Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2

[Serela]

Who did you use first playthrough and who are you using now?

First time

Spoiler:

Reimu
Marisa
Remi
Patchy
Chen
Youmu
Alice
Komachi
Suwako
Sanae
Tenshi
Flandre

I didn't have any trouble at all with almost anything until 16F, and most optional bosses after 12F (including the 18F boss) could be so completely cheesed out by 10F girl that it wasn't even funny, and I probably beat some of them 10~15 levels lower then I might have needed otherwise.

This time, I'm planning

Spoiler:

Reimu
Marisa
Meiling
Minoriko
Yuugi
Nitori
Eirin
Orin
Kaguya
Suika
Yuyuko
Yukari

while also using all the different characters I can until I get all of these 12. I'm having a lot more trouble with bosses so far (I.E. not beating them on the first or second try all the time) then the first time, but I don't have my final 12 yet either. Many of them are on the 4th page, for gods sake!

The second party of 12 originally looked a bit different, but as I try characters I keep going "Ehh... I don't really want to keep this one", which is why Wriggle, Sakuya, Aya, and Iku were removed from the final 12 (although still used for quite a while). 12F healer might be replaced too, although I don't know yet.

9F is pretty great for trash clearing, but she isn't that great for bosses, so I think I'll probably switch her for 15F girl when I get her. Since I'm doing Plus Disk this time, I'll need her for speeding up grinding anyway, so I'll be able to bear doing it legit.

[MysTeariousYukari]

I honestly like 15F, and AlexX even if you don't want to use her, she is indeed be a character to try out a little bit and see what she offers in battle itself. If you have used her and decided you don't want to use her, then please ignore my spoiler-tagged bit, it's just power comparison.

Spoiler:

A recent example of power, my Patchy used Silent Selene on a random, 45k~ 15Fs single target move then proceded to deal a little over 103k, then on 15Fs next turn I used her 3rd spell... I think it broke 150k.

What is the Drop Rate for Scourge? Does anyone know it? I reaaaaaaly want it :3 That thing looks like it'll make nukes even more nuke-tastic xD

[Milkyway64]

What is the Drop Rate for Scourge? Does anyone know it? I reaaaaaaly want it :3 That thing looks like it'll make nukes even more nuke-tastic xD

My personal experience says:

Never. You won't get it until you personally decide it's no longer worth it.

[AlexX Unlimited]

I honestly like 15F, and AlexX even if you don't want to use her, she is indeed be a character to try out a little bit and see what she offers in battle itself. If you have used her and decided you don't want to use her, then please ignore my spoiler-tagged bit, it's just power comparison.

I'm well aware of damage comparison, but A. I can't beat her right now, and B. I don't really have room for her since I just barely managed to make room for the new girl I've been wanting (and I'm still shifting the party around to try and find someone I can permanently kick for her...).

On that subject, why do they keep associating her with fire? Her profile would indicate she doesn't specialize in anything other than pure nukage, which has no default element, so why does her battle sprite have more fire than characters who actually are fire-based?

I'd complain about depicting her as such a psycho too, but the game has so much fanon material in it I'm surprised Marisa and Alice haven't started making out yet...

[MysTeariousYukari]

I'm surprised Marisa and Alice haven't started making out yet

This = Win. xD

I believe the Fire association is due to myth.

Spoiler:

The weapon of hers as well as a spell card of hers, Laevatein, is from norse myth and Laevatein's use has been summed up like so "In the Norse version of the of the end of the world a powerful Wand/Sword called Laevatein will be used to burn the world down." So I think it makes some sense, she has a magical Fire Sword/Wand that is used to burn the world itself to ashes, it's either that or the game makers wanted her to be a Glass Cannon who can take a hit or 2 from a highly common element, Fire. The myth bit can also serve as partail reasoning for why her MYS Affinity is her 2nd highest.

I hope that helps explain it to you. It makes sense to me when I consider this.

[mlkio]

I'll take your word for it, but I don't really have any interest in using either of those girls, so I'll just forget about status effects.
Multiple healers are important, because Hong might have to heal herself first (since odds are she's in the first slot) while the other, who is likely to be in the back row, can take care of others first.
My stats seem to indicate she has better MND, but less DEF. She has clearly less magic though, and she's not faster, she just has less delay in her moves.
Haven't run into those yet. Don't they just deplete the SP of the current active party?
Wiki states that her MND is nowhere near as good as Patchy's, and her defense is about as terrible. =| I also don't like moves that damage the user or reduce the team's active gauges. She has no stable attacks whatsoever.

Hong shoudn't need to heal herself that often. Minoriko also has better health. Also you shouldn't ignore status effects. They are extremely powerful and can greatly weaken a boss's power.

[AlexX Unlimited]

Hong shoudn't need to heal herself that often.

My personal experience disagrees: I set up all my defenses against the girls on floor 14 and 15 and I found myself having to heal my first two slots fairly often (something easy to do thanks to having Hong in the first slot and the green one in one of the last two slots).

Minoriko also has better health.

De-equipping the one I'm currently using (and checking to see that both have the same amount of skillpoints invested in HP), my greenbitch has 10 more points of health than Minoriko.

Also you shouldn't ignore status effects. They are extremely powerful and can greatly weaken a boss's power.

Unfortunetly, my team is strapped for room as it is since I want my favorites in there no matter what, not to mention I have a lot of skillpoints I need to grind for just to get my current team back up to par... Adding someone new at this point will be a pain and a half. =/

[mlkio]

My personal experience disagrees: I set up all my defenses against the girls on floor 14 and 15 and I found myself having to heal my first two slots fairly often (something easy to do thanks to having Hong in the first slot and the green one in one of the last two slots).
De-equipping the one I'm currently using (and checking to see that both have the same amount of skillpoints invested in HP), my greenbitch has 10 more points of health than Minoriko.
Unfortunetly, my team is strapped for room as it is since I want my favorites in there no matter what, not to mention I have a lot of skillpoints I need to grind for just to get my current team back up to par... Adding someone new at this point will be a pain and a half. =/

Hong should be strong enough to go 1-3 turns without needing a heal or at least that's how mine is. I just checked the stats. Green girl has 60 percent more defense then mino, better status defense and a tiny bit more resist. However simply because of spell delay she can heal 50 percent faster and has less problems with spell drains. Whatevers I guess.

You really should use status effects. They can seriously make a huge difference.

[AlexX Unlimited]

You really should use status effects. They can seriously make a huge difference.

If you want you can take a look at my team list on page 5 and tell me who to keep/kick. Just remember that most are either too valuable to replace or ones I really want on my team, so don't expect me to budge on a number of them...

[mlkio]

If you want you can take a look at my team list on page 5 and tell me who to keep/kick. Just remember that most are either too valuable to replace or ones I really want on my team, so don't expect me to budge on a number of them...

Reimu: Spam her barrier in boss fights. Also occasionally heals if everyone really needs it and the buffs are good enough/Ran is present.
Marisa: MASTA SPAAAAAAAARK
Ran: Spam Eighty Billion Holy Boards until her SP runs out. Occasionally toss in a Banquet of the 12 General Gods.
Yuugi: Physical tank and physical hitter. Occasionally poisons/paralyzes with Irremovable Shackles.
Meiling: Tanks. Heals and restores status if others need it, otherwise she's focusing or healing herself.
Patchy: Nuker.
Nitori: CLD specialist, NTR specialist, and the occasional Megawatt.

I recommend replacing sanae with minoriko or just using them both. The 50 percent bonus to healing speed is a big deal. Hong really shouldn't need to heal herself that often if she
has a decent +buff. I use reimu in my second slot though as reimu has aoe heal. Her, mino and hong together has plenty of heals and status removal but this is a defensive team. I should note that I killed the floor 18 boss with this team at level 85ish or so and I believe that that was also that level I killed the floor 5 secret boss with.

Eirin should be dropped. Her heals are too weak. Chen isn't that good when you consider the time it takes to swap her in and out. You should use kagura as she can do patchy level damage but can also take a greater number of hits. Tenshi isn't that good.

[AlexX Unlimited]

So you know, most people in this topic seem to hate spoilers, which was why I went through the effort of spoiler-ing all those out... its also why I use ambiguous nicknames for each character in later floors. Anyhow:

-I've already gone over why I much prefer The Green One over Minoriko.
-My slot two is usually goldenbitch in boss battles due to better defenses with Reimu in slot 3 and Marisa priming her spark in the last slot before swapping out. Once slot 2 requires swapping out due to SP shortage I usually put in medicinebitch or another tank.
-If it comes down to it I sometimes do the same strategy with the green one in place of Minoriko, and occasionally the medicinebitch in place of Reimu.
-If Medicinebitch goes the new girl takes her place. However, I like how she can act somewhat like a second Hong in that she can be a semitank (not good enough for slot 1, but perfect for slot 2) and keep herself and others healthy. Her heal isn't as good as the green one's, but it still makes for some good backup healing, not to mention the fact she can overheal people makes for a good prepping when I know something big is coming (or when I just need someone to have better protection and buffers are either not present or out of SP... or said character is already at 100% buffs). The fact it heals by percent means that she can be debuffed like mad and she will still heal as good as ever.
-I'm not dropping Chen just becase she requires more strategy than most characters in order to fight efficiently. As long as I calculate the boss's speed she can jump in, deal around 25k-30k damage, then swap out before taking any hits. Its more work, but this is an RPG, I can't exactly be shying away from stuff that requires brainwork, even if it requires more brainwork than normal. If she's getting dropped its for the new girl, otherwise she's staying right where she is.
-I'm pretty sure Kagura isn't in this game. Joking aside, the character you mean to reccomend to me refuses to join even though I've hit F16 and I've used the 4 characters who determine her joining plenty. That said, I'm still not planning on using her right now.
-Skybitch? Not that good? Are you MAD?

[Ghaleon]

I like kaggy, she's in my party, but so is patchy... What kind of meth addict thinks kaggy does patchy dps!? furthermore, she is HARDER to keep alive because her health and def is only slightly better than patchy's (physical hits will still instagib her) and her mnd, while good, is significantly less than patchy's. Kaggy also has larger delays on her spells than silent Selene.

[Serela]

-Skybitch? Not that good? Are you MAD?

The only thing she has to offer is massive walling. Meiling can at least heal status effects, which is very useful, and is faster as well, so she is more useful for switching.

The thing is, 10F girl is also insanely good at her massive walling. Against many bosses she can sit in the first slot the entire battle and take 0 damage, while focusing/buffing herself and switching in a nuker or healer from time to time. When she can't do this against a boss however, she's much less useful then other tanks, and she is nearly useless in floor exploration as well.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Ok,

Spoiler:

Final Boss Time. I need tips. Which minion does what when it's the last minion alive, and how much HP each have and how HP the Final Boss has would also be nice.

[Ghaleon]

Ok,

Spoiler:

Final Boss Time. I need tips. Which minion does what when it's the last minion alive, and how much HP each have and how HP the Final Boss has would also be nice.

Spoiler:

K first off, attacking a minion actually attacks damages the boss herself, at least until all 3 minions are out. If you don't know that, the amount of hp they have will seem disproportionate. However if you know that, you'll know that they all have roughly similar amounts (I believe all 3 have under 1 million, they range from 400k to 800k or something I don't really remember for sure though.)

I like killing the top one first, then the right one, then the left one. Someone suggested to me to kill the top one last. It all depends on how much protection your party has against status ailments I guess

As I recall correctly, they gain the following powers
Top when 1 other is down: Can now cast destroy magic, I'm not sure if toxin seed is activated now, or it always knows this spell at this point
Top when 2 others are down. It can cast djinn storm, which actually isn't so bad, because the boss herself can cast it too at this point if you're lucky *cough*

Left: when 1 is down: Not sure, casts more powerful magic I guess, maybe ether flare is the unlocked one
when both are down: Casts magic jitsu, you know that 100% magic spellpower buff... It sounds worse than it is though, it's magic is still quite low, even with a 100% magic jitsu followed by an ether flare, it still hurts less than the boss herself casting hyperactive flying object or something, btw this one is VERY weak to fire, you can probably 2 shot it with 2 good solid fire attacks.

Right: Not sure when 1 is down...But for the love of god do NOT kill it last, if you do.. it'll cast scourge over and over.. You know, that attack diamond knights have if you let them make a move that hits for over 200k (yes, 200k not 20k).

[MysTeariousYukari]

Spoiler:

I have seen 1st hand that the Magic casting minion can use Strengthen Jutsu or whatever when 1 other minion is down, it also started using Dark Blaze on me. Also after 1 minion goes down the Physical minion seems to gain Sealing Slash which looks like a Row-based SIL Inflicting Physical move.

So if 2 minions are out and the 3rd has NOT been called out yet hitting all 3 foes, Boss and 2 minions, would basicly be the same as using that move 3 times on the boss alone, like if Royal Flare dealt 50k, 60k, 100k the boss would actually suffer 210k, right? Awesome if thats how it works I wonder how much HP the boss itself has... Next time I fight I'll write down what I deal, down to the 1s digit.

Thanks, that info is really helpful *hands Ghaleon 20 cookies*

[AlexX Unlimited]

The only thing she has to offer is massive walling. Meiling can at least heal status effects, which is very useful, and is faster as well, so she is more useful for switching.

The thing is, 10F girl is also insanely good at her massive walling. Against many bosses she can sit in the first slot the entire battle and take 0 damage, while focusing/buffing herself and switching in a nuker or healer from time to time. When she can't do this against a boss however, she's much less useful then other tanks, and she is nearly useless in floor exploration as well.

I find that if any boss that does more than 0 damage to skybitch with any amount of buffs on I'm either severely underlevelled or I'm way behind on skillpoint distribution.

The point of her is, as you said, to sit in slot 1 and take 0 damage from everything. She is interchangable with Meiling, because both have the same purpose of tanking. Not the exact same of course, but that's why I use them both instead of just one. If Meiling is not present I still have two other capable healers on my team, one of which can also restore status effects.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Spoiler:

I defeated the 6F Bloody Seal boss, Beast of Centurea or whatever :V Now I just need to beat the final boss >.>

[Serela]

Spoiler:

I defeated the 6F Bloody Seal boss, Beast of Centurea or whatever :V Now I just need to beat the final boss >.>

Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Thanks:) By the way, are you NeoSerela? I am seeing so many name changes I'm having trouble remembering who is who :V

[Serela]

Thanks:) By the way, are you NeoSerela? I am seeing so many name changes I'm having trouble remembering who is who

Yes. I suppose it doesn't help that I also changed my avatar and such  :V

[mlkio]

Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.

Isn't her third form more annoying than weak?

[scherzo]

Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.

Eh, I found the final boss fight surprisingly easy (was at Reimu lvl 130), beating her on my first try. The third phase made me sweat a little, but standard tactics (tanks out in front, mnd/def/spd buffs up at all times, dpsers in the back) were sufficient.

On the subject of 15F girl, I had a fun time beating the ver2/seal bosses with her +

Spoiler:

Kaguya to spam Buddha's Stone Bowl

. Examples:

• Killing 15F after she gets off one attack
• Taking out middle in the 12F trio before they can even move
• 20F seal boss gets off two attacks before dying
• 16F dies before she can cast Djinn Storm

[Ghaleon]

I find the final boss' difficulty is largely dependant on how much she keeps her buff up (sometimes she rarely casts it, other times it's stuck at 100%), how often she casts djinn storm, and how often she casts hyperdimensional flying object. Quadruple barrier, magic drain, etc, etc, they're all gimmies.

[Deranged]

I just noticed that the omake text file in the plus disk folder actually has quite a bit of data on attacks and the system. I've done some translation and organizing of it: I'm not sure if some of this information has already been stated (specifically the pastebin that was shown earlier though it's down now), but I'm putting it here anyway in case it helps anyone.

=============================
PAR, SPD and the Active Gauge
=============================
This section will answer the question "How does the active gauge work?"

The active gauge has a minimum value of 0, and a maximum value of 10,000.

First of all, the additions made to the activage gauge for both enemies and allies are calculated based on the SPD stat. (Exact calculations mentioned later).
When the gauge reaches 10,000 or more for a character, it becomes that character's turn.
If two or more characters reach 10,000+ active gauge at the same time, the characters with larger gauge will go first.
If two or more characters reach 10,000+ with the exact same gauge number, priorities are given to the allies, and within each group, priority is given from left to right in party order.

Each of these "singular addition to everyone's active gauge based on SPD" is called a "battle count". Hmm, quite a boring name.
Each "battle count" affects not only the active gauge, but also PSN damage, and the reduction of any active PSN, PAR and SIL effects.

The equation for how much your SPD affects the active gauge for each battle count is a little difficult to show, so I'll just give some examples below.

For a single battle count:
SPD 100: Active Gauge +100
SPD 200: Active Gauge +200
SPD 400: Active Gauge +300
SPD 700: Active Gauge +400
SPD 1100: Active Gauge +500
SPD 1600: Active Gauge +600
SPD 2200: Active Gauge +700
SPD 2900: Active Gauge +800
SPD 3700: Active Gauge +900

And so on. The calculations may seem difficult on the surface, but it should be easy to figure out with these exmaples.




===========================
All About PSN damage
===========================

The much-talked about PSN damage, where whether it's working or not can be hard to tell.
The equation however is surprisingly easy, if troublesome.

Before reading this, please read about battle counts in "PAR, SPD and the Active Gauge".

First of all, for spells with a PSN effect, the strength of the PSN is determined by the following equation:

(Spell's PSN strength * User's Level) * (1.00 + Users's Level * 0.03)

At this point, the target's PSN resistance is tested to see whether the PSN effect lands, and if it succeeds, how much the PSN effect is decreased by.
For this part, please refer to the FAQ page in the manual for more information.

The effect calcuations above affects not only whether the effect lands, but also the strength of the PSN.
For each battle count that passes by, the enemy will end up receiving (PSN effect / 50) damage.

After processing the PSN damage applied to the enemy, the reduction of the PSN effect will take place.
For each battle count, the enemy's PSN effect is reduced by 0.75%. It doesn't look like much, but it actually depletes quite quickly in practice.

===========================
PSN Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================

Spoiler:

#1: Comet on Earth (Wriggle): 120
#2: Firefly Phenomenon (Wriggle): 90
#3: Irremovable Shackles (Yuugi), Gas-Woven Orb (Reisen): 60
#4: Narrow Confines of Avici (Komachi), Vengeful Cannibal Spirit (Orin): 45
#5: Curse of Vlad Tepes (Remilia, self-only): 35

===========================
PAR Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================

Spoiler:

#1: Curse of Vlad Tepes (Remilia, self-only): 500
#2: Thundercloud Stickleback (Iku, ally-only): 300
#3: State of Enlightenment (Tenshi, self-only): 200
#4: Moreya's Iron Ring (Suwako): 90
#5: Evil Sealing Circle (Reimu): 38
#6: Diamond Blizzard (Cirno): 35
#7: Narrow Confines of Avici (Komachi), Mesh of Light & Darkness (Yukari), Irremovable Shackles (Yuugi): 30

===========================
DTH Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================

Spoiler:

#1: Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana (Yuyuko): 100
#2: Ghostly Dream's Butterfly, Ghastly Dream (Yuyuko): 75
#3: Scythe that Chooses the Dead (Komachi): 70
#4: Narrow Confines of Avici, Short Life Expectancy, Ferriage in the Deep Fog (Komachi): 40

Other random notes:

Spoiler:

Tenshi's State of Enlightenment

has a SIL effect of 100

Spoiler:

Tenshi's Sword of Rapture

checks what stat-buffs the target has, then has a 40% chance of removing each of them

Spoiler:

Yuyuko's Ghostly Dream's Butterfly and Ghastly Dream

both reduce the target(s)'s active gauge by 2500. The effect is weakened a lot on bosses.
I think someone wanted the delay values of each attack? They're all in the text file if so, for all the non-plusdisk characters. just check for the value after 使用後アクティブゲージ量 for each attack, then divide it by 10000 to get the percentage.

[MysTeariousYukari]

Holy Wow! Deranged, all that info their... wow. *Gives Deranged cookies*

So turns are not given at 10,000 for the active gauge, but when a battle count passes and someone has 10,000+ then after the count they get a turn, I always wondered how chars with different SPD stats could get their turn at the same time.

How does the rate of Ailment Affliction work? Like for the chars the player gets that can PSN? Same for PAR and DTH please:)

[Deranged]

How does the rate of Ailment Affliction work? Like for the chars the player gets that can PSN? Same for PAR and DTH please:)

[copypasta from manual]

13: What are Status Effect Resistances?
A: Just as it says, it's the character's resistance to status effects.
If you're still confused, you might want to consult a dictionary.

A bit more explanation.
For every point in the Status Effect Resistance, the chance of that status effect landing on the character decreases by 3%.

Additionally, if the status effect does land, the potency of the status effect is reduced by (Status Effect Resistance~Status Effect Resistance*2)%.

For example,
If a character with Paralysis Resistance 20 receives a Paralysis 500 Attack, there's a 60% chance of completely blocking the Paralysis.
And if the Paralysis lands, it's potency will be reduced to 400~300.

By the way, there are skills with a Death effect that easily reaches over 100% success rate, so be careful.

[/copypasta from manual]

It's not directly stated anywhere, but I assume DTH success rate uses the DTH strength of the spell versus the enemy's resistance rather than the straight 100 versus resistance that PAR/PSN use. So a DTH 30 attack will never land on a character/enemy with DTH resist of 10, while a PAR/PSN 30 attack will still have a 70% chance of landing on a character/enemy with PAR/PSN resist of 10, but if it lands, the initial effect will be weakened by 10~20% to 27~24 power.

[Serela]

Oh wow... this information is very useful. I should go and add the status affliction power to the attacks in the wiki.

I looked in the file, and it also seems that the Level-Up Experience modifier thing is listed for each non-plus character. Nifty!

I have no idea how to edit the wiki template to add in a spot for Attack Delay and Level-Up Difficulty though. 

EDIT:I messed around with the code and figured out how to do it. It wasn't very hard. I oh-so-wish that I didn't have to push Level-Up Difficulty all the way to the right though, because IMO, it's too easy to overlook that way... :<

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Characters_1#Reimu_Hakurei

Only Reimu edited so far. I might do a few characters a day, and then start filling in all the info for Plus Disk characters. We have all their information except Level-Up difficulty and attack names anyway, from the Japanese wiki. And, anyone who has gotten all the Plus-Disk characters could fill in the names.

[Just a GBZero]

Since I did a lot of the work on the first 3 character pages, even if it was only filling in the blanks, if its good with the people here, I could convert the rest of the table into the new format.  Would save time for when the info gets put in.

[Serela]

Since I did a lot of the work on the first 3 character pages, even if it was only filling in the blanks, if its good with the people here, I could convert the rest of the table into the new format.  Would save time for when the info gets put in.

I would love you for this. I just went through and added in the strengths of all the status-afflicting moves, and I'd probably do all the Level-Up and Delay info within a few days if you converted the tables.