Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[nintendonut888]

FINALLY. Floor 18's layout is just a little bit cruel if you ask me...but no matter! I have reached the boss at last! TIME TO GET MY ASS KICKED. o/

EDIT: Eww...what level is recommended for him again?

[LHCling]

I personally recommend 90-110105. Don't know what the others would recommend though.

[nintendonut888]

'k...because my team is now in their late 70s to late 80s. :S How much health does he have anyway? I know he has a bunch of different forms, but that's it. Also he's way too fast and seemingly immune to debuffs.

[Ghaleon]

If you think about it, several characters can meet (or possibly exceed) Master Spark's damage if you actually get them to 100% ATK/MAG buffs first. It's just that Marisa's Concentrate makes it the most easily viable for her to do it. Especially considering when the boss is weak to an element that is not MYS, or resists MYS.

Well, and Master Spark is still probably more powerful then most things in that case, although the fact that after 1 shot... that's all, folks! Which means only superior because of Concentrate and for FINAL PHASE MUST NUKE INSTANTLY.

You don't understand, Master spark gets more and more useful later on. Because instead of being that one nuke you use at the end of the game, pretty  much immediately after Yukari, you can use it whenever you please, and Marisa will regen her sp back to 1600+ before the battle is over, to be used again. and the 2nd time, you wont have to rebuff her mag from 0 to full again, it'll already be at 60-something. Marisa is simply underwhelming for Yukari in general, because yukari is a relatively squishy boss for how hard she is (and how late game she is), combined with the fact that she's almost sure to djinn storm RIGHT before phase 3 which is when you no doubt wanted to horde all that sp.

As for patchy-level mnd, that's just assuming you don't make patchy's mnd grow as well. spend some skillpoints for patchy too and it'll grow beyond anything anybody else can hope to reach with equal commitment. Patchy pretty much solo'd the floor 27 boss for me.

Yukari herself is not a character I used on my first playthru because my party was already more or less established. Her stats are nice, and her 2 support spells are indeed good. However it's worth mentioning that you should never really count on her other spells. I had like a million or 2 skillpoints saved up for Yukari when i got her, and I poured them all into just her as soon as I got her (I made a backupsave in the event she dissapointed me), and gave her good equipment. But the damage I got from her spells (and the rate that speed debuffing one actually debuffed) was extremely dissapointing...Though I guess her chen+ran one is probably great if you have those characters in your group.

Having a 2nd character to hakkurei barrier when Reimu gets destroy magic'd or something would be very nice.

Still though, I honestly would not dump Marisa for anybody, or Reimu, master spark and that aoe heal are one of a kind abilities that nobody else has something remotely similar to. Master spark really does seem kinda  underwhelming at first but it gets better more and more faster than everything else gets better due to its nature of being more frequently used in tough battles later on. And as I mentioned every master spark after the first doesn't require nearly as much concentration time.

[LHCling]

'k...because my team is now in their late 70s to late 80s. :S How much health does he have anyway? I know he has a bunch of different forms, but that's it. Also he's way too fast and seemingly immune to debuffs.

Spoiler:

2mil+ HP from what I gathered, but note that the forms themselves can take a bit of "overflow" damage before swapping. Immune to debuffs is also correct

.

[nintendonut888]

Ooh, it's a good thing you gain levels faster as the game goes on...I may very well have a tapering off of playing, as I have a deadline to finish something else, and knowing my work ethic I need to concentrate on it.

But I figure I should focus my skill points not in offense but in defense, considering the two big problems are that he severely outruns me and he flattens everyone with a few punches.

[Serela]

Ooh, it's a good thing you gain levels faster as the game goes on...I may very well have a tapering off of playing, as I have a deadline to finish something else, and knowing my work ethic I need to concentrate on it.

But I figure I should focus my skill points not in offense but in defense, considering the two big problems are that he severely outruns me and he flattens everyone with a few punches.

You should probably try to get to about Reimu lv90 now. That's around the point where 18F boss starts becoming realistically possible (aka without godsetup+luckgarbage)

Funnily, that means you can get through the game with only TWO grinding sessions, right before either 16F or 18F boss, and then the Final Boss. Damn.

Also, grinding on 17F will level you up so much faster then 18F. EXP/SKP is only slightly less and the battles end MUCH quicker.

[trancehime]

Re: Master Spark
Master Spark is on a completely different level that no other skill in the game can compare to, not even

Spoiler:

Yuka's Master Spark, which is weaker than Marisa's by virtue of it being multi-target

. Once you have enough SP to make your α = 2, then the damage on that just racks up higher and higher and higher as you continue to crank up Marisa's MAG. I've had the Master Spark do literally tens of MILLIONS of damage on single castings without buffs because of that. With buffs, I've seen it reach almost 100 million damage. Not even Flandre's godlike Attack stats can reach that sort of immense power, I've only seen it crank to about 60~80% of that damage with buffs! The fact that it does nuke all of Marisa's SP afterwards is a balancing factor, naturally. You just cannot expect to see most things later on, even with severe levelling, compare to the damage of the Awesomespark. Not even

Spoiler:

Yuka's own

.

Re: Yukarin
Did you guys all forget Yukari's Spiriting Away? It gives everyone a free turn! Also Shikigami Ran+ kinda sucks if you don't have Ran/Chen in the group. But why the fuck wouldn't you have Ran and Chen in your party in the first place? Both of them are extremely solid characters who I'd say outclass Yukari >_> All she has got over them is slightly more MAG and much more durability.

Re: nintendonut888's problem
The boss has 2.08 million HP, to be exact. Baity wasn't very far off though.
Also, beware the mighty Traumerei, it hurts

[MysTeariousYukari]

But why the fuck wouldn't you have

Spoiler:

Ran

and Chen in your party in the first place?

In my case the answer is, because Chen is patheticly weak especially when I compare her to her replacement xD

Edit: donut, for that boss, if your doing it right he will switch out of 1 form into the next and never return to that form, but if your doing it wrong-ish it will return to an old form. To me, it seems like each form has it's own HP count and when that hits 0 the boss won't go to that form. Funny thing though, you can actually beat the 18F boss while it's still in an early form if you either A) Grind to overkill levels, or B) Use cheats in some way to get high stats so you can OHKO the boss.

Great thing about the 18F boss I have seen, if your at a good level to beat it, it's attacks will look pathetic mostly, with only a few still being notable :V

*complaining begin* I honestly don't see why we tag some chars but not others, what if TSO or Letty(I pick TSO and Letty name wise cause lots of people on MotK know who they are) or someone else decided they wanted to play Labyrinth, came to this thread and got spoiled about various characters. I bring this up cause or original decision was basicly "spoiler-tag any char past the 2nd page of characters" and yet here we are naming off even later chars without a tag. I don't want to sound like a nag, I just ask that we spoiler-tag some characters please *end complaining*

[trancehime]

In my case the answer is, because Chen is patheticly weak especially when I compare her to her replacement xD I also fixed the line I am quoting.

I can get more Flights of Idaten in a single turn than I can get Catwalks.

I think this speaks for itself

[MysTeariousYukari]

I can get more Flights of Idaten in a single turn than I can get Catwalks

I don't use that character :V I use

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V

[Serela]

I don't use that character :V I use

Spoiler:

Rinnosuke

as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V

Chen quite literally takes less then HALF the exp to level, then that character. Chen should be SOOO much faster then him I don't even-

Anyway, missed my school bus so I leveled 4 times to Reimu lv134 and got the final boss down without a hitch. Was pretty fun! Of course, I was pretty lucky... the self-buff was used only twice, Djinn Storm only once, and the big nuke was NEVER used. And that boss was alive for quite awhile.

I have to say, Chen/Meiling/Remi/16F were the most important characters for this fight. Chen was the best damage dealer, Meiling only died at the very end (and only because SHE NEVER GOT TO MOVE LIKE EVER AUGH, she got about one turn after the Djinn Storm. ONE.), while Remi was a great tank and passive damage dealer, and Chen was my biggest source of damage hands down.

Spoiler:

Then, Yukari was great because almost nothing could hurt her at all, and she could just sit there buffing. Suika was pretty great too with her self-buff and Throwing Atlas. She can take quite a few hits with that MND of hers!

Now to prepare to go slaughter some v.2 bosses!

EDIT:Accidently ran into Boss Rush pretty much instantly (aka still at lv134) and actually made it through to the Final Boss. Only reached Final Boss's second phase with 4 people left though, because I totally wasn't prepared and I was the same level as when I beat the game... ;-;

IT TOOK 40 MINUTES TO DO THAT AUGH WHY DIDN'T I CLOSE THE GAME WHEN I RAN INTO BOSS RUSH

[nintendonut888]

Really...? You're saying the boss is possible with Reimu at level 90? o_O She's at 89 right now, and I don't see how this is remotely possible. Does he get easier once you get out of his first form or something?

Also, grinding on floor 17 MAY be easier, but that floor also has a lot of slowdown. =_= Then again, ALL the floors have a lot of slowdown once the map gets close to completion, floors 11 and 13 being the worst.

[Serela]

Really...? You're saying the boss is possible with Reimu at level 90? o_O She's at 89 right now, and I don't see how this is remotely possible. Does he get easier once you get out of his first form or something?

Also, grinding on floor 17 MAY be easier, but that floor also has a lot of slowdown. =_= Then again, ALL the floors have a lot of slowdown once the map gets close to completion, floors 11 and 13 being the worst.

Its really not recommended, but possible. At lv100 he shouldn't be hard, and somewhere inbetween is a good level for a challenge. His attacks really lose their punch with 3 defensively good characters buffed up (Meiling/Remi/16F sat in the first 3 spots and laughed at him the whole time, Reimu lv98 for me. Afterwards I kinda wished I'd done him a few levels lower.)

Also... 17F has slowdown for you? Strange, it doesn't even have that much space taken in it. 18F has a lot more (and if you haven't explored it all, its full of some REALLY nice equipment).

If you get slowdown on 17F, you'll commit suicide on 19F.  :V


Mmkay, fully explored the new post-game areas unlocked on 20F, and I have over a million SKP. Tee hee.

[yoshicookiezeus]

YES

12F trio is down! After another hour of grinding, Royal Flare spam seemed to work just fine, causing the main two bosses to go down just after one another, after which it was a simple case to go all out against the third, minor, one. I did get a bit frightened when the game seemed to freeze after the battle, but just waiting for a bit got it going again.

Also: omg plot.

[Ghaleon]

Chen quite literally takes less then HALF the exp to level, then that character. Chen should be SOOO much faster then him I don't even-

Well his modifier is double, that hardly means his actual level is half though.
OOH OOH! Time to play with my "wut level is this character" program!
exp given:   Chen's lvl, 

Spoiler:

Rin's level

100,000:    31     25
1,000,000:     69    55
50,000,000:    120    95
250,000,000,000:    206    163
1,500,000,000,000:    375    298
10,000,000,000,000:   708    562
100,000,000,000,000:    1527    1212

[Serela]

That isn't what I meant >:

Chen should take less then half the EXP to level up then that character, when at an equal level. However, this doesn't mean she'll be twice the level, because the experience needed to level up increases per level which helps keep her from rocketing past everyone else.

Although, this makes me wonder how the stats of characters with a Level-Up of around 80 (EX:Cirno, Rumia) ACTUALLY compare to stats of characters with more like 120+. I mean, characters with a high level-up mod have a little less stats then advertised while the characters with lower ones have a little higher then advertised. It makes things more confusing >:



ANYWAY, Reimu lv151, beaten half or more of the Ver.2 bosses and the 2 Bloodstained ones you can fight before post-game. Basically, all the bosses that don't completely rape me before I can move. Which should I be able to finish first, all the Ver.2 bosses or Boss Rush? I want to go pick up that character on 21F. And, it takes like a half hour to get to the end of Boss Rush, which is the part that actually matters, so... blah.

[Ghaleon]

Although, this makes me wonder how the stats of characters with a Level-Up of around 80 (EX:Cirno, Rumia) ACTUALLY compare to stats of characters with more like 120+. I mean, characters with a high level-up mod have a little less stats then advertised while the characters with lower ones have a little higher then advertised. It makes things more confusing >:

This is exactly what I intend to figure out with my theorycrafting, that and more, such as factoring the formulas of their attacks too.

My last 2 road blocks are the skillpoint costs to gain each level. It wouldn't be fair to assume everyone was the same skill level when some cost more to level those up than others, and....I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the speed problem, yay!

[AlexX Unlimited]

I don't suppose anyone would know how to modify music for the game? [/cardinal sin]

While most of it is awesome the "standard" boss theme against the optionals and sigil guardians starts to get dull by the time you've heard it for the umpteenth time (story bosses get it much better), so I was thinking of replacing it with Coldheartedness from Devil Survivor to make things more interesting.

[yoshicookiezeus]

Those bronze golems on 14F are starting to get really annoying. Seriously, one-shotting Tenshi of all people? At least my current setup can take them out before they can attack most of the time...

[Serela]

Those bronze golems on 14F are starting to get really annoying. Seriously, one-shotting Tenshi of all people? At least my current setup can take them out before they can attack most of the time...

Tenshi's low HP makes her highly vulnerable to anything that can get past her defenses. Her self-buff takes care of this (mostly), but you don't really use that in random battles.

In fact, Tenshi is almost completely useless in random battles. You'd be better off using someone who can attack yet is still durable, so you can kill the enemies quicker; this makes exploring safer then bringing in a tank into the random battles.

[yoshicookiezeus]

In fact, Tenshi is almost completely useless in random battles.

After that battle, I kind of noticed that and thus don't use her anymore. Right now, I use Marisa, Patchy, and Aya for taking out most of the enemies before they can move, along with

Spoiler:

Komachi

in the first slot in the hope that if something survives, it will attack her.

Though now that I think about it, exchanging her for someone else who can actually do some damage to the enemies would probably be a better idea. Cirno, perhaps? A lot of the 14F enemies seem really susceptible to paralysis...

[Ghaleon]

After that battle, I kind of noticed that and thus don't use her anymore. Right now, I use Marisa, Patchy, and Aya for taking out most of the enemies before they can move, along with

Spoiler:

Komachi

in the first slot in the hope that if something survives, it will attack her.

Though now that I think about it, exchanging her for someone else who can actually do some damage to the enemies would probably be a better idea. Cirno, perhaps? A lot of the 14F enemies seem really susceptible to paralysis...

I wouldn't reccommend dumping people just for trash usefulness. Trash for each floor at your point of the game is always overwhelmingly powerful. However they *REALLY* get trivial in just a few lvels. Not only will a few levels enable you to kill them all before any move most of the time, but you'd also be suprised at how much faster def/mnd per level up makes their attacks go from 1shot material, to 2 shot material, to weak, to 0.

Of course it'll be a really long time before those golems hit you for 0, or even become weak hitting, but they are *SO* slow that, it will NOT be long before you can kill em before they move (even with someone with little dps holding you back)...

I find her 2nd spell (the big multi target nature nuke) to be quite powerful though actually. Just don't use it if you don't have to or else your sp will reach 0 fast.

[Jaimers]

Progress!
Made it out of the single digit floors! Have access to F12 now, although there's some sort of locked door.
Also beat

Spoiler:

Suwako

in quite an intense fight. Everybody dead except Alice who used her last bit of sp for one more Return Inanimate, which was enough.
Is it just me again, or was that a very hard boss? ;>_>
I have a feeling

Spoiler:

Suwako

is going to be very usefull in the fight against

Spoiler:

Nitori

.
Which stat should I be focusing on? ATK, MAG or just both at the same time?

[MysTeariousYukari]

Spoiler:

Komachi

can deal pretty good damage with her 4th move and if something is difficult to beat down, try her 3rd or 4th as they are pretty good. I would reccomend giving

Spoiler:

Komachi's

level bonus into ATK rather then HP. In fact my

Spoiler:

Komachi

had like 100k ATK or so when Remi has like 125k ATK or sumthin like that, so she can definatly compare with Remi.

For

Spoiler:

Suwako

I would focus on her ATK as it is more useful if you want to use this character on bosses.

[Garlyle]

Which stat should I be focusing on? ATK, MAG or just both at the same time?

Up to you.  MAG makes her an anti-enemy nuker; ATK makes her a boss killer (Especially for NTR-weak bosses as her NTR single-target is, to my knowledge, one of the strongest NTR moves in the game)

[Serela]

Yeah, for

Spoiler:

Suwako

go for ATK. Her magical multi-hits are nice against floor trash but her ATK single-targets... one inflicts good damage and PAR three times stronger then anyone elses (Bar Plus-Disk character

Spoiler:

Renko's PAR-120+SPD/ATK Down multi-hit

) and the other is a wonderful nuke.

And you don't need a specialize a character to help with floor trash when instead you could make them totally awesome for bosses. You don't sit there grinding because you can't beat up the enemies encountered on the next floor.

[LHCling]

Palm Sigil Guardian

Spoiler:

Cosmic

taken down without losing anybody. Reimu Lv102.
Took some really good planning. Oh, and no

Spoiler:

Tenshi

"abuse" by means of debuffing the

Spoiler:

+100% MAG

buff. The idea of using her did cross my mind though; I must now bleach my brain and REPENT.

20F time.

[Serela]

20F time.

Spoiler:

*explore for 4 minutes* *grindgrindgrindgrind*

20F encounters give massive EXP/SKP, so it won't be as bad as you may think to reach a level where you can take on the Final Boss (Likely 130~135). Especially considering how you seem to be doing them at as low a level as possible. (Which is great!)

Okay, the only ver.2 bosses I have left now are

Spoiler:

Flandre, Mokou, Yukari, and MANnosuke.

Reimu lv154. Interesting considering I beat the first one on that list on my first playthrough at about 10 levels lower, on the first try.

[Fishin]

And you don't need a specialize a character to help with floor trash when instead you could make them totally awesome for bosses.

^

I'm regretting putting any MAG level up points into

Spoiler:

Suwako and Ran

.  Useful against randoms, sure, but level up points are finite and can't be changed, so you're hurting their effectiveness against bosses a lot in a way that you can't take back.  Thankfully by the time

Spoiler:

Yukari

joined I'd learned my lesson.