. When fans make games based on touhou, they are not unlikely to make these games difficult as well, either because they feel it needs to be difficult to count as touhou, or because they are into Touhou because they like difficult games in the first place.

On that note, I don't find MegaMare to be that much harder than regular old MegaMan games.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 04, 2010, 02:26:42 PM: The difficulty of any game, regardless of whether it is Touhou or not, is entirely subjective depending on the player. The Touhou games, fan-game or not, MAY or MAY NOT have been made to be difficult. That is of your own perspective, and I don't know enough about the current Touhou games to make a fair judgment. Bullet speed and bullet density are two important factors in determining difficulty in the shmup genre. Touhou generally doesn't employ patterns with mostly fast bullets, though such spellcards DO exist in some number. But the bullet density that comes with making elaborate patterns may look daunting to new players or even long-time players encountering a new game (though this doesn't usually hold true).

Fighting games and its ilk are something I find extremely difficult, though I can finish some RPGs that many people find subjectively hard really easily and be clueless as to why people find it hard.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Sapz on June 04, 2010, 02:33:18 PM: Quote from: Argol228 on June 04, 2010, 10:37:54 AM
I like Touhou but I have to stick with the fighting games because of the difficulty of the rest. even Megamari and Super Marisa world kick my ass. I can play games like Contra, Megaman, castlevania, all ninja gaidens and I can kick the ass of any SNK boss yet Touhou games just seem to be harder. This is of course excluding the main shoot-em-ups. I avoid the main ones because the only shooters I like are stuff like R-type.

So why is it Touhou games are always made to be extremely hard?
It's more a case of the genre itself being difficult rather than Touhou being particularly challenging. One-hit deaths and hundreds of opportunities to die over the course of the half-hour game means it's not really going to be easy for a new player unless the game starts vomiting up tens of lives for you (something with which Touhou is relatively generous; all provide at least nine lives, with things like UFO possibly providing upwards of fourteen or so - most shooters tend to stick around 3-6 lives). :V They're designed so that they take time to clear; the replay value is in the practice it takes to excel, build up the correct skills, and 1cc the games rather than a single game that will take 10-20 hours while remaining easy enough for you to cruise through without any major problems.

Having said that, I've got to agree with Trance; much of Touhou is designed to be intimidating to look at while being relatively simple to actually dodge (see things like Xu Fu's Dimension, Mokou's fourth card). Granted, they're usually still tough, but the bark is definitely worse than the bite.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 02:45:01 PM: Either way, it's a good thing they went that way in Labyrinth :V

And yeah Sapz, it's people which never played shmups getting introduced into a new genre they aren't exactly aware of and calling Touhou way too hard.

Let your parents play any game you have and I can guarrantee they'll suck at it unless they are into that genre.

Today's gamers are spoiled by lifebars and crouching to auto heal from bullets(mw2lol)
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 04, 2010, 02:55:52 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 02:45:01 PM
Today's gamers are spoiled by lifebars and crouching to auto heal from bullets(mw2lol)

I don't think it's a case of people being spoiled by life bars as much as it is new players to the genre not knowing about how shmups work.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 03:05:57 PM: Quote from: Ecaille Ingrid on June 04, 2010, 02:55:52 PM
I don't think it's a case of people being spoiled by life bars as much as it is new players to the genre not knowing about how shmups work.
Well, Guwange has a lifebar :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Esoterica on June 04, 2010, 03:12:04 PM: How far have you actually gotten in Megamari? After you beat one or two bosses and have completely ridiculous attacks from them, the rest of the game pretty much becomes "walk forward and shoot, kill a boss in four hits, repeat".
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Danielu Yoshikoto on June 04, 2010, 03:22:55 PM: Quote from: SUPREME★ボガス on June 04, 2010, 01:26:07 PM
Most people think Touhou games are harder in comparison because they have more bullets I guess.

I think Wikipadia totally makes them think that with showing this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/PCByukari.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/PCByukari.jpg)(I know it?s 641x481, but it?s just 1 pixel more in width and height, please helepolis)
as an "example".

This is known as the hardest pattern in the game... infact this is from Phantasm.
Seriously... this just scares the people away.

[matsuri]I can look past the fact that it's 641x481, but hotlinking is not permitted. Please host the image yourself with imageshack or photobucket or something.[/matsuri]
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: cultr1 on June 04, 2010, 03:24:25 PM: Here's my theory:
The game is designed to be daunting to newcomers and n00bs (such as myself). They see all the bullets and freak out and end up dying a bunch.
It's not hard per se, just different.
Newcomers die a lot, say it's hard, then give up. A sad story, but it's true. :(
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 03:25:04 PM: 95% of the bullets go in totally irrelevent directions lol

yeah, people think the hitboxes are the sprites and pass it as bullshit
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 04, 2010, 04:19:22 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 03:05:57 PM
Well, Guwange has a lifebar :V

Guwange is also really old (at least older than the more well-known CAVE shmups) and is a CAVE shmup more on the obscure side.

It is an exception :V Furthermore I don't see much love for it :S
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 04, 2010, 04:26:58 PM: Quote from: Sapz on June 04, 2010, 02:33:18 PM
It's more a case of the genre itself being difficult rather than Touhou being particularly challenging. One-hit deaths and hundreds of opportunities to die over the course of the half-hour game means it's not really going to be easy for a new player unless the game starts vomiting up tens of lives for you (something with which Touhou is relatively generous; all provide at least nine lives, with things like UFO possibly providing upwards of fourteen or so - most shooters tend to stick around 3-6 lives). :V They're designed so that they take time to clear; the replay value is in the practice it takes to excel, build up the correct skills, and 1cc the games rather than a single game that will take 10-20 hours while remaining easy enough for you to cruise through without any major problems.

Having said that, I've got to agree with Trance; much of Touhou is designed to be intimidating to look at while being relatively simple to actually dodge (see things like Xu Fu's Dimension, Mokou's fourth card). Granted, they're usually still tough, but the bark is definitely worse than the bite.

meanwhile, people who're already into shmups dislike *most* shmups with health bars because that may be an indication that the game wasn't well-designed enough to allow players to dodge all of the attacks in that game (people will often call these games euroshmups (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9665&sid=d86044a029a7058e8a5ca3249ca4ffc9), as a derogatory term), and even though a health bar can be seen as a resource, it may allow unintelligent play from novice players, who may prefer to just plow through certain attacks instead of caring to dodge them. (games such as Guwange, Area 88 and Lord of Thunder count as exceptions, though. Personally, I liked S?ldner-X, as a friend of mine has stated "the health bar isn't the end of the world there" as a reason why he liked the game)

Dying often in shmups was what led me to believe that it was ok to credit-feed, until I got clues ( Touhou good endings :p ) that the game (and most shmups) was made to allow 1ccs (and often, 1lcs. Can't remember any shmups which don't, though.), and reference about how this can be done. Now, I'm able to enjoy the genre much more than before, because I learned to enjoy the gameplay (and scoreplay is an aspect which further help differentiate a shmup from another, and allow people to enjoy a different gameplay)

About fan-games, I think that at least most of them also try to reproduce the "retro" difficulty, while others try to make the genre more challenging (easy example: Super Marisa World; the source series aren't meant to be difficult). Others are just meant to be enjoyable (example: PatchCon).
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Solais on June 04, 2010, 04:33:13 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 03:25:04 PM
95% of the bullets go in totally irrelevent directions Ha ha, old chap!

Yeah, that's the first thing I always say to new players I introduce Touhou to. It looks intimidating in pictures and videos, but in reality, we only dodge a small amount of bullets.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 04:38:26 PM: Quote from: Ecaille Ingrid on June 04, 2010, 04:19:22 PM
Guwange is also really old (at least older than the more well-known CAVE shmups) and is a CAVE shmup more on the obscure side.

It is an exception :V Furthermore I don't see much love for it :S
Well, Guwange has this system which makes you die on the 3rd hit or so, but there is no invincibility, so run into a bullet wall and you are instantly dead.
I don't really like it either...I probably like even Touhou more. :V
Still, it's Guwang.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Sen on June 04, 2010, 05:15:27 PM: It's not so much that Touhou's exceedingly difficult as it is the genre.

Another thing that makes Touhou "easier" than other shmups is the massive amounts of resources you get throughout the games, especially in UFO. Some of the stuff on Lunatic difficulty is just as (or sometimes even harder) than "hardcore" shmups, but offset by the dozens of bombs and 10+ lives per game.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Drake on June 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM: If people aren't immediately turned on by a picture of BoLaD then I would put into question why they might be playing bullet hells in the first place.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 04, 2010, 05:25:47 PM: Quote from: Drake on June 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM
If people aren't immediately turned on by a picture of BoLaD then I would put into question why they might be playing bullet hells in the first place.

I got interested by Dracil's video of an IN Extra playthrough, and partly by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UsgbtidOwY) video :p

dunno how much I was affected by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ), though..
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Matsuri on June 04, 2010, 05:26:17 PM: Yeah, BoLaD was one of the reasons I got into Touhou in the first place! I thought it looked so pretty, and I wanted to see if I could get that far.

After a long time of practicing, I did. :3

Quote from: shadowbringer on June 04, 2010, 05:25:47 PM
dunno how much I was affected by this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ), though..
Quote

#
roial99
10 minutes ago
meh flandre from touhou 6 the embodiment of scarlet devil is wayyyyy harder

:derp:
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Sophilia on June 04, 2010, 05:30:08 PM: MMr is hard if you play it using only Alice, without any weapons, and without energy tanks. Seriously, fuck the boss rush under those conditions. Otherwise, the general advice for any Rockman-esque game applies - don't go rushing in like some kind of berserker, take the time to clear what's in front of you, and use all the resources and especially weapons you are given. If you're used to just bustering through stages and saving weapons for the boss, I suggest you take a look at how overpowered the weapons in this game are and reevaluate that strategy.
If the problem is that you can't *get* any weapons, I suggest killing Sakuya first. She's the second easiest to buster kill, and she gives a much better pair of weapons than Cirno does. One of them is possibly the most broken weapon in the game. I'd argue a certain Yuyuko weapon over it, but I'm quite biased.

As for the main series, I'll be the first to admit I'm not that great at it. I can 1cc normals and clear some extras, but not consistently. However, I don't rage at the ZOMG HARD...I'm too busy yelling at myself for things like overdodging tiny bullets and running into a huge one for a Death With Bombs In Stock. It's a challenge, but nowhere near an unfair one. I probably have about 49 times more deaths due to dumb screw-ups than I do to the actual difficulty of the games. "Hey, I know this pattern, I just have to go between the waves! *dead* That's not between, that's a knife! :V" sort of things. I should probably play the main games more often, that way I could stop being Derpy McPichunalot.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 05:50:04 PM: Quote from: Drake on June 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM
If people aren't immediately turned on by a picture of BoLaD then I would put into question why they might be playing bullet hells in the first place.
I'd be turned on by it if the fun part only didn't last 10 seconds :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Iryan on June 04, 2010, 05:51:01 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 05:50:04 PM
I'd be turned on by it if the fun part only didn't last 10 seconds :V
Shoot till the fun starts. Then time it out.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Drake on June 04, 2010, 05:54:20 PM: Then at 30 seconds it gets even more fun!
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: RainfallYoshi on June 04, 2010, 06:14:09 PM: I remember thinking this way. The first gameplay video of Touhou I saw was of Flandre and I thought to myself "That looks freaking hard. No way I could ever do that."

And now I done did it. :3
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Naut on June 04, 2010, 06:21:20 PM: Whoever said difficulty is subjective ended this thread a while ago, so... Yeah.

Quote from: Drake on June 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM
If people aren't immediately turned on by a picture of BoLaD then I would put into question why they might be playing bullet hells in the first place.

O bby, I loves me dem shmups
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Azure Lazuline on June 04, 2010, 06:23:12 PM: I don't think I ever was scared off by the difficulty. All the really hard videos and screenshots were from the highest difficulty, so I thought to myself "this game has a mode that's really hard" rather than "this game is really hard." And honestly, Easy mode (in most cases) is easy enough for new players to do decent on - one of my friends who has never played a shmup before in his life managed to 1cc IN easy (Final B) on the third try. He also managed to get up to stage 3 on SA lunatic with no continues just through repetition.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Ghaleon on June 04, 2010, 06:46:33 PM: There are many reasons, most, if not all already specified.

1: Shmups, by nature, are generally harder than other games
2: Non-localized Japanese games, by nature, are generally harder than non-Japanese games
3: Doujin games, tend to be harder than non-doujin games. I like to think of it because doujin producers KNOW that only hardcore gamers and niche fans buy their products, and everyone knows hardcore gamers hate how easy most games are in this day and age.

About Touhou being easy compared to every other shmup, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The danmaku dodging in it is NOT much easier IMO, it's just the super generous extend count+bomb count+deathbomb timer, powerup supply, etc makes it easier. I rekon someone who can beat any cave shmup with a few deaths still has a few deaths in a Touhou game (on lunatic) as well. Honestly if you dislike a game simply because it says "game over" 6 deaths later than another game which does after 3, you seriously need help. >=P...Though I still think the stages (non boss portions) themselves are pretty easy for the most part.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 07:42:21 PM: Touhou patterns are...different.
They have so many features which are hard to find out(Brilliant Dragon Bullet lasers are aimed away from you), some pretty much require tricks(Life Spring Infinity) and some require memorization(Hourai Jewel)
It's more tricks and figuring out and less "here's a pattern, dodge this shit"

Now guess which path I went for in my 1cc :V

Touhou can be really hard on Lunatic if you try to play it as a normal shmup, but once you figure out the tricks, it's hardly difficult.

Mainly noticed me vs Enigma - while I ended IN lunatic 0/0 through repetitive bruteforcing, he had only 2 misses through the entire game after putting some effort into it. I don't see myself doing that.

On the other hand, I find Dodonpachi rather easy to 1cc while he finds it bullshit.

Twitch dodging/sightread vs effort and memorization. Both are skills, and each game requires a different one.
You could say that Touhou difficulty is adjusted by the other things you do to play better other than pure dodging.
But seeing how I put zero practice and repetitive effort into shmups, I can't chain DDP for shit :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: theshirn on June 04, 2010, 11:21:38 PM: Also Yukari in Megamari oh what the hell is this
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Krimmydoodle on June 04, 2010, 11:49:06 PM: Yukari is the only boss in MegaMari I can't buster duel. Too much invincibility time, too easy to get gapped to death.

Other than that, I never thought MegaMari was any more difficult than regular Mega Man games, and official Touhou games aren't any more difficult than your average shmup. As said before, it's just something that comes with the genre, and it's really more likely that people just aren't accustomed to the genre than that the genre is actually difficult, and difficulty is indeed subjective anyway.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Barrakketh on June 05, 2010, 01:48:32 AM: Quote from: Krimmy M. Doodle on June 04, 2010, 11:49:06 PM
Yukari is the only boss in MegaMari I can't buster duel. Too much invincibility time, too easy to get gapped to death.
This is basically how I feel about Flying Insect's Nest in SWR's story mode :V
I've probably been doing it wrong.

Quote
Other than that, I never thought MegaMari was any more difficult than regular Mega Man games
That probably depends on which Mega Man games you've played. I never touched them until the X series, and going from those to the original series is a rather rough transition (I missed dashing ;_;).
Unless you meant the first seven NES games by "regular Mega Man games".
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: NEET on June 05, 2010, 01:54:27 AM: Touhou is only harder for me than other shmups because I get distracted by the pretty colours and pattterns XD; and music
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 05, 2010, 01:59:56 AM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 04:38:26 PM
Well, Guwange has this system which makes you die on the 3rd hit or so, but there is no invincibility, so run into a bullet wall and you are instantly dead.
I don't really like it either...I probably like even Touhou more. :V
Still, it's Guwang.

I know the system, I've 1cc'd Guwange before :V The bullet wall is why your shikigami exists :derp:

Quote from: NEET on June 05, 2010, 01:54:27 AM
Touhou is only harder for me than other shmups because I get distracted by the pretty colours and pattterns XD; and music

Somehow... I'm not surprised. Though some people I know use the music to their advantage rather than sit there going "ooooh look at the pretty lights!" and then *PICHUUUN*
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Argol228 on June 05, 2010, 02:44:23 AM: I am not completely new to Shmups. but I guess I do have more experiance with the Nintendo era games like Ninja gaiden and castlevania. The difficulty in super Marisa may be a product of me not expecting it to be hard early on. Mario games tend to get hard on the last world. regardless I am not going to let a few defeats scare me away, I will practice.

Oh and Ghaleon, hardcore gamers to me means the "I only play FPS games with the best graphics" kind of gamers. I like to think of myself as a true gamer. I play all types of games and started in the NES/SNES era of gaming so Graphics is not an issue.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Ghaleon on June 05, 2010, 03:14:45 AM: Quote from: Argol228 on June 05, 2010, 02:44:23 AM
I am not completely new to Shmups. but I guess I do have more experiance with the Nintendo era games like Ninja gaiden and castlevania. The difficulty in super Marisa may be a product of me not expecting it to be hard early on. Mario games tend to get hard on the last world. regardless I am not going to let a few defeats scare me away, I will practice.

Oh and Ghaleon, hardcore gamers to me means the "I only play FPS games with the best graphics" kind of gamers. I like to think of myself as a true gamer. I play all types of games and started in the NES/SNES era of gaming so Graphics is not an issue.

To me a hardcore gamer is simply someone who plays games so much that it can pretty much be labelled a profession, which isn't limited to one or two games. If you're nothing but a counterstrike junkie, I'd say counterstrike junkie, not hardcore gamer >=). That's my definition. so in this thread, when I speak of hardcore gamers, I mean people who have played games for years, and continue to do so, and probably will for years to come, for a significant portion of their free time.

People who only play the most recent and "hip" games are hardly hardcore by any definition IMO. They may put a hardcore amount of hours into a game for awhile, but it rarely lasts, and if it does, they probably end up becomming a "that game" junkie >=)
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: raak on June 05, 2010, 03:56:34 AM: I personally believe that objectively speaking, Touhou based games do tend to be hard. I know it is a matter of opinion, but I feel like there is a certain amount of "difficulty" a game possesses. Otherwise, games like Contra and Ninja Gaiden wouldn't be considered globally hard whereas the opposite applies to Kirby, which is widely considered easy.

When I first saw Touhou, I also thought that I wouldn't be able to 1cc it. When I played it, I thought I would never be good enough to beat Mokou (IN was my first game). And the more I played, the more I came to realize that a 1cc Lunatic was a dream. Right now I had beaten all Window Ex-bosses, Pacifist three of them, done four Lunatics 1cc, and one of the other two I haven't even tried, but I'm confident I can do it with a few practice run. The important word being confident. Do I find Touhou games easy? Yeah. Are they hard? Yes they are. But I had played them so much that I've gotten good at them and even cocky about it (although I'm pretty cocky at any game that isn't sports or FPS multiplayer).

If you ask me if I personally think Touhou is hard, chances are I will tell you yes, but in reality I find it easy, for me. But I will say hard because objectively speaking, it is harder than the average game. If I compare it with I Wanna be the Guy, I would say the latter is harder.

If I compare it with RKS (to pick another indie game from the few I had played) and compare it with MegaMari, I would say RKS is easier. Even tough both are Mega Man clones, and despite RKS's heroines' hitbox being larger, MegaMari is harder for the next reasons, IMO:
- The bullets in MMari follows the quantity and complexity of danmaku. In RKS the bullet are fewer and straightforward. Thus, MMari enemies are generally harder to dodge or at least require more awareness of the surrounding.
- RKS gives you more movement resources... just one, but a really helpful one: sliding. Not only the bullets were more straightforward and less numerous, they were easier to dodge. And if you
(SPOILER)

played as Grolla rather than Tia

(END SPOILER)
your dodging options rose greatly due to being able to use Zero in a game meant for Mega Man (not X). Switching between Marisa and Alice doesn't really give you so much options.

I had never beaten MMari but I had beaten RKS at least 4 times. Both are great games and I personally find MegaMari harder. But I also believe that objectively speaking, it is harder for several reasons. And that's my take on the subject.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 05, 2010, 05:25:48 AM: Quote from: Ghaleon on June 04, 2010, 06:46:33 PM
There are many reasons, most, if not all already specified.

1: Shmups, by nature, are generally harder than other games
2: Non-localized Japanese games, by nature, are generally harder than non-Japanese games
3: Doujin games, tend to be harder than non-doujin games. I like to think of it because doujin producers KNOW that only hardcore gamers and niche fans buy their products, and everyone knows hardcore gamers hate how easy most games are in this day and age.

About Touhou being easy compared to every other shmup, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The danmaku dodging in it is NOT much easier IMO, it's just the super generous extend count+bomb count+deathbomb timer, powerup supply, etc makes it easier. I rekon someone who can beat any cave shmup with a few deaths still has a few deaths in a Touhou game (on lunatic) as well. Honestly if you dislike a game simply because it says "game over" 6 deaths later than another game which does after 3, you seriously need help. >=P...Though I still think the stages (non boss portions) themselves are pretty easy for the most part.

about #3, I think that the doujin shmup developers like the genre, and would try to make something that they like, rather than try to make them more difficult than arcade shmups. ZUN himself has said that there's freedom into the doujin scene, to make games without worrying too much about how well your game will sell, or something like this.

about Touhou being easy compared to every other shmup.. there are easier shmups too :p
The difficulty, while subjective, doesn't reside in Touhou being a bullet-hell. There are complaints from shmup players about this series, not all of them are about Touhou being easy but about things such as the gameplay (unremarkable stages, bosses taking most of the stages' play time, less need to move around the screen rather than dodging some few pixels and watch bullets fly by your side (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTGXGuyA2Q), slow bullets for the most part -- it would be difficult for arcade shmups to have pretty patterns with fast bullets, and pretty patterns don't necessarily mean effective ones or fun ones to dodge through. Personally, I enjoy scoring more on other games.)

>> I rekon someone who can beat any cave shmup with a few deaths still has a few deaths in a Touhou game (on lunatic) as well.

any info about this guy? I think that, when learning a new game ( such as playing Touhou for the first times to learn it ), dying is part of the learning process, not everything in Touhou is reaction-based (and that applies to arcade shmups as well). The notion that dying in Touhou means that the game/series is difficult is.. relative.

>> Honestly if you dislike a game simply because it says "game over" 6 deaths later than another game which does after 3, you seriously need help. >=P

personally I don't enjoy grazing, especially in Touhou :( (however there are few moments where I do, in Shikigami no Shiro 3 and Raiden Fighters Jet, because I'm not required to dodge as many bullets as possible). I don't enjoy MoF much, too, because the faith counter will often drop, and that will frustrate me ( even if I don't die ) because I tried to play MoF by using my instinct, rather than memorization.

I do like HRtP, LLS and PoFV (and PoDD, too), though. May enjoy MS if I learn its scoring system, too.

>> ...Though I still think the stages (non boss portions) themselves are pretty easy for the most part.

I just wish that I could memorize Touhou stages as well as in arcade shmups.. as I believe I've said elsewhere, the enemies aren't diverse enough in Touhou, and the background can't be used as a reference to help you remember what to do in advance. ( also, my execution isn't precise enough )
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Ghaleon on June 05, 2010, 08:35:01 AM: I can respect people preferring other shmups for various reasons. Scoring mechanics, bland stages, etc are good legitimate complaints with Touhou. But the fact is there are a great deal of people who are like "hurr touhou sux cuz cave is harder"... Most of the time those same people die in Touhou a few times as well, so basically, they are saying it sucks cuz they are given 9 lives instead of 4-5.

As for touhou stages being easy, that IS under the assumption that you hav memorized it. I haven't memorized them all myself, but once I do I early have any difficulty with them. Though random spam fest areas like eosd stage 4 books, pcb stage 6 spam, etc still are difficult.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Vibri on June 05, 2010, 09:59:39 AM: Well, Touhou games are easier than Cave games for that exact reason (way more lives and bombs) so I guess for people who think the struggle to clear the game is the funnest part, Touhou games would be less fun. I think that's fair. "It's not hard enough" is a good enough reason to not play a game.

Also I would say the danmaku is easier, given that people routinely capture every spell in the games when they come out. There are attacks in most Cave games where the idea of clearing them without ever dying or bombing is laughable.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Zengeku on June 05, 2010, 10:23:56 AM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 04, 2010, 07:42:21 PM
Mainly noticed me vs Enigma - while I ended IN lunatic 0/0 through repetitive bruteforcing, he had only 2 misses through the entire game after putting some effort into it. I don't see myself doing that.

I pulled out a 3-miss clear of IN the second time through. Pretty much without practicing Kaguya. I died two times to her. Against Kaguya you will want to practice a lot but the rest of the game can be done with dodging skill. (There are some exceptions though)

And you're making it sound as if Touhou is the memo game and DDP is 100% dodging. I have found myself be walled in DDP were others have been doing specific things like targetting certain enemies because they blow up to clear the screen or redirecting in a specific manner. There are memo parts to DDP as well.

Quote from: Krimmy M. Doodle on June 04, 2010, 11:49:06 PM
Other than that, I never thought MegaMari was any more difficult than regular Mega Man games

MegaMari is way harder than standard MegaMan. There is more enemies in MegaMari and the bosses are crazier. I have beaten almost every boss in the Mega Man series buster only and a lot of them without taking damage at all. Can't really say the same for MegaMari. I need to play that game again.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 10:51:49 AM: Quote from: Zengeku the Viking on June 05, 2010, 10:23:56 AM
And you're making it sound as if Touhou is the memo game and DDP is 100% dodging. I have found myself be walled in DDP were others have been doing specific things like targetting certain enemies because they blow up to clear the screen or redirecting in a specific manner. There are memo parts to DDP as well.
I learned some difficult stage parts through trial and error...you memorize the game without realizing it.
Touhou has memorization in suvival, DDP has it in scoring.

Here's the replay of the possibly worst IN Lunatic clear with almost no memoriziation (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=8998)
yes, I deathbombed Wriggle and died against Mystia
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: LHCling on June 05, 2010, 11:09:05 AM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 10:51:49 AM
Touhou has memorization in suvival, DDP has it in scoring.
I'd consider revising that. From what I've seen, heard, and discussed (why not, and experienced), I'd say that memorization for both have for them have the benefits of survival and scoring.

WRT Trial and Error, you learn from your "mistakes" in almost every single game that you play.

Also, typo :V
This is also starting to somewhat derail back down to those (endless) arguments from before.

There is also nothing for me to add to answer the OP that's already been said.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM: yeah, but DDP is more like "oh, so they come from the left, so I have to stream to the right to not get killed the for 6th time" - it comes naturally as you play, while touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning.
Look at Ageless Obsession - you position yourself into completely senseless spots where the bullets barely pass you.

It does work somewhat differently.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: LHCling on June 05, 2010, 11:49:24 AM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
yeah, but DDP is more like "oh, so they come from the left, so I have to stream to the right to not get killed the for 6th time" - it comes naturally as you play
I thought Touhou followed this scheme as well.
Though granted, some people really aren't bright when it comes to these kinds of things and ask at the first instance of trouble rather than try to work it out for themselves
. And this is where things start to get a bit hazy; players such as myself recommend "this 'exact' spot" simply because it's irrefutably one of the most optimal points to be at. In addition, the fact that Touhou gives you (in most cases) a fair margin of time between "waves" of enemies probably helps this. To compare with this, I'm going to use Dangun ~~FEEEE~~ Feveron, where there aren't as many breaks in between and / or they're considerably shorter. The fact that it's a speedkill-for-score game also means that you'll normally be having a continuous stream of enemies on your screen as it's the way to play (for score).

Actually, you could also argue that in any shmup "this 'exact' spot" type of memorization is a good thing; see DDP again for this one; you start off Stage 1-2 in the (top) right-hand side because it's the most optimal point to initiate the chain from.

Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
Look at Ageless Obsession - you position yourself into completely senseless spots where the bullets barely pass you.
You don't have to go about "AO" like this, and it certainly isn't the only way to do it either. Yes, it's one of the most common methods of going about it. Yes, it is probably the easiest way to go about this, this is why a lot of people recommend it; you end up putting in the least amount of effort for a very good reward (surviving for most), therefore it's extremely efficient. And anything that's efficient is by default, a good thing. This ties in with the above somewhat as well.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Erppo on June 05, 2010, 12:39:58 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
Look at Ageless Obsession - you position yourself into completely senseless spots where the bullets barely pass you.

You mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6xUTX7u1Qg#t=3m06s)? :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Zengeku on June 05, 2010, 12:46:11 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
yeah, but DDP is more like "oh, so they come from the left, so I have to stream to the right to not get killed the for 6th time" - it comes naturally as you play, while touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning.
Look at Ageless Obsession - you position yourself into completely senseless spots where the bullets barely pass you.

It does work somewhat differently.

Its not really problematic memorization. I suppose that if you have the skills and reflexes you'll be able to read n' dodge whatever that spell throws at you. The Touhou memorization usually doesn't go much further than remembering spawn points either. Just like in DDP. In Touhou though, you get a few moments sometimes to just refresh your memory about what happens next. In DDP you are faced with relentless waves of enemies that will wall you if you don't move properly. I have hardly ever tried that in Touhou because there is far less enemies in Touhou. (Which may of course make the stages boring for some)

I will argue though that it is only a small part of Touhou attacks that require pixel perfect positioning. Those that do usually get a bomb from me unless they are easy to remember (General Headquarter Crisis, Overly Bright Guest Stars etc.)

Most attacks are just about learning how you are going to dodge it. I don't think DDP is any different there.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 01:33:22 PM: Quote from: Erppo on June 05, 2010, 12:39:58 PM
You mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6xUTX7u1Qg#t=3m06s)? :V
It works only for the first wave which is easy to misdirect anyways.
It's hardly pixel perfect too :V

And yeah, guest stars, general headquarters - both are near impossible for me.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Sen on June 05, 2010, 03:18:52 PM: Quote from: shadowbringer on June 05, 2010, 05:25:48 AM
I just wish that I could memorize Touhou stages as well as in arcade shmups.. as I believe I've said elsewhere, the enemies aren't diverse enough in Touhou, and the background can't be used as a reference to help you remember what to do in advance. ( also, my execution isn't precise enough )

In lieu of indicative backgrounds, most people just use the music to remember when certain parts of the stage are coming up. For example, when Autumnal Waterfall gets to this point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F3_Cj-fMWw#t=0m50s), I know to start streaming from the corner to the center of the stage, to make it easier when Momiji starts attacking.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on June 05, 2010, 03:44:28 PM: I just remember enemy layouts for stages. Maybe some attacks too if necessary. Don't need the background or music to do that.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Zengeku on June 05, 2010, 05:26:20 PM: Quote from: SenSageUn on June 05, 2010, 03:18:52 PM
In lieu of indicative backgrounds, most people just use the music to remember when certain parts of the stage are coming up. For example, when Autumnal Waterfall gets to this point (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F3_Cj-fMWw#t=0m50s), I know to start streaming from the corner to the center of the stage, to make it easier when Momiji starts attacking.

The music certainly aids a bit with the memorization of stage layout but only with long stages or stages you haven't practiced enough. Otherwise I usually remember based on what i just dodged. As in beating one part of a stage i automatically remember whats coming up. That sort of memorization is okay. I don't like the kind like the UFO S3 orb spam where its pretty much a strict route you'll have to follow.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 05, 2010, 06:23:07 PM: I tried searching for videos of this particular replay, but wasn't successful, so I would recommend you people to watch st's EoSD Hard ReimuB replay (http://score.royalflare.net/th06/level6.html#L2) (in which he/she does 453,340,130 points) in RoyalFlare. Just try to imagine yourselves playing through stages 4 and 5, among other things such as point-blank grazing certain patterns and bombing shots ( which I can't do in advance )

edit: about using the bgm for memorizing stages, it may work... unless you have to pause the game :(
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Zengeku on June 05, 2010, 07:56:52 PM: Quote from: shadowbringer on June 05, 2010, 06:23:07 PM
edit: about using the bgm for memorizing stages, it may work... unless you have to pause the game :(

~~Bah. Touhou players don't have a life outside of the game. No need to pause it!~~ only an issue in EoSD.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Alice Fact on June 05, 2010, 08:14:23 PM: Oh this thread is just filled with silly. But then I saw this:

Quote from: Ghaleon on June 04, 2010, 06:46:33 PM
Arcade games and the genres that came from the arcades, by nature, are generally harder than other games.
FIXED. THIS. Everyone needs to read THIS and understand. Then you will know truth.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 08:22:04 PM: but according to ZUN, Hard is arcade difficulty :getdown:
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 08:22:32 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
yeah, but DDP is more like "oh, so they come from the left, so I have to stream to the right to not get killed the for 6th time" - it comes naturally as you play, while touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning.

Oh wow. Seriously? You're going with that? Hahaha, alrighty then.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 08:38:14 PM: Quote from: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 08:22:32 PM
Oh wow. Seriously? You're going with that? Hahaha, alrighty then.
Have you even played DDP? :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 08:47:47 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 08:38:14 PM
Have you even played DDP?

Indeed I have. Don't you remember?

But it doesn't matter. Your statement that "touhou has memorization based on pixel perfect positioning" is ridiculous for two reasons. Number one, micrododging is a fraction of what you have going on in any given Touhou game. Number two, you have what's known as a "hitbox" and "focused movement" in Touhou. This sort of balances the scales when you do have to micrododge, as opposed to playing shmups where you have no hitbox nor focused movement.

I notice you're having a lot of fun bouncing around all over this thread spouting all kinds of hilarious bon mots, but this one just floored me. Seriously, if you're going to make a criticism, make a genuine one based on reality.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 09:02:22 PM: Dodonpachi has an even smaller hitbox and focus as well :V

Also, a shmup without a hitbox would be impossible to lose...if you mean visible hitbox, I don't need that.

I haven't seen anyone perfectly sightread Ageless Obsession. It's a memorize or bomb attack. Not micrododging. Same for Guest Stars. It might not seem on easy to hard, but on lunatic it forces you to bomb or perfectly memorize the attack.
I wish Touhou had more micrododging. Most of it turns out to be simple streaming, memorization or random movement/luck based spam.

And...mind giving me an example of touhou criticism based on reality? :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 09:05:15 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 09:02:22 PM
I wish Touhou had more micrododging. Most of it turns out to be simple streaming, memorization or random movement/luck based spam.

Which is kind of totally different from a lot of what you've been saying in this thread and others. Just sayin'. But yes, having a visible hitbox and focused movement balances the scales when you need to squeeze through tight spaces. There is absolutely no need for "pixel-perfect memorization" in Touhou.

Anyway, don't let me get in the way of your fun. Carry on.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on June 05, 2010, 09:06:02 PM: I'm pretty sure DDP's hitbox is bigger than Touhou's. Or at least the same.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Iryan on June 05, 2010, 09:07:23 PM: The question is:

How do you tell in a given situation if a person who openly achknowledges himself as a troll is actually merely making biased arguments without the intention of trolling?

:/

Anyways, tell me all those points in touhou, preferrably outside of extra stages, where "pixel-perfect positioning memorization" is neccessary to get past them. Not points where it is possible to abuse safespots and pseudo-safespots, I am talking neccessity here.

Guest Stars, for example, you do not need to "memorize" per se. You need to notice how the card works (which is not difficult) and then you'll be able to beat it without memorization as long as your reading skills and movement execution are on the required level. A player of your ability shouldn't have a problem with that...
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 09:08:01 PM: Quote from: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 09:05:15 PM
Which is kind of totally different from a lot of what you've been saying in this thread and others. Just sayin'.

Anyway, don't let me get in the way of your fun. Carry on.
Can you remind me what have I been saying in this thread? :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Tengukami on June 05, 2010, 09:11:00 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 09:08:01 PM
Can you remind me what have I been saying in this thread?

Nope, would rather not play the "dance with B-dog" game today. You're aware enough of how you repeatedly contradict yourself for the sake of stirring up drama and pushing buttons. Let's just leave it at that.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 05, 2010, 09:15:09 PM: I have no idea that I've been doing these things...could you tell me where exactly have I contradicted myself?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Zengeku on June 05, 2010, 09:48:58 PM: Doesn't matter. Just keep it up. its pretty good for a read when it comes from you.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Vibri on June 05, 2010, 10:21:10 PM: isn't this all completely irrelevant to the actual topic, which was "why is touhou hard"
the answer was "it's a shmup, and shmups are hard"
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Mushyrulez on June 06, 2010, 02:48:24 AM: Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: null1024 on June 06, 2010, 02:55:06 AM: Quote from: Mushyrulez on June 06, 2010, 02:48:24 AM
Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P

The simplest answer is because they're [danmaku] shoot-em-ups [unless they aren't, in which the reason is because it's a Touhou fangame, Touhou is supposed to be hard].
This is supposed to be a hard genre. Answered a few posts up to the newish topic, but it's relevant here as well.

also, post at around 10:55pm local time, might be incoherent
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Mushyrulez on June 06, 2010, 03:00:16 AM: ...Er yeah, that's self-referential...

Anyways I think this was specifically /not/ focused on shmups, and so to the other genres (Super Marisa, etc.)...
In which case "Touhou is supposed to be hard" is basically..
asking the question again...

Eh
:/
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Ghaleon on June 06, 2010, 03:05:00 AM: Quote from: Mushyrulez on June 06, 2010, 02:48:24 AM
Argh the original topic was "Why are Touhou fangames harder than most other fangames" >_>

I don't think people have answered that yet :P

actually I did by stating Japanese games, and doujin games tend to be harder on average. That and doujin game developers KNOW their audience is more hardcore than your average gamer.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Vibri on June 06, 2010, 05:05:51 AM: Touhou fangames that aren't shmups are usually parodies of other games and it would be dumb to make a copy of a game that's easier than the original. Mystery solved!
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Krimmydoodle on June 06, 2010, 05:41:43 AM: If there's something the rhythm gaming world taught me, one of the reasons fangames/simulators exist is to create more of a challenge than the original game offered. No matter how hard something is, there's always people who want it harder. It's not something that's unique to any specific game or genre of gaming. For ridiculous Touhou challenges, you have things like the EoSD Ultra hack and Danmakufu scripts. For Mario, you have Kaizo Mario. For rhythm games, you have each game's respective simulator program and communities around creating ridiculous charts for them. It's definitely not unique to Touhou at all.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 06:21:37 AM: Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 06, 2010, 11:00:15 AM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 06:21:37 AM
Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.
Now play Dimahoo

Also, do I get extra points for immediately thinking "this guy likes Treasure" right after seeing your name? :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 04:39:36 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 06, 2010, 11:00:15 AM
Now play Dimahoo

Also, do I get extra points for immediately thinking "this guy likes Treasure" right after seeing your name? :V

You also get two extra extends that are extreme in every way. Do I have to add ''accidentally''?

Touhou at least has deathbomb times...Cave doesn't. That is kinda enfuriating.

Now, let's (not) start a Touhou vs. Cave fight.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 06, 2010, 04:52:14 PM: And Garegga doesn't even give bomb invincibility :V
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on June 06, 2010, 04:54:16 PM: Quote from: Bananamatic on June 06, 2010, 04:52:14 PM
And Garegga doesn't even give bomb invincibility :V

Raiden Fighters series doesn't either. The exception is the Miclus and Fairy ships which are invincible(to bullets during a bomb).
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 05:11:08 PM: Well, I'm not interested in Garegga anyways. I have heard enough of its funny rank system. Radiant Silvergun doesn't even have bombs (but the awesome thunderclap!), is very memorization based and goddamn hard but it's still fun. Even on an emulator.
Now that Treasure has finished with Sin and Punishment 2, I'd like to see them make a bullet hell shmup that puts Cave to shame. Well, not gonna happen. Probably.
Isn't this going a little off topic?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Bananamatic on June 06, 2010, 05:15:35 PM: from what I've seen, Treasure shmups are very different from Cave

it's like trying to put Team Fortress 2 to shame with the new CoD
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 05:28:02 PM: CoD? Don't associate Treasure with that crap, please.
Ikaruga is bullet hell...well, at least looking at the amounts of bullets. And RS has some bullet hellish moments. But yes, they are very different shmups. Treasure makes unique games, so making something Cave-ish would be weird. But at least it would get proper worldwide release.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 07, 2010, 01:41:49 AM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 06:21:37 AM
Why is Super Marisa World my favorite platformer? Because I'm charmed by its design's stupidity. The game even does its best to scare new players away...

Oh, I tried some Cave shmups on MAME. Here's my opinions...
Donpachi: Funny Engrish, otherwise boring
Dodonpachi: Best shmup ever? Only average imo.
Guwange: Crap.
Dangun Feveron: Fun for few stages...then got annoying.
ESP Ra.De.: Best of the five, but nothing outstanding.
Touhou is better.

The best shmup ever is Radiant Silvergun. It's...unique.

Donpachi: haven't played it enough
DDP: if you don't count DOJ, DFK and the Labels (I have played none of these), DDP has a lot of stage design effort for scoreplay. Plus, it has an interesting (though very punishing) score mechanic based on your max chain hits and surplus bombs (for the Max Bombs bonus), and its chaining system. While the boss fights are rather short in comparison with Touhou (or rather, Touhou bosses must show as much patterns as they can), the difficulty while actually playing (if you want to keep your Max Bombs bonus) makes the boss fights feel longer. Though the patterns may not look pretty, they're no less fun to dodge through, and the stages are more fun than in Touhou as well.
Guwange: I want to play it when I have the time, I've played Feveron before and game-long chains supposedly shouldn't drive me away (unless the game in question is MoF, which may have more sandbox than design effort for scoreplay)
Feveron: funny, I've reached the third boss once ( when playing it for a week ) and I really enjoyed the stages and bosses, even when playing for speedkills ( or rather, because of the speed kills, which allow the game to be as intense as you can make it be ). Also, even though the chaining is unforgiving, depending on how late you lose it in the stages, the way the chaining works is a nice mental exercise in foresight of bullets, enemy movement and discomen.
ESP Ra.De: that's because you didn't get the scoring system well enough. When initiating multiplier sessions, if you have reached the maximum capacity for point item boxes, destroying more resilient enemies with your primary shot will yield point item boxes as well, which extend your current multiplier session. If you played with JB-5th and selected Yusuke's stage as the third stage, you can "sometimes" see that after you've destroyed the big tank near the end of the stage, there will be lots of point item boxes falling and your multiplier session becomes longer than you would normally expect. That's due to the maximum capacity, if you can maintain it through that part. (plus, your bomb has effects on your multiplier timer, delaying it, halting it or even extending it)

>> Touhou is better:
already said what I think about it before; try to play Touhou for score, then please tell us how it's better.

Quote from: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 04:39:36 PM
Touhou at least has deathbomb times...Cave doesn't. That is kinda enfuriating.

some Cave games do have counterbomb times (Mushihimesama Arrange, for example). A fun fact.. Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu had auto-bomb (afaik. I can't play it unless I buy a PCB), which extended one's playtime, even though the auto-bomb has shorter effect (invincibility time and damage). Apparently, people waiting in line were bothered by the extended wait time, and DFK Black Label made the Autobomb optional.
(ESP Galuda has autobomb if you're hit while using the slowdown -- which can be used either for survival or for scoring, but if you sacrifice gems for survival, you'll score less -- and don't have an empty bomb gauge)

Also, a lot of shmups don't include counterbomb, either (even Shuusou Gyoku). Like Banana said, Garegga (or RFJ) won't even give invulnerability time. But then Garegga allows you to manage the game, and that's part of what makes it fun (plus, bombing for score is nice. From bombing small ships and sceneries for more points/medals/points, to bombing the flamingoes/Mad Balls/Black Heart mkII's grenade attacks. Seriously, I want to do the latter someday, after raising the rank to make Black Heart mkII angrier. The path will be long and difficult, but I'll enjoy it a lot.)

I mean, not every shmup has to give invulnerability times and counter bombs to be fun.

Quote from: Treasurance on June 06, 2010, 05:11:08 PM
Well, I'm not interested in Garegga anyways. I have heard enough of its funny rank system.

I, on the other hand, like this fun rank system..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sotli-6cheI
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7072222

as you (and everyone else) can see above, the game's beatable even in such high ranks (demonstrated in the second video only; the first video is what you can do if you score well enough: just see Enhasa's comment on it.), as long as you're good enough and can control it well enough.

Quote from: Krimmy M. Doodle on June 06, 2010, 05:41:43 AM
If there's something the rhythm gaming world taught me, one of the reasons fangames/simulators exist is to create more of a challenge than the original game offered.

when an experienced enough company makes a shmup which is well-designed enough, you know that you can 1cc it (and again, even 1lc it. Can't remember an exception.), and that it may have an interesting scoring mechanic (though the game can be fun even without such depth). Games which reward intelligent play (either for survival or score, or both) tend to be more respected than games which are meant to have unintelligent difficulty, by people who value gameplay. That may explain arcade shmups having usually more competition than doujin. Because they're (normally) deeper in gameplay and it takes much more time for someone to finally exhaust that depth ( or give up on the way, at least for a while ) and then get bored.

Kaizo Mario, or variations which are meant to be cheap (while usually demanding inhumanly precise movements and exploiting SMW's gameplay with prohibitively inhuman execution), aren't meant for competition. Sure, you could make a custom GH track which would be impossible to beat, and no one would see the point of trying to win in a game (track) which is meant to be unwinnable by design. However if your custom GH track or doujin shmup is good enough, more people will compete on it. (I can think about Defense of the Ancients and Counter Strike tournaments as examples)

Quote from: Enigma on June 06, 2010, 04:54:16 PM
Raiden Fighters series doesn't either. The exception is the Miclus and Fairy ships which are invincible(to bullets during a bomb).

you don't use bombs for countering projectiles/enemies in RFJ, you use them for creating a no-bullet field if you need it :V (besides scoring)

Sometimes, said bomb can also be used to make sure you have enough time to reveal a miclus ( NER's JudgeSpear slave run (http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2611) has it on Simulation 15 ).. or was it a fairy?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 11:02:30 AM: Well, what if I don't want to play for score, just survival? Cave's early games are just annoying that way (''DAMN I PRESSED THE BOMB BUTTON WHY DIDN'T IT WORK-ragequit''), whilst Touhou is more friendly to survival players (but clipping with 3 bombs still leads in ragequit, and then there's UFO).
But some days you just can't use a bomb, and that's when Autobomb is the savior of the day.
Radiant Silvergun's Arcade mode requires you to level up weapons to even defeat bosses in time, and levels come from score, and scoring requires you to memorize practically everything...but then there's Saturn mode that allows you to save weapon levels.
The only game where I really enjoy scoring in is...Bangai-O Spirits. Yes.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 07, 2010, 12:18:42 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 11:02:30 AM
Well, what if I don't want to play for score, just survival? Cave's early games are just annoying that way (''DAMN I PRESSED THE BOMB BUTTON WHY DIDN'T IT WORK-ragequit''), whilst Touhou is more friendly to survival players (but clipping with 3 bombs still leads in ragequit, and then there's UFO).

[stuff about RSG]

The point is, Treasurance, when you play Touhou for score, it can get infuriating in similar ways to playing CAVE games in general, so basically most of the points you've stated are a plain bias in favour of Touhou. As a former PC-98 score-runner, and having 1cc'd a fair number of CAVE shmups under my belt, I can tell you for certain that they both are infuriating in their own ways. In fact, Touhou is only more friendly to survival players because in comparison to CAVE shooters - which I may remind you are arcade shooters in nature - it vomits out resources for you and has more leeway for screwing up compared to such arcade shooters - designed to eat your money at the arcades (and I have played the ARC cabinets in Japan, I probably spent thousands of yen on them).

shadowbringer brings up (pun unintended) a very good point with regards to ARC shmups vs. doujin shmups. For example, let me use Guwange, a CAVE shmup that is extremely hit or miss with the shmup community, due to its gimmicky features (Shikigami and lifebar) as well as its walking and scrolling mechanics. It may seem crap on surface level, but as I spent time and effort learning the game and ending up ENJOYING what I initially thought was ballsy, I learned that there are only a few doujin shmups that can match this sort of thing. I am not necessarily dismissing the quality of doujin shmups, or doujin games in general at all; however, I do want to stress that it is unfounded to call such games "crap" for reasons that may also be applicable to the same kind of games made in the doujin scene.

So now, let me actually try and link this entire discussion to the topic on hand - Why, exactly, do Touhou and "hard" go hand-in-hand? The thing is, they don't necessarily go hand-in-hand... It just happens. Difficulty is subjective, as was mentioned sometime earlier in the topic. VgameT states that "Touhou is a shmup and shmups are generally hard, therefore Touhou is hard" which is actually a fairly logical line of thinking. Shmups generally ARE hard. I can't think of the last easy shmup I played, except maybe an early Raiden game - I did 1cc Raiden DX when I was 8. Even some of the R-Type games are pretty damn difficult in their own rights. R-Type Delta was one of the first shmups I played seriously as a kid before I ran off to Japan and discovered CAVE and man, that was freaking hard. Shmups are a difficult piece of work to overcome, and require practice, time, and effort. No doubt that Touhou would inadvertedly end up tough as well, at points, in all of the games. I have not certainly played the Windows Touhou games, so I cannot state my proper, well-informed opinion on it but I do know from PC-98 that the current generation of Touhou games can be extremely difficult - I know I had a hard time when I tried Double Spoiler.

But what does this all culminate to? So far, all I have been seeing recently is no direct development to the discussion, but people instead talking CAVE vs. whatever shmup and a guy who seems to worship Treasure. However, I want to stress that this topic is about WHY Touhou (and by extension its fangames) is difficult, not whether CAVE shmups suck or whether your opinion is wrong or right!
Title: Why does Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 12:36:58 PM: I think he can be forgiven for not understanding the actual topic, seeing how often CAVE is being shouted about in this thread as the best thing ever.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 01:15:40 PM: Didn't I mention ''Isn't this going a little off topic?'' at the end of one of my posts?

Bananamatic got this thread a little sidetracked, it seems. (Or did he make me to do it...?)

Okay, I don't want to get involved with arcade shmups anymore. They are too Serious Business. (oh noes, now someone goes to prove me wrong again.)

Okay. Understood. I'll stop screwing with this thread.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 07, 2010, 01:42:40 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 01:15:40 PM
Okay, I don't want to get involved with arcade shmups anymore. They are too Serious Business. (oh noes, now someone goes to prove me wrong again.)

Okay. Understood. I'll stop screwing with this thread.

Eh, people can get quite defensive when you state your opinion without any visible attempt at explaining why you have those thoughts...

But that's for another time. I don't think anyone here wanted to personally affront you or anything. :S
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 07, 2010, 02:18:17 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 11:02:30 AM
Well, what if I don't want to play for score, just survival? Cave's early games are just annoying that way (''DAMN I PRESSED THE BOMB BUTTON WHY DIDN'T IT WORK-ragequit''), whilst Touhou is more friendly to survival players (but clipping with 3 bombs still leads in ragequit, and then there's UFO).
But some days you just can't use a bomb, and that's when Autobomb is the savior of the day.
Radiant Silvergun's Arcade mode requires you to level up weapons to even defeat bosses in time, and levels come from score, and scoring requires you to memorize practically everything...but then there's Saturn mode that allows you to save weapon levels.
The only game where I really enjoy scoring in is...Bangai-O Spirits. Yes.

I think that in most cases, bombing in Cave games is bad for score, making you trade scoring potential for survival potential. So, if you can play for score or look forward to doing so, you have at least as much conditions to do the same or better for survival.

like I said, many other shmups (not limited to those made by Cave) won't give counterbomb times. While Touhou is generous in giving more extends and bombs than most stgs and do give counterbomb times (especially in IN), I'd recommend you to consider getting used with no counterbomb times as an exercise in foresight and control over the game (you may bomb if you lose control over the situation, or if/when you don't want to risk losing a life against a particular stage section or boss attack pattern). Then, when you play Touhou again, you'll see yourself using less bombs, yet more effectively than before, because (among other possible factors) you've become more experienced with difficult situations, may've worked your way around them to conserve bombs and learned to recognize more situations in which to use bombs or not. Personally, I think that it's just a matter of practice to get used with no counterbomb times (though it may take more time for someone to lose his/her refusal to spend bombs, if he/she has a mental restriction against it), and once you get used with this, you may enjoy the games more, and may ask yourself, "how far will I be able to get this time?", "what should I do against that particular stage section or that one boss pattern? Which is better, to spend a bomb there, or do they have easier ways around?"

(last, but not least, you may want to try this (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30659). There are lots of people who notice improvement in MAME's response by using it. This should end my contribution attempt with regards to lack of counterbomb times :p )

I haven't played RSG, so I can't comment on the survival.. however I don't think that the game would force scoreplay entirely, if it has the same philosophy of Ikaruga, regarding survival and scoreplay (where you don't have to chain, eat lots of bullets to survive the game and kill bosses as fast as you can) -- not regarding scoring mechanics :p (I can't comment on Bangai-O Spirits' scoring system, interesting ones are always welcome. I should do some research about it.)

Quote from: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 12:36:58 PM
I think he can be forgiven for not understanding the actual topic, seeing how often CAVE is being shouted about in this thread as the best thing ever.

for my part, I'm happy that I'm able to enjoy non-Cave shmups (even odd pieces such as Thunder Dragon 2, Varth, X-Multiply, AeroStar..). Perhaps Ghaleon mentioned Cave because it's become popular enough to be a possible comparison reference (since lots of people at least know how a Cave shmup looks like) for arcade bullet-hells, and/or difficulty.

As for my Touhou ranting, I'm mainly not fond of its grazing, probably because you (or myself only) can't feel enough rewards for risking yourself each time you graze (I could say the same about Strikers 1945's.. gold... bars... *contained rage from how distracting it is to try to collect them when they're shining completely*), even though these rewards should pay off in the long run, and that the grazing rewards consistency (rather than being a chain, like in Shuusou Gyoku. How ironic that grazing is a bit funnier in SSG, because you can see how much points you earned after a grazing chain ends, and SSG doesn't emphasize graze count alone, but the graze chain gauge is as much important -- plus, you don't graze while having invincibility time, and even in games where this is possible, you have Psyvariar, where point-blank grazing isn't apparently a viable option). There's more to say about the way grazing is implemented in Touhou (I'd say about restrictiveness and how grazing feels like a chore, for how risky it is, and about point-blank grazing -- which requires execution and memorization, and is used during stages and bosses. One or few pixels off, and you don't graze as much or collide with the boss if you're not using invincibility time like against both midboss Sakuyas in EoSD, "forcing" a restart; mismemorizing when/where to perform it, and you miss that opportunity). But I should state that I don't dislike the series, but the mechanics for most of the Touhou shmups. (meanwhile, I don't see point-blank grazing being used in LLS/MS)

about the topic itself, I don't know the answer. Perhaps the fan developers would like the Touhou series to be remembered for its difficulty or characters (Touhou Soccer), or they would like to see (or let others see) how a cross-overed game looks like with bullet-hell (Super Marisa World/MegaMari/Master Burner Climax/TouhouVania. I heard that there's a Touhou Qix somewhere, too..), or they could see an analogy regarding the Touhou characters and thought that it would be fun to share that view? Or they've thought of an interesting gameplay and how well some Touhou characters fit on it? (Scarlet Meister/Vampirish Night/PatchCon/Mystical Chain)

Putting difficulty aside, I think that some Touhou fangames do work towards giving a good visual display (read: danmaku). This is probably significant to ZUN as well, seeming that he likes doing this in his games. And if there's a series which allow people to try (not saying that this is the only one) making difficult games and/or include bullet-hell on it and have cute characters on them, it's Touhou. (ironically, even ZUN is worried that people are focusing too much on doing Touhou fanworks, which may mean less work on other games, less diversity)
Title: Why Touhou= Hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 02:26:57 PM: I'm just lamenting the fact that just like in many other threads, someone asks a Touhou question or makes a Touhou comment, and the thread gets inundated with talk about how CAVE is awesome, Touhou sucks, and the point of the thread is ignored. It's tiresome.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 02:51:53 PM: I should think twice when posting on forums...but anyways. Still not had enough? Ok, let's discuss why Cave is overrated crap (not really) and Treasure is awesome. Let's forget Touhou, it's not like it would be the topic of this thread.

Okay. Back on track. What about the difficulty in Shoot the Bullet/Double Spoiler? Although it ramps up quickly and is relatively high, all of the scenes are separate challenges and reattempts are quick.
I love this kind of structure in games. Many small but intensive challenges that can be done in relatively free order.
Bangai-O Spirits has this kind of structure, too. All 167 are stages available right from start and can be done in any order...Oops, my Treasure fandom is not unclear, right?
Title: Re: Why Touhou= Hard
Post by: Sapz on June 07, 2010, 02:53:00 PM: Quote from: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
I'm just lamenting the fact that just like in many other threads, someone asks a Touhou question or makes a Touhou comment, and the thread gets inundated with talk about how CAVE is awesome, Touhou sucks, and the point of the thread is ignored. It's tiresome.
Aside from a couple of posts, I'm not really seeing things like 'CAVE is awesome, Touhou sucks' - it's a little off topic, but in general good, intelligent points are being made (Trance's and shadowbringer's to name a few), and shmup difficulty and how to cope with it seems like a pretty natural place for the original topic to lead into. Admittedly, all the CAVE versus Touhou arguments are starting to get grating even aside from going off-topic, but it's very difficult not to get defensive and make counterpoints when something you enjoy is labelled as being bad without any coherent reasons or justification given. I myself had a pretty tough time stopping from replying to a lot of posts for fear of derailing things even further. :/
Title: Re: Why Touhou= Hard
Post by: Ghaleon on June 07, 2010, 02:55:58 PM: Quote from: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
I'm just lamenting the fact that just like in many other threads, someone asks a Touhou question or makes a Touhou comment, and the thread gets inundated with talk about how CAVE is awesome, Touhou sucks, and the point of the thread is ignored. It's tiresome.

I can agree to some extent, but I think you're being a bit over-sensative here. I personally enjoy both, with Touhou being better for me due to it's extracuricular goodies like the fangames and music. But only 1 or 2 people really showed favor to cave, and in shadowbrimgers case I wouldn't even call it favor. As good as touhou is it's not perfect, and he merely mentions that there is more to touhou vs cave than extend count and stage quality. It truly is pretty narrow minded to completely ignore scoring mechanics, so I'm glad he pointed it out.

And the topic wasn't ignored... Arghgghghargh!!! =(
Title: Why Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 03:08:48 PM: I'm not 'sensitive' to people liking Cave. I find it disruptive when Touhou topics get hijacked into a pissing contest between the two, and the OP - if it isn't ignored - is responded to as an afterthought.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 03:26:47 PM: Okay. Now that everything's clear, could someone lock this thread? I think the question of this thread has been answered well enough...well, what do I know.
Or if it's not, start a new thread and somehow block me and Bananamatic from posting in it.

What about a new rule: mentioning ''Cave'' results in instant ban.

Somebody tell me to STFUGTFO please....
Title: Why Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 03:40:59 PM: Whoah, I'm not sayin' all that, Treas. Let's not freak out. I'm just asking for a little more, uh, focus in Touhou threads.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: trancehime on June 07, 2010, 03:40:59 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 03:26:47 PM
What about a new rule: mentioning ''Cave'' results in instant ban.

Somebody tell me to STFUGTFO please....

That just sounds petty and you're just trying to push some buttons in making such a bold statement D=

I mean, I don't think anyone here was intentionally TRYING to start a CAVE thing or anything, it just sort of happened. People here are very passionate about what they like (to the extent that they begin to fellate the games or whatever) and it can result in unnecessary banter.

Quote from: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 03:08:48 PM
I'm not 'sensitive' to people liking Cave. I find it disruptive when Touhou topics get hijacked into a pissing contest between the two, and the OP - if it isn't ignored - is responded to as an afterthought.

It IS disruptive when it actually happens, yes. But some of us see what transpired here differently. YES, it is true that it caused a topic derail. YES, it is true that it is out of place. It is NOT true that a "pissing contest" was trying to be swept up. And an afterthought? I have been trying in most of my posts to address the topic onhand, with your so-called accusation of "pissing contest" as my afterthought - only mentioning it first because Treasurance's presentation of his ideas was highly grating

EDIT: Hmm, you know, I'm just really tired and this is all just a little eh for my tastes and I'm taking things a little too personal. I personally don't see what I did as a way of fuelling bad stuff, but. Apparently it is so yeah. :S?
Title: Why Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 03:45:04 PM: I didn't lay the blame on any one person or fanbase. It takes two to argue. Just asking that we try and avoid these tiresome bickerings.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 03:57:46 PM: And now it has come to this point. Yeah, I screwed up and everything I do or say is wrong, this too. It is true that I didn't explain my opinions almost at all. But isn't it too late now?

But this is the internet. There Is Always Someone More Clever Than You And You'll Totally Get To Know That. I should have stopped this already, but I couldn't resist to fail.

Now this is getting sidetracked even more. And I bet Bananamatic is watching this and laughing.

Derp. Using this move left me unable to do anything for two turns.
EDIT: And looks like I used entirely wrong move.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Alice★f on June 07, 2010, 04:00:40 PM: SERIOUSLY THIS THING NEEDS TO GO BACK ON TRACK

Touhou and Hard go hand in hand because that is the shmup genre. Also, the holy shit factor and the fact that Zun is *usually* drunk when making these games.

Also, for any future arguments: Memorization = Skill.
Quote from: Treasurance link=topic=6267.msg355776#msg355776 date=1275926266
And I bet Bananamatic is watching this and laughing.

I know I am. loling right now.
Seriously, though. Quit beating yourself up over this kind of thing.
Title: Why Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 04:06:18 PM: Yeah, no one committed a war crime here. It's all good.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds Scarlet Meister challenging. I mean come on.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 04:10:51 PM: I already said it, lock this thread and start a new one. I want to forget the crap I've been saying. Haha! Go on, Bananamatic! You're the master of manipulating people (me) without even being aware of it!
Title: Why Touhou = hard
Post by: Tengukami on June 07, 2010, 04:32:11 PM: If you want to forget it, just stop posting and don't read the thread maybe? Kinda hard for others to move on if you keep talking about your embarrasment.
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 04:44:22 PM: Okay. This...should be the last one. But you're still going remember me for this fiasco. Better not to think anymore 'bout it.

Last words:
how the hell is double spoiler supposed to be hard
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: Alice★f on June 07, 2010, 04:47:23 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 04:44:22 PM
Okay. This...should be the last one. But you're still going remember me for this fiasco. Better not to think anymore 'bout it.

Last words:
how the hell is double spoiler supposed to be hard
First: Nobody cares. It's the internet. Similar to how in High Schools, nobody cares who is prom queen after like a day or two.

Second: What?
Title: Re: Why is it Touhou and Hard go hand in hand?
Post by: shadowbringer on June 07, 2010, 05:26:39 PM: Quote from: Treasurance on June 07, 2010, 04:44:22 PM
Last words:
how the hell is double spoiler supposed to be hard

at least for scoring, you're going to retry a lot. Not as much for survival, though..

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=8039

(the above link is what I'm usually using when mentioning the last time I tried playing DS for score. I think I heard about this particular scene giving 2.5~3 million points, I wanted to see for myself, thought that I could try to do something better, and never did it. Getting all the explosions seem to give me a better score -- unless someone else can find a way to score better without doing so --, but it's really difficult to do. Not like I won't touch this game again, ever. Even though there are more scenes which are made much more difficult if you try to score.)

That said, congratulations to those who do enjoy the Touhou shmups and have put so much effort to achieve such high scores.

Quote from: GreenVirus on June 07, 2010, 04:00:40 PM
Also, for any future arguments: Memorization = Skill.

Memorization can make a game inflexible if it's overdone, that, combined with mistakes (restarts, either by memorization mistakes or wrong execution or something else going wrong in your run like you dying unexpectedly early in the game), help make a game look boring, as you're being told "you must hug this larger fairy, wait until she has fired her spiraling streams which you can graze, and hope that you're not hit on the way by the other fairies or the falling rocks" instead of being told something like "you must maintain your chaining gauge; there's these fairies and spirits which you can use to chain bullets as well. They don't come in a definite order, and there may be a boss/Lily White/Lily Black on your way"

(Memorization can make even Phantasm Romance 2.5 Plus a bit boring if you try to set up multiples of 250 graze for cancelling bullets -- for example, both of Aya's nonspells)