Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Bunbunmaru News~ => Front Page Headlines => Topic started by: Keine Kamishirasawa on February 04, 2015, 09:23:53 PM

Title: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Keine Kamishirasawa on February 04, 2015, 09:23:53 PM
Comment thread for On a certain fangame project by a certain developer (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/2015/02/04/on-a-certain-fangame-project-by-a-certain-developer)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on February 04, 2015, 10:21:31 PM
I'm glad I stopped caring about this project long ago. FromSoySauce was being too much of a... err... sorry to put it blunt, but he was pretty much being a douche. He was being extremely ignorant and not willing to cooperate with anyone. I could see this almost from the beginning.

I must say, however, that I never expected him to go this far, but unfortunately he did. I feel sorry for his image right now, and for anyone who was involved in this quagmire.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 04, 2015, 10:24:11 PM
Some people just refuse to listen, and instead want the world to revolve around them. I have to applaud Helepolis and his monstrous patience in dealing with Saijee and his cohorts/sockpuppets, he really did try to do all he could to resolve the situation peacefully without it coming to this.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suikama on February 04, 2015, 10:25:31 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/QM9xDmL.png)

Quote
We are also at this time forbidding any future kickstarter or crowdfunding threads.
Huh, well this is a bit awkward. Does this rule apply to just Touhou related works, or to all crowdfunding endeavors?
I've actually been working on starting a kickstarter for my own game and was going to share it in the coming months, but if that's not allowed anymore then that kind of sucks. :<
I mean it's not like I'm really screwed over by this decision, it's just I've always considered this place as I guess like my internet home, so I feel more comfortable sharing my crappy in progress stuff here for initial feedback than other places.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 04, 2015, 10:27:29 PM
All kickstarters, sorry :[. We've always been kind of leery of them in the first place but this made it very clear that the benefits clearly do not outweigh any of the messes that might happen. This is no bash against you or saying you're untrustworthy, but in general kickstarters have been a plague on indie gaming, and there's been lots of people promising huge things with nothing concrete and then walking off with all the money.

You can still talk about your project and ask for feedback/etc, but no panhandling for money is what we ask.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 04, 2015, 10:41:20 PM
I feel like an idiot for getting so involved that I appeared in the video shocked me and made me pretty angry. I really wanted to help the project but now I feel like my passion only backfired on me. I'm really sorry to anyone if my involvement hurt you, I really wanted to try to and do good.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on February 04, 2015, 10:51:58 PM
I feel like an idiot for getting so involved that I appeared in the video shocked me and made me pretty angry. I really wanted to help the project but now I feel like my passion only backfired on me. I'm really sorry to anyone if my involvement hurt you, I really wanted to try to and do good.

I trust you had good intentions, Colticide. You seemed to be pretty chill from what I could see when I was still discussing about stuff on that topic.

Now, I can't speak for how the others feel about you, but hopefully all of this won't impact negatively on your image.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 04, 2015, 10:59:03 PM
I feel like an idiot for getting so involved that I appeared in the video shocked me and made me pretty angry. I really wanted to help the project but now I feel like my passion only backfired on me. I'm really sorry to anyone if my involvement hurt you, I really wanted to try to and do good.
Everyone did from what I can tell. I've only been watching from the sidelines but the feeling I got from everyone involved is that everyone wanted to help him do the right thing. There was legit excitement for the project and he squandered it by going on a tirade about copyright and how ZUN can't tell him what to do with Touhou and other bizarre conspiracy theories (to the point of even trying to edit Wikipedia to fabricate information to support his claims). I cut the cord when he decided to start burning bridges by digging up personal info on people involved in some vain attempt to prove a conspiracy that his game was being crushed because Touhou was gonna go commercial or some nonsense.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: FLASH on February 04, 2015, 10:59:24 PM
well this is all just sad; some people are just like that tough, all you can do with them by the end is let them obstinately steer their ship into the reefs while you get to the lifeboats  :(

it's whatever though, i'm sure the western fandom in general know they are a minority; and for the people from this forum that were involved, everyone here know you all are more trustworthy than him, especially in regards to his behaviour.  ;)


what i'm really curious about is, have there been any official comments from Team Shanghai Alice on this (other than forcing the closure of the Crowdfunding)?
how commonly does this happen that ZUN actually does Crackdown on a fan project like this for not following his guidelines? not often i guess cause it's one of the first tme i hear of something like this.

Because one thing that do worry me is that TSA, and the Japanese side of the fandom are probably not aware of all this internal conflict and intricacies within the project, and may get bad ideas about MOTC, or the western Fandom in general from this.



Something that might be worth doing is sending an apology letter to Zun on behalf of everybody involved...?
even if it was mostly FromSoySauce's fault, we all know that, doesn't matter. Just apologise on behalf of the whole western fandom: if only to show him this is not what the majority of us wanted.

i dunno, just throwing that out there.  :ohdear:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 04, 2015, 11:03:54 PM
what i'm really curious about is, have there been any official comments from Team Shanghai Alice on this (other than forcing the closure of the Crowdfunding)?
how commonly does this happen that ZUN actually does Crackdown on a fan project like this for not following his guidelines? not often i guess cause it's one of the first tme i hear of something like this.
Not that I'm aware of, but if I recall correctly ZUN never had official fangame guidelines until very recently. The only other crackdown I can think of was the White Canvas incident where they were selling commercialized comics and other Touhou memorabilia without permission.

Quote
Because one thing that do worry me is that TSA, and the Japanese side of the fandom are probably not aware of all this internal conflict and intricacies within the project, and may get bad ideas about MOTC, or the western Fandom in general from this.

Something that might be worth doing is sending an apology letter to Zun on behalf of everybody involved...?
even if it was mostly FromSoySauce's fault, we all know that, doesn't matter. Just apologise on behalf of the whole western fandom: if only to show him this is not what the majority of us wanted.

i dunno, just throwing that out there.  :ohdear:
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Our contact with TSA has been notified of the current state of the mess and I doubt ZUN isn't going to take it personally. I'm more concerned about the blatant disregard for ZUN's wishes on the matter, but thankfully everyone seemed to be respectful of it even if FSS was refusing to play nice.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: FLASH on February 04, 2015, 11:17:05 PM
ah good to know.  :)

well, in the end this is just another crowdfunding debacle amongst so many others in indie game developement.
it's probably a wise move to prevent promotiing it alltogether on the forums, i  agree.
if the dev want to do crowdfunding fine, that's his right, but he have other ways to advertise it than on internet forums anyway.

my vision of it is that you should do crowdfunding only if you already have something very concrete and advanced in developement and legal stuff, and certain to give at least birth to something .

at that point, there should already be hype for your game anyway if people care about it, so ideally you shouldn't even have to advertise a crowdfunding campaign in the fisrt place.
only my 2 cents i guess.  :derp:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Sparen on February 04, 2015, 11:20:22 PM
Thank you for writing that post.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 04, 2015, 11:24:02 PM
I am personally sorry for all the members of MotK appearing in this video, abusing your posts and making it look like we are the bad guys. As RikaNitori section moderator on MotK, I cannot express anything but disapproval to Saijee & FromSoySauce. I can only offer my sincere apologies to those unwillingly involved in this. I know internet words mean probably nothing, but we all tried to help. Others more than me.

Again, sincere apologies.

--Helepolis




I am quite at discomfort to see him dragging in all kinds of members from MotK, who did nothing but contribute to the thread in a mature way. Saijee dragged them all out in the open for no reason. If Saijee had single piece of guts he would take this personally with me or the mods in PM before he was told to stop trashing people's thread. Probation does not restrict PMing, ShinesBright got additional punishment for obvious reasons and that was obsessive PM harassment. Probation also allows you to post in Shiki Eiki's section to communicate with mods for obvious reasons.

But nope, he had to send ShinesBright in acting as his foolish proxy to communicate with me. Saijee refused to step forward to use any of these methods, because he is a spineless kid throwing an immature tantrum dragging members. This isn't a child's game so you don't deal with such things in a childish way. Can't handle the heat? Send your brothers. He has so called two brothers, what the hell do they even think of his behaviour?

All my PMs are being disclosed there. Blurred or not, the actual content and way of wording can have great impact on understanding. After all, hard to express emotions in bunch of letters. So it could easily give false impression of my words.

Plus, I already knew ShinesBright would pass on the PMs to Saijee for his hate-fueling, hence I refused from communicating with her in the first place. Her purpose wasn't getting answers on her question, but to stir drama and harass/troll. I am not foolish to know what this obsessive delusional fool is going to do with the information.

Not to mention his doxxing towards Ruw-san is just really not done. Heavy disapproval, didn't expect him to get so obsessive about his own failure. He needs professional help if you ask me.

@ Colticide, you can always claim privacy violation by reporting the video on youtube.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Edible on February 04, 2015, 11:40:51 PM
Dude randomly edited a sentence in a PM I sent him calling him a shitheel

(http://i.imgur.com/0njpkfS.png)

lmao

Super appreciate the pride avatar edit too 8)

I wish I had thought of making a dancing robot to rant at people whenever I got my shit pushed in online.  Stroke of genius!
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suikama on February 04, 2015, 11:46:28 PM
I wish I had thought of making a dancing robot to rant at people whenever I got my shit pushed in online.  Stroke of genius!
Edible the Drunk Whale :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 04, 2015, 11:53:50 PM
His behavior towards Ruw-san really just felt like contempt to me, the way he talked about his discovery really felt immature, actually make me a bit disgusted about it all.

@ Helepolis, I'd rather not, you and Paz where more talked about plus I feel if I did it would cause more issues then not.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: SuperVehicle-001 on February 05, 2015, 12:18:17 AM
I've watched most of the video (The part where he talks about Ruw is just too cringe-y for me), but I think he raised one good point.

At about 7:50 or so, he talks about the fact that ZUN's guidelines (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project) were updated, yet the translations were not updated to match. Why hasn't this happened yet? It's been almost FOUR years now since said update.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ZXNova on February 05, 2015, 12:39:28 AM
I never knew he ddox'd someone. Man, that's just heartbreaking. At this point, I'm just... in shock. My ATB bar has been reduced to zero.

Anyway, will someone ever decide to make their own Touhou Smash Battles the right way?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on February 05, 2015, 12:42:00 AM
Dude randomly edited a sentence in a PM I sent him calling him a shitheel

(http://i.imgur.com/0njpkfS.png)

lmao

Super appreciate the pride avatar edit too 8)

I wish I had thought of making a dancing robot to rant at people whenever I got my shit pushed in online.  Stroke of genius!

(http://i.imgur.com/0qgiLeZ.gif)

FromFailSauce
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 05, 2015, 12:56:09 AM
I've watched most of the video (The part where he talks about Ruw is just too cringe-y for me), but I think he raised one good point.

At about 7:50 or so, he talks about the fact that ZUN's guidelines (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project) were updated, yet the translations were not updated to match. Why hasn't this happened yet? It's been almost FOUR years now since said update.

Well its possible that no one has actually translated it for public form or that it doesn't really change much from the old one that there is no reason to update it. Frankly from the "translated" part it seems that we are still where we left off, things seems like they can continue like they were but is now only an issue because it interferes with someones plans.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 05, 2015, 01:53:24 AM
I knew things would turn sour with this guy. Even after all of this trouble had transpired, he learned nothing from the experience and still held his contempt against ZUN and his belief that he did nothing wrong.

This was bound to happen, and in no way am I surprised. It's sad because this was a great idea; it was just handled by the wrong person.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: MewMewHeart on February 05, 2015, 02:09:14 AM
I wanted to keep quiet even as I watched the thread itself and things transpire, I wish things were handled better, but then again I applaud the mods and everyone else who handled the problem well, I hope things turn out better for the future and that a new Touhou Smash is made, but by a person with a better heart and considers things better for others and not for themselves. I wanted to say I was truly disgusted with FSS's way of handling and coping with THEIR loss on privilege to do Touhou games HOWEVER  it makes me hate people who try to monetize good franchises for their own gain.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 05, 2015, 02:26:08 AM
I've watched most of the video (The part where he talks about Ruw is just too cringe-y for me), but I think he raised one good point.

At about 7:50 or so, he talks about the fact that ZUN's guidelines (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project) were updated, yet the translations were not updated to match. Why hasn't this happened yet? It's been almost FOUR years now since said update.
This is incorrect, although the current text might be misleading when saying "the below" doesn't reflect the changes. Only the translation within that box was unaltered, since it was just copied verbatim from the original translation posted on gensokyo.org. The twitter clarification and 02/18 update (which were additions, not alterations) are in the two following sections, the latter clearly saying "summary of blog update".

Of course, if FSS knew what they were talking about at all they would be able to see this just by comparing the blog and the wiki.

We've had some consideration about a retranslation/tweaking, and I have my own rather minor qualms about how some things are worded, but for the most part the guidelines are accurate and I would rather not make hasty edits. An update of that caliber needs some structure and consensus. As hopefully people know by now, any ambiguity would be easily resolved by asking first instead of acting first.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 05, 2015, 03:04:31 AM
Welp.

As one of the more vocal supporters for FSS, I do apologize for perhaps not washing my hands of all this when things were clearly getting suspicious. *sigh.* I was trying so hard to be optimistic, especially since I have a personal bias toward seeing "movie-like" endings where detractors are proven wrong and the valiant underdogs give a big diplomatic yet obvious "WE DID IT" victory finger to everyone and take off into the sunset. I thought that could happen. I was so bogus.

I don't apologize for being a supporter when things were going reasonably and Saijee just seemed kind of...derpy and bumbling. When the first detractors were screaming "maliciousness" when it was most easily attributed to ignorance. But I am so, horribly sorry I didn't see this coming and kept trying to resist you guys so hard when it should've been kind of obvious. Hindsight 20/20 I guess. Consider this my throwing in my hat and asking not to be associated with these folks. I started out trying to defend newbie devs...and it looks like they were just wearing sheep's clothing the whole fucking time.

Now I wash my hands of this and then throw them up in the air. I got nothing. I couldn't save this if I had all the natural 20's ever. I had no *idea* that all this could go so *utterly wrong.* What even *is* this shit?

I'm disappointed in FSS. This came out of fucking nowhere -- the doxxing and all that bullshit. I don't even know.

I do hope that one day someone makes a fun Touhou smasher. It just sure as hell ain't these guys.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 05, 2015, 03:07:35 AM
I'm seeing a few comments about how stupid and an isolationist ZUN is regarding his rules.
"You can't distribute fangames if people don't know what Touhou is?" "That's stupid, how do new people find out?" "Zun's financial policies are moronic."
Stuff like that. People looking at the rules as some kind of tyrannical creed or something, when it's mostly only verbalized doujin sentiments.
Although I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me can say this better, I'll try anyway.
Doujin activity is essentially based off of shared, mutual hobbies. The key word is 'shared.' You don't promote the goods to others who don't know anything about your interests because then that's just commercial business. That's not to say that doujin is an isolated, exclusive membership club. You can share your hobbies; people like to share their talents and find people with the same hobbies, or similar interests. Once you establish this connection of 'sharedness' then the 'goods' naturally follow. That's why the idea of 'for fun' and 'to share works with others of the same interest' is sacred, and simple profiteering is taboo.
I'd imagine I may have gotten some stuff wrong. But someone more involved can correct me.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 05, 2015, 03:12:51 AM
Welp.

As one of the more vocal supporters for FSS, I do apologize for perhaps not washing my hands of all this when things were clearly getting suspicious. *sigh.* I was trying so hard to be optimistic, especially since I have a personal bias toward seeing "movie-like" endings where detractors are proven wrong and the valiant underdogs give a big diplomatic yet obvious "WE DID IT" victory finger to everyone and take off into the sunset. I thought that could happen. I was so bogus.

I don't apologize for being a supporter when things were going reasonably and Saijee just seemed kind of...derpy and bumbling. When the first detractors were screaming "maliciousness" when it was most easily attributed to ignorance. But I am so, horribly sorry I didn't see this coming and kept trying to resist you guys so hard when it should've been kind of obvious. Hindsight 20/20 I guess. Consider this my throwing in my hat and asking not to be associated with these folks. I started out trying to defend newbie devs...and it looks like they were just wearing sheep's clothing the whole fucking time.

Now I wash my hands of this and then throw them up in the air. I got nothing. I couldn't save this if I had all the natural 20's ever. I had no *idea* that all this could go so *utterly wrong.* What even *is* this shit?

I'm disappointed in FSS. This came out of fucking nowhere -- the doxxing and all that bullshit. I don't even know.

I do hope that one day someone makes a fun Touhou smasher. It just sure as hell ain't these guys.

I just feel bad that you and I got into it when there was no need for us to to have been hostile, I am very sorry about my behavior during all of it towards you.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Uruwi on February 05, 2015, 03:19:48 AM
I just feel bad that you and I got into it when there was no need for us to to have been hostile, I am very sorry about my behavior during all of it towards you.

No need for an apology.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Reu on February 05, 2015, 03:22:09 AM
I wasted my Rika luck on such a silly project.

Man I shoulda known things would turn out like this the moment I read his reactions towards people telling him it was a bad idea to try and kickstart.
How does someone manage to mess up this much when he really only had to fix one thing?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pywackett-Barchetta on February 05, 2015, 03:43:31 AM
This whole project went from exciting to disappointing to now horrifying unreasonably fast. All we can hope now is that we learn from this, because I don't think anybody's left happy with this result.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 05, 2015, 04:00:18 AM
Wait. April 1st is only in two months or so. Is this for real?

Wow. I'm very disappointed things turned out this way. I think MotK (...mottka?) has been rather emotional about this project but also very, very patient and willing to offer an almost scary amount of assistance, from Helepolis/Drake/others' patient efforts to translate and interpret ZUN/Oyamada/Ruw's communications to N-Forza's willingness to help distribute the project. In return for this, well, I think we've all seen FSS's response.....

This is sad. In no way should any developer act this way. Pardon my french but anyone who gives two shits about their project should focus on giving people something to enjoy, no matter the cost. Not using it as a vehicle for their personal issues and as a means to bite the hand that feeds them (so to speak). TSSB went from an interesting and highly-anticipated idea to a growing quagmire of fuck-ups, to a complete circus. I'd say we should just forget about them and move on with our lives, and not bother to stoop to their level. But then there's the fact that unknowing youtube viewers will inevitably get sucked into their lying bullshit and start thinking ZUN/doujin culture is xenophobic and deserves "what's coming to them" by breaking ZUN's guidelines, overtly pirating the games, or otherwise. It's especially sad that one (well, three) people who claim to love Touhou would set the WTC back so far in so little time.

I would happily buy everyone on this forum a beer if I could. Wouldn't fix a damned thing but at least something positive should come out of everyone's efforts, no matter how insignificant it may be. Failing that, I offer my sincerest thanks to everyone who has put aside their valuable time to help out a worthless developer..... This may have turned more sour than any of us imagined but you've all done more than anyone should have and have shown just how deeply the WTC cares.....

What a shame. I thought this was done and over with.... =/
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: SuperVehicle-001 on February 05, 2015, 04:11:20 AM
This is incorrect, although the current text might be misleading when saying "the below" doesn't reflect the changes. Only the translation within that box was unaltered, since it was just copied verbatim from the original translation posted on gensokyo.org. The twitter clarification and 02/18 update (which were additions, not alterations) are in the two following sections, the latter clearly saying "summary of blog update".

Of course, if FSS knew what they were talking about at all they would be able to see this just by comparing the blog and the wiki.

We've had some consideration about a retranslation/tweaking, and I have my own rather minor qualms about how some things are worded, but for the most part the guidelines are accurate and I would rather not make hasty edits. An update of that caliber needs some structure and consensus. As hopefully people know by now, any ambiguity would be easily resolved by asking first instead of acting first.

I see. Then I suppose there's nothing good to be taken from this video at all.

Bah. This entire thing was supposed to be over already, with the whole "Nansei Doujin Spirit" thing or whatever. Why are they still going? What do they gain from this?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 05, 2015, 04:18:40 AM
No need for an apology.

Hi, but he was talking to *me.* I still remember you as the person who told people to actually go die. Please don't speak for me or put words in my mouth. Thank you.



Colticide:
I just feel bad that you and I got into it when there was no need for us to to have been hostile, I am very sorry about my behavior during all of it towards you.


No harm done at all! :) You were definitely interesting to talk to/debate with, and I have no hard feelings. I hope you don't, either -- I apologize if I got intense sometimes and didn't keep my diplomacy face on.


Jeez I forgot the other reason I had posted again. So, I did have a few questions that maybe people could clarify for me that were brought up in the video. I apologize profusely if some of these are totally dumb; I *am* running on five hours of sleep and sometimes stuff goes over my head regardless. Even so, my ramblings, both questions and general statements:

Questions:
1) Was all of Ruw's information publicly accessible? Not that throwing it all out there is a good thing at all, but were they being crass or actually illicit?
2) So just for logistics' sake...ZUN is the same as Team Shanghai Alice, a one-man group, *but* there is a company called Kourindou that has more members than *just* TSA/ZUN, including the person FSS claims to have spoken to during this whole debacle and who generally monitors ZUN's copyright issues etc? Did I get this right? Is this claim legit? Just curious; no conspiracy theory involved.
3) *Were* there many changes to the threads made by MotK admins? I thought I noticed some of ShinesBright's posts vanishing, and if I recall from my old days of wanting to delete my art thread, members *can't* delete their own stuff. If there were changes/deletions, why? I didn't look at FSS's "original posts" file, because I have no idea if that is what the original threads looked like or whatever, but are those correct?
4) The part about ZUN's Japanese guidelines having a section that says they don't answer individual groups or circles concerns me, because doesn't ZUN say in another area to contact him with concerns about the guidelines? Why direct people to a blatantly stated dead end?
5) What *is* going on with that Chinese crowdfunded thing?

Ramblings:
1) I do think the moderators swearing at Saijee kinda gave a bad impression in general. Professionalism is nice. Although now it's kind of moot since shit has gone *bonkers* since last time I really tried to pay attention. Not that it didn't go bonkers a bit earlier. The fact that someone can post a screencap of an admin calling someone "shitheel" is...er...kinda poor form I think. >< If this forum is going to try to be a core of western fandom, some amount of professionalism under serious situations seems in order.
2) Posting a conversation from PMs after the other party tells you not to is bullshit and seriously lame. Choir preaching etc I know.
3) Man this video gets really UFO conspiracy theorist at about the halfway point. WTF.
4) People do in general get a bit trigger-happy when it comes to folks questioning ZUN. I'll agree with that one. Though that's more...random internet than here.
5) I winced every fucking time those folks showed people's usernames. Oy. Not that we don't know they have no shame, but man, they have no shame. ><
6) There *were* a bunch of contradictions in people's advice here. "Make a demo NOW." "YOU LOSER YOU MADE A DEMO INSTEAD OF DOING X, Y, AND Z." "Take a break, you're super stressed and losing it." "WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED US IN A DAY?!"  Though that waned into "good lord he really *isn't* listening" later, but earlier I honestly was...confused what anyone wanted.
7) They clearly don't understand even now that the "doujin guidelines" are not a rules document. No committee determines them. They're a cultural phenomenon. Jeez, we said this like a zillion times to them, I don't even.

Done. There we go. I need real sleep. XD
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 04:23:54 AM
I see. Then I suppose there's nothing good to be taken from this video at all.

Bah. This entire thing was supposed to be over already, with the whole "Nansei Doujin Spirit" thing or whatever. Why are they still going? What do they gain from this?
Even the name of the new "project" is an insult to the doujin community :|. I was willing to put simple ignorance on him at first but in reality he's just some messed up child who is throwing a temper tantrum he didn't get his way. Gaming culture would be better served without people like him.

MotK (...mottka?)
... this is now the canon pronunciation.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Uruwi on February 05, 2015, 04:28:57 AM
Hi, but he was talking to *me.* I still remember you as the person who told people to actually go die. Please don't speak for me or put words in my mouth. Thank you.

My bad.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 05, 2015, 04:41:27 AM
Even the name of the new "project" is an insult to the doujin community :|.

I am really surprised that name has stuck even this long. Wow. Yeah, it was clearly a snipe from the very beginning ><
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Letty Whiterock 2.0 on February 05, 2015, 04:48:03 AM
What an incredible mess.

Hi, it's me again, Letty. I know I'm not supposed to be here, and I apologize for past grievances, but there are a few things that need to be said about this whole fiasco.

This entire project, from the ground-up, has been built on a platform of selfishness. It was never about making a cool thing for people to enjoy; it was about using something people enjoy as a stepping stone to notoriety. It was blatant from the start, and I feel bad for the people who put faith in this thing. I certainly won't blame you for having hope in it. I just wish people could have seen this coming.

The reason I'm even posting about this whole thing is because I actually have something of a personal stake in the matter. I am part of a small localization team subcontracted by Active Gaming Media, the company behind the Playism gaming portal and the current license holders of Touhou Project. I had a short discussion about this with a few members of their staff during a production meeting, and I knew it was a serious issue when they had to discuss the matter with their legal team.

What needs to be understood completely here by the general public and members of prospective doujin developers in the West is this event has actively made our jobs harder. The doujin community doesn't like crowdfunding their projects, because it not only goes against the spirit of fanworks, but it is also viewed as a financial investment/business transaction/preorder with an implied guarantee of a perfect product. On top of that, they certainly wouldn't accept preemptive revenue for an IP they don't even own. The Touhou Smash project basically spit all over the general ethics of doujin development and, in short, affected trust in Western markets, potential to significant degrees with some individuals. This isn't okay. A trust issue has been formed over this, and now, some small devs will want to have extra insurance in knowing that their IP and rights are protected. Team Shanghai Alice has the resources and connections to deal with this sort of thing. Random circle Milky Starfire might not.

Distancing itself from FSS and the entire project is the best thing that both MotK and the entire Western Touhou Community can do to essentially save face in the matter and reassure general devs that this was a fringe action. $20,000+ is a ton of money, and we have to collectively show that playing with that kind of fire is condemned by our communities.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Fulisha of Light on February 05, 2015, 04:50:47 AM
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/747/593/4d7.gif)

That's pretty much my reaction right there. You only had to listen Saijee, really.  :(

I still don't like them using the name Nansei; I'm a fan of LENK64's work and them using it feels insulting.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ZXNova on February 05, 2015, 04:52:48 AM
I still hope for there to be a Touhou Smash, someday. I'd be willing to do it if I could.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: N-Forza on February 05, 2015, 05:17:21 AM
I didn't watch the video; did I get a shout-out? :V

I still want to give them the benefit of the doubt that, at first, they were legitimately wanting to raise money simply to speed up the process, not to make a profit. I understand that crowdfunding comes off as risky and commercialistic, to say the least, but they had seemingly honest intentions at first and something to show which put them way ahead of most campaigns. Then they made $20,000 and let it go to their heads.

They're indefensible at this point, and their only salvation will be if they admit they screwed up and just walk away from the fiasco, lesson learned. Kinda implausible that will happen at this point though...
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 05:57:16 AM
Questions:
1) Was all of Ruw's information publicly accessible? Not that throwing it all out there is a good thing at all, but were they being crass or actually illicit?
The information posted was WHOIS information, stuff that is generally available to the public, but doxxing is still doxxing. Internet detectiving someone to expose their personal information is gross and using it as a weapon is never justified.

Quote
2) So just for logistics' sake...ZUN is the same as Team Shanghai Alice, a one-man group, *but* there is a company called Kourindou that has more members than *just* TSA/ZUN, including the person FSS claims to have spoken to during this whole debacle and who generally monitors ZUN's copyright issues etc? Did I get this right? Is this claim legit? Just curious; no conspiracy theory involved.
Dunno, I just know RuW was also involved in handling the White Canvas fiasco.

Quote
3) *Were* there many changes to the threads made by MotK admins? I thought I noticed some of ShinesBright's posts vanishing, and if I recall from my old days of wanting to delete my art thread, members *can't* delete their own stuff. If there were changes/deletions, why? I didn't look at FSS's "original posts" file, because I have no idea if that is what the original threads looked like or whatever, but are those correct?
There is actually a 15 minute window where a post can be deleted by the person posting it IIRC. That being said we don't tend to remove or edit posts unless something particularly gross or mean is posted, and when we do a note is left either on the post or in the thread who did it and why. That being said Helepolis strongly asserts that not a single post was touched by staff in the 39 page guidelines discussion thread that was spawned by this mess. And he's willing to publish any and all PMs sent between him and Saijee/ShinesBright to keep the record straight.

Quote
4) The part about ZUN's Japanese guidelines having a section that says they don't answer individual groups or circles concerns me, because doesn't ZUN say in another area to contact him with concerns about the guidelines? Why direct people to a blatantly stated dead end?
I doubt there's any malicious intent behind that guideline. I think what was really meant was that ZUN doesn't tend to answer questions made from individuals on touhou related matters but that if there's any sort of question of whether they might be violating the letter or the spirit of the guidelines they should get in touch with him.

He has a very strong belief that he wants to stay as hands off as possible from the touhou fanwork universe and not show any sort of bias or favoritism or official "blessing" towards any one project or circle. I imagine the intent of the first guideline was to relay that ZUN doesn't want to be consulted on how Touhou should be interpreted by others.

Quote
5) What *is* going on with that Chinese crowdfunded thing?!
My understanding that it isn't as much crowd funding as it is getting people to vote for them to get the kit needed to develop on the PS4.

Quote
1) I do think the moderators swearing at Saijee kinda gave a bad impression in general. Professionalism is nice. Although now it's kind of moot since shit has gone *bonkers* since last time I really tried to pay attention. Not that it didn't go bonkers a bit earlier. The fact that someone can post a screencap of an admin calling someone "shitheel" is...er...kinda poor form I think. >< If this forum is going to try to be a core of western fandom, some amount of professionalism under serious situations seems in order.
Eh I don't consider language as a sign of professionalism, but I do try to be polite and respectful of such. That being said not all staffers share that same opinion and I don't intend on regulating the speech of my minions as long as they're not intentionally degrading people.

I do try to be a bit more.. ahem... eloquent and not my usual weebtrash self when working in an official capacity. That being said I can't help the level of snark that comes out of my mouth sometimes :b
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 05, 2015, 06:18:10 AM
Howdy, Paz here (one of the guys who wwas mentioned several time in the video)
Before anything, I would like to firstly apologize for any  of my actions that may have potentially increased the MoTK (I personally pronounce it as Motkei btw) forum's exposure as the highlight of the sh*tflinging video... considering I have done my fair share of sharing the old now locked MoTK thread over publicly on facebook back in the days the issue was still hot. I was also the one who publicised the whole twitter debacle and potentially was one of the person who started the negative sentiment regarding FSS to the public folks who aren't member of MoTK. His video today is a retaliatory action against the negative sentiments that I have partly contribute into... and since it put you guys under public scrutiny, my apologize for that

Anyhow, in the video Saijee mentioned how I broke a promise with him, while all I promise is that to stop sharing screenshots of HIS CONVERSATIONS if he agrees to check out MoTK and hang around to respond to people inquiry (when Doujin spirit was announced) thus that was the reason for why he shows up on MoTK one last time for the debacle... and I don't see how me posting about someone else posts who has been sh*tposting publicly on a Touhou page; would be a violation of this promise unless that person I reported was indeed a sockpuppet account of his.

I also was the one who redirected Shinebright to the MoTK forum after half an hour talking to her on FB while getting nowhee; I do aware she was but his cohort... but I naively believed that perhaps things could be made clearer to her with MoTK help... how wrong i was... part of me also redirected her here because I was kinda sick of wall of texts going nowhere and pass her off my hands to you guys... my lazy way out... sorry about that

Anyhow, the video features quite a bit of me... but instead of feeling attacked... I am in fact quite honored with my inclusion in this great movement of showing truth and honesty of the Western fandom raising voices against such uncondonable actions from saijee... while I can't speak for others who appear in that video (especially on the Japan side, poor Ruw); I can say that I am pretty happy and pleasant with the video, in a few hours I will head home and once again do what I can only do... posting this event publicly regarding 2 sides with my own personal 2 cents onto FB

Anyhow regardless, my apologies to anyone who wasn't pleased with this video; while I have played a part in help escahings to this point; and a thank you to everyone here who has helped exposing the nastiness of this whole debacle for our entire fandom
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 05, 2015, 06:34:20 AM
Quote
I do think the moderators swearing at Saijee kinda gave a bad impression in general. Professionalism is nice. Although now it's kind of moot since shit has gone *bonkers* since last time I really tried to pay attention. Not that it didn't go bonkers a bit earlier. The fact that someone can post a screencap of an admin calling someone "shitheel" is...er...kinda poor form I think. >< If this forum is going to try to be a core of western fandom, some amount of professionalism under serious situations seems in order.
I agree this was a little unprofessional. But I think it's worth pointing out that this behavior was the result of over 30 pages of patient assistance and explanations which were met with, in the best of cases, "Oh okay, I see. <goes post on YouTube like the conversation never took place>". The MotK staff is human and everyone has their breaking point. It may not be acceptable but it's certainly understandable, in my opinion at least.

Quote
I don't see how me posting about someone else posts who has been sh*tposting publicly on a Touhou page; would be a violation of this promise unless that person I reported was indeed a sockpuppet account of his.
This is just my opinon, again, but it seems to me like you'd have to be ridiculously paranoid to make a fuss out of someone reposting PUBLIC posts. As far as I know you never posted anything privately discussed between you and Saijee, or anything we couldn't go and see for ourselves for that matter.

(For what it's worth isn't posting PMs in his video the same as posting the contents of an email on a message board? Why is it suddenly acceptable for them to do it when asking them to post the takedown email was constantly met with 'ogodlegalissues plz don't encriminate us'?)

Anyway. Paz, I think you did a good job trying to contain fires sprouting up beyond the scope of the forum, regardless of what happened with Shinebright or how it may have contributed to the latest video. At this point I think keeping people informed of both sides of the issue is more important than the opinion an obvious troll and a dev team suffering from a severe case of the crazies. =)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 05, 2015, 07:34:38 AM
I agree this was a little unprofessional. But I think it's worth pointing out that this behavior was the result of over 30 pages of patient assistance and explanations which were met with, in the best of cases, "Oh okay, I see. <goes post on YouTube like the conversation never took place>". The MotK staff is human and everyone has their breaking point. It may not be acceptable but it's certainly understandable, in my opinion at least.

I totally agree. We were basically trying to reason with and explain things to someone who, quite frankly, didn't give a damn. So you can't blame people for losing their patience when this became a recurring problem.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: monhan on February 05, 2015, 08:12:34 AM
Let's take a moment and facepalm in unison.


First of all, I apologize if my participation in this matter ended up causing a problem, but at the moment I'm just worried on how to explain this situation to the Japanese community to minimize the damage done.
Most people I talked to already considered them as bad as White Canvas, and even marked them as "doujin goro"(cuc explained this term before) or in other words "scums" even before this. Now the situation became even worse.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Amew The Fox on February 05, 2015, 08:21:17 AM
Honestly, I ran out of sympathy for Saijee and his group a few days after I posted in the discussion thread. This video just confirmed that I just don't care for "Nansei Doujin Spirit" or any FSS related material. I told him that now is not the time to be pointing fingers. Accusing Moogs of playing foul with the guidelines was just the last straw for me. He only viewed Danmaku!! in relation to Tabletop Simulator, (which was never the point of Danmaku!!, it was just a nice bonus that Moogs found) and the base argument that he tried to present against it can easily be defeated by the same logic that Touhoumon exists by.

By the way, I only got to watch over half of it before having to go to work, so I got to stew over that for ten hours. Thanks, Saijee. Consider FSS removed from my sub box. I was also going to look into that 3D shump thing they had too because I thought it looked interesting.

I just hope this doesn't drive a bigger stake between the east and west fandoms. Let's use this as a learning exercise, so hopefully this tragedy doesn't happen again.

(Note that I am not trying to speak for Moogs and he is free to correct me)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 05, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
Dude randomly edited a sentence in a PM I sent him calling him a shitheel

(http://i.imgur.com/0njpkfS.png)

lmao

Super appreciate the pride avatar edit too 8)

I wish I had thought of making a dancing robot to rant at people whenever I got my shit pushed in online.  Stroke of genius!
See, this is one of the reasons why I said blurring out our true text then replacing it with his own is scheming and disturbing. Saijee's version makes it look like I too called Saijee a shitheel and that Edible is agreeing with me blindly. Except as Edible showed the true PM, he speaks from his own personal opinion.

Shows again how much of a scheming liar Saijee actually is.

Forcefully also editing the Wiki for Team Shanghai Alice http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Team_Shanghai_Alice&action=history   for his video.

I'll grab some breakfast first and then show you screenshots of the PMs between Saijee, Shade and Shines.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 05, 2015, 08:30:10 AM
Hey, I'm in the video! :D Several times, too! Across different platforms as well!

That said, just like the few other videos on the subject, his latest video seems to be yet another one-sided shit-slinging passive aggressive trainwreck of a video, no real surprise there. Also doxxing. New low, I guess.

Actually scratch the passive-aggressive part, he just flat out accuses people now.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: JxMarik on February 05, 2015, 09:22:33 AM
Urgh...
Can't this guy just give up and work on his nonsensical "doujin spirit" game ?

He was wrong and he was told so since his indiegogo launch. Since the campaign was removed, he acts like a whiny kid who doesn't understand why his shiny toy was taken away, blaming TSA and the people who agreed with them/thought the same.

I hope he sees the reality behind been a game developer soon.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 05, 2015, 09:34:54 AM
Disclaimer: Since my own PM's got published out in the blue including very suspicious editing and rewording, I am forced to disclose the true PMs myself.

Holy shit this took my a lot of effort to screenshot and order in chronological order. Because ShinesBright decided to actually send multiple PMs at some point. All given times are in GMT+1 (aka my local time in The Netherlands). I usually sleep between 0:00 ~ 7:30. Why I am telling you this? Because it is important to know for the chronological order.

While the discussion thread was still going on and Saijee started showing signs of ignorance
[attach=10]
I tried offering even personal assistance. You know, my personal time, all for the sake of help. For obvious reasons, the e-mail and skype ID has been censored out. I am not a dickhead to go reveal personal information, including my own.


[attach=1]
For some reason, Saijee was paranoid. My stance here was still helpful and aidful, because I believed he was being delusional.
Now I understand why he asked me not to delete anything. Just to forge this doxxing video of his.


Discussion thread ended, locked by me. Preparing the new guideline general thread
[attach=2]
I have monitored ShinesBright behaviour on youtube and facebook. I know who I am dealing with, and the multiple IP triggering from Saijee's Home IP made me really suspicious here. (Their university IP triggered too, but the home WAN IP is what made me really suspicious).

[attach=3]
I wrote this post in between. From again out of my own personal will and desire to explain. Of course, stating the truth: I echo'd the 34 pages thread. Logically, ShinesBright isn't here to listen to my opinion, just to seek out drama.

[attach=4]

[attach=9]
Here is Saijee himself requesting to move on and drop the drama. I understand why now, afraid of getting more heat. Kind of late after like.... 25+ pages.

[attach=5]
A new PM again with different title in the middle of the night. Talk about impatience. Yes I did address her for being rude which is my right to do so, especially after her multiple PMs and deadline threatening.

[attach=6]
Another new PM with different title, apologising first but then spamming me with her same wall of text.

[attach=7]
Another new PM with another different title. Again she is hammering hard on her wall of text. She didn't read any of the 34 pages of course, because she doesn't need to. Saijee used her account as sockpuppet eventually anyway.

[attach=8]
Another new PM. I stopped responding after this PM. Never even approved her question whether it is ok to publish the PM.


So yea, according to Saijee and ShinesBright: I've been a very very rude mod, censoring things and deleting / editing posts/threads and not willing to answer questions or communicate.

--Helepolis
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 05, 2015, 09:49:59 AM
I'm frankly baffled that this is even still going on at all. Jesus, is it really that hard to just move on and make that passive-aggressively titled game?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Spotty Len on February 05, 2015, 09:57:38 AM
I'm frankly baffled that this is even still going on at all. Jesus, is it really that hard to just move on and make that passive-aggressively titled game?
Honestly, at this point, I'm seeing them like a child making a tantrum because he was scolded for making something bad, except this child is trying to destroy the room he is in as much as possible while being excessively stubborn about how he did nothing wrong.

I stopped caring at some point, though I was still impressed by everybody's patience here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 05, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
Haven't seen video yet, concerned about him taking a post of mine out of context, wish I wasn't on mobile at the time (And now)

Personally, I think he feels he needs to make up an excuse, either to his fan base or maybe IGG.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 05, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
Is it alright for me to publicize this thread and the front page's newest article? Especially that new conversation that Heleo has just posted?
*I have asked around through pm for permission to post but there seems to be no respond so I am asking it again here, sorry =3= *
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Aya Reiko on February 05, 2015, 10:10:13 AM
...

......

What an epic dumbass.  Can we purge his (and probably all of his cronies) existence from the place?  As in delete all threads he started and all posts he made.  This little f***** doesn't deserve the right to exist.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 05, 2015, 10:15:33 AM
...

......

What an epic dumbass.  Can we purge his (and probably all of his cronies) existence from the place?  As in delete all threads he started and all posts he made.  This little f***** doesn't deserve the right to exist.
That would be an epically bad move considering how it can be interpret as us destroying evidences... and also considering how all the archive on here work against him... not for him
Getting rid of 30 pages of evidences would be a really really bad move
*also, chill*
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pesco on February 05, 2015, 10:41:41 AM
There's value in keeping it. A lesson to a future dev or nostalgic gold :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 05, 2015, 11:05:57 AM
nostalgic gold :V
Years from now, we'll reminisce with high spirits and raised pinkies.

But in all seriousness, the 30+ pages incriminate him, it needs to be kept.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Fulisha of Light on February 05, 2015, 11:12:06 AM
I have monitored ShinesBright behaviour on youtube and facebook. I know who I am dealing with, and the multiple IP triggering from Saijee's Home IP made me really suspicious here. (Their university IP triggered too, but the home WAN IP is what made me really suspicious).

Were Saijee and ShinesBright the same person or something? I'm not too familiar with the term "sockpuppet account".
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 05, 2015, 11:26:51 AM
Well she is not exactly a sockpuppet, but his close friend IRL
Doesn't know a nick about Touhou aside from just enough facts learnt hastily to enter the fray to support her friend and spam my page with ill-informed filths
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 05, 2015, 11:37:05 AM
Shines might be a real individual, but from our moderation logs she never triggered an unique non-Uni WAN IP which didn't link to Saijee. I was expecting like 1 IP which was "ShinesBright home", but there was none. Therefore either she was physically posting from Saijee's home or Saijee hijacked her account and abused it for his own good. From the style change in the PMs I suspect the latter but don't ignore the former either. It is a huge mess.

Is it alright for me to publicize this thread and the front page's newest article? Especially that new conversation that Heleo has just posted?
*I have asked around through pm for permission to post but there seems to be no respond so I am asking it again here, sorry =3= *
My apologies, in between the PM publishing and working on my game your PM was not proper answered. I'll get to that right now while eating lunch.

Edit: Done.

Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Aya Reiko on February 05, 2015, 11:38:00 AM
That would be an epically bad move considering how it can be interpret as us destroying evidences... and also considering how all the archive on here work against him... not for him
Getting rid of 30 pages of evidences would be a really really bad move
*also, chill*
gp, he really would be that shallow.  Better let it drift off the front pages and into irrelevance.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 05, 2015, 11:45:52 AM
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 05, 2015, 11:56:41 AM
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?
I've forwarded our opinion and video link to Ruw-san on Twitter. Monhan also supported my limited Japanese to state we do not approve the video.

Saijee's behaviour has impacted quite wide number of people and areas. Not just on MotK. I've scanned several locations on the internet and discomfort is expressed pretty much in similar or more expressive ways. I am also not going to start a silly mission to show his "fans" that they are blinded by lies and scheming and worst of all, Doxxing. Any sane person with common sense can read and see for himself instead of believing in the 1-sided story from Saijee.

I don't need to cleanse my own name on Youtube neither intend or need to. If he decided to disclose and alter my own PMs publicly on Youtube, than that is his immature behaviour and all I can do is laugh at it and provide the actual PMs here.

There isn't much damage control required because they didn't trash our forum. The damage they done to the involved members and their effort/time is something that we cannot repair unfortunately. We can only as MotK make a statement (which Helvetica did) that we disapprove.

Saijee's dev thread in RikaNitori has been also locked, but not removed. He is not welcome any more here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 05, 2015, 12:01:42 PM
We've never really had any damage besides disparaging comments from various blindly-supportive Youtube/FB followers that don't intend to read the actual thread, even though it's even posted in the video description. Go figure, right? Pretty much anyone else actually interested in this case at all that gets to MotK's involvement, even people from Japan that can't read english very well, know that our discussions have been mostly criticism.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: monhan on February 05, 2015, 12:06:42 PM
I'm kinda afraid to ask, but how are we doing on damage control?

On the Japanese side, Yonjin and the others mostly know about the real story of this mess, but this is still mostly taken as an insult by them. Thankfully, they haven't payed too much attention to this for quite a while so not many have find out about this. Only a few who kept watching it, mostly friend of Ruw.
I'm still not sure how Ruw is taking this though.

On the non-Japan side,  there are people who blindly and some "converted" to support FSS, but at this point just consider them a lost cause.
For something we can do, Paz is preparing to make a post with the whole 2 sides of the story in the Touhou Facebook page. Hopefully that can help people who are too confused with this issue.

But like Drake said, at most it's just a disparity of opinions, albeit a terrible one
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 05, 2015, 12:07:48 PM
What's also pretty funny about this mess of a video is that in the Facebook post sharing it, they explicitely say "FSS will not respond to comments for this video or this FB post." It's like they know they'll be called out on the pure bullshit they're spewing in the video, so they wrote a disclaimer saying they won't deal with the backlash.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: cuc on February 05, 2015, 12:12:15 PM
My regret was that I had not taken a hard look at their crowdfunding goals earlier - I was hospitalized when they first launched the Indiegogo campaign. The goals were so hugely unrealistic that they could only mean two things about the developer: they were either pulling a scam, or completely deluded about what is feasible in game development.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 05, 2015, 12:53:32 PM
Heh, nobody is as dense and uninformed as these guys were. From the beginning I felt that they were playing dumb in an attempt to run with people's money. Of course the plan backfired, and they're playing the victims now.

But well, assuming they were not just pretending, they're victims of their own inability to read and comprehend, nothing else.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Daya on February 05, 2015, 12:55:14 PM
I wonder if/should this statement could be something that could also be translated into Japanese (since this is on the front page).

I am fairly sure there's some eyes going in this direction.

Edit: I have decided this should be shared, so excerpted and linked (repeatedly)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: N-Forza on February 05, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
My regret was that I had not taken a hard look at their crowdfunding goals earlier
Eh, I doubt it would've mattered much. They already had people warning them again it, and they were ignored.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 12:57:40 PM
Oh, another 30-minute video of shitty animation and shameless bullshit?

(http://i.imgur.com/Mrq3BsD.gif)

The interactions that FSS had with MotK have been in bad faith from Day One, and their entire project is built on embodying the worst aspects of the WTC. Behold the fail that is this clusterfuck, if you must, but a new day dawns. This whole thing is the proverbial fart in the wind. Good riddance to bad garbage.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 05, 2015, 01:00:24 PM
got sone one to post a heads up ok on lenk's page so she doesn't get blindsided by this.

I really hate mobile typing on a bus.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: TresserT on February 05, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
1) I do think the moderators swearing at Saijee kinda gave a bad impression in general. Professionalism is nice. Although now it's kind of moot since shit has gone *bonkers* since last time I really tried to pay attention. Not that it didn't go bonkers a bit earlier. The fact that someone can post a screencap of an admin calling someone "shitheel" is...er...kinda poor form I think. >< If this forum is going to try to be a core of western fandom, some amount of professionalism under serious situations seems in order.

*snip*

6) There *were* a bunch of contradictions in people's advice here. "Make a demo NOW." "YOU LOSER YOU MADE A DEMO INSTEAD OF DOING X, Y, AND Z." "Take a break, you're super stressed and losing it." "WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED US IN A DAY?!"  Though that waned into "good lord he really *isn't* listening" later, but earlier I honestly was...confused what anyone wanted.
These have been my biggest problems with this whole thing (well, at least on this side). Once Saijee said youtube and facebook were his priorities (which may or may not have been justified) people started getting really nasty with him. I can see why he'd be offended- I'd be offended too if I were in his situation. Even if it's good advice, if you say "hey shithead, you should be doing X, Y and Z, idiot" of course no one's going to listen. The whole indiegogo mess was his problem, but the bad blood didn't come just from him.

Of course, now his "professionalism" is at a totally new level of low, so maybe it's a moot point by now.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Lishy1 on February 05, 2015, 01:42:38 PM
Woah, woah, woah, woah, WOAH, what the in the world in Gensokyo happened while I was gone from MoTK?  I disappear for a year to work on my own Indie project (Bells), and this whole place goes to hell and back???

Making matters worse, one of the developers who's past work I really respected (FSS's Glass Wing) went ahead and commit dev-suicide?

Personally, I am out of the loop, and I mean *really* out of the loop. But it is very disheartening to see this scandal take place on a community I love so much. Hopefully with enough prayer to the Hakurei Gods, Zun will see it in himself to not hold any bitter taste against our community.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 05, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
TresserT, we've been over this multiple times in the thread too. He never intended to explain the truth to us at MotK, that attitude can be clearly read on the first page of the thread. In his eyes, anybody against him and his will was being ignored or painted black (like with the current video he did).

Diclosing PMs in the public is one thing, but altering them to change their meaning is another thing. Cute that he claims he did that to "protect privacy and kept the original meaning in". But that excuse doesn't fly. Since he altered the meaning of the words knowing they would be understood differently and cause serious damage. And you're wondering why people went nasty with him? Sorry, I don't approve one bit.

Altering content to justify your own lies is just a huge fraud. Especially editing the official global Wiki article of Team Shanghai Alice. And doxxing? Just wow.

Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 05, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
1) Was all of Ruw's information publicly accessible? Not that throwing it all out there is a good thing at all, but were they being crass or actually illicit?
2) So just for logistics' sake...ZUN is the same as Team Shanghai Alice, a one-man group, *but* there is a company called Kourindou that has more members than *just* TSA/ZUN, including the person FSS claims to have spoken to during this whole debacle and who generally monitors ZUN's copyright issues etc? Did I get this right? Is this claim legit? Just curious; no conspiracy theory involved.
3) *Were* there many changes to the threads made by MotK admins? I thought I noticed some of ShinesBright's posts vanishing, and if I recall from my old days of wanting to delete my art thread, members *can't* delete their own stuff. If there were changes/deletions, why? I didn't look at FSS's "original posts" file, because I have no idea if that is what the original threads looked like or whatever, but are those correct?
4) The part about ZUN's Japanese guidelines having a section that says they don't answer individual groups or circles concerns me, because doesn't ZUN say in another area to contact him with concerns about the guidelines? Why direct people to a blatantly stated dead end?
5) What *is* going on with that Chinese crowdfunded thing?
1) It really doesn't matter. You'll get people who claim that gathering publicly-accessible information isn't doxxing "because it's public", but I can't take such responses seriously at all. Even if this was all commonly-known information, the fact that it's being brought up as though it was "uncovered" makes it what it is. It makes me think of siblings that try to stir up as much shit as possible and try to get away with it by saying they didn't actually do anything "wrong" so they can't be punished. "Don't touch me." "I'm not touching you!". This is the attitude of internet edgemeister shitlords.

2) ZUN is the sole member of the doujin circle Team Shanghai Alice. Kourindou would be a company surrounding TSA for formal purposes, but in any release of published Touhou works it's still labeled as works by Team Shanghai Alice. Kourindou is just the bridge to the business world. Oyamada-san deals with various business matters regarding Team Shanghai Alice, and likely has a "position" at Kourindou but it's mostly irrelevant since a business rep doesn't really have to be a part of the company itself. The whole matter is largely unimportant in the context we're talking about.

3) Some of ShinesBright's posts, along with mine, were moved from the MyACG thread to the FSS thread due to it not really being about MyACG's game; requested by me (there are notes where the posts were moved). This was to not fill up said thread. I wanted to take a break and try to relax (i.e. do my other y'know actual work) before replying since it seemed as though there was a lull waiting until people were refunded, but then FSS had to go on to release another video that only reinforced the notion that they were still working under a bunch of misconceptions and that if they still were willing to keep making a Touhou game they were okay. They then moved forward too quickly again and sent more emails in haste, whereas if we had calmed down and put something together this could have worked out better. Anyways the point is that if they're upset that ShinesBright's questions were forgotten, they only have FSS themselves to blame for rushing ahead and creating more urgent matters to respond to.

4) Part of the issue here is that they were using the contact form for companies who are trying to secure a business relationship, or something of similar nature. It isn't really meant for doujin circles, which is generally why you wouldn't get a reply when using it. The whole section in the guidelines titled "Applications for commercial goods", "you need my permission, so here's a point of contact if necessary" should make it clear that it's for businesses trying to sell Touhou merchandise.
That being said, Moogs and Carrot used said form for questions regarding Danmaku!! and they were fine. Maybe their reply was due to a more properly-formed message, but this isn't inconsistent with the guidelines, just FSS' expectations.

5) If you check the relevant thread the summary is that they took their original actions in ignorance, nobody (including them) thinks it was ok, but that it isn't a big deal all things considered. They still can't make their game for the PS4 but they might still win the dev kit for other games, and this is likely to happen unless contest officials DQ them, which is itself unlikely for a variety of reasons.


I sort of wish ShinesBright wasn't banned because I'm still fully willing to answer her questions. If you're reading this, please understand that I've been spending inordinately huge amounts of time trying to help FSS here. I spent two weeks largely focused on this case and have given up a lot of my valuable time to try and make this thing not a total mess. Throwing you into the equation was another variable I could not timely deal with when FSS was storming ahead with their actions and decisions, which you should realize was much more urgent. I never intended to ignore you whatsoever, and given I had already spent quite a bit of time sitting down and answering you, I would hope that you didn't assume I was ignoring you. Your questions were fairly pertinent for someone new to the fanbase, but as said previously, they mostly would have been answered if you had read and understood the posts made in the FSS thread. Additionally, while you seemed sincere in your attempts to understand the situation, your decision to post the same things everywhere, all the time, and asking things that frankly you wouldn't be asking if you really understood what your responders have said: these are all problems. Especially when you essentially repeat yourself after someone answers a question. It all makes you look insincere and suggests that you don't want to come to an understanding, but simply bury people in mountains of questions, claim they weren't answered and stick to whatever preconceived notions you have. Again though, if you actually willing to have a discussion at this point, hopefully without the biases you've been working under so far, I'm still available.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 05, 2015, 01:46:48 PM
Of course, now his "professionalism" is at a totally new level of low, so maybe it's a moot point by now.
This has been my problem with FSS, which I've been typoing as FFS for a few times now. This is the thing that prompted that post about writing a claim on his stuff. I personally think he'd just give it away at this point. As an indie dev, they've been performing poorly as of late. wonder if it'll take someone like TB to get that one across.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: tohosubs on February 05, 2015, 02:15:04 PM
These have been my biggest problems with this whole thing (well, at least on this side). Once Saijee said youtube and facebook were his priorities (which may or may not have been justified) people started getting really nasty with him. I can see why he'd be offended- I'd be offended too if I were in his situation.

I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.

I expect there will be a very detailed wiki created specifically to document this event so that a Google search for "FromSoySauce" or "Saijee Higuchi" will immediately show what they did.

[edit] Thank you for deleting my double post below, mod.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: TresserT on February 05, 2015, 02:37:10 PM
TresserT, we've been over this multiple times in the thread too. He never intended to explain the truth to us at MotK, that attitude can be clearly read on the first page of the thread. In his eyes, anybody against him and his will was being ignored or painted black (like with the current video he did).

Diclosing PMs in the public is one thing, but altering them to change their meaning is another thing. Cute that he claims he did that to "protect privacy and kept the original meaning in". But that excuse doesn't fly. Since he altered the meaning of the words knowing they would be understood differently and cause serious damage. And you're wondering why people went nasty with him? Sorry, I don't approve one bit.

Altering content to justify your own lies is just a huge fraud. Especially editing the official global Wiki article of Team Shanghai Alice. And doxxing? Just wow.
I have to disagree about his attitude towards MotK. You can only say that in hindsight- if it was evident since the beginning that he was a jackass, then nobody would have bothered to help him in the first place. Personally, I don't see any malicious intent in his early posts. You could say he was deliberately trying to keep MotK out of the loop, or you could say he had his priorities elsewhere. It just depends on what you want to view him as.

He only just recently changed the PM. People have been throwing insults since long before then (from what I can see, just before he said youtube was a higher priority than MotK). I get why people have been so upset as of late, but back then it was pretty inexcusable. Of course, I'm not saying this to try and justify his recent actions, which have been downright disgusting, I'm just trying to say that we're not as perfect as we like to pretend. He's handling it like a little kid, but I think his bitterness is justified.

I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.
Oh, yeah, totally. The whole indiegogo thing was just a huge screw up on their part, I'm not disagreing with that at all. And plenty of people offfered decent advice. My problem is that a lot of that good advice was mixed in with/laced with insults. Maybe it was different on skype, and if it was that might change my opinion on the whole thing. But at least here I know that not everyone was exactly friendly towards him. And now people are trying to say "we offered help, he didn't take it, now we're calling him out on it and he's getting butthurt about it". It's not that cut and dry. Though, again, that doesn't excuse his most recent actions.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 02:38:11 PM
BTW Saijee/ShinesBright/Shade_ are the same person or were logged in by the same person. All had logins from the same IP within several hours of eachother.

While Shade_ may have legitly been his brother's account, it was hijacked at one point by Saijee. ShinesBright on the other hand, had eerily similar posting styles to FSS and came out of nowhere to defend FSS vehemently.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 02:46:43 PM
Eh, the Tone Argument being used against MotK rings hollow to me, because a) literally one person used any insults towards FSS (in the discussion thread anyway, and mods were quick to tell them to knock that off), and b) he did indeed display a lot of deliberate trolling/bad faith posting. And not just "in hindsight". How any one user spoke to FSS is completely irrelevant to what was, for many of us, obviously a clusterfuck from Day One, and is further evidenced as such today.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Terrabreak on February 05, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
Im so glad I had a low impression of FSS since the moment things started to get wonky. Cant imagine how it must feel for anyone here who tried to defend their way of doing things only to end in this nuclear trainwreck. As someone who didnt have the guts to watch more than 1 minute of that video, does he even say something about his new proyect or anything else besides bashing against the forum/TSA?

Like I said to Helepolis in youtube (When I tought the drama was over, oh how wrong I were) props to everyone here for sticking with this issue from the start to the very end, I know for sure I wouldn't.

Maybe we should wait for things to cool down and make a hall of "When everything goes wrong". FFS' story would fit perfectly :^)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 05, 2015, 03:47:06 PM
does he even say something about his new proyect or anything else besides bashing against the forum/TSA?

No. The entire video is just a one-sided trainwreck of quote mining, false accusations, PMs that have been blurred out and written over, comments taken out of context to make them look bad, etc etc. A literal trainwreck, even worse than those before.

Also, repeatedly editing the Wikipedia entry for Team Shanghai Alice (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Team_Shanghai_Alice&action=history) to try and push the narrative that TSA isn't a one-man team.

Also, doxxing. *Ding! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgcB7Lkvp44)*
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: UTW on February 05, 2015, 03:50:42 PM
I agree, but FSS can't use this as an excuse for what they did. There were people actually communicating with and trying to help them (email and Skype), at least since the IGG campaign went up.

I expect there will be a very detailed wiki created specifically to document this event so that a Google search for "FromSoySauce" or "Saijee Higuchi" will immediately show what they did.

[edit] Thank you for deleting my double post below, mod.

I started one like a week ago on Touhou Wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Super_Smash_Battles) (that was called out on their Facebook for an apparent minor timeline discrepancy). I tried to document everything that occurred while keeping things as neutral as I could, though I feel I may have skipped over some of the details. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't edit it to try and paint themselves in a better light.

So, anyone that has anything to contribute and has more detail on what went on, feel free to edit that page.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 05, 2015, 03:58:41 PM
I started one like a week ago on Touhou Wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Super_Smash_Battles) (that was called out on their Facebook for an apparent minor timeline discrepancy). I tried to document everything that occurred while keeping things as neutral as I could, though I feel I may have skipped over some of the details. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't edit it to try and paint themselves in a better light.

So, anyone that has anything to contribute and has more detail on what went on, feel free to edit that page.

That page is pretty informative as it is; I think it could use a more complete and detailed overview of the controversy from beginning to end(?), however that would take a lot of work, imo.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 05, 2015, 04:48:57 PM
To clarify to everyone: I do *not* think doxxing is okay. At all. I'm sorry my question implied that I thought i twas; that was poor writing on my part. I was honestly just curious if they went full on illegal or if they just used public information in a bad way. Sorry if I implied I was okay with what they did. Herp derp derp on my part there. (Though I do have to say that the amount of google-fu going on in that video is, while not justified, quite impressive.)

I think my attempts to say "good lord tone is important" are falling on deaf ears. At this point I'll agree to disagree here and say that I think tone is critical for PR and reputation purposes as well as getting people to cooperate instead of knee-jerk resist you, but if others are having success without paying lots of attention to diplomacy, that is totally their decision and if it works, it works. You do you.

On totally other news, the revelation to me that Shines, Saijee, and Shade might've all been the same person caused me to headtilt so hard I have to rotate it back into place by hand. Wow. Woooow. ><
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ExPorygon on February 05, 2015, 05:08:42 PM
BTW Saijee/ShinesBright/Shade_ are the same person or were logged in by the same person. All had logins from the same IP within several hours of eachother.

While Shade_ may have legitly been his brother's account, it was hijacked at one point by Saijee. ShinesBright on the other hand, had eerily similar posting styles to FSS and came out of nowhere to defend FSS vehemently.
I'm curious, how can you tell it was hijacked if they all share the same IP? Saijee and his brother probably live together and thus would of course have the same IP. I think I'm missing something here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 05:26:42 PM
I think my attempts to say "good lord tone is important" are falling on deaf ears. At this point I'll agree to disagree here and say that I think tone is critical for PR and reputation purposes as well as getting people to cooperate instead of knee-jerk resist you, but if others are having success without paying lots of attention to diplomacy, that is totally their decision and if it works, it works. You do you.

I guess this is a matter of perspective, but what I saw in the discussion thread was a lot of sincere effort to help, expressions of confusion, strongly worded criticism - and a few insults, which were smacked down pretty quickly. From my POV, anyway. I think people forget that criticism is not necessarily an attack or an insult, especially if it's in response to some truly frustrating behavior _after_ the patience and goodwill of others has been exhausted. I see where your coming from, but I think perspective is important, and this mild scolding about tone doesn't really have a connection to FSS's actions then or now. As much as I also subscribe to the whole honey catching more flies thing and agree with you in principle, I do not think Saijee would have behaved any differently if people were super-sweet and nice. To suggest otherwise (and I don't think you are, by the way) is to suggest the lack of sweetness drove him to this behavior, which it demonstrably did not.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suwako Moriya on February 05, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
literally one person used any insults towards FSS (in the discussion thread anyway, and mods were quick to tell them to knock that off)

This is something that's bugged me this entire time. In the context of these forums, I've seen more people tell users to lay off the insults than, well, actual insults. What was there other than this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1159537.html#msg1159537) (and a couple of the posts right after it) that I missed?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 05:36:45 PM
I'm curious, how can you tell it was hijacked if they all share the same IP? Saijee and his brother probably live together and thus would of course have the same IP. I think I'm missing something here.
I can believe Shade_ is Saijee's brother and his account got used as a sockpuppet when we whacked Saijee for harassment. Most of Shade_'s posts had a different styke and tone from Saijee's. But ShinesBright's posting style was extremely similar to Saijee's, including, as Helepolis noted, using a particular style to address Helepolis when "she" was angry that Saijee also used. "She" also claimed to only have known about the project from Facebook but had extensive knowledge of things going on here on the forums.

I'm not necessarily saying that Shade_ and ShinesBright weren't real people at one point, but that Saijee very likely used their accounts to continue fighting as if he was a different person when it became clear our patience in dealing with him directly was ending. Maybe he thought that if enough "people" shouted the same things he was we'd clearly learn the errors of our ways and follow the will of the people. A real astroturfing slimeball.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Ciel on February 05, 2015, 06:47:31 PM
I couldn't say I got the whole picture of the entire scenario since I wasn't following it, but I did see trailers of the fangame a bit, and... I admit it did look a bit fishy by how they explained it and their milestones. If my memory serves me right, the characters were called 'maidens', and one of the milestones includes adding new characters and hiring voice actors.

I'm not too familiar with game development (Scratch that, I know nothing), but the way it's handled, from the character models and the quality of work before releasing it did make me think it was a scam... (Which does not seem to be the case, shame on me, but this is... something just as bad in another level. >< ) Still, it's really depressing to see the creator act like this, to the point where it attracted even Zun himself.

I do feel a bit bad for the people who donated to the campaign for the fangame though... I remember that the money amount was more than double of the milestone for those who were looking forward to it, except it came down tumbling down like this...
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 05, 2015, 07:23:43 PM
The whole IGG mess is over, I fail at seeing the rationale behind their new video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5dUbzRMwaI). Did something noteworthy happened and lead them to make it while they were probated ? Why even go back ?

Saijee needs to understand that FSS's case is not the biggest deal ever. The moment they joined the Touhou doujin scene, they pretty much stood on the same level as, y'know, thousand of other Touhou circles, including those who also got into some trouble... with the difference being the fact that they thought it was a fantastic idea to make a big fuss out of their problems and blame their mistakes on the guidelines instead of, like, actually solving the problem or something. Seriously, it shouldn't've turned this big of a mess...

By this point, Saijee is NOT considered to be in the Touhou community anymore : if he wants to start a flame war, then he is the one who'll get burned. Does he still thinks he boasts of a solid support or something ?! He needs to face the fact that he doesn't have the same support he had back around the time he started developing TSSB, and that most of the support he had was mainly because of Touhou... if he's gonna leave the Touhou doujin scene, then he better stay away : just leave Touhou alone. Regardless of what FSS did, they did it as "outsiders" to Touhou : just consider them as trolls like any other, the arguments they keep giving have pretty much been countered anyway...

I guess the guy took the criticism and all the negativity too personally... he might've felt cheated and thinks what he is doing right now is some sort of holy crusade or something, while in fact he is just making himself look bad... He is NOT in the spotlight anymore... he needs to get it over with... Seriously, FSS is only one case amongst many others...
Quote
Advice for Future Touhou Devs
Wat. How conceited. Does he seriously expect that anyone'll do the same mistakes he did ? There are other non Japanese circles that do just fine. This better be an isolated case. I don't consider everything that happened  up until now as a waste of time since it was very educative and interesting, but it needs to end, it's starting to become ridiculous.

*Conspiracy theory*
That or Saijee has multiples personalities and Shinesbright turned out to be one of his alter ego This would have been a fun puzzle to solve, only if he/they was/were not banned lol
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 07:31:58 PM
That or Saijee has multiples personalities and Shinesbright turned out to be one of his alter ego This would have been a fun puzzle to solve, only if he/they was/were not banned lol
Helepolis fuming and getting completely befuddled trying to figure out whether ShinesBright was Saijee or not, while I imagine very very frustrating, was pretty humorous to watch :b.

Alas, he decided to an hero himself and we'll never know~ (unless he tries to sockpuppet again...).
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Aba Matindesu! on February 05, 2015, 07:32:35 PM
I didn't follow the thread at all, so I checked out the video.

It had a paranoid tone, obviously, which set off the alarm bells in my head, but what really lost him all credibility and put me (and undoubtedly countless others) in full cringe mode was the Ruw "dox". Like, no. Just no. It's technically public info, but the audible gasps and... and... no.

I guess I know what I'm reading tonight.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 05, 2015, 07:33:51 PM
...Wat. How conceited. Does he seriously expect that anyone'll do the same mistakes he did ? There are other non Japanese circles that do just fine. This better be an isolated case. I don't consider everything that happened  up until now as a waste of time since it was very educative and interesting, but it needs to end, it's starting to become ridiculous.

Yeah, that projection is part of his charming personality, don'cha know? He tends to apply his opinions in a way that makes it seem like everyone shares it. Ergo, because he somehow couldn't comprehend "don't attempt to commercialize a fanmade project", he believes no one else will and feels obligated to give "advice". So yes, he expects people will commit the same mistakes he did.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: akj on February 05, 2015, 07:39:13 PM
As a personal aside, it has continually and utterly baffled me whenever someone complains about how MotK isn't consistent with its opinions/advice.

*NEWS FLASH* MotK is not a hive mind.

Everyone here has their own opinions, and sometimes differences exist.
MotK isn't policed to the point where only one narrative exists.

I have to applaud Helepolis and his monstrous patience in dealing with Saijee and his cohorts/sockpuppets, he really did try to do all he could to resolve the situation peacefully without it coming to this.
Seriously though, we've got to appreciate the incredible dedication, persistence, and patience shown by Helepolis, and others who have helped bridge the Japanese-English gap by providing translations and summations to both sides.
(Off the top of my head: Drake, cuc, monhan, N-Forza, MangasiNP, Flandre Scarlet, persceaux of tohosubs)
We've all got our own bullshit in life to deal with, so props to them for taking time out of their day.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 05, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
As a personal aside, it has continually and utterly baffled me whenever someone complains about how MotK isn't consistent with its opinions/advice.

*NEWS FLASH* MotK is not a hive mind.

Everyone here has their own opinions, and sometimes differences exist.
MotK isn't policed to the point where only one narrative exists.

Yeah, but the thread was attempting to present unified advice. This was an exception. There were comments that basically claimed MotK was a huge fandom influence and a big deal and so on, so I think a unified attempt was warranted.

Yeah, that projection is part of his charming personality, don'cha know? He tends to apply his opinions in a way that makes it seem like everyone shares it. So because he somehow couldn't comprehend "don't attempt to commercialize a fanmade project", he believes no one else will and feels obligated to give "advice". So yes, he expects people will commit the same mistakes he did.

Somebody will. Inevitably someone won't do their research. But this is kind of irrelevant on my part I guess.

This is something that's bugged me this entire time. In the context of these forums, I've seen more people tell users to lay off the insults than, well, actual insults. What was there other than this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1159537.html#msg1159537) (and a couple of the posts right after it) that I missed?

It was the amount of "minor" insulting that got me. Calling him an idiot, copious use of swearwords by actual authorities here, and the general "you're going to fail and this project is bullshit" downer statements shoved onto him. Not like "go die in a fire you fucking scum of the earth, I will find you and kill you" stuff that happens elsewhere on the internet. But whatever.

The whole IGG mess is over, I fail at seeing the rationale behind their new video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D1ioyC0Ljk). Did something noteworthy happened and lead them to make it while they were probated ? Why even go back ?

Saijee needs to understand that FSS's case is not the biggest deal ever. The moment they joined the Touhou doujin scene, they pretty much stood on the same level as, y'know, thousand of other Touhou circles, including those who also got into some trouble... with the difference being the fact that they thought it was a fantastic idea to make a big fuss out of their problems and blame their mistakes on the guidelines instead of, like, actually solving the problem or something. Seriously, it shouldn't've turned this big of a mess...

By this point, Saijee is NOT considered to be in the Touhou community anymore : if he wants to start a flame war, then he is the one who'll get burned. Does he still thinks he boasts of a solid support or something ?! He needs to face the fact that he doesn't have the same support he had back around the time he started developing TSSB, and that most of the support he had was mainly because of Touhou... if he's gonna leave the Touhou doujin scene, then he better stay away : just leave Touhou alone. Regardless of what FSS did, they did it as "outsiders" to Touhou : just consider them as trolls like any other, the arguments they keep giving have pretty much been countered anyway...

I guess the guy took the criticism and all the negativity too personally... he might've felt cheated and thinks what he is doing right now is some sort of holy crusade or something, while in fact he is just making himself look bad... He is NOT the spotlight anymore... he needs to get it over with... Seriously, FSS is only one case amongst many others...Wat. How conceited. Does he seriously expect that anyone'll do the same mistakes he did ? There are other non Japanese circles that do just fine. This better be an isolated case. I don't consider everything that happened  up until now as a waste of time since it was very educative and interesting, but it needs to end, it's starting to become ridiculous.
That or Saijee has multiples personalities and Shinesbright turned out to be one of his alter ego This would have been a fun puzzle to solve, only if he/they was/were not banned lol

Well, this is the point. He's *not* part of the community...so he can basically do what he wants. If he has been exiled already, nothing to stop him from burning bridges. Unless people stoop to his level and doxx him, he can just duck out of his old name and circle identity, re-emerge elsewhere, and given the level of research and conspiracy he can do, he probably won't be outed. I imagine he can cover his tracks. So yeah, this doesn't hurt him at all if he doesn't give a fuck what we think. And we've washed our hands of him, so...he's washing his hands of any way we matter to him.

Why do the nasty vengeance video? Because yeah, he's fucking bitter and pissed. He feels like he's gotten cheated out of something, regardless of whether he's right or not. He had a plan, it was succeeding, people stopped him one way or the other, and now he's striving for any way to feel like he got a victory out of *something* here. If he can strike a blow back, he'll have saved face in his own mind and feel like he leveled the playing field somewhat. He exposed Ruw and dug for a vaguely strung-together conspiracy theory backed up by shallow but present evidence (remember, the best lie is the truth), removing the cognitive dissonance in his head and "confirming" that everyone really was just trying to fuck him over. So now, he can feel like he was okay, he was doing a reasonable thing, and everyone just shat on him, so he's going to take his ball and go home while he's "ahead." I don't think this is about arrogance or conceitedness; I think it's about self-perceived humiliation and his ability to do something that alleviates the pain of feeling totally trampled on. Regardless of whether his perspective is true or not, he wants a "positive" piece of closure for himself.

I admit I do like me some armchair psychoanalysis and have been playing too much Phoenix Wright, but that's my $0.02 on the situation.


The Ruw reveal would have been hilarious had this been in a movie and the information all been fake of course. "THOSE GLASSES! THESE GLASSES! THOSE ARM HAIRS! THESE ARM HAIRS!" XD It...I cracked up.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 05, 2015, 07:56:31 PM
It was the amount of "minor" insulting that got me. Calling him an idiot, copious use of swearwords by actual authorities here, and the general "you're going to fail and this project is bullshit" downer statements shoved onto him.

That's to be expected when you begin to lose patience with someone like him.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 08:02:14 PM
Yeah, that projection is part of his charming personality, don'cha know? He tends to apply his opinions in a way that makes it seem like everyone shares it. Ergo, because he somehow couldn't comprehend "don't attempt to commercialize a fanmade project", he believes no one else will and feels obligated to give "advice". So yes, he expects people will commit the same mistakes he did.
The thing is, this sentiment is not foreign to western fan circles. Western fanwriters and fanartists understand the unspoken rule that the line between cute homage and potential legal threat that needs to be quashed lies on the commercialization. Only the most zealous of rights holders have gone after groups for merely referencing their IP, and there's been more than a few examples where fans have secured licenses to IPs for making fanworks usually with the stipulation that any money over x gets royalties or that they can't sell it for more than cost. Most are more than willing to work with fangroups, to the point of even donating their own tools or expertise to help out. He really is in the minority of minorities to think that just because ZUN didn't directly state he couldn't do it, he was free to do whatever he wanted with it. Everyone else who's a fancreator in any fandom understands fully the importance of creative control staying with the actual creator, along with the legal rights that go along with it.

The whole point of a fanwork is to make it for the love of the fandom, not to cash in on the members of that fandom. FSS immediately shifted his motives to the latter when he pushed for crowdfunding. Whether it was before or after he saw the money come in, only he could tell us, but regardless his actions afterwards made it clear it stopped being a fanwork after that. Nobody begrudges people who want to make a bit of profit, or at least cover the costs of their time and effort to make fanworks. As someone who now spends the vast majority of their con income in the artists alley, I find greater joy in supporting independent artists who make fanart and stuff of the things I love than buying commercialized crap. Most of my plushies are fan plushies, and I have tons of prints I've purchased (and need to frame and hang up :[).

Nobody was trying to tell him he couldn't monetize his project, just that he couldn't commercialize it. ZUN has legit concerns about digital distribution and whether he retains IP rights or not, and it doesn't help that the laws tend to be very vague on that. Plus doujins are meant to be a do everything yourself affair, including the point of sale, and it feels... scummy... to resort to crowdfunding to support an idea before a product is even made. We shouldn't do that to our own, and that's what hurt the most.

It was the amount of "minor" insulting that got me. Calling him an idiot, copious use of swearwords by actual authorities here, and the general "you're going to fail and this project is bullshit" downer statements shoved onto him. Not like "go die in a fire you fucking scum of the earth, I will find you and kill you" stuff that happens elsewhere on the internet. But whatever.
People are free to give criticism, and I agree I find more of the debbie downer type comments not useful, but at the same time people should be free to voice their opinions on it. As far as the harsh language though, that didn't come out until it became obvious that he was being a knucklehead. Tensions were high for legitimate reasons, he was doing a lot of potential harm to not only himself, but the WTC in general with his actions, and when he stopped listening to reason, and ignored pleas and more polite methods, harsher things tend to come out.

That being said, I've looked over the posts and 1) several mods actively monitored the thread and stepped in when things were getting truly hairy, and 2) the only actual swearwords I've found were from Edible in a PM to him and to be frank at that point I would have said the same thing. As far as the staff response to the situation I'm not sure how it could have been any more calm and professional than it was. I'm a very polite person unless you've actively annoyed me to the point where I have to punish you directly. Don't expect kid gloves at that point.

Also staff members are just as much members of the community as everyone else, and unless they're specifically acting in an official fashion (aka actually moderating), what they say is their own opinions, and I'm not in the business of regulating what people can and can't say. Hell, I wouldn't be admin if I suddenly had to watch every little thing I said lest it get construed as an official MotK stance (doesn't stop people from doing that, but I digress...). This is a volunteer op. None of us get paid to do this. We run the community as members of the community for the community, and while we tend to put on hats such as moderator or ambassador, we also are still members of this community.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Edible on February 05, 2015, 08:08:56 PM
the only actual swearwords I've found were from Edible in a PM to him and to be frank at that point I would have said the same thing

Hey.  Hey.

Hey hey hey.

Hey, hey.  Hey.  Hey.  Hey.

Hey.

Hey.

... Hey.

I also told him to shut the fuck up in that other thread. :colbert:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 08:11:00 PM
Oh I'm so sorry I missed that one, my apologies your grace :3
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Edible on February 05, 2015, 08:12:18 PM
Jeez.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tiamat on February 05, 2015, 08:37:09 PM
It was the amount of "minor" insulting that got me. Calling him an idiot,

Indeed. I'd even say it was a lot more than just a minor insult to idiots everywhere to call this guy an idiot.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 11:34:06 PM
People are free to give criticism, and I agree I find more of the debbie downer type comments not useful, but at the same time people should be free to voice their opinions on it. As far as the harsh language though, that didn't come out until it became obvious that he was being a knucklehead. Tensions were high for legitimate reasons, he was doing a lot of potential harm to not only himself, but the WTC in general with his actions, and when he stopped listening to reason, and ignored pleas and more polite methods, harsher things tend to come out.

Gotta agree with this. And even after some obv-troll behavior from Saijee rose to the surface, people like Drake, monhan, tohosubs, Helepolis et al. were still offering legit advice and guidance. To be honest I think these guys deserve thanks for giving the benefit of the doubt long after it was deserved. Saijee's hurt feelings, I'm less concerned about - in the balance, I think his shenanigans far outweigh whatever snippiness some people understandably displayed.

And if you want to see "minor insults" and people not being very nice, swing by the art board some time. Whole lotta toughlove goin' on there!
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 05, 2015, 11:40:13 PM
And if you want to see "minor insults" and people not being very nice, swing by the art board some time. Whole lotta toughlove goin' on there!
? AAA??
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 11:41:26 PM
Maybe things have changed, but yeah - AAA denizens traditionally did not hold back when it came to feedback.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 05, 2015, 11:50:08 PM
Maybe things have changed, but yeah - AAA denizens traditionally did not hold back when it came to feedback.
Helepolis goes way out of his way to make sure Rika's is a no drama zone. To the point I swear he works himself into a stroke trying to reason with people.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 05, 2015, 11:52:15 PM
So when do we start a IGG campaign for Hele? :colbert:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suikama on February 05, 2015, 11:54:48 PM
Maybe things have changed, but yeah - AAA denizens traditionally did not hold back when it came to feedback.
i thought you were talking about poolswimmer :derp:

if that place even still exists
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 06, 2015, 12:00:08 AM
Oh man, I haven't looked at Poosh in ages.

Looking at it now, it's in a way reassuring how little it's changed.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 12:05:45 AM
I'm not sure why I do this to myself but when I rewatch the video I feel like a fool because back when IGG was first brought up I honestly didn't give it any mind nor even knew what IGG was. In fact I never knew crowfunding was against doujin till it was brought up, I just had a personal hatred for kickstarter for certain reasons. (Damn you doublefine!)

Wait a second, I remember talking about wanting to help with the game and they asked me about banners and I wanted to help, but I never knew what the banners where for. I never got a reply to my question on how they wanted them to look like, now I realize it was for their IGG campaign. Oh god why didn't I knew?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Lishy1 on February 06, 2015, 12:06:47 AM
So, I hate to be "Ideas Guy", but why not MoTK just make our own "Touhou Smash"? With Blackjack, and Hookers!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzamClGfkI

A mod of Brawl, to be specific. Could be really great, especially if physics are altered.

And unlike that which shall not be named, a mod cannot be corrupted by commercialization.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 06, 2015, 12:12:27 AM
Maybe things have changed, but yeah - AAA denizens traditionally did not hold back when it came to feedback.
Out of curiosity I went and started at the back of AAA and made my way back to the front.
Everyone seemed to follow the: '____ seems off...' and '...but I liked ____' critique formula. Which is rather well-natured, compared to other places where you get ripped apart by sharp eyes and good intentions.
My gosh there were a crapton more music threads than there are now. On the other hand, people seemed to keep making new threads instead of collecting them in their own.
Running into old stuff feels weird. Like poprocks.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 06, 2015, 12:20:23 AM
Out of curiosity I went and started at the back of AAA and made my way back to the front.
Everyone seemed to follow the: '____ seems off...' and '...but I liked ____' critique formula. Which is rather well-natured, compared to other places where you get ripped apart by sharp eyes and good intentions.

Yeah you're probably right. I couldn't draw a straight line if you put a gun to my head so I admittedly only swung through AAA a handful of times. Invariably, due to reported posts, so, *~confirmation bias~* on my part there.

Also, pop rocks? I haven't heard those mentioned since people were all talking about how eating pop rocks and drinking Coke would make your intestines explode (NB: not actually true, but wow did that rumor have wheels).
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Zil on February 06, 2015, 12:30:48 AM
the "drama queens" acted pretty shitty sometimes, but they seem to have left
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 06, 2015, 12:41:59 AM
To go back to what TSO said above:
The thing is, this sentiment is not foreign to western fan circles. Western fanwriters and fanartists understand the unspoken rule that the line between cute homage and potential legal threat that needs to be quashed lies on the commercialization. Only the most zealous of rights holders have gone after groups for merely referencing their IP, and there's been more than a few examples where fans have secured licenses to IPs for making fanworks usually with the stipulation that any money over x gets royalties or that they can't sell it for more than cost. Most are more than willing to work with fangroups, to the point of even donating their own tools or expertise to help out. He really is in the minority of minorities to think that just because ZUN didn't directly state he couldn't do it, he was free to do whatever he wanted with it. Everyone else who's a fancreator in any fandom understands fully the importance of creative control staying with the actual creator, along with the legal rights that go along with it.
I've spoken to at least three japanese folks about this. Ruw understood right away that this was mostly FSS' problem in particular, but often I've seen the Japanese spectators giving the attempt to "understand" and saying that oh, doujin culture is something foreign to other countries so it's understandable that some people make dumb mistakes due to cultural differences and not knowing any better. While this overall is true, and the culture in Japan is definitely a difference, that isn't to say that the whole fundamental concept of doujin is something not present anywhere but Japan. It is certainly present in western game development along with fanbases that produce any sort of content. The doujin sentiment is present; we just don't have a name for it and don't often think of it as a solid construct. Our culture also tends to blur the line between doujin works, commercial works, and careers. This is why framing doujin works as "hobby" projects is fairly important. More to the point though, is that this is not an excuse for FSS' total lack of understanding, and isn't something that we should have to explain to people (and we almost never have to!). Having rules and guidelines is a different story, but saying "oh let's make a fanwork using so and so's IP and sell it to people! That's totally ok!" just has no such excuses whether that IP is legally protected and actively enforced or not.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ZXNova on February 06, 2015, 12:45:41 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

I wasn't there from the very beginning, but I was watching their videos on the development of Touhou Smash for a moderate amount of time I think. Iirc, I started following him around his 50th video. Him solidifying the mechanics of Touhou smash, the introduction of spellcards, the finishing of Sakuya, all the way up to now. I even left comments on his video and he quoted once because he was the kind of guy to answer everyone's questions at that time. I'm gonna be honest and have to say I really liked what he was doing and liked him too. I thought he was a cool guy. But then suddenly, all of this poop went down. I was really hoping that FSS was just making a simple mistake that can easily be rectified ya know. However events unfolded even deeper. When I heard FSS was approved by ZUN that was my last speck of hope that they will do the right thing. All I ever really wanted was for FSS to do the right thing you know. I wanted the best for them. And I'm sure many other people probably thought the same.

Ah well, all I can do is try to put this event behind us now right? I don't hate FSS, but I'm really disappointed. I still hope for them to do the right thing.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Uruwi on February 06, 2015, 12:49:58 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

I wasn't there from the very beginning, but I was watching their videos on the development of Touhou Smash for a moderate amount of time I think. Iirc, I started following him around his 50th video. Him solidifying the mechanics of Touhou smash, the introduction of spellcards, the finishing of Sakuya, all the way up to now. I even left comments on his video and he quoted once because he was the kind of guy to answer everyone's questions at that time. I'm gonna be honest and have to say I really liked what he was doing and liked him too. I thought he was a cool guy. But then suddenly, all of this poop went down. I was really hoping that FSS was just making a simple mistake that can easily be rectified ya know. However events unfolded even deeper. When I heard FSS was approved by ZUN that was my last speck of hope that they will do the right thing. All I ever really wanted was for FSS to do the right thing you know. I wanted the best for them. And I'm sure many other people probably thought the same.

Ah well, all I can do is try to put this event behind us now right? I don't hate FSS, but I'm really disappointed. I still hope for them to do the right thing.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: The Dratini Farmer on February 06, 2015, 12:54:31 AM
Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

From what I've been seeing, they're just digging themselves a deeper hole. If they want to cleanse themselves of this, they need to own up to it and not try to pawn it off. To me, the fact that they lashed out the way they did after everyone spent so much time trying to help them is making it really difficult to show them compassion. But there's still that tiny part of me that might give them that chance if they're serious about this.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 06, 2015, 12:57:49 AM
Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

Pretty much impossible to say. The Touhou community isn't a monolith. Of those who even know who FSS are, you have a spectrum ranging from supporters to detractors. What I do know is, once you've sufficiently and repeatedly demonstrated that you'll use the good-faith efforts of others to further your own gain through deception, your reputation is pretty much shot. Kind of like crying wolf one too many times. I honestly don't think FSS is even interested in making things right, but if they were, I'd say the chances are good they've used up all benefit of the doubt at this point anyway.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 01:01:01 AM
To go back to what TSO said above:I've spoken to at least three japanese folks about this. Ruw understood right away that this was mostly FSS' problem in particular, but often I've seen the Japanese spectators giving the attempt to "understand" and saying that oh, doujin culture is something foreign to other countries so it's understandable that some people make dumb mistakes due to cultural differences and not knowing any better. While this overall is true, and the culture in Japan is definitely a difference, that isn't to say that the whole fundamental concept of doujin is something not present anywhere but Japan. It is certainly present in western game development along with fanbases that produce any sort of content. The doujin sentiment is present; we just don't have a name for it and don't often think of it as a solid construct. Our culture also tends to blur the line between doujin works, commercial works, and careers. This is why framing doujin works as "hobby" projects is fairly important. More to the point though, is that this is not an excuse for FSS' total lack of understanding, and isn't something that we should have to explain to people (and we almost never have to!). Having rules and guidelines is a different story, but saying "oh let's make a fanwork using so and so's IP and sell it to people! That's totally ok!" just has no such excuses whether that IP is legally protected and actively enforced or not.
I think the big difference is that up until recent history, the fanart/fanfic world was a completely separate world than the general fandom. It also tends to be hugely majorly female. Not to bring in gender politics, but for the most part prior to recent nerddom history the visible fandoms were dominated by the purchasing of commercial paraphernalia in the West (comics, figures, toys, etc). Fanartists and fanfic writers just weren't there. Now with stronger integration of female members, you can see the rise of things such as fanarts and fanfics, along with other things like cosplay, as symbols of fandoms.

The closest parallel to fanfics/fanarts was the modding scene for video games (which was almost exclusively male dominated). Fangames were oftentimes modifications of existing games, rather than completely original works. There was a very cowboy "anything goes" kind of attitude towards IP, and you got notoriety for the amount of ego you had moreso than any actual talent. You could sell your mods at computer shows for the cost of the disks needed to distribute it, but they were essentially free to anyone. They were also almost exclusively released digitally via BBSes and Usenet and other early Internet communities (UMS maps anyone?). A start contrast to the very in-person Comiket. All of that is starting to blur together into the burgeoning indie gaming scene, with two wildly different value systems, so it's only natural there's going to be some teething problems. Eventually though, I imagine we'll settle into an equilibrium not unlike the doujin community, but with some uniquely Western quirks.

We don't quite have the same kind of institution that doujins represent, but at the same time the spirit is there.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ZXNova on February 06, 2015, 01:05:27 AM
Well at least they returned all of the money they got from the crowdfunding, right?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 01:07:49 AM
Nobody has ever confirmed to me whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 06, 2015, 01:10:50 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?
I thought the project was interesting ever since he posted a thread here discussing ideas, and left it alone until Touhoucon 2014 where he had a fairly decent-quality working pre-alpha. That assured me enough that they had the drive to see the project through and could feasibly accomplish it (their list of previous projects was not so convincing). This is why I've been so adamant in trying to help keep the project in line until they decided Touhou would be shed from it, even though I was very upset with how they were handling their crowdfunding situation. I saw definite promise and that much is enough to have not just written this off as a lost cause early on; this is why it's so infuriating that they're being so goddamned stupid with everything outside the game development itself. If they didn't have so much work done, there's no question that their campaign would have fell like a rock and it would have received little attention both critically and by fans.

Nobody has ever confirmed whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.
If their word is to be trusted, many people should already have their money back and if they don't get it soon then they can communicate with FSS and IGG to fix that. We have quite a few members that put money in, so obviously we'll see sooner or later.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Kilgamayan on February 06, 2015, 01:15:39 AM
On the subject of refunds, I received a refund a few days ago without actively asking for it.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 01:19:07 AM
Thanks for chiming in on that o7
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 01:22:05 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

Never been a fan since I consider fan to be just shortened for fanatic, but I followed them since they started their thread. Seen the hate on the models and trying to defend that graphical fidelity wasn't important until later (which still surprises me that people are so adamant on getting the look of the game really good before the mechanics are even finished) and tried offering advice where I could on models. Everything seemed fine then, but wasn't sure if it would go far, looking at image results showed they had tried to post about TSSB on many websites but it never went very far till our forum.

Once they got their video showing moves and what not really made me believe it would work out! Then IGG happened, and the massive support it started getting felt to me like it went to their heads.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ExPorygon on February 06, 2015, 01:38:57 AM
Nobody has ever confirmed to me whether or not they got their money back for backing, but my understanding is that FSS was gonna only issue refunds on request. Even when a campaign is cancelled for being fraudulent IGG rarely if ever returns people's backings. IGG is a really scummy site but being forced a DMCA might have made them forcibly refund everyone though.
They never said that refunds needed to be requested. They in fact stated the exact opposite, with refunds being given automatically if you did not respond to their email. Though I still have not received any refund via my paypal, which is what I payed with. They said something along the lines of needing to wait 15 days after the campaign's conclusion to actually get the funds to pay people back but that was before the DMCA takedown.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pywackett-Barchetta on February 06, 2015, 01:52:26 AM
I have not yet received my refund through Paypal yet, either, but I've been hearing a steady stream of people receiving theirs, so it's likely not much longer.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 02:03:51 AM
They never said that refunds needed to be requested. They in fact stated the exact opposite, with refunds being given automatically if you did not respond to their email. Though I still have not received any refund via my paypal, which is what I payed with. They said something along the lines of needing to wait 15 days after the campaign's conclusion to actually get the funds to pay people back but that was before the DMCA takedown.
Huh ok, I must have misremebered that one.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: UTW on February 06, 2015, 03:01:21 AM
So, I hate to be "Ideas Guy", but why not MoTK just make our own "Touhou Smash"? With Blackjack, and Hookers!

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGzamClGfkI

A mod of Brawl, to be specific. Could be really great, especially if physics are altered.

And unlike that which shall not be named, a mod cannot be corrupted by commercialization.

It's already happening (hopefully) via a few users on reddit.

Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

<snip>

Ah well, all I can do is try to put this event behind us now right? I don't hate FSS, but I'm really disappointed. I still hope for them to do the right thing.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

I'm much the same as you. I started following midway through Sakuya's development and went back and watched all the devlog videos. I was intrigued and thought he had plenty of good ideas. But here we are.

Maybe to borderline fans who are really only aware of his side and don't know about all the drama or understand why the project was shut down. But to those like us in other more hardcore Touhou communities who are aware it seems he's persona non grata. It's not impossible, but it would take a lot for him to be accepted again. For starters, he needs to adopt some transparency, drop the pretense, maybe abandon Doujin Spirit, or at least learn to work with everyone again re: how to make it not suck and adhere to true "doujin spirit", etc. Personally, I don't think he'll ever make right. He's that delusional. But even if he does and is accepted again, most will treat any and all future FSS projects with a grain of salt, anyway.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: H4xolotl on February 06, 2015, 03:14:32 AM
How did Danmaku!! get dragged into this?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 06, 2015, 03:31:59 AM
Quote
How did Danmaku!! get dragged into this?
The short of it is, Saijee heard about the program being used to play Danmaku!! using Steam and somehow interpreted that to mean that Danmaku!! itself was distributed on Steam.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 03:43:26 AM
The short of it is, Saijee heard about the program being used to play Danmaku!! using Steam and somehow interpreted that to mean that Danmaku!! itself was distributed on Steam.

I am legit baffled at how the confusion even happened, it makes absolutely no sense.

uhhgg I'm reminded of how Danmaku!! was pronounced... really felt like he was being insulting about it. (I know he was after but the name in general.)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Lishy1 on February 06, 2015, 03:48:29 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

*raises hand*

I was a fan before this happened, much earlier before their Touhou Smash Bros. Project. Now I'm not too sure...

Their older works, like Glass Wing, were pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p3rg9WNCiY

It's a bit of a tragedy, because FromSoySauce was a very promising game developer, with a great portfolio, and awesome imagination. I don't think you can argue that Glass Wing isn't a very original and interesting game.

Unfortunately, he had to go and commit dev-suicide with this stupid Touhou Smash Bros project he obsessed over... I feel bad for the dude.

Do you think they will ever be cleansed of their sin in the eyes of the Touhou community?

It would certainly take a lot to earn back my respect. As a former fan of his work, I feel really betrayed.

What he did is more a crime to fans like me, more than the Touhou fanbase.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Sahgren on February 06, 2015, 04:52:02 AM
I can also say that I got a refund a couple days ago. I actually feel really bad about backing the project now; I didn't know much of anything about the project and just kinda assumed that he had gotten ZUN's permission to start the funding ahead of time. Guess it pays to look into that sort of thing before hand.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Validon98 on February 06, 2015, 04:55:41 AM
I've not been 100% following this whole mess (I can only describe it in the end as a mess) from the beginning, but... yeah, holy crap, I'm just amazed how deeply FSS dug itself a hole and just kept going. I was somewhat willing to let it go after the majority of the crap had been dealt with, but knowing that the people here on MotK who I KNEW were trying to be helpful and give friendly advice so Saijee and the rest could undo their mistakes were attacked and slandered in a clear "bite the hand that feeds" sort of move, I just have to say I'm glad they have dumped this project, and I never want to hear from them ever again.

I just feel sad about what happened. There were such high hopes for this entire project and then this whole trackwreck followed. At the very least, to everyone who got dragged into this, I'm glad you've all been able to deal with it as you had. \o/
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 06, 2015, 05:27:17 AM
The Danmaku!! thing is hilarious because it seems to be one of the things I said that they actually ended up sort of understanding, but they present it in the video as some sort of special snowflake case and then make up a scenario that obviously they think is ridiculous, when really it isn't ridiculous at all.

To get this straight, "you could make a chess game with Touhou characters as pieces and make it playable through a physics sandbox which is only available on Steam". Yes, as far as I can tell, this is entirely acceptable. It makes little sense for anyone to make such a thing the primary option for play since Tabletop Simulator in particular is expensive, and since nobody except TTS devs are getting money there isn't much incentive for anyone involved with the game to choose Steam anyways, but yes, that's a perfectly fine option. Danmaku!! only does it because it was low-effort to set up from a technical perspective and it lets people play across the internet, not because it was a truly good option. Simply put, such a game is not part of TTS, nor is it advertised in or alongside TTS, or anything of the sort. It's a game that's only available by being interested in the source in some respect... unless you distribute the resources for that custom game in wide-reaching channels itself (i.e. the resources that make up the game are still subject to the same rules as if it were a complete standalone product). There's no stopping anyone from making generic content like images and 3D models and then telling people you can import them into X program and do fancy things with it. This is also assuming you aren't charging to download those resources.

For another example, say Touhou Danmakufu wasn't related to Touhou whatsoever and wasn't free. You could make scripts for it, draw Touhou characters for sprites, and make a little game using Danmakufu. In the same way as above, it's a bit silly since you'd be offering your script for free but the platform costs money, which is prohibitive for any audience you're trying to get. But it's still an appropriate method to create and distribute.

If anyone from FSS is reading, here's your answer, I guess?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 06, 2015, 06:03:40 AM
Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.

Er anyway. I am pretty sure the only way for FSS to redeem themselves to totally kill their current online identities and make new unknown ones. The Internet never forgets, and a thousand hells hath no fury like angry fans on the tubes. FSS is screwed, forever, in the Touhou fandom. They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails. They will be used as examples till kingdom come. Hell, it's even on the Touhou wiki. Immortalized.

I did get my refund though.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 06, 2015, 06:05:03 AM
Can a noob ask for a summary of the White Canvas incident? :derp:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 06, 2015, 06:14:45 AM
Can a noob ask for a summary of the White Canvas incident? :derp:
Good ol' partner White Canvas start distributing Touhou goodies without permission, got their asses handed legally  :V (that's the gist of it. Oversummarized anyway...)

Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.

Er anyway. I am pretty sure the only way for FSS to redeem themselves to totally kill their current online identities and make new unknown ones. The Internet never forgets, and a thousand hells hath no fury like angry fans on the tubes. FSS is screwed, forever, in the Touhou fandom. They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails. They will be used as examples till kingdom come. Hell, it's even on the Touhou wiki. Immortalized.

I did get my refund though.
Well, he got (in)famous.

I don't really believe the GS card game was very grave though, only expectations that were not met.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: [Y]oukai [J]esus on February 06, 2015, 06:33:50 AM
this incident sounds as butthurt as when the koreans doxx'd our wc3 server
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 06, 2015, 06:37:45 AM
Ooh someone brought up criticism in AAA. Made a thread once, someone appeared and said I had no skill and drew like a shitty noob and was 100% full of assholery and bullshit. I never went back. (And no I do not draw like a shitty noob.) Can thus confirm potential ruthlessness.
I just checked out your 2 threads. Holy hell that's a train wreck. I feel like apologizing for your terrible experience. (Though he seems to have mellowed a bit(?))
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Blue on February 06, 2015, 07:49:53 AM
I kinda took a break from Touhou after Touhoucon until now, and coming back and seeing this mess is just...wow. The last time I looked at anything to do with TSSB or FSS was back in September, and after learning about what happened, I'm just really disappointed. The game was looking pretty good from the dev logs that I looked at yesterday after seeing this thread, and just having that potential squandered is pretty sad. I don't know, the way FSS conducted the entire crowdfunding and their reaction to what transpired after just seems so unreal, and the same goes for the ignorance that was displayed by them, just destroying all of the promise that the project had. I didn't watch all of that video that they put up, but from skipping through it, it just seems so...weird.

I'm actually really tired as I'm posting this, so if anything reads weirdly, it's that  :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: game2011 on February 06, 2015, 07:56:41 AM
Can I please get a clarification?  The game, now renamed Nansei Doujin Spirit, will feature original characters instead of Touhou ones, right?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 06, 2015, 08:00:52 AM
Was anyone here a fan of FSS before they went to... what they have become now?

Not a fan of FSS but I've been following this project since relatively on, when there was only Sakuya; I'm the guy who made him change his mind about his original Reimu "Americanized" main color scheme and had him replace it with her traditional colors while making her alt palettes reminiscent of Western flags, was overall pretty involved in giving feedback (albeit not on MoTK). So it's disheartening to see the project go down the route it did.


Can I please get a clarification?  The game, now renamed Nansei Doujin Spirit, will feature original characters instead of Touhou ones, right?

Yes, it should.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: [Y]oukai [J]esus on February 06, 2015, 09:23:01 AM
Is it alright for me to publicize this thread and the front page's newest article? Especially that new conversation that Heleo has just posted?
*I have asked around through pm for permission to post but there seems to be no respond so I am asking it again here, sorry =3= *

Is it you the person that posted it on facebook
Or is it a mod of ours? The way of writing sounds like it comes from the guy who banned the perpetrators of this incident yo
Coming from the touhou fanpage
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Peachems on February 06, 2015, 09:24:14 AM
I was pretty interested in the beginning and followed all of their updates. All I can say now is that I'm really, really disappointed.  :(
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Aya Reiko on February 06, 2015, 09:26:26 AM
They will go down in history with White Canvas and the GS card game as epic fails.
Um...  What was the GS card game?  I've heard of Touhou Ginfuritsu, but I doubt that's what you're talking about here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 06, 2015, 09:56:09 AM
Um...  What was the GS card game?  I've heard of Touhou Ginfuritsu, but I doubt that's what you're talking about here.
GS System (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/18592227/touhou-project-ft-gs-system/description), a Touhou trading card game project that was crowdfunding via Kickstarter before shutting down following talks with Team Shanghai Alice.
Saijee extensively used this project early on to try and push his own crowdfunding as okay, with potentially made up stories that he "spoke with the people behind the GS System project" and that they gave him a "much different story" than what is written on the Kickstarter, namely the following:

Quote from: GS System
We, and Team Shanghai Alice, have concluded that Kickstarter is not an appropriate method regarding production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project. The reason for this is because receiving funds before production is considered an investment, and a method like this can not yet be recognized with the production of dōjinshi materials for Touhou Project.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Zerviscos on February 06, 2015, 10:54:57 AM
Just to remind ppl that Doujin is supposed to be self-funded self-published, not crowdfunded.

Comparing Doujin circles during Comiket, and Reitaisai, FSS will have made more money for a very mediocre game.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: FLASH on February 06, 2015, 01:52:59 PM
GS System (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/18592227/touhou-project-ft-gs-system/description), a Touhou trading card game project that was crowdfunding via Kickstarter before shutting down following talks with Team Shanghai Alice.
Saijee extensively used this project early on to try and push his own crowdfunding as okay, with potentially made up stories that he "spoke with the people behind the GS System project" and that they gave him a "much different story" than what is written on the Kickstarter, namely the following:



Wow, man one thing i will say about it is that i really liked their artwork on the card!

since that thing seem to have gone down the drain irrevocably, do anyone know if there is still a place where we can get their artworks (preferably the whole character pictures i mean, not the cards themselves)
or buy them??  :derp: i will buy them legit if i can, but i doubt it's possible given that this whole thing is cancelled anyway...

sorry i know it's a bit off topic  :V feel free to delete and answer me in a PM (or not at all xD ) if it's too off topic... :/
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: JxMarik on February 06, 2015, 02:44:26 PM
Finally managed to watch the whole vid... Wow, how lame.

With all this hate he gathered around him, there's a possibility he'll try to pull out a Phil Fish soon, claiming he has been doxxed by MotK or Kourindou members to erase evidence, delete his nansei doujin spirit game data, steal his bank account's informations and publish naked pictures of Shines Bright online.

Except nobody will care or trust him anymore.

PS: Couldn't Shines be his or one of his brothers' girlfriend? That could explain the IP thing.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: monhan on February 06, 2015, 02:48:31 PM

Wow, man one thing i will say about it is that i really liked their artwork on the card!

since that thing seem to have gone down the drain irrevocably, do anyone know if there is still a place where we can get their artworks (preferably the whole character pictures i mean, not the cards themselves)
or buy them??  :derp: i will buy them legit if i can, but i doubt it's possible given that this whole thing is cancelled anyway...

sorry i know it's a bit off topic  :V feel free to delete and answer me in a PM (or not at all xD ) if it's too off topic... :/

One of, if not the only, artist of those pictures is Saito Yukihiro.
I only managed to find some of his Touhou pics on Tumblr, but that's something I guess
http://for-serenity-mod.tumblr.com/post/51583685825/saito-yukihiro-touhou
http://juliechan20.tumblr.com/post/54678063325/saito-yukihiro-touhou

It seems like Saijee is moving on with his Doujin Spirit game, and I don't see any respond to this disastrous video from him. Whatever, I guess, he already said he won't. It'll just be a waste of time to bother him anymore.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Alcoraiden on February 06, 2015, 03:28:56 PM
I just checked out your 2 threads. Holy hell that's a train wreck. I feel like apologizing for your terrible experience. (Though he seems to have mellowed a bit(?))

I truly and deeply appreciate the concern about it. :)


Saijee said he wouldn't comment, yeah. He has closed his end of the debate for good from what I can tell, though every time he claims things are over, THEN THEY AREN'T OVER I DON'T EVEN KNOW *falls off chair*

The girlfriend thing does seem plausible to me.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: game2011 on February 06, 2015, 03:56:17 PM
Since he's no longer making a Touhou game, do we still need to care about him?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 03:59:24 PM
I can only hope that if they do get done with the game that it will be in good taste. (Aside from the name) still not sure if he is gonna try and teach people about doujin in his story mode, and I pray he leaves us out of it.

Isn't there something law-like for slander if its in a game that's pretty clear who it is?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 06, 2015, 04:04:03 PM
Since he's no longer making a Touhou game, do we still need to care about him?
So long as he doesn't get involved with Touhou, then the appropriate and reasonable answer is "NO". It's another thing if he goes on the offensive again (It'll be trollbait though, it's not worth your time).

As for the new game he is developing, paying him attention or not is your choice and yours alone.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 04:28:17 PM
Is it you the person that posted it on facebook
Or is it a mod of ours? The way of writing sounds like it comes from the guy who banned the perpetrators of this incident yo
Coming from the touhou fanpage
I'm the banhammer and I didn't post it on FB. But yes you can link to it. Sorry I didn't mean to overlook your post D:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 04:37:56 PM
Sigh. Their new video for NS Doujin Spirit has them talking about wanting to add indie characters if they can. Doujin spirit... indie characters. Not sure if he really understands words.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 06, 2015, 04:51:18 PM
I can only hope that if they do get done with the game that it will be in good taste. (Aside from the name) still not sure if he is gonna try and teach people about doujin in his story mode, and I pray he leaves us out of it.
If they are going to make the game educationnal about what doujin culture is, then it becomes pretty hard to picture how things'll turn out. There are educational games that are legitimately good, but some are fairly awkward. The only other game that uses the mechanics of another game and tries to be educationnal (like in their case, I presume) that first comes to my mind would be an m&m's (?!) game that-somehow-involves-mathematics (?!!!!) of questionable quality (see for yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW6TEHGHKUg)) : it's... weird. To be honest, I can't picture how they'll make a fighting game that is also educationnal, especially if it's about a theme they misunderstood. I'm not gonna say it'll turn good or bad, I ain't no prophet, but there are seriously better options than this IMO. I'm still curious about how it'll turn out, though.

Isn't there something law-like for slander if its in a game that's pretty clear who it is?
Not sure if I understood your question or not, but long thing short, there are no problems with references, parodies, "hommages" and the likes : They are pretty much making Sakuyas out of Dio Brandos here (bear with this until you get a technical answer from someone else). And as far as the use of characters from other franchises go, quite frankly, if they get into some trouble again we don't have to get involved, it'll be their own problem.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pywackett-Barchetta on February 06, 2015, 04:55:47 PM
Not sure if he really understands words.
That's it. That's the thread, right there.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 06, 2015, 05:00:39 PM
I highly doubt you should be worried about his "educational game". It is obviously a bitter hatred idea to trollbait, nothing else. Nobody is going to take him serious any more after what has happened. The only ones remaining are the heel-licking and misinformed fans. And it is their own choice eventually, not our responsibility any more. We're not going to go around policing the internet and lowering ourselves to his level. His video was a huge mud fling, and now he is sheltering in a bunker. It doesn't matter any more what he does from this point on. We're done with their childish acts, that video was the final straw and we've taken the required actions against it.

We've already locked down his accounts + his thread. He is simply not welcome any more. And Helvetica's announcement on the front page is our message to the eastern and western fans. Ruw-san has been informed also through multiple ways, we can't do much else than highlight.

We don't need to deal with his ignorance any more in the Touhou fandom. He will never be able to return to it after this reputation damage. Which is a good thing anyway, he wasn't a Doujin developer with a doujin mindset to begin with.

I wouldn't be worried too much, of course personal disapprovals are being shared here too.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 06, 2015, 06:33:00 PM
Is it you the person that posted it on facebook
Or is it a mod of ours? The way of writing sounds like it comes from the guy who banned the perpetrators of this incident yo
Coming from the touhou fanpage
Sorry I am late; didn't notice your post, sorry and howdy '3'
I was the one who post it onto FB... I am just a lurker here on this forum who likes going around reporting stuffs from both sides and repost it without context to warp the truths fitting to my personal agenda
*sarcasm*

Anyhow, aside from that, it seems like this isn't exactly the forum issue; but MoTk's Flandre5carlet and my personal facebook account has been repeatedly reported by an anonymous just a few hours ago (Flandre got 18 reports; I've got 4). The reporter go through our entire profile from the past and mark any picture that can be interpret as inappropriate for facebook in the loosest of senses (for my case) and random pictures in general (for Flandre's case)
While I am not sure who else was reported aside from us... but what I can say is that both facebook account does bear a presence quite prominently in *that video* and we also frequent FSS facebook page to give our 2cents
...while I am not exactly making any allegations here... it could be just a coincidence both of our accounts got spam reported at the same time; or it could just be some fervent supporters of a certain indie circle watched the video and decide to play vigilante... or it could be...
 The wild ride never ends :3
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 06, 2015, 06:57:47 PM
Tl;dw videos as arguments, doxxing, harrassment... it's like I'm expecting to hear any minute something like "actually it's about ethics in game journalism doujin works".
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 06, 2015, 07:03:18 PM
MoTk's Flandre5carlet and my personal facebook account has been repeatedly reported by an anonymous just a few hours ago (Flandre got 18 reports; I've got 4).

Can confirm. In total, I got 23 pictures reported at random for "nudity or pornography" (http://i.imgur.com/OuLjigc.png), none of which could ever possibly fall under those conditions.

They also reported two pictures of my cat for... "promoting graphic violence." (http://i.imgur.com/UJSQi9L.jpg)

While I'm not saying that there is any link with this, I do find it weird that it happened both to Paz and I at the same time, considering both of us have appeared in the video, as well as relatively often discussing this matter on FSS and the Touhou pages. With that said, this is a bit off topic, I reckon.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 06, 2015, 07:14:59 PM
I dunno, encouraging attacks on MotK members isn't that off topic if that's what is going on. Btw, what do those FB reports actually do?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 07:17:58 PM
If the stuff is deemed inappropriate you can get flagged and blocked from posting on FB for some time and sometimes your account completely blocked.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 06, 2015, 07:18:51 PM
If for whatever reason your pictures do get removed because the stuff is deemed inappropriate by whomever reviewed the report, then you can get post blocked for a period of time; at worst, your account may also get entirely disabled in the case of repeated offense. So mass reporting in such a fashion is an effort to try and get someone deleted.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 06, 2015, 07:20:55 PM
Ah, so the reports are actually reviewed rather than beong blind and just take action blindly. That's good to hear.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 06, 2015, 07:29:49 PM
Ah, so the reports are actually reviewed rather than beong blind and just take action blindly. That's good to hear.

Lol so its better than YouTube at least.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 07:30:46 PM
Ah, so the reports are actually reviewed rather than beong blind and just take action blindly. That's good to hear.
There's a lot of double standards though (like allowing beheading videos but banning pictures of women breastfeeding :v). Still it's mostly a manual review process.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 06, 2015, 07:31:22 PM
Quote
it's like I'm expecting to hear any minute something like "actually it's about ethics in game journalism doujin works".
(http://s14.postimg.org/3q82a9axp/ethics_doujin.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3q82a9axp/)

All this talk of people attacking one-another's FaceBook accounts over their video is sad. Can FaceBook take action against someone who spams fake reports? I hope so. The comments on their video make it sound like the remaining people are just eating out of their hand and unwilling to consider any perspective other than FSS's. Obviously they don't represent the WTC and aren't worth worrying over but the backlash is pretty disgusting behavior on their part.....

I wish Paz and Flandre luck with this. You guys don't deserve this crap. =/
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 06, 2015, 07:33:50 PM
No worries, none of the reports went through anyway, so no harm done. At least so far.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 06, 2015, 07:46:22 PM
There's a lot of double standards though (like allowing beheading videos but banning pictures of women breastfeeding :v). Still it's mostly a manual review process.
Ah, the line between free speech and obscene is very blurry indeed.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 06, 2015, 08:12:21 PM
The dude who reported the cat picture was obviously a dog person  :V (that or the internet standards went pretty damn high)

It's really cute that someone wants to play Zorro, but Anon needs to realize that he doesn't make anything better but make FSS and their supporters look even worse...  anyway, if Anon's reports are fruitless, then that's that. Case closed. I am not sure if Zorro roleplayers who went the wrong way are trolls or not, but Anon sure ain't any better.

Next troublemaker, come in  :V

There's a lot of double standards though (like allowing beheading videos but banning pictures of women breastfeeding :v). Still it's mostly a manual review process.
Perhaps educational and cultural assets are taken into account in this ? I believe "faces of death", which showcase death in pretty much every angle and without censorship, is AVAILABLE ON YOUTUBE WITHOUT AGE RESTRICTION (friendly warning : don't be curious about this, I only took it as an example) but mainly because it's a documentary. That or some videos were simply NOT reported.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: ZXNova on February 06, 2015, 10:11:09 PM
The dude who reported the cat picture was obviously a dog person  :V (that or the internet standards went pretty damn high)

Perhaps educational and cultural assets are taken into account in this ? I believe "faces of death", which showcase death in pretty much every angle and without censorship, is AVAILABLE ON YOUTUBE WITHOUT AGE RESTRICTION (friendly warning : don't be curious about this, I only took it as an example) but mainly because it's a documentary. That or some videos were simply NOT reported.

Now that's just really petty now. Reporting pictures for no reason.

Also, I can confirm that videos of death are indeed allowed on YouTube. Uh, let's just say I saw someone accidently kill themself doing parcore [?] (It was a fails video, and it showcased a gif that I saw before and knew that the person was dead, but it isn't apparent),  and another case of Taliban executions. (This was an 'educational' video) Also 'sex' education videos are allowed on YouTube. So yeah...
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 06, 2015, 10:16:43 PM
I always thought those execution videos were covered under concepts of freedom of expression of religion.

It's the only thing that kept it from being obscene in legal definition.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: helvetica on February 06, 2015, 10:24:20 PM
That's an argument for a different thread (which I don't mind having), but a lot of that has to do with how Americans have a backwards view on the obscenity of violence vs the obscenity of the human body.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 07, 2015, 12:20:04 AM
(http://s14.postimg.org/3q82a9axp/ethics_doujin.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3q82a9axp/)

(http://i.imgur.com/vSwCsHJ.gif)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Zerviscos on February 07, 2015, 04:05:09 PM
This is why I steered clear from this thing. I knew something was bad from the start, making a very mediocre game that needed funding that can probably compete against Unreal Tournament 1999.
It's times like this I'm glad to be part of the lighter fanbase of this community.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Eigerblade on February 08, 2015, 01:51:51 AM
I still dont understand which privacy law is FSS referencing to regarding the requests to show us the email from Ruw. Kinda hypocritical since he tried to smear bad name on a lot of people by showing people PMs and names publicly..

He said that showing emails or PM is not allowed unless 140 days have passed, or the messages are reworded slightly (hence the edits in that video)

I did a quick search on laws regarding email privacy, and it only states not to disclose emails with sensitive information or if the sender personally requested it not to be disclosed.

I asked which privacy law is he referring to in his FSS' facebook, and he seems to ignore it now. Any of you know if there really is a privacy law like he said, or if it is juat another excuse?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 08, 2015, 02:11:57 AM
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17884.msg1159582.html#msg1159582

He had linked to this page earlier.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Eigerblade on February 08, 2015, 02:54:34 AM
That is the site I found as well, but I got a different impression on the law.
Right above the passage quoted by Saijee, it is written that
"Disclosure of contents of e-mail by the recipient is not a crime, unless there were disclosure of classified material to unauthorized persons."
In short, as long as it does not contain any sensitive info, there is no reason for Saijee to be sued. I think Saijee is just using the slightest hint of restriction as an excuse. Where did he get the "140 days limit" and "okay to disclose as long as it is reworded" he stated in the Facebook page anyway?


EDIT: I wonder if Japan has similar laws regarding disclosure of emails
EDIT2: He also said that the email he got is partially in English, so there is minimum chance of misinterpreting
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2015, 04:07:06 AM
Any possible misinterpretation is what he wants to continue being a moron.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Thaws on February 08, 2015, 10:18:59 AM
Wow... just wow

Haven't ventured into touhou related parts of the forum in a while, but I wouldn't have imagined something of this scale happened.

Hope the negative effect on MotK, members here, and RaNGe are minimized.
The community here is awesome and it's disheartening to see this happening to it.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Emerald Mint on February 08, 2015, 10:56:54 AM
Wow... just wow

Haven't ventured into touhou related parts of the forum in a while, but I wouldn't have imagined something of this scale happened.

Hope the negative effect on MotK, members here, and RaNGe are minimized.
The community here is awesome and it's disheartening to see this happening to it.
I say we're still going strong, maybe stronger than ever.

At first I thought the game had some potential, despite a few things I disagreed with. Then came the crowdfunding incident and his attitude, despite how nice everyone was as possible.

Feeling sorry for those who are getting manipulated into the wrong ideas about this incident.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 08, 2015, 12:37:02 PM
It seems the video has been taken down.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 08, 2015, 01:52:31 PM
Guess again. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5dUbzRMwaI)

He just wanted to clear out the negative comments.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 08, 2015, 02:02:05 PM
Guess again. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5dUbzRMwaI)

He just wanted to clear out the negative comments.

Supposedly a reupload to clear out the names he left in. There's still plenty of names in, though.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Soul Devour on February 08, 2015, 02:04:40 PM
I love the disclaimer saying "if you're watching this version, someone other than FSS took the video down".
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Drake on February 08, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
meanwhile as many people have pointed out if you go to the original link it says "this video has been removed by the user" rather than any notice it would use for an actual takedown
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Miky200 on February 08, 2015, 02:24:00 PM
meanwhile as many people have pointed out if you go to the original link it says "this video has been removed by the user" rather than any notice it would use for an actual takedown
Then he reuploaded it to get rid of negative coments.He should stop oh well.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 08, 2015, 02:37:47 PM
It seems the video has been taken down.
At first I was hoping he has a realization of what he was doing, guess not... now I'm just hoping someone goes to torpedo his account just to put an end to old yeller here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: monhan on February 08, 2015, 02:54:57 PM
I love the disclaimer saying "if you're watching this version, someone other than FSS took the video down".
meanwhile as many people have pointed out if you go to the original link it says "this video has been removed by the user" rather than any notice it would use for an actual takedown
And that makes me start to burst out laughing.

Oh well, let's give it another look.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 08, 2015, 03:04:58 PM
I'd wonder why he didn't do a fake DMCA takedown considering it should be pretty easy on YT from what I remember, but that would be giving him too much credit at this point. :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 08, 2015, 03:14:25 PM
Haha oh wow.

Also, pretty safe to say at this point that FSS is following this thread.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 08, 2015, 03:26:40 PM
Then he really should be aware that he's just digging himself deeper now. :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: AnonymousPondScum on February 08, 2015, 03:41:53 PM
This guy is more stubborn than a cockroach.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pywackett-Barchetta on February 08, 2015, 03:42:33 PM
meanwhile as many people have pointed out if you go to the original link it says "this video has been removed by the user" rather than any notice it would use for an actual takedown
I want to say I can't believe they'd do something that pointless.

I want to.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 08, 2015, 03:47:47 PM
Oh my goodness, are you serious? He couldn't handle the backlash so he reuploaded it?! So instead of actually taking those negative comments into consideration and making a better video to rectify the situation, this is what he'd rather do.

What will reuploading the same crap video accomplish?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 08, 2015, 03:48:55 PM
Haha. Someone in a reply to the first comment reposted the comments from the previous video. So much for that.

I'm not sure what FSS expects at this point. That nobody knows they're dishonest and that their inflammatory video isn't going to draw an immense amount of negative feedback? I'd really love to know what the plan is here. I'd think anyone trying to succeed as a company/team/whatever would avoid drawing this sort of attention in the first place. Or at the very least put their grievances (imagined or otherwise) in a more constructive form than this.

But they did what they did. And when they had the opportunity to just delete the video and leave this in the past like most of us were ready to do after our initial outrage, they just put it back up with no significant changes. Guys, this was your opportunity to make yourselves at least sound credible by summing up your 25 minutes of hand-biting by "We have our differences with the people who were involved in TSSB and chose to put that period of our game's development behind us." 25 minutes respectfully condensed down into less than 25 seconds!

Well, whatever. Children will be children.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 08, 2015, 03:52:35 PM
Then he reuploaded it to get rid of negative coments.He should stop oh well.
lol he's gonna have a lot of reuploading to do if he  wants to clean the upcoming negative comment storm, not to mention the dislikes. How desperate, haha.
btw I bet Shinesbright is the one who liked their video

@FSS people lurking on MotK : Guys, stop it, it's pathetic. You have no credibility anymore. Instead of recycling the same crap over and over again, either go on with your new game (lol) or upload an apology video and admit your faults. You're the villains here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 08, 2015, 03:53:43 PM
btw I bet Shinesbright is the one who liked their video
Or himself-
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Lishy1 on February 08, 2015, 03:56:30 PM
Look, FSS, please stop trying to cover your butts with arrogant PR videos, and just make a simple apology already.

As a former fan, from way before Touhou Smash, this is incredibly painful to watch, and it's really not fair to people who use to support your works.

Bottom line, you pissed off a lot of people. It doesn't matter how strong your argument is, you still upset many people. And you wont leave them alone, because you keep dragging this out.

Just make a simple apology, and be on with it.  Yeesh...

This is like something Sheldon Cooper would do, possibly worse? You're acting like a sociopath.

Keep pushing it, and you might piss off Anonymous. You do not want to piss off Anonymous.  I am giving you friendly advice as a former FSS fan: Don't piss off Anonymous.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 08, 2015, 04:07:53 PM
Sadly I think it's pretty safe to say he's gone off the deep end.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Suspicious person on February 08, 2015, 04:15:24 PM
Little bonus :
Quote
MotK has shown to have no problem deleting or altering public posts as they see fit.

Suuuuuuuuuure, Saijee. Suuuuuuure. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D1ioyC0Ljk)
Trying to demonize the other party to look like the righteous one ? Why not. They seriously go from immature to downright malicious... Gotta applaud youtube folks for their fast reaction in this one...

Sadly I think it's pretty safe to say he's gone off the deep end.
More like aiming for a new record.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Eigerblade on February 08, 2015, 04:19:11 PM
Although all the anons at that /jp/ thread hates what FSS is doing right now, I don't think anonymous will even care about this fiasco.
Seriously though, if they just reuploaded and said that it is to fulfill several requests to remove their names, that would be so much better than saying "our video is taken down by the big bad bullies".
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Daya on February 08, 2015, 04:20:02 PM
I really hate to make comparisons of this nature, but this is starting to feel like history is repeating itself with the Phil Fish. (I hope this is okay to reference this) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Fish)

I wanted Tokiko so bad. Maybe with even my RP group's headcanon of an SCP Agent or something (allowable via creative commons).

I can chalk up one thing if they said, 'okay oops' and move on. Ignorance for the most part would have been fine. This is not. I even had to redact my former support with everyone, telling those I said "okay nevermind, don't support these guys, due to x reason" and apologizing profusely.

I feel just dirty from supporting them. I really did, I promoted the ever daylights out of them and had to pass something around to go 'okay here's the posts, here's the problem, read for yourself.'
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Colticide on February 08, 2015, 04:28:59 PM
I get a feeling they are gonna turn into the devs of Slaughtering grounds, Day one Garrys incident, and The War Z, yes lets censor all negative comments because you don't like them. If I recall they claimed how very important YT comments were to them, well I guess that's a lie because once YT comments started going from praise to criticism we can see what he meant from his YT comment attention. I guess some devs just can't handle negativity, so they actively seek positive comments and try to keep their "fans" on their side to defend them. That's why I hate the word "fan", most people on YouTube who are "fans" just defend the people with out needing to know more because the person they are a "fan" of would never lie to them, right?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 08, 2015, 04:44:40 PM
I feel like a better description of this fiasco is Xbox1 with parts of Garry's Incident for flavor myself.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: AnonymousPondScum on February 08, 2015, 04:51:24 PM
I really hate to make comparisons of this nature, but this is starting to feel like history is repeating itself with the Phil Fish. (I hope this is okay to reference this) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Fish)

Oh please. At least Fish could find people who could compensate for his behavior when it counted.

FSS on the other hand probably couldn't be saved if God himself intervened.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 08, 2015, 06:06:57 PM
Just make a simple apology, and be on with it.  Yeesh...

I will say that if they do want to make an apology, they should do so in their own space. Anyone who cares will see it. Anyone who doesn't care, well, doesn't care.

Either way, I'm perfectly content with FSS going their own way and MotK going ours. We have our own fun to engage in separate from FSS. Here's hoping they can just let this shit go and get on with whatever it is they do.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Flandre5carlet on February 08, 2015, 11:33:00 PM
He's responding in the comments of the reupload, now.

He's feigning ignorance about doxxing, lol.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Omegahugger on February 08, 2015, 11:51:05 PM
Quote
He's responding in the comments of the reupload, now.
......Reading some of the replies just makes my head hurt. I hope nobody's expecting any appology or modifications to that video out of respect any time soon....

I look forward to when the front page will contain news of Touhou 15 or (....sigh....) ULiL. That will be a good day.... =)
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Pywackett-Barchetta on February 08, 2015, 11:56:57 PM
......Reading some of the replies just makes my head hurt. I hope nobody's expecting any appology or modifications to that video out of respect any time soon....

I look forward to when the front page will contain news of Touhou 15 or (....sigh....) ULiL. That will be a good day.... =)
That will be quite refreshing, indeed.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Savory on February 09, 2015, 12:48:28 AM
He's feigning ignorance about doxxing, lol.

Yeah, as if that will help him. Feigning ignorance doesn't make him innocent.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Mеа on February 09, 2015, 03:27:42 AM
Yeah, as if that will help him. Feigning ignorance doesn't make him innocent.
Well he could plead insanity
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 09, 2015, 05:57:45 AM
Saijee newest video uploaded from an alternate Youtube account
http://youtu.be/bAtM0cWgAWU
Some hit and miss points... but what baffle me the most (not exact quote, paraphrasing btw),
Quote
While Fumio and Ruw is the same person, Fumio didn't respond to our email but Ruw said it was just a misunderstanding and that we can continue on making the game... I feel it was just a bait from Ruw to have continue on making the game so that TSA can copyright claim strike us the second time
What the f***ing f***?  :V
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: MewMewHeart on February 09, 2015, 06:40:49 AM
Quote:
While Fumio and Ruw is the same person, Fumio didn't respond to our email but Ruw said it was just a misunderstanding and that we can continue on making the game... I feel it was just a bait from Ruw to have continue on making the game so that TSA can copyright claim strike us the second time
SAY WHAT!? Hold on I call shenanigans!!!!
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: 123EXDEEDEE on February 09, 2015, 07:28:08 AM
owh the 6th thread... i wish i can be as famous as him now...
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 09, 2015, 08:04:58 AM
I honestly still don't understand why he is so persistent about this video. He continues to commit  to fraud, doxxing and slander as long as those videos are there. There is no justification for it, no matter what pitty argument he brings up. I've read his ignorance about the doxxing questions, he is echoing that misinformed person called Roeben Vink from his previous videos and thinks that it is the truth.

He continues to drag innocent people into his personal sorrow and despair.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 09, 2015, 08:27:09 AM
Update: Mr Saijee sorry for the "bait" claim, saying that was just his thought back during that time and have added annotation explaining so
He has also removed the old description copying from the old video upon my inquiry (talking right now atm)
Since he is banned here, I am asking if he would like anything forwarded since he seems to want people to come and have a "fair discussion" with "no more accusations" and any accusation in that newest video wasn't intentional
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Eigerblade on February 09, 2015, 08:28:55 AM
His defense on the doxxing claims is more or less "I didn't know that publishing someone's public information is violating their privacy."

The problem is the consequences that would bring. He may not meant it, but doing that seems like he is painting a huge target on the people whose information is shown in the video.

Also, he stated that the new video is not meant to wash away comments, and said to look at the upload date of the new video. I dont understand how youtube works, but the new video is dated at 5th Feb.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 09, 2015, 08:44:28 AM
Have been talking to Mr. Saijee within the past half an hours or more
Here is his message to the group in relation to the purpose of the new video

Quote
"I would like to invite anyone and everyone to a civil discussion regarding anything about the events that transpired during TSSB. I'm willing to dedicate time to respond to all comments left in videos on this channel unscripted once or twice a week. Despite what anyone has to say, at the moment which I make any statement, I believe them to be true. I admit that this does not grantee that the statements themselves are correct, but they are completely honest. And if we can all be honest and civil about everything then I think that collectively we can figure out the true story; the chances are that both the story on the 24 min video and the way that it is described in other places both have issues that are incorrect."

also, for me personally... I think it is similar to the message above so might as well

Quote
I would like to invite you and your fb page to civil discussion on the ordeal "after the fact" so that we can try to collectively figure out what actually happened since our versions of the story are very different.
No more accusations, no more shouting, no more name calling. Just a conversation where everyone can have open discussion.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 09, 2015, 08:52:20 AM
Personally, I think he's a week too late for that. You can't simply hack up people's messages and expect them to trust you, especially after the kind of damages he was dealing.

Maybe in time perhaps...

(Edit ) Paz, would you consider posting something for me there, if I have time to type it up?
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 09, 2015, 09:08:48 AM
Paz no personal offence meant to you, I understand your good intentions in trying to stay neutral in this but he is banned for a reason here. If he is using you as a proxy to relay messages to our community it defeats the purpose.

We gave him plenty of opportunity and chances to talk this out personally but he rejected all methods due to w/e excuses. Then he send ShinesBright as a proxy, while none of them were banned. And now he is using you after he is banned?

Sorry, not sure what to think of this.

Edit:
Also my personal opinion in all of this, outside of my moderator job or member of MotK: I don't communicate with people who commit to fraud, doxxing and slander. Especially people who don't apologise proper. So he definitely should stop using you as a proxy to relay messages.

Also: Important to note. Saijee is forgetting that he would've been unprobated the very day he posted the video doxxing Ruw. Meaning he would gain full access again to the forum and potential dialogues. But he decided to put up the video exactly on the same day. I had decide to place him a soft punishment for his ignorance. 1 Week of cooldown was given. But in the end, he abused all my good intentions by disclosing all my PMs and forcefully modifying them to obscure their meaning.

He could also appeal and explain himself in Eiki's section. Banned or probated members can see the forum section and interact with the moderation team. He chose to do none.

So personally Paz, I see no reason why you are acting as a proxy for him. I respect your efforts and I like you as a person but this does nobody good in my opinion.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Paz legalces on February 09, 2015, 09:22:40 AM
Quote
And now he is using you after he is banned?... So personally Paz, I see no reason why you are acting as a proxy for him. 
Actually, I was the one who offer him an opportunity to have anything he would want to say being relayed here (he was just inviting only me and my fb page in general)... so it was I who took the initiative and ask if he would like to invite the motk people as well and I would happily relay it for him... since the video also largely concerning the motk staffs as well...
My apologies if it seems otherwise and if what I do seem to be undermining your group's effort in laying this matter at rest; I have no intention of disrespecting the community's decision to ban him and was just thinking of it as a good gesture to salvage any goodwills left between the 2 (or 3, or 4, or 5)... my apologies  :ohdear:
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Helepolis on February 09, 2015, 09:30:24 AM
You don't need to apologise in my opinion. Like I said, good intentions are shown with no harm meant. We are not going to edit your messages or delete them. I also suggest you don't edit it either. Leave the posts as they are.

Of course the people are free to go and discuss or do what he/she likes. So thanks for the announcement either way.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Tengukami on February 09, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
Yeah, you know what? At this point I feel there's really nothing more to be gained by this thread. The whole FSS team have been banned from here, and anyone who still gives a shit about what this dude thinks or says is already on his YouTube or FB space engaging with him. We don't want his voice here. So right now this thread's purpose seems solely to be kind of snickering behind their backs (or in front of their backs, as they are demonstrably following this thread).

My vote is for locking this up already. There is nothing more to be gained here. All good intentions aside, I would prefer if people not bring Saijee's voice into this space - go to his space if you want to engage with him. We are beyond done with him here.
Title: Re: On a certain fangame project by a certain developer
Post by: Edible on February 09, 2015, 01:07:32 PM
Quite.

Edit: If you have any concerns regarding this thread, please let me know.  It will otherwise remain locked indefinitely.