Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 01:06:25 AM

Title: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 01:06:25 AM
Quote
Oh, by all means, do it when and if you can. Just expect it to stop being fun after reaching floor 30. As long as you skip the floor 21 boss, it paces well until floor 25, which is the first grind wall. It's not too much worse than the ones you've experienced so far, so you'll move on in no time. From there, you can basically run to floor 30 with only one troublesome fight, and from there, it's ALL grinding. Get used to fighting bikini clad liliths and black knights, because you'll be fighting them for as long as it took to reach that point and then some.

This. It's not just some giant grind wall you'll have to deal with. But one with virtually no new trash to speed it up. You'll be fighting trash balanced towards level 240 Reimu or so...until like level 450. At which point it's probably STILL your grind area of choice. The game is great, but they really should expect the player to not have to grind so much before new bosses at 30. They aren't even difficult unless you level, it's "I 1shot your entire party until you level up 200 levels first" kind of difficult. It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites.

update: nyah nyah flandre I saw it >=P Beat you by 12 seconds!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 01:11:25 AM
Quote
It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites.

xDxD Thats hilarious... Level 99 on Rabites of all things xD Also kinda funny, I saw the first part got locked so I made a part 2, then I saw that you had made a part 2 xD

16F jerk is evil T.T Evil to the point that I am going to ask this: Is swearing permitted on Shrine Maiden?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 01:14:07 AM
I want to state early on that most people don't like spoilers. This is a rather fun RPG, and part of the fun is wondering which touhou you'll run into next. Try not to ruin that by not mentioning any character past the second page (first 16) by name. Use
[spoiler.]spoiler tags[/spoiler.]
by removing the periods or some creative censor instead.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 01:14:25 AM
xDxD Thats hilarious... Level 99 on Rabites of all things xD Also kinda funny, I saw the first part got locked so I made a part 2, then I saw that you had made a part 2 xD

16F jerk is evil T.T Evil to the point that I am going to ask this: Is swearing permitted on Shrine Maiden?

You mean these forums? Of course it is, otherwise, how else would people refer to captain motherfucking whats her name (not sure how she got that name though to be honest). Just don't do it in a disrespectful way towards another user or whatever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 01:18:44 AM
So if I were to say that a boss in a game was a "F***ing prick", minus the censoring I did, that would be ok?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 01:29:54 AM
You mean these forums? Of course it is, otherwise, how else would people refer to captain motherfucking whats her name (not sure how she got that name though to be honest). Just don't do it in a disrespectful way towards another user or whatever.
You must have not been reading the thread from the day UFO was being released, ehehehe  :V

This. It's not just some giant grind wall you'll have to deal with. But one with virtually no new trash to speed it up. You'll be fighting trash balanced towards level 240 Reimu or so...until like level 450. At which point it's probably STILL your grind area of choice. The game is great, but they really should expect the player to not have to grind so much before new bosses at 30. They aren't even difficult unless you level, it's "I 1shot your entire party until you level up 200 levels first" kind of difficult. It's like being forced to hit level 99 in Secret of mana via killing rabites
Kind of surprising, considering how well balanced the rest of the game is... even though around 16F you have to grind a bit IMO, making some of the later parts of the game need grinding is a cool thing, helps make sure you get your ass kicked a little bit. Plus, you can try doing the bosses at lower levels then recommended for extra challenge. Its really nice.

Although, that 30F grind wall is just ridiculous. And is there any point to beating the Plus Disk final boss more then once, other then the fact that it gets harder? And how much worse does it get, anyway? Just wondering. I mean, the person whose beaten it over 15 times... damn.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 01:32:35 AM
I'm not a mod so I don't really want to tell you what's acceptable behaviour. But I've never seen anybody get in trouble for cursing without disrespecting another user before. If you're talking to another user, you can probably get in trouble if you swear or not if what you say isn't endearing. Letty likes it if you say she has no personality for example >=P, or whatever that line was Elixir said.

You can check out the forum rules and guidelines here:
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=17.0

I see no mention about swearing or cursing.

Let's try to re-rail this though since it is a brand new thread.
ummm...

Nitori sucks (I'm joking! that's just bait >=P).

No seriously, in case new members don't know, there IS a wiki for this game (which is currently in development, but it has oodles of good info still)

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou

You can download the 2.4 patch for this game at: http://www.mediafire.com/?mzdgl54mxmi
(Garlyle's upload I think, thank him)

Install order is:
game, plus disk, 2.4 patch, translation patch.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 01:47:05 AM
You must have not been reading the thread from the day UFO was being released, ehehehe  :V
Kind of surprising, considering how well balanced the rest of the game is... even though around 16F you have to grind a bit IMO, making some of the later parts of the game need grinding is a cool thing, helps make sure you get your ass kicked a little bit. Plus, you can try doing the bosses at lower levels then recommended for extra challenge. Its really nice.

Although, that 30F grind wall is just ridiculous. And is there any point to beating the Plus Disk final boss more then once, other then the fact that it gets harder? And how much worse does it get, anyway? Just wondering. I mean, the person whose beaten it over 15 times... damn.

No point other than personal satisfaction, as far as I know. You just get more of his equipment drop.

It's the most disappointing final boss ever. There is NO story leading up to it at ALL. It doesn't even have a proper name! The only dialogue we get before the fight is Marisa commenting on how it looks weak. The dialogue after, I'd bet, is also completely anti climactic and lame. There is NO drive to beat it other than to beat it. There are NO rewards except the personal trophy of being able to say you wasted enough time to beat a generic boss with super beefed stats. I am 99% certain this is the game maker's way of trolling you. That last percent goes to a hopefully satisfying conclusion post-fight.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 01:52:53 AM
Btw, what is the name of the circle that made this game anyway? The english name if it has one please. I check their webpage and it doesn't even seem to be in Japanese, anybody know if they are up to something new? I kinda wanna try out anything new they make if they make it (I know labyrinth is new so they wont have anything other than a trial of anything new they make, and probably not even that, but still).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 10, 2010, 02:04:03 AM
Btw, what is the name of the circle that made this game anyway? The english name if it has one please. I check their webpage and it doesn't even seem to be in Japanese, anybody know if they are up to something new? I kinda wanna try out anything new they make if they make it (I know labyrinth is new so they wont have anything other than a trial of anything new they make, and probably not even that, but still).

(c)2009 偽英国紳士団 3ペソ

Brigade of Fake English Gentlemen / 3peso
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 02:10:49 AM
Thanks, name looks Japanese enough. I wouldn't be able to tell if that's Kanji or some other language, but I see Peso is spelled in Hiragana/katakana I recognize.

Guess I just need a special font to see the website, it gives me garbage characters, boxes and numbers and such.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 04:40:25 AM
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza!
Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 04:50:26 AM
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza!
Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?
About Djinn Storm... well, not much you CAN do. Characters with high SP recovery and/or low cost skills help, like Chen and Minoriko. Also, if you aren't at least around Reimu Lv75, you'll probably be raped by her attacks later on, so aim for that at a minimum before trying.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 05:14:16 AM
For the love of cookies, pop and pizza!
Yukari Yakumo the freaking murderer of me to many times! WTF am I supposed to do about her Djinn Storm and IN Barrier or whatever it's called!?

She's just plain hard. Good luck >=P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 05:24:10 AM
Quote
least around Reimu Lv75

My Reimu is Lv85, and I can't win that fight...

Yukari, as I said, is freaking cheap. Her 2nd stage is Hell-ish due to debuffs and Djinn Storm having murked us SP-wise. Chen is useless by Stage 3, Flight of Idaten will deal 700~ damage at best after Yukari's Buff. Mesh of Light & Dark > A spell I can't remember > Mesh of Light & Dark > Game Over. the 1st Mesh either kills or causes PAR, the 2nd spell weakens and the 2nd Mesh kills the chars who got hit by the PAR effect... WTF!

How much HP does she even have, Total and per Stage, any tips for her ???

*sigh* I need a break from this T-T
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 06:29:56 AM
Reisen goddammit. Debuffs > Yukari.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 06:32:08 AM
Reisen goddammit. Debuffs > Yukari.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention this. She has 0 debuff resistance, and can be hit by PAR sometimes as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 06:47:41 AM
Eh, I tried debuffing her myself but her buff seemed to override it completely. still +50% to everything regardless of how low she was before I recall.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 10, 2010, 07:11:09 AM
Overbuff 15F to 500%, kill the boss before she can even Djinn storm. :D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 07:21:07 AM
Who should I drop then?? I have Remilia, Reimu, Sanae, Marisa, Meiling, Flandre, Tenshi, Patchy, Chen, Alice, Ran and Wriggle as my party of 12. I have every char available right now. I even tried Tenshi's SoR to kill her Buff, only half of it was removed, ATK, DEF and EVD to be exact T-T

How in the name of Coca-Cola and cookies do I do THAT!? If it's a joke then... I can't over buff her past 300% before the buffers get pwnt(playing along with joke) xD If you actually meant for me to do that, then explain plox :3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 10, 2010, 07:24:46 AM
Question: I really don't want to use
Flandre
. Is it possible to complete the game without her, or is use of her flat-out manditory as many of you seem to be making her out to be?

EDIT:
Quote
Nitori sucks (I'm joking! that's just bait >=P).
I don't think that's really baiting when I'm literally the only person who seems to disagree with that opinion. =V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 07:49:55 AM
Answer:
Flandre is completly optional in obtaining, but if you want to progress into the Plus Disk you need to beat her. Even then, nothing is forcing you to use her. I use her cause she has INSANE ATK growth and great MAG growth, which for a Composite Attacker like her those growths both matter, and those growths let her cause insane dmg. My Remi can deal about 24k~ with Spear and a full ATK buff while Flandre can do that with NO buff, just by using Starbow Break.
Not forced to obtain, and if obtained, not forced to use.

Side note: I don't think Nitori sucks either, she just doesn't seem all that good either. At the time I used her Linear Gun, 10k while Marisa's Master Spark dealt 30k, and Remilia's Spear the Gungnir dealt 13k~, with Curse thats about 19k-20k. Now that my Spark does about 40k to semi-MYS resitant foes, and like 53k+ to alot of others, I may test Nitori again for a dmg comparison.

Nitori is great until her stats show up, then she could be called nerfed, she has great potential with her moves, but her stats ruin the capability... how sad :(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 10, 2010, 08:03:09 AM
Flan
is too good to not use. Kinda like Patchy. My first play didn't use Patchy and I struggled every floor until I restarted.

Obv 500% buff was achieved by cheating :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 10, 2010, 08:52:33 AM
16F boss fight spoilers.

16F is actually not very hard at all, but you need very specific information (and a calculator, but I'm sure you have one by now) to make her a cakewalk. I beat her with Reimu at Lv. 78, and probably could've done it lower if I wanted.

Key information:
-Very high (or complete?) PAR resistance
-Very low stat-debuff resistance
-Very resistant to SPI
-Very weak to NTR
-650k HP
-All her attacks are magic based.
-She can use NTR (Sakura Blizzard) and MYS (Piercing Light) attacks, but her most dangerous attacks by far are WND (Flying Insect's Nest) and SPI (everything else that's elemental).
-Uses Djinn Storm -> Barrier Change (DEF+MND Up 50%) at 400k HP, Barrier change changes her to her second form.
-Second form unlocks Objective Barrier (Multi-target SPI attack, lowers DEF and MND) and Charming Quadruple Barrier (Multi-target SPI attack, lowers ATK and MAG)
-Uses Djinn Storm -> Barrier Change at 200k HP. Barrier change changes her to her third form.
-Right after changing to her third form, she will use IN Quadruple Barrier (All stats Up 100%), then spam Mesh of Light and Darkness (strong multi-target SPI attack) and Hyperactive Flying Object(strong multi-target non-elemental attack). THIS POINT SHOULD NOT MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST.

More detailed strategy:

First matter is surviving her. As said, WND and SPI are the attacks you should be most afraid of. I generally suggest using two tanks in your first two slots, and giving them the best SPI, WND and MND equipment you have, since quite a few of her attacks are row-based. After that, pick another 4 or so characters who can survive a magic onslaught and pump their SPI and MND up. Try to make sure the two tanks + 2 of these 4 characters are always at the front when Yukari gets a turn, so that you can take her magic attacks decently. I heavily suggest Reimu, Minoriko, Sanae and Ran among these 4, so you can keep them out and keep them buffing and healing everyone if needed, especially during form 2 when Yukari likes to debuff your MND with Objective Barrier. Have those 4 buff defenses, and bring Reisen along as well to nerf Yukari's MAG and SPD and you should have no problems surviving her attacks in forms 1 and 2. Yukari might do a move that heals all her stat-debuffs; if she does, just bring Reisen out again (carefully) to debuff her again.

Djinn Storm isn't hard to deal with if you're expecting it. When she's close to 400k HP, put a fresh Discarder on her and make sure she's -50% in MAG and SPD especially, choose 2 members who you think can recover SP the fastest/use little of it to function (Minoriko excels here), beat her down past the threshold, then bring out those 4 and buff everyone's MND before Djinn Storm goes out. After it does, focus like mad, heal/rebuff if you need to, survive a few more turns, Discarder her again once Reisen gets enough SP, and regain your momentum.

Attacking wise, as stated earlier, she's extremely weak to NTR. She also has very high MND, so most magic will not work well; Kaguya's and Patchouli's MND piercing can work okay if you must. Suwako is heavily, heavily recommended for this fight; it's very much possible to break 100k damage using Croaking Frog if you've been spending some of your bonuses on her ATK, and with some ATK buffs during the fight. Otherwise, bring your offensive powerhouses, preferably those who are relatively quick as well; Suika, Chen, Flandre, etc. But keep them heavily protected as they're important for the end; don't ever let them be in the front 4 when Yukari's about to attack, especially since during her second form, she can nerf your attackers' ATK and MAG if you keep them out. I also highly suggest only using one offensive character to throw attacks at her occasionally, and leave the other ones in reserve at all times, using Ran to buff their ATK.

If you couldn't tell by the above, the key part of beating Yukari easily is NOT LETTING HER BARRIER CHANGE TO HER THIRD FORM. Gank her HARD before she can do it. Ping her down to as close to 200k as possible, use Ran to raise everyone's ATK stats while she's soaking up magic hits throughout the whole battle, so that your attackers should have +60% (except whoever you chose to ping Yukari down) and make sure Reisen's brought her DEF, MND and SPD down to -30-50% (takes quite a few discarders thanks to her Barrier Change buff at 400k HP). When she's close to 200k HP, wait for her to use a long-delay move like Sakura Blizzard, then bring out all your big attackers (or Kaguya, who can make your best attacker go twice) in all your slots and blast her down before she gets her next turn. In my case, Suwako's Croaking Frog -> Kaguya's Buddha's Stone Bowl on Suwako -> Suwako's Croaking Frog again often did enough by itself; put other big attackers with ATK boosts in the other two slots should make it a certainty. And even if you can't gank her completely, you'll have lowered her HP by so much that you only need to survive and DD her slightly for her last form to beat her for good; and it also helps that she spends the two turns after Djinn Storm buffing herself only, giving you time to recover SP for a last hurrah.

If you follow this ganking method, you generally shouldn't have any problems and the fight is actually fairly quick and painless; I ended up farming her for her Gran Grimoire drop.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 10, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
Flan
is too good to not use. Kinda like Patchy. My first play didn't use Patchy and I struggled every floor until I restarted.
I'm using Patchy. >.>

I don't want to use that particular character because the drawbacks really turn me away. Even if she doesn't reduce everyone's active meter by far too much, she deals damage to herself in a game that has very little leeway for such things.

EDIT:
Quote
I don't think Nitori sucks either, she just doesn't seem all that good either. At the time I used her Linear Gun, 10k while Marisa's Master Spark dealt 30k, and Remilia's Spear the Gungnir dealt 13k~, with Curse thats about 19k-20k. Now that my Spark does about 40k to semi-MYS resitant foes, and like 53k+ to alot of others, I may test Nitori again for a dmg comparison.
Just keep in mind the differences in skill points. My Nitori has 40 invested in her attack (and Marisa has the same in her magic) and both deal perfectly acceptable damage.

Also remember that Master Spark eats up all remaining SP for extra damage while Nitori's is a flat-88 price. While that seems like an obvious reminder, it still means it's easy for Marisa to overpower Nitori since most will be letting it loose with more than just the bare minimum required to activate the spell.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 10:18:05 AM
Flan is one of my top 3 fave Touhou characters, but I decided not to use her. I just didn't think she'd be useful for bosses. Yes she does patchy damage physically, without terrible speed. But unlike patchy, she has TERRIBLE defense AND mnd. She can't take a hit from anything at all without being launched into outer space. Those kind of defensive stats make her almost impossible to be the "MVP" of a boss fight IMO.

Now I haven't tried her so maybe she doesn't get clobbered all the time, but I really don't see how people can keep her alive for long during a boss when people think patchy gets killed easily (who is hard to kill for me because her mnd is so damn high she takes virtually 0 damage from all kinds of attacks, and physical ones tends to target the front row, except for row attacks, which she survives fine...Well, arrow rain and needle parade own her, those are the only 2 attacks I have seen do that so far though)

Flandre is however, the ultimate trash clearing power level character. THATS why people like her I think most of all. Nobody helps you grind levels faster than someone who can 1shot ko the entire enemy party, while moving first to do it too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 10, 2010, 10:30:11 AM
Flandre is however, the ultimate trash clearing power level character. THATS why people like her I think most of all. Nobody helps you grind levels faster than someone who can 1shot ko the entire enemy party, while moving first to do it too.
That's understandable. Especially in a game like this that mandates so much grinding once you hit floor ~12...

Personally though, I'm banking on a few of my characters including the upcoming
Orin
to be covering that, but I'll have to see since I only have your guys' words for it.

On that subject, I need a nickname for that character. Anyone have an idea for what ___bitch nickname to give her? I can't give her the obvious one since Chen is already around to kill the ambiguity, and someone else already has the ambiguous nickname "deathbitch".
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 10, 2010, 11:12:10 AM
I think the spoiler naming scheme is silly. Just use their name in the tag IMO.

Anyway I think I'll start theorycrafting tomorrow. First
step: find out if skillpoint costs can be derived from base stat growth. I think it's directly proportionate but figuring out the formula will be
neccesary.

Also does anybody know for fact the exact delay of moves? I mean I haven't tested yet to make sure but just off the top of my head it seems like most abilities and focus and attack cost half the bar exactly. Switching and low delay moves (such as ayas moves) cost a quarter, big delay moves like patchy 30sp nukes or asteroid belt cost 75 percent of the bar. Some cost all. Chens flight of whatever costs 1/8th.

Anyway I'll get the exact figures myself but I'd appreciate it if someone is aware of anything like smaller deviations from those catagories, maybe 45 percent or 52 etc. Should be easy enough to test using lvl 1 guys since they all have the same speed. But I just don't want
to be unaware of any possible exceptions.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 10, 2010, 01:26:17 PM
Flan is one of my top 3 fave Touhou characters, but I decided not to use her. I just didn't think she'd be useful for bosses. Yes she does patchy damage physically, without terrible speed. But unlike patchy, she has TERRIBLE defense AND mnd. She can't take a hit from anything at all without being launched into outer space. Those kind of defensive stats make her almost impossible to be the "MVP" of a boss fight IMO

my Flandre takes hits as well as Tenshi does now :[ I'm a terrible person.

Her skills are awesome, too bad they are delay hell...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 02:29:27 PM
Also does anybody know for fact the exact delay of moves? I mean I haven't tested yet to make sure but just off the top of my head it seems like most abilities and focus and attack cost half the bar exactly. Switching and low delay moves (such as ayas moves) cost a quarter, big delay moves like patchy 30sp nukes or asteroid belt cost 75 percent of the bar. Some cost all. Chens flight of whatever costs 1/8th.
The delays vary to whatever weird percents the maker wanted to use; just google translate the wiki if you want to see them. Although, I haven't checked to see if all characters have this information, I know at least most of them do.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww19.atwiki.jp%2Fth_maze%2F&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Look at "After using the gauge volume". If you can't tell who the character is from the translation name, you should be able to tell from the order they're in or by their stats/skills.

Also, after looking at japanese wiki, I believe that what I suspected is true;
Orin
's english wiki section messed up and said her two pure-physical attacks were MAG-based. Okay, now I kinda feel like trying her out on this playthrough~

Oh, and I also saw that they did indeed specifically fix the
Yukari/Kaguya infinite action bar combo
in the most recent patch. Eheheh~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 10, 2010, 03:19:02 PM
From here (http://pastebin.com/m4e7db07b)

Quote
#
ATB bar is 10000pts
#
Every battle tick increases it by 50 + sqrt(200*spd - 17500)
#
>10000 = turn, if multiple >10000, order goes from left->right on allies, then enemies
#
 
#
thus, 200spd is 2x as fast as 100, 300 is ~2.5x, 400 is 3x, etc

Using these details and CE, you *could* trial and error out all the delays for the various character's actions.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 04:15:38 PM
On the subject of a certain frail trash killer, she's GREAT for bosses. She is best used by being kept in reserve, and buffed using
Ran
to bring out for a suicide nuke. Her first spell is recommended unless the enemy has a weakness to fire. She even does well staying on the front row in the rightmost slot doing the same thing for as long as she lasts.

She is so much better once you EXPECT her to die, and any prolonged life is merely a bonus. It's reckless, but 400,000-to 10,000,000 (depends on where you are) free damage is niiiice, especially for bypassing a given boss's pissed phase.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Suikaismaiwaifu on January 10, 2010, 05:30:50 PM
Should I fight
Yuyuko or Mokou
first (lv 63 Reimu), because outside of her opening attack, she doesn't seem as bad as
Mokou
. I can just use equipment to withstand her Death inflictions. Or does she have ridiculous HP that requires me to grind more?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 10, 2010, 06:28:34 PM
You could handle the former about now, but the latter is rather dangerous. The former can use that opener semi-freely.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 10, 2010, 06:35:47 PM
Mapped 23F out.  That was fun.

24F...gimmick here seems cute.  Yay colored switches with no number indication on them and I have to figure it all out by trial and error?

At least the new battle music is pure awesome.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
Mapped 23F out.  That was fun.

24F...gimmick here seems cute.  Yay colored switches with no number indication on them and I have to figure it all out by trial and error?

At least the new battle music is pure awesome.

Red = one, green = 2, blue = 4. Altogether they make a maximum of 7. I'm not sure on the colors, but this should give you a general idea. There are gates right by them to experiment with.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Matsuri on January 10, 2010, 06:43:36 PM
All right, after seeing that the last thread got 1000 posts so fast, I figured this must be worth looking into. I already got everything set up, and it's just like Etrian Odyssey, which I'm rather excited to see.

Anyway, can someone give me some basic tips and pointers on how to start off properly? I did a quick playthrough of 1F and got my ass kicked rather fast-- and I don't really feel like reading 37 pages worth of posts just to get tips on how to start ^^;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Suikaismaiwaifu on January 10, 2010, 06:48:20 PM
I have to say, for such a simple game, this is very fun and well made. Just goes to show why I love doujin games so much. I hope they plan to expand this; maybe Labyrinth of Touhou 2 (there are certainly enough characters for it).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 06:50:15 PM
All right, after seeing that the last thread got 1000 posts so fast, I figured this must be worth looking into. I already got everything set up, and it's just like Etrian Odyssey, which I'm rather excited to see.

Anyway, can someone give me some basic tips and pointers on how to start off properly? I did a quick playthrough of 1F and got my ass kicked rather fast. ^^;
Okay. For starters, the Attack command is pathetically weak and only good for finishing off something nearly dead.  Use skills. Characters in reserve or using Focus will recover some SP, and when your party is getting weak, return to Gensokyo. Also, never, EVER run into a purple face event without saving first, the bosses are not easy unless you overlevel.

The bonuses you get when you level up, or spend skillpoints on something, are a % bonus. So, you want to concentrate on a characters better stats; for lvl-up bonuses, just stick with their most important stat. With skill points you can share the love on all the stats, but... a character's better stats are still most important.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Matsuri on January 10, 2010, 06:55:40 PM
Yeah, learned the purple-face thing the hard way. Meiling ruined me :(

All right then, good to know. I wondered why attacks were hopelessly weak.

If skills are the way to go, is it best to keep leveling up SP instead of other stuff? Also, what is TP?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 06:56:20 PM
All right, after seeing that the last thread got 1000 posts so fast, I figured this must be worth looking into. I already got everything set up, and it's just like Etrian Odyssey, which I'm rather excited to see.

Anyway, can someone give me some basic tips and pointers on how to start off properly? I did a quick playthrough of 1F and got my ass kicked rather fast-- and I don't really feel like reading 37 pages worth of posts just to get tips on how to start ^^;

Take your time. Take baby steps. Go back to Gensokyo the moment things look even a little hairy, and try to explore the entire map before attempting bosses to assure you're up to speed.

Second, don't be afraid to devote time to leveling. You don't need to do this hardcore until much later, but small 1 or 2 "back to gensokyo" trips worth at a time should do for now.

Third, use strategy. There are very few things a proper team structure can't do. Put your tanks in the leftmost slot, and keep your more frail ones on the right. Rotate members out to take advantage of their uses. AVOID THE EVADE STAT, IT DOES NOT WORK. And above all, it isn't over until it is over. Don't ever lose hope over 3 of your 12 man party getting rolled. Try until the very last strike. This game has a habit of forcing very close calls on you.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Suikaismaiwaifu on January 10, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
All right, after seeing that the last thread got 1000 posts so fast, I figured this must be worth looking into. I already got everything set up, and it's just like Etrian Odyssey, which I'm rather excited to see.

Anyway, can someone give me some basic tips and pointers on how to start off properly? I did a quick playthrough of 1F and got my ass kicked rather fast-- and I don't really feel like reading 37 pages worth of posts just to get tips on how to start ^^;

Probably the most important thing to know is BUFF AND DEBUFF! Pretty much every boss battle relies on your ability to buff and debuff. Don't expect to win just because you have characters with high HP and can deal damage. Even if you over level, debuffs and buffs are critical in every boss fight past floor 2.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 07:19:55 PM
And no, don't spend level-up bonuses on SP. Its not worth it, and you'll have plenty of SP after you get some more characters. With level-up bonuses, I'd recommend to just stick completely to one stat on a character, their most important. For most characters this is either ATK or MAG, but on the big tanks of the game, you might go for HP/DEF/MND (depending on who it is.)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 07:23:38 PM
TP is a character's "motivation." It determines how long that character can last in the dungeon. You finish battles and lose TP depending on your remaining HP. Run out of TP, the character leaves, which is similiar to them dying. They'll be with you again on your next trip in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 10, 2010, 07:28:59 PM
I got 100 items on my game but I'm not getting the star for it. Does anyone know what's wrong?

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 07:35:50 PM
I got 100 items on my game but I'm not getting the star for it. Does anyone know what's wrong?
Beat the final boss again and the star will trigger.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 10, 2010, 07:55:57 PM
Red = one, green = 2, blue = 4. Altogether they make a maximum of 7. I'm not sure on the colors, but this should give you a general idea. There are gates right by them to experiment with.
Yeah, I kinda figured that was the case after testing the red crystal, going through what I assumed correctly opened up, ran into the Tearose Sigil guardian on complete accident, and promptly got my ass handed to me.

But anyways, mapped out what I could on 24F, went to 25F, mapped what I could, now at a point where it looks like I need to grind to proceed due to their being 4 magic circles all requiring a Sigil Guardian to be defeated.

Wonder which Sigil Guardian is the easiest to take out first (If anything at this point can be considered easy  ;D).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 10, 2010, 08:09:34 PM
What am I suppose to do after I unseal mari? Am I suppose to beat her? Am I suppose to be level 250?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 08:12:02 PM
Yeah, I kinda figured that was the case after testing the red crystal, going through what I assumed correctly opened up, ran into the Tearose Sigil guardian on complete accident, and promptly got my ass handed to me.

But anyways, mapped out what I could on 24F, went to 25F, mapped what I could, now at a point where it looks like I need to grind to proceed due to their being 4 magic circles all requiring a Sigil Guardian to be defeated.

Wonder which Sigil Guardian is the easiest to take out first (If anything at this point can be considered easy  ;D).

I suggest the one on floor 22 first, floor 25 second, and burninator/baal avatar last. Grind floor 25 until you beat all of them, I forget which one goes onward.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Suikaismaiwaifu on January 10, 2010, 08:24:48 PM
Is Tenshi worth it? I haven't put her in my party because, despite her high DEF and MND, her HP isn't high and her attacks aren't all that damaging. I find Komachi and Remilia to be better tanks and I hear that later on there are a lot of enemies and bosses that have DEF / MND piercing attacks.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on January 10, 2010, 08:28:22 PM
Does someone know if there is a way to make it easier to collect the 100 items on the first 10 pages? I mean, I was trying to do it to get my third star, but it's extremely hard to get the drops from the enemies even in the earlier floors. Is there not some kind of equipment that raises your luck, or something similar?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 08:29:18 PM
Is Tenshi worth it? I haven't put her in my party because, despite her high DEF and MND, her HP isn't high and her attacks aren't all that damaging. I find Komachi and Remilia to be better tanks and I hear that later on there are a lot of enemies and bosses that have DEF / MND piercing attacks.

Honestly, I never did see very many of those attacks.
later game tank with low HP >_>
is an excellent tank throughout it seems, even if I dropped her past floor 22.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 10, 2010, 10:33:35 PM
And no, don't spend level-up bonuses on SP. Its not worth it, and you'll have plenty of SP after you get some more characters.
I'm not so sure I agree on this. Some characters like Chen and Youmu really need the SP boost due to their own terrible SP growths, not to mention more SP generally = being able to stay out longer in boss fights before having to be benched. This is important for characters like Ran, who are pretty much there entirely to use their buffs whenever they're currently in the active party.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2010, 10:58:25 PM
I'm not so sure I agree on this. Some characters like Chen and Youmu really need the SP boost due to their own terrible SP growths, not to mention more SP generally = being able to stay out longer in boss fights before having to be benched. This is important for characters like Ran, who are pretty much there entirely to use their buffs whenever they're currently in the active party.
The thing is, if they have a terrible SP growth, then the SP boost will also be quite terrible. You'll have better results boosting a different stat.

And with your example of Chen; around the time bosses are quite tough, you'll often be switching Chen out before she runs out of SP anyway... and at the final boss, with no SP boost aside from skill points she'll have enough to Idaten spam with 2 supplementary kimontonkous thrown in before she switches out.

Its a possible choice for Ran, yes, but with basically everyone else it's simply not worth it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 10, 2010, 11:11:59 PM
How do you kill the terrigam thing for mari v2?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 10, 2010, 11:15:16 PM
How do you kill the terrigam thing for mari v2?

You nuke it once it loses it's invulnerability. Simple.

Now stop revealing names. Not all of us are to that point.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 11, 2010, 01:02:19 AM
How do you know when it loses invulnerability?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 11, 2010, 01:30:14 AM
I think it's after the first Rankain. If you are unsure, just throw an attack at it anyway. See if numbers show up. If they do, pull out the big guns you've been saving.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 11, 2010, 02:18:55 AM
WEWT!
I beat Yukari! I slipped up a few times and things were looking baaaad, but then I pull out Flandre, I have her use Starbow Break JUST before Yukari gets a turn and kills me, Starbow dealt around 56k or so, winning the fight :toot:, reducing me to insanly histaricle laughter as well as tears of happiness ;D I also got her drop :) Now for the boss on 18F... once I get their:P
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 11, 2010, 02:20:35 AM
Thanks a lot Milky. I managed to take her down with Reimu at level 226. Pretty happy about it. It's been a long time since I've played a game where I end up being satisfied with killing a boss.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 11, 2010, 02:41:42 AM
Thanks a lot Milky. I managed to take her down with Reimu at level 226. Pretty happy about it. It's been a long time since I've played a game where I end up being satisfied with killing a boss.

Grats.  :V

Have fun with your new characters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 11, 2010, 02:47:08 AM
How do I get to floor 21?

I have 6 stars now but there's no down stairs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 11, 2010, 04:22:54 AM
You installed the plus disk, right? There's a tile sticking out of the path just under the final boss?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 11, 2010, 05:17:17 AM
From here (http://pastebin.com/m4e7db07b)

Using these details and CE, you *could* trial and error out all the delays for the various character's actions.

Wow, this will save a heap of time, thank you very much! (sorry for slow reply, been busyish today). I notice some abilities which cost strange amounts of your guage (such as marisa's row attack, 45). This would have been a *PAIN* to figure out exactly.

The speed formula is also nice too >=)

I'm confused by this part here, anybody get it exactly:
Quote
on join, all stat multipliers are 100% (exception is remilia atk at 84%).

I'm not sure if this multiplier is already factored into Remi's stats in the status screen, or if it only gets applied during battle, or what. I always thought it was strange how Remi starts off so feeble early game (damage wise), and picks up shortly without really favoring her over anybody else's attack stats.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 11, 2010, 05:25:47 AM
You installed the plus disk, right? There's a tile sticking out of the path just under the final boss?

I don't see any tile. I'm playing version 2.04 and I should have the plus disc.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 11, 2010, 05:29:40 AM
I just somehow beat
Flandre.  The fight went well at the beginning, until a unexpected Forbidden Fruit killed Reimu.  A 2nd one in a row ended up killing Sanae too, leaving mostly without revival, not counting Meling.  Meling and Tenshi were tanking for most of the end, Switching in Chen to do some attacks, and out again before the next turn Flan got.  Got rather close after Meling died, due to Flan getting a double turned, Leaving a paralyzed Tenshi.  Basicly after that went Tenshi switched in Chen, Tenshi Focused while Chen attacked, until she got enough SP to do her buff, while Chen switched herself out before Flan got a turn.  Was one or 2 close calls at that point, especially once when I misjudged if Chen would get a turn, but luckily Flan decided to use Starbow Break that turn, on Tenshi.

Otherwise
I just tricked you into wasting time reading a useless spoiler tag here.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 11, 2010, 11:42:53 AM
Figured out that blurb about remi. It just means that her starting attack is just 1 higher than that of someone with an atk growth of 13 instead of her 16.

As for mr lvl ups in sp. I think it's a bad idea to spend lvl ups in sp because skillpoints seem to provide more than enough. And later on you will find that your sp is limited by djinn storm and destroy magic more than actual consumption. Once you pick a stat for your level up you can't undo ever. due to the player never getting new spells every character will inevitably reach a point where sp is a non issue.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 11, 2010, 01:09:55 PM
Something that needs testing. Actual sp recovery.

My twinked out 15F with 4k sp recovers only 20 when focusing in battle. Before the twink, she recovered 32 at 900 sp. I'm sure we're being lied to here.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 11, 2010, 02:04:29 PM
Something that needs testing. Actual sp recovery.

My twinked out 15F with 4k sp recovers only 20 when focusing in battle. Before the twink, she recovered 32 at 900 sp. I'm sure we're being lied to here.

Someone who hacked a Marisa with 260k SP only recovers 40 SP using Focus.

It's not related to SP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 11, 2010, 06:23:15 PM
My youmu with 300 SP and 60 recovery (100%+ thanks to her ability) recovers full. Interesting, I kinda thought something was up when my 3000 SP Alice wasn't getting anywhere near 20%.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 11, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
I've noticed this behaviour too. However I just assumed that sp recovery is based off of your character's base sp, before leveling growths (if any), and skillpoint assignments, and equipment and such. I'm not sure if any of you guys noticed, but I also notice that skillpoints tend to add a wonky amount of sp too. I mean it's like skillpoints give more sp than you'd expect. So without all themskillpoints, your sp is probably pretty low.

However that theory is probably wrong too. Pesco's link mentions that sp recovery is capped at 2X recovery%.

Looking at the link further, it lacks info on the delay on all the moves past page one. And this info will be nearly impossible and time consuming to get accurately. Does anybody know how people got this information to begin with? Such as skill formulas and such as well? I really don't think it was obtained by analyzing gameplay behaviour. If there is just some kind of source code or doc I can view it'd make it much easier I rekon.

update:

derp, just noticed delays were on the Japanese wiki, just after noticing, I noticed someone told me that on page 1, derp derp.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 11, 2010, 09:08:36 PM
Reimu lv195 right now.  Grinded up some on 20F.  25F mobs are obviously a bit too much for me ATM.  24F mobs I can handle in most cases...but Demon King's Armour?  I basically need Alice's Little Legion spell to debuff their DEF enough so someone other than my 18F character can actually do more than 0 damage.  Fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 11, 2010, 11:59:37 PM
Reimu lv195 right now.  Grinded up some on 20F.  25F mobs are obviously a bit too much for me ATM.  24F mobs I can handle in most cases...but Demon King's Armour?  I basically need Alice's Little Legion spell to debuff their DEF enough so someone other than my 18F character can actually do more than 0 damage.  Fun.

They're one of those "you have to have a defense ignore attack to hurt me" mobs. So:
Rumia's dark side of the moon, Kaggy's fire rat robe, cowrie shell (this one is best imo), hourai barrage, yuugi's ko in 3 steps doesn't ignore defense completely but it's really good at punching thru it, nitori's megawatt canon, Autumn harvest' lady's first spell also ignores MOST defense (but it's a feeble spell regardless), you get the idea.

I understand if you don't want to have one of those characters if you don't use them already just for one mob. But you might want to start doing so anyway because floor 27 has these crabs that take pretty much 0 damage from anything debuffs or not unless it ignores defense, and floor 27 is *THE* level grind floor
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 12, 2010, 06:51:32 AM
Let's see how they like a permanent 1000% debuff :P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 12, 2010, 01:21:58 PM
lol Lv1600 and still going

29/100 times

I like being cryptic
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 12, 2010, 01:36:23 PM
Wewt!
I am on 18F an wandering, but oh well, I'm on 18F, once I beat the boss I'll get a star, every non plus disk char:D

Also Inaba Tewi/Pes Con't Go/Pesco, may I ask why you keep changing your visable name? I personally liked the name Pesco :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 12, 2010, 01:55:53 PM
My name is normally Pesco. Kilga changed it to fit with some silly theme. Tewi got bored of it and took over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 12, 2010, 05:51:38 PM
They're one of those "you have to have a defense ignore attack to hurt me" mobs. So:
Rumia's dark side of the moon, Kaggy's fire rat robe, cowrie shell (this one is best imo), hourai barrage, yuugi's ko in 3 steps doesn't ignore defense completely but it's really good at punching thru it, nitori's megawatt canon, Autumn harvest' lady's first spell also ignores MOST defense (but it's a feeble spell regardless), you get the idea.

I understand if you don't want to have one of those characters if you don't use them already just for one mob. But you might want to start doing so anyway because floor 27 has these crabs that take pretty much 0 damage from anything debuffs or not unless it ignores defense, and floor 27 is *THE* level grind floor
Sounded like a good plan, so I took out Patchy whom I was testing out to see if should could damage those enemies in question (Failed xD), put in
Kaguya
, leveled her up some, spent some serious skill points on her, and...god damn not only does she wipe those enemies out like nothing,
Hourai Barrage
pretty much rips apart anything on 24F except for the flaming skulls of evil and their nasty Exhalatio attack. 

Just had to boost my 18F character's SPD as well so Remi had an extra hand in dealing with Evil Jewels (Dual Colored Light is just mean!), the other nasty enemy if they come in pairs.

I can now pretty much take out most, if not all, enemy formations on 24F.

Also, said character I added is the reason I managed to defeat the final Bloodstained Seal boss on 1F.  Took a few tries to figure that out since the physical immune side was usually the last one left standing and it would suddenly pull its "I win" spell out and kill everyone.

Imagine the surprise I had when
Kaguya's Hourai Barrage
damaged them both.  I was assuming the magic part was going to be hit for 0 dmg.  Guess one part just has massive def, the other massive mnd.

With that spell being spammed (Reinforced by 18F character's awesome buff) plus some smart thinking, it didn't take long to kill both (At once no less :P!).

Got my 5th star as well.  Now Final Boss Ver2 is available to fight.  Joy.

Back to 24F grinding for now.  Hopefully won't be too long before I can take out the 22F Sigil Guardian.

My attempt I tried today after a small grind session for lulzs failed more or less because it outlasted me.  Must have a lot of HP.

Reimu lv205 ATM.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 12, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
Floor 22 gaurdian should have been possible 50 levels ago. For a plus disk boss, it's damage output is HORRIBLE. However, the fight lasted 20 minutes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 12, 2010, 08:16:08 PM
Floor 22 gaurdian should have been possible 50 levels ago. For a plus disk boss, it's damage output is HORRIBLE. However, the fight lasted 20 minutes.
it has dth attacks though I recall. Still shouldn't be too much of a prob though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 13, 2010, 03:54:57 AM
I need your halp :(
The boss on 18F, any hints, tips or strats for dealing with said foe? I already attempted the fight, and it went horribly wrong, at a scary fast rate...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 13, 2010, 05:10:07 AM
I need your halp :(
The boss on 18F, any hints, tips or strats for dealing with said foe? I already attempted the fight, and it went horribly wrong, at a scary fast rate...

Level to 90-100 first and foremost.

Got that done? Excellent. Now it's time for strategy, which can't be too specific since no two fights will end up the same. Here's a bunch of tips;

Status ailment resistances. Love them. A ribbon should be in your possession. Give it to Remilia. Enjoy your drawback-less curse and go to town. Make sure everyone has some sort of resistance to all ailments, since this boss will use each one against you. (SIL for ice form, PAR for WND/thunder form, PSN for NTR, and DTH for SPI) Naturally, you also want your affinities up if you can manage it.

You want a tank or two, for sure. Hong can cure ailments if she doesn't get hit with them first, but the floor 10 tank stalls better. More importantly, you want power. You can reduce damage all you want and tank, heal, and last a long time, but it won't mean a thing if you sacrifice damage output for it. It makes no sense, but my troubles with this fight was over when I focused on powering through as fast as I can, specifically having a few members handle each phase to take advantage of their weaknesses.

The final form is like his first + a huge buff in stats. Nuke it down. A certain floor 15 character + the one we get from the end of floor 9 should be enough.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 13, 2010, 07:29:45 AM
Gah, I made a disturbing discovery for theorycrafting purposes...The cost to increase the skill level of a stat is not neccesarily related to the growth rate of the same stat. For example, in my new game Increasing marisa's speed skill level from 5 to 6 costed 33 (something like that, low 30s) skillpoints, for remi (who has 1 more growth per level) it costed 56.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 13, 2010, 07:34:04 AM
Gonna try graph all the stat costs for everyone?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 13, 2010, 10:30:19 AM
The thing is, if they have a terrible SP growth, then the SP boost will also be quite terrible. You'll have better results boosting a different stat.

And with your example of Chen; around the time bosses are quite tough, you'll often be switching Chen out before she runs out of SP anyway... and at the final boss, with no SP boost aside from skill points she'll have enough to Idaten spam with 2 supplementary kimontonkous thrown in before she switches out.

Its a possible choice for Ran, yes, but with basically everyone else it's simply not worth it.
Well, I've given most of my current roster of characters at least 5-10 levels of the boost to help with mob clearing (ones like Marisa run out of MP long before their TP drops out, which can be annoying when they're literally the only one that makes mincemeat out of the current floor's random mobs) and I'm sure as heck not going to throw away 15 floors of work just for a mistake I can easily just deal with.

Anyhow, mostly exploring and grinding floor 15 still (DFO has been distracting me... very easy to do when you have a good friend with a char at your level willing to play with you). I beat one of the sigil bosses on floor 14, but none of the mystic circles have been activated. Its a pretty annoying floor so far, so hopefully once I finish mapping it out I can tackle corpsebitch and the ___bitch I've been wanting for quite some time. Reimu is level 69 now, so I'm considering going back for firebitch, though the fact I've been struggling with boss fights since floor 1 makes me think I should grind a bit more before trying it; especially since I can't confirm if Marisa will be able to deliver that finishing Master Spark in time.

On the more spoiler note...
I'm noticing most bosses tend to be magic-based... Yuugi makes a lovely tank against mobs since she can take their hits, but against bosses she seems like little help... Should I drop her for Yuyuko or something later? Or does she have the HP to handle heavy magic bosses like Mokou?

Also, that one sigil leader on floor 14 that's all 3 of Alice's dolls is really annoying me... Do you have any advice for how to deal with it? I can't seem to beat its healer, so either I have to take it out before it heals or level enough that I can beat the heal with sheer damage output. I tried the former, but after prepping Marisa's Spark and letting it loose after it performs one heal, following up with Knockout in Three Steps, Silent Selene, and Megawatt, I still was unable to take it out before it healed, after which my SP on everyone not named Patchy was spent and there was no way I could do enough damage to compensate for the heal after... Also, while I was able to poison it with Yuugi's Unbreakable Shackles, either poison wears off after a while or the heal also cures it of status effects, because after the heal I found that it had lost the poisoning.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 13, 2010, 10:35:30 AM
Gonna try graph all the stat costs for everyone?

doubt it, I like theorycrafting, not data collection...which I'd probably be willing to do if I was good at it, alas I'm limited to saving and loading the game and looking at in-game menus... I'll check to
see if this is normal though, maybe remi is just a special case like her messed up attack at level1... Or maybe her SPF growth (or marisa's) on the wiki is false, I'll check that at least.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 13, 2010, 09:43:41 PM
doubt it, I like theorycrafting, not data collection...which I'd probably be willing to do if I was good at it, alas I'm limited to saving and loading the game and looking at in-game menus... I'll check to
see if this is normal though, maybe remi is just a special case like her messed up attack at level1... Or maybe her SPF growth (or marisa's) on the wiki is false, I'll check that at least.
I can tell you right now that it's not based off of growth rates; for example, all of the non-tp/affinity cost the exact same amount to level in the case of Cirno and Wriggle.

The growth rates are generally a good thing to make a guess off of though.

Still being lazy after exploring 9F on my second play. I want to pick up 9F optional right now, but at this level I'd need to abuse PAR to keep my damage dealers from being Multi-hit nuked, and I'm having a little trouble with 8F girl too, who has the best PAR attack. If I remember right, I beat 8F girl at this level on my first playthrough, so maybe soon...

I really, REALLY am not looking forward to 10~12F. Whee, procrastination :'(

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 13, 2010, 10:19:18 PM
I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...
Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 13, 2010, 10:23:48 PM
I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...
Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?
Random. The first few you kill will only take a fraction of their normal HP, however.

I lolabuse'd that boss with 10F girl by keeping her buff nice while switching in an appropriate Nuker or Healing person in and out. This can easily take over an hour, but it works, as long as you keep her buff up and she has at least 34 res. to all ailments.

It'll be... interesting when I reach 18F on my second playthrough, since I'm not using 10F this time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 13, 2010, 10:38:35 PM
I agree NeoSerela:) Do you have any advice for 18F, or is ailment resists, level 90-100+ and such all their is? Cause that seems to easy...
Also, does said boss on 18F have any particular order for forms? or is it random?

Nuke him out of his first form and save marisa for his lightning form. Have hong as your tank and don't attack him if he's in fire form. He's weakest as fire and you should use that chance to heal up and buff with ran.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 13, 2010, 11:16:38 PM
Nuke him out of his first form and save marisa for his lightning form. Have hong as your tank and don't attack him if he's in fire form. He's weakest as fire and you should use that chance to heal up and buff with ran.

Err, why save marisa for lightning form? Lightning form is weak to nature damage. Marisa will do extra damage to his spirit form (which is very light blue if I recall correctly).

I personally like to save marisa for his final form though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 14, 2010, 02:20:12 AM
Because his lighting for is his most dangerous form. As long as he isn't strong enough to kill anyone, he'll go down.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 14, 2010, 03:11:10 AM
Hmmm...
Lightning is what f***ed me over last time... he KO'ed everyone cept Reimu during that form and his 1st form, mostly lightning. Reimu died to the next form, spirit, but only due to haveing been under the effects of PAR for like 7~ of the bosses turns...

Can ailments kick in if the attack causing it does 0 Dmg? Cause whenever I was playing, and an ailment move was used and dealt a 0 the ailment never kicked in for allies and for foes.
Like Cirno's Diamond Blizzard for example, if it does a 0 the foe won't get hit with PAR, same for Wriggle and her Comet on Earth as well as Firefly Thingie, I have never had them Poison if they dealt 0, yet once they started causing Dmg, Poison was very common for me...

Also,
could someone tell me the SPD stat of the 18F boss, and any notable bosses that appear after? This includes the Final. If I know the SPD/Speed stat, then I know when I stand a good chance of beating that boss, level wise. Out run the boss with like 4+ chars by a decent amount, and you have practicly won:D

Thanks to everyone for you help thus far, I wouldn't have gotten this far this fast without your great input:D *offers cookies to everyone who has posted in this topic, 1st part and current part, so far.*
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 14, 2010, 03:16:03 AM
Can ailments kick in if the attack causing it does 0 Dmg? Cause whenever I was playing, and an ailment move was used and dealt a 0 the ailment never kicked in for allies and for foes.
Like Cirno's Diamond Blizzard for example, if it does a 0 the foe won't get hit with PAR, same for Wriggle and her Comet on Earth as well as Firefly Thingie, I have never had them Poison if they dealt 0, yet once they started causing Dmg, Poison was very common for me...

Also,
could someone tell me the SPD stat of the 18F boss, and any notable bosses that appear after? This includes the Final. If I know the SPD/Speed stat, then I know when I stand a good chance of beating that boss, level wise. Out run the boss with like 4+ chars by a decent amount, and you have practicly won:D
Ailments should still kick in if you deal 0 damage. Also, the speed is around 420~ if I remember right... I wouldn't count on trying to outspeed him, except maybe with Chen or Aya.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 14, 2010, 03:25:08 AM
I never really had problems with the floor 16 or 18 boss. Hong, reimu and that minokke or whatever is the team I used pretty much throughtout the entire game. Side note, use cirno. She along with reimu are exceeding good against most trash mobs. Both of them can aoe stun and with good recovery items can keep stunning while the other focuses. It should work very well on floor 19. For floor 20, use reimu, yuugi, cirno and patchy. It's easy exp with this team when you can't kill them normally.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 14, 2010, 10:22:33 AM
Yup, I was right... Firebitch managed to completely tear me apart despite being 5 levels over the reccomended amount and having Marisa's Spark in reserve for her special mode (she died long before I had a chance to let loose with the attack, even after bringing her out with plenty of time left on the boss's active gauge).

EDIT: I don't need advice, as I know the right way to fight her. The issue is likely in my strategy (I DID make the mistake of accidentally getting greenbitch killed fairly early in the fight, after all... and after a couple rounds I realized why using Megawatt and Knockout in Three Steps was an incredibly stupid idea).

EDIT2: Spoilerness because I need something addressed...
Is it normal for Eirin to be doing such crappy damage? Nitori could easily break 24,000 damage on Mokou with Illusion Waterfall, which I assumed was because Mokou is weak to CLD, but Eirin's Mercury Sea barely managed to do over 7000 damage to her. heck, I was eventually forced to reduce her to a healer and semi-tank since her damage output was so poor.

EDIT3: Beat her second try. Apparently Megawatt isn't actually fire-based (aquabitch must have been suffering from heavy attack reductions the first time to make me think it was, though Illusion Waterfall still hits the boss like a freaking freight train), and I discovered I did better when I prepped to weather the storm once rather than try to just beat it (after her indication move she gets herself half a meter back, while after she uses her nuke it empties completely, giving me enough time to Master Spark and Megawatt away what was apparently her last 90k-100k HP).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 14, 2010, 05:52:10 PM
Reimu lv206, still raging over floor 22 guardian.  When it decides to spam Ether Flare and Ultimate Light Cannon for 12-13k to all practically half or more of the turns it gets (Even with a proper defense buff in place), is ridiculously fast, and uses Destroy Magic every 3rd turn, it becomes a little too hard to try mounting any reliable offensive assault without having to swap to random junk characters to take the Destroy Magic casting :P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 14, 2010, 06:15:11 PM
EDIT2: Spoilerness because I need something addressed...
Is it normal for Eirin to be doing such crappy damage? Nitori could easily break 24,000 damage on Mokou with Illusion Waterfall, which I assumed was because Mokou is weak to CLD, but Eirin's Mercury Sea barely managed to do over 7000 damage to her. heck, I was eventually forced to reduce her to a healer and semi-tank since her damage output was so poor.

Mokou and Flan have really really bad defenses, the former especially if you stat-down her. Kappa's Illusionary Waterfall damage calculations specializes in doing large damage to low defense enemies, while Mercury Sea damage calculations is tuned towards doing better damage to high defense enemies, as well as being overall worse damage calcs to balance it having the ATK-down effect.

This actually tends to make Nitori the best CLD-element user for random encounters, since the majority of CLD-weak enemies are usually defensively weak too. Having a NTR attack for CLD-resistant groups and a reliable single-targetter helps too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 14, 2010, 09:03:19 PM
I wish the 2.05 patch was the official one instead of 2.04. Because apparently Nitori's Megawatt Gun only has
1.25((ATKx5)-(T.DEF/2) in 2.04 and below, instead of
1.25((ATKx8)-(T.DEF/2) in 2.05. Note that ATK multiplier.

That's the difference between a great attack and a great nuke.  :'( Still going to keep using her at LEAST until I get 15F girl, then I'll see how I like her so far.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 14, 2010, 09:21:56 PM
I wish the 2.05 patch was the official one instead of 2.04. Because apparently Nitori's Megawatt Gun only has
1.25((ATKx5)-(T.DEF/2) in 2.04 and below, instead of
1.25((ATKx8)-(T.DEF/2) in 2.05. Note that ATK multiplier.
I was wondering why Illusion Waterfall was hurting firebitch for so much more... D=

I still think she's a great character though, and even if its a tad nerfed compared to what we thought its still a good move for enemies with high defenses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 15, 2010, 12:17:06 AM
22F Sigil Guardian taken down with Reimu at lv219.  Go freaking figure luck wants to laugh in my face as I only saw Ether Flare and Ultimate Light Cannon one time each and Cry of Anguish was never used :P.

Nobody died thanks to having a pretty steady strategy that worked out like a charm.

Let's see what it unlocked so far...a ver 2 Bloodstained Seal boss on 21F and the southern circle on 25F which lead to treasure, but no sigil guardian.

...Let me guess, I'm gonna have to wipe out either the 21F or 24F Sigil Guardian, aren't I xD?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 15, 2010, 12:46:59 AM
22F Sigil Guardian taken down with Reimu at lv219.  Go freaking figure luck wants to laugh in my face as I only saw Ether Flare and Ultimate Light Cannon one time each and Cry of Anguish was never used :P.

Nobody died thanks to having a pretty steady strategy that worked out like a charm.

Let's see what it unlocked so far...a ver 2 Bloodstained Seal boss on 21F and the southern circle on 25F which lead to treasure, but no sigil guardian.

...Let me guess, I'm gonna have to wipe out either the 21F or 24F Sigil Guardian, aren't I xD?

I was pretty sure the floor 22 guardian did it, but yeah, looks like you're going after one of them now.

Burninator is easier, so stay away from floor 21 for now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tankatron on January 15, 2010, 01:25:42 AM
Maybe I'm cursed or something. Least I'm past those dreaded stairs now.

Well does anyone know if you need all the extra characters in order to fight the true 30F final boss? I can't find an item on floor 22 needed to get a certain character on F25. I check the spot but no luck and I get repelled by the barrier so I don't have it.

As long as I don't need her then it's all good.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 15, 2010, 01:32:27 AM
You do, because you're required to have all 40 characters before you can fight one of the midbosses on 30F, which you have to beat to get to the boss on 30F.

Also, there's no character on 25F.  If you're talking about 24F, are you sure you've checked the spot where the 22F item is?  (By which I mean, I'm expecting you to have checked a map that tells you where it is.)  If you haven't checked a map, and you're simply worried because you've explored 22F and haven't found the item, it's behind a sigil that you wouldn't have cleared the first time you explore 22F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tankatron on January 15, 2010, 01:43:27 AM
Yeah in all honesty I'm not really too sure how the heck I messed that up.
I somehow just failed at reading the map on the google-translated wiki and was looking in the totally wrong place. Yes I did mean 24F.

All in all, complete fail on my part.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 15, 2010, 01:54:47 AM
I was pretty sure the floor 22 guardian did it, but yeah, looks like you're going after one of them now.

Burninator is easier, so stay away from floor 21 for now.

Burninator easier indeed.  For laughs, I tried it out.  Party wipe first attempt (Oh god Flowing Hellfire you are NOT my friend!).

Second attempt preparation included equipping Remi, 18F character, Reimu, and one other person with plenty of FIR affinity equips as well as spending the skill points I had (~300-400k) to boost the heck outta Remi's FIR affinity.

Everyone survived Flowing Hellfire this time (Barely).  Buffs up as usual...oh god it still hurts I may have to grind for more skill points to put into MND/FIR affinity when I die.

...Or should I say, I might have added more characters to my party that could cause PAR with their skills instead.  Turns out Burninator is quite vulnerable to PAR.  7F girl's 3rd skill pretty much meant I could keep it in near permanent lockdown.  It did fail to hit with PAR once, but I managed to survive boss's next turn.

Remi + 15F optional pretty much killed the boss thanks to being able to keep PAR on it.

Got what I could from floor 25.  Seems like I do have to take out that floor 21 Sigil Guardian if I want to get anywhere.

Great, I get to figure out how to not get crushed by 21F Sigil Guardian's Demon-Slashing Dance while I grind up for said boss.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 15, 2010, 02:52:58 AM
Power through it. Can you survive 50,000 damage? No? Then kill it fast when it gets lowish on HP.

However, if you must take the hit, use expendable squishies in the first two slots and keep your tanks/damage dealers in back. Demon Slashing dance is a row attack, so SOMEONE will survive.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 15, 2010, 03:47:48 AM
Is it just me, or is fire an incredibly common element for bosses to use?

Still on Floor 15 right now, but if the bosses and guardians really do use fire that commonly I'm thinking it might be helpful to use the boss I just got from F12 (and unlike the one on F15, I actually like her).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 15, 2010, 04:11:36 AM
Is it just me, or is fire an incredibly common element for bosses to use?

Still on Floor 15 right now, but if the bosses and guardians really do use fire that commonly I'm thinking it might be helpful to use the boss I just got from F12 (and unlike the one on F15, I actually like her).

I wouldn't say fire is a common element as a whole. But all the enemies that have absolutely nothing but ONE element, always seem to be fire.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 15, 2010, 04:18:15 AM
I wouldn't say fire is a common element as a whole. But all the enemies that have absolutely nothing but ONE element, always seem to be fire.
In that case I'll see about putting her on the team somewhere to give her a try.

Since the wiki article on her seems to be blank, any advice for skillpoint and levelling stat distributions? Also, does it make a difference if I input skillpoint levels before or after levelling a character?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on January 15, 2010, 05:59:51 AM
In that case I'll see about putting her on the team somewhere to give her a try.

Since the wiki article on her seems to be blank, any advice for skillpoint and levelling stat distributions? Also, does it make a difference if I input skillpoint levels before or after levelling a character?

The second question gets asked a lot.  As always, no, it doesn't make a difference.  Because levelups and skillpoint bonuses are totally independant from one another as far as growth goes, it doesn't matter what order you do them in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 15, 2010, 09:48:50 AM
Eirin ended up being a staple in my boss busting team now, because it becomes more of a war of attrition than anything else. Here's a bunch of shit the boss throws at you:
1) Gravity-based attack dealing 50% cHP
2) Time Stop
3) A multi-target instant death attack
4) A single target Fire elemental attack that can ruin your shit if you have Fire-weak members
5) Several debuffs in his first form
6) Two healing moves, the latter which buffs him and heals him for 33% of his total HP.
7) A BoFV style Absolute Defense attack, which only Defense Ignoring attacks can break through
8) A buff that doubles his Agility
9) Aaaand much more.

I'm at 34/100 wins.
My roster is: Marisa, Flandre, Rinnosuke, Tenshi, Sanae, Eirin, Yuka, Mystia, Orin, Kaguya, Alice, Yuugi, average party level is Lv1850
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 15, 2010, 06:12:37 PM
Well, didn't have to grind that much for 21F Sigil Guardian.  It's now dead with Reimu at lv225 going into the fight.  21F character in 4th slot putting out the majority of the offensive assault with backup from Remi, 18F character (Who used the super buff first turn), and anyone else I had a chance to fit in when possible.

Luck decided to pull random total BS on me.  Oh hai Silent Cloud hitting 3 characters with SIL (Who had resistance to said stat ranging from 24-30 to boot), Slash gibbing 8F healer girl in 4th slot, yeah.

Somehow, I pulled through.  Barely though.  One more turn and I would have been dead for sure.

Time to go pay that 25F Sigil Guardian a visit finally.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 15, 2010, 07:41:04 PM
Oh boy, lots of progress on my part...
I beat the 18F boss just barly, beat the Acacia Sigil Guardian on 19F even more barly, beat a few randoms on 20F, and fought the 6F Bloody Seal boss. I got the 6F Seal boss to switch to it's Breakaway form, but the move "Wave Blaaaaaaast!" got spamed to hell and back. Flight of Idaten spam, just without something called "delay" of any sort between each use. Was I even close to winning, at all?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 15, 2010, 08:09:04 PM
Oh boy, lots of progress on my part...
I beat the 18F boss just barly, beat the Acacia Sigil Guardian on 19F even more barly, beat a few randoms on 20F, and fought the 6F Bloody Seal boss. I got the 6F Seal boss to switch to it's Breakaway form, but the move "Wave Blaaaaaaast!" got spamed to hell and back. Flight of Idaten spam, just without something called "delay" of any sort between each use. Was I even close to winning, at all?

I believe you were very close, yeah.  Once that form comes out, it doesn't have much HP left.  Just blast it with your strongest attacks at that point.  Guess you got to see what it does if it manages to get an action.  I never did because it died for me before it could act.

As for me...25F Sigil Guardian is dead, Reimu being at lv226 for this fight. I'm not exactly sure how I managed to beat it on my 2nd try.

Came down to the wire, that's for sure.  Only had 4 characters left, 1 was paralyzed, Reimu had no SP left for healing, boss just buffed itself up, nobody was at full HP (Around 50%, if that).  Next turn it would get meant I was dead.

Figuring I was screwed anyways, I used Reimu's Fantasy Seal (Had enough SP for this though :P), Magic Missile with Marisa and
Eirin's Astronomical Entombing
.  That final attack did roughly 51k...which apparently was enough to defeat the Sigil Guardian.  Lucky is me.

Time to go explore.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 15, 2010, 10:20:39 PM
Just took out the first of the 3 optionals on floor 14.

Pretty easy battle against Yuyuko. Most of my team had 38-40 Death resistance, and Mokou had around 50. Nitori and Chen died to DTH, latter due to me forgetting just how fast Yuyuko was, and Yuugi died because I was an idiot and didn't swap her out when I should have, so Yuyuko's spells tore her apart even in the back row. Marisa let loose with two full power Master Sparks (concentrating 3 times, then having Ran use her team attack buff to get her to 100), and generally I had a good strategy down. I could have probably made it out without any casulties, only thing stopping that was my incompetence and bad luck with Nitori, who was the only one without over 100% death resistance (and I couldn't sacrifice any of her equips without resulting in a notable drop in attack power). Meiling and Eirin stuck in the first two rows and basically tanked the whole fight until one attack strangely managed to one-shot Meiling, at which point I brought out Tenshi. Until her death Meiling was healing statuses and using her minor heal to the best of its ability, focusing whenever she had nothing better to do. Eirin was the same since even Astronomical Entombing did a flat-out 0 damage (seriously, that thing seems pretty useless even against random enemies), so it was all Hourai Elixir, tanking, and focusing on her part as well.

Also question:
Does Yuyuko have heavy MDef or Fire Res or something? Mokou's Fujiwara Volcano was like a second Royal Flare against the enemies on floors 15 and 16, easily decimating them all, yet Yuyuko took crap for damage from it AND Fire Bird -Flying Phoenix- (another move that usually tears apart anything else I hit with it). Wu didn't seem to do anything either, so I was eventually forced to just use her Curse and try to debuff Yuyuko best I could whenever she was out (which was when everyone else was restoring SP). Granted, she survived just fine thanks to total death immunity and reasonable defenses, but considering she was a superstar in mob clearing I was highly surprised she wasn't much help in the battle.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 15, 2010, 10:28:30 PM
Also question:
Does Yuyuko have heavy MDef or Fire Res or something? Mokou's Fujiwara Volcano was like a second Royal Flare against the enemies on floors 15 and 16, easily decimating them all, yet Yuyuko took crap for damage from it AND Fire Bird -Flying Phoenix-
Yes, her MND is huge; Marisa and Patchy only deal good damage because of MASTER SPARK RAPE and massive MAG stat, respectively.

And I have noticed that the first spell you mentioned really doesn't seem to do the damage it's formula would suggest. I don't know why, unless lots of stuff just has great SPI resistance and we haven't noticed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 15, 2010, 10:51:43 PM
Yes, her MND is huge; Marisa and Patchy only deal good damage because of MASTER SPARK RAPE and massive MAG stat, respectively.
I did notice my physical fighters were doing notably better damage than most of my magic-users. In that case I guess its a good thing my team is relatively evenly divided between magic casters and physical casters.

Quote
And I have noticed that the first spell you mentioned really doesn't seem to do the damage it's formula would suggest. I don't know why, unless lots of stuff just has great SPI resistance and we haven't noticed.
Astronomical Entombing?
If so then yeah, the damage formula along with the user's stats dictate that it should be pretty powerful, yet for some strange reason it isn't even doing decent damage. The only reason I keep the character around is for her semi-tanky defenses (making her a good slot-2 character, something my team really really needed at the time she joined) and her percent healer, making her a decent support character.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 15, 2010, 10:57:17 PM
KO3S is good for that fight IIRC
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 15, 2010, 11:02:42 PM
KO3S is good for that fight IIRC
Against
Yuyuko
?

Yeah, it really was. Did over 24k-25k in a single hit, and if I hadn't been incompetent and forgotten to swap her out before she took too much damage she probably could have done a lot more than she did before going down (which had to have been at least 100k's worth of damage).

EDIT: Forgot to mention my level was Reimu 71 (which she levelled from the fight). Chased down and got the character I've been waiting for since the start at Reimu 72. Not a hard battle, just have to be effecient at taking out her minions without wasting precious resources. Only casulties were my two healers. Got lucky and managed to poison her early on with Irremovable Shackles, too (and paralyze her, though that only worked once... still, poison probably helped).

Only thing? I'm not sure who to drop for her... D= I'm sure as heck not just leaving her, though. She'll get on my team no matter who I must kick.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 12:07:55 AM
Well, who is your team currently? Stating which characters you definitely want to keep right now will also help.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 12:26:30 AM
Well, who is your team currently? Stating which characters you definitely want to keep right now will also help.
I'll just spoiler the whole thing then. List is in no particular order:

Reimu: Spam her barrier in boss fights. Also occasionally heals if everyone really needs it and the buffs are good enough/Ran is present.
Marisa: MASTA SPAAAAAAAARK
Ran: Spam Eighty Billion Holy Boards until her SP runs out. Occasionally toss in a Banquet of the 12 General Gods.
Sanae: Small-time buffer and full-time healer of HP and status effects. Fights well if she ever gets a moment to attack (and usually has more than enough SP to spare).
Yuugi: Physical tank and physical hitter. Occasionally poisons/paralyzes with Irremovable Shackles.
Meiling: Tanks. Heals and restores status if others need it, otherwise she's focusing or healing herself.
Tenshi: Backup tank for Meiling. Generally uses State of Enlightenment since she can't fight for crap, but I can't drop her since, unlike Yuugi, she can also tank magic attacks.
Patchy: Nuker.
Nitori: CLD specialist, NTR specialist, and the occasional Megawatt.
Eirin: Designated slot 2 character. Generally just heals or focuses for more healing, because her attacks are crap and her debuffs don't happen much.
Chen: Swap in, buff, Itaden, swap out. Can usually Itaden about twice before the boss gets a turn.
Mokou: Gave her a try and loving her so far. Fujiwara Volcano is like a second Royal Flare and Rising Phoenix is the same thing in single-target form (making it good for bosses). Wu is good for when the boss resists fire (like Orin).

EDIT: Personal preferances:
Reimu, Marisa, Patchy, Tenshi, and Nitori I will not drop no matter what. Meiling can't be dropped because I don't have anyone capable of replacing her since she's the only who can both tank and heal. Eirin and Sanae I really like the characters of (not to mention are my main sources of healing), Yuugi is my only tank capable of actually fighting, Chen and Mokou have surprised me and been incredibly been useful since their introduction, and show no signs of slowing down.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 12:32:06 AM
Whichever of the last five you want to switch would be good. The upper characters are fairly important for the balance of your party setup, and would best only be switched out for a similar purpose character.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 12:34:33 AM
Whichever of the last five you want to switch would be good. The upper characters are fairly important for the balance of your party setup, and would best only be switched out for a similar purpose character.
So taking personal preferances into account, it looks like a choice between either Chen or
Mokou
.

EDIT: Or
Eirin
if the fact her sole redeeming feature of being able to heal by percent (even past their max) doesn't compensate for the impressive damage output the new girl is capable of. She's one of my favorite characters, but then again, so was
Reisen
and I was forced to drop her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 12:40:40 AM
So taking personal preferances into account, it looks like a choice between either Chen or
Mokou
.
Chen is extreme glass cannon (Which is both good and bad), while the other is one of the more durable caster characters, although with bad damage against stuff with FIR resistance.

With your party, you might be a little better off ditching Chen so you have one less glass cannon and get to keep the durable caster. But it's all up to you, of course.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 12:49:29 AM
Chen is extreme glass cannon (Which is both good and bad), while the other is one of the more durable caster characters, although with bad damage against stuff with FIR resistance.

With your party, you might be a little better off ditching Chen so you have one less glass cannon and get to keep the durable caster. But it's all up to you, of course.
Actually Wu does just fine against enemies with high FIR res (granted, not the best damage, but usually not bad), not to mention her own FIR res is pretty impressive, which was what appealed to me in the first place.

However, I HAVE noticed that durability is something my team seems to have issues with (if one of the four characters I use for the top two slots goes down, I often find myself struggling to figure out who to fill the slot with while the others are busy restoring HP/SP without risking pain or death). I thought it might be neat to have both of them on the team at once, but all things considered dropping her is probably my best bet. It was a great run while it lasted though... And at least now my team is almost completely immune to instant-death attacks (though I still hate that I used up ~45 levels' worth of skillpoints each into her attack and speed only to drop her like this).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 12:55:10 AM
(though I still hate that I used up ~45 levels' worth of skillpoints each into her attack and speed only to drop her like this).
Blah, this second run of mine is going to be doing an awful lot of that as I try out new characters and go "oh, they're cool but I'd rather not keep them forever".

I've already kicked out a few chars with a big plenty of skillpoints invested... and I'm going to be doing a lot more as I get past the 10~12F puzzle RAAAAAAGE@THESE FLOORS
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on January 16, 2010, 12:59:39 AM
You may want to consider kicking out
Eirin, as your party isn't exactly on the high end of the HP scale, so her % heal isn't quite as important.  If you had Komachi, dropping Eirin would be the worst thing you could do, but you don't use her - only Meiling on your party will really benefit from the percentage/overhealing effects, and even then, Meiling can heal herself.
...So Yeah.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 01:16:33 AM
You may want to consider kicking out
Eirin, as your party isn't exactly on the high end of the HP scale, so her % heal isn't quite as important.  If you had Komachi, dropping Eirin would be the worst thing you could do, but you don't use her - only Meiling on your party will really benefit from the percentage/overhealing effects, and even then, Meiling can heal herself.
...So Yeah.
This is a good point; and if another 2nd-Spot character is the main reason you keep her, there are better replacements anyway.

Remi would be a great replacement. Her HP/Atk/Def/Mnd/Spd are all wonderful, and she has a +60% Atk/Def/Mnd self-buff. Meiling or resistance equipment can take care of it's side effects.

Another great idea would be the 16F girl you'll be beating in around 10 levels or so.
She comes with great stats all around as well, and has a Multi-hit that lowers SPD and causes PAR. Plus she has another Reimu-esque DEF/MND buff, and a skill that lets the other 3 characters act immediately.

I'd recommend using her level-up bonuses on her MND, or perhaps her DEF, if you decide to use her by the way; her attack meant for dealing good damage is only good if you use both Chen and Ran, who boost it's damage formula when in reserve, and even more when in the active party. The other two attacks are hampered by sub-par damage formulas and her slowish leveling rate.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 01:32:16 AM
I'll just spoiler the whole thing then. List is in no particular order:

Reimu: Spam her barrier in boss fights. Also occasionally heals if everyone really needs it and the buffs are good enough/Ran is present.
Marisa: MASTA SPAAAAAAAARK
Ran: Spam Eighty Billion Holy Boards until her SP runs out. Occasionally toss in a Banquet of the 12 General Gods.
Sanae: Small-time buffer and full-time healer of HP and status effects. Fights well if she ever gets a moment to attack (and usually has more than enough SP to spare).
Yuugi: Physical tank and physical hitter. Occasionally poisons/paralyzes with Irremovable Shackles.
Meiling: Tanks. Heals and restores status if others need it, otherwise she's focusing or healing herself.
Tenshi: Backup tank for Meiling. Generally uses State of Enlightenment since she can't fight for crap, but I can't drop her since, unlike Yuugi, she can also tank magic attacks.
Patchy: Nuker.
Nitori: CLD specialist, NTR specialist, and the occasional Megawatt.
Eirin: Designated slot 2 character. Generally just heals or focuses for more healing, because her attacks are crap and her debuffs don't happen much.
Chen: Swap in, buff, Itaden, swap out. Can usually Itaden about twice before the boss gets a turn.
Mokou: Gave her a try and loving her so far. Fujiwara Volcano is like a second Royal Flare and Rising Phoenix is the same thing in single-target form (making it good for bosses). Wu is good for when the boss resists fire (like Orin).

EDIT: Personal preferances:
Reimu, Marisa, Patchy, Tenshi, and Nitori I will not drop no matter what. Meiling can't be dropped because I don't have anyone capable of replacing her since she's the only who can both tank and heal. Eirin and Sanae I really like the characters of (not to mention are my main sources of healing), Yuugi is my only tank capable of actually fighting, Chen and Mokou have surprised me and been incredibly been useful since their introduction, and show no signs of slowing down.

For bosses, first find out if you can poison, par or stat debuff them and use the appropriate character. Use wiggle for poison and suwako for par. There is a huge difference in power between wiggle's poison and yuugi's poison. Suwako is really really good and I regret not using her for most of the game. Consider using morikko or what her name is instead of erin or sanae.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 16, 2010, 01:45:42 AM
You might also want to consider having separate parties for exploring and for boss-fighting, because some characters are definitely better at one than at the other. For example, Marisa slowly loses her worth at random encounters as you encounter tougher ones that resist MYS, and you need your whole team to be launching effective attacks to beat them before they can land a hit; being a single-element user makes that hard for her. Despite that, nothing beats her for bosses that you need to take down quickly after a certain HP threshold, so she sees a lot of action then. Similiarly,
Orin
absolutely wipes the floor with most random encounters with a really powerful multi-target attack and a decent backup if it's not effective, but she's quite lacking for bosses. It eventually got to the point where for me, my boss-fighting team and exploring team only shared 2-3 members between them (usually Reimu, Chen and maybe another DD).

This worked well for me since I liked quite a lot of characters and gladly took the opportunity to use them all and give them some battle time where it be for exploring or for bosses. The only pain was constantly reassigning equipment, but you need to do that for most bosses anyway. YMMV of course, but it could be something to consider.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 02:03:06 AM
NeoSerela
I personaly disagree for the 10F girl, her SPD/PAR causing move actually does great damage for me while keeping foes locked down somewhat while her Chen/Ran related move is nigh on useless for me unless I'm fighting 1 foe and even then I prefer the SPD/PAR move for dmg-to-cost. 2000~ or so for an extra, what, 38 SP? I don't find that worthwhile. I thought I should mention my personal experience with using that char.

Is the 1st Bloody Seal boss something that needs spoiler marking, or no? I mean if I were to call it "1st Bloody Seal boss". It's fought on 1F, but is optional, thus why I am asking.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 02:09:29 AM
NeoSerela
I personaly disagree for the 10F girl, her SPD/PAR causing move actually does great damage for me while keeping foes locked down somewhat while her Chen/Ran related move is nigh on useless for me unless I'm fighting 1 foe and even then I prefer the SPD/PAR move for dmg-to-cost. 2000~ or so for an extra, what, 38 SP? I don't find that worthwhile. I thought I should mention my personal experience with using that char.

Is the 1st Bloody Seal boss something that needs spoiler marking, or no? I mean if I were to call it "1st Bloody Seal boss". It's fought on 1F, but is optional, thus why I am asking.
Her SPD/PAR move will do good damage against low-MND stuff, yes, but what is more important is how she does against bosses, where she'll probably get more usefulness out of a defensive-stat boost. Random floor trash isn't what should be giving you trouble, after all.

Also, the Ran/Chen move has variable damage formula based on whether Ran/Chen are in the party or not, and if they are in active 4 or the reserve. It's a big bad nuke when both are in the active party, and pretty strong with at least one. Its okay if they're both in reserve, and sucky compared to other moves if you don't use both Ran and Chen.

Either way, in bosses she'll probably just be needed to tank, buff, and use PAR/SPD down all the time anyway.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 02:14:42 AM
You might also want to consider having separate parties for exploring and for boss-fighting, because some characters are definitely better at one than at the other. For example, Marisa slowly loses her worth at random encounters as you encounter tougher ones that resist MYS, and you need your whole team to be launching effective attacks to beat them before they can land a hit; being a single-element user makes that hard for her. Despite that, nothing beats her for bosses that you need to take down quickly after a certain HP threshold, so she sees a lot of action then. Similiarly,
Orin
absolutely wipes the floor with most random encounters with a really powerful multi-target attack and a decent backup if it's not effective, but she's quite lacking for bosses. It eventually got to the point where for me, my boss-fighting team and exploring team only shared 2-3 members between them (usually Reimu, Chen and maybe another DD).

This worked well for me since I liked quite a lot of characters and gladly took the opportunity to use them all and give them some battle time where it be for exploring or for bosses. The only pain was constantly reassigning equipment, but you need to do that for most bosses anyway. YMMV of course, but it could be something to consider.

You might want to just use cirno, reimu, iku and kaguya/patchy. The mass majority of enemies can be double par and the ones who can't will already be slower then kaguya.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 03:53:49 AM
You may want to consider kicking out
Eirin, as your party isn't exactly on the high end of the HP scale, so her % heal isn't quite as important.  If you had Komachi, dropping Eirin would be the worst thing you could do, but you don't use her - only Meiling on your party will really benefit from the percentage/overhealing effects, and even then, Meiling can heal herself.
...So Yeah.
Its not just the healing effect, its the fact that it can also heal ABOVE that character's current HP count. Sure, my party isn't on the high end of the HP scale, but I can get them that way with the character in question.

If I don't use her my only other options for slot 2 are another one of my tanks (one of which can still get slaughtered there due to weakness to magic), or one of my two main defense-buffers (since they're my most durable casters). The girl in question has the resources to stay there and keep everyone at full speed, including herself. Furthermore, not using her means greenbitch has to do the heavy healing all by her lonesome, so if I end up losing her I'm left with Meiling as my lone source of healing, and she can't heal other people if she's busy healing herself.

Quote
Remi would be a great replacement. Her HP/Atk/Def/Mnd/Spd are all wonderful, and she has a +60% Atk/Def/Mnd self-buff. Meiling or resistance equipment can take care of it's side effects.
Rest assured if I wanted to use Remilia I would be doing so.

Also, I have no plans to use the 16F character you mentioned. I know she's great and all, but keep in mind I seem to be the only one not using the 15F one, either.

Quote
There is a huge difference in power between wiggle's poison and yuugi's poison.
Is there a way to tell how effective poison is? If there is I haven't figured it out, yet...

Quote
Consider using morikko or what her name is
Minoriko can't heal status effects, nor can she do anywhere near the damage greenbitch can, not to mention her affinities are a lot worse. Her main appeal is cheaper spells and lower delay, but the green one doesn't run out of SP much these days and I have more than one healer to deal with the delay.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 04:09:16 AM
When it comes to healing I use Reimu or Meiling or
Sanae
but mostly Reimu and Meiling, all of which can heal decent amounts of HP with their healing moves. Yes this includes Meilings Healer, which heals my chars for sumthin like 2500~ HP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 04:11:13 AM
When it comes to healing I use Reimu or Meiling or
Sanae
but mostly Reimu and Meiling, all of which can heal decent amounts of HP with their healing moves. Yes this includes Meilings Healer, which heals my chars for sumthin like 2500~ HP.
Unfortunetly, my Meiling is loaded up on equips that increase her defenses and status resistances, so mine only heals 900 HP on a good day.

Compare this to the green one, who can easily heal 3500-4500 HP (and what do you know? Most of my party's max HP is in that range).

EDIT:
Quote
You might also want to consider having separate parties for exploring and for boss-fighting, because some characters are definitely better at one than at the other.
While a great idea, skillpoints are running pretty short right now since I had to spend quite a number to get my two new party members up to par. Training some more characters is going to require a lot more time and effort when I'm probably already behind with my current party (most are in the 40-45 range for their best stats, but nobody is higher than that).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 04:26:15 AM
Well, for the record the number I gave was from my file which is at 19F. My Meiling is equiped for HP ATK and DEF, focusing on HP and DEF mostly.

Something I noticed:
When I went to level Rinnosuke up from level 1 to level 88, I saw that the level up lady said "lady Rinnosuke", in fact the exact ingame line right now is "I'm terribly sorry, to level up, lady Rinnosuke still needs 159368 more EXP..."

The point of this? "lady Rinnosuke"
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 04:32:17 AM
Something I noticed:
When I went to level Rinnosuke up from level 1 to level 88, I saw that the level up lady said "lady Rinnosuke", in fact the exact ingame line right now is "I'm terribly sorry, to level up, lady Rinnosuke still needs 159368 more EXP..."

The point of this? "lady Rinnosuke"
Give the woman a break. Its like 49 girls and one guy. =|
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 05:04:44 AM
Give the woman a break. Its like 49 girls and one guy. =|
Maybe Rinnosuke is secretly a woman, and just has an exceedingly flat chest.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 05:29:08 AM
Is there a way to tell how effective poison is? If there is I haven't figured it out, yet...
Minoriko can't heal status effects, nor can she do anywhere near the damage greenbitch can, not to mention her affinities are a lot worse. Her main appeal is cheaper spells and lower delay, but the green one doesn't run out of SP much these days and I have more than one healer to deal with the delay.

Trial and error on how much hp a mob has and then trying out everyone poison to see how fast it takes to kill them. It shouldn't be that important for minoriko to heal status effects since hong can. The main appeal of minoriko is that she is more durable and faster. In addition, because her spells are cheaper, she's more effective against dijinn storms. Also you really should consider the fl 15 girl. She's like a more powerful more durable patchy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 05:33:37 AM
Also you really should consider the fl 15 girl. She's like a more powerful more durable patchy.
That girl does as much damage as your other nukers will with a 100% Atk buff, except she doesn't need any buff at all to do it. And I'm not talking about her Action-Gauge-draining nuke either. And if you DO buff her Atk, its just... damn.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 05:38:20 AM
Trial and error on how much hp a mob has and then trying out everyone poison to see how fast it takes to kill them.
I'll take your word for it, but I don't really have any interest in using either of those girls, so I'll just forget about status effects.

Quote
It shouldn't be that important for minoriko to heal status effects since hong can.
Multiple healers are important, because Hong might have to heal herself first (since odds are she's in the first slot) while the other, who is likely to be in the back row, can take care of others first.

Quote
The main appeal of minoriko is that she is more durable and faster.
My stats seem to indicate she has better MND, but less DEF. She has clearly less magic though, and she's not faster, she just has less delay in her moves.

Quote
In addition, because her spells are cheaper, she's more effective against dijinn storms.
Haven't run into those yet. Don't they just deplete the SP of the current active party?

Quote
Also you really should consider the fl 15 girl. She's like a more powerful more durable patchy.
Wiki states that her MND is nowhere near as good as Patchy's, and her defense is about as terrible. =| I also don't like moves that damage the user or reduce the team's active gauges. She has no stable attacks whatsoever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 05:43:25 AM
My stats seem to indicate she has better MND, but less DEF. She has clearly less magic though, and she's not faster, she just has less delay in her moves.
Haven't run into those yet. Don't they just deplete the SP of the current active party?
Wiki states that her MND is nowhere near as good as Patchy's, and her defense is about as terrible. =| I also don't like moves that damage the user or reduce the team's active gauges. She has no stable attacks whatsoever.
About Minoriko's MAG stat; it doesn't matter that its lower. Her heal recovers a significantly larger amount of HP anyway, and her Falling Leaves of Madness ignores almost all MND, making it good for attacking things that take 0 damage from everything else.

Also, the two of them have the same speed, but Minoriko's delays will make a pretty big difference in how much they get to act. A really big difference.

Djinn Storm drains everyone's SP to 0. EVERYONE.

And the thing about 15F girl is that in the amount of time she spams her attack that hurts herself (For the love of god don't use the others outside of random trash nuke), she'll likely do more damage then any other single character will do for the rest of the battle. She also has quite great HP, so she still takes hits okay despite her stats; if you have someone healing her she can last quite a while. Not that you NEED to use her or anything, but she's pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 16, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Haven't run into those yet. Don't they just deplete the SP of the current active party?
Wiki states that her MND is nowhere near as good as Patchy's, and her defense is about as terrible. =| I also don't like moves that damage the user or reduce the team's active gauges. She has no stable attacks whatsoever.

First, Djinn storm does exactly that, plus the 8 in reserve, too. :/

Second, fl15 girl is PLENTY stable and contender for best character in the game. Active guage reduction doesn't mean much when everything is DEAD,  and it the sheer power of the bottom one especially makes it more than worth it for bosses if you're sure you can live. However, her first spell I find is better. With a healer on board, say, Reimu, there is very little penalty for it since most things that hit her will either kill her off outright or barely scratch her provided she's in the back. With even just three castings of it + a 100% buff, you'll do so much damage that including her in the party will be more than worth it.

She is so much better when you see her for what she is, a suicide bomber, rather than trying to look at her like everyone else.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 05:50:59 AM
About Minoriko's MAG stat; it doesn't matter that its lower. Her heal recovers a significantly larger amount of HP anyway, and her Falling Leaves of Madness ignores almost all MND, making it good for attacking things that take 0 damage from everything else.
Are you sure it recovers that much more? The moment I got greenbitch on my team I noticed she was healing everyone for a lot more, even without much skillpoint investment.

Quote
Djinn Storm drains everyone's SP to 0. EVERYONE.
Then I'll need to give everyone a decent SP recovery rate, won't I?

Quote
And the thing about 15F girl is that in the amount of time she spams her attack that hurts herself (For the love of god don't use the others outside of random trash nuke), she'll likely do more damage then any other single character will do for the rest of the battle. She also has quite great HP, so she still takes hits okay despite her stats; if you have someone healing her she can last quite a while. Not that you NEED to use her or anything, but she's pretty awesome.
I don't like her instability, low defenses mean her HP is going to be dropping like a rock (hence one of the reasons I chose to drop deathbitch), and the character has never appealed to me anyhow.

That said, I do think the creators probably favored her when they designed her. Why does she have more base fire defense than BOTH my most recent party members COMBINED? Especially when one is associated with fire much more than she is (and that's REALLY saying something).

EDIT:
Quote
She is so much better when you see her for what she is, a suicide bomber, rather than trying to look at her like everyone else.
I DO see her that way, and that's percisely why I don't like it. I want a character who can last me the whole fight, even if they're weak (hence why I was using Chen for the longest time, and only dropped her because the one replacing her is someone I've wanted since before I started playing).

My goal here is to avoid as much casulty as humanly possible. 15F girl isn't really good for that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 05:53:13 AM
That said, I do think the creators probably favored her when they designed her. Why does she have more base fire defense than BOTH my most recent party members COMBINED? Especially when one is associated with fire much more than she is (and that's REALLY saying something).
She also has basically the worst affinity in the game on everything OTHER then FIR  :V

Are you sure it recovers that much more? The moment I got greenbitch on my team I noticed she was healing everyone for a lot more, even without much skillpoint investment.
Yes, it definitely should be. Green's will be healing for about 3/4 of good-hp-growth characters max hp around the final boss, so it doesn't matter a ton then, but it probably becomes more significant in Plus Disk.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 06:03:42 AM
She also has basically the worst affinity in the game on everything OTHER then FIR  :V
They're terrible, I admit that, but I've run into a number of bosses that use exclusively fire and only recall Cirno being an exclusive-element boss specializing in something else, so she seems to specialize in the one that matters most.

That said, I admit she's still not very durable overall, though I still object to the statement she's more durable than Patchy since Patchy can tank magic attacks just fine.

Quote
Yes, it definitely should be. Green's will be healing for about 3/4 of good-hp-growth characters max hp around the final boss, so it doesn't matter a ton then, but it probably becomes more significant in Plus Disk.
Luckily skillpoints fix everything. =V Naw, I'm just playing around, though I doubt I'll be doing too much plusdisk stuff anyhow, if only due to the sheer amount of grind required, though if I do I should be able to do a number of things to keep her a reasonable healer. Admittanly, if I had room I'd be using both, but since I really don't I'd rather go with the one I like.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 06:09:13 AM
I'm a bit sad to say I didn't really do any Post-game stuff except a handful of Mark.2 bosses, after my first playthrough... but I hear that there isn't a whole bunch of grind until you hit 30F in Plus Disk, and that its okay until then.

Blah, I'll probably be replacing a third of my team after I beat the final boss this second playthrough. All the skillpoints... ;-;  At the 12F boss now, so the most agonizing part is behind me... I guess. 18 and 19F by themselves are nearly as bad as doing 10~12F, both taking forever and one being quite irritating about it, but at least at that point I'll be like "YEAH ALMOST AT THE END!".
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 06:13:43 AM
Who did you use first playthrough and who are you using now?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 06:26:29 AM
Who did you use first playthrough and who are you using now?
First time
Reimu
Marisa
Remi
Patchy
Chen
Youmu
Alice
Komachi
Suwako
Sanae
Tenshi
Flandre

I didn't have any trouble at all with almost anything until 16F, and most optional bosses after 12F (including the 18F boss) could be so completely cheesed out by 10F girl that it wasn't even funny, and I probably beat some of them 10~15 levels lower then I might have needed otherwise.

This time, I'm planning
Reimu
Marisa
Meiling
Minoriko
Yuugi
Nitori
Eirin
Orin
Kaguya
Suika
Yuyuko
Yukari
while also using all the different characters I can until I get all of these 12. I'm having a lot more trouble with bosses so far (I.E. not beating them on the first or second try all the time) then the first time, but I don't have my final 12 yet either. Many of them are on the 4th page, for gods sake!

The second party of 12 originally looked a bit different, but as I try characters I keep going "Ehh... I don't really want to keep this one", which is why Wriggle, Sakuya, Aya, and Iku were removed from the final 12 (although still used for quite a while). 12F healer might be replaced too, although I don't know yet.

9F is pretty great for trash clearing, but she isn't that great for bosses, so I think I'll probably switch her for 15F girl when I get her. Since I'm doing Plus Disk this time, I'll need her for speeding up grinding anyway, so I'll be able to bear doing it legit.


Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 07:22:41 AM
I honestly like 15F, and AlexX even if you don't want to use her, she is indeed be a character to try out a little bit and see what she offers in battle itself. If you have used her and decided you don't want to use her, then please ignore my spoiler-tagged bit, it's just power comparison.

A recent example of power, my Patchy used Silent Selene on a random, 45k~ 15Fs single target move then proceded to deal a little over 103k, then on 15Fs next turn I used her 3rd spell... I think it broke 150k.

What is the Drop Rate for Scourge? Does anyone know it? I reaaaaaaly want it :3 That thing looks like it'll make nukes even more nuke-tastic xD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 16, 2010, 07:27:53 AM
What is the Drop Rate for Scourge? Does anyone know it? I reaaaaaaly want it :3 That thing looks like it'll make nukes even more nuke-tastic xD

My personal experience says:

Never. You won't get it until you personally decide it's no longer worth it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 07:28:52 AM
I honestly like 15F, and AlexX even if you don't want to use her, she is indeed be a character to try out a little bit and see what she offers in battle itself. If you have used her and decided you don't want to use her, then please ignore my spoiler-tagged bit, it's just power comparison.
I'm well aware of damage comparison, but A. I can't beat her right now, and B. I don't really have room for her since I just barely managed to make room for the new girl I've been wanting (and I'm still shifting the party around to try and find someone I can permanently kick for her...).

On that subject, why do they keep associating her with fire? Her profile would indicate she doesn't specialize in anything other than pure nukage, which has no default element, so why does her battle sprite have more fire than characters who actually are fire-based?

I'd complain about depicting her as such a psycho too, but the game has so much fanon material in it I'm surprised Marisa and Alice haven't started making out yet...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 07:48:29 AM
Quote
I'm surprised Marisa and Alice haven't started making out yet

This = Win. xD

I believe the Fire association is due to myth.
The weapon of hers as well as a spell card of hers, Laevatein, is from norse myth and Laevatein's use has been summed up like so "In the Norse version of the of the end of the world a powerful Wand/Sword called Laevatein will be used to burn the world down." So I think it makes some sense, she has a magical Fire Sword/Wand that is used to burn the world itself to ashes, it's either that or the game makers wanted her to be a Glass Cannon who can take a hit or 2 from a highly common element, Fire. The myth bit can also serve as partail reasoning for why her MYS Affinity is her 2nd highest.

I hope that helps explain it to you. It makes sense to me when I consider this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 07:53:59 AM
I'll take your word for it, but I don't really have any interest in using either of those girls, so I'll just forget about status effects.
Multiple healers are important, because Hong might have to heal herself first (since odds are she's in the first slot) while the other, who is likely to be in the back row, can take care of others first.
My stats seem to indicate she has better MND, but less DEF. She has clearly less magic though, and she's not faster, she just has less delay in her moves.
Haven't run into those yet. Don't they just deplete the SP of the current active party?
Wiki states that her MND is nowhere near as good as Patchy's, and her defense is about as terrible. =| I also don't like moves that damage the user or reduce the team's active gauges. She has no stable attacks whatsoever.

Hong shoudn't need to heal herself that often. Minoriko also has better health. Also you shouldn't ignore status effects. They are extremely powerful and can greatly weaken a boss's power.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 08:06:23 AM
Hong shoudn't need to heal herself that often.
My personal experience disagrees: I set up all my defenses against the girls on floor 14 and 15 and I found myself having to heal my first two slots fairly often (something easy to do thanks to having Hong in the first slot and the green one in one of the last two slots).

Quote
Minoriko also has better health.
De-equipping the one I'm currently using (and checking to see that both have the same amount of skillpoints invested in HP), my greenbitch has 10 more points of health than Minoriko.

Quote
Also you shouldn't ignore status effects. They are extremely powerful and can greatly weaken a boss's power.
Unfortunetly, my team is strapped for room as it is since I want my favorites in there no matter what, not to mention I have a lot of skillpoints I need to grind for just to get my current team back up to par... Adding someone new at this point will be a pain and a half. =/
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 08:20:27 AM
My personal experience disagrees: I set up all my defenses against the girls on floor 14 and 15 and I found myself having to heal my first two slots fairly often (something easy to do thanks to having Hong in the first slot and the green one in one of the last two slots).
De-equipping the one I'm currently using (and checking to see that both have the same amount of skillpoints invested in HP), my greenbitch has 10 more points of health than Minoriko.
Unfortunetly, my team is strapped for room as it is since I want my favorites in there no matter what, not to mention I have a lot of skillpoints I need to grind for just to get my current team back up to par... Adding someone new at this point will be a pain and a half. =/

Hong should be strong enough to go 1-3 turns without needing a heal or at least that's how mine is. I just checked the stats. Green girl has 60 percent more defense then mino, better status defense and a tiny bit more resist. However simply because of spell delay she can heal 50 percent faster and has less problems with spell drains. Whatevers I guess.

You really should use status effects. They can seriously make a huge difference.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 08:26:49 AM
You really should use status effects. They can seriously make a huge difference.
If you want you can take a look at my team list on page 5 and tell me who to keep/kick. Just remember that most are either too valuable to replace or ones I really want on my team, so don't expect me to budge on a number of them...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 16, 2010, 09:57:37 AM
If you want you can take a look at my team list on page 5 and tell me who to keep/kick. Just remember that most are either too valuable to replace or ones I really want on my team, so don't expect me to budge on a number of them...

Reimu: Spam her barrier in boss fights. Also occasionally heals if everyone really needs it and the buffs are good enough/Ran is present.
Marisa: MASTA SPAAAAAAAARK
Ran: Spam Eighty Billion Holy Boards until her SP runs out. Occasionally toss in a Banquet of the 12 General Gods.
Yuugi: Physical tank and physical hitter. Occasionally poisons/paralyzes with Irremovable Shackles.
Meiling: Tanks. Heals and restores status if others need it, otherwise she's focusing or healing herself.
Patchy: Nuker.
Nitori: CLD specialist, NTR specialist, and the occasional Megawatt.

I recommend replacing sanae with minoriko or just using them both. The 50 percent bonus to healing speed is a big deal. Hong really shouldn't need to heal herself that often if she
has a decent +buff. I use reimu in my second slot though as reimu has aoe heal. Her, mino and hong together has plenty of heals and status removal but this is a defensive team. I should note that I killed the floor 18 boss with this team at level 85ish or so and I believe that that was also that level I killed the floor 5 secret boss with.

Eirin should be dropped. Her heals are too weak. Chen isn't that good when you consider the time it takes to swap her in and out. You should use kagura as she can do patchy level damage but can also take a greater number of hits. Tenshi isn't that good.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 16, 2010, 10:53:52 AM
So you know, most people in this topic seem to hate spoilers, which was why I went through the effort of spoiler-ing all those out... its also why I use ambiguous nicknames for each character in later floors. Anyhow:

-I've already gone over why I much prefer The Green One over Minoriko.
-My slot two is usually goldenbitch in boss battles due to better defenses with Reimu in slot 3 and Marisa priming her spark in the last slot before swapping out. Once slot 2 requires swapping out due to SP shortage I usually put in medicinebitch or another tank.
-If it comes down to it I sometimes do the same strategy with the green one in place of Minoriko, and occasionally the medicinebitch in place of Reimu.
-If Medicinebitch goes the new girl takes her place. However, I like how she can act somewhat like a second Hong in that she can be a semitank (not good enough for slot 1, but perfect for slot 2) and keep herself and others healthy. Her heal isn't as good as the green one's, but it still makes for some good backup healing, not to mention the fact she can overheal people makes for a good prepping when I know something big is coming (or when I just need someone to have better protection and buffers are either not present or out of SP... or said character is already at 100% buffs). The fact it heals by percent means that she can be debuffed like mad and she will still heal as good as ever.
-I'm not dropping Chen just becase she requires more strategy than most characters in order to fight efficiently. As long as I calculate the boss's speed she can jump in, deal around 25k-30k damage, then swap out before taking any hits. Its more work, but this is an RPG, I can't exactly be shying away from stuff that requires brainwork, even if it requires more brainwork than normal. If she's getting dropped its for the new girl, otherwise she's staying right where she is.
-I'm pretty sure Kagura (http://inuyasha.wikia.com/wiki/Kagura) isn't in this game. Joking aside, the character you mean to reccomend to me refuses to join even though I've hit F16 and I've used the 4 characters who determine her joining plenty. That said, I'm still not planning on using her right now.
-Skybitch? Not that good? Are you MAD?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 16, 2010, 11:14:16 AM
I like kaggy, she's in my party, but so is patchy... What kind of meth addict thinks kaggy does patchy dps!? furthermore, she is HARDER to keep alive because her health and def is only slightly better than patchy's (physical hits will still instagib her) and her mnd, while good, is significantly less than patchy's. Kaggy also has larger delays on her spells than silent Selene.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 16, 2010, 03:25:11 PM
-Skybitch? Not that good? Are you MAD?
The only thing she has to offer is massive walling. Meiling can at least heal status effects, which is very useful, and is faster as well, so she is more useful for switching.

The thing is, 10F girl is also insanely good at her massive walling. Against many bosses she can sit in the first slot the entire battle and take 0 damage, while focusing/buffing herself and switching in a nuker or healer from time to time. When she can't do this against a boss however, she's much less useful then other tanks, and she is nearly useless in floor exploration as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
Ok,
Final Boss Time. I need tips. Which minion does what when it's the last minion alive, and how much HP each have and how HP the Final Boss has would also be nice.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 16, 2010, 09:05:48 PM
Ok,
Final Boss Time. I need tips. Which minion does what when it's the last minion alive, and how much HP each have and how HP the Final Boss has would also be nice.
K first off, attacking a minion actually attacks damages the boss herself, at least until all 3 minions are out. If you don't know that, the amount of hp they have will seem disproportionate. However if you know that, you'll know that they all have roughly similar amounts (I believe all 3 have under 1 million, they range from 400k to 800k or something I don't really remember for sure though.)

I like killing the top one first, then the right one, then the left one. Someone suggested to me to kill the top one last. It all depends on how much protection your party has against status ailments I guess

As I recall correctly, they gain the following powers
Top when 1 other is down: Can now cast destroy magic, I'm not sure if toxin seed is activated now, or it always knows this spell at this point
Top when 2 others are down. It can cast djinn storm, which actually isn't so bad, because the boss herself can cast it too at this point if you're lucky *cough*

Left: when 1 is down: Not sure, casts more powerful magic I guess, maybe ether flare is the unlocked one
when both are down: Casts magic jitsu, you know that 100% magic spellpower buff... It sounds worse than it is though, it's magic is still quite low, even with a 100% magic jitsu followed by an ether flare, it still hurts less than the boss herself casting hyperactive flying object or something, btw this one is VERY weak to fire, you can probably 2 shot it with 2 good solid fire attacks.

Right: Not sure when 1 is down...But for the love of god do NOT kill it last, if you do.. it'll cast scourge over and over.. You know, that attack diamond knights have if you let them make a move that hits for over 200k (yes, 200k not 20k).

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 16, 2010, 11:08:44 PM
I have seen 1st hand that the Magic casting minion can use Strengthen Jutsu or whatever when 1 other minion is down, it also started using Dark Blaze on me. Also after 1 minion goes down the Physical minion seems to gain Sealing Slash which looks like a Row-based SIL Inflicting Physical move.

So if 2 minions are out and the 3rd has NOT been called out yet hitting all 3 foes, Boss and 2 minions, would basicly be the same as using that move 3 times on the boss alone, like if Royal Flare dealt 50k, 60k, 100k the boss would actually suffer 210k, right? Awesome if thats how it works :D I wonder how much HP the boss itself has... Next time I fight I'll write down what I deal, down to the 1s digit.

Thanks, that info is really helpful :D *hands Ghaleon 20 cookies*
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 17, 2010, 01:15:26 AM
The only thing she has to offer is massive walling. Meiling can at least heal status effects, which is very useful, and is faster as well, so she is more useful for switching.

The thing is, 10F girl is also insanely good at her massive walling. Against many bosses she can sit in the first slot the entire battle and take 0 damage, while focusing/buffing herself and switching in a nuker or healer from time to time. When she can't do this against a boss however, she's much less useful then other tanks, and she is nearly useless in floor exploration as well.
I find that if any boss that does more than 0 damage to skybitch with any amount of buffs on I'm either severely underlevelled or I'm way behind on skillpoint distribution.

The point of her is, as you said, to sit in slot 1 and take 0 damage from everything. She is interchangable with Meiling, because both have the same purpose of tanking. Not the exact same of course, but that's why I use them both instead of just one. If Meiling is not present I still have two other capable healers on my team, one of which can also restore status effects.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 17, 2010, 04:32:16 AM
I defeated the 6F Bloody Seal boss, Beast of Centurea or whatever :V Now I just need to beat the final boss >.>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 04:40:24 AM
I defeated the 6F Bloody Seal boss, Beast of Centurea or whatever :V Now I just need to beat the final boss >.>
Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 17, 2010, 04:53:44 AM
Thanks:) By the way, are you NeoSerela? I am seeing so many name changes I'm having trouble remembering who is who :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 04:58:13 AM
Thanks:) By the way, are you NeoSerela? I am seeing so many name changes I'm having trouble remembering who is who
Yes. I suppose it doesn't help that I also changed my avatar and such  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 17, 2010, 06:35:25 AM
Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.

Isn't her third form more annoying than weak?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 17, 2010, 06:53:46 AM
Reach Reimu lv140~150(depends on how good your team/strategy is), then you may take her seriously. It is possible to beat her before then, but her third and final phase will rape you so hard at any level under that if you don't have immense luck.

Eh, I found the final boss fight surprisingly easy (was at Reimu lvl 130), beating her on my first try. The third phase made me sweat a little, but standard tactics (tanks out in front, mnd/def/spd buffs up at all times, dpsers in the back) were sufficient.

On the subject of 15F girl, I had a fun time beating the ver2/seal bosses with her +
Kaguya to spam Buddha's Stone Bowl
. Examples:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 17, 2010, 08:41:44 AM
I find the final boss' difficulty is largely dependant on how much she keeps her buff up (sometimes she rarely casts it, other times it's stuck at 100%), how often she casts djinn storm, and how often she casts hyperdimensional flying object. Quadruple barrier, magic drain, etc, etc, they're all gimmies.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 17, 2010, 11:59:55 AM
I just noticed that the omake text file in the plus disk folder actually has quite a bit of data on attacks and the system. I've done some translation and organizing of it: I'm not sure if some of this information has already been stated (specifically the pastebin that was shown earlier though it's down now), but I'm putting it here anyway in case it helps anyone.

=============================
PAR, SPD and the Active Gauge
=============================
This section will answer the question "How does the active gauge work?"

The active gauge has a minimum value of 0, and a maximum value of 10,000.

First of all, the additions made to the activage gauge for both enemies and allies are calculated based on the SPD stat. (Exact calculations mentioned later).
When the gauge reaches 10,000 or more for a character, it becomes that character's turn.
If two or more characters reach 10,000+ active gauge at the same time, the characters with larger gauge will go first.
If two or more characters reach 10,000+ with the exact same gauge number, priorities are given to the allies, and within each group, priority is given from left to right in party order.

Each of these "singular addition to everyone's active gauge based on SPD" is called a "battle count". Hmm, quite a boring name.
Each "battle count" affects not only the active gauge, but also PSN damage, and the reduction of any active PSN, PAR and SIL effects.

The equation for how much your SPD affects the active gauge for each battle count is a little difficult to show, so I'll just give some examples below.

For a single battle count:
SPD 100: Active Gauge +100
SPD 200: Active Gauge +200
SPD 400: Active Gauge +300
SPD 700: Active Gauge +400
SPD 1100: Active Gauge +500
SPD 1600: Active Gauge +600
SPD 2200: Active Gauge +700
SPD 2900: Active Gauge +800
SPD 3700: Active Gauge +900

And so on. The calculations may seem difficult on the surface, but it should be easy to figure out with these exmaples.




===========================
All About PSN damage
===========================

The much-talked about PSN damage, where whether it's working or not can be hard to tell.
The equation however is surprisingly easy, if troublesome.

Before reading this, please read about battle counts in "PAR, SPD and the Active Gauge".

First of all, for spells with a PSN effect, the strength of the PSN is determined by the following equation:

(Spell's PSN strength * User's Level) * (1.00 + Users's Level * 0.03)

At this point, the target's PSN resistance is tested to see whether the PSN effect lands, and if it succeeds, how much the PSN effect is decreased by.
For this part, please refer to the FAQ page in the manual for more information.

The effect calcuations above affects not only whether the effect lands, but also the strength of the PSN.
For each battle count that passes by, the enemy will end up receiving (PSN effect / 50) damage.

After processing the PSN damage applied to the enemy, the reduction of the PSN effect will take place.
For each battle count, the enemy's PSN effect is reduced by 0.75%. It doesn't look like much, but it actually depletes quite quickly in practice.

===========================
PSN Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================



#1: Comet on Earth (Wriggle): 120
#2: Firefly Phenomenon (Wriggle): 90
#3: Irremovable Shackles (Yuugi), Gas-Woven Orb (Reisen): 60
#4: Narrow Confines of Avici (Komachi), Vengeful Cannibal Spirit (Orin): 45
#5: Curse of Vlad Tepes (Remilia, self-only): 35



===========================
PAR Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================



#1: Curse of Vlad Tepes (Remilia, self-only): 500
#2: Thundercloud Stickleback (Iku, ally-only): 300
#3: State of Enlightenment (Tenshi, self-only): 200
#4: Moreya's Iron Ring (Suwako): 90
#5: Evil Sealing Circle (Reimu): 38
#6: Diamond Blizzard (Cirno): 35
#7: Narrow Confines of Avici (Komachi), Mesh of Light & Darkness (Yukari), Irremovable Shackles (Yuugi): 30


===========================
DTH Strength Tiers (Non-Plus Disk Characters)
===========================


#1: Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana (Yuyuko): 100
#2: Ghostly Dream's Butterfly, Ghastly Dream (Yuyuko): 75
#3: Scythe that Chooses the Dead (Komachi): 70
#4: Narrow Confines of Avici, Short Life Expectancy, Ferriage in the Deep Fog (Komachi): 40

Other random notes:
Tenshi's State of Enlightenment
has a SIL effect of 100
Tenshi's Sword of Rapture
checks what stat-buffs the target has, then has a 40% chance of removing each of them
Yuyuko's Ghostly Dream's Butterfly and Ghastly Dream
both reduce the target(s)'s active gauge by 2500. The effect is weakened a lot on bosses.
I think someone wanted the delay values of each attack? They're all in the text file if so, for all the non-plusdisk characters. just check for the value after 使用後アクティブゲージ量 for each attack, then divide it by 10000 to get the percentage.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 17, 2010, 12:21:33 PM
Holy Wow! Deranged, all that info their... wow. *Gives Deranged cookies*

So turns are not given at 10,000 for the active gauge, but when a battle count passes and someone has 10,000+ then after the count they get a turn, I always wondered how chars with different SPD stats could get their turn at the same time.

How does the rate of Ailment Affliction work? Like for the chars the player gets that can PSN? Same for PAR and DTH please:)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 17, 2010, 12:46:58 PM
How does the rate of Ailment Affliction work? Like for the chars the player gets that can PSN? Same for PAR and DTH please:)

[copypasta from manual]

13: What are Status Effect Resistances?
A: Just as it says, it's the character's resistance to status effects.
If you're still confused, you might want to consult a dictionary.

A bit more explanation.
For every point in the Status Effect Resistance, the chance of that status effect landing on the character decreases by 3%.

Additionally, if the status effect does land, the potency of the status effect is reduced by (Status Effect Resistance~Status Effect Resistance*2)%.

For example,
If a character with Paralysis Resistance 20 receives a Paralysis 500 Attack, there's a 60% chance of completely blocking the Paralysis.
And if the Paralysis lands, it's potency will be reduced to 400~300.

By the way, there are skills with a Death effect that easily reaches over 100% success rate, so be careful.

[/copypasta from manual]

It's not directly stated anywhere, but I assume DTH success rate uses the DTH strength of the spell versus the enemy's resistance rather than the straight 100 versus resistance that PAR/PSN use. So a DTH 30 attack will never land on a character/enemy with DTH resist of 10, while a PAR/PSN 30 attack will still have a 70% chance of landing on a character/enemy with PAR/PSN resist of 10, but if it lands, the initial effect will be weakened by 10~20% to 27~24 power.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
Oh wow... this information is very useful. I should go and add the status affliction power to the attacks in the wiki.

I looked in the file, and it also seems that the Level-Up Experience modifier thing is listed for each non-plus character. Nifty!

I have no idea how to edit the wiki template to add in a spot for Attack Delay and Level-Up Difficulty though.  ???

EDIT:I messed around with the code and figured out how to do it. It wasn't very hard. I oh-so-wish that I didn't have to push Level-Up Difficulty all the way to the right though, because IMO, it's too easy to overlook that way... :<

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Characters_1#Reimu_Hakurei

Only Reimu edited so far. I might do a few characters a day, and then start filling in all the info for Plus Disk characters. We have all their information except Level-Up difficulty and attack names anyway, from the Japanese wiki. And, anyone who has gotten all the Plus-Disk characters could fill in the names.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 17, 2010, 04:46:11 PM
Since I did a lot of the work on the first 3 character pages, even if it was only filling in the blanks, if its good with the people here, I could convert the rest of the table into the new format.  Would save time for when the info gets put in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 04:49:18 PM
Since I did a lot of the work on the first 3 character pages, even if it was only filling in the blanks, if its good with the people here, I could convert the rest of the table into the new format.  Would save time for when the info gets put in.
I would love you for this. I just went through and added in the strengths of all the status-afflicting moves, and I'd probably do all the Level-Up and Delay info within a few days if you converted the tables.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 17, 2010, 05:14:47 PM
Ok I finished the first page, Characters 1.  If theres anything wrong with it let me know.  If I get nothing I'll get started on the other pages.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 05:19:09 PM
Ok I finished the first page, Characters 1.  If theres anything wrong with it let me know.  If I get nothing I'll get started on the other pages.
Looks great! I'll get to work in a few minutes.

EDIT:Page 1 finished. It looks so pretty.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on January 17, 2010, 06:22:36 PM
You could just ask me if you want something changed XD I am the one who did it afterall!

...Also, I feel like saying that there's a reason I didn't include Delay Amounts and such originally - that data's not available for everyone even on the JP Wiki.

...Also Also I need to go and bloody sit down and update the 'grades' on the stats because someone else did the Plus Disk page and I think the 16F-20F page as well and may not be right.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 17, 2010, 06:32:29 PM
I should probably point out something that may have been misunderstood from what I've seen on the wiki; for PAR and PSN, the chance of the effect proccing on the target should be the same across all moves that can inflict it. This is because the equation for checking whether it lands is simply 100-(resistance stat * 3), so the only thing that affects the chance of PAR or PSN effecting an enemy is the enemy's resistance to the status effect in particular.

What the "strength" of these moves affects is how powerful the effect is -if- the effect lands. In the case of PAR, the effect of the different strengths of the moves is the duration of the PAR. In the case of PSN, the effect of the different strengths of the moves is the duration and the amount of HP lost per "battle count".

In short, the strength of the effect has no bearing on whether it lands, but only on how long the effect lasts/how powerful it is.

The DTH part I mentioned is also entirely my conjecture, but it seems consistent considering the few times I used F14 optional 1.

Additionally, all the move info and such was taken from the plus disk omake text file, which means that it was included with the first version of the plus disk (v2.00). This means there may have been some changes to the moves or other data since, so it may not be entirely accurate, although it's probably as good a starting point as any.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 06:39:13 PM
...Also, I feel like saying that there's a reason I didn't include DelayAmounts and such originally - that data's not available for everyone even on the JP Wiki.

...Also Also I need to go and bloody sit down and update the 'grades' on the stats because someone else did the Plus Disk page and I think the 16F-20F page as well and may not be right.
I'm pretty sure everyone has their delays on the Jap wiki... all the characters I've looked at did, which is maybe 1/4 of the Main Game characters and all of the Plus Disk ones.

The Level-Up Difficulty is avaliable for all non-Plus-Disk characters in the file that comes with the game. I'll also see if it corresponds to an exact amount of EXP required to reach lv2 or 3 or something, because if it does, I can get the value for Plus Disk people too.

As for grades, I'll do the Level-Up ones myself if you don't do them first  :V And the Plus-Disk page only has like one character on it so far in the first place, so don't worry about those being inaccurate, heh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 17, 2010, 07:06:35 PM
Well I finished pages 2 and 3, so if any need be they can be undone.  Personally I like the idea of this though, adding more info, if slighty innacurate, compared to haveing no data on said subjects.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 17, 2010, 08:04:13 PM
Finished filling in pages 2 and 3. So far, 5 characters do not have any delay info on the JP Wiki. These are
Meiling, Iku, Ran, Alice, and Wriggle.

Definitely worth it. :3

EDIT:Checked ahead, and the rest without Delay info are
Reisen, Mokou, Orin, and Suika
. All Plus-Disk characters have Delay info, but no Level-Up Difficulty unless it corresponds to an exact level up (which I have not tested yet).

Well, 31/40 characters is pretty darn good, eh?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 18, 2010, 12:02:29 AM
Requesting permission to do the testing and write out the analysis to be put in Rin's data slot.

The only thing I can't test too well is how effective the poison in one of her attacks is, but the data is already there so we should be good.

EDIT: Since we're on the subject... What happens when a status effect is inflicted on a target that already has it? Like... If Wriggle manages to poison an enemy, would using Comet On Earth again make the poison effect stronger, would it increase/reset the duration, or something else? Same with PAR, does inflicting it more than once increase how long it lasts? And does this all apply to when enemies use them on your characters as well?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 02:04:50 AM
I'm pretty sure it just re-inflicts it back to full power.

8F girl (not healer) can basically keep a boss in infinite paralysis if its vulnerable. Ehehehe~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 18, 2010, 02:21:54 AM
I think someone wanted the delay values of each attack? They're all in the text file if so, for all the non-plusdisk characters. just check for the value after 使用後アクティブゲージ量 for each attack, then divide it by 10000 to get the percentage.

hurr? I shall check this, this would be very good news indeed. I kinda gave up trying to theory each character's dps after finding out each attack has a variable amount of delay without knowing what easily. eeek.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 02:31:50 AM
hurr? I shall check this, this would be very good news indeed. I kinda gave up trying to theory each character's dps after finding out each attack has a variable amount of delay without knowing what easily. eeek.
I've added the attack delays to the english wiki already. First three pages of characters are done, except like 4 characters without information on them. Most of the other character's delay info can be found on the Jap wiki.
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww19.atwiki.jp%2Fth_maze%2F&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Also added the Level-Up difficulty to these characters, a higher value means they take more EXP to level up. Most characters deemed less useful, or with weak stat growths, also take significantly less EXP to level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 18, 2010, 02:34:16 AM
Ok, Plus disk time. Master Light Wings has been shot down to a smoldering pile of "The player wins", Chen, Yuugi and Nitori V.2 have been bested and until I gain far more levels, Boss Rush is impossible due to my victory against Final Boss having been pure luck as no Djinn Storm was used by her the entire time she could use it. Yuugi V.2 was pure lolz, she OHKOed almost everyone she targeted, she even dealt like 256k with Knockout in 3 Steps. What should I take down next? Meiling? Or maybe Yuyuko?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 18, 2010, 02:55:51 AM
I'm pretty sure it just re-inflicts it back to full power.

8F girl (not healer) can basically keep a boss in infinite paralysis if its vulnerable. Ehehehe~
Good to know, though I honestly do not like that character and am highly saddened her counterpart is not in this game.

Can the bosses known as
Lily Sigil Guardian, Flandre, and Yukari
be affected by PSN or PAR? I know they mostly spam spells, making my drunken one highly vulnerable, so if they aren't vulnerable to her status I'm probably better off giving her a temporary replacement.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 03:01:38 AM
Good to know, though I honestly do not like that character and am highly saddened her counterpart is not in this game.

Can the bosses known as
Lily Sigil Guardian, Flandre, and Yukari
be affected by PSN or PAR? I know they mostly spam spells, making my drunken one highly vulnerable, so if they aren't vulnerable to her status I'm probably better off giving her a temporary replacement.
Most bosses can be inflicted with PSN. Probably because it isn't hax or anything. Even the final boss!

Lily Sigil is very vulnerable to PAR. On my first playthrough, it got to attack like... once. lolPARabuse. 15F can be hit by it, but I don't remember if it was enough to be particularly effective. I don't believe it was. 16F is hit by it... sometimes. Don't count on it.

16F will always be hit by a stat debuff. 12F debuffer girl is wonderful for this battle, and 7F girl is useful as a replacement. If you don't use either of them, just try to use people who debuffs SPD and MAG at the least.

I'm fantasizing about using the 2 characters you get after beating Final Boss v2, yet I'm not even trying to go beat the 12F boss right now. Yay procrastination.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 18, 2010, 03:02:41 AM
It depends. Bosses get a bonus to their stats so you'll generally need to test it out. For instance Flandre cannot be stunned and Mokou cannot be poisoned even though their status resistances says otherwise.

Ok, Plus disk time. Master Light Wings has been shot down to a smoldering pile of "The player wins", Chen, Yuugi and Nitori V.2 have been bested and until I gain far more levels, Boss Rush is impossible due to my victory against Final Boss having been pure luck as no Djinn Storm was used by her the entire time she could use it. Yuugi V.2 was pure lolz, she OHKOed almost everyone she targeted, she even dealt like 256k with Knockout in 3 Steps. What should I take down next? Meiling? Or maybe Yuyuko?

Meiling heals herself and can honestly be pretty annoying. Kill Yuyuko first.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 05:11:51 AM
Okay, I'm not sure how the Level-Up EXP modifier stat exactly calculates EXP needed to level. However, I have found a way that seems to work to find out what it is.

Reach lv12. Take required EXP to level again, add 20, divide by 22. Round to the nearest number (or perhaps simply round down). I tested the 5 characters I still have at lv1, and this got the correct number. With Komachi, it even got the exact number, no decimals.

I'm planning to use this to calculate the probable Level-Up Difficulty for the Plus-Disk characters, whenever I manage to get them. They are the only characters whom information we do not have for this stat.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 18, 2010, 05:26:41 AM
Okay, I'm not sure how the Level-Up EXP modifier stat exactly calculates EXP needed to level. However, I have found a way that seems to work to find out what it is.

Reach lv12. Take required EXP to level again, add 20, divide by 22. Round to the nearest number (or perhaps simply round down). I tested the 5 characters I still have at lv1, and this got the correct number. With Komachi, it even got the exact number, no decimals.

I'm planning to use this to calculate the probable Level-Up Difficulty for the Plus-Disk characters, whenever I manage to get them. They are the only characters whom information we do not have for this stat.

It's probably simpler then that. Why not just use Reimu's modifier as a base and get the number you want from that?

For instance Reimu is 88, so if she need 1000 exp to level, the real unmodified number would be 1000/.88.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 05:43:13 AM
It's probably simpler then that. Why not just use Reimu's modifier as a base and get the number you want from that?

For instance Reimu is 88, so if she need 1000 exp to level, the real unmodified number would be 1000/.88.
I just tried doing something like this. It looked promising at first, when Reimu's required EXP divided by 0.90 (her modifier is 90, which didn't work) gave a whole number. Marisa's did too... but it was a much different number. Remi's didn't divide evenly at all.

All I know is, the way I found works quite accurately. It certainly isn't the correct way to do it... but it is close enough to get the right answer most of the time, if not all. It'll do for now. With "for now" being whenever I reach Plus Disk for the second time. Just beat 12F boss~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 18, 2010, 06:22:41 AM
Just beat 12F boss~

Yea, this is going to be a long wait.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: SONIC BHOCOLATE STRIKER on January 18, 2010, 06:24:50 AM
Well, I just started playing this. I am horrible at it but I'm going to keep playing it until I beat it.

This game has some awesome 4-star dialog goin' on. I love how it never takes itself seriously, and references anything it can get its hands on.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 18, 2010, 06:32:14 AM
I just tested it myself. I have no clue what you're talking about neo since it worked exactly how I said it would. I leveled everyone up to level 403. Reimu needed like 1.7m exp or something and I divided that by .9. Marisa needed exactly 1.10 of that number while Chen and Hong needed exactly .7 and .94 of that number respectively.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 18, 2010, 11:39:32 AM
Using Reimu as an average, mlkio has it pretty close. And by close I mean exact.

42/100, average level: 2500

EDIT: Meh, it's getting lonely down here in 30F... Nobody's beaten that boss yet? :/ I feel like I'm not posting anything of worth with my count of how many times I beat him.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 18, 2010, 01:04:26 PM
The equip Scourge... it exists! I started the game up this morning for a quick round of grinding and the 1st Diamond Knight I kill gives me the Scourge! Woohoo :toot: Now I just need that 100th equip >.>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 01:29:58 PM
The equip Scourge... it exists! I started the game up this morning for a quick round of grinding and the 1st Diamond Knight I kill gives me the Scourge! Woohoo :toot: Now I just need that 100th equip >.>
100th equip comes from Boss Rush. :3


I just tested it myself. I have no clue what you're talking about neo since it worked exactly how I said it would. I leveled everyone up to level 403. Reimu needed like 1.7m exp or something and I divided that by .9. Marisa needed exactly 1.10 of that number while Chen and Hong needed exactly .7 and .94 of that number respectively.
Ooooh, they have to be the same level to get the same number, DUH. *facepalm* Remi's given EXP-Modifier must be incorrect though, because it still doesn't divide evenly. That was what really threw me off. Mmkay~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 18, 2010, 01:47:17 PM
Quote
100th equip comes from Boss Rush. :3

Which is the big problem that I knew of. I can't beat Boss Rush at the moment as a few key foes,
Yuyuko
,
Yukari
and
Rinnosuke
, will take a few of my chars down unless I grind a lot more.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 01:49:08 PM
From what I hear, you won't be able to handle Floor 21 until you reach lv200 anyway. So, take out all the other Mk2/Bloodstained bosses you haven't, and if you still aren't ready for Boss Rush, I'm afraid you'll just have to start grinding at 20F again.

Of course, I've barely played any Post-Game material, so I all I know is what people have said  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 18, 2010, 07:16:05 PM
EDIT: Meh, it's getting lonely down here in 30F... Nobody's beaten that boss yet? :/ I feel like I'm not posting anything of worth with my count of how many times I beat him.

Sorry. Those of us that are there cheated and the rest of us have already quit or moved on to a second playthrough.

I've seen said boss, but been to lazy to actually beat him. I think I may just not and get straight to playthrough 2.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 18, 2010, 07:45:54 PM
Which is the big problem that I knew of. I can't beat Boss Rush at the moment as a few key foes,
Yuyuko
,
Yukari
and
Rinnosuke
, will take a few of my chars down unless I grind a lot more.

I'm guessing you're talking about boss rush mk.2? Clearing the first boss rush should have netted you item 100 (Great Question's Mask, +100% to all non hp/sp stats).

If not,
equip DTH resist for Yuyuko, master spark/unload on Yukari to kill her before she can Djinn storm, and just power through Rinnosuke to avoid getting your TP reduced by too much. Cosmic (seal guardian on 19F)/final boss should be the only threats. As long as you can beat the final boss, level is not really important for this fight; proper management of TP to get to the final boss in a winnable state is.

From what I hear, you won't be able to handle Floor 21 until you reach lv200 anyway. So, take out all the other Mk2/Bloodstained bosses you haven't, and if you still aren't ready for Boss Rush, I'm afraid you'll just have to start grinding at 20F again.

You'll be able to handle 21F much earlier, but it's pointless to grind there (or at any level from 21-24F for that matter) since exp/skill points gain is inferior to 20F, despite the enemies being harder (much harder in the case of 24F). Just explore to get the items.

The Reimu lvl 200 number is for when you want to tackle the 21F and 22F seal guardians. 24F can be kept in paralysis lockdown and done much earlier.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 18, 2010, 08:59:34 PM
Which is the big problem that I knew of. I can't beat Boss Rush at the moment as a few key foes,
Yuyuko
,
Yukari
and
Rinnosuke
, will take a few of my chars down unless I grind a lot more.

at your level Yuyuko shouldn't be a threat other than her death effects. Just make a mental note of who your most death resistant people are in your party, and make sure you have them out before her. Yukari is can hurt, but not until the end phase buff thingie, at that point you should simply be able to nuke her down before she even really does anything though, she IS fragile. Don't save your master spark late in the fight, she'll djinn storm your ass if you wait too long. Rinn is a joke, he never hit hard, he's more of an endurance fight. He really shouldn't be doing much more than 0s most of the time (just hope he doesn't scarlet gold sword your back or something). But his tp-depleting nature can be a pain, just invest some points into TP just for this (If you're like me, everyone still had only 1 or 2 skillpoints devoted to it, spend a couple more if so, it makes a big diff). Maribel is really the only threat IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 18, 2010, 09:18:24 PM
Got pages 4 and 5 done for formatting for delay/lvl info.  Page 6 I'm not touching till it gets fleshed out a bit more, too many blanks and I dont feel like trying to fix something I have no clue on.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 18, 2010, 10:05:31 PM
And I've filled out pages 4 and 5 now, plus added grade rankings for all 5 pages. Whew~!

Now to do 14F :<
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 19, 2010, 01:52:18 AM
Sorry. Those of us that are there cheated and the rest of us have already quit or moved on to a second playthrough.

I've seen said boss, but been to lazy to actually beat him. I think I may just not and get straight to playthrough 2.

You guys are lamers. But I am just a crazy fool.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 19, 2010, 01:53:17 AM
You guys are lamers. But I am just a crazy fool.
I'll get to him eventually... >: I just wanna finish my second playthrough and do it off of that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 19, 2010, 09:39:31 AM
I'll get to him eventually... >: I just wanna finish my second playthrough and do it off of that.

New Game Pluses are completely unnecessary but I can see where the sentiment comes from.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 19, 2010, 10:06:54 AM
Wait, this game has new game pluses? What carries over into those?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 19, 2010, 11:09:09 AM
You guys are lamers. But I am just a crazy fool.

I don't want to do 5-600 level ups. Beating the boss with a level 1 team and 100000% buff is fine enough for me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 19, 2010, 11:32:11 AM
Ok I beat Trio, Rumia, Cirno and Flan-chan V.2s :D. Of all the remaining V.2s who should I pwn next?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 19, 2010, 10:04:55 PM
New Game Pluses are completely unnecessary but I can see where the sentiment comes from.
Wait, this game has new game pluses? What carries over into those?
what

Nono, I'm just doing another playthrough with different characters, and not messing up the level-up bonuses this time either ^^;

At this point I wouldn't want to go to my previous save for Plus-Disk anymore anyway, because several characters I'm starting to like... turns out I pumped the wrong stat with their Level-Ups last time, oopsie! Besides, I'm already on 14F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 20, 2010, 12:55:26 AM
Someone mind making a guide for the three final plus disk bosses?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 20, 2010, 08:51:24 AM
Someone mind making a guide for the three final plus disk bosses?

I'm willing to do it, if you'd like.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 20, 2010, 09:46:54 AM
I'm willing to do it, if you'd like.

Yea, I would.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 20, 2010, 09:59:30 AM
Yea, I would.

Here is what I have so far (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Chaos_Mirror_Forums/index.php?showtopic=805). I have not included the Middle Boss yet, but I will do it sometime later today.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 20, 2010, 09:03:27 PM
How do I unlock final boss 2.0?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 20, 2010, 09:06:21 PM
How do I unlock final boss 2.0?
Get 5 stars. You know those 4 paths in the middle of 20F? That you go past right after climbing 19F stairs and going through all the warps? Those 4 paths. Unlock all the seals in them. You'll have to have 5 stars to reach all four of them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 20, 2010, 10:25:15 PM
Get 5 stars. You know those 4 paths in the middle of 20F? That you go past right after climbing 19F stairs and going through all the warps? Those 4 paths. Unlock all the seals in them. You'll have to have 5 stars to reach all four of them.

I should have figured the seals to unlock her would be pre-plus disk. Facing her at plus disk levels makes the battle too easy...
as an example, I could 2-shot Great Tetragrammaton (the supposedly invulnerable top minion) and kill him before he could move with Shikieiki, not that it mattered.

Anyway, is it usual behavior to be able to kill final boss before she goes into her last phase, or is this exclusive to ver. 2? Master Spark's 1.4 million damage was enough after I disposed of her minions.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 20, 2010, 10:32:02 PM
Anyway, is it usual behavior to be able to kill final boss before she goes into her last phase, or is this exclusive to ver. 2? Master Spark's 1.4 million damage was enough after I disposed of her minions.
If you can deal an insane amount of damage, any 1-HP tink will kill her after her minions are gone. Original or not. She can't die before that, though, since v1.13.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 21, 2010, 12:10:49 PM
Ok, what level should I be for the Bloody Seal on 1F, the Hibachi duo. Also, if you can tell me what level I should be for those 2 Sigil Guardians on the Plus Disk floors, that would be nice:D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 21, 2010, 02:03:35 PM
On the 7th floor looking for Nitori. Anything to make her spawn easily or just luck? So far I've done the other 3 parts(2 events + 8th floor battle). I encountered her once on the 7th floor but I ran(Most of my party was gone at the time and I wasn't gonna risk it).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 21, 2010, 05:03:59 PM
Ok, what level should I be for the Bloody Seal on 1F, the Hibachi duo. Also, if you can tell me what level I should be for those 2 Sigil Guardians on the Plus Disk floors, that would be nice:D


They were the last thing of the normal content I beat, and easily the toughest. I'd say Lv. 185ish Reimu, or a little more to be safe.

On the 7th floor looking for Nitori. Anything to make her spawn easily or just luck? So far I've done the other 3 parts(2 events + 8th floor battle). I encountered her once on the 7th floor but I ran(Most of my party was gone at the time and I wasn't gonna risk it).

Running away from her counts actually; the purpose of the encounter on F7 is to display the event on F7 on the map, which you've already triggered anyway. Just go on up to F9 and she'd be waiting fairly close to the entrance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 21, 2010, 08:42:31 PM
Ok, what level should I be for the Bloody Seal on 1F, the Hibachi duo. Also, if you can tell me what level I should be for those 2 Sigil Guardians on the Plus Disk floors, that would be nice:D

I'd say lvl 165-170 for the final bloodstained seal boss. At that level your tanks + Reimu should be able to survive the bosses' normal attacks, so it becomes a game of killing them simultaneously, without also triggering their uber attacks by leaving them both at too low hp. As such, the Yukari+Kaguya duo is ideal for this fight, with Rinnosuke to quickly buff. Note three things:
- Managing the order of battle is crucial when using Yukari (one reason why I decline to pump speed on her). She needs to move last.
- Kaguya always moves after Yukari's Spiriting Away, so you can fire off Hourai Barrage and then swap her and Yukari out without screwing up your formation.
- Yukari and Kaguya will be at 0% gauge after using their spells. This isn't a problem, as once you switch them back in they'll be back at starting gauge.

6 castings of Hourai Barrage won the fight for me. If you don't feel like using Kaguya, be prepared to either play counting games or level until you can survive their later phases.

As for the plus disks bosses, which seal guardians are you talking about? Some hints for the ones I've beaten,
21F Baal Avatar is a hard-hitting physical attacker with 6 million HP whose attacks become more damaging as he loses hp. Luckily, his nature makes it easy to prep for him (you only need to buff defense, and he only inflicts one status effect, silence). If you want to be safe, keep track of his hp and nuke him down in a final assault once you can. Try attempting him around lvl 200.

22F boss is fast, has 10 million hp, and casts Destroy Magic every third turn, but his damage output is weak. I had no trouble with him at lvl 200 (don't recall if I used any particular strategy).

24F Burninator is a total joke since he can be kept in paralysis lockdown (use Suwako for this). Just survive his opener (Komachi with fire res should) and make sure you have enough sp to nuke him to oblivion, and you win.

25F boss is a luck-based encounter whose difficulty is dictated by how often he uses Strengthen Jitsu. Work on cutting down his 11 million hp asap, and if he buffs bring out Tenshi and your debuffers (+Yukari) and pray. It took me a couple tries at lvl 220.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 21, 2010, 09:30:07 PM

Running away from her counts actually; the purpose of the encounter on F7 is to display the event on F7 on the map, which you've already triggered anyway. Just go on up to F9 and she'd be waiting fairly close to the entrance.

I kinda figured since I was able to fight her. So far I'm at floor 10 with everyone except Sanae(Foe is too strong for me). My main party is as follows

Reimu
Marisa
Remilia
China
Sakuya
Patchouli
Chen
Aya
Yuugi
Iku
Alice
Komachi

Any specific changes I should make? Haven't done much exploration of Floor 10 yet.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 21, 2010, 09:49:40 PM
Okay, someone seems to be filling in the info for Plus-Disk characters as they receive them, and said they would fill in the Level-Up modifier info if they knew how to calculate it.

Well, we have everything needed to find it out, but I haven't bothered to actually give an equation or something you would use to learn it. So, lets see here...

B x M = R
Base exp (for that level up) times the character's level-up Modifer=required EXP to level. Well, we only know R right off the bat, since the game tells us what that is. This means that R/M=B is true, so lets take advantage.

Now, by dividing R with M you get B, so we figure out B using a non-Plus character who is at the SAME LEVEL as the Plus-Disk one. For example, Reimu's required experience to level divided by .9 (Her modifier is 90, which means 0.90). The number you receive is the base exp for said level-up, you can now fill in B and R in the equation.

Lets see an example for Level 61. Reimu's required EXP to level is 42184. Divide by .9, which is her Level-Up Modifier (aka, 90). You get 46871.111111(etcetc), the base experience needed to reach level 62 from 61.

Minoriko is also level 61, and requires 41247 experience. Lets find out her Level-Up Modifier using the Base Experience for this level-up that we just discovered.

46871.11111(etc) x M = 41247

Yay, algebra time. I don't know what to do at this point and don't feel like figuring out because I'm lazy, so just divide 41247 by some number, go up or down to get closer and closer to the Base Experience until you obtain the correct number(Or as close as possible, then round the number). Multiply the number you found by 100, this is the character's level-up modifier. The answer to this equation is 88, by the way.

I wonder if anyone will understand what I just explained. Maybe if I had figured out the last part, it would have helped, but I'm stumped. If you don't understand, just get some Plus-Disk characters to the same level as a Non-Plus one, and tell me their required EXP to level so I can do the rest  :V


Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 21, 2010, 11:17:27 PM
Final Boss Ver2 taken down with Reimu at lv230.  That was a fun and nicely difficult fight I must say.

Two new characters joined, 3 left to go...all of which I would have to fight and all of which would kill me violently at this point :P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 22, 2010, 12:43:24 AM
You know, reading back its amazing how far this topic has come. At first people were telling me that using aquabitch was the worst possible mistakes you could do, now nobody is even suggesting to bench her. Then people pretty much agreed greenie was awesome, now everyone agrees there's no legitimate reason to use her over Minoriko.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 22, 2010, 12:48:24 AM
You know, reading back its amazing how far this topic has come. At first people were telling me that using aquabitch was the worst possible mistakes you could do, now nobody is even suggesting to bench her. Then people pretty much agreed greenie was awesome, now everyone agrees there's no legitimate reason to use her over Minoriko.
She certainly isn't horrible, but I don't find her terribly useful compared to other choices for an ATK-based character... maybe if they release a later official patch, since that means her Megawatt gets a huge damage boost.

And 8F healer still has her upsides compared to Minoriko; her heal cures debuffs and status afflictions, and her buff increases all stats, and her attacks are better when not fighting stuff that takes 0 damage. But, she is much higher delays, and heals less HP... ehh, both are good. Which one is better depends on your other support characters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 22, 2010, 12:51:38 AM
She certainly isn't horrible, but I don't find her terribly useful compared to other choices for an ATK-based character... maybe if they release a later official patch, since that means her Megawatt gets a huge damage boost.
Well, her NTR attack is good for enemies that take 0 damage from most other moves, her CLD one works wonders on fire bosses, her self-buff ups her speed, and x5 attack is still pretty freaking huge considering its SP cost (even most 100+ SP moves normally won't do more than x2 or x3 attack).

I originally used her out of spite, but now I don't think I'd drop her if you paid me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 22, 2010, 01:12:41 AM
Well, her NTR attack is good for enemies that take 0 damage from most other moves, her CLD one works wonders on fire bosses, her self-buff ups her speed, and x5 attack is still pretty freaking huge considering its SP cost (even most 100+ SP moves normally won't do more than x2 or x3 attack).

I originally used her out of spite, but now I don't think I'd drop her if you paid me.

You'll drop her once you get plus disc characters.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 22, 2010, 01:30:38 AM
what's this about a non official patch anyway.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 22, 2010, 01:33:40 AM
what's this about a non official patch anyway.
The website mentions a 2.05 patch, maybe it even said 2.06. However, it also said that these have bugs and glitches in them.

The only difference I've seen noted in these later patches is a hefty increase in Nitori's Megawatt's damage, although seeing some other neigh-useless characters buffed would be nice; like Rumia!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 22, 2010, 01:48:31 AM
There's a 2.05 and 2.06 patch that was released but it was in testing phase and had a lot of bugs, so 2.04 is still considered the "official" release.

2.05:
-Changes to Megawatt
-Cursor memory when doing level ups (OH GOD YES, I always transfer my save to my 2.06 version when I want to catch up a character from far now)
-New Game +, unlocked I think when you defeat the plus disk final boss? Allows you to choose whether to carry over skill points, items, exp, and whether to start with all characters unlocked.

2.06:
-Sound test
-Function to turn off spell effects in battle
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 22, 2010, 02:12:05 AM
Final Boss Ver2 taken down with Reimu at lv230.  That was a fun and nicely difficult fight I must say.

Two new characters joined, 3 left to go...all of which I would have to fight and all of which would kill me violently at this point :P.

24F and 26F should be doable at this stage. At least consider beating 26F so you can rush to 27F; the enemies give great exp and the Liliths give a ridiculous number of skill points (91000 IIRC).

Specific hints:
Yuka (15 million hp, goes into phase 2 when down to 3 million hp): Buff NTR resist and get a fire attacker - Alice was my choice. None of Yuka's attacks should then be that damaging (possible exception of Beauty of Nature, which despite its animation does whole damage). Good dps is essential for combating Reflowering of Gensokyo, her 1.5 million hp self-heal. Bring multiple nukers to handle the contingency of getting magic drained.

The real danger with Yuka is killing her after she casts Focus. You'll need to do 3 million burst damage. I handled it with a fully buffed team of Yukari, Kaguya, Flandre, and Alice.

Shikieiki (14 million hp): IMO easier than the Yuka fight. Shikieiki uses a 80k single target nuke which ignores defense every third turn, exclusively on the 1st character slot. Thus you should bring out Komachi and Eirin. With the exception of this gimmick the fight is straightforward, so just nuke her into the ground. Be sure to kill her after she casts Focus; unlike Yuka she will not have a lot of hp, so Master Spark or comparable attacks will suffice.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 22, 2010, 02:27:19 AM
There's a 2.05 and 2.06 patch that was released but it was in testing phase and had a lot of bugs, so 2.04 is still considered the "official" release.

2.05:
-Changes to Megawatt
-Cursor memory when doing level ups (OH GOD YES, I always transfer my save to my 2.06 version when I want to catch up a character from far now)
-New Game +, unlocked I think when you defeat the plus disk final boss? Allows you to choose whether to carry over skill points, items, exp, and whether to start with all characters unlocked.

2.06:
-Sound test
-Function to turn off spell effects in battle
CURSOR MEMORY OH GOD YES OH GOD

OH GOD YEEEEEEEEEES

Also, New Game+ with all characters unlocked would be interesting; especially considering that unlike the starters, most characters don't have a really cheap skill.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Chen on January 22, 2010, 02:30:12 AM
 ???
How are you supposed to beat Alice?
She always heal-spams me.
Bawwwwww.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 22, 2010, 02:34:28 AM
???
How are you supposed to beat Alice?
She always heal-spams me.
Bawwwwww.
Use Patchouli's Royal Flare and Marisa's Asteroid Belt, as well as any other attack to kill off the healing light.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 22, 2010, 02:35:54 AM
Basically any piercing attacks should do the trick against the healing doll. Rumia's Dark Side of the Moon is another good option.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 22, 2010, 02:38:02 AM
Or alternatively, massively nuke the left/right dolls one at a time, killing them before the healer doll can heal them. They have about 14k HP.

Alice doesn't bring out her attacks until Healer is down, so this is easier... although you may not be able to do enough damage for this strategy, depending on how your team is. Killing Healer first will surely work as long as you can survive the barrage of attacks afterwards.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 22, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
FIRST POST

Battle tips

Okay, my Reimu is level 251, and I just got my ass handed to me by
Yuka
. I couldn't even hurt her enough to make her start healing, and I spent a good 15 minutes before completely wiping. I buffed up my NTR element before the battle on my tanks and main damage characters, and yet her attacks went through like I didn't have any DEF or MND at all. 10k dmg on my 10F fully buffed? What the hell?
Are her attacks DEF/MND ignoring? I must be doing something horribly wrong otherwise.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 22, 2010, 07:36:44 PM
Okay, my Reimu is level 251, and I just got my ass handed to me by
Yuka
. I couldn't even hurt her enough to make her start healing, and I spent a good 15 minutes before completely wiping. I buffed up my NTR element before the battle on my tanks and main damage characters, and yet her attacks went through like I didn't have any DEF or MND at all. 10k dmg on my 10F fully buffed? What the hell?
Are her attacks DEF/MND ignoring? I must be doing something horribly wrong otherwise.

Are your dps/support characters getting 1-shotted? 24F is not that fast, and her big nukes greatly deplete her active gauge, so healing should be able to control any damage she does. 10k damage isn't big at plus disk levels.

Some stats for my party at the time:
Remi 201 - 44k/20k/15k HP/Def/Mnd, 500 NTR
Rinnosuke 195 - 33k/21k/20k HP/Def/Mnd, 360 NTR
Reimu 230 - 32k/12k/23k HP/Def/Mnd, 290 NTR
Yukari 194 - 29k/18k/26k HP/Def/Mnd, 290 NTR
Alice 209 - 26k/13k/27k HP/Def/Mnd, 300 NTR, 40k MAG - nukes for ~600k
Note that 24F has the capability to 2-shot my party with her big nukes. This however will never happen, since with any sort of +MAG% Reimu will full heal my party. Even if Reimu gets magic drained (and this did happen to me), enough sp recovery will allow her to heal when needed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 23, 2010, 12:06:43 AM
Wow, such a grind wall... I can't beat any Plus disk foes at all, unless Bloody Papa or the pair of Hibachi's count. DID manage to beat the Flame Tyrant, but only because it didn't open with a really powerful move, giving me time to inflict PAR on it. What level should I be for Plus Disk content?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 23, 2010, 06:27:32 AM
I beat Baal Avatar, yet I still cannot withstand Yuka's flowers.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tankatron on January 23, 2010, 02:04:31 PM
Pfffffft.
Okay this is silly. Ran into this enemy on the 28th floor.I had fought him before with other enemies but this time it was alone so I thought "oh hey this'll be easy."

No matter what I threw at that thing it didn't die. It had to have way more than 3 million HP. Worst part is, I even was able to cause DTH status on it...and it didn't die.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 23, 2010, 03:19:05 PM
Pfffffft.
Okay this is silly. Ran into this enemy on the 28th floor.I had fought him before with other enemies but this time it was alone so I thought "oh hey this'll be easy."

No matter what I threw at that thing it didn't die. It had to have way more than 3 million HP. Worst part is, I even was able to cause DTH status on it...and it didn't die.

It's 4 of the same enemy stacked on top of one another. You should've already seen this gimmick in Floor 19 with the Solar Demon Kings. Each has about 1.8 mil HP, so yeah.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tankatron on January 23, 2010, 04:14:40 PM
It's 4 of the same enemy stacked on top of one another. You should've already seen this gimmick in Floor 19 with the Solar Demon Kings. Each has about 1.8 mil HP, so yeah.

Oh okay that makes a bit more sense. I was wondering how it had multiple turns and attacked even when it's action bar wasn't full.

Well now that's just silly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 23, 2010, 04:23:56 PM
4? I thought it was 5, Been awhile though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 23, 2010, 04:49:37 PM
Quote
It's 4 of the same enemy stacked on top of one another

Wat. 4 of 1 enemy in a fight AND they are sharing the exact same spot ._.

Quote
You should've already seen this gimmick in Floor 19 with the Solar Demon Kings

How many of them were on top of each other? 4 again? They fell fast though
even when summoned by the 20F varient of them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 24, 2010, 12:54:29 AM
Wat. 4 of 1 enemy in a fight AND they are sharing the exact same spot ._.

How many of them were on top of each other? 4 again? They fell fast though
even when summoned by the 20F varient of them.

yeah, they share the same spot, though once again I thought it was 5 >=P.

As for the solar demons on floor 19, it is sometimes 2, sometimes 1.

You can tell you have more than 1 enemy sharing the same spot because if you push left or right, you'll hear the selection noise. In addition the numbers sometimes appear a bit wonky since they overlap. Or you'll notice that you cast evil sealing circle, and you get attacked even though you saw "par", etc.

Personally I find these fights kinda exciting. Silly probably but I just get a kick outta them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 24, 2010, 05:04:31 AM
WTF! >:( I was fighting a boss earlyer, it used a Row Attack that hit the 1st char, Rinnosuke for 26k and the other 3 chars for less, nothing odd there. But the weird and enraging bit is that Rinnosuke who was at full HP, just over 29k, got KO'ed by the attack. Can anyone explain this? The Row Attack used was Iai/Lai Slash
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 24, 2010, 05:23:44 AM
was it by the floor 21 boss? that boss is bs.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 24, 2010, 06:47:45 AM
WTF! >:( I was fighting a boss earlyer, it used a Row Attack that hit the 1st char, Rinnosuke for 26k and the other 3 chars for less, nothing odd there. But the weird and enraging bit is that Rinnosuke who was at full HP, just over 29k, got KO'ed by the attack. Can anyone explain this? The Row Attack used was Iai/Lai Slash

It has a chance of instant death probably.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 24, 2010, 06:57:51 AM
Not Insta-Death, I did not see DTH pop up on anyone, plus said char who died has, with current equips, 39 DTH resist.

Quote
was it by the floor 21 boss? that boss is bs

Baal Avatar? Yes, that was who I was fighting. Odd thing, I encountered this same BS with a few other bosses, specificly the 16F, 18F and 20F bosses pulled this same crap, dealing more damage then what the attack said. In fact, In 1 fight Vs the 20F boss, someone got hit for 0 yet lost 1000 HP, and that char had no ailments in place.

All in all, I need to grind... MOAR.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 24, 2010, 08:29:54 AM
Not Insta-Death, I did not see DTH pop up on anyone, plus said char who died has, with current equips, 39 DTH resist.

Baal Avatar? Yes, that was who I was fighting. Odd thing, I encountered this same BS with a few other bosses, specificly the 16F, 18F and 20F bosses pulled this same crap, dealing more damage then what the attack said. In fact, In 1 fight Vs the 20F boss, someone got hit for 0 yet lost 1000 HP, and that char had no ailments in place.

All in all, I need to grind... MOAR.

skip the boss until you're at like floor 26. I'm serious.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 24, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
For people who want the delicious Level-Up Cursor Memory, here is a link to the 2.06 patch.

http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/thLabyrinth/thLabyrinth_ver2.06.zip

Rename the thLaby.exe in this folder to thLaby2.06.exe or something, and copy all this into your game folder, minus the save file.

Whenever you need to level up a single character a ton, start 2.06 so you don't have to scroll down to the correct Level-Up bonus each time, saving a HUUUUGE amount of time for you since now you just spam Z a bunch.

I recommend against actually using 2.06 for casual play however, because of bugs and glitches. The only significant changes anyway are this, Nitori's Megawatt is much stronger, and there is a New Game+ function (Which you can probably activate in 2.06 and then play in 2.04)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on January 24, 2010, 08:33:04 PM
FFFFFF Alice is impossible. :<
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Anima Zero on January 25, 2010, 12:29:16 AM
FFFFFF Alice is impossible. :<

Yeah, she can potentially be a toughie.  Healing Doll is kinda hard to off early on since it gets a DEF + MND buff from the Magic and Shield Dolls first turn they get unless you can throw out some piercing attacks.  Best to focus on wiping out the Magic Doll first off I'd say as it poses the overall worst threat early on due to constant elemental party attacks.  Just make sure to throw only the strongest hits you can manage since the Healing Doll has a single target heal spell that recovers quite a bit of HP (It's MT heal spell isn't worth mentioning).

Once it dies, focus on the Healing Doll.  Best to use Royal Flare and any other strong party attacks.  The more damaged Alice is when the Healing Doll goes out, the better.  That's when Alice starts breaking out her more deadly attacks (Little Legion and Seeker Dolls to be precise).  Before that she focuses mainly on status afflicting spells.

Shield Doll is not really a huge threat.  Worst I've seen it do is a shield bash attack for like 200-300ish dmg to a single target.  Easy enough to leave this for last.

Finally...around lv18-20 or so is the recommended level I believe.

As for me...26F boss went down early this afternoon.  Took 2 tries to beat.  1st time I couldn't quite do enough damage after her Focus to off her before getting owned by her super attack.

Before the 2nd attempt, changed my party up a bit.  Namely adding Youmu into the mix for another high damage dealer after Focus.  Had to grind a bit so I had enough skill points to put into her attack.

And after all the prepping I did for the battle?

...She never used Focus on her 2nd attempt.  I didn't even have a chance to break out my 100% MAG buffed Marisa for a Master Spark.  Youmu for that matter only came out twice the whole battle.  First time so she and 15F optional could get buffed by 18F character's super buff.  Second time was to throw a SoE in the boss's face.

Wonder if my semi-stalling halfway through the battle had anything to do with Focus not being used.  I was paranoid about having some characters ready to switch in my burst damage dealers when Focus was used.  Reimu was lv252 for this fight.

Afterwards, upgraded my newly acquired character (1st skill is pretty useful), went to map 26F out fully.

27F...holy god I love Lilith's skill points they give per kill.  Must have gotten 6-8 mil in pure skill points just exploring and mapping the entire floor minus the boss blocking the way to the next floor.

Before I take on that boss, think I'm gonna go fight the 24F optional.  I was planning to try to take out the 21F optional first.  That did not go so well.

Reimu lv272 right now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 01:32:02 AM
I just got this game. I have no idea how it works, or if I'll like it. Let's see how this goes. :S
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 01:40:54 AM
I just got this game. I have no idea how it works, or if I'll like it. Let's see how this goes. :S
Yeah, I saw you post in here and was like "Really? =o". Don't worry though, its a pretty great game, although quite difficult at times.

For starters, Attack command is only for finishing off nearly-dead stuff, and will only do good damage on people with a good ATK stat. Focus recovers an amount of SP relevant to a character's SP Recovery stat. Escape works 100% of the time, but drains 3 TP from your 4 active characters.

Each active character will lose 1 TP at the end of battle, and they will lose more if they HP is below full. After running out of TP (or HP, for that matter), they return to Gensokyo. You get them back as soon as you return. And no, you do not get Game Over if all active characters run out of TP.

Your (up to)8 characters in reserve regain SP as if they were using Focus. This is will be very noticeable after you get a few more characters. They also regain HP, but since HP refills after every battle, you won't notice that as much.

As for Level-Up bonuses, I recommend devoting it completely to a character's most important stat, which is almost always either ATK or MAG. In the case of some tanking characters however, (Meiling, and some others you get later) it is best to use either HP, DEF, or MND, depending on who it is. For the character mentioned, I'd recommend DEF.

Skill Point bonuses... it doesn't really matter if you mess up much, since the skill points you spend on one floor will be trivial by the time you get another floor or two into the game. But, since all Stat-bonuses in the game are based off of a percentage, you should still concentrate on a character's good stats.

Hmm... that is the most important stuff to know, so that you won't screw up your characters, and so you'll know the basics of gameplay.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 01:51:40 AM
...

D:

Well, knowing that attack is SUPPOSED to be so weak is good to know. However, I know almost nothing of what any of these stats do...

Anyway, after figuring out how to save, learning the hard way that dying isn't the way to return to Gensokyo, and watching everyone get decimated by kedamas, it's time to try some more...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 01:59:56 AM
ATK:Used for Attack command, and for calculating damage (Sometimes healing) in Physical skills
DEF:Reduces damage from physical attacks
MAG:Increases damage/heal of Magical skills
MND:Decreases damage from Magical skills
SPD:Makes the action gauge fill up faster
EVD:Does NOTHING. Do NOT bother increasing this.

Composite attacks are based on ATK and MAG together, but you should still just concentrate on a single stat for level-up boosts on composite attacking characters. Reimu needs MAG to help her Multi-Heal, anyway.

Resistances are your resistance to receiving a status effect. If the res. is 20, you have a 60% chance to not get hit by it, 10=30%, 34=102%(Immune), etc.

Affinities are... well, when you get attacked by an elemental attack, it goes "Damage x (affinity/100)", so if you have an affinity of 100 you take normal damage... 200 is half damage, 50 is double, 25 is x4 damage, 300 is 1/3 damage, etc.


And if you haven't figured it out, X opens the menu where you can return to Gensokyo and such, while A opens a minimap of the floor.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 02:18:46 AM
I think I'm starting to get this...and if I don't, I just have to grind a bunch. :V

I should ask: The rest function is useful...TOO useful. Is there a limit to the amount of times I can use it or something?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 02:20:25 AM
I think I'm starting to get this...and if I don't, I just have to grind a bunch. :V
Ahh, the universal solution. Also, later in the game, you get the alternative "I can't win! Time to totally cheese the boss with Tenshiwalling.". You just can't lose when everything does 0 damage... but, it really doesn't feel right.

I should ask: The rest function is useful...TOO useful. Is there a limit to the amount of times I can use it or something?
It may be nice when you start out, but after you get a few more characters it will suck. And in case you didn't notice, it drains 2 TP from everyone  :V

Yeah, after you get some more people, the SP you recover from being in reserve will do the job most of the time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 25, 2010, 03:27:54 AM
I need some suggestions to maybe improve my main party.  (I just arrived at F15 and I have all the characters except
Orin (Dunno if I'm strong enough)
)

My main party includes :

Meiling for my main tank (I find her easier to use then Tenshi)
Ran for the.. ATK/MAG and DEF/MND buff
Reimu for the Healing and Barrier spell
Patchouli for nuking
Tenshi for backup tank when Meiling went down
Sakuya for SPD buff
Marisa for destroying things
Remilia for partially tanking and attacking
Sanae for healing and Miracle Fruit
Aya for swapping characters and SPD buff
Youmu for extra damages
Yuugi for tank and hitting with Three Steps and the other one
(I play non-translated one cause I can read Japanese anyway and I'm not really sure of English translated spell names)

I also want to add
Yuyuko
because she's my favorite character but I don't think I have the space for her.  So..  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tankatron on January 25, 2010, 03:36:06 AM
Well gee! It's about time I reached the 30F. I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to stay on floor 29 for now to grind. Anyone know the recommended level for the floor 30 enemies?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 25, 2010, 03:38:05 AM
Well gee! It's about time I reached the 30F. I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to stay on floor 29 for now to grind. Anyone know the recommended level for the floor 30 enemies?

Not a level recommendation, but no, not 29. There is NO REASON to do your end game grinding anywhere other than floor 27.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 25, 2010, 04:16:48 AM
Well gee! It's about time I reached the 30F. I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to stay on floor 29 for now to grind. Anyone know the recommended level for the floor 30 enemies?

The min level is about 350 I think, but you might want to wait till 400 since only rinnosukke and yukkari is worth fighting anyways. Also floor 26 has zun hats so you might want to stay there for a while.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 04:37:01 AM
Yay, I recruited my first character! ^_^ *hops up and down* I recruited Meiling, but Chen ran me through when I tried to fight her. :(

I should ask now to get out of the way: Characters who don't fight don't get exp, do they? :( Not only that, but only the ones who are in battle when the opponents are beaten get the exp, right?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 25, 2010, 05:03:30 AM
Everyone will get xp, all the time.  I believe specifically, front four get 100%, reserve eight get 90%, and anyone chilling in the SDM, as well as anyone you have yet to recruit, will get 80%.  Or something along those lines.  It's fairly negligible, so pretty much anyone at any point in the game will be okay to use with little dedicated investment, and even if you've just recruited them, they'll be just fine.  They may require a bit of skill point allocation as well, but getting a decent amount of skill levels on a new character is really cheap anyway.

Although it's really painful when you recruit plus-disc characters and you have to sit down and allocate a few hundred level bonuses to try them out.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 05:40:46 AM
That's a relief. Also I've defeated Chen and made it to floor 2 (where I was very relieved to learn that there are continue points so I don't have to traipse through everywhere every time I start). This game is not going to be one of those that I'll beat in a few days I can see, but it's also one I would be willing to put in a long commitment for.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 25, 2010, 05:41:59 AM
Reserves (or the ones in the "Back Row") seem to be getting 100% on my end. Yes, I've been playing since a few days ago as well  :V

On that note, I hate 10-12F. Seriously, it's more annoying than frustrating.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on January 25, 2010, 06:14:18 AM
7F is also really annoying. I've never been one for trial-and-error teleport mazes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 25, 2010, 06:48:16 AM
Not a level recommendation, but no, not 29. There is NO REASON to do your end game grinding anywhere other than floor 27.

My friend, I would like to disagree. 30F becomes a great place to level when you hit Lv400+. The enemy drops there are also among the best things you can get in the game, like the Psi Gun, the Rhododendron Dress, and the Necronomicon.

You only have to worry about Utsuho Ver2, Chen Ver3, and Alice Ver3 at that stage. Maybe Rinnosuke Ver3, but he's actually easier at that stage than the first time you fought him. Mokou Ver3 and Yuyuko Ver3 might be scary targets, as well.

To be fair, I only learned to love 30F once I got to levels past 600 when 27F just wasn't cutting it for me, I enjoy getting millions and millions of EXP in under fifteen minutes of OHKOing trash there.

61/100, Lv4550.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 25, 2010, 07:06:41 AM
Anyway, after figuring out how to save, learning the hard way that dying isn't the way to return to Gensokyo, and watching everyone get decimated by kedamas, it's time to try some more...

Chaore. Do you remember back at that time when we talked about Donut getting this game? Fucking called it ;D.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 25, 2010, 07:54:08 AM
???

Anyway, I just got ⑨'d. :< It FELT like I was doing good against Cirno, but she...just...wouldn't...go...down. Also, since I have finals that I should actually worry about, I should stop playing for tonight.

I'll be back...

EDIT: lol one grinding session later and one last try barely netted me a win over Cirno. I have to hand it to these old-fashioned RPGs, they really give you a sense of accomplishment for defeating a boss.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 25, 2010, 08:30:45 AM
Ok so 12F...

Kaguya, Reisen, and Eirin...what order should I go after and what party members should I use?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 09:20:05 AM
Ok so 12F...

Kaguya, Reisen, and Eirin...what order should I go after and what party members should I use?
Reisen is totally up to you. She is always vulnerable to PAR, so if you can keep her perpetually under that effect she is not threat and you can ignore her. If you don't, like me, you can try and take her out first. She has about 175,000 HP.

Kaguya and Eirin you MUST take out at about the same time. Eirin has about 240,000 HP and Kaguya has about 120,000, and if you take out one first the other spams either Astronomical Entombing or Hourai Barrage, which both devistate and potentially instakill your entire party. They will also use their respective super moves once their HP is in the red, which means once you've dealt around 90k damage to Kaguya and 200k-210k damage to Eirin. Either way you will want to be using multi-hit spells on them to the best of your ability and single-targets on Eirin until she starts to get close to her deathbed, at which point, if Reisen is still alive, you can focus them on her so that they will both die to Royal Flare or something. If one dies first don't panic; just focus all possible attack power on the other and finish them before they can get a turn.

One last bit of advice: Don't use debuffs on the party other than PAR. if at least 3 status effects are on any number of party members (whether its 3 on one person or one on all three), Kaguya will use Buddha's Stone Bowl, which gives them all a HUGE statubuff. Its possible to win still, as I still managed to win after she cast it, but its a problem you're better off not having to deal with in the first place.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: orinrin on January 25, 2010, 11:09:39 AM
Is it a bad thing that I am pouring all my skill points into Cirno, because I want her to become the strongest?  (Perfect Freeze is rape.)  Right now I am trying to figure out why I can't kill Yuugi, because I deal pretty much 0 damage to her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 25, 2010, 11:34:53 AM
Is it a bad thing that I am pouring all my skill points into Cirno, because I want her to become the strongest?  (Perfect Freeze is rape.)  Right now I am trying to figure out why I can't kill Yuugi, because I deal pretty much 0 damage to her.

She has around 60000 HP. KO3S hurts, so be careful.
Her weakness is Spirit elemental, and she resists Heat and Mystic.
Asteroid Belt and Dark Side of the Moon are good ways to deal with Yuugi's defenses.

Try using Cirno's SPD debuff and Reimu's PAR attack.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 04:39:41 PM
Is it a bad thing that I am pouring all my skill points into Cirno, because I want her to become the strongest?
I did that at first with Chen to help her damage output since she could smack most bosses like 4 times before the enemy could move, but its really a better idea to spread it around best you can.

Oh, and don't bother investing skillpoints into her defenses, as she's too fragile for it to be worthwhile. Speed I think is a lost cause too. Bad stats stay bad, so you're really best not investing in them at all at this point in the game.

EDIT: On the subject of my own game, you all told me I'd regret using greenie because everything from my point onward (16F) would spam Djinn Storm and make her impossible to use. While I can't beat the boss of the floor in question, she doesn't spam it anywhere near that much and, while certainly crippling, its a problem that affects ALL my characters and not just her. Not having healing for a while is bad, yes, but I can at least compensate by swapping people around since they also get healed while on the bench. I have more than one character for most of the jobs in my team for a reason.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 25, 2010, 05:03:01 PM
Is it a bad thing that I am pouring all my skill points into Cirno, because I want her to become the strongest?  (Perfect Freeze is rape.)  Right now I am trying to figure out why I can't kill Yuugi, because I deal pretty much 0 damage to her.

Cirno and Reimu's attacks are composite (ATK+MAG VS DEF+MND). Yuugi's MND is pretty bad but her DEF is sky high, so composite attacks aren't going to do much to her.

As also said, she's somewhat resistant to FIR and MYS, so your best damage dealer will likely be Patchy's Silent Selene. Alice's Seeker Dolls also does decent damage, while Marisa and Rumia still do okay damage with Magic Missile and Moonlight Ray despite the MYS resistance. Your main goal is to keep these 4 alive somehow and keep them spamming attacks.

EDIT: On the subject of my own game, you all told me I'd regret using greenie because everything from my point onward (16F) would spam Djinn Storm and make her impossible to use. While I can't beat the boss of the floor in question, she doesn't spam it anywhere near that much and, while certainly crippling, its a problem that affects ALL my characters and not just her. Not having healing for a while is bad, yes, but I can at least compensate by swapping people around since they also get healed while on the bench. I have more than one character for most of the jobs in my team for a reason.

16F boss uses Djinn Storm no more (and possibly less) than 2 times. I did a large writeup on the first page if you want more details.

And I settled that debate by... well, using all four of the main healers. It's not like healing is the only thing any of them can do after all. Though admittedly I have a very defensive playstyle against bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 05:39:56 PM
16F boss uses Djinn Storm no more (and possibly less) than 2 times. I did a large writeup on the first page if you want more details.
Honestly, advice for bosses from here on out would be lovely. Recommended levels would be nice too (Reimu is 77 right now), since I'm pretty much past the point where strategy can trump a boss even if you're below the recommended level (I know its pretty possible early on if you get lucky enough to not have to deal with heavier attacks too often, but around F10 that ceases to be the case...).

Quote
And I settled that debate by... well, using all four of the main healers. It's not like healing is the only thing any of them can do after all. Though admittedly I have a very defensive playstyle against bosses.
Yeah, this is why I hesitate to drop medicinebitch. Overhealing the tanks, even the low HP one (and herself for that matter), really goes a long way in helping you survive.

EDIT: I'm starting to think I should learn how to fix up wikis... Looking at the character list firebitch's description makes her sound like a terrible character. Granted, there are a couple other of durable casters by the time she joins, but she's the only one focused on almost absolute offense (Reimu and goldenbitch are pretty much entirely support), meaning she can stay in the active party to dish out impressive amounts of damage for a very good while, even in the dreaded slot #2 if you've put a bit of skillpoint levels into her defenses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 25, 2010, 08:55:28 PM
I need some suggestions to maybe improve my main party.  (I just arrived at F15 and I have all the characters except
Orin (Dunno if I'm strong enough)
)

My main party includes :

Meiling for my main tank (I find her easier to use then Tenshi)
Ran for the.. ATK/MAG and DEF/MND buff
Reimu for the Healing and Barrier spell
Patchouli for nuking
Tenshi for backup tank when Meiling went down
Sakuya for SPD buff
Marisa for destroying things
Remilia for partially tanking and attacking
Sanae for healing and Miracle Fruit
Aya for swapping characters and SPD buff
Youmu for extra damages
Yuugi for tank and hitting with Three Steps and the other one
(I play non-translated one cause I can read Japanese anyway and I'm not really sure of English translated spell names)

I also want to add
Yuyuko
because she's my favorite character but I don't think I have the space for her.  So..  Any suggestions?

Your party setup is quite similar to my own. I don't use Youmu though, I also have autumn harvest lady because healing is guud, and I find she does it better than your other healer (I use her more for buffing really, but I find I just can't keep her alive on a boss. I don't know, she's cursed, she goes down easier than anybody), I used your party buffer for awhile, but dumped her for kaggy. At the time I didn't think her buff affects the ENTIRE party (derp moment), probably woudln't have done that if I had noticed, Kaggy is excellent in combination with Patchy though.

Last I don't have Yuugi, I have uhh...someone instead *thinking*, Oh! Alice...

Anyway my own party setup isn't perfect in my opinion, I'd dump a character or two in favor of a couple other ones, but I'm stubborn so too bad for me.
Yuyuko
is a character I really wanted to be good too, but when I first saw her, I figured she'd be useless because of dth attacks not being able to affect bosses, otherwise her stats were basically "Almost like patchy but not as extreme", so better pretty much everything, but lower MND and MAG, with speed that is only barely better. In otherwords, I figured she'd be a glass cannon without Patchy's OOMPH due to poorer mag, and death affects.

HOWEVER, her big spell has one of the biggest multipliers in the game (3X(magX3) - (T.MNDX0.5)) or whatever, absolutely amazing. I'm also not sure, but lowering the delay bar on her smaller attacks is probably nice too (though you lack a slower just like me, so the effect doesn't benefit as much as it could, I myself never bothered to add a slower since every relatively difficult boss always seemed immune to status debuffs for me, I just gave up bothering to try at a certain point).

I personally don't like Youmu much, she just seems like a watered down Remilia with area attacks IMO. Her single attacks don't really top Remi's for me (even her big one, Youmu's lower atk, and lower spd, make it so that it really doesn't outdamage spearing dps wise, despite the huge increase in sp cost). While she might be great for trash, I have a feeling Yuyuko would be better (if not the best in the game...
except
for Flandre probably).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 25, 2010, 09:10:11 PM
EDIT: lol one grinding session later and one last try barely netted me a win over Cirno. I have to hand it to these old-fashioned RPGs, they really give you a sense of accomplishment for defeating a boss.

Really? I find most RPGS are trivial to the point where beating bosses makes me feel like I stole candy from a baby. This one DOES give satisfaction though. I have had some prideful moments beating some bosses in this game.

Alot of people say grinding solves everything, but you CAN beat every manditory boss up to floor 16 or something without grinding. Some of the optional ones too (Nitori for example is often considered a manditory grind boss).

Now if you're using guides to clear thru floors faster than you naturally would otherwise, you probably have to grind. Also, some bosses, if you aren't on par with level, will badluckrape you for it. The next boss you're going to fight for example, basically says "too bad you can't win you suck" if she casts aoe poison on your party first thing in the fight, or spams her aoe attacks too often.

I really suggest people try not to grind if they can't beat a boss easily though, try again and again. You'll be doing yourself an injustice by trivilizing an encounter. Finding an RPG this difficult (without actually needing you to grind) is stupidly rare, savor it.

I stopped playing this game for the last few weeks, feel like starting again.

Anybody know of a way to play in window mode, but resize the window? I *REALLY* hate how small it is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 25, 2010, 09:16:11 PM
I read on one of the earlier poosh threads that the window sizes were hardcoded.

:suwakodwi:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 09:24:59 PM
This game is not going to be one of those that I'll beat in a few days I can see, but it's also one I would be willing to put in a long commitment for.
It took me 50 hours on my first play, until I beat the Final Boss. And then of course, there is a whole bunch of post-game content, even if you don't consider Plus-Disk!

It was worth every minute, though, and I can't wait to do Plus-Disk... because for some reason I wanted to do a second play with new characters before I did Plus-Disk. I think this team is working a lot better, and NOT cheesing bosses with Tenshi makes it much more satisfying~

On that note, I hate 10-12F. Seriously, it's more annoying than frustrating.
Don't worry, that is probably the worst part of the game. Just bear in mind you are doing 3 floors at once. 13F has an weird gimmick too, but can be fun; and if you REALLY dislike it, all the solutions for 13F are on the wiki.

And yes, if you don't explore everywhere in 10~12F puzzle, you'll miss out on not one but TWO characters. If you are neither a completionist, or looking to play post-game content, it doesn't matter too much though.

Other then that, the only floor with much irritation is 18F, and the sheer fact that you've almost reached the end will get you through.

Now if you're using guides to clear thru floors faster than you naturally would otherwise, you probably have to grind. Also, some bosses, if you aren't on par with level, will badluckrape you for it.
Yeah, speeding through with a guide isn't a good idea. You want to explore every inch of every floor so that
A.You get all the treasures and events (Missing out on characters or awesome equipment will make you go -sadface-)
B.You will have to do much much less grinding

Using the 13F guide to get all the solutions will still be fine as long as you explore the entire floor, though. Even if you do it the normal way, I'd recommend looking at the guide afterwards to pick up the awesome equipment the floor has to offer.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 09:35:25 PM
Reccomended level for 16F beech?

Team and strategy info:
I'm currently setting up Tenshi and Eirin to be the big two tankers reccomended in the first page of the topic. I swapped Yuugi for Eirin temporarily because poor Yuugi doesn't stand too much of a chance in this fight. I'm going to swap Mokou for Orin since Orin's Needle Mountain will help a lot more than Fujiwara Volcano. Nitori I'm going to take some time to try and buff the SPI Res of (WND is fine), as since she has my hardest-hitting NTR move outside of Patchy (and is physical to boot) I'm going to assume she'll be my hardest hitter in the fight. I'm not sure who to drop to make room for Reisen, because Patchy and Marisa can break Yukari's obscenely high MND, Reimu and Ran are manditory for buffing, and Meiling is really important backup in case Tenshi or Eirin goes down. I don't want to drop Chen since she has high physical damage output, which works well on Yukari (not to mention incredibly fast SP regeneration). Sanae will be my main healer, and stay on the bench anytime she is not healing or buffing (both to minimize damage taken and to restore SP after djinn storms more easily).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 25, 2010, 09:55:39 PM
Don't worry, that is probably the worst part of the game.
That's all I wanted to hear :earplug:

Anyway, I got
Tenshi
(who seriously looks gamebreaking to me), and
Flan
disappeared off somewhere; I haven't been bothered checking around for her yet. Because I'm worried about "The Trio" of 12F. I've worked out most of it (I think), it's just... I feel underlevelled for the battle (currently have Reimu hovering at Lv50; everyone else is give or take a bit). Well, I should probably look for her first since she's probably easier  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 25, 2010, 10:04:30 PM
For people annoyed by the exploring aspect of the game, maps for all the floors are available here (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/). I relied on these heavily in my playthrough (my computer is so old that exploring large maps actually slows down the game significantly. You might want to watch out for this).

On recommended level ranges, I found the japanese wiki to be accurate up to and including the final boss, at which point it starts to be too conservative. The sheer amount of resources you have late game makes boss fights easier than they might appear at first glance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 25, 2010, 10:05:42 PM
For people annoyed by the exploring aspect of the game, maps for all the floors are available here (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/). I relied on these heavily in my playthrough (my computer is so old that exploring large maps actually slows down the game significantly. You might want to watch out for this).

On recommended level ranges, I found the japanese wiki to be accurate up to and including the final boss, at which point they start to become too conservative. The sheer amount of resources you have late game makes boss fights easier than they might appear at first glance.

Except for Baal avatar, which is a bald faced lie IIRC >=P

Quote
:suwakodwi:

/wrists
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 10:07:35 PM
That's all I wanted to hear :earplug:

Anyway, I got
Tenshi
(who seriously looks gamebreaking to me), and
Flan
disappeared off somewhere; I haven't been bothered checking around for her yet. Because I'm worried about "The Trio" of 12F. I've worked out most of it (I think), it's just... I feel underlevelled for the battle (currently have Reimu hovering at Lv50; everyone else is give or take a bit). Well, I should probably look for her first since she's probably easier  :V
As long as
Flan
has been encountered and has run away twice so far, you've gone as far as you can with her. As for Ms.Gamebreaking... yes. She is. She really really is. This is why I'm not using her anymore  :V

You should be able to do the boss at that point, but it is tough. Reimu and Cirno's PAR attacks help, as does using 2 windows Calculators to make sure
Eirin and Kaguya
die at the same time so one doesn't PANICNUKE you.

With Reimu's party buff, or Minoriko's, you should be able to reduce damage to 0 fairly easily on people who don't have crappy MND. But Minoriko's buff is single-target and Reimu's is SP intensive, so it might not be terribly helpful.

Also, do not put more then 3 total debuffs on the three of them (1 each or 3 on one, doesn't matter), or a party buff will be used on them, which will majorly suck for you.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 25, 2010, 10:10:01 PM
Except for Baal avatar, which is a bald faced lie IIRC >=P

I'm not sure why you think that boss is bs? I beat Baal avatar on my first try at lvl 200, whereas the recommended range is 210-250. This is actually a good example, as his exclusive use of physical attacks / one status effect makes him easy to prep for.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 10:34:43 PM
On recommended level ranges, I found the japanese wiki to be accurate up to and including the final boss, at which point it starts to be too conservative.
The wiki in question is composed of moonrunes and one of the worst translations I've seen google translate attempt. I honestly wouldn't know where to start to look for the one I'm looking for, and the fact its a boss 3/4 through the game just makes it harder to find... Perhaps we should put this information on the english wiki sometime?

Anyhow, searching back in this topic a bit NeoGenesis suggested 85, so I'll just grind for a bit since Reimu is 79 now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 25, 2010, 10:46:44 PM
Anyhow, searching back in this topic a bit NeoGenesis suggested 85, so I'll just grind for a bit since Reimu is 79 now.
I thought I said 75~80? D: Maybe I did say that, making room for bad party set ups.

At 85 though, you certainly shouldn't have trouble with her, at least x3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 25, 2010, 10:55:59 PM
I thought I said 75~80? D: Maybe I did say that, making room for bad party set ups.
I was level 75 and you said I should consider waiting about ten levels before taking her on, which for me is probably a good idea anyways since I tend to have more trouble with bosses than most... Then again, I probably fixed that around
Mokou and Yuyuko
, since those fights were just barely casulty-free, so we'll see. Either way I could possibly test myself against
Flandre and Lily Sigil Guardian
, and if I can handle them I should be able to handle the boss in question just fine as well.

I still need to decide who to drop for
Reisen
, but aside from that I think I have my party pretty much set. At this point I'm thinking I should work my way towards eventually having an anti-boss team and anti-random mob team, as suggested earlier, since
Eirin
has really surprised me with her tanking ability and utility in boss battles.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 25, 2010, 11:14:35 PM
Your party setup is quite similar to my own. I don't use Youmu though, I also have autumn harvest lady because healing is guud, and I find she does it better than your other healer (I use her more for buffing really, but I find I just can't keep her alive on a boss. I don't know, she's cursed, she goes down easier than anybody), I used your party buffer for awhile, but dumped her for kaggy. At the time I didn't think her buff affects the ENTIRE party (derp moment), probably woudln't have done that if I had noticed, Kaggy is excellent in combination with Patchy though.

Last I don't have Yuugi, I have uhh...someone instead *thinking*, Oh! Alice...

Anyway my own party setup isn't perfect in my opinion, I'd dump a character or two in favor of a couple other ones, but I'm stubborn so too bad for me.
Yuyuko
is a character I really wanted to be good too, but when I first saw her, I figured she'd be useless because of dth attacks not being able to affect bosses, otherwise her stats were basically "Almost like patchy but not as extreme", so better pretty much everything, but lower MND and MAG, with speed that is only barely better. In otherwords, I figured she'd be a glass cannon without Patchy's OOMPH due to poorer mag, and death affects.

HOWEVER, her big spell has one of the biggest multipliers in the game (3X(magX3) - (T.MNDX0.5)) or whatever, absolutely amazing. I'm also not sure, but lowering the delay bar on her smaller attacks is probably nice too (though you lack a slower just like me, so the effect doesn't benefit as much as it could, I myself never bothered to add a slower since every relatively difficult boss always seemed immune to status debuffs for me, I just gave up bothering to try at a certain point).

I personally don't like Youmu much, she just seems like a watered down Remilia with area attacks IMO. Her single attacks don't really top Remi's for me (even her big one, Youmu's lower atk, and lower spd, make it so that it really doesn't outdamage spearing dps wise, despite the huge increase in sp cost). While she might be great for trash, I have a feeling Yuyuko would be better (if not the best in the game...
except
for Flandre probably).

Thanks for replying.  I'm thinking about switching
Youmu
with
Flandre
and
Ran
with
Yukari
once I get them.  I might switch
Yuugi
with
Kaguya
but I'm afraid that I might not have enough attacker for boss fights.  Also, who should I bring to explore 15F?  The high defense trash is giving me trouble because pretty much only Patchouli can harm it well enough.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 26, 2010, 01:36:56 AM
So, uh...party recommendations for lv25 fern sigil boss?
I beat
baal avatar
on my first try, yet this one is embarrassing me.
The biggest problem I'm having is that it's so damn fast, and I have no way of slowing it down when
Komachi, with her 117k hp, is taking 60k damage from a NORMAL NON-BUFFED ATTACK. And Cirno wouldn't last a second, I didn't even bother trying with her.
Is there any other character that can do decent damage other than Alice or
Flan
? Really, it's only Alice doing the damage, since
Flan
gets wrecked if I leave her out for more (or less at times) than one turn. The boss's high MND is spoiling all of the fun :(
Lv271 Reimu by the way, I don't think I should be having trouble with this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 01:49:17 AM
Just did the first of what I'm certain will be many grinding sessions. Defeated Youmu after a long grueling fight and reached floor 3.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 26, 2010, 02:04:34 AM
Just did the first of what I'm certain will be many grinding sessions. Defeated Youmu after a long grueling fight and reached floor 3.
Actually, with decent strategy, you don't really have to do much grinding at all until 16F. Assuming you explore each and every nook and cranny, at least... which you should do anyway, so you don't miss anything.

Of course, it definitely helps if you have too much trouble with something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 26, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Thanks for replying.  I'm thinking about switching
Youmu
with
Flandre
and
Ran
with
Yukari
once I get them.  I might switch
Yuugi
with
Kaguya
but I'm afraid that I might not have enough attacker for boss fights.  Also, who should I bring to explore 15F?  The high defense trash is giving me trouble because pretty much only Patchouli can harm it well enough.

You will probably never switch Ran with anyone since she is the only one who can buff chars in the back row. This is extremely important for glass cannons since they can't stay out too long. Yukari does make an awesome tank that can team buff and works very well with reimu. She's great for nuking when the boss is in madness mode too since she can return the team's turn. Though a lot of people praise flandre I personally don't like her since she dies so fast.  For floor 15, try using cirno and reimu to stun them while iku buffing patch and patch nuking.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 02:19:53 AM
Actually, with decent strategy, you don't really have to do much grinding at all until 16F. Assuming you explore each and every nook and cranny, at least... which you should do anyway, so you don't miss anything.

Of course, it definitely helps if you have too much trouble with something.

Of course. The fun of this game is gradually filling up the map of each floor. ;D

Question, and sorry if you answered it somewhere along the way: I know all the affinity stats are resistances, but do they also count in the power of elemental spells? I notice that elemental stats never go up in levels, so I have to know to focus skill points in those if that is the case.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 26, 2010, 02:27:33 AM
Of course. The fun of this game is gradually filling up the map of each floor. ;D

Question, and sorry if you answered it somewhere along the way: I know all the affinity stats are resistances, but do they also count in the power of elemental spells? I notice that elemental stats never go up in levels, so I have to know to focus skill points in those if that is the case.

No, the affinity stats does not affect the elemental spell's strength.  It's only resistance against enemy's matching element spell.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 26, 2010, 02:29:25 AM
Of course. The fun of this game is gradually filling up the map of each floor. ;D

Question, and sorry if you answered it somewhere along the way: I know all the affinity stats are resistances, but do they also count in the power of elemental spells? I notice that elemental stats never go up in levels, so I have to know to focus skill points in those if that is the case.
Oh, so very true; a few of the floors have a design that is simply beautiful (or at least like abstract art) after filling it all in. 13F and 16F come to mind.

And nope, they only affect defense.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 26, 2010, 02:42:15 AM
You will probably never switch Ran with anyone since she is the only one who can buff chars in the back row. This is extremely important for glass cannons since they can't stay out too long. Yukari does make an awesome tank that can team buff and works very well with reimu. She's great for nuking when the boss is in madness mode too since she can return the team's turn. Though a lot of people praise flandre I personally don't like her since she dies so fast.  For floor 15, try using cirno and reimu to stun them while iku buffing patch and patch nuking.

Okay, so I'm going to switch around between them depending on bosses.  And I'll try that strategy, although it looks like I'm going to be screwed once Patchy ran out of TP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 26, 2010, 02:44:40 AM
Okay, so I'm going to switch around between them depending on bosses.  And I'll try that strategy, although it looks like I'm going to be screwed once Patchy ran out of TP.
Yuugi's KO3S, Rumia's Dark Side of the Moon, and Minoriko's Falling Leaves of Madness should all be able to 0hko the Blackenmels. PAR works 100% on the Sorceress' I believe, so take advantage of that if they trouble you.

Well... Yuugi might have to level a bit and get some investment into attack to 0hko Blackenmels, but there is still Rumia/Minoriko/Patch.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 26, 2010, 02:50:26 AM
Yuugi's KO3S, Rumia's Dark Side of the Moon, and Minoriko's Falling Leaves of Madness should all be able to 0hko the Blackenmels. PAR works 100% on the Sorceress' I believe, so take advantage of that if they trouble you.

Well... Yuugi might have to level a bit and get some investment into attack to 0hko Blackenmels, but there is still Rumia/Minoriko/Patch.

So many characters I chose to ignore  :V.  I guess every characters are useful in their own way.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 05:35:44 AM
Man, when did it become 9:34? D: All I've done is play this game all day. I've explored every part of floor 3 that I can reach, and am looking for Alice's dolls on floor 4.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 26, 2010, 06:05:00 AM
Any tips for
Rinnosuke
?  He has a annoying mix of speed and power, mostly speed.  I cant seem to debuff him or get any ailments on him either.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 26, 2010, 06:09:52 AM
Any tips for
Rinnosuke
?  He has a annoying mix of speed and power, mostly speed.  I cant seem to debuff him or get any ailments on him either.
He's immune to everything, so don't waste your time.
He's basically a battle of attrition, you just have to keep pounding away. Try to use the weakness of each form for more damage, and always keep your characters def/mnd buffed. After an eternity and a half he'll fall :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 26, 2010, 06:10:05 AM
I'm not sure why you think that boss is bs? I beat Baal avatar on my first try at lvl 200, whereas the recommended range is 210-250. This is actually a good example, as his exclusive use of physical attacks / one status effect makes him easy to prep for.

I had many cases of both tenshi and hong getting 1shot at full health  with high defensive buffs on from that boss, even when I finally beat it at reimu 230ish...I stack defense more than offense too... I think you must have gotten really lucky with what the boss decided to cast at its last 25% or something >=P. At the time I was told that reimu 200 was the reccomended, not 200-250. I had beaten every boss prior to that one a good 10-15% below minimum reccomended level too.

Quote
Yuugi's KO3S, Rumia's Dark Side of the Moon, and Minoriko's Falling Leaves of Madness should all be able to 0hko the Blackenmels. PAR works 100% on the Sorceress' I believe, so take advantage of that if they trouble you.

Well... Yuugi might have to level a bit and get some investment into attack to 0hko Blackenmels, but there is still Rumia/Minoriko/Patch.

Don't forget kaggy, many of her spells ignore def and mnd, and unlike Rumia, they still hurt.

Quote
Any tips for
Rinnosuke
?  He has a annoying mix of speed and power, mostly speed.  I cant seem to debuff him or get any ailments on him either

I found him to be like one of the easiest bosses in the game, I guess stacking defense really works for him. Anyway just try and play it safe, keep a big master spark for his final phase (when he loses his colorful aura's and goes back to how he starts the fight). Every time he changes colors, he becomes weak to an element, try and nuke him during that.

blue, pwn him with fire
red, pwn him with cold
yellow, use nature
green, use wind
purple (like the start/end but thicker), use spirit
light blue, use mystic.

Saving the bigass master spark for the very last phase should make it so it seems no different than the beginning.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 26, 2010, 07:08:17 AM
You should be able to do the boss at that point, but it is tough. Reimu and Cirno's PAR attacks help, as does using 2 windows Calculators to make sure
Eirin and Kaguya
die at the same time so one doesn't PANICNUKE you.
The first time, they didn't do that. So I tested again. And they did. Weird. The game froze and crashed (not sure why, it could just be a random crash) after the first victory, so I did it a second time (ughh....); anyway:

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=374&u=12803292 (rather minor character spoiler; my ending team)

I was not expecting a victory by that. Seriously,
Eirin and Kaguya
were still alive, and almost ready to go. I switch to her, get a few hits in, her turn again, with both of the Bosses being ready to go (or close enough to it; see the Battle Count / Timer / whatever), So I use the Row Attack... and... yeah... I did not use a calculator, and I do not know their max HPs. I don't touch wiki's normally, as it ruins the *ahem* fun (http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fun).

Close call  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 07:49:54 AM
Joining in on the opinion that Alice is motherfucking impossible. I managed to destroy the healing fairy ONCE, after which Alice unleashed three doom spells at once and slaughtered the tattered remains of my party. D:

I can tell that I have no choice but to go grinding, which means it's time to turn in for tonight.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 26, 2010, 08:06:44 AM
Just Royal Flare her ass until well done. I found the Alice fight not-too-difficult-enough to farm for the drop.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 09:32:52 AM
Just Royal Flare her ass until well done. I found the Alice fight not-too-difficult-enough to farm for the drop.

Patchy runs out of SP too quickly for this to be the way. Through grinding (lol I said I was done), I have destroyed all the fairies and taken a lot of Alice's health, but no matter what I do, she breaks out Little Legion, which seems to be defense-piercing and does enough damage to OHKO a lot of my team unless they're at full health. >_< It's a good thing grinding in this game is pretty mindless.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 26, 2010, 09:45:27 AM
Don't forget kaggy, many of her spells ignore def and mnd, and unlike Rumia, they still hurt.

>Unlike Rumia
>Higher damage

You need to twink Rumia for offense more.

I am enjoying Dark Side of the Moon off of 5m MAG. :3

Patchy runs out of SP too quickly for this to be the way. Through grinding (lol I said I was done), I have destroyed all the fairies and taken a lot of Alice's health, but no matter what I do, she breaks out Little Legion, which seems to be defense-piercing and does enough damage to OHKO a lot of my team unless they're at full health. >_< It's a good thing grinding in this game is pretty mindless.

Twink defensive stats more.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 26, 2010, 10:21:50 AM
OH MY GOD.

My last stand. Meiling had finally bit the dust, taking the last healing spells with her. It's just Remilia and Youmu remaining, who are focusing and dealing out damage as they can. Probably one turn before Alice breaks out Little Legion and kills me, I get off one last Spear The Gungnir and win.

THAT WAS AWESOME. Alice had better be just as awesome for all the effort she took.

Also lol it's 2:21, guess I really should be hopping off to bed soon...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 26, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
Donut, that was your 1st grindwall boss, and I find her very worth using. She doesn't have Pacthy-style MAG or MND, but she has much better HP, DEF, and SPD in comparison. She also still does good damage, and I am at Floor 20.

Aternately, you can use http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Characters (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Characters) for a bit of help on characters and their good stats, ect. I personally consult the wiki every time I get a new char, in order to see whats worth poorng points into.

Side note for game length, I have over 100 Hours in the game, so if you play like I do, you'll hit 100 in due time :)

Slight Spoiler about the games Grindwalls *
The games notable grindwalls seem to be for the boss on 4F, Alice, the boss fight on 12F, the boss on 16F, the boss on 18F and finally the boss on 20F, please note, the grindwall bosses I mentioned also require more skill/strategy to defeat then the other bosses. Advance slowly, and grind, Grind, GRIND until you can beat a certain boss that troubles you.

If anyone needs help, all you have to do is ask, and I shall try to help you as much as I can :)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 26, 2010, 01:38:50 PM
Don't forget kaggy, many of her spells ignore def and mnd, and unlike Rumia, they still hurt.
Talking about 15F here  :V

>Unlike Rumia
>Higher damage

You need to twink Rumia for offense more.

I am enjoying Dark Side of the Moon off of 5m MAG. :3
Does the HP heal of Demarcation actually become fairly nice after all that twinking?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 26, 2010, 01:53:56 PM
Talking about 15F here  :V
Does the HP heal of Demarcation actually become fairly nice after all that twinking?

Demarcation has a 25% mult.

You'd have to make Roomy's MAG an insanely high level to have it be Sanae level healing.

At present, where Roomy has around 5m MAG in my file, her healing is a little bit less effective than Minoriko's healing when Minoriko was level 2000. That is to say, it's not worth using for the HP heal. Ever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 26, 2010, 08:10:20 PM
Hime, I understand that the numbers you get for every character in the game is much higher when you are level 1500+, and you spent trillions of skillpoints around. However, we're talking simple math here, assuming things are equal, characters who are better or worse in some categories will NEVER be better than another they  weren't as good as in the first place just by "twinking", assuming you used/leveled the better character an equal amount. Spending 5 billion skillpoints in rumia's magic will make her do alot of damage and healing sure, but it will never ever ever be as much as kaggy's if you spent 5 billion skillpoints in kaggy's mag.

Here is why I said Kaggy's spells actually hurt in comparison to dark side of the moon:
Rumia: MAG     47 ⑨     C, Level-Up Difficulty     86     S
Kaggy: MAG     72 (14)     S, Level-Up Difficulty     118     C

That alone shows you that despite the level up rate difference between the two, Kaggy's magic will stay higher than Rumias assuming other things are equal. Now let's look at their attack formula:
Rumia:     (MAG x 2)
Kaggy: 2.5 x (MAG x 1.25)

The only other possible way rumia's damage using DSTM will outpace Kaggy's ignore mnd spells now is that her mag levels via skillpoints were significantly cheaper, which they are not, they are more expensive, approximately 10% more expensive.

Now I don't like arguing with people, or trying to prove someone is right just for the sake of it. But this is not the first, second, or even 3rd time I've seen you posh someone trying to offer advice with a snide remark like "Well *MY* ___ does better because *I* twink more, duh!". I mean, it doesn't help anybody to write something like that, not to mention it misleads someone into thinking that someone actually benefits from "Twinking" more than another, which in your case, is often the exact opposite.

 You might as well tell people that Patchy does good melee damageusing the attack option because yours is level 9999, and skilllevel 9999 in attack, with 3 gurthang's equipped.

Now in the case of Rumia/Kaggy. I didn't realize that we were talking about a point in the game before Kaggy even becomes available, so the point is moot really, but chances are someone might be misled into thinking Rumia is the better character for mnd/def ignoring attacks, which simply is not true. Not only does Kaggy have 3, all of which have better formulas, but they all also have different elements, allowing you to exploit an elemental weakness or avoid a strength better.

Rumia's highlights over Kaggy is not dark side of the moon, or her magic. It's her excellent formula for moonlight ray, along with Demarcations heal and utility.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 26, 2010, 08:20:38 PM
For people who want the delicious Level-Up Cursor Memory, here is a link to the 2.06 patch.

http://www.geocities.jp/aaa_3peso/thLabyrinth/thLabyrinth_ver2.06.zip

Rename the thLaby.exe in this folder to thLaby2.06.exe or something, and copy all this into your game folder, minus the save file.

Whenever you need to level up a single character a ton, start 2.06 so you don't have to scroll down to the correct Level-Up bonus each time, saving a HUUUUGE amount of time for you since now you just spam Z a bunch.

I recommend against actually using 2.06 for casual play however, because of bugs and glitches. The only significant changes anyway are this, Nitori's Megawatt is much stronger, and there is a New Game+ function (Which you can probably activate in 2.06 and then play in 2.04)
That link doesn't work anymore, and I'm not entirely sure what the page says.
But 2.05 does...for now.

Also,
Specific hints:
Shikieiki (14 million hp): IMO easier than the Yuka fight. Shikieiki uses a 80k single target nuke which ignores defense every third turn, exclusively on the 1st character slot. Thus you should bring out Komachi and Eirin. With the exception of this gimmick the fight is straightforward, so just nuke her into the ground. Be sure to kill her after she casts Focus; unlike Yuka she will not have a lot of hp, so Master Spark or comparable attacks will suffice.

Are you sure
Shiki
only uses focus when she's low on hp? 'Cause I fought her twice last night, and right after she focused I hit her with a magic spark, return inanimateness, and laevatein (which did somewhere between 2.5 and 3m damage) and she still didn't fall, proceeding to hit me with whatever that attack is called that wiped my entire party.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 26, 2010, 09:47:28 PM
That link doesn't work anymore, and I'm not entirely sure what the page says.
But 2.05 does...for now.

Also,
Are you sure
Shiki
only uses focus when she's low on hp? 'Cause I fought her twice last night, and right after she focused I hit her with a magic spark, return inanimateness, and laevatein (which did somewhere between 2.5 and 3m damage) and she still didn't fall, proceeding to hit me with whatever that attack is called that wiped my entire party.

Pretty sure she casts it when she's at a certain % or less. The % being relatively low (like 20% or something).

I had the same problem as you though, where the first time meeting her, I was not able to powernuke her fast enough after that focus. I think it's because I focus on defense more than offense, so I'm at a weaker position than most people at dps races.

Anyway, make sure you don't just use your biggest nukes at that phase. I mean, don't master spark immediately after she focuses, or levatien, or whatever. Use fast low-delay nukes, then your big monster ones at the last instant. You probably already figured such, but who knows.

I like to have marisa sitting at 100% mag (it's always 97% actually, but close enough) waiting for such a phase, I also try to have another high dpser sitting at high buffs for the end (though I use them more than marisa. I only swap them out mid way or so), Normally remilia. Remilia can really dish out some badass dps when buffed. Her spear might not hit as hard as alot of characters, but unlike your other big nukers, she can probably spear 3 or 4 times after that focus (make sure she has speed buffs too, or whoever it is you plan to use), while otherbig nukers typically can only afford 1 or 2.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 26, 2010, 10:12:30 PM
Are you sure
Shiki
only uses focus when she's low on hp? 'Cause I fought her twice last night, and right after she focused I hit her with a magic spark, return inanimateness, and laevatein (which did somewhere between 2.5 and 3m damage) and she still didn't fall, proceeding to hit me with whatever that attack is called that wiped my entire party.

That's very disturbing... in my fight, Starbow Break's 500k damage one-shotted the boss after she used Focus, much to my surprise. Maybe I'll replay the fight to see if this is expected behavior.

For winning dps races, I like to use the 16F character to basically double my burst damage output.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 26, 2010, 10:14:35 PM
advice

I'm getting ready to try while not paying attention in art history.
The funny thing was, I killed
Yuka
by doing the exact same thing (ms, alice, laevatein), and I was going off the statement that
Shiki
had less hp.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 26, 2010, 10:37:49 PM
I'm getting ready to try while not paying attention in art history.
The funny thing was, I killed
Yuka
by doing the exact same thing (ms, alice, laevatein), and I was going off the statement that
Shiki
had less hp.

Well the thing is neither boss instantly casts focus at that certain amount of HP. They only decide they'll focus on their NEXT turn after reaching the said threshold (well, I'm assuming here, I think it's a pretty safe assumption though), so maybe Yuka decided to cast some move with huge delay like 1hp before her focus threshold, virtually more than doubling the time you got to take her out during that phase, along with making it so that she actually focused at possibly 5% instead of 15% or whatever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 26, 2010, 10:56:23 PM
Okay, I just tried
Shiki
again, and I did at least 4m after she focused, and she still steamrolled me >:(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 27, 2010, 12:58:32 AM
...
I just beat her.
She didn't even use focus, and I lost Marisa before she could spark and kaguya got all of two hits in.
Wtf.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 27, 2010, 12:59:15 AM
According to the JP Wiki, it's completely random when she chooses to focus -> rape. She can do it as her first move, or never at all. It's just a low percentage chance in general of doing it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Chen on January 27, 2010, 02:46:05 AM
I still can't beat Alice.
I had all her dolls down...
Then she killed me.  :-X
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 27, 2010, 02:54:41 AM
I still can't beat Alice.
I had all her dolls down...
Then she killed me.  :-X

It's cheap, but in hindsight a boss wouldn't be fun if there was a 100% way to beat them. Part of the reason I like Touhou as a whole.

Also, it's odd. I want to continue to the fifth floor, I tested out Alice and saw that she's a mix between Marisa and Patchouli, buffed up Alice via skill points, but...I'm suddenly so tired. I wonder why, it can't be because of how late I went to bed last night. :V Also I unequipped everyone's items so I can more wisely allocate them, but that's gonna take a while. :x
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 27, 2010, 03:04:34 AM
Also, it's odd. I want to continue to the fifth floor, I tested out Alice and saw that she's a mix between Marisa and Patchouli, buffed up Alice via skill points, but...I'm suddenly so tired. I wonder why, it can't be because of how late I went to bed last night. :V Also I unequipped everyone's items so I can more wisely allocate them, but that's gonna take a while. :x
Alice is like... a mix of several kinds of attacker. She is an attacker, yet she has great MND and still pretty good DEF and okay HP, giving her decent survival capability.

All her skills cause debuffs, two have a element (different ones!), one does mass damage to weak-MND stuff, and she has both Magical AND Physical skills that BOTH use only MAG (Which is like AWESOME.).

Everything other then Return Inanimateness seems to do kinda bad damage to bosses around reaching the Final Boss though, considering she is only really good for attacking... I'm not sure if I just wasn't giving her enough SKP and equips for MAG, though. She is beyond awesome until then though, I assure you... and I was probably just messing up somehow when I thought she was getting bad.

Anyway, went through a little more of 16F today, went back and got 12F last optional. Damn, its like Patch with only slightly better stats in everything other then MAG/MND... still gets 0hkoed by basically anything physical, yet doesn't have the super magical defenses. Those skills just look awesome though... well, no matter what I'm using her until Final Boss at a minimum, for the sake of trying all the characters I didn't use last time (save Iku and the 18F)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 27, 2010, 03:40:45 AM
Is it just me, or does the boss music tend to start lighthearted (Alice/Youmu) and gradually get more epic as the game goes on?

I haven't beat 16F yet, but man her theme is awesome. Its getting me more and more pumped to keep going and reach the next batch of battles.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 27, 2010, 06:18:01 AM
Recommended Level check for
Mokou
,
Yuyuko
and the various other Bosses of 14F. I feel that Reimu Lv57 isn't going to cut it  :V

Well, with enough thinking I'm sure that the [non-spoiler] Bosses can be taken out. Not sure about the ones in the spoilers because they hurt. A lot.

Oh, and 13F was wonderful. I got everything. I'm fairly sure of this because the map looks
perfectly symmetrical and heavily resembles a square / rectangle
.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 27, 2010, 08:43:27 AM
Rumia's highlights over Kaggy is not dark side of the moon, or her magic. It's her excellent formula for moonlight ray, along with Demarcations heal and utility.

I was not suggesting that Rumia was better. Also, Demarcation's Stat Down/PAR healing is the only reason why you would ever use it. The HP heal is just icing on the cake, because it is multi-target healing.

I was trying to say that Rumia is not by any means a useless character to be using later on. Any character can find their own use later on. And really, I don't find much use in using Kaguya offensively. I almost exclusively use her for her buff.

Quote
Now I don't like arguing with people, or trying to prove someone is right just for the sake of it. But this is not the first, second, or even 3rd time I've seen you posh someone trying to offer advice with a snide remark like "Well *MY* ___ does better because *I* twink more, duh!". I mean, it doesn't help anybody to write something like that, not to mention it misleads someone into thinking that someone actually benefits from "Twinking" more than another, which in your case, is often the exact opposite.

Get off your fucking self-righteous high horse and lay off. I wasn't trying to be snide when I said that, nor did I mean any harm from it. If it elicited such a virulent response from you, then it's not my fault you took it the wrong way. This isn't the only time you've misunderstood my posts for whatever reason, and it's starting to irk me. Also:

>benefitting from twinking
>doesn't actually work

Wait, what? If you don't want to twink, don't. Twinking is intentional tweaking of stats at the expense of others. In this game, you almost always don't compromise the skill point growth of another stat because you can't. The skill point gains in the 30F are almost always enough to grant you one or two levels after one round of killing the randoms there. So it's not even twinking in the entire sense of the word, but rather, power-grinding. This also renders your point here:

Quote
The only other possible way rumia's damage using DSTM will outpace Kaggy's ignore mnd spells now is that her mag levels via skillpoints were significantly cheaper, which they are not, they are more expensive, approximately 10% more expensive.

completely moot, because everyone's skill point costs are going to be ridiculously high when you're dealing with levels of such a grand scale. It would make a much bigger difference to say that when you're dealing with normal game levels, but since we're arguing from completely different perspectives here - given I'm trying to beat the F30 Middle Boss 100 times, I am intentionally overclocking the capabilities of everyone I want to use. It's no use to be saying something like that.

I'm stopping here. If you're still pissed off at me for no reason, take it to PM.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 27, 2010, 09:27:47 AM
I'm stopping here. If you're still pissed off at me for no reason, take it to PM.

*slowly puts bucket of popcorn down disappointedly*
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 27, 2010, 08:22:41 PM
Who said I was angry? I'm not.

Anyway, I never said twinking doesn't actually work. Character vs character comparisons are generally made assuming all things are equal, such as how much you have decided to twink one. I agree that kaggy's use during bosses is almost used exclusively for buffs (mostly for the insta-gauge too), but we weren't discussing each of the character's overall use so much as their mnd/def ignoring attacks for handling those baddies who take 0 from virtually everything.

Someone made a list of characters that is good at that, kaguya was not on the list, so I added that she is infact, better than Rumia at that single subject (mnd ignoring attacks), you said Rumia should be twinked more. Then I tried to argue that twinking or not, assuming all things are equal, Rumia is inferior to Kaguya at def/mnd ignoring spells, my mention at skillpoint costs, leveling ratios, etc, is merely a mathematical "proof" of sorts.

Speaking of perspectives, it is not a matter of mine opposed to yours. I was attempting to discuss RemiliaXYuyuko's who was having trouble with floor 15 trash (at that moment I forgot Kaguya was unavailable at that point in the game).

edit:
Btw anybody who has played with the newer patches, did they fix the stage music so that it continues where it left off after battle? Some of them are quite good but are really never heard because you start a fight before you're even a quarter of the way thru the track.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 27, 2010, 10:10:56 PM
Ok what the heck, Plus Disk bosses are ripping me, and I could use some help.
1st things 1st, who will I be able to likly beat 1st out of Baal Avatar, that 22F Sigil Guardian, Yuka or Utsuho? My Reimu is level 235 right now. 22F Sigil Guardian loves Destroy Magic, Utsuso KOs me within like 1-3 turns, Baal Avatar is using Triple Sword on my squishies who are in slot 3 or 4, Reimu counts as a squishy in this as well. Yuka starts spamming moves like Gensokyo's Reflowering until I die, which I do shortly after.

I am having to grind more here then in a Nippon Ichi game(read as Disgaea)!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 27, 2010, 10:51:23 PM
Ok what the heck, Plus Disk bosses are ripping me, and I could use some help.
1st things 1st, who will I be able to likly beat 1st out of Baal Avatar, that 22F Sigil Guardian, Yuka or Utsuho? My Reimu is level 235 right now. 22F Sigil Guardian loves Destroy Magic, Utsuso KOs me within like 1-3 turns, Baal Avatar is using Triple Sword on my squishies who are in slot 3 or 4, Reimu counts as a squishy in this as well. Yuka starts spamming moves like Gensokyo's Reflowering until I die, which I do shortly after.

I am having to grind more here then in a Nippon Ichi game(read as Disgaea)!

22F boss is IMO easiest, but have you gotten around to boss rush 2.0 or final boss 2.0? They're probably your most manageable boss fights at this point.

I would leave 21F joinable for last. She's definitely the most difficult of the plus-disk joinables to get.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 27, 2010, 11:54:10 PM
-Busy with things-
Any tips for
Orin?  She's insanely fast with Cat Walk spam and 9 knights are getting me low SP.  Do I grind more (lvls roughly 65-68) or is there a recommended strategy against the 9 knights and Orin
?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 12:09:38 AM
I get left in the dust by Final Boss V.2, so I'd like to avoid it for now >.> 22F Boss it is I guess.

Does anyone know some of the notable stats on these bosses? HP being the big 1 I would like to know...

For that fight RemiliaxYuyuko,
I would actually reccomend skipping her for now then come back in a bit if she seems to difficult. The boss lacks any notable damage output, it's all weaker-but-numerous attacks. Her attacks might seem to have bite right now, but they start looking rather weak rather quickly, this is especially true if you can get DEF/MND buffs in place and keep them in place.

For getting past the knights before her, I would actually make it so you can dish out High Dmg while having High Survivability with alternate chars for the knights and the main party for her. For me, I normally Fight with Meiling-Remi-Reimu-Marisa/Patchy, but when dealing with the knights I switched to a different 4 who could last the 7 someodd fights.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on January 28, 2010, 12:13:07 AM
I get left in the dust by Final Boss V.2, so I'd like to avoid it for now >.> 22F Boss it is I guess.

Does anyone know some of the notable stats on these bosses? HP being the big 1 I would like to know...

For that fight RemiliaxYuyuko,
I would actually reccomend skipping her for now then come back in a bit if she seems to difficult. The boss lacks any notable damage output, it's all weaker-but-numerous attacks. Her attacks might seem to have bite right now, but they start looking rather weak rather quickly, this is especially true if you can get DEF/MND buffs in place and keep them in place.

For getting past the knights before her, I would actually make it so you can dish out High Dmg while having High Survivability with alternate chars for the knights and the main party for her. For me, I normally Fight with Meiling-Remi-Reimu-Marisa/Patchy, but when dealing with the knights I switched to a different 4 who could last the 7 someodd fights.

Thank you Flandre's Revenge.  I guess I'll come back to her after I fully explored the 15F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LiteYear on January 28, 2010, 12:47:10 AM
I still can't beat Alice.
I had all her dolls down...
Then she killed me.  :-X

I've found Alice and her dolls are highly susceptible to Poison.  It's not a huge advantage, but it might be enough to tip the battle.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 28, 2010, 01:50:54 AM
22F boss is IMO easiest, but have you gotten around to boss rush 2.0 or final boss 2.0? They're probably your most manageable boss fights at this point.

I would leave 21F joinable for last. She's definitely the most difficult of the plus-disk joinables to get.

I agree with this completely. Something you should know about 21F joinable, is that she is deceptively harder than you think. I mean, when I first unlocked 21F joinable, I tried fighting her, and she actually seemed easier than the baal avatar at the time, because she often opens up with weak spells like fireball and such. However I reached a point where she casted a new nuke which pawnted me. After leveling up some more, I tried again, then I found out that the same nuke also buffs her damage, so, I got ownt again later on (especially since she unlocks another new powerful nuke).

Then just when you think you're powerful enough to handle all that, she gets ANOTHER big nuke which completely ignores your defense and omgwtfcreams your entire party for like 60k (and no, it's not a "kill me before I cast this dps race" type spell, it's just casted randomly fairly regularly). so yeah, she's a bish.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 03:06:08 AM
I agree with this completely. Something you should know about 21F joinable, is that she is deceptively harder than you think. I mean, when I first unlocked 21F joinable, I tried fighting her, and she actually seemed easier than the baal avatar at the time, because she often opens up with weak spells like fireball and such. However I reached a point where she casted a new nuke which pawnted me. After leveling up some more, I tried again, then I found out that the same nuke also buffs her damage, so, I got ownt again later on (especially since she unlocks another new powerful nuke).

Then just when you think you're powerful enough to handle all that, she gets ANOTHER big nuke which completely ignores your defense and omgwtfcreams your entire party for like 60k (and no, it's not a "kill me before I cast this dps race" type spell, it's just casted randomly fairly regularly). so yeah, she's a bish.

Giga Flare is my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE SPELL!
The boss knows this as well, and always tries to be nice by giving me two in a row.
How generous of her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 03:16:55 AM
Floor 5 reeks of filler. :| I've explored nearly 3/4 of it and the only thing I've found is a sake spring in an out of the way location.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 28, 2010, 03:29:19 AM
Floor 5 reeks of filler. :| I've explored nearly 3/4 of it and the only thing I've found is a sake spring in an out of the way location.
You get the last Notebook scrap for Aya, there are three different stairways to 6F(all important), and two sake springs (one is right before optional character boss after 400 battles, other is right before Sigil boss)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 03:38:17 AM
You get the last Notebook scrap for Aya, there are three different stairways to 6F(all important), and two sake springs (one is right before optional character boss after 400 battles, other is right before Sigil boss)

Yeah, speaking of Aya? I don't really like her, so I wasn't planning on using her, but my god is she useless. She can buff one person's speed (which Sakuya can do for the whole team), and...that's about it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 03:56:06 AM
Yeah, speaking of Aya? I don't really like her, so I wasn't planning on using her, but my god is she useless. She can buff one person's speed (which Sakuya can do for the whole team), and...that's about it.

I prefer Chen, but then again I don't use either of them anymore...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 28, 2010, 03:58:58 AM
Yeah, speaking of Aya? I don't really like her, so I wasn't planning on using her, but my god is she useless. She can buff one person's speed (which Sakuya can do for the whole team), and...that's about it.

Aya is better at it then Sakuya if you are going for full team buffs. Hers add 50 speed and only cost 25 gauge while Sakuya gives 40 speed and 100 gauge. Unless you're sending Sakuya in, using it once and sending her out, Aya will produce better results. She's also innately faster and if paired with certain characters, has the highest dps in the game against mid to low def enemies.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 28, 2010, 04:00:38 AM
Yeah, speaking of Aya? I don't really like her, so I wasn't planning on using her, but my god is she useless. She can buff one person's speed (which Sakuya can do for the whole team), and...that's about it.

I found her to be quite good actually. She doesn't dish out as much damage as some of the glass cannons, but she is definately above average on the dps scale, in additon beefiest early game characters who are capable of an attack all spell without blowing all their sp in 1 turn.

You're at the point where you can't simply try out a character to see how good they are anymore though in terms of stats and damage output though. The skillpoints invested in your other characters, along with equipment heavily skews those unless you blow a bunch on the new character. You're best off checking the wiki for the real stats IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 04:56:20 AM
Yay, I finally got to floor 30, and then hahaha, oh wow.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 05:04:44 AM
Quote
22F boss is IMO easiest

I honestly hate the 22F boss... it LOVES to use Destroy Magic to NO end, like every 3-4 turns.
Which Sigil Guardian must I kill to gain entry to 26F? Baal Avatar(21F Sigil) or Super-Freaky-Alien(22F Sigil). Also where is the last of the 4 Sigil guardian? Baal Avatar on 21F, Alien-thingie on 22F and the Flame Tyrant on 24F, but I KNOW there is 1 more Guardian somewhere.

Oh yeah Tsumachi... xD Yeah... assuming you mean the trash/randoms on 30F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 05:05:59 AM
The wiki doesn't have enough information. :( I want to know how much health Yugi has. I'm pretty sure I was close to beating her, but in this game you could be one hit away from victory and not know it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 05:06:12 AM
I honestly hate the 22F boss... it LOVES to use Destroy Magic to NO end, like every 3-4 turns.
Which Sigil Guardian must I kill to gain entry to 26F? Baal Avatar(21F Sigil) or Super-Freaky-Alien(22F Sigil). Also where is the last of the 4 Sigil guardian? Baal Avatar on 21F, Alien-thingie on 22F and the Flame Tyrant on 24F, but I KNOW there is 1 more Guardian somewhere.

Oh yeah Tsumachi... xD Yeah... assuming you mean the trash/randoms on 30F.

Fern guardian is on 26F, in the area unlocked after Baal avatar is defeated I believe.

The wiki doesn't have enough information. :( I want to know how much health Yugi has. I'm pretty sure I was close to beating her, but in this game you could be one hit away from victory and not know it.

She has 60k hp. Did you get her to the point where she starts OHKOing you with knockout in three steps?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 05:19:42 AM
Yep. If Patchy's SP recovery weren't so terrible I may have been able to outlast her. Also how did you know that? Is there an information resource other than the wiki?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 05:29:18 AM
Yep. If Patchy's SP recovery weren't so terrible I may have been able to outlast her. Also how did you know that? Is there an information resource other than the wiki?
I used Google Translate the Japanese Wiki.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 28, 2010, 05:54:05 AM
Then just when you think you're powerful enough to handle all that, she gets ANOTHER big nuke which completely ignores your defense and omgwtfcreams your entire party for like 60k (and no, it's not a "kill me before I cast this dps race" type spell, it's just casted randomly fairly regularly). so yeah, she's a bish.

Her behavior isn't completely random. She uses this uber attack as soon as she gets down to 4 million hp, so it's possible if you're counting to kill her before then. The problem is, she's so damn fast that it proved impossible for me to set up that sort of damage without getting really lucky. I ended up using 7F and 15F to ride it out.

Yes, that's right. I used Flandre to tank Giga Flare. Her high hp comes in handy sometimes!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 06:58:14 AM
donut, Yuugi seems(key word, seems) to ONLY target whoever is on the far Left/furthest left so your biggest tanks should of course, be placed on the left. Also due to her sheer power, you just need to KO her asap, Wriggle helps I think, with her Comet on Earth. Also, how much SP do Marisa and Patchy have on your file?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 07:12:10 AM
Just beat Yuugi. ;D I saw that she only targeted those people, but I had to rely on her not using any of her OHKO moves on them to stall her out.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 28, 2010, 08:23:59 AM
71/100

Lv7220~ish.

This is taking way shorter than it should, now. idgi.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 28, 2010, 08:53:35 AM
71/100

Lv7220~ish.

This is taking way shorter than it should, now. idgi.

When you finish, put your save file on megaupload. I'd LOVE to watch numbers incapable of fitting on the screen show up after an attack, but not willing to sped 1000 hours working for it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 28, 2010, 08:58:34 AM
When you finish, put your save file on megaupload. I'd LOVE to watch numbers incapable of fitting on the screen show up after an attack, but not willing to sped 1000 hours working for it.

If you want to see it for yourself, just hack it in. It's really not that hard just to edit the address values, as the only things you really need to change are level values, multipliers, and that's it. The save files work with your levels, and then generate everything else on the fly. Or you can ask around for CE stuff to increase EXP by a shitton and just do it from there.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on January 28, 2010, 10:00:32 AM
Question about the 12F fight, since I'm writing the wiki guide on it.
Does Kaguya only use Buddha's Stone Bowl if you debuff her?  Judging by the rest of the topic the answer is yes but I don't have a save file at the battle so I can't test again.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 28, 2010, 10:24:54 AM
Question about the 12F fight, since I'm writing the wiki guide on it.
Does Kaguya only use Buddha's Stone Bowl if you debuff her?  Judging by the rest of the topic the answer is yes but I don't have a save file at the battle so I can't test again.

3 or more debuffs on all of them total. So SPD Down + ATK Down on one won't trigger, SPD Down on two different ones won't trigger, but SPD Down on all three will.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 28, 2010, 01:13:50 PM
If you want to see it for yourself, just hack it in. It's really not that hard just to edit the address values, as the only things you really need to change are level values, multipliers, and that's it. The save files work with your levels, and then generate everything else on the fly. Or you can ask around for CE stuff to increase EXP by a shitton and just do it from there.


...I would so love to hack this game right about now, even if I only change the amount of skill points I currently have/will get from battle. x___x
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 03:12:13 PM
You know what I like about Yugi? The part where she can deal nearly 1000 damage with the attack function. ;D Horrible magic defense though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 28, 2010, 03:14:27 PM
You know what I like about Yugi? The part where she can deal nearly 1000 damage with the attack function. ;D Horrible magic defense though.

That's pretty much what Yuugi is. A hard-hitting physical tank who gets flagellated badly by magic.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 28, 2010, 06:17:16 PM

...I would so love to hack this game right about now, even if I only change the amount of skill points I currently have/will get from battle. x___x

Which addresses do you need? I've got current skill points pool, exp gain, skill points gain, all the items and encounter rate. You can fiddle with precise stats on a character, their affinities and resists.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 07:15:20 PM
Quote
Which addresses do you need? I've got current skill points pool, exp gain, skill points gain, all the items and encounter rate. You can fiddle with precise stats on a character, their affinities and resists.

I would like to know about these ;D I would only want it to get past this massive grind wall though...

Sikieiki... She is wtfomghax powerful...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 28, 2010, 07:22:44 PM
I would like to know about these ;D I would only want it to get past this massive grind wall though...

SKP pool 00121F98
SKP gain 0011CBA8
Exp gain 0011CBA4
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 07:58:46 PM
I have just learned that Hibachi is an optional boss in this game.

WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED? >:( Hell, that almost makes me want to play the add-on once I beat the main game...almost.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 28, 2010, 08:06:33 PM
Speaking of which, killing the floor 30 final boss is really, really disappointing. I hacked F15 girl's stats to seven digits of 9 and basically 2-shotted him. We get five bubbles or so of dialogue after that, tl;dr, says "Whoa, he was strong. Too bad he'll keep coming back to get whooped by us!"

My personal recomendation is that floor 20 is your end game. This game is absolutely incredible up to then. Final Boss ver.2 should be your super boss, since she's very tough as is. Anything harder is just a grind wall that puts floor 16 and 18 to shame, not to mention 12. And when you finally get past that grind wall, there isn't even any reward. No plot twists, no closure, nothing. Just more and more stuff to spend time on.

With that out of the way, I'm starting a second playthrough using characters I neglected the first time around. ;D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 28, 2010, 09:01:24 PM
WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED? >:(
Because you're supposed to find out on your own, obviously.

:baitydwi:

What exactly should I be getting around to doing when making it to 14/15F? I know that
Mokou is harassing Kaguya on 12F; tried and nearly made it
(OM NOM NOM NOM NOM),
Yuyuko is sitting around, with Orin to come after defeating Yuyuko (but I haven't tried again since the first meeting, and dying on the first turn  :V)
,
2 Sigil Guardians are around 14F; one was pulverized into the ground quite easily (as I stated before), the other one was healing waaaay too fast (and a lot per turn) for me to kill
, and
Flan(maybe?)
on 15F (didn't want to risk touching the event).

I'm aware that the
2 Sigil Guardians
play a role on 15F.

Oh, and Reimu Lv63 now. I think I should take another shot at
Yuyuko
. Think.

<grinding for -floor->
12
Really?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 09:44:02 PM
Pesco, Where would I input those? I am neigh on useless for this sort of stuff >_>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on January 28, 2010, 10:44:38 PM
Hey, I had to grind for floor 12's boss too  :V

What exactly should I be getting around to doing when making it to 14/15F? I know that
Mokou is harassing Kaguya on 12F; tried and nearly made it
(OM NOM NOM NOM NOM),
Yuyuko is sitting around, with Orin to come after defeating Yuyuko (but I haven't tried again since the first meeting, and dying on the first turn  :V)
,
2 Sigil Guardians are around 14F; one was pulverized into the ground quite easily (as I stated before), the other one was healing waaaay too fast (and a lot per turn) for me to kill
, and
Flan(maybe?)
on 15F (didn't want to risk touching the event).

I'm aware that the
2 Sigil Guardians
play a role on 15F.

Oh, and Reimu Lv63 now. I think I should take another shot at
Yuyuko
. Think.

Floor 15 is basically a long, winding maze with a couple sigils that lead to treasure or the rest of the sigil guards.  Only one of the 14F sigil bosses is needed to progress but I don't know offhand which one it is.  There's a sizable amount of exploration you can do without beating either, though.

You should have a good chance of beating
Yuyuko
, but I wouldn't go for
Mokou
yet.

Quote
3 or more debuffs on all of them total. So SPD Down + ATK Down on one won't trigger, SPD Down on two different ones won't trigger, but SPD Down on all three will.

Thanks, that helps a lot.
Quote
Where would I input those? I am neigh on useless for this sort of stuff >_>

Once Cheat Engine is installed
- Click the computer shaped button in the upper left, and select thlabyrinth.exe from the list of programs
- Click the button on the right labelled "add address manually"
- Paste the address (the ones you'll probably want to use are EXP gain and either SP gain, the current values on both should be 0), and name it so you know what it is
- Get into a random battle, win it, get to the EXP screen but don't press Z to add your exp/skill points yet
- The skill point gain and experience gain fields should change to reflect the exp/sp you got from the current battle
- Double click the numbers in CheatEngine, change them to whatever you like, then go back to the game and press Z to get your boosted exp/sp
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 28, 2010, 10:48:24 PM
Quote
Cheat Engine

Ok... I am confused, where do I get that >_>... actually, so we don't clutter the topic/get on a mods bad side, just PM me the details.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 28, 2010, 11:22:09 PM
You should have a good chance of beating
Yuyuko
, but I wouldn't go for
Mokou
yet.
I think you have it reversed... I beat the latter far before I beat the former. You just have to know her signal and be able to prep to survive the big attack, then shoot her down with Marisa's Spark and any other heavy-hitting attack you have available to you now that her gauge is empty.

Former is pretty tough until you have a decent amount of MDef and anti-DTH status on your team, and even then if you're not training a good amount of physical fighters you could be in trouble (as Patchy and Marisa are the only magic powerhouses who can reliably break her obscene Mdef).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 28, 2010, 11:29:57 PM
The wiki doesn't have enough information. :( I want to know how much health Yugi has. I'm pretty sure I was close to beating her, but in this game you could be one hit away from victory and not know it.
I wouldn't fight her until exploring at least most of 6F, which also means discovering all 3 of the stairs to said floor. She only targets one character at once, and almost always the leftmost slot; throwing Meiling there and having Minoriko buff her up is very helpful, since Meiling shouldn't die in that case until Yuugi starts spamming KO3S.

And the wiki is mostly just useful for 13F and recruited character information; every single character except the very last one in Plus-Disk has been filled in completely.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 28, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
Now that I'm almost strong enough to beat the last boss, I realized I won't have anything to do after finishing it :(
What is New Game+?

And what's the recommended level for the last boss?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 28, 2010, 11:52:19 PM
I wouldn't fight her until exploring at least most of 6F, which also means discovering all 3 of the stairs to said floor. She only targets one character at once, and almost always the leftmost slot; throwing Meiling there and having Minoriko buff her up is very helpful, since Meiling shouldn't die in that case until Yuugi starts spamming KO3S.

And the wiki is mostly just useful for 13F and recruited character information; every single character except the very last one in Plus-Disk has been filled in completely.

I already beat her. :P

Also, teleporter puzzles... D:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 28, 2010, 11:55:24 PM
asdfk;lasdgha I was a page behind

I spent all of today fixing my computer (And the sound STILL DOESN'T WORK GRAAAAAH, and thLaby isn't using the pretty font anymore wtf.) and babysitting 4 y.o. twins at the same time so I'm out of it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 29, 2010, 12:07:44 AM
Also, teleporter puzzles... D:
:dealwithit:

You should have a good chance of beating
Yuyuko
, but I wouldn't go for
Mokou
yet.
I think you have it reversed... I beat the latter far before I beat the former.
Curse you conflicting opinions  >:|
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 29, 2010, 12:17:10 AM
:dealwithit:

Curse you conflicting opinions  >:|
IMO, 12F one is easier. Just keep a 97~100% MAG buffed Marisa in the back row, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to also have some SPD buff... once the boss uses Resurrection, if you can't get a Master Spark off before her next turn, you basically lose.

Well, Meiling actually can survive that if she must, but you really need a Master Spark that does at least 80k damage or its nearly impossible to win.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 29, 2010, 01:28:55 AM
So I have since discovered that the skillpoint cost to increase each characters stats seems completely arbitrary, and cannot be derived from their base stats or their stat growth. For example, cirno, despite being slower than chen, remi, marisa, etc. Pays less skillpoints to raise her speed level than the faster characters. This is not a weird exception, I have seen numerous wonky examples. for example, 3 of the plus disk characters have the exact same base stat and growth for mag, (or was it atk?), two of them pay the same cost for skillpoints to increase that stat, another character seems to have to pay roughly 10% more for seemingly no reason however.

Has anybody found some kinda info page regarding how skillpoint costs are calculated or whatever? If not, don't worry about it, it'll just be nice to know if someone found one already though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 29, 2010, 02:18:59 AM
IMO, 12F one is easier. Just keep a 97~100% MAG buffed Marisa in the back row, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to also have some SPD buff... once the boss uses Resurrection, if you can't get a Master Spark off before her next turn, you basically lose.

Well, Meiling actually can survive that if she must, but you really need a Master Spark that does at least 80k damage or its nearly impossible to win.
It might be easier to prep Meiling (and maybe another tank) to survive, because after Resurrection she gets half her gauge back, while after she uses her big move it empties entirely, giving more time to nuke her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 29, 2010, 03:04:18 AM
So I just went through the utter stupidity that is floor 7, tripped literally every teleporter on the map outside of the 12 teleporter guessing game on the left (I somehow guessed it my second try), get to the boss, and...WTF he's ridiculous. Is there some way to keep him from killing everyone so quickly? I've managed to keep alive for a time by debuffing his magic with Alice's Seeker Wire before she gets killed and constantly using Colorful Rain with Meiling to keep her alive, but he always outlasts me. How much health does he have anyway?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 29, 2010, 03:07:04 AM
So I just went through the utter stupidity that is floor 7, tripped literally every teleporter on the map outside of the 12 teleporter guessing game on the left (I somehow guessed it my second try), get to the boss, and...WTF he's ridiculous. Is there some way to keep him from killing everyone so quickly? I've managed to keep alive for a time by debuffing his magic with Alice's Seeker Wire before she gets killed and constantly using Colorful Rain with Meiling to keep her alive, but he always outlasts me. How much health does he have anyway?
The dangerous part is the Flowing Hellfire done about very 3 moves. Try not to let important damage dealers still be out when it is preformed, and make sure your tanks have the HP to live through the next one. All other attacks should be pretty minor.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 29, 2010, 03:23:10 AM
The problem is that by the time I've healed tank girl/Meiling and switched my damage dealers back out, the next Flowing Hellfire is already on its way. The only way to make this easier is for Cirno to debuff his speed, but she gets one shotted by Flowing Hellfire due to her poor fire resistance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 29, 2010, 03:27:22 AM
Does anyone know what the formula for SP recovery is? sp recover % x2 apparently
I'm wrecking with
Shiki
since I overbuffed her speed to compensate for her ridiculous spell delays, and equipped her with equipment that gives her 76% recovery...but the regen is still not so good :(

Also, what's the recommended level for the final boss?
I'd like to beat it regularly before I go wild with CE.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 29, 2010, 03:34:56 AM
The problem is that by the time I've healed tank girl/Meiling and switched my damage dealers back out, the next Flowing Hellfire is already on its way. The only way to make this easier is for Cirno to debuff his speed, but she gets one shotted by Flowing Hellfire due to her poor fire resistance.
The moment after a Flowing Hellfire is done, you don't have much to worry about; switch in Minoriko or Reimu and a big damage dealer (hay Patchy) instantly. If your second spot is taken with Remi, she is a good source of passive damage with her spears, as long as she doesn't need to focus or switch someone out. Increasing your tanks FIR resistance with equips is helpful, if doing so is needed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 29, 2010, 03:37:21 AM
Yeah, I just beat him. Now that I know that Flowing Hellfire comes at a predictable rate, I switched Minoriko, Patchy (until she got one-shotted by a tackle but what else is new), Marisa and Cirno while Meiling and Yugi sucked up the damage and Reimu and Alice could survive a hit with Great Hakurei Barrier. Onto the next floor. o/

...Please tell me that this is the only teleporter puzzle floor, because that was just retarded.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 29, 2010, 03:41:13 AM
Yeah, I just beat him. Now that I know that Flowing Hellfire comes at a predictable rate, I switched Minoriko, Patchy (until she got one-shotted by a tackle but what else is new), Marisa and Cirno while Meiling and Yugi sucked up the damage and Reimu and Alice could survive a hit with Great Hakurei Barrier. Onto the next floor. o/

...Please tell me that this is the only teleporter puzzle floor, because that was just retarded.
17F.

13F involves teleporting but in a completely different manner.

And both can just be cheesed through with the wiki, although if you don't explore most of the floor afterwards then you'll just end up grinding to make up for it. You'll probably find the 10~12F puzzle and 18F more annoying, anyway  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 29, 2010, 04:07:55 AM
donut, I would reccomend spending into Fire Affinity on your chars as Fire is 1 of the most used elements overall, the next closest for what I have seen would be Mystic and Wind. The other 3 are lesser in usage in comparison, with Ice being rare compared to Fire >_>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 29, 2010, 07:29:32 AM
donut, I would reccomend spending into Fire Affinity on your chars as Fire is 1 of the most used elements overall, the next closest for what I have seen would be Mystic and Wind. The other 3 are lesser in usage in comparison, with Ice being rare compared to Fire >_>
I haven't started Affinity boosting yet. Should I have started already?

Well, Meiling actually can survive that if she must, but you really need a Master Spark that does at least 80k damage or its nearly impossible to win.
http://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/12/80/32/92/untitl10.jpg (end team spoilers, etc.)

Only
Eirin
was KO'd from a 2k hit as the weak (Meiling) heal only brought her up to 1.8k. I was still sitting on Lv64 when I did this. A "Full Power" (+80% obv) Spark did ~75k
And I thought I "overbuffed" Marisa already, with MAG at Lv60 at that point
. I did not use any form of slow debuff (e.g. Icicle Fall). I did not use any PAR (rather high PAR resist).

Yeah, I would've been quite screwed if that didn't KO, fortunately I got another hit in for 25k before Resurrection came, which probably helped. Should the battle have kept going, I would've most likely do an all or nothing with Meiling controlled the Battle Count / CT and swapped Chen in to clean up. It would've been an extra 30k damage if that were the case. In other words, a solid, yet flawed victory.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 29, 2010, 07:36:29 AM
Which addresses do you need? I've got current skill points pool, exp gain, skill points gain, all the items and encounter rate. You can fiddle with precise stats on a character, their affinities and resists.

All I need is encounter rate since I'm having little luck with it right now. x.x Everything else I want I figured out.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 29, 2010, 07:38:23 AM
donut, I would reccomend spending into Fire Affinity on your chars as Fire is 1 of the most used elements overall, the next closest for what I have seen would be Mystic and Wind. The other 3 are lesser in usage in comparison, with Ice being rare compared to Fire >_>

Nature becomes a commonly faced element later on, more common than Wind iirc.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on January 29, 2010, 10:14:48 AM
Ok... I am confused, where do I get that >_>... actually, so we don't clutter the topic/get on a mods bad side, just PM me the details.
I, uh...can't seem to send PMs, likely a restriction on new members, so I'll have to just post it here.

Website is http://www.cheatengine.org/ (it's free and legal so I don't think any mods would have a problem with it).  Once it's downloaded and installed, open it and follow the instructions from my earlier post and use the addresses from Matsuri's Rabbit's post (both on page 13).


I think you have it reversed... I beat the latter far before I beat the former. You just have to know her signal and be able to prep to survive the big attack, then shoot her down with Marisa's Spark and any other heavy-hitting attack you have available to you now that her gauge is empty.

Former is pretty tough until you have a decent amount of MDef and anti-DTH status on your team, and even then if you're not training a good amount of physical fighters you could be in trouble (as Patchy and Marisa are the only magic powerhouses who can reliably break her obscene Mdef).

Yuyuko is slightly more dangerous offensively, but she has a lot less durability than Mokou and if you get her paralyzed, it's easy to bring in a couple of physical attackers and hit her very hard.  Patchouli with a Ring of Hades will survive almost anything Yuyuko throws at her since IIRC her attacks are all magic.  The battle with Mokou is a lot longer and consequently there's a lot more chances to slip up and let a character die, and she uses physical attacks occasionally too so you can't simply get by on high MND.

That's all just personal experience/opinion though, I think they're both meant to be fought at around the same level.  I just had more difficulty with
Mokou
.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 29, 2010, 02:49:10 PM
The address for encounters is in the previous thread. Someplace between page 19 and 26 IIRC. Do a text search for my name, the post with a single line of spoiler'd text is the one.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: mlkio on January 29, 2010, 07:13:07 PM
Nature becomes a commonly faced element later on, more common than Wind iirc.

Nature is dangerous because a number of sigil bosses uses it. There's earthquake too and nature is probably the most important one to raise. Other then a few small cases, fire is usually easy to deal with.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 29, 2010, 07:20:25 PM
Kay, finished fixing my computer back up (I think.), and also found out how to make thLaby use the really pretty font that it comes with! Instead of the first and really skinny one it comes with, that is. The one that makes the game look waaay better x3

Basically, you just have to have Japanese Locale activated. Either with Applocale, or set your computer's secondary to Japanese in the third (third on XP, at least) tab in "Regional and Language Options" inside the Windows Control Panel. You know, that "Language for Non-Unicode Programs" thingy.

Doing so also means Danmakufu and such will work all the time, so it's pretty nifty.

Anyway, now to finally get back to 16F... whew!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 29, 2010, 10:40:03 PM
Nature is dangerous because a number of sigil bosses uses it. There's earthquake too and nature is probably the most important one to raise. Other then a few small cases, fire is usually easy to deal with.
Out of curiosity, are attacks like Huge Earthquake magical, physical, or composite?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 29, 2010, 11:03:28 PM
The address for encounters is in the previous thread. Someplace between page 19 and 26 IIRC. Do a text search for my name, the post with a single line of spoiler'd text is the one.

I haven't been able to find the thread. Any idea how to effectively scan the encounter rate? I think I need to scan the hidden value and not the shown one.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 29, 2010, 11:33:16 PM
Yuyuko
down, with
Eirin
KO'd... again. This time, from a measly 650 damage (current HP was 630). I blame my poor judgment and thought, yeah, she'll take the next hit fine after a buff.

Not to mention the sheer number of restarts because
"SFN" kept instakilling once certain person with a DTH Resist of 32. Oddly enough, nobody else got instakilled even with 32s, it was just this one poor excuse of a person
.
Stupid meat shield  :V

Now, regarding which one of the "two" is easier (12F vs 14F), I'd say they're about the same.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 29, 2010, 11:37:27 PM
What. The. Fuck.

How much health does Suwako have?! I must have done over 150000 damage and she wouldn't die!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 29, 2010, 11:42:54 PM
180k+?

Also, I believe a spoiler tag is necessary  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 29, 2010, 11:44:33 PM
Yeah, well screw her, I'm going to come back later and THEN we'll see who's the wall of punishment after I'm a few levels higher. The only other thing left to do on floor 8 is kill the last two spirits so I can take Komachi home.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on January 29, 2010, 11:57:02 PM
Yeah, well screw her, I'm going to come back later and THEN we'll see who's the wall of punishment after I'm a few levels higher. The only other thing left to do on floor 8 is kill the last two spirits so I can take Komachi home.

Trust me she can be annoying. You can have a battle going perfectly fine then all of a sudden, one attack from her paralyzes your entire party then kills everyone on the next one.

Yeah, it happened to me, and I managed to paralyze her every time..
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 30, 2010, 12:00:54 AM
Yeah, well screw her, I'm going to come back later and THEN we'll see who's the wall of punishment after I'm a few levels higher. The only other thing left to do on floor 8 is kill the last two spirits so I can take Komachi home.
Go get
Suwako
once you get stuck at the 12f trio.
The exp from all the exploring 10-12f requires will put you at a high enough level to not have problems.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 30, 2010, 12:09:07 AM
That's overdoing it a bit too much IMO. Finishing off 9F should be plenty if you play right.

Going through 10-12F would give you waaaay too much, and that also means that you would be getting
Sanae
much too late as well; the boost of EXP does help for her.

Also, done the special 7F encounter yet? If not, then it's an excuse to grind. If so, then done the same for 8F after touching the new 7F event?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 12:17:44 AM
What special encounter? Come on, don't be shy with those spoiler tags. I have explored every nook and cranny of floor 7 and have no intention of going back unless I know for sure there's something there.

Anyway, got Komachi. I have to say, having prodigious amounts of health is one way to be a tank, but the fact that her defenses suck and the whole "healing" of someone with that much health is worrisome.

Also, I assume that bosses have an immunity to death, huh? :<
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 12:24:13 AM
What special encounter? Come on, don't be shy with those spoiler tags. I have explored every nook and cranny of floor 7 and have no intention of going back unless I know for sure there's something there.

Anyway, got Komachi. I have to say, having prodigious amounts of health is one way to be a tank, but the fact that her defenses suck and the whole "healing" of someone with that much health is worrisome.

Also, I assume that bosses have an immunity to death, huh? :<
Of course they have immunity to DTH... what is this, Final Fantasy?  :V

Minoriko shouldn't have as much trouble with healing Komachi as you think, but don't expect full heals without a MAG buff. Komachi is also great against bosses for her Narrow Confines of Avici, that and her massive HP is what makes her useful.

Also, the 7F encounter is with
Nitori
. After you fight her in a random encounter (NOT an event), a new event with her will appear. The same will happen in 8F afterwards, and then she appears as an optional boss in the veryvery beginning of 9F (a quite difficult boss).



Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 12:27:26 AM
Oh yes, I've just returned from getting my ass kicked by her. Like I said, I tripped every individual teleporter on the map that wasn't the 12 in a vertical row since I already found the right one.

Ya know...I think I'm just going to avoid these bosses and go explore floor 9 now. Also, is Sanae good once I get her? And how soon is it before I get 20 characters...?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 12:34:41 AM
Oh yes, I've just returned from getting my ass kicked by her. Like I said, I tripped every individual teleporter on the map that wasn't the 12 in a vertical row since I already found the right one.

Ya know...I think I'm just going to avoid these bosses and go explore floor 9 now. Also, is Sanae good once I get her? And how soon is it before I get 20 characters...?
After you get Suwako and Nitori and beat the 9F mandatory boss (not hard to do, much easier then either of the former), then you can go fight for Sanae. Although, you probably won't win until after you've been doing 10~12F.

Sanae is like an alternative to Minoriko.
Slightly higher DEF/lower MND
Normalish attacking skill damage but no MND-piercing unlike Minoriko
Much weaker heal (still good healing) but it removes all debuffs/status affects
Buff boosts all stats by 35% instead of MND/DEF by 50%(I think Minoriko's is 50%, at least)
And keep in mind all of her attacks and her heal/buff have MUCH worse delays then Minoriko.

Oh, and her affinities are all average-ish instead of Minoriko's really high NTR/WND and low FIR/CLD.

Either works well, originally people recommended Sanae and now they recommend Minoriko.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 01:39:34 AM
?! People think suwako is difficult?! I mean yes she has a lot of health, but that's pretty much all she has going for her. I honestly think you shouldn't have difficulties with her assuming you understand everything. I mean do you know that when you switch a character out in battle, they are virtually spamming focus every time they would get a turn assuming they were in the front row? Are you distributing skillpoints in defense stats as well as offense (and not just for your tanks).

As for Sanae/Minoriko. On paper I like Sanae more...However I can never ever ever keep her alive thru a boss fight. It just seems like something will 1shot her, and not somtehing that would 1shot anybody else. Overgrowth, exileratio (or whatever it's called), etc always seems to make her croak. I mean her health and mnd don't seem *THAT* bad, but stick her in a fight, and pretty much any multi-target spell of reasonable power will make her go splat. Quit possibly the most dissapointing character for me that I thought was great originally when I got her.

As for getting Sanae, once you meet the requirements, she's guarded by a boss encounter that will most likely 1-hit ko your entire party (even your tanks) before you can even move. Everyone basically goes "wtf" their first time seeing it happen. Definately a level grind is neccesary encounter. Nitori and Suwako on the other hand, are possible to beat without grinding (Nitori should be hard though).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 30, 2010, 01:54:43 AM
First off, Suwako is fairly eh in terms of difficulty. Though, the absurd amount of HP will make it so that you're bound to have casualties if you try to take her on from the get-go. A small grind session should minimalize this. And take advantage of "this and that"  :V

As for getting
Sanae
, once you meet the requirements, she's guarded by a boss encounter that will most likely 1-hit ko your entire party (even your tanks) before you can even move. Everyone basically goes "wtf" their first time seeing it happen. Definately a level grind is neccesary encounter.
Why do a lot of people think this boss is difficult as well? I was able to take it on after doing 9F with no problems whatsoever. Nobody got KO'd.

Nitori
is a bit of a bitch though, I'll admit that.

As for
Sanae and Minoriko
...
The former can't take MAG hits as well overall. Despite the slight differences in MND Growth, the latter levels up much faster, meaning that the difference will start to get wider and wider. DEF difference is rather negligible. And lastly, Attribute allocation (from Lv ups and Skill Points). Honestly, the former's buffs are better off being used for offensive capabilities, while the latter's for defensive. Not to mention, the heal is good enough to use even without pumping MAG.

Enough of that...

Orin
just crashed the game by means of an invalid target. So unlucky of me to get debuffed, walked all over and take ridiculous amounts of damage. I need to think of an approach (read: don't tell me anything).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on January 30, 2010, 02:06:16 AM
Orin
just crashed the game by means of an invalid target. So unlucky of me to get debuffed, walked all over and take ridiculous amounts of damage. I need to think of an approach (read: don't tell me anything).
I am only going to say one thing about that fight, she likes to crash the game if no ones in the first party spot.  That is all
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 02:19:16 AM
?! People think suwako is difficult?! I mean yes she has a lot of health, but that's pretty much all she has going for her. I honestly think you shouldn't have difficulties with her assuming you understand everything. I mean do you know that when you switch a character out in battle, they are virtually spamming focus every time they would get a turn assuming they were in the front row? Are you distributing skillpoints in defense stats as well as offense (and not just for your tanks).

You and Trance need to realize not all of us can grind and "twink" our characters like crazy, nor do we want to. >_>

Anyway, FROGGY JUST GOT BRAVE'D. A couple levels from exploring the lovely maze known as floor 9 (seriously, I like it even if 90% of it is completely pointless) and replacing Aya with someone who can actually deal and take damage (Komachi) gave me the edge I needed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 02:34:14 AM
Anyway, FROGGY JUST GOT BRAVE'D. A couple levels from exploring the lovely maze known as floor 9 (seriously, I like it even if 90% of it is completely pointless) and replacing Aya with someone who can actually deal and take damage (Komachi) gave me the edge I needed.
If you wanna use her, raise her ATK. Her multi-hit MAG skills are good for random battles, but her ATK skills shine; a PAR skill three times stronger then what Reimu and Cirno have and with actual good damage, and then a big nuke with a great element (NTR, few bosses resist and many are weak)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 03:47:16 AM
Yes, Suwako's not bad for the effort it took to get her. ;D Also, I just beat Reisen on my first try. Useless rabbit, good for nothing. Not even her sex appeal, as there is none for me. :V I should go and try Nitori again.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 04:03:25 AM
Quote from: BAD BOY BAITY!! (dj Remo-con MIX) link=topic=4614.msg236429#msg236429
Why do a lot of people think this boss is difficult as well? I was able to take it on after doing 9F with [b
no[/b] problems whatsoever. Nobody got KO'd.
You must have been high level then, because as I said, it tends to OHKO your entire party before you even get to MOVE with that badass opener (it is easy if you can live thru the opener though).

Quote
You and Trance need to realize not all of us can grind and "twink" our characters like crazy, nor do we want to. >_>

I never said level up or grind or anything, I'm just saying Suwako shouldn't be difficult, I found her easier than the boss guarding the end of the previous floor actually (I encountered her by mistake super early in my 8F explorations too, so I didn't really level up much since). I suspect that since you're having difficulties with a boss that has high health and low damage, you are favoring spending skillpoints on attack disproportionately to defense, I say this because it seemed to be a common mistake to many of the people when the first thread was relatively new. It's your first time playing and you aren't even at floor 10 yet, there is nothing wrong with not being aware with a certain fundamental game mechanic or something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 30, 2010, 04:11:12 AM
You and Trance need to realize not all of us can grind and "twink" our characters like crazy, nor do we want to. >_>

I'm only grinding like crazy because it is necessitated if I want to rip through 900m worth of HP in a decent amount of time. Furthermore, I never said anything to you about "grinding like crazy." Level is the fucking god stat and dictates almost everything about your characters, so it's only natural that you'll have to do SOME levelling up, otherwise some parts of the game become impossible.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 04:18:39 AM
Fair enough, but IMO the mark of a really good RPG is one that doesn't require ANY grinding unless you've been making a beeline towards every boss.

Also, just beat Nitori. Maybe it was the levels gained in floor 9, but it was mostly because Moriya's Iron Ring kept paralyzing Nitori to the point that she couldn't fire off her mega death beam while also dealing amazing damage to her.

EDIT: ...Huh. I just went to go see if I could recruit Sanae, then got attacked by a boss and got one-shotted. Even Komachi died.

Welp. Onto floor 10.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 30, 2010, 04:26:01 AM
You must have been high level then, because as I said, it tends to OHKO your entire party before you even get to MOVE with that badass opener (it is easy if you can live thru the opener though).
There's a very simple approach to it. In fact, I used the same strategy as I did for a certain other Boss, only this time I had more useful items to equip and soak (even) more damage.

Fair enough, but IMO the mark of a really good RPG is one that doesn't require ANY grinding unless you've been making a beeline towards every boss.
I haven't grinded yet  :V
...that's a good start, right?
Right? ;_;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 04:26:33 AM
Fair enough, but IMO the mark of a really good RPG is one that doesn't require ANY grinding unless you've been making a beeline towards every boss.

Which is exactly why I'm gung-ho about informing people that they don't need to level to beat bosses like suwako. I know I might come across as snobby by telling people that I didn't grind to beat x-boss that other people did need to grind to beat. But we're Touhou fans here, and I find it hard to believe that a Touhou fan (especially a lunatic one) wouldn't want to challenge themselves by trying again or trying something new to beat an encounter instead of leveling up to easymode it. You know? I hope that makes sense.

I really appreciate this game very much because just about everything up to the plus disk was insanely well balanced IMO, and I think other people who like challenging games as well will be able to better appreciate it if they are aware that leveling isn't actually necessary. It's like when a new shooter game comes out (cough UFO), people swear up and down it's literally impossible to no bomb this part or that part or whatever, at least until someone does it, then suddenly everyone wants to do it too.

Although in your case, if you didn't completely explore the teleporter floor, or if you didn't get lost a LITTLE, you might be behind level I dunno. I know I had to try *MANY* teleporter combinations before I found the right one to the next floor, if you faq'd it or something, that could hurt your level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 04:29:29 AM
Alright, I understand. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Again, any tips on Sanae's foe? Or is this enemy meant to be fought later on? Also, like I said, I tripped EVERY teleporter on floor 7. Even once I found the way to the boss, I went all the way back to the last three-way split just to make sure the last teleporter didn't lead anywhere.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 30, 2010, 04:32:59 AM
EDIT: ...Huh. I just went to go see if I could recruit Sanae, then got attacked by a boss and got one-shotted. Even Komachi died.


You need to
beat Sanae's Foe before you can recruit Sanae
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 30, 2010, 04:33:59 AM
Again, any tips on Sanae's foe?
There's a very simple approach to it. In fact, I used the same strategy as I did for a certain other Boss, only this time I had more useful items to equip and soak (even) more damage.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 04:37:00 AM
I haven't grinded yet  :V
...that's a good start, right?
Right? ;_;
Not having to grind yet before you reach 16F boss isn't particularly amazing. But it is better then a lot of other people, thats to be sure.

K, just finished off everything before 16F boss... and I'm really starting to get a tad irritated with how my party is turning out, using all different characters from my first play. (exception for Reimu/Marisa)

A few of the characters just seem fairly sub-par when it comes to anything other then random trash, but its such a sink in skillpoints to switch now... plus, there is the nagging thoughts that I'm just not seeing their usefulness  :V

You need to
beat Sanae's Foe before you can recruit Sanae
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2706/24zwuvt.gif)

But yeah, I'd wait out on Sanae until you do most (at least SOME) of the 10~12F puzzle. You'll have to do so for many optional bosses starting at this point, because the first times you reach them you simply are not meant to be able to win yet.

As Baity is saying (...I think  :V), putting FIR affinity equips on your tanks will help. Flowing Hellfire will happen about every 3 turns, and that is the only real danger.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 30, 2010, 04:39:29 AM
On topic of Suwako, she bested me on my 1st encounter, and I had most on the floor mapped out prior to that. My death was NOWHERE near as fast as the 7F boss loss, but when key chars like Patchy get OHKO'ed by a against-the-odds Moreya's Iron Ring to the face while said target is in Slot 4, things get bad.

Levels might not be *NEEDED* but worst comes to worst, they can help a bit.

For Sanae's Foe, if you are grinding I have an obvious tip that you should NOT over-look. Fire Resistant Equips and Fire Skill Levels will help to no end. I got multiple chars to Fire Skill Level 20-30 before I took down Sanae's Foe.

Quote
K, just finished off everything before 16F boss... and I'm really starting to get a tad irritated with how my party is turning out, using all different characters from my first play. (exception for Reimu/Marisa)

A few of the characters just seem fairly sub-par when it comes to anything other then random trash, but its such a sink in skillpoints to switch now... plus, there is the nagging thoughts that I'm just not seeing their usefulness 

What party do you use? Cause I have numerous chars I do not like and I'm curious as to who you are using.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 30, 2010, 06:17:25 AM
Still can't beat 16F.

What is the reccomended about of skillpoint distribution amounts for my point in the game (how much into main stat, how much into backup stat, how much into weak stat, etc.)? I feel as though I'm behind.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on January 30, 2010, 07:34:13 AM
80/100, Lv8060

Slowly, but surely, I will pass this challenge. And then I am finally done with this game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 30, 2010, 07:54:45 AM
I haven't been able to find the thread. Any idea how to effectively scan the encounter rate? I think I need to scan the hidden value and not the shown one.

Encounter 00121AD8 Float type

First guess what kind of variable it is, an integer use the normal type, a percentage use a type that incorporates the decimal point. Stick it in the search and then track changes. The only hidden variables of importance in the game are the battle points. Totally negligible and no need to hack.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 30, 2010, 07:56:43 AM
Does anyone know the hp totals of the ver 2 bloodstained seal bosses on 21F?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 09:02:08 AM
Still can't beat 16F.

What is the reccomended about of skillpoint distribution amounts for my point in the game (how much into main stat, how much into backup stat, how much into weak stat, etc.)? I feel as though I'm behind.

There's no set rule for this. But I go by how much it costs to purchase each skill level, and use that as a measurement rather than the actual skill level. Then I make it so all the sky-high or important stats cost double the skillpoints to upgrade as pretty much everything else. Examples of important IMO are stuff like patchy's mnd and mag, tanks def/mnd/hp, Aya/chen's speed, Remi/yuugi/chen/flan's attack, etc. Treat squishy caster mnd like you would treat a tank's defense. It really makes them survive everything anybody else could but unlucky single-target melee attacks.

If you want to be even more efficient, instead of pumping the important stats even more, I suggest figuring out the less useful, but actually used stats out, and making them cost 1/3 or 1/4 as much as the important stats instead of 1/2 like everything else. For example, I find stats that fit in this catagory to be stuff like patchy's def, Reimu's atk (yes her spells are composite, her support spells are not though, and I don't use her as a nuker), Kaggy's mag (important for those high def trash, but once she can one shot them, it fits here, because during bosses, she's basically only good for the stone bowl spell IMO), Tenshi's attack (hong's attack is actually fairly useful IMO since it affects her heal amount by a decent amount), etc.

 I haven't a clue how one should spend points on resists though. I tend to ignore it, then blow millions of skillpoints into them semi-evenly once in awhile. They always tend to cost alot less than everything else though. Alot of the time when I blow my points into them, I think I can really crank up their level because they are so cheap. But if you do every element, you'll be suprised at how little they go up before you're out of skillpoints!

I never really gave nature preferential treatment here, but now that I think of it as trance mentioned earlier on, I DO seem to notice overgrowth and earthquake tend to make me cringe more than most spells.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 30, 2010, 04:23:53 PM
Can someone upload the 2.06 exe for me? The link is still broken.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Can someone upload the 2.06 exe for me? The link is still broken.
Quote
For people who want the delicious Level-Up Cursor Memory, here is a link to the 2.06 patch. Or also, if you want the New Game+ feature.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DA1DGQZC

Rename the thLaby.exe in this folder to thLaby2.06.exe or something, and copy all this into your game folder, minus the save file.

Whenever you need to level up a single character a ton, start 2.06 so you don't have to scroll down to the correct Level-Up bonus each time, saving a HUUUUGE amount of time for you since now you just spam Z a bunch.

I recommend against actually using 2.06 for casual play however, because of bugs and glitches. The only significant changes anyway are this, Nitori's Megawatt is much stronger, and there is a New Game+ function (Which you can probably activate in 2.06 and then play in 2.04)
See quote, new link put in.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 30, 2010, 05:25:59 PM
See quote, new link put in.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 07:53:32 PM
Okay, after pumping some skill points into fire affinity and equipping fire-resisting items I can survive Sanae's foe a bit, but he's still too tough. Also there's the fact that this last time I tried, he started SPAMMING his Hellfire move. There's no way I can win if he uses it every turn. Any idea how much health this dude has?

Also, the music for Floors 10-12 is pretty pimpin'. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 08:27:57 PM
Okay, after pumping some skill points into fire affinity and equipping fire-resisting items I can survive Sanae's foe a bit, but he's still too tough. Also there's the fact that this last time I tried, he started SPAMMING his Hellfire move. There's no way I can win if he uses it every turn. Any idea how much health this dude has?

Also, the music for Floors 10-12 is pretty pimpin'. :V
Every turn? Must have been the final phase, I suppose. Bosses usually go batshit on you when they are nearly dead (which is what makes Marisa's MASTER SPAAAARK so very needed in this game).

And if you like that music, just wait until you get to the new battle music; when the battle music changes, you'll know you're at the last part of the maze.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 08:31:22 PM
For all the SP it uses, Master Spark really isn't that strong. :[ Yugi can do more damage with a single Supernatural Phenomenon.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 08:42:48 PM
For all the SP it uses, Master Spark really isn't that strong. :[ Yugi can do more damage with a single Supernatural Phenomenon.
Use Concentrate 3 times and have someone else bench Marisa before her next turn, so she has 97% MAG buff. Then, when you pull her out again... BAM insane damage. And make sure to have her equipped with MAG boosting gear, ofc. It's really insane damage, and almost mandatory to kill some bosses final phases before a mass party killer is used.

It should do like, 4~6x the damage Yuugi's Supernatural Phenomenon does. Although this will vary greatly, especially depending on the bosses MYS affinity.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 08:58:27 PM
For all the SP it uses, Master Spark really isn't that strong. :[ Yugi can do more damage with a single Supernatural Phenomenon.

master spark did pretty lame damage for me too back then, it becomes important later on for sure though because it makes Marisa do what nobody else can, act as a kind of 5th character character slot, just swap and spark ftw.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 09:30:34 PM
Yeah, I think the problem is that this guy is too tough for me right now. The fact is that even though I have some characters that can survive one Flowing Hellfire, he can still opt to tackle and OHKO anyone else in between. Plus Marisa's Master Spark, even powered up to that extent, isn't enough to end him once he starts spamming Hellfires. I also put a bunch of fire resistant stuff on people and it didn't help much. I'll simply have to come back later.

By the by, when do I get another person with a group heal spell?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 09:33:24 PM
By the by, when do I get another person with a group heal spell?
ahahaha, haahahaha... ehehehehehe, aahahaNever~<3

...*stops being mean* Yeah, the only healers are Reimu, Minoriko, and Sanae. Meiling and Rumia and Yuka have minor heals, but none of those are meant for the heal aspect. And Yuka is Plus-Disk, anyway.

There are other characters who can heal status effects and debuffs, though. Just not HP.


Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 30, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
How do we new game plus, exactly?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 09:45:46 PM
How do we new game plus, exactly?
The person said it was by beating the Plus-Disk Final Boss. I wouldn't be surprised if its actually normal Final Boss v2, or the really big fancy dangerous looking boss on 30F that doesn't require nearly as much grinding. But it's likely the Plus Disk Final that only true fans/cheaters will beat.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 09:54:13 PM
ahahaha, haahahaha... ehehehehehe, aahahaNever~<3

...*stops being mean* Yeah, the only healers are Reimu, Minoriko, and Sanae. Meiling and Rumia and Yuka have minor heals, but none of those are meant for the heal aspect. And Yuka is Plus-Disk, anyway.

There are other characters who can heal status effects and debuffs, though. Just not HP.

Meilin's heals are worth mentioning IMO. Colorful rain  is big obviously (assuming you boost her attack once in awhile), and her cure/heal is actually useful in the sense that she's a tank. I mean, its sp cost is small, and its delay isn't bad, it's not bad given it's either that or do pretty much nothing. Besides, it's pretty much a heal to full spell for low hp characters like patchy.

but yeah,  not healers for you, you forgot Eirin btw. She doesn't have a group heal either though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 30, 2010, 09:56:59 PM
The person said it was by beating the Plus-Disk Final Boss. I wouldn't be surprised if its actually normal Final Boss v2, or the really big fancy dangerous looking boss on 30F that doesn't require nearly as much grinding. But it's likely the Plus Disk Final that only true fans/cheaters will beat.

Neither worked. Hax'd flandre 1 shotted both, and nothing new happened.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 09:57:36 PM
The person said it was by beating the Plus-Disk Final Boss. I wouldn't be surprised if its actually normal Final Boss v2, or the really big fancy dangerous looking boss on 30F that doesn't require nearly as much grinding. But it's likely the Plus Disk Final that only true fans/cheaters will beat.

Oh god no.

Seriously, anybody know what new game+ does EXACTLY? I really really want the following:
1: start the game over with all your characters available right at the start at level 1 and skilllevel 1, with your exp and skillpoints reimbursed to spend as you please.

I doubt that's the case, but I really need that for data collection purposes.

Are any of the cheaters able to do that? (floor exploration doesn't matter). The reason why is because I'm trying to solve the mystery that is skill point costs for each character, and I don't really want to play thru the whole game again just to see those stats for each character. It's SUPER important that the bonus stats you pick when you level up are reset back to 0 too, or else results for other things will be skewed alot.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 10:05:44 PM
Neither worked. Hax'd flandre 1 shotted both, and nothing new happened.
And you did this using 2.06? Did you try using 2.06 while you fought the boss?

Seriously, anybody know what new game+ does EXACTLY? I really really want the following:
1: start the game over with all your characters available right at the start at level 1 and skilllevel 1, with your exp and skillpoints reimbursed to spend as you please.

I doubt that's the case, but I really need that for data collection purposes.
I think the person said you can choose between the things you want on New Game+, including
>Carrying over items
>Carrying over levels
>Carrying over skillpoints
>Starting with all characters unlocked
With the way he said it, I'm pretty sure he meant you can pick yes/no on these. Starting with all characters would be pretty interesting (And
Renko's
-100%ATK/DEF/MAG/MND debuff would be incredibly hax)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 30, 2010, 10:09:44 PM
Oh god no.

Seriously, anybody know what new game+ does EXACTLY? I really really want the following:
1: start the game over with all your characters available right at the start at level 1 and skilllevel 1, with your exp and skillpoints reimbursed to spend as you please.

I doubt that's the case, but I really need that for data collection purposes.

Are any of the cheaters able to do that? (floor exploration doesn't matter). The reason why is because I'm trying to solve the mystery that is skill point costs for each character, and I don't really want to play thru the whole game again just to see those stats for each character. It's SUPER important that the bonus stats you pick when you level up are reset back to 0 too, or else results for other things will be skewed alot.

What sort of cheating do you need done? Sunday is gonna be slow at work and I could try zip through the game without bothering to gain Exp and leveling.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 30, 2010, 10:10:48 PM
And you did this using 2.06? Did you try using 2.06 while you fought the boss?

Yep. Text reverted to Japanese and everything.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 10:18:44 PM
Yep. Text reverted to Japanese and everything.
Well... I don't know then. Maybe the New Game+ button is in some strange spot (Maybe in Akyu's House?), or maybe it's glitched and isn't working. Or maybe you need to get every single Star or something, I think there is 8 of them.

And just to make sure, you saved the game after killing the boss? Because you'd have to do that if its in the game start menu.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 10:19:38 PM
What sort of cheating do you need done? Sunday is gonna be slow at work and I could try zip through the game without bothering to gain Exp and leveling.

That's pretty time consuming, I wouldn't really like inflicting that upon someone.

But as I said, a save file with every character unlocked, all at level 1, with skill levels at 1, with no stats upped from level up bonus thiniges (being at level 1 might be a given but if you were at level 500, and cheated your level back down to 1, it might not revert that, I don't know), and with loads of exp and skillpoints to spend. By loads, it doesn't have to be enough to be level 1000 or whatever. I just mean enough so that I can level up each character and their stats by enough so that round-off error will be minimal.

The reason why is because as I said, I noticed skill point costs are NOT proportionate the the character's stat growth/base stats. It will also make figuring out enemy mnd and defense much easier.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 30, 2010, 10:33:01 PM
8)

Sanae's been taken home. As I thought, It was just a problem of raising everyone's endurance. Moriya's Iron Ring paralyzing at a good rate also helped. Time to see how she is. Minoriko's heal is godly, but I'd rather have a healer who can actually attack.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 30, 2010, 10:35:32 PM
8)

Sanae's been taken home. As I thought, It was just a problem of raising everyone's endurance. Moriya's Iron Ring paralyzing at a good rate also helped. Time to see how she is. Minoriko's heal is godly, but I'd rather have a healer who can actually attack.
Bu-but... Minoriko still has MND-piercing for those annoying Blackenmels and Helbelmares and other things...

Eheh, I used Sanae the first time through as well. Her added capabilities are really nifty, I mean, Miracle Froot kicks ass. I'm really lovin' Minoriko after keeping her this time though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 30, 2010, 10:38:17 PM
Bu-but... Minoriko still has MND-piercing for those annoying Blackenmels and Helbelmares and other things...

Eheh, I used Sanae the first time through as well. Her added capabilities are really nifty, I mean, Miracle Froot kicks ass. I'm really lovin' Minoriko after keeping her this time though.

Donut has not had the "pleasure" of meeting such enemies yet.

When I first got Sanae I really was looking forward to using her, I mean she had an attack all spirit nuke (rare early game), a great buff, a great heal, curing capability. Her stats even seemed pretty ok. But as I've said numerous times, she dissapoints me because I find her usefulness to bosses is pretty much limited to getting 1shot before long by some move which doesn't really 1shot anybody else, even the notoriously squishy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 30, 2010, 10:44:08 PM
That's pretty time consuming, I wouldn't really like inflicting that upon someone.

But as I said, a save file with every character unlocked, all at level 1, with skill levels at 1, with no stats upped from level up bonus thiniges (being at level 1 might be a given but if you were at level 500, and cheated your level back down to 1, it might not revert that, I don't know), and with loads of exp and skillpoints to spend. By loads, it doesn't have to be enough to be level 1000 or whatever. I just mean enough so that I can level up each character and their stats by enough so that round-off error will be minimal.

The reason why is because as I said, I noticed skill point costs are NOT proportionate the the character's stat growth/base stats. It will also make figuring out enemy mnd and defense much easier.

I'll tell you something about the levels. It's the only thing that determines how much exp it costs to gain the levelup bonus. I tried adjusting a character's level to see what it did to their base stats, no change. Stats can be meddled with individually. So I can jot down some character's starting stats, hack it to sky high, zip through the game gaining no exp and we've got all the figures we need.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on January 30, 2010, 11:54:32 PM
Found it. You simply start a new game and answer yes/no questions after the opening. First choice is character, last is items (I think).

So now I have a starting party of characters who can only use one move before needing to focus.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on January 31, 2010, 01:01:40 AM
Sanae is worse as a healer (not so much because of the amount her heal restores, but because Minoriko can get like 33% more heals in during the same amount of time), but she tends to survive slightly better and has more utility via debuff removal and a better support spell.  Her offense is better but attacking is less attractive when you could be using Miracle Fruit to give a significant damage boost to someone like Patchouli.

I found focusing on speed with her level ups/equipment to be the most effective.  Yasaka's Divine Wind tends to be a full heal on anyone not named Komachi, and she has sufficient survivability/sp with moderate skill point investment, so speed is her main weakness.  Or rather, delays are her main weakness, but boosting speed is the best way of getting around that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 01:47:10 AM
Yes, I've noticed that it's three speed boosts to a speed point with her, and added accordingly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 31, 2010, 01:55:15 AM
Found it. You simply start a new game and answer yes/no questions after the opening. First choice is character, last is items (I think).

So now I have a starting party of characters who can only use one move before needing to focus.  :V
Are you playing the New Game+ on the japanese version 2.06, or did you just save and start it on 2.04?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 02:11:44 AM
Found it. You simply start a new game and answer yes/no questions after the opening. First choice is character, last is items (I think).

So now I have a starting party of characters who can only use one move before needing to focus.  :V

You start with 12 instead of 5 though, so you can nuke, swap, repeat whereas otherwise you could not >=).

Having Flan around for those foe fights should make them much easier though >=P.

Gah, I'm jealous, need to start a 3rd game with those characters!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 31, 2010, 02:27:54 AM
Be careful when re-recruiting characters in New Game+, if you do it in 2.04 it resets their stats back to level 1 :-[
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 02:32:11 AM
Be careful when re-recruiting characters in New Game+, if you do it in 2.04 it resets their stats back to level 1 :-[

That kinda stinks for bosses you are forced to recruit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 31, 2010, 02:35:42 AM
That kinda stinks for bosses you are forced to recruit.
I just save, go fight them in 2.06, save again, then go back to 2.04 :V
I guess it's kinda lucky I was using Cirno when I fought her, otherwise I would have been screwed out of several more characters (I already lost Meiling, Chen, Cirno, and Youmu).
I would have cried if I lost Alice.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jyazen on January 31, 2010, 03:08:04 AM
Just reached the Plus Disk, yay  :V

Or as Plus Disk as I can get before I hit the "you need 3 star" road block. Sigh... guess I have more work to do. No problem, I did survive until the Plus Disk after all.  ;D

Just one minor question to the more experienced people:
Is there a limit to Element Affinity? I've been raising Affinity a lot (especially on the nearly no DEF/MND girls) and is now at 300-ish affinity on some, with it being 500-600-ish with items. Was just wondering if there's a max so I won't waste my preciousssss SP if it, say, maxes out at 500 or something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on January 31, 2010, 03:10:46 AM
Just reached the Plus Disk, yay  :V

Or as Plus Disk as I can get before I hit the "you need 3 star" road block. Sigh... guess I have more work to do. No problem, I did survive until the Plus Disk after all.  ;D

Just one minor question to the more experienced people:
Is there a limit to Element Affinity? I've been raising Affinity a lot (especially on the nearly no DEF/MND girls) and is now at 300-ish affinity on some, with it being 500-600-ish with items. Was just wondering if there's a max so I won't waste my preciousssss SP if it, say, maxes out at 500 or something.
No max, but at some point it becomes so expensive to raise them that it's simply impractical.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 03:42:22 AM
Just reached the Plus Disk, yay  :V

Or as Plus Disk as I can get before I hit the "you need 3 star" road block. Sigh... guess I have more work to do. No problem, I did survive until the Plus Disk after all.  ;D

I find the plus disk to be dissapointing comapred to the original game. Too much grinding required, yes, required. Not to mention there is virtually no story, in addition, the gear, exp, and skillpoint values in all the new content is really screwed up. They really didn't put the same level of effort in having everything balanced in the plus disk IMO. Still though, the game is so good it's still fun anyway. Plus the joinable characters are kinda unique.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 04:00:26 AM
So, do I have this right? Due to the way floor 12 is set up, I have to find and deactivate every switch in one sitting without a relay point...do I have that right?

Oooh boy. This is gonna suck.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 04:03:44 AM
So, do I have this right? Due to the way floor 12 is set up, I have to find and deactivate every switch in one sitting without a relay point...do I have that right?

Oooh boy. This is gonna suck.
For one switch (I think Green) you have to deactivate and reactivate; and if you want to get Tenshi after finishing this part, deactivate it again before leaving to Gensokyo. After that though, unless you missed a Flandre meeting or Sake shard or the first and easiest Lock, you won't need to mess with switches anymore.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 04:07:58 AM
Wait...what? You lost me. D: I just can't help but notice that once you leave, you have to reactivate every switch to gain access to the area beyond the three barriers. So I have to reactivate it...?

@_@

Sanayoulostme.jpg
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 04:13:01 AM
Wait...what? You lost me. D: I just can't help but notice that once you leave, you have to reactivate every switch to gain access to the area beyond the three barriers. So I have to reactivate it...?

@_@

Sanayoulostme.jpg
Err, sorry. You'll figure it out yourself before long. Besides, since you aren't planning on doing post-game stuff it doesn't matter too much if you miss a character (although the boss fights are fun).

Anyway, very near the 12F relay point is a switch to turn on all three switches, so you can go through the triple barrier. It won't turn them all off if you hit it again, by the way.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 31, 2010, 04:14:23 AM
Wait...what? You lost me. D: I just can't help but notice that once you leave, you have to reactivate every switch to gain access to the area beyond the three barriers. So I have to reactivate it...?
Switches retain their current position even after you leave. That, and -cut- dammit.

Sanayoulostme.jpg
(http://i34.tinypic.com/4sz0iq.jpg)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 04:17:59 AM
Oh, but I want every character I can get. Plus I hear Tenshi is invaluable and borderline broken. And yes, I noticed that switch.

Put it in spoiler tags if you want, but if this is something I have to preplan tell me what it is I have to do and why.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 04:21:57 AM
Oh, but I want every character I can get. Plus I hear Tenshi is invaluable and borderline broken. And yes, I noticed that switch.

Put it in spoiler tags if you want, but if this is something I have to preplan tell me what it is I have to do and why.
You don't really need to preplan, since the area is fairly small. First just explore it all you can without messing with switches, and you'll see where you need to start going after you turn off the first switch.

And yes, she is. Invaluble, no, borderline broken, yes. Exactly why I'm not using her this playthrough; having her take 0 damage from everything and switch in a nuker when the boss won't get a chance to attack it... that isn't really a satisfying way to win.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 04:37:07 AM
Oh, then I guess you're not talking about this area. :V The area past this "green switch off" barrier was freaking huge, but I found the failsafe unlock. This is the first time in a while that my entire team is almost out of TP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 04:44:26 AM
Not sure exactly where you're stuck. but here goes:

To get tenshi, you have to have every switch turned off, then you use the 12F relay point, and backtrack down the stairs you took to get to the relay point for the first time.

To complete the 3 floors as a whole. You use the relay point, have all switches turned on (the all on switch is right there anyway), pass the triple lock orb thingie, and turn all the switches off (via new switches that you can only access after the relay point), and I think you have to turn them on again. It's really hard to explain.

The key is to treat everything before the relay point completely seperate from everything after, it'll save you a huge headache if you avoid treating it all as one big area.

So get all the corners and secrets before the relay point, ignore the all on switch btw, and then pretend everything up to that point never existed when you're ready to finish the floor (the stuff after). I seem to recall you had to turn the first switch off, then on again, before you could turn the 3rd switch off for the first time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 04:49:10 AM
...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! >_<

I'm going to go see what I unlocked by turning the failsafe thingamajig off, 'kay? X(

Also, I have officially been playing this game for 24 hours. T_T
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 05:27:16 AM
...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! >_<

I'm going to go see what I unlocked by turning the failsafe thingamajig off, 'kay? X(

Also, I have officially been playing this game for 24 hours. T_T
wait; thats the first Failsafe lock you've undone? Oops, you must have missed one. Don't worry, its the simplest to get and you can do it later.

Anyway, unlocking all 4 Fail-Safe locks will open the door on 12F leading to the boss. You know, the door on 12F that you've been able to reach since the moment you finished 9F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 31, 2010, 05:32:55 AM
Donut, I have over 100 hours on my file, and that is somewhat small compared to how many I have put into some games. :V

Honestly, Tenshi isn't as good for me as people say she is. Yes she take 0 from a lot of attacks, but so does Meiling. Tenshi at her best is similar to cutting you down to 3 char slots but in return, some times a boss will waste a turn. My tenshi NEEDS that full buff to take 0s while my Meiling takes 0-1000 from most moves without a buff and since my Meiling is at the point where she has a little over 100k HP that amount of dmg taken is pathetic. 8)

Then there is the detail of purpose past taking 0s in dmg, Tenshi has a 40% chance of Buff Removal with 1 move that will probly do 0, and then she has 2 other moves that will tend to deal 0. Meiling on the other hand has a rather good Self-Target HP healing move and a half-decent healing move the removes ailments and can be used on any ally. On top of that Meiling can also toss out decent dmg to most foes with her 2nd move or good dmg to lower DEF foes that don't have a lot of SPI resistance with her 1st move.

All of that is personal exp from using both of them, and I didn't want to have to drop someone for Tenshi and then have to spend Skill Points on her instead.

Also Donut, the 10F-12F bit is my most hated portion of the game due to the enemies mixed in with the floor setup. But if you found 1 Failsafe Lock, then your nearing the end of that pesky portion of the game. You can do it, just hang in their!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 05:47:02 AM
I actually like this stretch of the game. There's always somewhere new to look around in and I actually see the goal I'm gradually heading towards.

Also, I've deactivated all three switches and have found 3 failsafe locks. If I don't find that last one in the last area I haven't explored yet I'm going to be a sad pastry. ;_;

Also, since I've deactivated all the switches, where do I have to go to find Tenshi?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on January 31, 2010, 05:55:11 AM
Donut, you enter the labyrinth from the 12F Relay, then run down to 10F. Remember that thing that need the Blue switch on then a Blue thing that needed the Blue Switch Off? Tenshi is past that point, but you also need Green and Red off to get to her.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 05:56:38 AM
Also, since I've deactivated all the switches, where do I have to go to find Tenshi?
To get tenshi, you have to have every switch turned off, then you use the 12F relay point, and backtrack down the stairs you took to get to the relay point for the first time.
When you get back to 10F, you'll see that blue dot that requires the switch to be off. Mhmm~

Also, the last failsafe lock... you need the blue switch on I believe. It's above the original switch for Red, which you should have found fairly early in the 10~12F puzzle.

Also, if you haven't seen Flan twice, you are missing her. Same with a Sake Shard. And the events involving a black cat and ghosts, with Patch/Youmu/Rumia/Chen, which will not disappear if you do not have enough battle points with said characters for each of the events.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 06:10:21 AM
Welp. I have somehow missed the last failsafe. Also I have seen the black cat and ghosts, but I haven't seen Flandre. Which is REALLY odd because I've explored damn near every place in this maze. ;_;

And are you saying I'm going to need to turn the switches all around again, all because I missed one early on?

;_;

More than my whining, I can't honestly be expected to remember where the earlier switches are. :V







EDIT:


WHAT.

So...there's actually a whole ton of stuff left to do on these floors outside of finding that last failsafe lock (which I STILL don't know where to look for BTW). I have to find Flandre, but also I should have fought a lot more with Rumia and Youmu? And there's something about losing characters if I do something wrong? I just want to be done! ;_;


EDIT 2: Okay, having calmed down/resigned myself to my fate, what counts as "battle points?" Do I just have to have them in my 12 team party, or have them actually fight?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 31, 2010, 06:57:37 AM
Honestly, Tenshi isn't as good for me as people say she is. Yes she take 0 from a lot of attacks, but so does Meiling. Tenshi at her best is similar to cutting you down to 3 char slots but in return, some times a boss will waste a turn. My tenshi NEEDS that full buff to take 0s while my Meiling takes 0-1000 from most moves without a buff and since my Meiling is at the point where she has a little over 100k HP that amount of dmg taken is pathetic.
At what levels are we talking about and how many skillpoints are invested in each girl and their defenses?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 31, 2010, 07:09:51 AM
So...there's actually a whole ton of stuff left to do on these floors outside of finding that last failsafe lock (which I STILL don't know where to look for BTW). I have to find Flandre, but also I should have fought a lot more with Rumia and Youmu? And there's something about losing characters if I do something wrong? I just want to be done! ;_;


EDIT 2: Okay, having calmed down/resigned myself to my fate, what counts as "battle points?" Do I just have to have them in my 12 team party, or have them actually fight?

The Rumia event is on 9F, by the way.  And there's nothing that's lost forever, so don't worry about screwing anything up to ruin your game as far as recruitment or whatever.

As far as the battle points, characters get one battle point for being in the front four at the start of battle, and one point for being in the front four at the end of battle.  The points do nothing as far as character abilities, and only affect the few events that require battle points (for Chen, Youmu, and Rumia), and that the character with the most battle points is the character who appears on your save file.

Edit: also, if you're desperate enough, there's three (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/?plugin=ref&serial=13) useful (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/?plugin=ref&serial=14) maps (http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/?plugin=ref&serial=15) on the Japanese wiki (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/1.html&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1) that can help you out.  The parts of the map that are pointed to in light blue text are the four fail-safe locks.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 07:21:41 AM
...FUCK.

PLEASE tell me where to find this failsafe I missed. ;_; I spent about an hour flipping switches to go to the one last place I haven't looked in, and it turns out I needed to flip the blue switch ON. ASG;jkl;klj;kljv;lkjv I am so pissed off right now, and if it turned out I wasn't even goingto the right place...

Ya know what? I'm done for tonight. I'm too frustrated to go through that whole rigamarole again, and inferring from the wiki, where that is is actually where I start the process to recruit Flandre. So I've got that, and I have to grind and use Chen, Youmu, and Rumia, all of whom I think are pretty useless...not to mention I'll have to go through that process AGAIN to reach the events to unlock Yuyuko (who I hear is worth all the trouble but with all this I wonder...).

If anything, I'm getting good experience, since I heard the Eientei trio are pretty hard.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 07:22:20 AM
Twinked/hacked saves! Who needs what sort? Send your requests here.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 31, 2010, 08:14:08 AM
I find the plus disk to be dissapointing comapred to the original game. Too much grinding required, yes, required. Not to mention there is virtually no story, in addition, the gear, exp, and skillpoint values in all the new content is really screwed up. They really didn't put the same level of effort in having everything balanced in the plus disk IMO. Still though, the game is so good it's still fun anyway. Plus the joinable characters are kinda unique.

I guess I'm the only person here who likes the plus disk content more than the original. Plus disk is much harder than the main game, but that doesn't mean the game is forcing you to grind (at least not until 30F, which is just silly). Rather, you're given a far smaller margin of error to work with. I'm finding that while I could get away with all sorts of sloppy play in the main game, I'm forced to research, formulate targeted strategies, and then execute them flawlessly for plus disk bosses (a great example would be the 21F joinable fight). The plus disk bosses really give a sense of accomplishment for beating them and feel more 'epic' to me.

Honestly, Tenshi isn't as good for me as people say she is. Yes she take 0 from a lot of attacks, but so does Meiling. Tenshi at her best is similar to cutting you down to 3 char slots but in return, some times a boss will waste a turn. My tenshi NEEDS that full buff to take 0s while my Meiling takes 0-1000 from most moves without a buff and since my Meiling is at the point where she has a little over 100k HP that amount of dmg taken is pathetic.

How is that possible? Meiling's MND is below average, and her DEF isn't stratospheric like Tenshi's. She'll be taking plenty of damage even at >50% DEF/MND.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 08:40:17 AM
Awlight. I have found and undone the final safelock. You know how? Thanks to good ol' Kanako telling me he discovered a glitch with the game's barriers. If you move onto one that spits you back and press a directional key at exactly the right time, you will turn that direction, and then be shot out the direction opposite of where you're facing. For example, if you move down onto a barrier and press up at the right time, you'll be spat out below the barrier. I used this to bypass the barrier and switch that motherfucker off! Sadly, no matter how much I tried, I could not glitch past the barrier that would lead me to Flandre.

It looks like I still need some leveling to defeat the Eientei trio anyway. Guess this means it's time to do that shit all over again, and find those butterflies of Tenshi's while raising the BP of Rumia, Chen, and Youmu. And you say Orin is now somewhere around these floors?

Maaaan, I'm going to be glad to be done with these three floors.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 08:42:09 AM
I guess I'm the only person here who likes the plus disk content more than the original. Plus disk is much harder than the main game, but that doesn't mean the game is forcing you to grind (at least not until 30F, which is just silly). Rather, you're given a far smaller margin of error to work with. I'm finding that while I could get away with all sorts of sloppy play in the main game, I'm forced to research, formulate targeted strategies, and then execute them flawlessly for plus disk bosses (a great example would be the 21F joinable fight). The plus disk bosses really give a sense of accomplishment for beating them and feel more 'epic' to me.

I don't agree at all, it DOES force you to grind. I'm sorry, but I'm not playing incorrectly when the said 21F joinable casts gigaflare and has undefendable damage greater than your tank's max hp. It's just says "level more dur", same with the baal avatar. The other 3 sigil bosses are pretty cool yes, but that's about it IMO. The other bosses are regular every day bosses with no challenge except the 20% health focus mode my next spell WILL kill you, it gets boring really fast when you've seen that for the 3rd time in a row.

I also remember really being excited seeing the items in the next 5 pages, but 3 of them are littered with crap that doesn't even hold a candle to pages 9 and 10, the rest may be good, but not necessarily.

I think the problem with the plus disk is that there is an overall lack of the feeling of progression. Each and every floor you traverse from 1-20 rewards you with new encounters that are more rewarding, filled with treasure that is progressively better, often giving you multiple new joinables after every floor. In the plus disk, a new joinable is a rare thing, 3 of them can be obtained without ever entering floor 21, so they don't even really feel like plus disk content. Not to mention there are only 2 pieces of music that are new. Hell, even the art for the enemies look kinda strange IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 08:46:58 AM
Awlight. I have found and undone the final safelock. You know how? Thanks to good ol' Kanako telling me he discovered a glitch with the game's barriers. If you move onto one that spits you back and press a directional key at exactly the right time, you will turn that direction, and then be shot out the direction opposite of where you're facing. For example, if you move down onto a barrier and press up at the right time, you'll be spat out below the barrier. I used this to bypass the barrier and switch that motherfucker off! Sadly, no matter how much I tried, I could not glitch past the barrier that would lead me to Flandre.

It looks like I still need some leveling to defeat the Eientei trio anyway. Guess this means it's time to do that shit all over again, and find those butterflies of Tenshi's while raising the BP of Rumia, Chen, and Youmu. And you say Orin is now somewhere around these floors?

Maaaan, I'm going to be glad to be done with these three floors.

You're the one who said you enjoyed it >=P. But yeah, those 3 are the longest feeling section of the game..Well, other than the brutal grinding needed for floor 30 in floor 27.

Orin has a few events in those floors, I don't remember if all 4 were there, or just some of them. I think it was 4 though. she doesn't actually join you yet though, that's later on. After beating the joinable in the floor that's full of squares, Orin should appear near the top right corner of that same square-floor, if she doesn't, you missed some events.

I don't remember if you said you have Sanae yet or not, but if not, go get her, that foe enemy should be cake now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 08:54:31 AM
I enjoyed it until I realized I missed a failsafe lock. It's the same thing that makes the Water Temple in OoT a scrappy level: If you do it all correctly, you never need to backtrack. If you mess up one small thing though, you have to redo everything you've done just to fix the one thing you made a mistake with.

My biggest problem is getting those BP for those three characters. I used Youmu for a while, but she was never on my front 4 much, same with Chen, and I ditched Rumia as soon as someone better came along. I never thought I'd ask this, but...is there an easy way to hack the game to give these characters more BP? I'm really not up to grinding on floor 1 for an hour or so to gain the necessary BP to recruit Yuyu, and I'd be surprised if I am tomorrow.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 09:05:18 AM
Cheat engine news.

Battle count address 00121FD0

Individual stats of characters are stored all over the place and will vary with everyone's game. But was is constant is the relative placing in memory. So far, found a character's tp, hp, sp and only Reimu's battle points counter. Here's how the spacing looks
Reimu's hp 01C129E8
Reimu's sp 01C129F0
Reimu's tp 01C129F8
Reimu's bp 01C12B9C
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 31, 2010, 09:08:39 AM
Don't set aside time to grind out their BP, just include it in any grinding you need for bosses.  If you have to sit around and dedicate grind time to up your stats, just swap out one of your front four for one of those three (or all of those three if they can handle it).

Or you can just wuss out and hack it.

Also, that barrier glitch explains something that happened to me before.  The game screwed up, I got stuck behind a barrier, and I had to rewalk the long path that is the path from 29F to 30F.  I was fairly pissed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 09:17:46 AM
Forgot to add: The address I've listed there is Reimu's current hp, sp and tp. Her max values of those stats are obv in the next address slot. The thing with trying to find bp is that you're pretty screwed unless you have a starting point like an address or rough estimate.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 09:21:57 AM
Hmm. Turns out I already have enough BP to trigger Rumia's event. Maybe this won't be so impossible after all. I'd better wait until I have enough BP to do Youmu's event before I go start the path to get Flandre though, because then I'd have to go through ALL THAT SWITCH SWITCHEROO AGAIN, and to get both Flan and Tenshi I'll have to do it at least two times more as it is.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jyazen on January 31, 2010, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: Jyazen
Just one minor question to the more experienced people:
Is there a limit to Element Affinity? I've been raising Affinity a lot (especially on the nearly no DEF/MND girls) and is now at 300-ish affinity on some, with it being 500-600-ish with items. Was just wondering if there's a max so I won't waste my preciousssss SP if it, say, maxes out at 500 or something.

No max, but at some point it becomes so expensive to raise them that it's simply impractical.

Okay, thanks. I was just wondering because the english wiki said 500 whereas the japanese wiki gives example till 400 only, so I was curious if there was an effective max to it that raising above won't do anything to the calculations.

I'm off to fight the v2s and then the boss rush  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 09:32:48 AM
Hmm. Turns out I already have enough BP to trigger Rumia's event. Maybe this won't be so impossible after all. I'd better wait until I have enough BP to do Youmu's event before I go start the path to get Flandre though, because then I'd have to go through ALL THAT SWITCH SWITCHEROO AGAIN, and to get both Flan and Tenshi I'll have to do it at least two times more as it is.

Yeah, I dumped Youmu really really early, but managed to snag enough bp for her somehow. The BP requirements for Orin's thing really isn't too bad.

The BP requirement to get kaggy on the other hand...ugh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 31, 2010, 09:39:34 AM
The BP requirement to get kaggy on the other hand...ugh.

There was a BP requirement for her?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on January 31, 2010, 09:42:58 AM
There was a BP requirement for her?

STFU >=P.

I had to run around for over 2 hours farming exp for sanae, Eirin, Mokou, and Reisen. I didn't like Mokou or Reisen at all, so they had none. Sanae was more for bosses than actual trash clearing, so she had none. And I didn't bother using Eirin either for my first game because I didn't notice the overhealing part of the her spell for some reason.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on January 31, 2010, 09:46:51 AM
BP is pretty easy to hack if you know how it works (ie you get one for being in the starting lineup of a battle and one for being in the finishing lineup - use Increased Value by).  I'm not a huge fan of Tenshi, my main gripe with her being that she doesn't really contribute anything besides soaking up damage (Meiling can heal herself and cure status effects on others, Remilia does respectable damage, Komachi has awesome debuffs) and maybe dispelling buffs with Sword of Rapture, but she is the best at completely nullifying attacks if you can get her to that point.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 09:48:10 AM
Yeah, I dumped Youmu really really early, but managed to snag enough bp for her somehow. The BP requirements for Orin's thing really isn't too bad.

The BP requirement to get kaggy on the other hand...ugh.

It won't be a problem once I figure out the address pattern.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on January 31, 2010, 09:51:37 AM
STFU >=P.

I had to run around for over 2 hours farming exp for sanae, Eirin, Mokou, and Reisen. I didn't like Mokou or Reisen at all, so they had none. Sanae was more for bosses than actual trash clearing, so she had none. And I didn't bother using Eirin either for my first game because I didn't notice the overhealing part of the her spell for some reason.

That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on January 31, 2010, 10:42:42 AM
That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.

Yes, she does. She needs 1000 BP between the 4 mentioned. Since only 3 of them are IN cast members, that probably means you dragged the fourth everywhere with you.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 31, 2010, 10:49:57 AM
That was an honest question.  I've never used any of the IN cast.  Ever.
Yet strangely, I love the entire cast that influences her joining and used most of them until floor 16 (dropping two, but still potentially swapping in either if the current boss requires their expertise), and yet she would STILL refuse to join me. ;.;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 12:11:44 PM
Adjustable details found:

Max and current values of tp, hp, sp
All stats. Note: These are final values, can't find the base yet.
All affinities
All resists
Char level and all stat levels
Recovery rate
Battle points
Sp costs for spells (!!)
Current exp pool

Any other details of a char that you guys still want?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 03:20:52 PM
If you want to get Kaguya as soon as you can (Aka while exploring 16F) then make sure to throw Reisen, Eirin, and Sanae into your party, even if you'll just dump them as soon as you can get Kaguya. Mokou, I'd only stick in if you actually want to keep her, because you get her a lot later then the earlier 3, and it's better not to waste a ton of skillpoints on characters you won't use if you can help it.

3 of them should do fine if you want her as soon as you can; just use them for the random battles while exploring, and do so as much as possible, especially if grinding. That way you should be able to get her slightly before/around the time you'll be able to beat her boss.

Or, pick whichever one you wouldn't mind having as your save character, and tell someone who knows how to hack to take advantage of this  :V
BP is pretty easy to hack if you know how it works (ie you get one for being in the starting lineup of a battle and one for being in the finishing lineup - use Increased Value by).

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on January 31, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
Just figured out some more numbers that can be messed around with. Each char's stat growth and level up difficulty can be adjusted.

Still no findings on base stats. But I did find a very far outlying address that is basically for display purposes when equipping a char or leveling them up. It shows what their new stat will look like. No Idea how to make use of it yet :/.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 08:47:15 PM
So, just to reiterate, to raise BP I have to have them in my front four during battle, not just in my 8 reserve? Eeeeeh...

Time to go grindin'.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 10:13:59 PM
Alright! I've finally gotten everything in this damn labyrinth except for Tenshi. Now to fight the Eientei trio.

/me comes back two minutes later on a crutch

:( I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first, but that is proving to be impossible.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on January 31, 2010, 10:17:39 PM
:( I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first
tea coffeespit.jpg

Honestly, I'm going to suggest that you go after Tenshi first. A hell of a lot easier.

Starting to hate
Orin
, mainly because of the annoyances which are the
Knights
.

Oh, and a recommended level range for
Flan
?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on January 31, 2010, 10:21:00 PM
I don't agree at all, it DOES force you to grind. I'm sorry, but I'm not playing incorrectly when the said 21F joinable casts gigaflare and has undefendable damage greater than your tank's max hp. It's just says "level more dur", same with the baal avatar. The other 3 sigil bosses are pretty cool yes, but that's about it IMO. The other bosses are regular every day bosses with no challenge except the 20% health focus mode my next spell WILL kill you, it gets boring really fast when you've seen that for the 3rd time in a row.

The trick with Giga Flare is that a) its MYS damage b) Utsuho always casts it right as she gets under 4 million hp. You can set up some high hp characters (I used Flan and Komachi) to take a hit from Giga Flare and unload on Utsuho so you only have to survive one casting. Here's the setup: Utsuho is right at the edge of 4 million hp, Utsuho has just used a spell with larger delay than "Uncontained Nuclear Reaction", I have three fast moving chars + Kanako on the front row. I want to swap in Kaggy, Flan, and Yukari in order to execute the following sequence:
Suiga -> BSB on Kanako -> Suiga -> Starbow -> Spriting Away -> Hourai Barrage -> Flan swaps in Komachi for Kaggy -> Suiga -> Giga Flare, Komachi and Flan survive -> Starbow -> Komachi swaps in Kaggy -> BSB on Flan or Hourai Barrage to win (some numbers: starting at +80% and going down, Suiga does 900-700k, Starbow and Hourai Barrage do 550-450k. I have Flan's MYS resist at >750).
I found the real problem to be Utsuho's speed, and UNR's low delay. It's a tough but doable challenge to juggle healing, buffing (defensive, offensive, and speed), and dps in order to chop off that 6 million hp between the first casting of UNR and Giga Flare. You need to do it quickly to reduce the chances that Utsuho will chain cast UNR and buff up her MAG to unwinnable levels. The fight is probably winnable at lvl 250 (as the jwiki suggests) but I waited until 260 and was able to do it fairly safely then. Given that I was ~250 after collecting and doing everything on 27F (while using maps to explore), I don't think this is an excessive amount of grind.

Regarding the three focus then kill bosses (Yuka, Shikieiki, and Kedamagrammaton), I found Yuka pretty challenging even before focus. She has some strong nukes and a powerful self-heal, after all. Still, I would agree with you that these aren't the most interesting plus disk bosses. Kedamagrammaton is a joke in any case, and Shiki's focus being random is ridiculous.

I think the problem with the plus disk is that there is an overall lack of the feeling of progression. Each and every floor you traverse from 1-20 rewards you with new encounters that are more rewarding, filled with treasure that is progressively better, often giving you multiple new joinables after every floor. In the plus disk, a new joinable is a rare thing, 3 of them can be obtained without ever entering floor 21, so they don't even really feel like plus disk content. Not to mention there are only 2 pieces of music that are new. Hell, even the art for the enemies look kinda strange IMO.

I would agree that wandering around in the plus disk (in fact, the postgame as a whole) often seems aimless. There's no real conclusion. It's basically just killing enemies in order to take on stronger enemies. I feel the fights are worth it, but many people would probably think otherwise.

Are you thinking about any enemies in particular (like perhaps the Giant Kedamas :P)?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 10:29:26 PM
:( I can tell I'm supposed to get rid of Kaguya first, but that is proving to be impossible.
Actually... if you kill Kaguya or Eirin, the other unlocks a mass nuke that will (And I mean WILL) 0hko your entire party. In my experience, Kaguya often doesn't use it for awhile while Eirin casts it instantly, but that may just be luck.

I've never seen Eirin not cast it instantly (and sometimes before Kaggy even dies), while I've had Kaguya go for 5 turns before she kicked the bucket, without casting it. And yes, I nearly had a heart attack at that point, because that entire time I had 4 characters with either bad damage or bad SP recovery, and no one had any SP left.

Reisen is HIGHLY vulnerable to PAR (Probably 100% chance to hit), while Eirin and Kaguya are fairly vulnerable to it. Reimu and Cirno's PAR attacks are very helpful. You may decide to take Reisen out first, but she isn't terribly annoying if your first slot is resistant to debuffs.

Group PAR attacks, Reimu's heal, DEF/MND buffs, and Royal Flare were all things I found to be incredibly important in this battle.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Reprosa on January 31, 2010, 10:59:09 PM
I found slotting suwako in was helpful too. Moriya's Iron Ring is decent damage and a much higher chance to land PAR than Evil Sealing Circle or... whatever the hell Cirno uses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on January 31, 2010, 11:04:25 PM
I found slotting suwako in was helpful too. Moriya's Iron Ring is decent damage and a much higher chance to land PAR than Evil Sealing Circle or... whatever the hell Cirno uses.
Actually, PAR attacks have the same chance to take effect; same with PSN. The PAR power simply dictates how long it will last. Suwako's is only single-target anyway, so it isn't as useful in this fight despite its massive PAR time, and it does bad damage against Reisen's high MYS affinity.

Still better then having Reisen get to attack; but Suwako probably won't last long in this fight with her fragile nature anyway. Her nuke is still quite helpful as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on January 31, 2010, 11:12:42 PM
Actually... if you kill Kaguya or Eirin, the other unlocks a mass nuke that will (And I mean WILL) 0hko your entire party. In my experience, Kaguya often doesn't use it for awhile while Eirin casts it instantly, but that may just be luck.
My experience was the other way around, taking me by total surprise. Heck, my victory surprised me so much I used the largest font the forum could allow just to express it.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on January 31, 2010, 11:22:34 PM
Beat Tenshi my first try. She wasn't so tough once I figured out her gimmick. Taking a break for now (been playing all day), but next time I will devote some time to seeing if I'm capable of beating the Eienteis yet. My average level is 48-52 BTW.

EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 12:55:06 AM
stuff

All that assumes you looked at the wiki, and are counting how much damage you have dealt to the boss. That's not exactly something I like doing, then I feel like some guide is playing the game instead of me >=P. Using that strat, it's basically a focus-enrage nuke boss without the focus yet again.

Anyway, if anybody trips across some info or whatever that shows you enemy def/mnd values let me know please. Figuring out def isn't so hard, but it's slow. mnd is a bit more difficult since there is no "attack" command that uses mag/mnd.

Any math heads able to tell me how to calculate level difference between characters? For example the wiki says reimu has a level modifier of 0.9, and Remilia is something like 1.32 or something. But the actual difference in level between the two isn't nearly so vast because those multipliers aren't accurate for their current level, just equal levels (and they wont be equal for long). I hope that makes sense.

The speed formula is also a bit more complicated than I initially suspected. It seems that someone with 2X the speed growth as someone else only goes about 40% faster at high levels (high levels being where your slowest person has at least 200 speed, things are quite different before 200), and it stays at roughly (within 4% or so) 40% for pretty much the entire game (I mean plus disk included). Kinda makes me wonder if pumping speed up on a fast character is really any better than doing it on a slow character, because despite getting more points to the stat, each point is worth less due to the really wonky formula speed goes thru to convert into actual action bar time.

Why the fuck did I let my counselor talk me out of taking math 12. whyyyy, physics more useful my ass.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 01, 2010, 01:00:15 AM
EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?
Protip:

...you're not supposed to be able to survive "Astrololical Entombing" and / or "Hourai Jewel / Barrage / Whatever" at that point. You're to try and beat the battle without seeing it in essence.

Also, a pretty terrible
Orin
battle; 6 people KO'd. Oh well, a win's a win.

Wonder if
Flan
is possible yet?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 01, 2010, 01:04:51 AM
EDIT: Heh. After pooling all my attacks onto Kaguya, I beat her. Then Astronomical Entombing came and decimated Patchy. Maybe I do have no choice but to grind some more...?
Grinding is hardly necissary for the fight, but you will need to keep track of your damage done in order to avoid having to deal with one of the nuking moves, as well as have a good strategy down for keeping your party buffed and healed (note that you'll want as much MND and MDef-buffers available, since pretty much everything they throw at your is magic-based).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 01:32:56 AM
You say I don't have to grind, but for some reason I don't believe you. :[ It's not so much an issue of me being destroyed by Kaguya/Eirin once the other dies, it's the fact that I can barely take ONE of them down before I completely die. And how am I supposed to keep Kaguya and Eirin at the same health when Eirin keeps healing Kaguya? T_T

My grinding agenda, despite how long it takes, only raises everyone one level each time I do it. What are the recommended levels I be at again?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 01:41:39 AM
It just occured to me that nobody can answer my level question without first knowing the formula used between level ups. I'm not good at writing such formulas myself but I can see a pattern. I used Yukari to level because she was still at level 1 on my save and because her first level up to level 2 costs exactly 100 exp.

level2: 100,level 3: 201, 336, 504, 705, 940, 1209, 1512, 1848, 2217, etc.

Seems like level 3 and 4 are out of place slightly. But every other level seems to cost the same as the previous level +34..or 33.something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 01:43:55 AM
And how am I supposed to keep Kaguya and Eirin at the same health when Eirin keeps healing Kaguya? T_T
They have vastly different HP values and defensive stats, for one. Also, you might be okay even if one gets a turn or two off after the other kicks the bucket... if you're lucky.

But you'll need to have buffs, healing, and strong multi-hit attacks. Group PAR attacks also help. Keep in mind that if more then 3 debuffs total are on the boss group, Kaguya will use a big bad group buff on the Eientei Team, so don't try debuffing them.

I pumped Patchy's MAG and MND a good bit to help prep for this battle, since she'll be nearly invulnerable to everything that will hit her other then the meganukes, and since Royal Flare is AWESOME for this battle.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 01:46:05 AM
I dunno, Dragon Necklace seems to pierce Patchy's defenses quite handily. :\ Otherwise yeah, she's pretty much a wall here.

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 01:51:32 AM
I dunno, Dragon Necklace seems to pierce Patchy's defenses quite handily. :\ Otherwise yeah, she's pretty much a wall here.

By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

I'm not sure, but I doubt it since Kaggy is pretty much god with overall affinity stats as a playable character. I rekon spirit is the most likely candidate, I really don't think any of them are weak to it though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 01:52:34 AM
By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?
Bosses usually go off of the character affinity. Checking the wiki, the most significant thing is Reisen being weak against SPI attacks. I do believe I remember Ran's SPI attack doing heavy damage to Reisen.

Anyone remember the HP values for boss Eirin and Kaguya? Opening two windows calculators and keeping accurate track of their HP is a good way to make the fight easier, when you have trouble.

EDIT:Nifty wiki is nifty! http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_12F
HP values for joo~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 01:54:33 AM
Bosses usually go off of the character affinity. Checking the wiki, the most significant thing is Reisen being weak against SPI attacks. I do believe I remember Ran's SPI attack doing heavy damage to Reisen.

Anyone remember the HP values for boss Eirin and Kaguya? Opening two windows calculators and keeping accurate track of their HP is a good way to make the fight easier, when you have trouble.

I think it was 120,000 for kaggy and 240,000 for Eirin.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 01, 2010, 01:57:28 AM
The speed formula is also a bit more complicated than I initially suspected. It seems that someone with 2X the speed growth as someone else only goes about 40% faster at high levels (high levels being where your slowest person has at least 200 speed, things are quite different before 200), and it stays at roughly (within 4% or so) 40% for pretty much the entire game (I mean plus disk included). Kinda makes me wonder if pumping speed up on a fast character is really any better than doing it on a slow character, because despite getting more points to the stat, each point is worth less due to the really wonky formula speed goes thru to convert into actual action bar time.

Deranged translated some information regarding this earlier in the thread. From the data provided one can derive the formula (1/2+(2*SPD/100-7/4)^1/2)*100=+Active Gauge per clock tick. You need >=10,000 active gauge points to get a turn.

EDIT: Formula fixed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 02:04:28 AM
Deranged translated some information regarding this earlier in the thread. From the data provided one can derive the formula (1+(SPD/100)^1/2)*100=+Active Gauge per clock tick. You need >=10,000 active gauge points to get a turn.

Yeah I know that's what I used to figure out the 40% thing, thanks anyway. I mean using that formula, someone with double the speed growth as someone else always hovers at being 40% faster, which I find to be interesting.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 01, 2010, 02:05:24 AM
By any chance, are any of the three weak to a certain affinity?

Leftmost: FIR, MYS
Center: NTR, WND
Rightmost: SPI
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 02:24:40 AM
Mmm... :S

What I don't like is how dependent this is on paralyzing working consistently. I got extremely lucky this time and was constantly paralyzing all three of them, defeated Eirin, but didn't kill Kaguya fast enough.

Thanks for the affinity weaknesses BTW. That helped a lot.








...Huh. I won. :V I completely wiped the floor with them this time. I didn't even lose anyone. Amazing.

WELP. Onto floor 13...at last. Also holy crap plot.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 02:39:22 AM
...Huh. I won. :V I completely wiped the floor with them this time. Amazing.

WELP. Onto floor 13...at last.
Yay!

Make sure to use Eirin and Reisen for now, even if you don't like them, if you want to have access to Kaguya as soon as possible. You'll need lots (and I mean LOTS) of BP for Eirin/Reisen/Sanae/Mokou combined.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 02:40:51 AM
'Kay. Just one final reiteration...do they HAVE to be in my front 4 to get BP? Because if they don't, I'll be saved a lot of frustration.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Rikter on February 01, 2010, 02:49:49 AM
Should I take out Youmu or her Ghost Half first when I have to fight her?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 02:51:13 AM
'Kay. Just one final reiteration...do they HAVE to be in my front 4 to get BP? Because if they don't, I'll be saved a lot of frustration.
I heard someone you get 1 point if they're in the back row. But I don't know if that is true, and that still only means half as many as front row; and you need 1000 total points between Sanae/Eirin/Reisen/Mokou. Kaguya is avaliable after hitting 16F and 1k points, so... you'll have to use them front row a lot if you want her soon.

At least Sanae is great and Reisen is good for 16F boss.


And, Ghost Half first.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 02:57:11 AM
HMM...I have a better idea. :yukkuri:

/me goes to grind on floor 1

I'd much rather take the time to just do it all in one sitting rather than hold my team back by using someone like Reisen. I'll just do this a few times, and...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 02:58:31 AM
HMM...I have a better idea. :yukkuri:

/me goes to grind on floor 1

I'd much rather take the time to just do it all in one sitting rather than hold my team back by using someone like Reisen. I'll just do this a few times, and...
If your gonna do that, I'd wait till you get Mokou. 2 more points per battle will shave a LOT of time from the grinding. Also, since you're already using Sanae (right?) just try to include her in lots of the random battles.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 03:13:37 AM
Indeed I am using Sanae. All I had to do was put some buffing into her speed, attach an accelerator module (wow, who would have thought you'd get one of these in a random battle?), and she's one of the faster members of my team to compensate for the delay. And yes I've been keeping her in random battles. ;D

In case you're interested, here is my current lineup:

Reimu
Marisa
Cirno
Alice
Meiling
Patchouli
Eirin (just replaced Tenshi, who seems to be more useful for bosses than random battles)
Ran
Sanae
Suwako
Komachi
Yugi

Well, just upped my BP by like 70 or so, time to head on to new territory. o/
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 04:04:19 AM
I'm curious, I notice that when I want to launch the game using applocal, I get an hourglass cursor for like.. FREAKING FOREVER.. with this and only this game, anybody else get this?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 04:09:47 AM
I'm curious, I notice that when I want to launch the game using applocal, I get an hourglass cursor for like.. FREAKING FOREVER.. with this and only this game, anybody else get this?
I've heard of other people opening the game with applocale, and I personally have Japanese as a secondary language on my computer which works just as well. Its really nice, because that way the game uses the really pretty font that it comes with instead of the other skinny crap it comes with.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 06:44:45 AM
It just occured to me that nobody can answer my level question without first knowing the formula used between level ups. I'm not good at writing such formulas myself but I can see a pattern. I used Yukari to level because she was still at level 1 on my save and because her first level up to level 2 costs exactly 100 exp.

level2: 100,level 3: 201, 336, 504, 705, 940, 1209, 1512, 1848, 2217, etc.

Seems like level 3 and 4 are out of place slightly. But every other level seems to cost the same as the previous level +34..or 33.something.

How about this: Hack a char's level up rating. Adjust it for a whole bunch of values and see what it does to their exp required to level up. I did one test with Reimu only. Adjusting her level up rating from 90 to 9 changed her exp required from 64 to 6. The ratings probably are in direct proportion to the exp required, but the exp amount you need should still be graphed for a better idea.

On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 01, 2010, 07:36:07 AM
Quote
Twinked/hacked saves! Who needs what sort? Send your requests here

Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

Donut, for your party selection I see that you use Yuugi. I have to ask, is she any good for you?

Quote
At what levels are we talking about and how many skillpoints are invested in each girl and their defenses

Well right now there is a minor level difference, caused by their level rates, and the fact that Meiling has never left my main 12 and Tenshi only got put in the main 12... twice? The 1st time I used Tenshi, she had the same DEF and MND Skp levels as Meiling... I think it was 30 or sumthin like that, I forget the exact number. At that point Tenshi was hitting for more then 0s but Meiling was hitting harder. I also had Level Bonus's put into Meilings ATK and HP as well as DEF and MND while for Tenshi, Pure DEF and MND.

I fought Utsuho recently and floored her so hard, Kanako probly felt it xD Utsuho used Giga Flare on me, and I said "oh crud, this may hurt a bit" then I see the top damage was around 25k to either Remi or Meiling and the lowest was like 11k to I think... either Reimu, Yukari or Patchy... Please note that Meiling and Remi had over 110k Max HP or so at the time
Similarly, Shikieiki/Sikieiki/Eiki only got 2 or 3 turns before she was beaten into the floor so hard their was a crater xD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 07:36:31 AM
How about this: Hack a char's level up rating. Adjust it for a whole bunch of values and see what it does to their exp required to level up. I did one test with Reimu only. Adjusting her level up rating from 90 to 9 changed her exp required from 64 to 6. The ratings probably are in direct proportion to the exp required, but the exp amount you need should still be graphed for a better idea.
Err? Yeah I imagine that would be the case. I'm not stumped by the actual level up formula, which is, as I said (excluding the first 2 levels) something to the effect of: L+=L+33.something. I'm not 100% accurate with it because that's not my biggest concern. I'm not even sure how to describe what it is I need better than I already did >=(

Quote
On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?
Well, speed and sp are wonky. But the rest is a simple 1:1 conversion per level, Just bear in mind that they will be thrown off from skill levels, level up bonus stat thingies, equipment, etc. I assume speed is weird because it actually represents 0.0X or whatever, and maybe SP is 0.X.
But I'm not sure if that's what you mean cuz I imagine you already knew that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 07:40:15 AM
Quote
Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

Delivery in about 10 hours or less.

Quote
Well, speed and sp are wonky. But the rest is a simple 1:1 conversion per level, Just bear in mind that they will be thrown off from skill levels, level up bonus stat thingies, equipment, etc. I assume speed is weird because it actually represents 0.0X or whatever, and maybe SP is 0.X.
But I'm not sure if that's what you mean cuz I imagine you already knew that.

Reimu's att growth is 8, so she gains 8 att per levelup? Something liek that?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 01, 2010, 07:56:50 AM
On the same note, anyone tell me how the stat growth numbers are applied?

From Pooshlmer (and ultimately from some pastebin document that is no longer available):
HP = ((Lvl+6)*Growth Rate + 12) * HP multiplier
SP = ((Lvl/8)*Growth Rate + 100) * SP multiplier
Spd = ((Lvl/32)*Growth Rate) * Spd multiplier + 100
Eva = ((Lvl/12)*Growth Rate + 2) * Eva multiplier
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl/4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier

You should check to make sure these formulas are accurate.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 08:03:10 AM
Cheat Engine won't track decimals for stats. The various multipliers should be around somewhere in the documentation hopefully.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 01, 2010, 08:25:00 AM
Ouch.  Finally got around to finishing the 16F puzzle after not playing for a couple of days, decided to see how hard
Yukari
was, and
Tenshi
gets one shotted with State of Enlightment in effect.  I can tell this is going to be fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 08:33:22 AM
From Pooshlmer (and ultimately from some pastebin document that is no longer available):
HP = ((Lvl+6)*Growth Rate + 12) * HP multiplier
SP = ((Lvl/8)*Growth Rate + 100) * SP multiplier
Spd = ((Lvl/32)*Growth Rate) * Spd multiplier + 100
Eva = ((Lvl/12)*Growth Rate + 2) * Eva multiplier
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl/4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier

You should check to make sure these formulas are accurate.
I'm not really sure how accurate the formulas are for hp, spd, eva, spd. But I can tell you that's not it for atk/def/mag/mnd. Seems to be a 1:1 ratio from what I can tell.

Quote
Reimu's att growth is 8, so she gains 8 att per levelup? Something liek that?
yes. Or so it appears from my end. Wriggle at level 1 gets 10 atk at level 2 without any gear or skillpoints or whatever, same with mnd and all that. Well actually I noticed that in the case of Iku's mag, she got 1 more than the wiki said, possibly she was just buffed since a patch or something. But that seems likely given I rarely hear people compliment her in the game, and it certainly isn't growing at 1/4 like that formula would suggest.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 01, 2010, 08:50:30 AM
Yukari
or
Flan
or even that last Sigil Guardian sitting around on 15F.

Chances are, I'm underlevelled with Reimu Lv72  :V
Well, my gut instinct says that I should be able to take on the second of the three listed first, then the Sigil Guardian and finally... ...

Might consider a grind... for the sake of getting BP to get a certain character which I might not bother using.

Either way, progress.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 01, 2010, 09:23:31 AM
I'm not really sure how accurate the formulas are for hp, spd, eva, spd. But I can tell you that's not it for atk/def/mag/mnd. Seems to be a 1:1 ratio from what I can tell.

Ok, the nameless fairy in question made a typo: it's actually Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier + constant [the constant being character dependent]. I checked this formula for Atk and it's accurate.

The relevant info is all here: http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/19.html .
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 09:47:11 AM
Ok, the nameless fairy in question made a typo: it's actually Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate) * corresponding multiplier + constant [the constant being character dependent]. I checked this formula for Atk and it's accurate.

The relevant info is all here: http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/19.html .

Yeah that's better.. the Lvl+4 and the constant are just values that contribute to their starting value, none of them change on a level basis, so per level up, all you really get is the level*growth rate.. the multiplier is gear, skillpoint level, level up bonus stats, etc.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on February 01, 2010, 09:56:26 AM
Could I request the address/line of stuff that is needed to give me more Gold Cloth? Right now, it seems to be the best piece of equipment overall.

00122168

I'm thinking of making a Cht file that has all the equipment, SP/EXP gains, and the encounter rate(thanks Pesco!) all in one to save time if people are interested.


Edit: All done, though for some reason when I try to get the address for the EXP gained after battle it doesn't work. However now all 15 pages of items have been saved in my CHT file, including the SP gained after battle as well as the encounter rate. Maybe I should put it in my sig as a download for those who want it. Up to you guys really.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 01, 2010, 11:08:41 AM
Yeah that's better.. the Lvl+4 and the constant are just values that contribute to their starting value, none of them change on a level basis, so per level up, all you really get is the level*growth rate.. the multiplier is gear, skillpoint level, level up bonus stats, etc.

It is worth noting that stat growths on level up in this game are almost entirely level-based quadratic.

This is why level is the God Stat, literally.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 11:36:37 AM
Idea for testing: Do you gain more, spending say a million exp, leveling up a char from 1 -> 2 repeatedly or leveling normally?

(http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4492/leveltest.png)

First one (lvl 24) was repeating lvl 1 -> 2 for 23 times
Second one (lvl 7) was normal leveling 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7
Third one (lvl 11) was lvl 1 hacked into lvl 10 -> 11

Spending roughly the same amount of exp, making a single higher, levelup is more beneficial.

Edit: Here's a handy formula for anyone wanting to screw around with the characters themselves.

Battle points address - char level address = 1C8

Max hp address - char level address = 10

Spell 1 sp cost address - char level address = 160

These are hex values. Run a search for a char's hp, you always get at least 2 addresses. The first address will be the max, the second is their current. Use the info above and off you go.

Treat the char's level address as you starting point, here's what all the numbers are in sequence:

Level
Exp pool
Level up rating
recovery rate
max hp
current hp
max sp
current sp
max tp
current tp
Att
Def
Mag
Mnd
Spd
Eva
Att growth
Def growth
Mag growth
Mnd growth
Spd growth
Eva growth
Att multiplier
Def multiplier
Mag multiplier
Mnd multiplier
Spd multiplier
Eva multiplier
Fir aff
Cld aff
Wnd aff
Ntr aff
Mys aff
Spi aff
Psn res
Par res
Mut res
Dth res
Debuff res
hp level
sp level
tp level
Att level
Def level
Mag level
Mnd level
Spd level
Eva level
Fir level
Cld level
Wnd level
Ntr level
Mys level
Spi level
(huge address gap)
spell 1 sp cost
spell 2 sp cost
spell 3 sp cost
spell 4 sp cost
spell 5 sp cost
(huge address gap)
battle points
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 01, 2010, 03:09:50 PM
I won't say anything about the gimmick of floor 13 since I'm just getting started, but I CAN say that the enemies on this floor are way too strong! D: Those swords can one shot even my tanks if they target the same person twice.

Oh well, I'm just glad to be in somewhere new, and to have comfort in knowing I'm not going to be stopped up again until floor 16.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 01, 2010, 03:48:24 PM
Quote
Idea for testing: Do you gain more, spending say a million exp, leveling up a char from 1 -> 2 repeatedly or leveling normally?

........What?

Aside from the impossibility of your initial request for non-hacked play, the only actual question involved is "Does it reset your statistical value"?  Which I think it does given that everything is strictly formulaic based on your current level, but I don't know.  If it resets your statistical value, then no, you need to level up normally.  Otherwise, you would gain more on the sheer basis that your levelups would cost far less, so you'd get more of them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 04:44:43 PM
Yukari
or
Flan
or even that last Sigil Guardian sitting around on 15F.

Chances are, I'm underlevelled with Reimu Lv72  :V
Well, my gut instinct says that I should be able to take on the second of the three listed first, then the Sigil Guardian and finally... ...

Might consider a grind... for the sake of getting BP to get a certain character which I might not bother using.

Either way, progress.

At this point, you should be able to beat Lily Sigil and maybe
Kaguya's Foe. Flandre, you should win around lv75~80. Yukari... that heavily depends on your party, but its around lv75~85. You'll beat Flan first.


I'd take out Lily Sigil if you can, and then explore all of 16F; Lily Sigil warps on 16F lead to great treasures. If you can't handle 16F battles very well, you might consider grinding on 15F, which gives basically the same EXP and SKP if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 05:26:34 PM
........What?

Aside from the impossibility of your initial request for non-hacked play, the only actual question involved is "Does it reset your statistical value"?  Which I think it does given that everything is strictly formulaic based on your current level, but I don't know.  If it resets your statistical value, then no, you need to level up normally.  Otherwise, you would gain more on the sheer basis that your levelups would cost far less, so you'd get more of them.

Screenshot above with my results. Repeated leveling done by keeping the char level constant in CE resulted in no stat gains at all except for where you put the levelup bonus. I had to level up and readjust the char level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 01, 2010, 05:35:54 PM
I won't say anything about the gimmick of floor 13 since I'm just getting started, but I CAN say that the enemies on this floor are way too strong! D: Those swords can one shot even my tanks if they target the same person twice.
Aquabitch's Illusion Waterfall made mincemeat out of all of them for me. It seems they, as a whole, have lower DEF than MND (or are just that weak to CLD, but I kinda doubt it), so if you have something that deals heavy damage to enemies with low defense that should be effective.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 01, 2010, 07:17:11 PM
Aquabitch's Illusion Waterfall made mincemeat out of all of them for me. It seems they, as a whole, have lower DEF than MND (or are just that weak to CLD, but I kinda doubt it), so if you have something that deals heavy damage to enemies with low defense that should be effective.

I remember the evil swordfish of doom. Killing them isn't a problem, it's not getting killed by them first because unless you are overlevel, they move first.

edit: Still no response about the level up dillema I have for my theorycrafting project. I posted for help somewhere else. No luck there. However I came up with a brainstorm.

I don't know math but I know programming. So.. If it's somehow possible to translate programming language math into real life plain old calculator math I'd appreciate it.. Here goes (note the spaces weren't showing, hence the ----s), (also note 72 is the amount of experience required (derived from yukari's level up cost of 100 and 201 for her first two levels divided by her 1.4 multiplier) to reach level 2 and 3, whereas every level past that seem to have a recognizeable pattern).

Level up formula(modifier,experience value) =
int Final level(1)
while(experience value > 0)
--while(Final level < 4)
----experience value = experience value - 72 * modifier
------if(experience value >= 0)
--------Final level++
--experience value = experience value - 24 * modifier
--if(experience value >= 0)
----Final level++
return Final level ;

Edit: Should I post this in rika's garage or something? I rekon there might be a greater chance of attracting a math head in there, but I don't know if asking for help regarding formulas for wiki info is considered on-topic for that forum.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 01, 2010, 09:00:41 PM
I remember the evil swordfish of doom. Killing them isn't a problem, it's not getting killed by them first because unless you are overlevel, they move first.
Chen with some speed-boosting equipment should be able to do it. Just have to be sure that she uses her ATK buff before doing so, as if memory serves that floor is where she starts needing it for even random encounters. I'm assuming Aya can do the same, as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 01, 2010, 09:08:30 PM
Yukari... that heavily depends on your party, but its around lv75~85.

I will get it down at Lv ~75, even if it kills me in the process. Might have to consider formulating a general plan first though. I know what some of the attacks are like at least.

I won't say anything about the gimmick of floor 13 since I'm just getting started, but I CAN say that the enemies on this floor are way too strong! D: Those swords can one shot even my tanks if they target the same person twice.
Chen with some speed-boosting equipment should be able to do it. Just have to be sure that she uses her ATK buff before doing so, as if memory serves that floor is where she starts needing it for even random encounters. I'm assuming Aya can do the same, as well.
Alternatively, speed up your team already. Marisa's Speed growth is great; so investing Skill Points into SPD for that little extra kick is a good idea, and pays off in the future.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 01, 2010, 10:19:33 PM
Just started playing this, and so far it seems pretty fun. I just finished up exploration of floor 1, and while Chen absolutely destroyed me both of the times I tried fighting her (taking out Reimu before I even get a chance to move is not very nice :(), I managed to defeat Meiling on my first try with minimal casualties (read: Marisa). I still haven't really gotten the hang of when to switch my party members around and who to give bonuses in what stat, but I guess that comes with time...

(And I assume that those two seal thingies aren't supposed to be fought until much later?)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 01, 2010, 10:23:01 PM
Just started playing this, and so far it seems pretty fun. I just finished up exploration of floor 1, and while Chen absolutely destroyed me both of the times I tried fighting her (taking out Reimu before I even get a chance to move is not very nice :(), I managed to defeat Meiling on my first try with minimal casualties (read: Marisa). I still haven't really gotten the hang of when to switch my party members around and who to give bonuses in what stat, but I guess that comes with time...

(And I assume that those two seal thingies aren't supposed to be fought until much later?)

Break the seals anyway for lulz
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 01, 2010, 11:10:56 PM
request for level up formula

The formula is the following:
ExpToLevel[level,mult]=(72*level+(level-1)(level-2)*12)*mult

Here "level" is your current level, i.e. ExpToLevel(n,m) gives the exp it takes to get to level n+1 from level n with a multiplier m. Multipliers are listed on the wiki (or you could just compute them by looking at values ingame).

The total exp needed to get to level n+1 from 1 would then be:
TotalExpToLevel[n,mult]=4(n^3+6*n^2+11*n)*mult

Yeah that's better.. the Lvl+4 and the constant are just values that contribute to their starting value, none of them change on a level basis, so per level up, all you really get is the level*growth rate.. the multiplier is gear, skillpoint level, level up bonus stats, etc.

Each level up also gives a +2% bonus to the Atk/Mag/Def/Mnd multiplier, and a +3% bonus to the HP multiplier.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on February 01, 2010, 11:39:41 PM
Well new game+ was fun, I managed to finish in 10 hours as opposed to 100 the first time.
Also, what bugs have been found in the 2.06 version? I switched to 2.06 every time I went through an event to recruit a character, and everything worked fine as far as I could tell. Anyone else doing new game+ should be able to do the same so as to not have their characters' stats get reset like I did in the beginning >:(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 01, 2010, 11:47:06 PM
Well new game+ was fun, I managed to finish in 10 hours as opposed to 100 the first time.
Also, what bugs have been found in the 2.06 version? I switched to 2.06 every time I went through an event to recruit a character, and everything worked fine as far as I could tell. Anyone else doing new game+ should be able to do the same so as to not have their characters' stats get reset like I did in the beginning >:(
I believe it was something about EXP/SKP, oh, and items disappearing from your inventory. Its very hard to tell with FAIL google translator.

I might do New Game+ and only start with all characters unlocked, and use that to make a challenging, yet interesting party. For example, with a certain Plus Disk characters -100% debuffs and +75% party buffs, it might be feasible to use a pretty subpar party character-wise and have to do bosses fairly differently and use characters in ways they were not meant for. Which is awesome  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on February 02, 2010, 12:14:26 AM
I believe it was something about EXP/SKP, oh, and items disappearing from your inventory. Its very hard to tell with FAIL google translator.

I might do New Game+ and only start with all characters unlocked, and use that to make a challenging, yet interesting party. For example, with a certain Plus Disk characters -100% debuffs and +75% party buffs, it might be feasible to use a pretty subpar party character-wise and have to do bosses fairly differently and use characters in ways they were not meant for. Which is awesome  :V

Haha. Well, I think starting with all my items and skill points again helped a lot, but it was probably the fact that I knew where everything was and where to go that got me through the game so much quicker.
Not having to grind at all, though, was very nice :V

Edit: I forgot to mention a while ago, anyone doing new game+ and wants their items to carry over MUST unequip EVERYTHING from all characters, or else it won't be transferred.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Demonic_Sausage on February 02, 2010, 01:07:49 AM
Quick question...
How do you install the nice fonts into the game instead of playing with that skinny font?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 01:18:05 AM
Quick question...
How do you install the nice fonts into the game instead of playing with that skinny font?
Either run the game in applocale, OR

Go to control panel, open Regional and Language Options, and find the setting for Non-Unicode Programs (which you set to Japanese). Its in the third tab, I believe. Then the game will use the pretty font.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Demonic_Sausage on February 02, 2010, 01:33:32 AM
Either run the game in applocale, OR

Go to control panel, open Regional and Language Options, and find the setting for Non-Unicode Programs (which you set to Japanese). Its in the third tab, I believe. Then the game will use the pretty font.

Cool it worked :)
Thanks for the help
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 02, 2010, 02:15:18 AM
I've always had the skinny font using applocale, and switching the non-unicode language just causes my game to crash as the title screen loads. >_>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 02:16:50 AM
I've always had the skinny font using applocale, and switching the non-unicode language just causes my game to crash as the title screen loads. >_>
Maybe you don't have the pretty font installed >:

If you go in notepad or something and go to font select, is there a HGP, HGS, and HG font with lots of japanese letters after them?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 02, 2010, 03:45:04 AM
Maybe you don't have the pretty font installed >:

If you go in notepad or something and go to font select, is there a HGP, HGS, and HG font with lots of japanese letters after them?

As a matter of fact I don't. Looking into installing now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 02, 2010, 03:55:48 AM
The formula is the following:
ExpToLevel[level,mult]=(72*level+(level-1)(level-2)*12)*mult

*tests and checks*....THATS IT! zomg you're a lifesaver,

Quote
Here "level" is your current level, i.e. ExpToLevel(n,m) gives the exp it takes to get to level n+1 from level n with a multiplier m. Multipliers are listed on the wiki (or you could just compute them by looking at values ingame).

The total exp needed to get to level n+1 from 1 would then be:
TotalExpToLevel[n,mult]=4(n^3+6*n^2+11*n)*mult

*checks*
uhhh, assuming level 5:
4(125+6*25+11*5) = 1320.
Right on, that works too!
Thanks a ton, BTW, what education level of math is that in your opinion btw. Not using the formula, but whatever you did to figure it out, or did you just find it somewhere. I guessed math 12 but I'm not sure.

Quote
Each level up also gives a +2% bonus to the Atk/Mag/Def/Mnd multiplier, and a +3% bonus to the HP multiplier.

REALLY!? I totally didn't know that. *checks*
I'm noticing something more like 3.something%....But everything else is accurate so it must be something I failed to notice/understand regarding other influences to the multiplier....

THANKS A TON though, not only did you save me alot of time trying to figure that crap out (as if I ever would), but also saved me from working on innacurate data in regards to hidden bonuses to the multiplier.

I'm going to re-read the data people posted previously, see if I misunderstood/didn't notice something in regards to the multiplier, I thought it was only the player chosen skillpoints/level up bonus/equipment stuff.

edit:
Lawl at Nintendonut's new avatar. First time I saw Yukari's portrait, I felt violated religiously. Touhou characters aren't supposed to dress like that!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 02, 2010, 03:59:38 AM
Kaguya's Foe
was p cool (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=378&u=12803292). Same process as the other ones. I could've gone on indefinitely. Only decided to use 6 people (that is, I never touched my other 6); 5 of the 6 that I used could take that attack, and I constantly swapped one in and out for quicker SP regen because I was spamming attack buffs (which proved to do be doing pretty much nothing but boost my healing for that battle; lol).

I only used Shackles and Chen to attack. Shackles was more or less just for the occasional PAR. It still did 10k though. 6-(wo)man team consisted of Reimu, Meiling, Chen, Minoriko, Yuugi, and Ran. Still haven't raised Fire Affinity yet as well, if that matters
. Fairly slow process but hey, it works. And of course, I essentially used the same tactics for the previous 2. Guess that's why I could do the second Foe without even getting extra Lvs  :V

I probably could've done this in my with Reimu in the mid 60s. Though, it would be cutting it close, considering my current Skill Point distribution.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 02, 2010, 04:52:01 AM
Yuyuko is hard as hell. God dammit. I think I kinda got halfway. Koi3s does wonders but Yuyuko destroys Yuugi with every attack ever. >_>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 02, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
Not one to fall behind Kanako (even though he'll probably beat it before me, but whatever), I'm too on floor 14 after using the wiki to get around that hateful floor 13 (it wasn't even the teleportation, it was the high encounter rate and the lack of the feeling of progress you usually get with this game). I missed a couple items and both skill point chests, but I got the most important ones. Yuyuko is XP.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 02, 2010, 06:34:45 AM
Quote
First time I saw Yukari's portrait, I felt violated religiously. Touhou characters aren't supposed to dress like that!
^
Though it's more just the art looking weird than the outfit.


In other news, I found a simple way to get an accurate (within 1-2%, anyways) reading on the missing delays - it's possible to give two characters the same speed and control which one goes first (leftmost character) so the gauge stops moving right after you use the desired attack, put the mouse on the exact position the gauge stops at, and then swap the equal-speed characters and compare it to the data that's already on the wiki.  A bit crude and probably thought of before, but it's pretty useful.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 02, 2010, 08:16:54 AM
Random question: I know evade doesn't work for you, but does evade play a factor with the enemy? Or is the whole "accuracy" thing completely meaningless as well?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Krimmydoodle on February 02, 2010, 08:19:41 AM
Completely meaningless.  You may have noticed some attacks stating in their descriptions that they might suck due to accuracy issues (Earthlight Ray comes to mind), but everything will always hit, so it doesn't mean anything.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 02, 2010, 08:21:55 AM
Play v1.03 if you don't mind the crucial Master Spark missing the boss.

I'm gonna look over char details again and see if delay info can be hacked.

Edit: Good news Ghaleon! The 15 addresses after char stat levels are the level up ratings for the stats. I think they are percentage representations.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 02:50:59 PM
Not one to fall behind Kanako (even though he'll probably beat it before me, but whatever), I'm too on floor 14 after using the wiki to get around that hateful floor 13 (it wasn't even the teleportation, it was the high encounter rate and the lack of the feeling of progress you usually get with this game). I missed a couple items and both skill point chests, but I got the most important ones. Yuyuko is XP.
The useful items in there are Shuten-Doujin's Bangle or something, Lion King Soul, Ribbon, Holy Win, and Omoikane's Insight. The middle 3 of those are probably the most important, and especially the Ribbon.

I'd recommend to go back and wiki how to get those, if you didn't pick them up, because Lion King Soul is incredibly awesome and Ribbon/Shuttle Body are invaluable for status invulnerability on tanks(Especially Remi).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 02, 2010, 02:58:55 PM
The only item I missed was some crystal. I got lucky and got the Lion King Soul boss drop, so of course I knew to go and get another. ;D Also that ribbon is as broken as it was in Final Fantasy.

I wonder if the game would have been harder or easier if evade worked? Certainly it's more consistent if nothing else.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
I wonder if the game would have been harder or easier if evade worked? Certainly it's more consistent if nothing else.
Probably a lot harder, although character balance would be a LOT different; Chen would be near unhittable, and most fragile/less useful characters have a pretty great EVA stat. You'd have to actually pay attention to spell ACC as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 02, 2010, 04:30:09 PM
Things seem to be going forward. With Meiling in my party Chen went down pretty easily, and after running around the entirety of floor 2 I have now also recruited Cirno and Minoriko, as well as beaten up one of Wriggle's bugs. Youmu seems to be more of a problem, though... Perhaps I should just level up some more?

Break the seals anyway for lulz
I would, but Reimu seems to disagree.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 04:35:25 PM
Things seem to be going forward. With Meiling in my party Chen went down pretty easily, and after running around the entirety of floor 2 I have now also recruited Cirno and Minoriko, as well as beaten up one of Wriggle's bugs. Youmu seems to be more of a problem, though... Perhaps I should just level up some more?
A lot of people usually pick up another level or two to take down Youmu, but it shouldn't take much more.

I would, but Reimu seems to disagree.
Go for the other one, in the lower half  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 02, 2010, 04:52:39 PM
Donut should be probated for using that Yukari pic as an avatar. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 05:03:29 PM
Donut should be probated for using that Yukari pic as an avatar. :V
Yukari started the whole incident when her level of prostitute-ness went off the charts and ripped a hole in the space-time continuum. This happening also caused her breasts to suddenly swell to the size of her head. Each.

...lolno, ANYWAY, FINALLY DONE WITH EXPLORING 18F THE SECOND TIME AUUUGH. Now for the boss, which I cannot loltenshi this time ;-;

GET IT AWAY THAT THING HAS COOTIES AUUGH MY MIIIND
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 02, 2010, 05:14:38 PM
Force change Donut's avatar into 18F? y/n
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 05:20:34 PM
Force change Donut's avatar into 18F? y/n
:V
Yessss


Although spoilers for other people etcetc but who cares about that  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 02, 2010, 05:39:05 PM
Go for the other one, in the lower half  :V
It would seem like my suspicions were correct. It will be a while before my characters can take 17,000 damage each and surviving.

Also, I just realized that I can bring up a map of the entire floor. That should help my exploring a bit...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 02, 2010, 05:56:24 PM
Pesco: I told Ruro to change Donut's avatar. It wasn't Donut. :P
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 02, 2010, 05:58:56 PM
You still fail for using a screenshot instead of the image rips.

And 18F's art is WAAAYYY better than Yukari's
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 02, 2010, 06:07:56 PM
Over 1600 posts of discussion made me want to see what all the fuss is about, so I got this game.

I'm not the biggest fan of RPG's and booooooring grinding, so I'm not sure where I'll go with this.  :-X
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 06:13:42 PM
Over 1600 posts of discussion made me want to see what all the fuss is about, so I got this game.

I'm not the biggest fan of RPG's and booooooring grinding, so I'm not sure where I'll go with this.  :-X
As far as RPGs go, this game doesn't really have much grinding. Just some fairly minor parts, up until 16/18/20F, which are basically the end of the game (Not counting the Plus-Disk additions). It's still wonderfully challenging though~<3

Something feels so satisfying about all the awesome Touhou pros coming and getting this game  :V

Anyway, lemme go back and find my tips I gave Donut when he started.

Okay, http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=4614.msg230949#msg230949
That, and the rest of that page. :3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 02, 2010, 07:15:27 PM
Youmu evidently does not like me very much. I can take down her ghost half without problem, but then she just starts ripping through my party with Karma Slash... Is level 13 too low for trying to beat her?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 02, 2010, 07:48:42 PM
Thanks a ton, BTW, what education level of math is that in your opinion btw. Not using the formula, but whatever you did to figure it out, or did you just find it somewhere. I guessed math 12 but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what math 12 would be, but I just used the following summation formulae:
1+2+...+n=n(n+1)/2
1+4+...+n^2=n(n+1)(2n+1)/6

See also Faulhaber's formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulhaber%27s_formula).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 02, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
Youmu evidently does not like me very much. I can take down her ghost half without problem, but then she just starts ripping through my party with Karma Slash... Is level 13 too low for trying to beat her?
13 is enough, youmu is a luck fight somewhat IMO. She is the first and only boss to beat me on my first(second too actually so far, heh) playthru until lily guardian/flan/yukari...I don't remember what came first.

Oops, and the foes...that was more of a 1shot before my first turn thing though.

Quote
1+2+...+n=n(n+1)/2
*facepalm*. I should have figured that one out. derrrrp. I've used the very same formula to figure out similar crap in the past too. zomg.

As for your link, too early in the morning for me atm. (I goto bed at like 4am).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 02, 2010, 08:27:01 PM
Well, that was fun. Beat floor 1 and explored a bit of floor 2.
The beginning was a bit rough though, seeing as you have so little SP and all.

I can see myself liking this game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 02, 2010, 08:55:54 PM
Now I'm curious to see what floor 18 looks like...though I'm still a long ways off from that. :x

Yay Jaimers! \o/ All the cool people are playing this game. FYI, you actually only need to grind for a few bosses here and there. As long as you explore everywhere and don't run from battles, you'll get all the expeience you need most of the time.

Also yeah, if I get a Yukari avatar, there's thousands of better choices than this one. X(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 02, 2010, 08:58:07 PM
I just realized the one thing that would make this game better. Individual path graphics.

As in, rather than every single floor's map looking like cardboard, have them reflect the floor's theme more.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Bananamatic on February 02, 2010, 08:59:41 PM
Which CAVE bosses are there.
I want a list :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 02, 2010, 09:00:42 PM
And Youmu goes down! Turns out that all I needed was use some of all those skill points I just had sitting there...

Also, a question: What stat determines how effective a healing spell is?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 02, 2010, 09:04:08 PM
And Youmu goes down! Turns out that all I needed was use some of all those skill points I just had sitting there...

Also, a question: What stat determines how effective a healing spell is?

Depends on the healer.
Hong: attack
Reimu: mag
...I think it's mag for all the other healers come to think of it.

Quote
Which CAVE bosses are there.
I want a list :V
The game's cool factor is way beyond cave bosses, play the game or else nub...

But if you insist
Some weird butterfly thing with a name that is actually longer than this description I'm using to describe it right now,
Some robot with a propellor head apparently from the game pink sweets,
Hibachi,
Bloody papa (that's his name right? I forget, the boss from death smiles
I THINK that's it

edit: Ninja font change, eek.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 09:24:25 PM
Depends on the healer.
Hong: attack
Reimu: mag
Meiling actually uses equal Atk+Mag, so both are important. Atk is higher though, and easiest to raise via skillpoints for her.

Also, that "name that is insanely long" one, thats the one called Evaccania Doom or however you spell it. But yes, they even mention the incredible length in-game  :V

I just realized the one thing that would make this game better. Individual path graphics.

As in, rather than every single floor's map looking like cardboard, have them reflect the floor's theme more.
This would be pretty awesome. I'd also love if they buffed the more useless characters; for example, Cirno is total crap after SPD down stops working on all the bosses, Rumia isn't much useful at all, and I can definitely keep going on.

Oooh, and if the floor music started where it left off after battles, because the game has some pretty cool music (Esp. 20F!) but it takes awhile to start.

Mmm... and if they had some floor-specific backrounds to go in the character's heads for in-battle instead of just whiteness.


edit: Ninja font change, eek.
And if the ingame font suddenly changed, you started/stopped using Japanese locales, because when you use Jap locales then the game starts using a really pretty looking font.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 02, 2010, 09:40:37 PM
Meiling actually uses equal Atk+Mag, so both are important. Atk is higher though, and easiest to raise via skillpoints for her.

Also, that "name that is insanely long" one, thats the one called Evaccania Doom or however you spell it. But yes, they even mention the incredible length in-game  :V
...Ahh so she does, doh
As for the name, it's longer than that, or is your version just the first two words or something. I thought "light wings" was somewhere in the visible part of the name.

Quote
And if the ingame font suddenly changed, you started/stopped using Japanese locales, because when you use Jap locales then the game starts using a really pretty looking font.
As for the font, I'm talking about the forums, not the game, though it might have just been size.

Quote
This would be pretty awesome. I'd also love if they buffed the more useless characters; for example, Cirno is total crap after SPD down stops working on all the bosses, Rumia isn't much useful at all, and I can definitely keep going on.
I haven't used Rumia much yet (she's in my 2nd playthru's group though), but I still don't think she's useless. Moonlight ray's formula is quite possibly one of the best in the game for its delay (and sp cost but who cares about that), it certainly more than makes up for her bad mag stat. Assuming your target isn't strong against mystic, she's almost like patchy spamming silent selene.

Quote
Oooh, and if the floor music started where it left off after battles, because the game has some pretty cool music (Esp. 20F!) but it takes awhile to start.
YES, I think I mentioned that a few pages back, asking if the new patch did that. I'm not sure if I got around to it, but that was definately #1 on my wish list.. I just LOVE the F9 music...Kinda unrelated, but F5 music totally makes me think I'm playing ogre battle, that song just SCREAMS ogre battle...

Quote
Mmm... and if they had some floor-specific backrounds to go in the character's heads for in-battle instead of just whiteness.

Meh..

One thing I think every traditional RPG should have, and they almost never do: Difficulty settings. I mean seriously, how hard would it be to stick a multiplier in front of enemy stats for this. Probably not their attack stats so much since that just forces you to grind more. But making them have more health, possibly defense/mnd, maybe a smaller extent for speed.. (or less for easier settings)..

Being able to play as the whole cast starting from floor 1 is a given too (going to have to start a 3rd game for that reason).

Plus disk is really stingy on the characters added. I mean I was kinda dissapointed that you never could get some of the characters missing from MoF and SA...Also kinda dissapointed you don't get Kanako until so late ='(. WTF can you get cooty-bag but not satori/koishi.. WHYYYY
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 09:49:11 PM
I haven't used Rumia much yet (she's in my 2nd playthru's group though), but I still don't think she's useless. Moonlight ray's formula is quite possibly one of the best in the game for its delay (and sp cost but who cares about that), it certainly more than makes up for her bad mag stat. Assuming your target isn't strong against mystic, she's almost like patchy spamming silent selene.
I really like Rumia after playing this game. It's just made me love her. But... she really does suck. She's frail, slow, her MND-ignoring attack does terrible damage so its only good against really low-HP stuff that takes 0 damage or for cleaning up weak stuff. Demarcation is useful... if fighting a boss with debuffing, which unfortunately isn't many.

And as for Moonlight Ray... it's nearly as strong as Silent Selene when you first get her, but it soon downgrades to only decent damage, at the level of most good attacker's multi-hit attacks that you spam on the floor trash. In other words... not that great. And I even had her MAG buffed up even higher then my other characters, gear and skill level-wise.

I REALLY like Rumia now, so I want to use her but... she just sucks. Her party debuff+PAR curing is really the only good thing about her, and it isn't useful often.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 02, 2010, 09:55:48 PM
I really like Rumia after playing this game. It's just made me love her. But... she really does suck. She's frail, slow, her MND-ignoring attack does terrible damage so its only good against really low-HP stuff that takes 0 damage or for cleaning up weak stuff. Demarcation is useful... if fighting a boss with debuffing, which unfortunately isn't many.

And as for Moonlight Ray... it's nearly as strong as Silent Selene when you first get her, but it soon downgrades to only decent damage, at the level of most good attacker's multi-hit attacks that you spam on the floor trash. In other words... not that great. And I even had her MAG buffed up even higher then my other characters, gear and skill level-wise.

I REALLY like Rumia now, so I want to use her but... she just sucks. Her party debuff+PAR curing is really the only good thing about her, and it isn't useful often.

Personally I dislike rumia as a character, but I still dunno in game (for bosses, she really is garbage against trash). I don't see how it can lose effectiveness later on. she levels up WAY faster than patchy. Are you sure you aren't just..you know.. spoiling the other casters with better gear in comparison or something? while her  low mnd hurts her compared to patchy, she can't tank spells like a champ. But her def and hp are noticeably higher (along with her level) so that a single arrow rain wont WTFPWN her like they always do patchy.

AHH you made me forget what else I wish the game had...

The battle music is also good (non boss battles I mean, boss battles are good too normally but that's not the point), but you rarely hear that as well. So the game needs a semi-rare encounter (more common than Nitori on floor 7 and 8, but prob not by much) that takes awhile to kill for every floor. It shouldn't be the source of some extra good piece of gear that drops only 1% of the time from an already rare encounter. But it should give you much greater exp and sexp to compensate you for your time spent beating it up... Plus maybe a better chance of a good item that you can get from ordinary enemies as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 10:01:07 PM
I had been giving Rumia my best MAG gear and slightly more points in her MAG then I gave my other casters. At the boss fight with Alice, Moonlight Ray was like a nuke. But, as time passed... in comparison to my other attacks, the damage growth just didn't keep up at all.

Around the point of 9F, Moonlight Ray only did the damage all my other characters did on their multi-hits used for floor trash (maybe less), despite still giving Rumia special treatment. I really wanted to keep using her, but she just sucked ass.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 02, 2010, 10:07:39 PM
Nothing less than 500 levels of mag and 200 levels of spd to make Rumia badass!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 02, 2010, 10:12:11 PM
Nothing less than 500 levels of mag and 200 levels of spd to make Rumia badass!
MOONLIGHT RAY FOR MEGA BOSS OVERKILL
DSotM FOR WIPING FLOOR TRASH OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH
DEMARCATION IS PARTY HP MAXED OUT AND PAR/DEBUFFS REMOVED

You are already dead.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 02, 2010, 10:21:10 PM
FYI, you actually only need to grind for a few bosses here and there. As long as you explore everywhere and don't run from battles, you'll get all the expeience you need most of the time.
On the other hand, if you use a guide and don't explore the entire maps (on the early floors it's no big deal, but some of the later ones get huge), be prepared to grind at most boss fights.  It's also pretty easy to cheat via Cheat Engine and avoid the grind but still keep the game challenging.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 02, 2010, 11:34:55 PM
So I take it I'm not supposed to fight
Wriggle's bug thing
on F2 yet?

It killed me in two shots.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 02, 2010, 11:45:51 PM
You'll be seeing them as late as floor 4, and by then they'll be barely harder than a normal enemy. Then IIRC in floor 6,
they become normal enemies
.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 03, 2010, 01:09:55 AM
You still fail for using a screenshot instead of the image rips.
Know where I can get some? I'm thinking of swapping up to Aquabitch or The Green One for my avatar subject. Possibly sig too if I can get anything good... Know of any good quotes to sig-ify?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 01:14:08 AM
Is it just me, or did the enemies suddenly get ridiculously strong on floor 14? D: Those bronze golems can one shot anyone but my tanks and have so much health and obviously resistant to paralysis and AAAAAAH! D:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 03, 2010, 01:20:18 AM
Is it just me, or did the enemies suddenly get ridiculously strong on floor 14? D: Those bronze golems can one shot anyone but my tanks and have so much health and obviously resistant to paralysis and AAAAAAH! D:
From that point on, the stuff on the floor will rape you at first and then be fairly easy after leveling up. Anyway, the golems should be attacked with heavy hitting stuff to take them out quickly; they shouldn't usually get to hurt you.

Also, the Knowledge ones, or whatever they're called, those recolors from 7F... those things have the dreaded "Destroy Magic", and I think Ether Flare too. Former drains the SP of your 4 active people to 0, latter deals mass damage to the entire party (and can definitely lead to Game Over in some cases!)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 01:34:43 AM
I see. However, I'm so inefficient at killing these guys it'd almost be faster to grind on floor 13. :\

Accidentally ran into a sigil boss, but thankfully beat it without any preparation.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 03, 2010, 01:37:06 AM
I see. However, I'm so inefficient at killing these guys it'd almost be faster to grind on floor 13. :\

Accidentally ran into a sigil boss, but thankfully beat it without any preparation.
15F is only a LOT worse, so if you really can't handle this floor, you really might consider going back.

By the way, check on Kaguya sometimes. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 01:38:01 AM
I see. However, I'm so inefficient at killing these guys it'd almost be faster to grind on floor 13. :\

I've said it a few times, but pretty much as soon as you're done the 10-12F grind, every floor has trash that makes you crap your pants at first. The worst of the worst are probably beldamyrs or whatever they are called.. guhh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 03, 2010, 01:59:29 AM
Quote
The worst of the worst are probably beldamyrs or whatever they are called.. guhh

I think they are called Blackenmel.

And for bosses that are apperently from Cave:
Master Light Wings Close Range Support Cruel Battle Machine Evacannier(sp?) DOOM... or something like that, looks similar to a butterfly :V
Beast of Centurea as well as Beast of Centurea - Breakaway Form, a really big robawt thingie
Hibachi, A bee gone Super Saiyan, if you will :V
Bloody Papa/Bloody Jitterbug, looks like a Super Saiyan farmer :V
Hibachi I and Hibachi II, see Hibachi and make it 2 of it, 1 with a blue-ish aura and the other with a pink-ish/red-ish aura.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 02:05:16 AM
15F is only a LOT worse, so if you really can't handle this floor, you really might consider going back.

By the way, check on Kaguya sometimes. :V

I already know this. BTW, my team is level 53-62, should I make a serious effort to fight her?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 03, 2010, 02:07:02 AM
I already know this. BTW, my team is level 53-62, should I make a serious effort to fight her?
Even if Reimu is the level 62, probably not. Its possible though, maybe. If you wait till Reimu lv70 she's pretty easy, if you want challenge do it inbetween there somewhere.

I did Yuyuko at like lv70 or 72, don't remember, but I've heard people doing her a good bit earlier.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 02:07:39 AM
I already know this. BTW, my team is level 53-62, should I make a serious effort to fight her?

If you already got Yuyuko you should be able to manage. You should also see Orin around now too. I seem to recall you weren't sure if you got all her events yet or not. You only see Orin kicking around after defeating Yuyuko though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 02:29:09 AM
If you already got Yuyuko you should be able to manage. You should also see Orin around now too. I seem to recall you weren't sure if you got all her events yet or not. You only see Orin kicking around after defeating Yuyuko though.

When did I ever imply I got Yuyuko? :V Flawless Nirvana simply does too much damage for her to be viable yet.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 02:38:26 AM
Mid-high 60s should be enough all bosses everything on 14F. You can start from the low 60s if you're feeling really confident.

That said, it's now
Yukari
's turn. Would've loved a "flawless" victory against a certain boss, but I decided against it considering the nature of the battle (read: the boss likes to 1-shot back people for reasons unknown). It's not one that I can stall out indefinitely  ;_;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 02:58:57 AM
Guess who just beat Yuyuko.

With his people in the mid 50s-low 60s.

;D

It just took some lucky paralysis and beefing Yugi to the point where she takes 1/10 of Yuyuko's health per hit, and once Yugi croaks lay on Return Inanimateness, Silent Selene, and whatever else I can manage. It was a little close, but I still beat her. Yuyu~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 03, 2010, 04:50:50 AM
Know where I can get some? I'm thinking of swapping up to Aquabitch or The Green One for my avatar subject. Possibly sig too if I can get anything good... Know of any good quotes to sig-ify?

Check the Labyrinth thread on Poosh. It has the bgm and image rips.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 04:52:43 AM
Yeesh, I wouldn't have thought Mokou would be harder than Yuyuko, but debuffing my attack power makes it quite hard to deal damage to her. X_X
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 04:53:58 AM
Why can't I fully sandbag
Yukari
?  ;_;
Furthermore, her HP is higher than I thought. Or maybe I just lost count.

EDIT: Ah, hah, hah. Now I get RNG shafted and PAR takes effect.

Yeesh, I wouldn't have thought Mokou would be harder than Yuyuko, but debuffing my attack power makes it quite hard to deal damage to her. X_X
>:3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 05:40:29 AM
Don't ">:3" me, help meeee. :( I've gotten her pretty close to death, but I can't quite hack it. How much health does she have?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Chaore on February 03, 2010, 05:46:08 AM
Don't ">:3" me, help meeee. :( I've gotten her pretty close to death, but I can't quite hack it. How much health does she have?

A lot. Lots and lots.

If you're not getting volcano'd, You're doing everything wrong though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 03, 2010, 05:46:34 AM
Don't ">:3" me, help meeee. :( I've gotten her pretty close to death, but I can't quite hack it. How much health does she have?

80,000ish after her clear second phase starts.

Buff up a spark, bro.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 03, 2010, 06:09:45 AM
Right after Resurrection I used a boosted Spark for roughly 70k and Silent Selene for 40k which finished her, so 80k sounds pretty accurate.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 06:22:08 AM
Don't ">:3" me, help meeee. :(
>:3

Fun fact: I won without being Volcano'd on my second try.

Also, note that
Mokou
's attacks are Physical-based for reasons unknown (you'll understand when you recruit her). That's about it for advice.

And, 80k sounds accurate.

Hm.

I'm not too sure as to what I should be doing when
Yukari
starts to self-buff all her stats via IN Quadruple Barrier and proceeds to tear my team apart. I'm fairly sure that I'm close to winning when that happens. However, she starts to move waaaay too fast and I can't swap my "cannons" in and fire immediately; I find myself stalling for 2-3 turns to let the SPD (and DEF / MND) decrease to a somewhat acceptable level. Might decide to swap Suika in for a 1-shot debuff when that happens; take the next attack and then swap 4 people in for a final blow (hopefully)
. But then again, my confidence in this strat is approaching 0 as I write this up simply because I have no proper max HP to work with. Might want to pull out a calculator and estimate the next time I try this.

Or I should grind seeing as I have Reimu Lv74 at the moment and everybody is saying that I should grind for this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 03, 2010, 06:27:01 AM
I've kinda hit a wall, I can't beat Mokou nor Orin. ;_; Maybe I should just press on with floor 16. :S
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 03, 2010, 06:28:44 AM
>:3

Fun fact: I won without being Volcano'd on my second try.

I beat her before she could even Resurrection or Volcano :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 06:32:51 AM
Yukari


She's hard. Stalling doesn't work, at least it didn't for me, she'll just re-buff. If you stall too much, she'll djinn storm after a buff too. Believe me, you don't want that.

I found what helped is to whittle her down with my less than optimal party, after buffing up my "best" characters as best I could, and have them sit around forever, until you know when.

I also found that sword of rapture doesn't have a 40% success rate per stat, it seems to have a 100% success rate with speed and some other stat (mnd maybe? or was it def? it was always those 2 for me), important part being speed of course. Just make sure you get enough regen gear on you know who so you'll be able to afford a sword of rapture after a djinn storm relatively quickly.

Quote
I beat her before she could even Resurrection or Volcano :V

Weren't you told cheaters never win? =P
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 03, 2010, 06:36:07 AM
I already had the other red sister by then, so of course I wtfbbqpwned firebitch ;D
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 03, 2010, 06:38:03 AM
Weren't you told cheaters never win? =P

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't she kinda not die until she resurrects? Either on the Ver.2 or 3 fight at least, I could have sworn that was the case (I do think it was three, since I remember shock at not one-shotting her with a hax'd party)

Confirm, hime.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 06:56:41 AM
The FUCK was that?! I nearly had her down, and then...

BAM.

I hate you all for mocking me. >:( Especially you Baity.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 07:34:15 AM
Wait.

What.

WTF.

Orin's Needle Mountain attack...CRASHES THE GAME?

Fuck this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on February 03, 2010, 07:36:11 AM
Wait.

What.

WTF.

Orin's Needle Mountain attack...CRASHES THE GAME?

Fuck this.
That I havent seen before.  I've seen her crash the game by Cat Walk'ing the first spot when no one was ther before, but never with Needle Moutain.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 07:41:11 AM
Except she used it on Yugi. No excuse, not that there would be one anyway. I've often thought it'd be clever to have an enemy in some game use an attack that destroys all time and space and purposefully freezes the game, but you're never actually supposed to let that happen! That just makes me angry.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 03, 2010, 07:51:29 AM
Except she used it on Yugi. No excuse, not that there would be one anyway. I've often thought it'd be clever to have an enemy in some game use an attack that destroys all time and space and purposefully freezes the game, but you're never actually supposed to let that happen! That just makes me angry.
I don't think thats intentional, seeing as how she used that move on me and I never crashed. =V

Not sure why it would crash. I mean, its hardly the most visually-intensive spell in the game...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 08:21:23 AM
I don't think thats intentional, seeing as how she used that move on me and I never crashed. =V

Not sure why it would crash. I mean, its hardly the most visually-intensive spell in the game...

Maybe Donut didn't tell the game he got a new computer.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 08:32:38 AM
Are you at least telling me that these freezes are rare occurences? =_= The game is hard enough without 'em.

Also, making steady progress on floor 15, I'm ignoring Orin and Mokou until I'm strong enough to hopefully curb-stomp them. Those black enemies with ludicrous defenses are annoying, because only Yugi or Patchy can kill them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 03, 2010, 08:35:50 AM
Are you at least telling me that these freezes are rare occurences? =_= The game is hard enough without 'em.

You're the first case I've heard of. However, it's common for her to attack an empty slot (most always the leftmost) and crash the game there. Just keep a tank there and try not to let anyone die, which should be easy since she has horrible damage output that does nothing but drop quickly as you gain levels.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 03, 2010, 08:37:21 AM
Right. By the time I can last a reasonable amount of time against Yukari I should be able to take both of them down (and I suppose by that time it will be time to recruit Kaguya as well).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 09:01:30 AM
Those black enemies with ludicrous defenses are annoying, because only Yugi or Patchy can kill them.

Autumn healer lady should be able to 1 or 2shot them actually with her single target spell, assuming you have her in your group, her aoe spell probably wont get the job done. Rumia's dark side of the moon also works.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 10:52:10 AM
Sorry for double post, phone won't let me
scroll down when I edit my last one, this post is kinda unrelated anyway.

I notice on the wiki that yuugi's shackle spell says that the formula is the same as the base attack formula. Testing it out seems to indicate otherwise for me. I know all attacks can deviate 10% (so a max possible deviation between 2 attacks would be about 22%) but yuugi tends to shackle for way more Than 122% of attacks damage, more like 160%. bear in mind this is against the same enemy with no leveling buffs or debuffs I'm between. I don't know which of the 2 formulas is incorrect, but not knowing the attack formula makes figuring out enemy def values much more difficult.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 10:56:52 AM
What about enemy Elemental Affinity? Shackles is a SPI-Type Attack after all. That would certainly change your damage output, even if it were the same enemy and under the same conditions.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 11:01:13 AM
What about enemy Elemental Affinity? Shackles is a SPI-Type Attack after all. That would certainly change your damage output, even if it were the same enemy and under the same conditions.

durr? I thought it had no element, nice point. I'll check it out.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 11:25:05 AM
I should probably point out that SPI Affinity/ies not in between 80 and 130 (really rough estimate) should have a large enough impact on the results that you get.

Also, I got out-tanked by her again  >_>
I seem to have no way of going about dealing that much damage in just 1-2 rounds. 180k in a single turn wasn't enough once that started. Urge to use
Tenshi
, rising.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 03, 2010, 12:41:46 PM
For
Orin
, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't she weak as all hell and nearly incapable of KO'ing ANYONE worth having in the 1st and 2nd slot? Cause she was absolutly pitiful when I got to her and fought her. I used the incredibly simple party of Meiling, Remi, Reimu, Marisa to win, switching Marisa out for
Ran
so I could have a MAG+100% on Marisa so I could do a proper Spark. After the Spark, I had Patchy in slot 4.

EDIT: Baity, I have some info for you about defeating
Yukari
, I'll spoiler mark the info:
-Very weak to NTR.
-650k HP.
-All her attacks are magic based.
-Form switch at 400k and 200k.

Now, here is what I did and I would reccomend trying it yourself.
I had Suwako with me for her Single Target NTR move, which was dealing 100k~ per use. When I started the fight, I had a Calculator opened up, and whenever I dealt damage I added it up. Just before the damage total hit 450k, I brought my nukes and nuked her to death.
If you try all this and it still does not work, then you may need to grind, I was at Reimu Lv 85 when I won, but apperently Lv 75 is good enough :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 03, 2010, 01:04:46 PM
New question: Does status afflictions and/or boosts remain when you switch out characters?

Also, got Rumia on my first attempt. Is it just me, or does she hardly do any damage at all in her boss battle? She kept using Moonlight Ray on Reimu and Patchy, and it never did more than zero damage to them...

And Chen's Phoenix Spread Wings combined with Sakuya's Misdirection seem to be great for taking out just about anything on floor 3 (except for those annoying Tengus) before they can even attack.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 03, 2010, 01:13:41 PM
Quote
New question: Does status afflictions and/or boosts remain when you switch out characters?

Yes. All Ailments, Buffs and Debuffs will remain in effect even if you switch that character out.

Chens Pheonix Spread Wings has pretty good multipliers on it, or at least seems powerful for Chen standards. Sakuya's Misdirection will falter and seem useless at times, leaving you with Killing Doll and Soul Sculpture for offense, and Soul Sculpture >>>>>> Misdirection to be honest even though the price is steaper.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jyazen on February 03, 2010, 02:49:12 PM
I'm back from my break so I can finally continue my venture to 21F and beyond. Grinded a bit @ 20F. Never did get another Ribbon but I lucked out and got 3 Flower Blade so I guess it's all good. Now I'm off to fight the Version 2 bosses. A quick question regarding that...

Do the version 2 bosses drop anything?

Would be awesome if I can get more of the limited item boss drops like another Grim Grimoire. I know I can get another from the Boss Rush, but what about the v2s?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 03, 2010, 03:00:36 PM
Just defeated Alice's dolls (and was kind of taken aback at their complete lack of any kind of difficulty) and the last of Wriggle's bugs, and then proceeded to get utterly destroyed by Alice herself. Silence is not a very nice status ailment, and especially so once Meiling goes down and I can't cure it anymore.

And by the way, how long does poison last before it goes away? I'm trying to determine if starting out with Wriggle against Alice is worth it or not, but the lack of an enemy health bar makes it kind of hard.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 03, 2010, 06:38:43 PM
Just defeated Alice's dolls (and was kind of taken aback at their complete lack of any kind of difficulty) and the last of Wriggle's bugs, and then proceeded to get utterly destroyed by Alice herself. Silence is not a very nice status ailment, and especially so once Meiling goes down and I can't cure it anymore.

And by the way, how long does poison last before it goes away? I'm trying to determine if starting out with Wriggle against Alice is worth it or not, but the lack of an enemy health bar makes it kind of hard.

Silence goes away after about 3-4 turns automatically, but the character does have to actually be on the battlefield for this to happen.

As for Poison, it depends on the move that inflicted it and the user's level.  Wriggle's poison is actually pretty strong, but reapplying it over and over is a good idea.  The way Poison works is to do damage almost constantly, but every time it does do damage, its effectiveness drops a bit until it eventually fades.  So, reapplying it constantly keeps it doing as much damage as possible.

The formula is in the topic somewhere, it's just... yeah.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 03, 2010, 06:50:21 PM
Holy fuck,
Youmu
is such a terrible boss fight.
I'm trying desperately to paralyse and speed her down with Reimu and Cirno while hoping to God she doesn't hit anyone but Meiling as everyone else is a one hit kill.
And that's not even taking into account her "LOL LETS KILL EVERYONE" attack.  >:(

EDIT:
BAWWWWWWWW
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 03, 2010, 07:27:45 PM
I am not sure if it was Wriggle keeping Alice and her dolls poisoned for the first half of the battle, me focusing my attacks on the healing doll first instead of the magic one, using up almost all my skillpoints before the battle, or a combination of the three. But in any case, Alice just got defeated on my second attempt. Though I have to say that I got a bit worried when she started using Little Legion and Return Inanimateness once all the dolls were gone... Anyway, on to floor five!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 03, 2010, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho
For
Orin
, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't she weak as all hell and nearly incapable of KO'ing ANYONE worth having in the 1st and 2nd slot?
This depends on whether or not you get RNG shafted and have your DEF debuffed. While talking about being RNG shafted, in my "victory"
6 people were KO'd because of being walked over; and these were in the 3rd and 4th slots
.

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho
I'll spoiler mark the info:
-Very weak to NTR.
-All her attacks are magic based.
-Form switch at 400k and 200k.
1. I was beginning to notice that after trying out attacks at random
2. Most are; I noted 1, maybe 2 exceptions.
3. So close  ;_;

Guess it's time to do this once again. Looks like I won't even "need" to grind that extra level and reach Lv 75 after all  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 03, 2010, 07:46:47 PM
Well, any extra levels you grind for that fight can only do you good, since you'll have to get them anyway on the next few floors to stand a chance.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 08:02:30 PM
Quote
-All her attacks are magic based.

NO. Her deadliest attack of all (for me anyway) flying swallow something or other is physical. I swear if it wasn't for that one spell she'd be a breeze.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 03, 2010, 09:00:56 PM
Is there a faster way to assign level-ups than giving them out individually? Having to manually give new characters 20+ of them and the included bonuses is getting kind of annoying...

Also, why is
Yuugi
not marked as a boss? I just ran into her and got utterly obliterated, and ended up having to reexplore half of floor 5.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 03, 2010, 09:04:48 PM
I just pulled an awesome victory against
Flandre.  The fight was going badly from the start, I was losing characters quickly and my debuffs kept failing to hit, so it came down to Tenshi and a couple of other attackers/supporters.  Flandre started spamming Laevatein and all of the others except Suwako died (Komachi got one-shotted at full health), so the only thing I could do was use Tenshi to swap Suwako in when Flandre was low on gauge to use Croaking Frog Eaten by Snake and then swap her back out before Flandre got another turn, while trying to keep State of Enlightenment up.  Finally, Tenshi had no SP and was going to get ko'd by the next attack, and the last hit from Suwako finished her
.  Not that hard of a boss but it was nice beating her on my first serious attempt.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 09:06:47 PM
Is there a faster way to assign level-ups than giving them out individually? Having to manually give new characters 20+ of them and the included bonuses is getting kind of annoying...

Also, why is
Yuugi
not marked as a boss? I just ran into her and got utterly obliterated, and ended up having to reexplore half of floor 5.

Nope, have to do it 1 at a time.

Because the game designer felt evil, and they know it. At the final floor post-game it gets special mention.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 03, 2010, 09:27:34 PM
Fuck you Mokou.

Fujiyama Volcano is ridiculous.
RIDICULOUS
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 03, 2010, 09:30:35 PM
Fuck you Mokou.

Fujiyama Volcano is ridiculous.
RIDICULOUS
You aren't supposed to survive this, instead, you're supposed to 100% MAG buff MASTER SPAAAARK and kill her after Resurrection.

Meiling should be able to take a hit from it, though, which means you shouldn't have to worry about not switching Marisa in on time. In fact, with the help of a healer+Meiling's self heal, you can actually survive for a decent amount of time switching in/out nukers and healers after she starts spamming it. Anything other then MASTER SPARKU is highly unrecommended though.


EDIT:I gave the 16F whore MND on her level-up boosts. Its even better then Patchy's now, PLUS she has okay HP/DEF, AND a party Def/Mnd buff, plus a SPD down/PAR on all skill... damn, MND is a MUCH better choice for her then MAG will ever be.

Just beat 18F boss, 16F slut was out 96% of the time and the only time she took damage was from Ratetsu Fist or w/e its called, awesome. 18F boss was actually not hard at all this time around, now that I had 3 people tanking it (Meiling/Remi/16F hoe). Still took a half hour, but that theme is pretty great so~

EDIT(again):Am I using too many degrading adjectives on 16F prostitute? >:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 03, 2010, 10:08:03 PM
18F boss was like the easiest boss in the game for me. I spent about half my level up bonuses on MND or DEF for like my entire party. attack stats are nice and all, but I find most bosses tend to have little def/mnd anyway. And they become trivial when you overlevel not because they die fast, but because they do piss damage.

18F just does piss damage even with a LITTLE bit of defense >=P
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 03, 2010, 11:29:36 PM
Floor 7.

Oh god.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 04, 2010, 12:13:57 AM
18F boss was like the easiest boss in the game for me. I spent about half my level up bonuses on MND or DEF for like my entire party. attack stats are nice and all, but I find most bosses tend to have little def/mnd anyway. And they become trivial when you overlevel not because they die fast, but because they do piss damage.

18F just does piss damage even with a LITTLE bit of defense >=P

I'd still argue this to the death. Balancing/going more offensive totally wrecks you for that fight. You can't make up for it with items, because you need ailment resistance MUCH more than the stat points, and even then he simply outlasts you. 95 was the level I beat him first time around, and it was a very close win at that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 04, 2010, 01:06:09 AM
NO. Her deadliest attack of all (for me anyway) flying swallow something or other is physical. I swear if it wasn't for that one spell she'd be a breeze.

Actually,
Flying Insect's Nest
is magical. It's just really, really strong for a magical attack. (I assume you think it's physical because it 1shotted Patchy or something; it always one-shotted
Tenshi
in slot 1 unbuffed which nothing else even came close to doing in phases 1 and 2, so I doubt DEF has anything to do with it).

As for 16f,
Djinn Storm -> Barrier Release happens at exactly 400k remaining, and Djinn Storm -> Barrier Release -> IN Quadruple Barrier happens at exactly 200k remaining. Use Ran to buff up your 4 best attackers (or 3 best + Kaguya to make your best go again), beat her down to as close to 200k as possible, wait for her to use a long delay move like Sakura Blizzard, then bring out all your attackers and zerg her down before she gets to Djinn Storm.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 04, 2010, 01:17:49 AM
Actually,
Flying Insect's Nest
is magical. It's just really, really strong for a magical attack. (I assume you think it's physical because it 1shotted Patchy or something; it always one-shotted
Tenshi
in slot 1 unbuffed which nothing else even came close to doing in phases 1 and 2, so I doubt DEF has anything to do with it).
Flying Insect's Nest is an attack she always has in that fight, I've had her use it as an opener before. I believe you meant Hyperactive Flying Object.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 04, 2010, 02:51:00 AM
Bitch KO'd 2 before I won.

Oh well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 04, 2010, 03:04:16 AM
Bitch KO'd 2 before I won.

Oh well.
You act as if only 2 deaths is a bad thing. >:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 04, 2010, 03:46:25 AM
Quote
Bitch KO'd 2 before I won
Quote
KO'd 2 before I won
Quote
KO'd 2

:o

I assume you mean 16F. Only 2 getting KO'ed on that fight is very good. Although, I assume you were hoping for the awesome "0 Casualties" fight, which seems impossible once you hit around... 7F-8F bosses without lotsa grinding beforehand.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 04, 2010, 04:51:33 AM
Seriously.

Why is Mokou's last phase so retarded?

Not even Master Spark and Silent Selene's combined forces can kill her before she unleashes her total party OHKO. I even buffed master spark to about 80% magic beforehand and attached a bunch of magic buffs to Marisa.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 04, 2010, 05:20:55 AM
I assume you mean 16F.
Of course I mean 16F.

Only 2 getting KO'ed on that fight is very good. Although, I assume you were hoping for the awesome "0 Casualties" fight, which seems impossible once you hit around... 7F-8F bosses without lotsa grinding beforehand.
Seems "impossible" for most, but it's only a select few in actuality. For me, the following notable Boss Battles (read: I ignored the 8F
spirits
, and 8-10F
butterflies
) were done with 0 KO's from 8F onwards... in some kind of order:
Nitori (lots of praying)
,
Sanae's Foe (which I rushed)
,
Tenshi (lots of praying)
,
12F Trio
,
Both 14F Sigil Guardians
,
Yuyuko (pray that 4% DTH didn't occur)
,
Great Stamp (Lily Sigil; 15-16F related)
and
Kaguya's Foe
.
1-2 KO's (which could've been more or less averted with more caution):
Mokou
and
Yukari
.
3+:
Suwako; 3
,
Flan; 3
,
Orin (RNG-shafted); 6
and
Hill Gigas (stupid 100 x Lv damage, etc.); 3
.

You'll notice a certain common trait between various bosses that I had "trouble" with  :V

Not even Master Spark and Silent Selene's combined forces can kill her before she unleashes her total party OHKO. I even buffed master spark to about 80% magic beforehand and attached a bunch of magic buffs to Marisa.
...how much is each hitting for?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 04, 2010, 05:23:37 AM
Master Spark hits for around 43k and Silent Selene hits for about 25K.

Also, when I finally beat the Eientei team, I didn't lose a single person. 8)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 04, 2010, 06:45:28 AM
Master Spark hits for around 43k-
godotcoffeespit.gif

Alright! I've heard enough of that to work out what's going on. As stated / confirmed by people, you need to deal about 80k to
Mokou between Resurrection and Volcano spam
to take her out. Not necessarily in one blow; a series can work just as well (obv). So! Let's do some basic addition and... find that you didn't deal enough to win. Makes me wonder what equipment you're running to deal only 43k with a Spark at +80% MAG. Or Skill Point allocation, but I won't go there.

And since I don't use Patchy (NO WAI), I can't get a feel as to whether 25k is good or not.

That being said; you can either choose to:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on February 04, 2010, 08:25:35 AM
So uh...what the hell are King Arthurs? I found one on 22f and 29f, and it's not in the item list...as far as I can tell. ???
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 04, 2010, 08:30:56 AM
So uh...what the hell are King Arthurs? I found one on 22f and 29f, and it's not in the item list...as far as I can tell. ???

King Arthur - HP/SP +128%, All Elemental Resistances +128 (Pg14)
Item drop of Suwako Moriya Ver3, 30F
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 04, 2010, 08:35:26 AM
It's true, I haven't allocated as many magic levels onto Marisa as I should have, but I HAVE attached a bunch of magic enhancing items onto her. :\

As for the cat, she crashed the game again. :[ Even if her attacks are pretty weak, her speed makes her attacks impossible to heal up against in time, leaving one person dead, and when Orin kills someone, she WILL crash the game attacking them after they're dead.

For both of these bosses, I'm doing the obvious solution and grinding on floor 15. The floor's enemies are much better paced than the ones on floor 14. It's actually kind fun~

Also I took 26000 skill points and used them to up all of Sanae's affinities by 50. Suddenly she can survive attacks a lot better. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 04, 2010, 08:44:34 AM
Hey donut, you should grind on floor 13 instead. You get as good if not better EXP/time ratio and the blue knights drop a really, really nice piece of equipment for you.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 04, 2010, 08:52:33 AM
95/100, Lv9600

I am nearing the end of my challenge, and therefore nearing the end of playing this wonderfully fun game. I will miss this very much, as I doubt I will come back to another run through of this game in an extremely long time. Over the times I've beaten up the FRUE FINAL, I've learned to love almost every single one of the 40 characters. Here are some of the characters that I've learned to appreciate during this massive trial of masochism that I failed to really realize the potential of in the main game:

Kaguya
It's already been picked up by Tai, and I've been beaten over the head with it by a bunch of people, but damn, that MND piercing property of her magic really really kicks ass on that insanely high (albeit twinked) MAG stat. She's easily now my top damage dealer against the FRUE FINAL, who seemed to love spamming Absolute Defense in his final phase, and earlier attempts found me struggling when I was only using one or two characters with ITD and did not really invest many skill points into Kaguya. Indeed, she is massive twink bait and is a very worthwhile investment. Even using her for Buddabowl, it's extremely convenient at a pinch. In other words, I had to really work hard into making Kaguya the magical destroyer that she turned out to be, oh, 'round the 70th time I started to beat the guy up. At Lv9300 and with Lv7000+ in MAG, she's a destructive force to be reckoned with. Not Flandre-tier destructive, of course, but well there, due to the ignoring MND and all.

Renko
Renko's only here because she has the most wacked skill-set I have ever seen. Debilitate is nothing short of a free "hurrr no buffs for you!" and is far more effective in dispelling the final's own buffs than it is to try using Tenshi's Sword of Rapture, which I'm confidently sure doesn't work often enough for it to be worth using. I took great care to boost Renko's defensive stats and her mediocre speed, with some levels into her decent-ish HP. I ended up ignoring her offensive stats as that's what you're NOT supposed to be using her for. She has an MT IMMA CHARGIN MAH LASER skill that instead gimps your delay and damages you slightly. The timing, is, therefore, required in order to work out the kinks of using the skill. But once you get the trick, it's very useful for quick bursts of damage. Galaxy Stop is also completely imbalanced in almost any situation, costing a measly 60 SP for something so damned good. Right, it does jack shit for damage despite it being ITD because I didn't raise her horrendous offensive stats, but the MT 120 Count PAR and the AGI down is just really useful. In other words, in the previous times I used her to fight the FRUE FINAL, I only used her for Debilitate and not much else, but she's now a dedicated mainstay.

Youmumu
Slow, but that was easily fixed-ish, at the short-term cost of increasing her power up even more (Lv9000-ish in SPD, but Lv6500-ish in ATK). She became an effective random-clearer alongside random-clearing greats as Chen, Orin, Alice, and others. Her ST attacks are relatively strong, though still comparatively same-y when you put her alongside Miss Yuugi and Suicamelon, I really didn't appreciate the power that Youmu had until I dragged her along. Not quite a mainstay in my boss-slaying team as Yuugi is, but still, a worthy character. If you can get over her woeful speed of suck and shit.

Swacko
Dual-type damage. Kinda like Yuugi, except intrinsically worse in stats. I tried to fix them as best I could, going for an even Lv7000 in all stats. Aaaand, well, Swacko's not entirely bad! Snake Eating forever remains a solid ST nuke that deals significant damage against the FRUE FINAL's ever increasing defense. Perhaps it is not as good as, say, Silent Selene or some shit, but it is still reliable.

Fun mathsy stuff!

The FRUE FINAL at 100th time is:
HP 1742500000 (1b 742m 500k)
ATK 1703130
DEF 891020
MAG 2121965
MND 891020
AGI is... well, don't bother. He's almost always faster than you.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 04, 2010, 09:01:15 AM
Calling him the true final isn't really correct. It's kinda like saying Shinryu is the true final boss of final fantasy 5. :V

Grats on the 100 (well, 95) kills, though. How many gameplay hours do you have?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Tsumachi on February 04, 2010, 09:02:43 AM
King Arthur - HP/SP +128%, All Elemental Resistances +128 (Pg14)
Item drop of Suwako Moriya Ver3, 30F

Aha! It shows up as Arturos Gem in the item list, so I looked right past it.
What the hell?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 04, 2010, 09:03:28 AM
Calling him the true final isn't really correct. It's kinda like saying Shinryu is the true final boss of final fantasy 5. :V

Grats on the 100 (well, 95) kills, though. How many gameplay hours do you have?

I call him true final because it is like calling Ur-Child the true final of EO2. I'm using the Etrian Odyssey parallels. Akyu explicitly has the boss resurrected for future fights.

Gameplay hours is well over 300.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 04, 2010, 11:53:09 AM
Aha! It shows up as Arturos Gem in the item list, so I looked right past it.
What the hell?

The text you get for receiving items from treasure chests, and the text that's shown in the equipment list is actually stored in different addresses. The file containing all the text from the equipment list was considered the "base", and the equipment names from that list went through several modifications, especially at the end when I was compiling the reference list and searched out the games each item was referencing. I then changed the name in the get messages. The Arturos Gem was apparently the one item I forgot to change in the file containing all the "got" messages.

tl;dr: lolpatchbug

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 04, 2010, 12:51:22 PM
Quote
Master Spark hits for around 43k

:o Wow

I think I see the problem here, your Marisa doesn't have much SP remaining does she? Her SP count affects the power of Spark pretty big, so much that I would sooner reccomend 2 equips giving 30%-50% SP and 1 giving 30%-50% MAG over 2 MAG and 1 SP ect... The percents given for equips were just numbers I picked, if you don't have equips giving those sort of stats, the next best will be fine as well :)

If my memory is correct, the Master Spark has a damage formula like so: (1 + a) x ((MAG x 8 ) - (T.MND / 2)). a is based off of how much extra SP Marisa is spending on Spark and when the extra SP spent = 1160 or higher, a = 1. With this formula at it's best, a = 1, and Marisa having 7000 MAG, the target having 1000 MND(lol, random-but-simple number pick) and the target having a MYS affinity of 100, you could be seeing about 111000. :V

A more likly Spark scenario at around the point your at Donut would probly have a Marisa with... what, 500-600 SP maybe? With the exact same situation from above, but with 580 SP rather then 1160 being spent extra, you could see about 83250 damage.

Could you post some of your Marisa stats here Donut, particularly SP and MAG?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 04, 2010, 01:45:28 PM
Throwing up some buffs may also help in amplifying the Master Spark's damage if you're not one for grinding a little bit for a little more SP or MAG (or just plain raw levels).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 04, 2010, 02:57:13 PM
Don't have time to post stats right now, but it can't be SP that's the problem, because to keep the magic buff as high as possible I use her for Master Spark exclusively in this fight. That 43k was at max SP.

EDIT: Actually I just remembered it doesn't even take two minutes to get an image like that, so here:

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2695/30466566.jpg)

My team is now in their low to mid 60s BTW.

BTW, no way in hell am I grinding on floor 13. >_> That floor lags worse than any other in the game, and I never even completely filled in the map. Another nice thing about floor 15 is that even though I've filled the map in a good amount it still runs at a good speed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 04, 2010, 04:41:00 PM
Why is her mag not at level 100?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 04, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
Oh god
Yuugi's
attacks are powerful. At least she was nice enough to only ever attack the person in the first slot... Though I got kind of lucky at the end, when Meiling went down and I had to keep switching people in only to have them destroyed by the next attack. Luckily Rumia and Marisa managed to take her down before I ran out of party members.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 04, 2010, 06:24:09 PM
Quote from: Donut
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2695/30466566.jpg)

Ahahaha noob. The levels in Att and Def are wasted. The Affinities are not needed.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 04, 2010, 08:12:29 PM
Oh god
Yuugi's
attacks are powerful. At least she was nice enough to only ever attack the person in the first slot... Though I got kind of lucky at the end, when Meiling went down and I had to keep switching people in only to have them destroyed by the next attack. Luckily Rumia and Marisa managed to take her down before I ran out of party members.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?

A little, yeah.  This isn't that uncommon for when you face it.  With that said, the F7 boss also runs on a pattern.  After Flowing Hellfire, it does about three turns of normal attacks before using Hellfire again.  I think it's three, it may be four.  Anyway, the trick is to let Meiling survive it, then swap in characters to heal/buff her.  Swap in a speedster like Chen or Aya to deal some damage out, and you may want to consider Cirno to take advantage of its massive CLD weakness, plus its vulneurability to PAR and SPD debuffing, to give you more time.  If you can't kill it before it uses Hellfire again, swap the rest of your party back into reserve, let Meiling soak up the damage, and pull them back out after.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 04, 2010, 08:18:54 PM
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2695/30466566.jpg.
I seriously have no idea why you're not pumping MAG higher. It's still a cheap investment at that point. So to speak I'm saying something along the lines of:
Why is her mag not at level 100?

Here's my Marisa's current Skill Point Distribution; note that I've left it untouched going from 14F to where I am now (reason being: I didn't find it necessary to increase it higher; the way I play should be evidence of that). Note: Haven't removed the equipment yet so ignore the actual stats themselves.
(http://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/12/80/32/92/th/untitl31.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=379&u=12803292)
ITT Post Marisa stats.

Also, 7F boss's Flowing Hellfire takes out everyone except Meiling in one shot. I assume that this means that I have to grind for a bit?
Once you get
Yuugi
, that's another potential person who can take a Flowing Hellfire. If you also have been investing in Minoriko, then she's another potential person who can take it, given the proper equipment (note that you might not even need to increase FIR Affinity). I recall using Reimu as a 4th person to take it as well, but I needed to equip 2 Bomb Rings (you should have quite a few of those now) to be able to do that.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 04, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
I wouldn't say defense is wasted on Marisa.. I just wouldn't put as many points into it as her other stats. But in all seriousness, it's actually pretty dumb IMO to not spend at least 10 points in defense or something when it costs less than 200 skillpoints and you make like 500+ per battle or something by that part of the game (I forget how much, I'm sure it's over 300 though).
20% more defense may not be much on someone like Marisa sure, but it actually *DOES* mean she gets 2shot instead of 1shot in some cases from attacks like arrow rain or needle parade (when buffed). Even if you buff her in battle defense, she'll croak to physical multi spells for sure if you leave defense alone.. This goes for any character btw. You need to think with math instead of absolutes. 10% of 100 is less than 10% of 10000 sure (which is an exageration of even flan attack to flan mnd, which is the most extreme case of them all). But 100%-110% of 100 for the price of 8 skillpoints gives you a better value than 800%-810% for the price of 500000 skillpoints.

If the skillpoint cost didn't grow as you increased it, just sticking with 2 major stats would definately be the way to go, but it does.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 04, 2010, 08:32:42 PM
Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 04, 2010, 08:39:08 PM
Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!

No, that sounds about right; most people seem to take her down at around level 12 or so.  But yeah, she is a fairly luck-based boss for so early in the game.  Good job though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 04, 2010, 08:41:31 PM
Yay! I beat Youmu! \o/
Talk about difficulty out of nowhere. Probably shouldn't have had so much problems with her, but then again I think I was pretty underleveled. Is level 11 low?  :V
Luck was on my side as I managed to slow her down and paralyse her so much she barely had any chance to attack.

Oh well, time for new and exciting stuff!

11 isn't low, but it's not high either. She's a dumb boss fight IMO. I pretty much had no trouble with alot of the bosses after her, including some of the notoriously hard ones like Alice and the 12F and 18F boss. But even on my 2nd playthru, Youmu pwnt me on my first attempt.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 04, 2010, 08:56:46 PM
Like was said before, buffing the defense of characters like Marisa and Patchy means that they will be able to survive one more attack. As for why magic is so low, to be honest I just noticed yesterday that magic was so cheap to raise that it was still at 300 skill points a buff. ;>_>

Also affinities are quite important when Marisa dies to a single Ihakasa's Moon Curse. Heck, I poured 20000 or so skill points purely into raising Sanae's affinities, and she can suddenly survive much longer.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 04, 2010, 09:09:25 PM
Like was said before, buffing the defense of characters like Marisa and Patchy means that they will be able to survive one more attack. As for why magic is so low, to be honest I just noticed yesterday that magic was so cheap to raise that it was still at 300 skill points a buff. ;>_>

Also affinities are quite important when Marisa dies to a single Ihakasa's Moon Curse. Heck, I poured 20000 or so skill points purely into raising Sanae's affinities, and she can suddenly survive much longer.

Well, the thing about Defense on characters like Marisa and Patchy is that it's so low that the skill points you invest won't even have that much of an effect.  Neither of them have the HP that 'that little extra bit' will usually help too much.  You'd generally be better putting those points into SPD or their offensive stats, or at least their MND, to make them better at what they already do.  Generally I've found that trying to cover up for a weakness in this game doesn't work as well as switching to a character who is better at that, or just trying to avoid having that weakness be exploited.

Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Of course it's all up to you.  I just find that in general, focusing on a character's strength is far more rewarding in the long run than trying to amp up their weak stats, with the notable exception of SPD and neutralizing low affinities being fairly important to everyone.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 04, 2010, 09:22:06 PM
Well, the thing about Defense on characters like Marisa and Patchy is that it's so low that the skill points you invest won't even have that much of an effect.  Neither of them have the HP that 'that little extra bit' will usually help too much.  You'd generally be better putting those points into SPD or their offensive stats, or at least their MND, to make them better at what they already do.  Generally I've found that trying to cover up for a weakness in this game doesn't work as well as switching to a character who is better at that, or just trying to avoid having that weakness be exploited.

Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Of course it's all up to you.  I just find that in general, focusing on a character's strength is far more rewarding in the long run than trying to amp up their weak stats, with the notable exception of SPD and neutralizing low affinities being fairly important to everyone.

I'm trying to say (and I know you aren't replying to me but I k now some people, possibly you too may not agree with me) that you don't try to cover up a character's weakness by spending skillpoints into their weaknesses. But rather, you spend some points into them when it's cheap. I mean, is it really a loss to lose 4 skillpoints raising marisa's defense skill level from 1 to 2? I mean will it help? probably not, but I rekon it will help more than 4 skillpoints will HURT.

You just stop before the cost becomes somewhat significant.

You definately shouldn't have it nearly as high as their main stats though.

If a character's poor defense stat is 1/5 as high as their good stats, and their skill level is going to make 1/5 of a difference, why the hell not buff it 5 times more than your main stat when it costs a lot LESS than 1/5 of the cost to do so.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 04, 2010, 09:22:54 PM
I'm trying to say (and I know you aren't replying to me but I k now some people, possibly you too may not agree with me) that you don't try to cover up a character's weakness by spending skillpoints into their weaknesses. But rather, you spend some points into them when it's cheap. I mean, is it really a loss to lose 4 skillpoints raising marisa's defense skill level from 1 to 2? I mean will it help? probably not, but I rekon it will help more than 4 skillpoints will HURT.

You just stop before the cost becomes somewhat significant.

You definately shouldn't have it nearly as high as their main stats though.

If a character's poor defense stat is 1/5 as high as their good stats, and their skill level is going to make 1/5 of a difference, why the hell not buff it 5 times more than your main stat when it costs a lot LESS than 1/5 of the cost to do so.

...This is startilngly logical.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 05, 2010, 04:50:02 AM
YYYYYYYYYES. I beat Mokou at long last! :D

Also oh man floor 16 and I still haven't beaten Orin. I should probably go and try again. Also I'm going to be on floor 16 for a long time, aren't I? :[
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 05, 2010, 08:10:30 AM
And you never permanently lose skill points ANYWAY, as far as I'm concerned. Patchy and Marisa's p.dur is far from stellar, and Patchy's is probably unsalvageable. But it's still worth the small costs. It adds up.

Quote
Mind you affinites are a bit of a special case.  They can help, but the biggest difference is getting them up over 100 so the character isn't recieving increased damage.  The farther up it goes, the less and less the affinity will make a difference (And you won't be at the point where the difference between a natural 175 and 200 makes a huge enough difference for the skill point investment to be important for a long time).

Truth. You only really need to consider getting resistances past 200 once you're F25 or higher.

I had to pump my resistances well over 500 before the bosses on the 30F began to do tolerable damage to me, and equipments can augment that even more - especially shit like Physical Reactors.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 05, 2010, 08:27:42 PM
Why is her mag not at level 100?
Pretty much all my chars have 40-50 in their major stats and I can handle everything on floor 16, and could probably beat its boss without much more investment if I wasn't lazy and used a calculator to tell the exact HP the boss has remaining.

It's that low because I keep adding new characters to my team, who eat up all my reserves in order to bring them up to par with the rest. It's really hard to try out multiple new chars and not end up having to grind for more skillpoints. Especially if you're ending up with effectively an exploration team and bosskilling team, all of which have to survive on the same skillpoint pool... It should be easier now that my final team is pretty much set, as I don't plan on using anyone else from F14 other than the one I worked specifically towards getting, nor do I plan to use anyone who joins after, nor 12F girl who is still annoyingly refusing to join. However, my pool for skillpoints is still effectively dry and beating on some enemies will hardly be enough to bring all my major damage-dealers to 100 in their major stats...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 05, 2010, 11:43:27 PM
16F's boss continues to be a pain, though I should probably be a bit higher level.  I can consistently get through her first two forms but when the third one boosts with
IN Quadruple Barrier
and goes berserk after you're still hurting from the Djinn Storm my party always ends up dying, especially since
Tenshi
can't tank without SP.


Is anyone sure if
Suika's Throwing Atlas
attack is affected by MND instead of DEF like the English wiki states?  Neither the JP wiki nor the in-game description say anything about it targetting mind and it seems kind of strange.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 05, 2010, 11:47:20 PM
Is anyone sure if
Suika's
Throwing Atlas attack is affected by MND instead of DEF like the English wiki states?  Neither the JP wiki nor the in-game description say anything about it targetting mind and it seems kind of strange.
That is probably a typo. All of 14F kitty's physical attacks said they targetted MND as well, on the english wiki, but I had noticed that and fixed it.

ALSO, just fixed typo with 9F optional. Her Optic Camo boosts DEF/MND/SPD by 50% each, not 33% and 15% SPD. In the 2.05+ patches, she should actually be a pretty nice character with that buff and the massively stronger Megawatt.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 06, 2010, 07:04:34 AM
Ok, I'm trying out
Sikieiki
and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while
Sikieiki
gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 06, 2010, 07:35:35 AM
Ok, I'm trying out
Sikieiki
and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while
Sikieiki
gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V

That's the least accurate damage results you can do actually.. The thing is
Sikieiki's
attack ignores defense, so by using it on targets with virtually no defense, you're gimping her of her special ability.

Of course, not buffing your characters is also cheating remi, because curse is a very easy to use, very accessible, very powerful buff. Comparing her unbuffed to someone else incapable of buffing themselves is also not fair.

Sikieiki's
attacks have monster delay however, and her speed is nothing special. Remi on the other hand is quite fast, and her attacks have ordinary delay.

Most bosses I find tend to have fairly minimal defense, no more than most trash their own level really. So accurate results would probably be average-defense trash your level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 06, 2010, 08:01:45 AM
Ghaloen, I was just doing a quick test of what each could do with nothing extra effecting dmg past the minimal DEF stats of 1F foes. In the moring/within the next few minute, I will do a similar test on the highest floor I can access, and I will also toss buffs into the mix after that.

These quick tests are just to see for myself how much
Sikieiki
out-damages Remi and are not really worth anything in the end past self-satisfaction. Also, slight... oddity, I guess would be the word, I noticed while testing,
Sikieiki's Trial of Ten Kings
dealt, I think it was 90k dmg to 1 foe and like 75k to the other. Is this difference really just from random variable? The move in question seems to be Non-Elemental and both targets were on 1F so defensive stats couldn't be the cause.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 06, 2010, 08:15:46 AM
Ok, I'm trying out
Sikieiki
and holy wow! My Remi can dish out 600k with Spear on 1F foes while
Sikieiki
gets 900k with her Single target! Both of those damage counts are Unbuffed for me Undebuffed on the enemies while using 1F foes for the best idea of what each can do. By that I mean, more accurate damage results using 1Fs trash compared to say.... Final Boss :V

Remilia is a definite Jeigan. Her damage doesn't scale as well compared to the other characters later on in the game.

Re:
Siki's Last Judgment
Quote
Ghaloen, I was just doing a quick test of what each could do with nothing extra effecting dmg past the minimal DEF stats of 1F foes. In the moring/within the next few minute, I will do a similar test on the highest floor I can access, and I will also toss buffs into the mix after that.

The point is, Last Judgment ignores MND and will almost always do the same damage to any foe, 1F or not. Using, say, Trial of Ten Kings is a lot fairer as it actually DOES hit MND. Prowling Punishment is also a good skill to test with, as it is not only more practical to use than Ten Kings but is actually a superior version of Komachi's Narrow Confines of Avici.

Re:
Siki's delay
Quote
Sikieiki's
attacks have monster delay however, and her speed is nothing special. Remi on the other hand is quite fast, and her attacks have ordinary delay.

It's really just Last Judgment and Prowling Punishment with a debilitating 8500. However, Ten Kings has a tolerable 6000! Only issue is that huge-ass SP cost on
Siki
resources... Yeah... However, you must take into consideration that
Siki
will no doubt definitely be outdamaging Remi. Even with buffs, Remi can do comparable damage, but
Siki
's attack formula is just overall superior, and has the benefit of Last Judgment. She's definitely a lot better than Remi objectively, comparing the two from a post-game standpoint. It's better to say Remi is a superior tank, though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 06, 2010, 08:49:09 AM
I totally want to theorycraft this purely from a math POV, factoring in character speed, damage formulas, attack/mag growth rates, and leveling curves.. But there are 2 things holding me back.

1: The whole "modifier grows each level even if you don't spend points in skillpoints or pump up the stat in question using your level up bonus".. I mean functorial pointed this out to me and I totally would not have known better, but he also said it was 2% according to some site, and fact is, I'm just not getting 2%..I don't want to start making up numbers to compensate.

2: Skillpoint costs are a factor which seem to have arbitrary values. This can be worked around purely from slow painstaking gameplay analysis, however I don't really want to bother until I am sure about everything else first.

Trying to figure out what to use for "standard enemy def/mnd" values will also be tough. I think I'll just make up values based on numbers that I get from from non-level grinded playthrus. Try and collect data from every type of defense-level enemy (feeble defense ones, who I suspect have none, such as orb's physical defense, weak defense (sorceress enemies), medium (knights), high (djinn, supreme one. or whatever they are called, etc), and wall-class (beldmyr, those stupid crabs on 27F, yellow kings, etc).

Also, does anybody know the % chance of Thundercloud Stickleback to cause par is? it's not 300% >=P
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 06, 2010, 10:45:39 AM
Also, does anybody know the % chance of Thundercloud Stickleback to cause par is? it's not 300% >=P

I'm pretty sure anything that causes PAR has the same success rate, which would be entirely based on the target's PAR resistance.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 06, 2010, 03:08:54 PM
I'm pretty sure anything that causes PAR has the same success rate, which would be entirely based on the target's PAR resistance.
And same with PSN and SIL, too. DTH is the only one where hit chance is affected by the power of the DTH effect.

Also, skill point costs increase by a certain percent each skill level or something, it says so on the Jap wiki. But yes, the starting value doesn't correspond to anything, its just whatever number they felt like sticking in. Generally though, a character's better stats cost less to raise.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 06, 2010, 03:11:19 PM
Beat Alice and with her Floor 4! /o/

Alice was really... easy. Which surprised me as I've heard she's like impossible.  :V
I guess the poison and Patchy being able to use Royal Flare four times before running out of SP really helped.
Silence is a pretty bullshitty status affect though. Luckely, Meiling can cure it and I gave her some necklace which prevents herself from getting silenced.

Just a question: How effective is poison? I've seen that it is devastating on my own team. Does it work the same way on the enemies?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 06, 2010, 03:18:48 PM
Just a question: How effective is poison? I've seen that it is devastating on my own team. Does it work the same way on the enemies?

Poison mechanics is universal to every move.

However, PC Poison varies wildly in terms of damage, as it runs off an individual Poison stat on the attack with Poison attached.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 06, 2010, 03:22:14 PM
Wriggle's massive PSN-120 on her Comet on Earth should be dealing pretty good damage though, especially if you switch her in to renew it every now and then. PSN slowly wears off, dealing less damage until it disappears.

It makes Wriggle pretty nifty because you can just do one attack with her and then switch her out, and it keeps dealing more damage for quite awhile. Butterfly Storm also does okay damage, and her defensive stats/status resistances are pretty good.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 06, 2010, 04:25:28 PM
I'll hack around with stat level up ratings. I'm sure it's not any arbitrary numbers.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 06, 2010, 05:31:42 PM
I'll hack around with stat level up ratings. I'm sure it's not any arbitrary numbers.
Cirno and Wriggle's stats all cost the exact same amount to level up (everything that isn't TP or affinity), and I mean, Cirno has good SPD craptastic DEF/MND and lowish ATK/MAG, why would they all cost the same? :/

Other examples too, that I'm just too lazy to go get  :V

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 06, 2010, 06:23:51 PM
ALSO, just fixed typo with 9F optional. Her Optic Camo boosts DEF/MND/SPD by 50% each, not 33% and 15% SPD. In the 2.05+ patches, she should actually be a pretty nice character with that buff and the massively stronger Megawatt.
She's a good character now, most just don't know how to use her apparently. >.>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 06, 2010, 06:28:59 PM
She's a good character now, most just don't know how to use her apparently. >.>
Two of her attacks are nice for floor clearing (and okay against bosses weak against their element), but her nuke really isn't that great compared to basically anyone actually meant for nuking. And she's frail, buff or not, so without good nuking damage she really isn't worth it compared to Youmu or Yuugi, physical nukers with great HP/Def and better damage.

Even worse when comparing her to other frail nukers like Patch and Suwako, who do significantly better damage with their nukes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 06, 2010, 07:05:35 PM
Dammnnnn Kaguya's Foe is hard.

At least I got Orin on my second try. >_>;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Rikter on February 06, 2010, 09:49:55 PM
Is it just me or does Floor 4 have less dangerous random encounters than Floor 3.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 06, 2010, 10:06:11 PM
I can fight both Dual Hibachi Ver.2  AND Serpent... Can someone give me stats on them? That or a link to a place that has stats on them at very least?

Final Plus Disk floor trash is truely a bunch of trash. They fall like leaves in some cases and other are minor problems.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 06, 2010, 10:57:36 PM
Good news: I have enough BP to take Kaguya home.

Bad news: KAGUYA'S FOE WUT. I hate this boss type. X(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 06, 2010, 11:01:34 PM
It's a F.O.E. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 06, 2010, 11:02:10 PM
Good news: I have enough BP to take Kaguya home.

Bad news: KAGUYA'S FOE WUT. I hate this boss type. X(
Have at least 2 big tanks and 2 healers. I highly recommend Meiling is a tank for this because her self-heal greatly helps. The 2 healers will prob. be Reimu and Sanae (since you don't use Minoriko).

Give each of the tanks a LOVE Machine thing (FIR+122 or somesuch) and they should be able to survive Flowing Hellfire. The most important thing is for them to be able to survive the next one, so quickly switch in a healer or two after you get Hellfire'd, and preferable a nuker. After 2 or 3 turns, you usually want to have everyone who isn't a tank get switched out.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 06, 2010, 11:49:33 PM
I can fight both Dual Hibachi Ver.2  AND Serpent... Can someone give me stats on them? That or a link to a place that has stats on them at very least?

Final Plus Disk floor trash is truely a bunch of trash. They fall like leaves in some cases and other are minor problems.

Ask and you shall receive (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Chaos_Mirror_Forums/index.php?showtopic=805), I made this a few weeks ago

Also, 30F trash is only trash if you're level 800+

Are you level 800+?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 12:40:45 AM
Also, skill point costs increase by a certain percent each skill level or something, it says so on the Jap wiki. But yes, the starting value doesn't correspond to anything, its just whatever number they felt like sticking in. Generally though, a character's better stats cost less to raise.

It says that on the japanese wiki? Does it elaborate more?  I tried hunting for such info but it really was impossible for me to comprehend.

I don't think it's so simple though. While the starting value does seem relatively arbitrary, the growth rates are not fixed either. As I mentioned before, I remember siekieki-however you spell it had the exact same attack (or was it mag? one of them anyway) as keine or Yuka (or both), and had the same cost to increase that stat as well, for like 3 skill levels, then it started costing more. I think it's probably a fixed % that is also arbitrarily chosen for each character, in this case the difference in percent was small enough so that they appeared the same due to rounding.. Or so I hope.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
It says that on the japanese wiki? Does it elaborate more?  I tried hunting for such info but it really was impossible for me to comprehend.

I don't think it's so simple though. While the starting value does seem relatively arbitrary, the growth rates are not fixed either. As I mentioned before, I remember siekieki-however you spell it had the exact same attack (or was it mag? one of them anyway) as keine or Yuka (or both), and had the same cost to increase that stat as well, for like 3 skill levels, then it started costing more. I think it's probably a fixed % that is also arbitrarily chosen for each character, in this case the difference in percent was small enough so that they appeared the same due to rounding.. Or so I hope.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/36.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgm7VmgFhkTzVYFWXyHiH-G6YgN7g

I'd explain it myself, but... errr, its probably best to just read the page. Its strange to try to interpret this stuff.

It does mention, however, that a low level of the skill is not enough to be used as a base.

EDIT:Wrong page. Wait a second >:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www19.atwiki.jp/th_maze/pages/36.html&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhgm7VmgFhkTzVYFWXyHiH-G6YgN7g
THERE WE GO
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Furienify on February 07, 2010, 01:59:24 AM
Just picked it up.

Getting my butt kicked fighting China on the first floor.

Evidently I'm supposed to be switching out allies in fights so that they passively restore SP, but they're doing it at a painfully slow pace so I eventually grind to a halt in any big fight.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 07, 2010, 02:06:17 AM
Evidently I'm supposed to be switching out allies in fights so that they passively restore SP, but they're doing it at a painfully slow pace so I eventually grind to a halt in any big fight.
Yeah, early on you simply don't have enough people with you in order to rely on that as strongly as you can later on.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 03:16:42 AM
Are you level 800+?

Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat
***WINNER***
on my 1st try! Woohoo!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 04:06:49 AM
Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat
***WINNER***
on my 1st try! Woohoo!

Really? I read level 1000 is the reccommended level, which I was starting to believe since the first of the f30 bosses can 1shot me at reimu 370 with some of his moves (not even his most powerful one, not even on his last phase). Hell, some of the trash on Floor 30 can OHKO my tank before anybody can even move!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 04:27:16 AM
Which boss do you mean for floor 30?
Serpent of Chaos or Dual Hibachi Ver.2

Quote
Hell, some of the trash on Floor 30 can OHKO my tank before anybody can even move!

Meanwhile, of the all 30F trash I have fought, I lost I think 2 chars total between 2-3 fights, at level Reimu 370-ish
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 05:04:46 AM
crap, saved over my second game file, anybody know of some kind of backup?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2010, 06:02:08 AM
Kaguya has been taken home. :D Kaguya's foe wasn't so hard once I attached some LOVE on my lolis. Cirno actually has two fire buffs, so she could take the hits really well. Then I just needed Yugi and Reimu to keep tanking the hits and healing before the next hellfire, and... \o/

Now, let's see if Kaguya can prove that Eientei isn't a complete waste of a Touhou family.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 07, 2010, 06:09:47 AM
Nope... I am Reimu 444 or so. I also beat
***WINNER***
on my 1st try! Woohoo!

You are either a dirty dirty liar or you have grinded your skill level WAY too much because I think there's no legitimate way you could possibly beat 30F Middle boss at level 450.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 06:12:03 AM
Now, let's see if Kaguya can prove that Eientei isn't a complete waste of a Touhou family.
Her last 3 attacks ignore MND (Think Dark Side of the Moon with nice damage) and her buff is really nice. Unfortunately, she's like patchy with slightly better stats in exchange for worse MAG/MND, so she's really frail. She can take a minor physical hit unlike Patch, at least.

Her damage isn't particularly awesome (although Hourai Barrage is still pretty strong) but the MND ignoring and her ATB-filling buff are pretty nice.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 07, 2010, 06:33:53 AM
I got her at like the exact same time as Donut, I love her so I'm going to use her no matter what anyone says. :<

Btw Donut, Eirin's pretty good. ;S
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2010, 06:34:57 AM
Eirin never really stood out except for Hourai Elixir. :x

Then again I like barely raised her magic at all so whatever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 06:43:44 AM
Quote
You are either a dirty dirty liar or you have grinded your skill level WAY too much because I think there's no legitimate way you could possibly beat 30F Middle boss at level 450.

I shall fix this to tell what I did :P

Quote
you have grinded your skill level WAY too much

;D Can you say upper hundred in skill levels? Cause I sure as heck can! :))
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 06:46:03 AM
Eirin's low level up speed means she isn't great for tanking as she looks (Aka, she can't), her heal is always 50% so it can't heal like Minoriko or even Sanae's can, and her attacking capability is fairly sucky too.

On paper, she looks really nice. In execution, she falls below expectation in every manner.

EDIT:Typo fixes, god why am I doing this at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 07, 2010, 06:48:55 AM
;D Can you say upper hundred in skill levels? Cause I sure as heck can! :))

Uh... When I beat him my first time I was Lv700 and my skill levels were Lv1000+...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 07, 2010, 06:57:35 AM
On paper, she looks really nice. In execution, she falls below expectation in every manner.
Eirin works well as "support" in conjunction with Alice for debuffing. Certain debuff weak bosses e.g.
-foo- Foe
,
Great Stamp
and
Yukari
come to mind as excellent examples that can be debuffed and potentially stalled "indefinitely" (read: until out of TP).

Eirin can also take hits pretty well, regardless of levels AFAIK. In short, she can be described as your "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" type of character.

18F, Lv84. Don't like this at all.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: scherzo on February 07, 2010, 07:01:03 AM
1: The whole "modifier grows each level even if you don't spend points in skillpoints or pump up the stat in question using your level up bonus".. I mean functorial pointed this out to me and I totally would not have known better, but he also said it was 2% according to some site, and fact is, I'm just not getting 2%..I don't want to start making up numbers to compensate.

I'm afraid this is my fault for copypasting the formula from the jwiki incorrectly...
The correct formula as directly transcribed from the wiki is:
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = ((Lvl+4)*Growth Rate+constant) * corresponding multiplier
i.e.
Atk/Def/Matk/Mdef = (Lvl*Growth Rate+constant) * (1+(Lvl-1)*.02+(Lvlupbonus)*.02+(Skillptlvl-1)*.04+ItemMult)

Earlier I had put the constant outside, which would cause the value given by the formula to undershoot the actual value. Does this correction fix your problem?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 07, 2010, 07:04:41 AM
Eirin's low level up speed means she isn't great for tanking as she looks (Aka, she can't)
Lies and slander. With skillpoint distribution into her defenses she can have reasonable durability. Probably not enough for slot 1, but she can last in slot 2 just fine (a place that you can sometimes be strapped for someone to fill... tanky casters like Reimu may not be tanky enough and using another slot 1 tank like Tenshi is a waste of a replacement if the main one runs into trouble). Her defenses and affinities make her perfect for the slot and her healing move is for support more than legitimate healing, since its main draw is the overheal (unless one of your tanks is the deathbitch, in which case you pretty much need her for any kind of reasonable amount of healing on her).

Quote
Nitori stuffs
Ones like Youmu start to lose their steam later on because more and more enemies use magic, which tear them apart and make them really hard to use (why do you think I had to drop mine for the 16F battles?). Yeah, she's nowhere near the big nukers like marisa and patchy would be, but she still hits hard and is one of your many potential options for a damage-dealer. Not the most powerful option in the world, but hey, how many of your options for damage-dealers can nuke as well as patchy?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 07:06:51 AM
Uh... When I beat him my first time I was Lv700 and my skill levels were Lv1000+...

Wat? Now that seems weird... he only KO'ed 3 chars for me, Marisa who was unlucky and got OHKO'ed by a physical, 18F who I let die(read as: I rarely healed this char) >:D and... Remi who got unlucky, like Marisa. My party for the fight, I'll only name who saw action, was Meiling, Remi, 16F, Marisa,
Sikieiki
, Reimu and 18F.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 07, 2010, 07:48:15 AM
Wat? Now that seems weird... he only KO'ed 3 chars for me, Marisa who was unlucky and got OHKO'ed by a physical, 18F who I let die(read as: I rarely healed this char) >:D and... Remi who got unlucky, like Marisa. My party for the fight, I'll only name who saw action, was Meiling, Remi, 16F, Marisa,
Sikieiki
, Reimu and 18F.

I am convinced that we're talking about completely different bosses here.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 08:05:27 AM
Ok well for the record I am refering to
***WINNER***
that I beat 1st try at Reimu Lv 444-ish.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 07, 2010, 08:28:19 AM
Ok well for the record I am refering to
***WINNER***
that I beat 1st try at Reimu Lv 444-ish.

Impossible, because he was not that easy when I fought him at L500. :<
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 08:36:28 AM
I am convinced that we're talking about completely different bosses here.

You sure your skill levels were in the thousands? I'm Reimu 370 right now, and my absolute highest skill levels are only level 230. they cost over 50k skillpoints just to levleup one skill level, per character. The amount of exp it takes reimu to level up is only 1200k. I've been doing nothing but farming floor 27 for like the last 120 levels (more I think actually). My character levels quite simply outpace my skill levels, even though I'm trying to farm liliths as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure high hundreds of skill levels is pretty op for 30F run 1..

BTW mystic, wtf is your skill levels so high, did you cheat to raise them? or did you just grind over and over and for some reason chose NOT to level up regular-style.

Quote
Earlier I had put the constant outside, which would cause the value given by the formula to undershoot the actual value. Does this correction fix your problem?

Not sure, I'll check when I feel more productive, I just deleted my 2nd game at floor 10 by accident, and spent the last 2 hours doing something even less desireable.. Imma just have fun for the rest of the night. I'll check tomorrow though. And thanks again for the info, I really do appreciate it.

Well anyway, I was hoping to complete the game with my 2nd playthru using a mostly different cast. However since it got buhleted I'll just spew out random opinions about the characters I experienced with my 2nd playthru.

I'm curious, does anybody like Iku in this game? She seems pretty underwhelming. Her wind spells seem weaker than Aya's, and Aya's not even a pure nuker, she's more useful for her speed buff. Iku's buff might be good, but I don't see why it has to have normal delay AND that nasty paralize. It's not a great buff even, just attack/mag by 50%. I'd way rather have kaggy or Sanae's buff which improve defense and speed as well, WITHOUT a damn paralize effect. She might have more health than kaggy, but I find her mnd and elemental resists do not compare, so she still seemed very fragile. The fact that all her nukes are the same element doesn't really help her trash utility either.



Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 07, 2010, 08:47:11 AM
Great Stamp is dead.

Flandre isn't too hard except that Forbidden Fruit is way too strong
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 08:55:45 AM
Flandre isn't too hard except that Forbidden Fruit is way too strong

I don't know about you, but for me that sounds pretty silly. She casted that damn spell all the time for me, and hence, was hard.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 07, 2010, 09:18:54 AM
Wanna put up your save game for me? I'll check the stat levels for consistency.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 07, 2010, 09:39:09 AM
Yukari
has been slain.  Interestingly enough, you take her down to below 200k health from 400k, it causes her to use Djinn Storm twice in a row, and I think Barrier Release right after that. 

(Honors for the big damage to go: Komachi for debuffing, Sanae for buffing, Suwako for Croaking Frog eaten by Snake which did just slightly over 100k each time, and Kaguya for letting Suwako act twice in a row).

Remilia is a definite Jeigan. Her damage doesn't scale as well compared to the other characters later on in the game.
I would say the thing about Remilia is that she's sort of a hybrid damage dealer/tank.  Later on you get characters that can outtank her easily or outdamage her easily, and with 12 slots in a party, you can afford to have some specialization.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 10:16:43 AM
Wanna put up your save game for me? I'll check the stat levels for consistency.

Nah thanks, I recorded data on my phone and Imma do it in pretty much nowish.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 10:18:47 AM
Yukari
has been slain.  Interestingly enough, you take her down to below 200k health from 400k, it causes her to use Djinn Storm twice in a row, and I think Barrier Release right after that. 

(Honors for the big damage to go: Komachi for debuffing, Sanae for buffing, Suwako for Croaking Frog eaten by Snake which did just slightly over 100k each time, and Kaguya for letting Suwako act twice in a row).
I would say the thing about Remilia is that she's sort of a hybrid damage dealer/tank.  Later on you get characters that can outtank her easily or outdamage her easily, and with 12 slots in a party, you can afford to have some specialization.

I still find that Remi doesn't get outdamaged easily, she's fast unlike most hard hitters. And she can always maintain a good buff. Other people can't except for chen, whose buff doesn't help in the survival department. I truly think most people think other peopel do damage simply cuz they see bigger numbers, but they don't factor in their speed and delay.. I'm sure other characters can do better damage yes, but easily? eerrr...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 07, 2010, 10:35:54 AM
Nah thanks, I recorded data on my phone and Imma do it in pretty much nowish.

I meant MystearicaUtsuho's game that people are suspecting.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 10:45:16 AM
I meant MystearicaUtsuho's game that people are suspecting.

FINE thanks for nothing than you pinochio eared swindling bunny-rodent!!!

K, so I leveled up seikieki to 30, spent her level bonus into up, wrote down mnd,def,atk,mag, then leveled her to 100 and did the same thing.
evidently she is a bad example since her mag is greater than her atk, but the wiki indicates otherwise.

Despite this, the formula works accurately for her attack and def(or was it mnd) the other defensive stat was not perfect but it was good enough (like 3 off outta 700ish) I think this is because her constants are floats, but their exact value is unknown, and round error occurs. I also notice that eiki's constants seem unusually small compared to what I thought other characters have. Maybe she is a special case like remi's gimped starting attack stat.

Still I'm satisfied, I'll double check other characters next time I'm on my computer, and if things remain good, I'll be ready to start some number crunching against zero defense theoretical targets, yay...

Btw attack's formula is NOT 1.5(atk - 0.5def).. To be honest I don't know what it is. But I DO know that atk has no multiplier either in or out of the brackets. I figured this by attacking force sparthas and floor 1 fuzzies. Both of which have either 0 or negligable defense. My remi with 110000 atk consistently bit them for 100-122k damage while patchy would hit for within 10% of HER attack.

If remi hit for her attack and had a 1.5 multiplier. That means enemy defense would be high enough to reduce patchy's feeble attacks to 0 but they do not reduce them at all.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 07, 2010, 01:30:46 PM
You sure your skill levels were in the thousands? I'm Reimu 370 right now, and my absolute highest skill levels are only level 230. they cost over 50k skillpoints just to levleup one skill level, per character. The amount of exp it takes reimu to level up is only 1200k. I've been doing nothing but farming floor 27 for like the last 120 levels (more I think actually). My character levels quite simply outpace my skill levels, even though I'm trying to farm liliths as much as possible.

I did not level up regularly, I pumped points into skill levels first
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on February 07, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
I don't know about you, but for me that sounds pretty silly. She casted that damn spell all the time for me, and hence, was hard.
All of the other attacks that she casts do negligible damage or just hit one person :\
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 07, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
Okay, everything has been going pretty smoothly as of now. Beat floor 5 and 6 no sweat. Yuugi is easy once you know her gimmick.
Floor 7 is annoying though, I don't think I've backtracked so much in my life! X_X
Although it did give me a lot of exp, which is pretty nice. The 20 teleporters on the left of the map are a complete dick move.

So I get to the boss. Are you kidding me? His opener is a OHPKO! Not even Meiling can survive it! :<
Also, what's the deal with Nitori? I fought her and won in a random encounter (wtf), talked to her and now I have to find her again as a random encounter on this floor?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 05:20:33 PM
So I get to the boss. Are you kidding me? His opener is a OHPKO! Not even Meiling can survive it! :<
Also, what's the deal with Nitori? I fought her and won in a random encounter (wtf), talked to her and now I have to find her again as a random encounter on this floor?
No, you find her as a random encounter on the next floor :3

Also, if its a 0hko even on Meiling, something is wrong. You can try boosting her DEF/HP/FIR resistance on Meiling and Remi more so they can survive it, or maybe give them equipment with FIR affinity bonuses. You've been using level up bonuses on DEF for Meiling, right? Or at least HP? D:
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 07, 2010, 05:39:33 PM
Yeah, I gave her DEF everytime seeing as that seemed the most logical choice for Meiling.
Raised her DEF to level 20 and now she can barely survive the attack! \o/
To be honest, I have barely been using the magic library.  :V
I'm a bit paranoid about losing skill points it seems.
Although I found out that he can use that attack again and if he does it when Meiling's not at full health I'm screwed. That thing is completely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2010, 05:42:37 PM
Jaimers, the magic library is ESSENTIAL. Later on in the game (as in where I am now), you can raise a characters's magic by 1000 for only about 5000 skill points (which to about 5 battles worth of skill points) if you forgot to raise it much throughout the game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 05:54:33 PM
To be honest, I have barely been using the magic library.  :V
I'm a bit paranoid about losing skill points it seems.
You won't get far with that mindset :X

You really, REALLY need to spend them. Don't worry, even if you mess up, the points you spend now will be a trivial amount once you go up a few floors. The stat boost you get is anything BUT trivial.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 06:03:55 PM
Quote
Jaimers, the magic library is ESSENTIAL.

I am at the end of the plus disk and skill levels let me pwn foes I should be level 800+ or so to pwn, but I was only level 370-ish for Reimu. Me having insane Skill Levels made up for more then 400 actually levels :V At my point, if I give Patchy about 100 Skill levels in DEF, she gains like 5000-6000 DEF, not much DEF compared to chars like Meiling, but every point helps keep Patchy alive ;D

Skill points are Infinate as well Jaimers, if you don't want to spend cause you think the game put a limit on how many you can spend, then don't worry. You can spend as you please and their is no penalty, the worst that could happen is that you might invest in a chars useless/not needed stat, like Remi's MAG or Patchy's ATK, that or you might run low on Skill Points, but you can always get more.

Edit:
Quote
BTW mystic, wtf is your skill levels so high, did you cheat to raise them? or did you just grind over and over and for some reason chose NOT to level up regular-style

I used cheat engine to get tons of skill points... I kinda regret doing so but I was at a point that was "I can either spend a lot of time grinding my butt off and probly add like 10 more hours to my file, or I can use cheat engine to give myself like 50 levels and a lot of skill points... *after about 15 minutes of considering and 3 deaths to
Sikieiki
* Thats it! Cheat engine time" and thus, I gave myself roughly 50-60 levels, like 35 Gold Cloth and I think... 200 Million Skp... a 200M that due to me going rambo, I refilled whenever it got low. I ended up boosting most char that I use to about Lv 260+ in Elemental Affinity's, and the upper hundreds in stats.

Say what you will about me, but I was tired of the Disgaea-like grind-wall with no Disgaea-like grind method. I only used cheat engine when I lost numerous times to a certain boss that I spoiler-marked, I beat the game fair-and-square, without cheat engine.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 06:35:53 PM
Edit:
I used cheat engine to get tons of skill points... I kinda regret doing so but I was at a point that was "I can either spend a lot of time grinding my butt off and probly add like 10 more hours to my file, or I can use cheat engine to give myself like 50 levels and a lot of skill points... *after about 15 minutes of considering and 3 deaths to
Sikieiki
* Thats it! Cheat engine time" and thus, I gave myself roughly 50-60 levels, like 35 Gold Cloth and I think... 200 Million Skp... a 200M that due to me going rambo, I refilled whenever it got low. I ended up boosting most char that I use to about Lv 260+ in Elemental Affinity's, and the upper hundreds in stats.

Say what you will about me, but I was tired of the Disgaea-like grind-wall with no Disgaea-like grind method. I only used cheat engine when I lost numerous times to a certain boss that I spoiler-marked, I beat the game fair-and-square, without cheat engine.
Well you can at least TELL us you did that instead of just going "Oh I beat the secret final boss like 350 levels lower then should be possible" :X

Anyway, finally at the final boss again on my second playthrough. 10 hours faster then last time, whee :3

Lv124 Reimu, hoping to beat the boss at lv130~135 this time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 07:03:15 PM
Well you can at least TELL us you did that

I did just tell you tough :V

Does anyone have the link to version 2.06?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 07, 2010, 07:05:17 PM
After being away and not being able to play for two days, today has been a time of progress. Beat up floor 7 boss thing (sacrificing three weaker characters to the first attack, so that I could have my tank people at full health for the second one), explored the entirety of floors 8 and 9, and recruited
Komachi
,
Suwako
, and
Ran
. Ran into
Nitori
once and lost, but apart from her 1-hit-KO laser she doesn't seem that bad. I'll try fighting her again once I have started exploring floor 10 a bit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
I did just tell you tough :V

Does anyone have the link to version 2.06?
Quote
For people who want the delicious Level-Up Cursor Memory, here is a link to the 2.06 patch. Or also, if you want the New Game+ feature.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DA1DGQZC

Rename the thLaby.exe in this folder to thLaby2.06.exe or something, and copy all this into your game folder, minus the save file.

Whenever you need to level up a single character a ton, start 2.06 so you don't have to scroll down to the correct Level-Up bonus each time, saving a HUUUUGE amount of time for you since now you just spam Z a bunch.

I recommend against actually using 2.06 for casual play however, because of bugs and glitches. The only significant changes anyway are this, Nitori's Megawatt is much stronger, and there is a New Game+ function (Which you can probably activate in 2.06 and then play in 2.04)
There you go~

Activate New Game+ by hitting new game and then it asks you some questions after the cutscene or something. I might try out New Game+ without carrying over anything except character unlocks, so its still actually like playing the game, I just can use Plus-Disk characters and such <3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 09:19:27 PM
There you go~

Activate New Game+ by hitting new game and then it asks you some questions after the cutscene or something. I might try out New Game+ without carrying over anything except character unlocks, so its still actually like playing the game, I just can use Plus-Disk characters and such <3

That's what I plan to do once I start another 2nd game. I noticed my 2nd game was harder than my first because my goal for my 2nd was to pick a party based on who I left out on my first game. On my first game, I might not have known everything about the game, but I still chose my party members semi-wisely. Like I'd snag a character who excelled that which my overall party was lacking, etc. I think I'll try to do a mixture of both for my 3rd, made easier by being able to choose whoever.

semi-early game will be pretty tough though probably since many of the late game characters don't have cheap spells.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2010, 09:20:27 PM
What the hell is with Great Stamp? Nothing seems to work against this guy! And of course, if I lower his speed, he uses his lol total party OHKO move. There's getting to be less and less of floor 16 I can explore without defeating him, so I can't just put him off forever.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 09:24:31 PM
I used the link, downloaded the game, try to run it... and it fails on me epicly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 07, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
What the hell is with Great Stamp? Nothing seems to work against this guy! And of course, if I lower his speed, he uses his lol total party OHKO move. There's getting to be less and less of floor 16 I can explore without defeating him, so I can't just put him off forever.
Debuff SPD = Game Over.
Just keep debuffing ATK and you should be able to survive without anybody getting KO'd.

Also, 18F shenanigans.
Seems to be immune to Statuses and Debuffs
. More experimentation!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 07, 2010, 09:25:05 PM
What the hell is with Great Stamp? Nothing seems to work against this guy! And of course, if I lower his speed, he uses his lol total party OHKO move. There's getting to be less and less of floor 16 I can explore without defeating him, so I can't just put him off forever.

Lots of people have problems with that boss. I personally found it the easiest of the 3, the other 2 being
yukari and flandre
, but it was still definately the first major grind time for me in the game. After you beat them, the home stretch is excellent...minus that bs cosmic boss.

Debuff SPD = Game Over.
Just keep debuffing ATK and you should be able to survive without anybody getting KO'd.

Also, 18F shenanigans.
Seems to be immune to Statuses and Debuffs
. More experimentation!

Seems like every boss is immune to statuses for me.. I'm serious, I don't know why people always mention them. I used Alice on like every fight in my first playthru, and there were a grand total of like 3 bosses where they worked on, wooot. I must have terrible luck with them or something.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 09:31:49 PM
Also, 18F shenanigans.
Seems to be immune to Statuses and Debuffs
. More experimentation!
Sure is.
The Fire Form is the least dangerous and has no status afflicting moves, try to keep attacking everything else but just heal and focus on that one.

Keep in mind each form is weak to something, WND is weak to NTR and vice versa, FIR-CLD, MYS-SPI.

The SPI form can cause DTH status but thankfully you should just need one Master Spark to kill it.

Once you reach his last phase, Nuke it. Quickly. With anyone you have, and that sure better include an optimal Master Spark.

Other then that, 18F boss isn't too hard, just keep defense buffs up and have 2~3 tanking characters. I used Meiling/Remi/16F out on the first 3 slots the entire battle and it worked wonders, never switched out Meiling or Remi and only switched 16F out once or twice.


I used the link, downloaded the game, try to run it... and it fails on me epicly.

EDIT:ASDghsdfghsdf forgot to finish my post wait a second

Okay, move EVERYTHING in that 2.06 into the main game folder. Everything except the save folder. As long as you rename the 2.06 exe, nothing bad will happen from doing this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 07, 2010, 09:39:18 PM
Huh. I was not expecting that.

My team was on the ropes. I shot off another master spark and Great Stamp was still standing. In desperation for people to bring out, I brought out Sanae, hoping to either buff or heal someone to hope that I can get off another Master Spark. Instead, I decided to use 9 Syllable Stabs to see how much it would do for future fights.

8000~ damage.

Great Stamp dies.

Wut.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 07, 2010, 10:02:44 PM
Update:
Took the last remaining 12F char home finally. Details here:

Now, you see, its reasons like this I tell people certain characters don't suck. Eirin was my key slot 2 in all the fight, as she often overhealed Tenshi (who never left slot 1) and Reimu to keep Flowing Hellfire from hurting too badly. When her SP began to run low I swapped her in for Meiling, who effectively served the same purpose minus the overheal, who would then get swapped for Eirin once SHE ran low on SP. The only casulties in the fight were Marisa, who died prepping a spark, and Sanae, because I was stupid and didn't swap her out before the boss's attack phase despite having the chance to do so (I Miracle Fruit'd Meiling instead to help her tank and heal better, which in retrospect she probably didn't need). Mokou was dropped for Eirin because she couldn't do much damage thanks to the boss's insane fire res, debuff resistances, and Wu not doing enough to satisfy me (it did about Chen-levels of damage, so good but not great without the ability to hit 2 or 3 times in a row), so while she could take Flowing Hellfire best of almost anyone, she couldn't do much since even her Volcano didn't seem to do beyond 8k damage or anything. Meanwhile, Marisa has been dying a lot in boss fights (usually from one move at that), so I'm tempted to drop her for Kaguya, or at least I would if I wasn't so far behind in skillpoint levels and having to start ANOTHER character would just set me behind even further. Yuugi lasted surprisingly well, and her Supernatural Phenominon or however you spell it smacked him pretty well also (since Knockout in Three Steps was fire-based and therefore did laughable damage). Nitori was interesting, because while most of the time she had less than 200 HP left due to barely surviving a Flowing Hellfire, she was always able to let loose a Megawatt for a nice amount of damage and one of the two tanks would swap her out immediately after, which not only kept her alive but compensated for its gastly cooldown phase. Patchouli and Chen did their usual thing, while Orin's Former Hell's Needle Mountain and natural fire defenses proved amazingly effective.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 10:15:40 PM
Epic victory is Epic Donut ;D

Quote
As long as you rename the 2.06 exe

Ummmm... which file is that and what do I name it?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 10:30:52 PM
Epic victory is Epic Donut ;D

Ummmm... which file is that and what do I name it?
I just mean the executable file for 2.06. Like, the one you run to start the game. Since you don't want to play it in 2.06 all the time because of glitches, you don't wanna overwrite the 2.04 executable you've been using till now.

So, rename the 2.06 "thLabyrinth.exe" to whatever you want so they can both be in the folder and everything is just hunky dory~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 07, 2010, 10:47:40 PM
Ok, things are good. Thanks big for your help... do you know what each choice on the NG+ is? Preferably in order :) Also, what happens to a char if I recruit them while using them? Like what happens to Meiling if I recruit her while using her?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 07, 2010, 10:51:20 PM
Ok, things are good. Thanks big for your help... do you know what each choice on the NG+ is? Preferably in order :) Also, what happens to a char if I recruit them while using them? Like what happens to Meiling if I recruit her while using her?
...I have no idea. 8D

Also, if you recruit a new character while playing 2.04 and not 2.06, I hear it sets that character to lv1.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 07, 2010, 11:11:44 PM
I still find that Remi doesn't get outdamaged easily, she's fast unlike most hard hitters. And she can always maintain a good buff. Other people can't except for chen, whose buff doesn't help in the survival department. I truly think most people think other peopel do damage simply cuz they see bigger numbers, but they don't factor in their speed and delay.. I'm sure other characters can do better damage yes, but easily? eerrr...

Maybe it's a difference in playstyle, but when I'm thinking of attackers, I'm thinking of the glass-cannon ones that are really hitting hard (Patchy, Marisa, Chen,
Suwako, Flandre
), all of whom will be dealing more damage than Remilia usually.  The rest of my party is either tanks or support.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 07, 2010, 11:19:01 PM
After spending quite a bit of time running around the giant maze on floors 10-12 (and getting more and more annoyed at those super-fast top things), I decided to give the
Nitori
battle another try. Ended up beating her right away, even though I forgot to bring Meiling. Did I just get lucky, or does she always aim the laser at the character in the first slot?

Then, I went back to check on
Sanae
, and ended up getting destroyed in one attack by the boss thing that appeared in her place... But seriously, is that just a repeat of the 7F boss?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 12:03:26 AM
Yoshicookie, that attack is used on whoever is furthest left, every time. This is similar to how trash target your party, just trash prefers those on the left over those on the right, but could still hit the 4th slot char if your unlucky.

Also, I'm on my 2nd playthrough :toot: and I seem to have only picked "carry over characters" and "carry over items". I already beat Hong Meiling :3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 08, 2010, 12:07:46 AM
After spending quite a bit of time running around the giant maze on floors 10-12 (and getting more and more annoyed at those super-fast top things), I decided to give the
Nitori
battle another try. Ended up beating her right away, even though I forgot to bring Meiling. Did I just get lucky, or does she always aim the laser at the character in the first slot?
If memory serves she always fires at the first slot. As such, its usually best to have someone with high HP there since the move is capable of piercing pretty well (assuming it follows the same formula the player version does, of course).

Quote
Then, I went back to check on
Sanae
, and ended up getting destroyed in one attack by the boss thing that appeared in her place... But seriously, is that just a repeat of the 7F boss?
Yes, except he can use Flowing Hellfire as often as he darn well feels like it. Have lots of fire resistance prepped if you can.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Inactive person on February 08, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
Ok, things are good. Thanks big for your help... do you know what each choice on the NG+ is? Preferably in order :) Also, what happens to a char if I recruit them while using them? Like what happens to Meiling if I recruit her while using her?

First choice is every character, second is save skill points (only the main 5 character's skill points will carry over if you picked no on your first choice), the last one is save your items (items equipped on your characters in previous data will not be carried over)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 12:35:41 AM
Having all the characters from the start sounds good on paper, but many of the later-game characters have high-SP cost attacks, so many of them will be unusable until later anyway. :\
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 08, 2010, 12:41:28 AM
Oh yeah, baby! 15F optional taken down with the same party that took the last one~

What do you know? Literally the ONLY casulty from the fight was Marisa, because her Master Spark did total crap for damage to the boss even fully charged... Seriously, why has she gotten so terrible lately? If she doesn't die attempting to charge up her Master Spark she dies after it does terrible damage... I can understand Orin and Nitori outdamaging her so severely since their moves are all physical and Flan has low defense, but Silent Selene did much, much more damage... Does boss Flandre have that much MYS res?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 12:46:46 AM
Does boss Flandre have that much MYS res?
Yes. She really does.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: DracoOmega on February 08, 2010, 01:31:14 AM
Clearly I'm going to have to adjust something. I've now reached floor 16, and am getting (not-infrequently) my entire party wiped out in a single round (sometimes before more than 1 person can even act). What level might one expect for defensive stats at this point? (My average party level is around 60)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 08, 2010, 01:51:48 AM
Also, I'm on my 2nd playthrough :toot: and I seem to have only picked "carry over characters" and "carry over items". I already beat Hong Meiling :3

Seems like everyone who played and got far/beat this game started a 2nd game right away. Truly I have never seen an RPG so damn good where everyone wants to start over immediately after beating it >=P.
I know if this was any other game I'd call it quits after accidently deleting my 2nd game, but no, gonna do it again >=P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 02:23:19 AM
I noticed something odd about character stats on my 2nd play, specifically ailment resist, SP Recovery rate and elemental affinity. All the chars on the 2nd last page have the same ailment resists and affinities as each other while everyone on the last page has the same resists and affinities as each other. Any reason for this?

this oddity at work on my file:

This spoiler tag will mention every char from floor 14+ that isn't Plus Disk so please beware...
My Mokou's Resists and SP Recovery are currently all 18 with her affinities being like so: FIR 118, CLD 125, WND 119, NTR 114, MYS 126, SPI 124. Meanwhile my Orin, Flandre, Kaguya, Suika, Yuyuko, Yukari and Rinnosuke all have the exact same layout in those exact areas, but thier stats don't seem odd at all and seem to match up with what they should be at level 3-4.

Anyone have any idea why this happened? I could take screen shots to prove this... but someone would need to tell me how I take a screen shot cause I never learned how/I never found out how...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 08, 2010, 02:25:50 AM
I use print screen on the keyboard, then open up paint or photoshop or whatever you use, and ctrl-V to paste.
With this game I sometimes get just black. Dunno why, only sometimes.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 02:49:50 AM
Seems like everyone who played and got far/beat this game started a 2nd game right away. Truly I have never seen an RPG so damn good where everyone wants to start over immediately after beating it >=P.
I know if this was any other game I'd call it quits after accidently deleting my 2nd game, but no, gonna do it again >=P.
Heck, I think I'll even do a THIRD playthrough after I get to New Game+. I've never done that. Several games I've played through twice, and maybe two games I went about 1/3 through a third time. But this game is just too good.

Of course, I'll probably set limitations on myself to make the game harder. Maybe I'll even make a youtube account and upload the videos, that time! I should start planning how I'll make it harder x3

I suppose I could one of these things:Sub-Par team (with the help of New Game+ char unlock), No Equipment, Limited character amount(as in, less then 12), and I'd probably limit myself to only one set team.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 03:19:07 AM
Ok, I got some screen shots showing the oddity, but I have no clue on how to put the pic into a message, and even if I did know how the pics all have later-game chars in them, so if I posted them, that would be spoiler-tastic.

Any solutions to the problems?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 04:11:46 AM
Just reached Yukari, got to her third phase my first try. If she didn't take out all my heavy hitters in the first phase I would have had a fair chance at beating her. As it stands perhaps I should grind a bit before fighting her again...

EDIT: ...Wow, for all the hype, I was NOT expecting to beat Yukari my second try. Suwako's Croaking Frog dealt over 60k damage a hit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 07:08:39 AM
Oooookay, I think my team defeated Yukari a bit sooner than the game expected, because the floor 17 enemies are thrashing me significantly more than a new floor of enemies normally would. My team is in their mid 60s to mid 70s. Any tips on the enemies in this floor? Also, is it just me, or is Yukari not near as useful as she was making herself out to be? :[
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 08, 2010, 07:19:07 AM
Also, is it just me, or is Yukari not near as useful as she was making herself out to be? :[
It's all in how you invest the Skill Points and Ability usage.

17/18F takes things up a few notches I suppose. Tips? Outspeed them. 180+ SPD should do it for 17F. Though, it all depends on whether those characters have enough firepower to take them out as well. Other than that, I don't have much insight, unless you want specific monster tips.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 07:31:50 AM
Outspeeding them alone pretty much does nothing but guarantee I can run from them, rather than getting completely party killed before anyone gets to move. >_> Tips on individual monsters would be great.

I'm grinding on floor 16 for now, since even though floor 17 gives about 2000 more EXP per fight, I actually LIVE through more than one fight on floor 16.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 08, 2010, 07:35:55 AM
My advice? Chen abuse to run to floor 18. It gets much more manageable there, IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 08, 2010, 07:43:26 AM
Oooookay, I think my team defeated Yukari a bit sooner than the game expected, because the floor 17 enemies are thrashing me significantly more than a new floor of enemies normally would. My team is in their mid 60s to mid 70s. Any tips on the enemies in this floor? Also, is it just me, or is Yukari not near as useful as she was making herself out to be? :[
I haven't used her much myself, but she seems much more like a supporter in boss fights than an attacker.

Also, if you want to make grinding easier, you could put Flandre in your party and then manipulate it so that her speed is just slightly lower than everyone else's.  Laevatein + the rest of your party's attacks should wreck mobs pretty easily.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 08:16:43 AM
I haven't beaten Flandre yet. >_> She does so much damage not even Tenshi after her 100% defense buff can survive more than one hit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 08, 2010, 08:23:14 AM
I haven't beaten Flandre yet. >_> She does so much damage not even Tenshi after her 100% defense buff can survive more than one hit.

Yukari must have gone easy on you damn. Yukari could 1shot anybody including Tenshi with a buffed insect swarm or flying swallow thing or whatever the heck that row attack that makes these torpedos launch from a portal from the left side to the screen to the right is after her big phase 3 buff.

I also had a hard time with her because I don't know about you, but I swore the computer knew when to use that stupid move that made my action bar goto 0, and on who.. Like "zomg I need to heal my whole party, gogo reimu" *yukari blows reimu's ap guage to 0 from 99% full* ARRRGH

You have no idea how often she did that. She TOTALLY knew who to screw up like that. ARGH
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 08, 2010, 08:30:24 AM
Yoshicookie, that attack is used on whoever is furthest left, every time. This is similar to how trash target your party, just trash prefers those on the left over those on the right, but could still hit the 4th slot char if your unlucky.
Wait... So the random encounter enemies does that too? I never noticed... Though then again, I usually manage to get rid of most of them (ARGH stupid demon top things) before they attack.

If memory serves she always fires at the first slot. As such, its usually best to have someone with high HP there since the move is capable of piercing pretty well (assuming it follows the same formula the player version does, of course).
Heh. That thing took out anyone in one hit, so I just went with the "sacrifice" strategy, placed some unimportant character there, and used the other three to take her out before she could fire it more than twice.

Yes, except he can use Flowing Hellfire as often as he darn well feels like it. Have lots of fire resistance prepped if you can.
Oh god. Given how much trouble I had staying alive against the predictable 7F version, I think I'll wait with this one until I've finished the 10-12F maze.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 08:32:33 AM
She MUST have gone easy on me, because I never saw that attack. :V I'm really not complaining. Really though, she seemed to be fairly easy. Cirno just needed to debuff her speed, Reimu needed to heal everyone, and Suwako and Yugi's combined forces took about 1/7 of her health per round. The only hard parts were the Djinn storms, but I just needed to do a bunch of switching to speed everyone's recovery. Also I killed her before she ever buffed herself with IN Quadruple Barrier.

It must be because she knows I love her~ ;)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2010, 09:05:09 AM
Weak. Flan can kill her before she even makes the first release. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 08, 2010, 09:34:18 AM
I haven't beaten Flandre yet. >_> She does so much damage not even Tenshi after her 100% defense buff can survive more than one hit.
Advice: Don't bring Marisa into that fight. Absolutely NOTHING she can do will deal reasonable damage, including her full-power Master Spark. >.>
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 08, 2010, 09:36:45 AM
Weak. Flan can kill her before she even makes the first release. :V

Yeah, very true. Flan is ridiculously holy shit what the fuck broken.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 08, 2010, 09:42:22 AM
Yeah, very true. Flan is ridiculously holy shit what the fuck broken.
Didn't someone earlier in the topic say they were using her to tank with? =V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 08, 2010, 10:00:46 AM
Didn't someone earlier in the topic say they were using her to tank with? =V

u mad

Admittedly, Flan's DEF growth is simply below average. Her MND is just complete shit though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2010, 10:25:58 AM
Didn't someone earlier in the topic say they were using her to tank with? =V

Meatshield like Komachi.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 12:25:23 PM
Ooooook... I see that no one is using spoiler tags... why? Is it a "no one cares :V" bit or is everyone just lazy?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 08, 2010, 01:17:10 PM
Oh god. Given how much trouble I had staying alive against the predictable 7F version, I think I'll wait with this one until I've finished the 10-12F maze.

Actually, the "whenever he feels like it" part is untrue. All the Foe enemies always follow the pattern of Flowing Hellfire -> 3x (Tackle or Slash) -> repeat. The problem comes if the AI roulette chooses to Tackle or Slash an empty spot due to someone dying, in which case it'll choose another move and target, but it still counts towards the pattern despite the move never going off at all.

In other words, if you can keep characters in the 4 main slots during every one of his turns, he'll (usually) follow the pattern. If you ever leave a slot open during his attack, you're leaving it up to chance whether it changes his pattern or not.

The fact that some of
Orin's
moves does not have this "retargeting" is what makes the game crash on her sometimes if you leave open slots in your party. It's also why if you use
Tenshi
to sole tank and switching in damagers during safe periods method against her, sometimes she'll completely skip 1 or more of the 2 initial
Cats Walks
that she always does with a full party out.

This might change during low health period though, that part I'm not sure of.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 01:23:29 PM
You beat her... 15 levels below when I did... ;-;

Also, the way I use her is as a tank. I spent all her level up bonuses on MND she its even better then Patchy's (aka GOD LEVEL). Comine that with her party buff and she's nigh invulnerable to magic, plus with decent HP/DEF.

Spiriting Away and Mesh of Light&Darkness(For SPD down/PAR) are pretty useful when she isn't buffing or focusing, although the former is a mass SP cost and you better just switch her out for a sec so she can move again before an eternity passed. Against random encounters, those are STILL the two useful moves, because since I didn't spend her level ups on MAG she can't really deal damage for me.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2010, 01:38:34 PM
Ooooook... I see that no one is using spoiler tags... why? Is it a "no one cares :V" bit or is everyone just lazy?

Mostly lazy noobs. The folks from the first thread are pretty much past spoilers since we're on our second playthrough/doing research. It was spoiler tags for all characters beyond Yuugi.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 01:45:42 PM
Ok. Also, how do I post pictures on MotK? I have pics showing a... problem I guess would be the word for it. The problem is in Labyrinth of course :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2010, 02:02:13 PM
Upload it somewhere and link it. Follow the normal rules (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=17.0) for posting pics.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 03:12:33 PM
I should ask: What element is starbow break? If I can buff that resistance, maybe I can survive it.

Quote
You beat her... 15 levels below when I did... ;-;

I'm also 15 levels underleveled. ;-;
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 03:37:17 PM
If I remember correctly, Starbow has no element. I think it's just a powerful physical move. I could be wrong though :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 08, 2010, 05:25:30 PM
Any tips for fighting
Tenshi
? Most of my characters can't even hurt her, and she likes to kill off the ones who can (Marisa, Patchy, Rumia, and
Nitori
) with
Sword of Rapture or World-Creating Press
, which none of them can take even with the combined buffs of Reimu and
Ran
. Everything goes mostly fine until I get to a point where I simply run out of meat shields to switch in while my damage-dealers recover SP...

I also tried fighting the boss trio of F12, which didn't go very well either. Trying to keep everyone healed while getting attacked by three people simultaneously doesn't seem like the easiest task.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 08, 2010, 06:41:12 PM
YES! I beat the damn thing!  ;D
Killed it with a last ditch effort Master Spark, which was pretty awesome.
MS does less damage than Silent Selene.  :V
I guess I need more sp before it becomes ridiculously powerfull?

Grinded 1-2 levels, spend all my skillpoints and gave Remilia and Meiling some bomb rings before the battle so they could survive the deathwave. After that it was just a matter of getting everyone else the hell out of dodge when he was about to use his deathwave, which I noticed has a pattern to it.
I haven't said it yet, but the music on floor 7 is fucking awesome.

Anyway, what's the highest anyone has gotten their encounter meter? I got mine to 92% once.  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jyazen on February 08, 2010, 06:56:27 PM
I've got till 108.4% before. I went "Wha-?" and took a screenshot before getting an encounter the very next step, lol.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 08, 2010, 07:18:28 PM
I've gone up to about 108% as well.  The -actual- chances of getting an encounter on a given step is actually 50 less than what it displays; so 52% is only a 2% chance that your step will trigger an encounter.  As a result, obscene luck could theoretically have a displayed encounter rate of roughly 150% (no idea if it would display beyond for like a half second or something).


YCZ, come back to try to fight her once you complete the lockdown, is my suggestion.  At that point, focus on keeping her from doing... well... anything... by massively dropping her speed (She's pretty slow regardless) and keeping her in paralysis lockdown.  Also try reducing her DEF and MND as opposed to buffing your attacks, for once - Komachi's damn good for this.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 08, 2010, 07:59:29 PM
I have finished the whole failsafe locks quest, if that was what you were wondering. I tried your advice by keeping her paralysed with Cirno and
Yuugi
while having
Komachi
lower her stats, and things were going pretty well until she pulled out Violent Motherland and wiped my party (including Meiling and
Komachi
, both with full health and three One Million Holy Boards defense buffs)... I guess I just need to level up some more?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 08, 2010, 08:29:53 PM
I've gone up to about 108% as well.  The -actual- chances of getting an encounter on a given step is actually 50 less than what it displays; so 52% is only a 2% chance that your step will trigger an encounter.  As a result, obscene luck could theoretically have a displayed encounter rate of roughly 150% (no idea if it would display beyond for like a half second or something).

That's why I said set your encounter to 200% if you want to speedgrind. Walking around while the thing is at 100 and over is embarrassing. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 08, 2010, 09:08:08 PM
Yoshicookie, that boss is difficult if only due to it's high DEF and MND count. If you can defeat the 12F boss, you should be able to defeat this boss as well :D if you can't beat the 12F boss, then grinding awaits :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 09:32:26 PM
YES! I beat the damn thing!  ;D
Killed it with a last ditch effort Master Spark, which was pretty awesome.
MS does less damage than Silent Selene.  :V
I guess I need more sp before it becomes ridiculously powerfull?
Having more SP will boost the damage, yeah. But the main thing that will help is having Marisa use Concentrate 3 times and then have someone switch her out; then she'll be in the back with 97% MAG buff and recharging to full SP! It's AWESOME then. Good for either switching her in/out for 1 turn super nukes, or nuking a final phase.

I'm also 15 levels underleveled. ;-;
And considering 16F and up is where its not obscenely rare to game over in a random battle, you'll really need to fix that soon, eheh~

15F is better for grinding then 16F, by the way. Basically the same exp/skill points and much easier battles. Ditto for 17~18F, 17F is better if you need to grind for 18F boss. Because you'll just get damage raped by that boss if you're underleveled, and the battle takes too long to possibly get THAT lucky.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 08, 2010, 10:08:25 PM
Tips on individual monsters would be great.
From what I gathered:
AC - Battle
~60k HP? Don't bother outspeeding. High DEF low MND. SPI resistant.
AC - Magic
~40k HP? Something you want to outspeed. Low DEF? SPI resistant.
AC - Holy
~40k HP? Ridiculously annoying support that needs to die first; better if they all die at the same time though. SPI resistant.
Gold Sorceress
~40k HP? SPI Resistant.
Gold Knight
~60k HP. Just a general meat shield of sorts I guess. Somewhat FIR resistant.
Dimension
~40k HP. Rather low DEF. MYS Resistant.
Will o' Wisp
~25k HP. WND, SPI Resistant, MAG Weak.
Spirit Crystallization
~40k HP. Generally, run from this if you enter the battle without any capacity to kill them. Very high MND. Also WND Resistant.

I do not claim the above is correct in any way; there are assumptions. I feel there are parts missing though. Mainly because I didn't do a full experiment of every (type of) attack possible.

I'm also 15 levels underleveled. ;-;
No you're not. :dealwithit Man it up.
If this is about taking out Yukari at Lv70, consider yourself within the "recommended range"; it turns out that it was very possible at that Lv to begin with, seeing my "easily reproducible" results at Lv75
.

Also 'nut, use spoiler tags FFS. You can't be that lazy, right? Or did you get that trait from a certain person as well?

I hate restarting 18F "Bitch" each time
Scarlet Gold Sword
just hits a 3rd or 4th slot character at the start.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 08, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Oh crap, I think I messed up. :S
I gave
Komachi
ATK the entire time as level-up bonus, while I now see that HP would have been much better.

Did I screw myself over? D:
I still have a save from right before fighting the F7 boss, but I would rather not face this asshole again. Plus, mapping F8 took like an hour.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 11:25:36 PM
Oh crap, I think I messed up. :S
I gave
Komachi
ATK the entire time as level-up bonus, while I now see that HP would have been much better.

Did I screw myself over? D:
I still have a save from right before fighting the F7 boss, but I would rather not face this asshole again. Plus, mapping F8 took like an hour.
Well, you could either go for an ATK Komachi (Scythe that chooses the dead should be fairly nice, right?) or just don't use Komachi.

Her tanking ability is greatly reduced by the fact that, while she is potentially the hardest to 0hko, she is guarenteed to take big damage from everything and so cannot stay out long without constant Minoriko pampering. All your other tanking characters should be taking low to zero damage from most (Read:Most, definitely not all) attacks with some buffs on them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 08, 2010, 11:35:18 PM
I've never much understood the point for spoiler tags. >_> By that logic, why don't we use spoiler tags every time we refer to a boss in the shooters?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 08, 2010, 11:46:01 PM
I've never much understood the point for spoiler tags. >_> By that logic, why don't we use spoiler tags every time we refer to a boss in the shooters?
Because it takes like 20 minutes or less to reach the final boss which most people can do on Easy Mode, and as far as Extra goes, basically everyone who would be on this forum knows who the boss is anyway.

Also, where it doesn't really affect the story much in the shooters if you know the boss (as if they have a big story plot anyway), the last three big bosses in thLabyrinth actually can cause spoilers to know.

Although you probably figured it out, haven't you? Don't try to if you haven't, its much more fun if you get surprised. That's the whole point of a good story!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 09, 2010, 04:12:14 AM
Woot! 2F of my 2nd run and battles take forevar~ :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 09, 2010, 05:00:42 AM
I finally tussled my way through floor 17. It actually wasn't near as bad as floor 7, overpowered enemies notwithstanding.

Now it is floor 18.

I know what awaits me on floor 18.

Ze chase begins...

/me cocks shotgun

Also I just beat Flan. Yay.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 09, 2010, 07:22:38 AM
Although you probably figured it out, haven't you? Don't try to if you haven't, its much more fun if you get surprised. That's the whole point of a good story!

7F and 14F-oshit-i-walked-into-a-boss-fight are the best surprises.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 09, 2010, 03:03:19 PM
After about an hour of grinding,
Tenshi
goes down!
Suwako's Iron Ring attack
was probably what made the victory possible, as I think she had the boss paralysed for more than half of the battle... Things were becoming a bit panic-shaped towards the end, when I only had Meiling, Patchy,
Sanae
, and Marisa (who was in reserve) left and she used Focus to prepare a final party-wipe, but I brought in Marisa and brought her down with good ol' Master Spark before she could actually use the move.

And now to try the 12F boss trio again... Hopefully the new character will help, as she seems to be a bit of a tank.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 09, 2010, 03:11:56 PM
Is it just me, or are the enemies in floor 18 much easier than the ones in floor 17? Not only that, but they give a lot more experience.

Anyway, looking forward to finally meeting the floor 18 boss when I get home from school today~ This floor looks like it'll be fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 09, 2010, 03:42:58 PM
Oh god
Tenshi
has great defences. Just tried fighting the 12F bosses again and she didn't take any damage at all (even though I stupidly forgot to equip her with any items=, until the left one went down and the middle one promptly unleashed an attack that did a lethal 3,000 damage to her along with wiping the rest of the party. Note to self: Keep a paralysing character for the final desperation phase.

And approximately how much HP do those two have? It would be nice to know how I should allocate my attacks in order to be able to take them down without too much time of getting destroyed in between.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 09, 2010, 04:43:04 PM
And approximately how much HP do those two have? It would be nice to know how I should allocate my attacks in order to be able to take them down without too much time of getting destroyed in between.

240K    120K    Irrelevant

Spam Royal Flare until Patch is out of SP. By then you should have won.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 09, 2010, 05:14:36 PM
Oh crap, I think I messed up. :S
I gave
Komachi
ATK the entire time as level-up bonus, while I now see that HP would have been much better.

Did I screw myself over? D:
I still have a save from right before fighting the F7 boss, but I would rather not face this asshole again. Plus, mapping F8 took like an hour.

Just start giving her HP from now on and keep going.  You're not totally fucked; a level up bonus put into a stat is actually LESS of a bonus than a single level via Skill Points.  So... yeah.

Besides, some extra ATK for her isn't bad.  She's actually got a fairly good ATK stat, and even if her most useful technique, Narrow Confines, is pretty much shitty for damage regardless, Scythe that Chooses the Dead is actually pretty nicely powerful.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 09, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
18F done at Reimu Lv93.

...Sandbag fest. Also, I never increased any of my characters'
TP so... it felt pressured
. 2 Deaths being Youmu and
Yuugi
.

EDIT: 30 minute battle FFFFF-

Also, pic uploading uploaded. Really strange...
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=384&u=12803292
I was surprised I was able to take that
Scarlet Gold Sword
. Might've been from the small "residual" buffing though left over.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 09, 2010, 09:26:23 PM
I wonder what level Baity'll beat the final boss at. I myself haven't gotten back around to playing thLaby in a few days since reaching 20F but it seems like with the right set up and some luck, you could do it at Reimu 130.

Of course, with all my skillpoint wasting trying out new chars and trying to avoid characters I used on my first play, I'll probably go to lv135~140. It'd be too much luckgarbage for my party at this point, it seems.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 09, 2010, 09:51:42 PM
Spam Royal Flare until Patch is out of SP. By then you should have won.
Then Patchy must be kind of underleveled (she's at level 51), as she ran out of SP before I had even gotten rid of
Reisen
... And with her horrible SP recovery rate, it takes forever before she can start attacking again. I still managed to take out everyone except
Kaguya
, but of course she just destroyed my entire party after a few turns alone.

On a side note, I never thought I'd see a situation where Patchy is a better tank than Meiling.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 10, 2010, 12:08:18 AM
*tanking with 15F optional*
And people say I was being silly by claiming the game makers favored her...

Anyhow, spoilerific questions:
Is it worth it to drop Marisa for Yukari? I haven't beaten her yet, but I think I've got a strategy down. Only thing is Marisa has been dying a lot lately and her Spark can only do so much for requiring several turns to prep, then stay on the bench until near the end of the battle, while Yukari can have a pretty effective nuke since I'm using both Ran and Chen, which can be used more than one turn in a row without requiring quite a bit of time for prepping. Yukari can also support, but since I have Ran and Reimu for that I figure that could be a secondary job if I decide to use her (after all, if I'm dropping Marisa it has to be for more offense).

Only thing is, as I've said before, skillpoint levels are an issue... I'm STILL way behind on levelling and training Yukari will just put me behind further. I can deal with it, but I need to be sure she's absolutely worth it before I do.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 12:13:50 AM
And people say I was being silly by claiming the game makers favored her...

Anyhow, spoilerific questions:
Is it worth it to drop Marisa for Yukari? I haven't beaten her yet, but I think I've got a strategy down. Only thing is Marisa has been dying a lot lately and her Spark can only do so much for requiring several turns to prep, then stay on the bench until near the end of the battle, while Yukari can have a pretty effective nuke since I'm using both Ran and Chen, which can be used more than one turn in a row without requiring quite a bit of time for prepping. Yukari can also support, but since I have Ran and Reimu for that I figure that could be a secondary job if I decide to use her (after all, if I'm dropping Marisa it has to be for more offense).

Only thing is, as I've said before, SP is an issue... I'm STILL way behind on levelling and training Yukari will just put me behind further. I can deal with it, but I need to be sure she's absolutely worth it before I do.
Well, she's great for a tank (If you spend Lvl-Up bonuses in MND she has PATCH-LEVEL MND, plus her support moves. Maybe higher.), but those 2 characters in your party to make her nuke stronger, MAG isn't a bad choice at all.

I wouldn't drop Marisa because Spark is really useful, but, it wouldn't be a totally bad choice to do so... but, I'd recommend dropping someone other then Marisa.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 10, 2010, 12:46:37 AM
Dropping marisa is a bad idea. Master spark might not seem great at first, but it truly is the only thing in the game which provides you with a source of damage without taking a front 4 spot (not for long anyway). Plus the oodles of "I just casted focus and my next turn will own you" bosses later on.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 12:50:09 AM
Dropping marisa is a bad idea. Master spark might not seem great at first, but it truly is the only thing in the game which provides you with a source of damage without taking a front 4 spot (not for long anyway). Plus the oodles of "I just casted focus and my next turn will own you" bosses later on.
If you think about it, several characters can meet (or possibly exceed) Master Spark's damage if you actually get them to 100% ATK/MAG buffs first. It's just that Marisa's Concentrate makes it the most easily viable for her to do it. Especially considering when the boss is weak to an element that is not MYS, or resists MYS.

Well, and Master Spark is still probably more powerful then most things in that case, although the fact that after 1 shot... that's all, folks! Which means only superior because of Concentrate and for FINAL PHASE MUST NUKE INSTANTLY.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 10, 2010, 01:12:52 AM
I wouldn't drop Marisa because Spark is really useful, but, it wouldn't be a totally bad choice to do so... but, I'd recommend dropping someone other then Marisa.
Well, Yuugi has recently began falling behind due to everything using magic (that being the one thing she can't tank), so if you think I can live on just my current tanks
Tenshi, Eirin, and Meiling
and you think too much uses magic from this point onward I could bench her for the newcomer.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 02:44:57 AM
The fact that she can both tank AND cast a party DEF/MND buff is really useful. Her gauge-filler and SPD down+PAR skills are useful too, but her party buff is what really makes her shine. Great for a defensive party.

Your choice really, you shouldn't have a ton of trouble either way unless you're planning on doing Plus-Disk (In which case she'll prolly REALLY help out with some tough bosses, but I can't tell you for sure. Since I haven't played it yet and all. But it really should.)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 10, 2010, 03:09:23 AM
For
Yukari
I would definatly use her as she works similar to a
back-up Reimu due to both of them having a good party DEF/MND buff
. In fact I almost always had the former out over the latter, and for no good reason :V But I would also keep Marisa as her Asteroid Belt does great damage and her Spark hit records for me, over and over xD
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 10, 2010, 03:12:19 AM
For
Yukari
I would definatly use her as she works similar to a
back-up Reimu due to both of them having a good party DEF/MND buff
.
Maybe I should take the insane option and drop Reimu for her. =V Ignore my team is already pretty crazy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 03:20:13 AM
Maybe I should take the insane option and drop Reimu for her. =V Ignore my team is already pretty crazy.
She's a lot more useful then Reimu... if you forget that Reimu has the only multi-heal in the game. The only one that actually heals a significant amount, at least (2 others where the healing is simply a minor add-on). This makes Reimu drastically useful, although it is certainly possible to get by without her.

This girl is really good because unlike Reimu, she can actually stay out and take hits. Plus, when using the 2 characters who increase one of her attack's power, she can deal pretty nice damage (Albeit in a strange way, but still), or instead you can go for MND on levelups instead of MAG and suddenly have someone with even better MND then Patch does.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 10, 2010, 05:25:59 AM
FINALLY. Floor 18's layout is just a little bit cruel if you ask me...but no matter! I have reached the boss at last! TIME TO GET MY ASS KICKED. o/

EDIT: Eww...what level is recommended for him again?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 10, 2010, 05:37:59 AM
I personally recommend 90-110105. Don't know what the others would recommend though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 10, 2010, 06:03:57 AM
'k...because my team is now in their late 70s to late 80s. :S How much health does he have anyway? I know he has a bunch of different forms, but that's it. Also he's way too fast and seemingly immune to debuffs. :(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 10, 2010, 06:15:59 AM
If you think about it, several characters can meet (or possibly exceed) Master Spark's damage if you actually get them to 100% ATK/MAG buffs first. It's just that Marisa's Concentrate makes it the most easily viable for her to do it. Especially considering when the boss is weak to an element that is not MYS, or resists MYS.

Well, and Master Spark is still probably more powerful then most things in that case, although the fact that after 1 shot... that's all, folks! Which means only superior because of Concentrate and for FINAL PHASE MUST NUKE INSTANTLY.

You don't understand, Master spark gets more and more useful later on. Because instead of being that one nuke you use at the end of the game, pretty  much immediately after Yukari, you can use it whenever you please, and Marisa will regen her sp back to 1600+ before the battle is over, to be used again. and the 2nd time, you wont have to rebuff her mag from 0 to full again, it'll already be at 60-something. Marisa is simply underwhelming for Yukari in general, because yukari is a relatively squishy boss for how hard she is (and how late game she is), combined with the fact that she's almost sure to djinn storm RIGHT before phase 3 which is when you no doubt wanted to horde all that sp.

As for patchy-level mnd, that's just assuming you don't make patchy's mnd grow as well. spend some skillpoints for patchy too and it'll grow beyond anything anybody else can hope to reach with equal commitment. Patchy pretty much solo'd the floor 27 boss for me.

Yukari herself is not a character I used on my first playthru because my party was already more or less established. Her stats are nice, and her 2 support spells are indeed good. However it's worth mentioning that you should never really count on her other spells. I had like a million or 2 skillpoints saved up for Yukari when i got her, and I poured them all into just her as soon as I got her (I made a backupsave in the event she dissapointed me), and gave her good equipment. But the damage I got from her spells (and the rate that speed debuffing one actually debuffed) was extremely dissapointing...Though I guess her chen+ran one is probably great if you have those characters in your group.

Having a 2nd character to hakkurei barrier when Reimu gets destroy magic'd or something would be very nice.

Still though, I honestly would not dump Marisa for anybody, or Reimu, master spark and that aoe heal are one of a kind abilities that nobody else has something remotely similar to. Master spark really does seem kinda  underwhelming at first but it gets better more and more faster than everything else gets better due to its nature of being more frequently used in tough battles later on. And as I mentioned every master spark after the first doesn't require nearly as much concentration time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 10, 2010, 06:17:29 AM
'k...because my team is now in their late 70s to late 80s. :S How much health does he have anyway? I know he has a bunch of different forms, but that's it. Also he's way too fast and seemingly immune to debuffs. :(
2mil+ HP from what I gathered, but note that the forms themselves can take a bit of "overflow" damage before swapping. Immune to debuffs is also correct
.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 10, 2010, 07:10:42 AM
Ooh, it's a good thing you gain levels faster as the game goes on...I may very well have a tapering off of playing, as I have a deadline to finish something else, and knowing my work ethic I need to concentrate on it.

But I figure I should focus my skill points not in offense but in defense, considering the two big problems are that he severely outruns me and he flattens everyone with a few punches.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 11:11:02 AM
Ooh, it's a good thing you gain levels faster as the game goes on...I may very well have a tapering off of playing, as I have a deadline to finish something else, and knowing my work ethic I need to concentrate on it.

But I figure I should focus my skill points not in offense but in defense, considering the two big problems are that he severely outruns me and he flattens everyone with a few punches.
You should probably try to get to about Reimu lv90 now. That's around the point where 18F boss starts becoming realistically possible (aka without godsetup+luckgarbage)

Funnily, that means you can get through the game with only TWO grinding sessions, right before either 16F or 18F boss, and then the Final Boss. Damn.

Also, grinding on 17F will level you up so much faster then 18F. EXP/SKP is only slightly less and the battles end MUCH quicker.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 10, 2010, 11:30:01 AM
Re: Master Spark
Master Spark is on a completely different level that no other skill in the game can compare to, not even
Yuka's Master Spark, which is weaker than Marisa's by virtue of it being multi-target
. Once you have enough SP to make your α = 2, then the damage on that just racks up higher and higher and higher as you continue to crank up Marisa's MAG. I've had the Master Spark do literally tens of MILLIONS of damage on single castings without buffs because of that. With buffs, I've seen it reach almost 100 million damage. Not even Flandre's godlike Attack stats can reach that sort of immense power, I've only seen it crank to about 60~80% of that damage with buffs! The fact that it does nuke all of Marisa's SP afterwards is a balancing factor, naturally. You just cannot expect to see most things later on, even with severe levelling, compare to the damage of the Awesomespark. Not even
Yuka's own
.

Re: Yukarin
Did you guys all forget Yukari's Spiriting Away? It gives everyone a free turn! Also Shikigami Ran+ kinda sucks if you don't have Ran/Chen in the group. But why the fuck wouldn't you have Ran and Chen in your party in the first place? Both of them are extremely solid characters who I'd say outclass Yukari >_> All she has got over them is slightly more MAG and much more durability.

Re: nintendonut888's problem
The boss has 2.08 million HP, to be exact. Baity wasn't very far off though.
Also, beware the mighty Traumerei, it hurts
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 10, 2010, 12:29:45 PM
Quote
But why the fuck wouldn't you have
Ran
and Chen in your party in the first place?

In my case the answer is, because Chen is patheticly weak especially when I compare her to her replacement xD

Edit: donut, for that boss, if your doing it right he will switch out of 1 form into the next and never return to that form, but if your doing it wrong-ish it will return to an old form. To me, it seems like each form has it's own HP count and when that hits 0 the boss won't go to that form. Funny thing though, you can actually beat the 18F boss while it's still in an early form if you either A) Grind to overkill levels, or B) Use cheats in some way to get high stats so you can OHKO the boss.

Great thing about the 18F boss I have seen, if your at a good level to beat it, it's attacks will look pathetic mostly, with only a few still being notable :V

*complaining begin* I honestly don't see why we tag some chars but not others, what if TSO or Letty(I pick TSO and Letty name wise cause lots of people on MotK know who they are) or someone else decided they wanted to play Labyrinth, came to this thread and got spoiled about various characters. I bring this up cause or original decision was basicly "spoiler-tag any char past the 2nd page of characters" and yet here we are naming off even later chars without a tag. I don't want to sound like a nag, I just ask that we spoiler-tag some characters please :) *end complaining*
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 10, 2010, 12:45:21 PM
In my case the answer is, because Chen is patheticly weak especially when I compare her to her replacement xD I also fixed the line I am quoting.

I can get more Flights of Idaten in a single turn than I can get Catwalks.

I think this speaks for itself
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 10, 2010, 12:49:01 PM
Quote
I can get more Flights of Idaten in a single turn than I can get Catwalks

I don't use that character :V I use
Rinnosuke
as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 01:11:07 PM
I don't use that character :V I use
Rinnosuke
as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V
Chen quite literally takes less then HALF the exp to level, then that character. Chen should be SOOO much faster then him I don't even-

Anyway, missed my school bus so I leveled 4 times to Reimu lv134 and got the final boss down without a hitch. Was pretty fun! Of course, I was pretty lucky... the self-buff was used only twice, Djinn Storm only once, and the big nuke was NEVER used. And that boss was alive for quite awhile.

I have to say, Chen/Meiling/Remi/16F were the most important characters for this fight. Chen was the best damage dealer, Meiling only died at the very end (and only because SHE NEVER GOT TO MOVE LIKE EVER AUGH, she got about one turn after the Djinn Storm. ONE.), while Remi was a great tank and passive damage dealer, and Chen was my biggest source of damage hands down.
Then, Yukari was great because almost nothing could hurt her at all, and she could just sit there buffing. Suika was pretty great too with her self-buff and Throwing Atlas. She can take quite a few hits with that MND of hers!


Now to prepare to go slaughter some v.2 bosses!

EDIT:Accidently ran into Boss Rush pretty much instantly (aka still at lv134) and actually made it through to the Final Boss. Only reached Final Boss's second phase with 4 people left though, because I totally wasn't prepared and I was the same level as when I beat the game... ;-;

IT TOOK 40 MINUTES TO DO THAT AUGH WHY DIDN'T I CLOSE THE GAME WHEN I RAN INTO BOSS RUSH
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 10, 2010, 03:11:59 PM
Really...? You're saying the boss is possible with Reimu at level 90? o_O She's at 89 right now, and I don't see how this is remotely possible. Does he get easier once you get out of his first form or something?

Also, grinding on floor 17 MAY be easier, but that floor also has a lot of slowdown. =_= Then again, ALL the floors have a lot of slowdown once the map gets close to completion, floors 11 and 13 being the worst.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 03:16:54 PM
Really...? You're saying the boss is possible with Reimu at level 90? o_O She's at 89 right now, and I don't see how this is remotely possible. Does he get easier once you get out of his first form or something?

Also, grinding on floor 17 MAY be easier, but that floor also has a lot of slowdown. =_= Then again, ALL the floors have a lot of slowdown once the map gets close to completion, floors 11 and 13 being the worst.
Its really not recommended, but possible. At lv100 he shouldn't be hard, and somewhere inbetween is a good level for a challenge. His attacks really lose their punch with 3 defensively good characters buffed up (Meiling/Remi/16F sat in the first 3 spots and laughed at him the whole time, Reimu lv98 for me. Afterwards I kinda wished I'd done him a few levels lower.)

Also... 17F has slowdown for you? Strange, it doesn't even have that much space taken in it. 18F has a lot more (and if you haven't explored it all, its full of some REALLY nice equipment).

If you get slowdown on 17F, you'll commit suicide on 19F.  :V


Mmkay, fully explored the new post-game areas unlocked on 20F, and I have over a million SKP. Tee hee.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 10, 2010, 03:49:33 PM
YES

12F trio is down! After another hour of grinding, Royal Flare spam seemed to work just fine, causing the main two bosses to go down just after one another, after which it was a simple case to go all out against the third, minor, one. I did get a bit frightened when the game seemed to freeze after the battle, but just waiting for a bit got it going again.

Also: omg plot.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 10, 2010, 08:04:03 PM
Chen quite literally takes less then HALF the exp to level, then that character. Chen should be SOOO much faster then him I don't even-
Well his modifier is double, that hardly means his actual level is half though.
OOH OOH! Time to play with my "wut level is this character" program!
exp given:   Chen's lvl, 
Rin's level
100,000:    31     25
1,000,000:     69    55
50,000,000:    120    95
250,000,000,000:    206    163
1,500,000,000,000:    375    298
10,000,000,000,000:   708    562
100,000,000,000,000:    1527    1212
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 08:14:39 PM
That isn't what I meant >:

Chen should take less then half the EXP to level up then that character, when at an equal level. However, this doesn't mean she'll be twice the level, because the experience needed to level up increases per level which helps keep her from rocketing past everyone else.

Although, this makes me wonder how the stats of characters with a Level-Up of around 80 (EX:Cirno, Rumia) ACTUALLY compare to stats of characters with more like 120+. I mean, characters with a high level-up mod have a little less stats then advertised while the characters with lower ones have a little higher then advertised. It makes things more confusing >:



ANYWAY, Reimu lv151, beaten half or more of the Ver.2 bosses and the 2 Bloodstained ones you can fight before post-game. Basically, all the bosses that don't completely rape me before I can move. Which should I be able to finish first, all the Ver.2 bosses or Boss Rush? I want to go pick up that character on 21F. And, it takes like a half hour to get to the end of Boss Rush, which is the part that actually matters, so... blah.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 10, 2010, 08:18:24 PM

Although, this makes me wonder how the stats of characters with a Level-Up of around 80 (EX:Cirno, Rumia) ACTUALLY compare to stats of characters with more like 120+. I mean, characters with a high level-up mod have a little less stats then advertised while the characters with lower ones have a little higher then advertised. It makes things more confusing >:

This is exactly what I intend to figure out with my theorycrafting, that and more, such as factoring the formulas of their attacks too.

My last 2 road blocks are the skillpoint costs to gain each level. It wouldn't be fair to assume everyone was the same skill level when some cost more to level those up than others, and....I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the speed problem, yay!
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on February 10, 2010, 08:36:24 PM
I don't suppose anyone would know how to modify music for the game? [/cardinal sin]

While most of it is awesome the "standard" boss theme against the optionals and sigil guardians starts to get dull by the time you've heard it for the umpteenth time (story bosses get it much better), so I was thinking of replacing it with Coldheartedness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImbH918OQs) from Devil Survivor to make things more interesting.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 10, 2010, 08:53:22 PM
Those bronze golems on 14F are starting to get really annoying. Seriously, one-shotting Tenshi of all people? At least my current setup can take them out before they can attack most of the time...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 09:02:35 PM
Those bronze golems on 14F are starting to get really annoying. Seriously, one-shotting Tenshi of all people? At least my current setup can take them out before they can attack most of the time...
Tenshi's low HP makes her highly vulnerable to anything that can get past her defenses. Her self-buff takes care of this (mostly), but you don't really use that in random battles.

In fact, Tenshi is almost completely useless in random battles. You'd be better off using someone who can attack yet is still durable, so you can kill the enemies quicker; this makes exploring safer then bringing in a tank into the random battles.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 10, 2010, 09:10:45 PM
In fact, Tenshi is almost completely useless in random battles.
After that battle, I kind of noticed that and thus don't use her anymore. Right now, I use Marisa, Patchy, and Aya for taking out most of the enemies before they can move, along with
Komachi
in the first slot in the hope that if something survives, it will attack her.

Though now that I think about it, exchanging her for someone else who can actually do some damage to the enemies would probably be a better idea. Cirno, perhaps? A lot of the 14F enemies seem really susceptible to paralysis...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 10, 2010, 10:01:08 PM
After that battle, I kind of noticed that and thus don't use her anymore. Right now, I use Marisa, Patchy, and Aya for taking out most of the enemies before they can move, along with
Komachi
in the first slot in the hope that if something survives, it will attack her.

Though now that I think about it, exchanging her for someone else who can actually do some damage to the enemies would probably be a better idea. Cirno, perhaps? A lot of the 14F enemies seem really susceptible to paralysis...

I wouldn't reccommend dumping people just for trash usefulness. Trash for each floor at your point of the game is always overwhelmingly powerful. However they *REALLY* get trivial in just a few lvels. Not only will a few levels enable you to kill them all before any move most of the time, but you'd also be suprised at how much faster def/mnd per level up makes their attacks go from 1shot material, to 2 shot material, to weak, to 0.

Of course it'll be a really long time before those golems hit you for 0, or even become weak hitting, but they are *SO* slow that, it will NOT be long before you can kill em before they move (even with someone with little dps holding you back)...

I find her 2nd spell (the big multi target nature nuke) to be quite powerful though actually. Just don't use it if you don't have to or else your sp will reach 0 fast.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 10, 2010, 10:08:12 PM
Progress!
Made it out of the single digit floors! Have access to F12 now, although there's some sort of locked door.
Also beat
Suwako
in quite an intense fight. Everybody dead except Alice who used her last bit of sp for one more Return Inanimate, which was enough.
Is it just me again, or was that a very hard boss? ;>_>
I have a feeling
Suwako
is going to be very usefull in the fight against
Nitori
.
Which stat should I be focusing on? ATK, MAG or just both at the same time?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 10, 2010, 10:12:09 PM
Komachi
can deal pretty good damage with her 4th move and if something is difficult to beat down, try her 3rd or 4th as they are pretty good. I would reccomend giving
Komachi's
level bonus into ATK rather then HP. In fact my
Komachi
had like 100k ATK or so when Remi has like 125k ATK or sumthin like that, so she can definatly compare with Remi.

For
Suwako
I would focus on her ATK as it is more useful if you want to use this character on bosses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 10, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
Which stat should I be focusing on? ATK, MAG or just both at the same time?
Up to you.  MAG makes her an anti-enemy nuker; ATK makes her a boss killer (Especially for NTR-weak bosses as her NTR single-target is, to my knowledge, one of the strongest NTR moves in the game)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 10:18:35 PM
Yeah, for
Suwako
go for ATK. Her magical multi-hits are nice against floor trash but her ATK single-targets... one inflicts good damage and PAR three times stronger then anyone elses (Bar Plus-Disk character
Renko's PAR-120+SPD/ATK Down multi-hit
) and the other is a wonderful nuke.

And you don't need a specialize a character to help with floor trash when instead you could make them totally awesome for bosses. You don't sit there grinding because you can't beat up the enemies encountered on the next floor.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 10, 2010, 11:44:35 PM
Palm Sigil Guardian
Cosmic
taken down without losing anybody. Reimu Lv102.
Took some really good planning. Oh, and no
Tenshi
"abuse" by means of debuffing the
+100% MAG
buff. The idea of using her did cross my mind though; I must now bleach my brain and REPENT.

20F time.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 10, 2010, 11:53:10 PM
20F time.
*explore for 4 minutes* *grindgrindgrindgrind*

20F encounters give massive EXP/SKP, so it won't be as bad as you may think to reach a level where you can take on the Final Boss (Likely 130~135). Especially considering how you seem to be doing them at as low a level as possible. (Which is great!)

Okay, the only ver.2 bosses I have left now are
Flandre, Mokou, Yukari, and MANnosuke.
Reimu lv154. Interesting considering I beat the first one on that list on my first playthrough at about 10 levels lower, on the first try.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 11, 2010, 01:14:30 AM
And you don't need a specialize a character to help with floor trash when instead you could make them totally awesome for bosses.
^

I'm regretting putting any MAG level up points into
Suwako and Ran
.  Useful against randoms, sure, but level up points are finite and can't be changed, so you're hurting their effectiveness against bosses a lot in a way that you can't take back.  Thankfully by the time
Yukari
joined I'd learned my lesson.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 01:16:33 AM
^

I'm regretting putting any MAG level up points into
Suwako and Ran
.  Useful against randoms, sure, but level up points are finite and can't be changed, so you're hurting their effectiveness against bosses a lot in a way that you can't take back.  Thankfully by the time
Yukari
joined I'd learned my lesson.
Actually, Ran can do pretty respectable damage against bosses. She's meant for her buff on bosses, yeah, but I usually end up using her to attack anyway. I think I'll replace her with a certain Plus-Disk buffer once I get them.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 11, 2010, 01:23:10 AM
Ran and
Yukari
are fine getting MAG in them from levels as that lets them keep up for when you want to use them for trash killing, but if you go into SP with every level then they lose effectiveness for trash killing for what? 3 more uses of a buff or something? Power and lets say 20 uses of either of Rans buffs, or no real power for maybe... 26 uses of the same spells, I would pick Power every time in this situation.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 01:43:43 AM
Ran and
Yukari
are fine getting MAG in them from levels as that lets them keep up for when you want to use them for trash killing, but if you go into SP with every level then they lose effectiveness for trash killing for what? 3 more uses of a buff or something? Power and lets say 20 uses of either of Rans buffs, or no real power for maybe... 26 uses of the same spells, I would pick Power every time in this situation.
Why would you pick SP? If you don't pick the offensive stat, pick a defensive stat. And that makes a BIG difference to a character's defense/mind, trust me. Its just that only a character with lots of support moves can take such a decision, because they'll be nearly incapable of dealing damage anymore.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 11, 2010, 02:02:50 AM
I've been doing some power grinding on floor 17 (you're right; it is much faster, and unlike floor 18 you can actually get skill points), but
RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?
doesn't look to be getting any easier. The thing is is that even at 20 levels from now (max level is now 91), I don't see myself winning if he keeps using stuff like Rasetsu Fist and Start of Heavenly Demise for 2 million HP. V_V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 11, 2010, 02:17:04 AM
RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?
Yes, I am very happy. For good reason too  ^^;;;

Rasetsu Fist is
"piercing"; the only way to defend youreself against it is to raise your HP since debuffing ATK is out of the question
. Start of Heavenly Demise is
"composite", meaning that it uses both ATK and MAG to attack your DEF and MND
  >:3

Rasetsu Fist also
stops being used once he form changes; unconfirmed for Final Phase since I went all out then and there
.

Reached the "last" relay point with Reimu Lv108. Let's see what I can and can't do...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 02:17:36 AM
I've been doing some power grinding on floor 17 (you're right; it is much faster, and unlike floor 18 you can actually get skill points), but
RINNOSUKE THERE YOU HAPPY I USED THE FREAKING TAG?
doesn't look to be getting any easier. The thing is is that even at 20 levels from now (max level is now 91), I don't see myself winning if he keeps using stuff like Rasetsu Fist and Start of Heavenly Demise for 2 million HP. V_V
Tanks+Party DEF/MND buff=those things will do nearly or at 0 damage if you reach a party level of about Reimu lv100. Rasetsu Fist ignores defense but it shouldn't be threatening to anyone with good HP (as anyone in the first 2 slots should have, and I even recommend 3 tanks for this boss).

Who's in your party, by the way? And how do you go about trying to fight the boss? Although I suppose he hurts you too badly to try right now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 02:23:02 AM
Composite attacks are guud, Patchy's mnd alone is higher than most tank's def+mnd combined...Or maybe not, it is for me but I just remember she's carrying a necronomicon, which is a mnd item on steroids.

I found that the first phase of the floor 18 boss was the hardest, after he form changes he's pretty easy because he replaces his threatening attacks with crap like "element this wind", and whatnot.

His final phase is also probably tough except at that point all my guys are relatively buffed and you should have a 80% mag master spark waiting for him at that point (use one at the start too, the fight should last so long that marisa can do it again, you can probably squeeze in 3 actually).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 11, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
My current party:

Reimu
Marisa
Cirno
Yukari
Yuyuko
Patchouli
Kaguya
Ran
Alice
Yugi
Komachi
Suwako

I realize Yuyuko's a poor choice for this fight, and when I get serious I'll probably switch her for Tenshi. My strategy is to buff everyone's defense and go as all out as I can, but I don't think I've ever dealt more than 200k damage before dying.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 02:33:08 AM
I see a problem right off; Yukari is the only tank in that party... and she isn't hugely tanky if you went for MAG, and she can't take physical hits good enough to tank them. 18F boss is MUCH harder without tanks because the other characters won't be sitting there taking 0 damage and laughing at the boss. Patch and Yuyuko can tank magic as well with some MND buffs from Yukari, but you have a glaring lack of a first-slot tanking character. Yuugi can take physical hits great, but FAR too weak to magic for tanking. This is a big flaw.

Yeah, Komachi is an HP tank, but this means she can't actually stay out that long because everything will hurt her a lot; she just won't get 0hkoed by anything that isn't incredibly strong.

If you bring in Tenshi, that will help a lot, because Tenshi can take 0 damage from just about everything this boss has with at least 20% of her self-buff left. Or, you could bring in Meiling, who also works wonderful. Remi would work. Those are the first to come to mind.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 11, 2010, 02:59:26 AM
I replaced Yuyu with Tenshi and even though she died immediately due to a Rasetsu fistin', I somehow made it to his first form change. He...got an even stronger attack that killed everyone in one hit. -_-
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 03:05:01 AM
I replaced Yuyu with Tenshi and even though she died immediately due to a Rasetsu fistin', I somehow made it to his first form change. He...got an even stronger attack that killed everyone in one hit. -_-
...yeah, thats the problem with Tenshi. Low HP. It takes a bit of luck to get through the first phase, but then Tenshi is safe. Just make sure she has a ribbon or shuttle body or somesuch so her Self-buff doesn't do bad stuff.

On my first playthrough I totally cheesed that boss with Tenshi by having her tank everything while being the only one out and switching nukers and healers in and out. It took over an hour and was both boring and unsatisfying.

Tenshi can sit there and take hits, but she's absolutely useless for almost anything else. Remi deals nice damage while she takes hits, Meiling has a self-heal and Healer is minor HP heal+status cure, Yukari has 3 support moves... Tenshi is just goddefense and thats all, folks. Sword of Rapture=not that useful, even on bosses with massive buffs.

She DOES do goddefense really damn well though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 11, 2010, 03:28:34 AM
Tenshi... not getting hit with PAR from her Self-Buff, wat? the PAR is actually good since she will have the DEF/MND + 100% for longer, plus Tenshi is practicually useless unless shes taking 0, and even then she doesn't seem that good :V

Also, off-topic, but I see new smiley looks now which is very 8)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 11, 2010, 04:13:00 AM
Tenshi can sit there and take hits, but she's absolutely useless for almost anything else. [...] Tenshi is just goddefense and thats all, folks. Sword of Rapture=not that useful, even on bosses with massive buffs.

Tenshi... not getting hit with PAR from her Self-Buff, wat? the PAR is actually good since she will have the DEF/MND + 100% for longer, plus Tenshi is practicually useless unless shes taking 0, and even then she doesn't seem that good :V

Also, off-topic, but I see new smiley looks now which is very 8)

Tenshi was actually really useful for me throughout the game for 1 obvious reason, and 2 less obvious ones.

1. Godlike defense obviously, zeroing out a lot of attacks.
2. Very low maintenance. Doesn't really need to use up her turns besides the occasional State of Enlightenment if Reimu/Minoriko/
Yukari
can't keep up with buffs, and usually only needs minor healing if any.
3. Slow. Yes, I consider this a benefit for her role.

It's true that Tenshi can't do much to bosses besides buffing herself. For this reason, in boss fights, she's performs as my "switcher character". She sits in slot 1 with minor to major defense buffs, and her turns are basically spent either using State of Enlightenment if her buffs are really low, or switching characters in to do their thing (be it healing or damaging or buffing or whatever), then switching them out immediately after for someone more durable, before the boss's attack comes in. Since most of the best damagers are really fragile, and later bosses really like using strong AOEs, her combination of low maintenance and lack of speed actually makes her really suitable to switch in characters constantly to act then switching them out right after.

Meiling's also pretty good at this, but she doesn't take hits nearly as well as Tenshi, and letting her defensive buffs fall to low amounts hurts her a lot more than it hurts Tenshi, making her have to use her turns to heal herself or switching in buffers/healers more often than Tenshi has to. Remilia also has maintenance issues, but her bigger issue is actually that she's too fast to make this work in general. Of all the DDers I used, the only ones Remilia could switch in and have them go first was Chen (pointless since she can switch herself out easily),
Flandre
and Suwako (both with some speed manipulation). For characters like Yuugi, even Meiling outsped them, forcing me to use Tenshi to switch her in always. That's why in the end, I built Remi up to play a more "DD who can stay in the frontlines for prolonged periods" role, similar to Alice and
Shikieiki
, and Tenshi became my main tank, with Meiling as backup if the boss had Rasetsu Fist or a similarly Tenshi-killing move.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Just a GBZero on February 11, 2010, 05:31:04 AM
Why did no one say
Rinnoske
can change forms before the form itself dies and switch back at will.  Plus he is the only boss I actually am having decent trouble with.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 11, 2010, 06:05:14 AM
Pretty much expected, but I'll say it anyway.

I can't clear 20F at late 10Xs. Perhaps 11Xs.

/me starts grinding levels

By the way...
are those uhh... "limbs" able to be killed? Or a better question, does dealing damage to them add to the overall "damage" the Boss takes
?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 06:21:43 AM

By the way...
are those uhh... "limbs" able to be killed? Or a better question, does dealing damage to them add to the overall "damage" the Boss takes
?

Hitting them damages the boss, not what you target, use multi target attacks to damage the boss really bad. When the 3rd one comes out, their healthpools finally seperate, and no longer damage the boss.

Knowing that makes the boss so much easier, wish i knew before I beat it >=P.

I finally got my first 30F item, got it from
yukari mk3
. It's a great physical dps item with status resists. Could be better if some budget wasn't wasted on 30 tp though >=(.. stupid god items with tp. argh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 11, 2010, 06:35:14 AM
Hmm... so!

It would be thus logical to conclude that once the third one comes out then "they" are possible to kill off?

If the above statement is true, then it would probably make the battle a bit easier (or maybe a lot).

Guess I'll take another shot at 114  :V
...or maybe 116 seeing as I need to actually bulk up a bit more via Skill Points.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 11, 2010, 06:46:48 AM
This is exactly what I intend to figure out with my theorycrafting, that and more, such as factoring the formulas of their attacks too.

My last 2 road blocks are the skillpoint costs to gain each level. It wouldn't be fair to assume everyone was the same skill level when some cost more to level those up than others, and....I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the speed problem, yay!

I mentioned earlier on that there were stat level ratings in the info for each character. The 15 hex addresses right after their stat levels were the ratings for the respective stats. Fiddle with those and their cost to increase a stat is adjusted accordingly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 08:00:09 AM
Hmm... so!

It would be thus logical to conclude that once the third one comes out then "they" are possible to kill off?

If the above statement is true, then it would probably make the battle a bit easier (or maybe a lot).

Guess I'll take another shot at 114  :V
...or maybe 116 seeing as I need to actually bulk up a bit more via Skill Points.

Yeah they are killable once the 3rd is out, they go down pretty quick at that point too. Be careful which order you kill them in though, because the others gain new powers as you kill them. Killing the one on the right last is a big nono unless you don't mind eating a scourge or 2 (over 100k damage to one target which ignores defense and mnd). I personally like killing the left one last because it doesn't seem to do much aside from "moar damage', and is already pretty tame IMO.. Not to mention it seems to be the squishiest, it's hella weak versus fire btw, so you can probably 3 or 4 shot it with some powerful fire spells like royal flare (it will most likely die first if you royal flare while all 3 are up a couple times).

After all 3 are out it's a bit of a luck fight since the boss can cast an unfair combination of everything +100% (it's actually 50% but she can cast it multiple times in a row if she likes), djinn storm, and powerful nukes. (Hyperdimensional flying object was the nastiest by far for me, though some people think the quadruple destructive whatever its called is worse).
+50%,djinnstorm, +50%, hyperactive is basically a you lose button, unless you got some kind of party specifically designed to tank that one nuke or something.

Knowing that she takes damage when she's summoning stuff really lets you nuke her down really far in advance though, so that elimates alot of the luck factor once you know that.

Quote
I mentioned earlier on that there were stat level ratings in the info for each character. The 15 hex addresses right after their stat levels were the ratings for the respective stats. Fiddle with those and their cost to increase a stat is adjusted accordingly.

I think I misunderstood what you meant exactly. I don't see how I can really use that to my advantage...Please tell me they are integers and not floats. If integers it'll be nice to know that the formulas used for those skillpoint costs have a limited number of deviations. What's the lowest and highest number you recall seeing?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 11, 2010, 08:16:20 AM
They're integers.

For Reimu, her TP level rating was 5500 and her Mnd rating was 90. You can approximate it to 1 SKP per 100 rating (at level 1) and scale it accordingly.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 09:29:20 AM
They're integers.

For Reimu, her TP level rating was 5500 and her Mnd rating was 90. You can approximate it to 1 SKP per 100 rating (at level 1) and scale it accordingly.

Damn, that's a large range. Still though it suggests that they all share the same formula, which is nice.

I got my 2nd 30F item, high king finglesomethingorother's cestus... +168% attack.. period, nothing else.. WUT TF.. I've gotten items with over 300 attack from floor 27 ffs >='(.

speaking of which, what level do you have to be approximately to survive the enemy who drops the said item's "big" attack? it was nailing me for over a million ='(..and most of my dudes have less than 100k hp lol.

Seems like Reimu 400 is a level where you can safely take on just about all the 30F trash. Not all though. One in particular can heal for 10 million....Oh and I do 0 with everything except master spark which fully buffed hits for 400k only, and kaggy, who hits for 300k with her defense ignore attack.. so yeaaaahhh.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: trancehime on February 11, 2010, 12:06:20 PM
I don't use that character :V I use
Rinnosuke
as Chen replacement. Every stat on the replacement is higher then it is on Chen, cept for Speed, which is only slightly lower... I think... :V

Except his offense sucks despite the stats, very average multipliers, he is better off as a tank.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on February 11, 2010, 12:46:32 PM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7ILDFRGL

Here's the cheat file i mentioned and (finally) decided to upload. Includes the engine installer and a notepad file to explain a number of the cheats and stuff.
8)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 11, 2010, 01:29:05 PM
Someone on pooshlmer posted an excel spreadsheet detailing pretty much all the information on every enemy in the game, including affinities, resistances and drops/drop rates. I've taken the liberty of translating it into english.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ytjuzizgiyz

Supposedly only for V2.05~2.06, but I doubt enemy data changed that much in the version update.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 11, 2010, 03:06:51 PM
Results from grinding last night: Top level (everyone says Reimu level, but Cirno and Chen at are a higher level than Reimu :S) raised from level 87 to 93. I can indeed survive
floor 18 boss olololol
for longer, but I can rarely reach his form shifts, because the RNG is screwing me over and Rasetsu Fisting everyone a lot more than it did before. X(
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 03:20:48 PM
Results from grinding last night: Top level (everyone says Reimu level, but Cirno and Chen at are a higher level than Reimu :S) raised from level 87 to 93. I can indeed survive
floor 18 boss olololol
for longer, but I can rarely reach his form shifts, because the RNG is screwing me over and Rasetsu Fisting everyone a lot more than it did before. X(
Nonono-we don't go by Reimu for being the highest level. We do it because basically everyone uses Reimu in their party (GROUP HEAL AND DEF/MND BUFF INSANELY IMPORTANT), and you have her from the very start. I'm pretty sure the recommended levels on the Japanese wiki are based off of Reimu as well.

Yeah, don't expect to be able to beat the boss until at least Reimu lv90. Basing off Chen/Cirno won't get you anywhere because, like, Chen will likely be 10+ levels higher then Reimu when you're ready for the final boss.

And on a different note, I haven't used Cirno much in the later floors, is she useful for you? Since resistance to debuffs/PAR on average increases as you progress in the game, is she still useful, like, for damaging or something? I'm considering using her for a sub-par party playthrough. Because I have nothing else to do after I beat the Plus-Disk Final on this  :V

And no, the trash/bosses after 18F are not completely immune to Cirno's stuff, so you don't need to throw her out if you like her. Even the Final Boss is affected... sometimes
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 03:51:40 PM
Someone on pooshlmer posted an excel spreadsheet detailing pretty much all the information on every enemy in the game, including affinities, resistances and drops/drop rates. I've taken the liberty of translating it into english.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ytjuzizgiyz

Supposedly only for V2.05~2.06, but I doubt enemy data changed that much in the version update.

I'm not at my computer so I can't see but thanks for this, if that has enemy def/mnd values... You might want to file a restraining order against me because my affection might get innapropriate =p.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 11, 2010, 04:26:23 PM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7ILDFRGL

Here's the cheat file i mentioned and (finally) decided to upload. Includes the engine installer and a notepad file to explain a number of the cheats and stuff.
8)

Yays for the mention :3
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 11, 2010, 04:54:00 PM
Does anyone know approximately how much health
Mokou
has left once she uses
Resurrection
? I assume that the way to beat her is to Master Spark/Silent Selene/[insert other powerful attack here] her to death before she destroys everyone on the next turn, but when I just fought her I got surprised and only had time to bring out a 240-SP Marisa, whose 30,000-damage Master Spark just wasn't enough to bring her down. I did fine until that point though, with my only casualty being
Ran
, but that doesn't help when your entire party is wiped out in one single attack...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 04:59:42 PM
Does anyone know approximately how much health
Mokou
has left once she uses
Resurrection
? I assume that the way to beat her is to Master Spark/Silent Selene/[insert other powerful attack here] her to death before she destroys everyone on the next turn, but when I just fought her I got surprised and only had time to bring out a 240-SP Marisa, whose 30,000-damage Master Spark just wasn't enough to bring her down. I did fine until that point though, with my only casualty being
Ran
, but that doesn't help when your entire party is wiped out in one single attack...
About 80k HP. You have to have a fully MAG buffed Marisa with full SP to bring out in order to KO her, and you'll need to have enough MAG/SP to deal over 80k hp with that as well.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 11, 2010, 05:03:25 PM
I'm not at my computer so I can't see but thanks for this, if that has enemy def/mnd values... You might want to file a restraining order against me because my affection might get innapropriate =p.

Yep it does, as well as any unnatural HP/stat changes bosses go through while fighting them. For example...

Does anyone know approximately how much health
Mokou
has left once she uses
Resurrection
? I assume that the way to beat her is to Master Spark/Silent Selene/[insert other powerful attack here] her to death before she destroys everyone on the next turn, but when I just fought her I got surprised and only had time to bring out a 240-SP Marisa, whose 30,000-damage Master Spark just wasn't enough to bring her down. I did fine until that point though, with my only casualty being
Ran
, but that doesn't help when your entire party is wiped out in one single attack...

80k, +12k for each turn she gets after. Master Spark should probably be doing more than 30k (is it 80% MAG up as well?).

It's also entirely possible to get your tanks to survive her killer attack if you load up on FIR affinity equips for them, which can buy you a bit more time to switch in other attackers.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 11, 2010, 05:11:09 PM
Master Spark should probably be doing more than 30k (is it 80% MAG up as well?).
No, it was more like 10% left over from some earlier not-very-buffed attack run. (I usually don't have the patience to keep switching her in and out to build up her MAG very far...) This was the first time I had gotten that far in the battle, so
Resurrection
kind of took my by surprise. I have fought enough bosses earlier to know that when they do obvious focusing moves like that, it is time to get rid of them or die, so I basically just brought out what I had and found out that it wasn't enough.

In other news, I somehow managed to defeat one of the 14F sigil guardians on my first attempt, even though I forgot to change to my boss-fighting team beforehand.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 08:47:28 PM
Yep it does, as well as any unnatural HP/stat changes bosses go through while fighting them. For example...


I see, wow this thing is sweeeeet. Only thing missing is their damage formulas for spells. Do you know if a boss or enemy casts a spell with the same name as a the player's version, if it shares the formula? I'm thinking no, because Nitori mk 3's cannon doesn't really hit like a mac truck, Yet Yuugi's attacks do, and Nitori's evil twin sister mk3 has more attack than Yuugi's apparently. But in general, do they? Or you not sure (probably not sure).
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 11, 2010, 08:51:35 PM
Nonono-we don't go by Reimu for being the highest level. We do it because basically everyone uses Reimu in their party (GROUP HEAL AND DEF/MND BUFF INSANELY IMPORTANT), and you have her from the very start. I'm pretty sure the recommended levels on the Japanese wiki are based off of Reimu as well.

Yeah, don't expect to be able to beat the boss until at least Reimu lv90. Basing off Chen/Cirno won't get you anywhere because, like, Chen will likely be 10+ levels higher then Reimu when you're ready for the final boss.

And on a different note, I haven't used Cirno much in the later floors, is she useful for you? Since resistance to debuffs/PAR on average increases as you progress in the game, is she still useful, like, for damaging or something? I'm considering using her for a sub-par party playthrough. Because I have nothing else to do after I beat the Plus-Disk Final on this  :V

And no, the trash/bosses after 18F are not completely immune to Cirno's stuff, so you don't need to throw her out if you like her. Even the Final Boss is affected... sometimes

Ah, okay. Reimu is currently at level 91 in that case.

As for Cirno? She can't really be counted on to deal good damage (though she's never been on my team for her offensive capabilities), but she is an excellent support unit. If it weren't for Diamond Blizzard paralyzing enemies at a good rate, I would be a lot worse off. Then lay on some Perfect Freezes and you've got some crippled enemies. I don't know about the last two floors, but as of floor 18 paralyzation is still fairly effective.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 11, 2010, 08:52:05 PM
I see, wow this thing is sweeeeet. Only thing missing is their damage formulas for spells. Do you know if a boss or enemy casts a spell with the same name as a the player's version, if it shares the formula? I'm thinking no, because Nitori mk 3's cannon doesn't really hit like a mac truck, Yet Yuugi's attacks do, and Nitori's evil twin sister mk3 has more attack than Yuugi's apparently. But in general, do they? Or you not sure (probably not sure).
Pretty darn sure they don't. Like, some of Mokou's attacks are at least part physical, boss Kaguya's attacks really don't seem to ignore mind (Patch takes 100 damage and other people take over 1000? That isn't just affinity.), Yuyuko's attacks have better DTH when a player character I think.

They couldn't match up.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 11, 2010, 08:54:44 PM
Pretty darn sure they don't. Like, some of Mokou's attacks are at least part physical, boss Kaguya's attacks really don't seem to ignore mind (Patch takes 100 damage and other people take over 1000? That isn't just affinity.), Yuyuko's attacks have better DTH when a player character I think.

They couldn't match up.

Yeah true, forgot about kaggy.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 11, 2010, 09:21:28 PM
How many battles did I need for Yuugi? cause I have access to 7F yet the last time I checked, she wasn't their to recruit.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 11, 2010, 09:54:19 PM
The second one of the 14F sigil guardians has been defeated, after a rather uneventful battle. I think I am finally getting the hang of the whole "switch damage dealers out to nuke, then exchange them for people who can survive the boss's attacks" thing... And now to see if I can actually find which one of the 15F spell circles I activated.

Also, no more Cirno for the file selection screen D:


And I just realized that I have approximately 330k skill points from recent grinding... Time to get Marisa's Master Spark up to those 80k damage it needs to nuke
Mokou's
desperation phase.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 01:17:17 AM
I have made it to the 10F-12F portion of my 2nd playthrough 8)

Pesco,
could you give me the address for increasing a characters Battle Points? Specifically, Rumia, Yomou, Chen, whoever else needs BP to trigger the Orin events, as well as Utsuho and whoever need BP for Flan-chan. I hope this isn't to much to ask.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 12, 2010, 02:27:21 AM
Current grinding efforts: Reimu level 94. Slowly but surely everyone is getting stronger. :S Of course, they'll have to get a ways stronger before
UNZAN
stops being a big dick (pun intended). I moved up to floor 18 since even the easy enemies and higher encounter rate don't justify half experience.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 03:04:08 AM
Reimu lv175. I've beaten all the ver.2 bosses (who were at this point a bit easy) and with my new star, explored enough of 21F running away constantly to recruit
Kanako
. Defensively almost identical to Remi with better attack power, but less HP and no self-buff.

Now back to 20F grinding for those god damn items, of which I've only gotten one. GOD. DAMN. ITEMS. I'll probably try out the Bloodstained Seal bosses again first, as well as go murder Boss Rush.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 03:37:13 AM
Neo, I was grinding on 20F until about 220-ish before I moved on, and I had at least 2 of most drops by then, so don't worry about the the drops. In fact the drop rate on 20F seems to be like this "If you really want the drop, you will never get it, you don't want the drop you will get it" SoYeah. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 12, 2010, 03:51:00 AM
Reimu level 96. Last attempt on
>:|
had me destroy two of his forms. Sadly, it was doomed from the start because his pre-form shift form killed all my heavy hitters. That beginning of the fight is so dreadful.

Also, I like how in this game, there's no gradual being able to defeat the enemies faster and faster; you simply cross this threshold at some point that makes the enemies drop like flies against you. Oh well, if it makes grinding faster...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 12, 2010, 05:01:39 AM
20F "Final" Boss consists of:

Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!
Magic Drain!

EDIT: Now it's all:
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!
PAR proc!

Repeat ad infinitum.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 12, 2010, 06:35:53 AM
I have made it to the 10F-12F portion of my 2nd playthrough 8)

Pesco,
could you give me the address for increasing a characters Battle Points? Specifically, Rumia, Yomou, Chen, whoever else needs BP to trigger the Orin events, as well as Utsuho and whoever need BP for Flan-chan. I hope this isn't to much to ask.

Quite a tall order you're asking :P. Character specific stats are stored in different addresses for everyone's game.
Quote
Battle points address - char level address = 1C8

Max hp address - char level address = 10

These are hex values. Run a search for a char's hp, you always get at least 2 addresses. The first address will be the max, the second is their current. Use the info above and off you go.

Get your target's max hp address, add 1B8 to the address value and you've got battle points. I'll assume you know the precautions to take.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 07:19:03 AM
Precautions? Like what, back-up saves?

Oh and how do I get Max HP Address? If I need that for the BP then thats 1 more thing to figure out v_v
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 12, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
Read the instructions... When you search for an hp value, you get 2 (assuming you don't do it during combat) The first address is the max, the second one is the current value.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 07:31:02 AM
Read the instructions... When you search for an hp value, you get 2 (assuming you don't do it during combat) The first address is the max, the second one is the current value.

I have no clue how to search for the hp value v_v I tried a scan using the targets current max hp, and 10+ addresses showed up in the results on the left...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 07:42:23 AM
I have no clue how to search for the hp value v_v I tried a scan using the targets current max hp, and 10+ addresses showed up in the results on the left...

I haven't used this cheat program at all, so I don't know if you can do this, but level up or something and re-search, that should narrow the parameters. Dunno if researching will reset the results completely or not.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 08:00:17 AM
I have 0 clue what I am doing here :( help please
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 08:22:52 AM
Argh, I'm not getting any more 30F drops wahhhhh! I think I can take on all the trash there now. Except maybe
utusho mk2, maybe flandre, haven't even seen her yet
been too scared to try knowing she has defense ignoring nukes, I hate those.

edit:
I swear I have superpowers, whenever I complain about something in a game, my problem gets solved. Just nabbed an awakened exoskeleton. All stats including hp and sp +150%, all status resists +15, all elemental resists +60. sweeeeet.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Fishin on February 12, 2010, 10:24:28 AM
I have 0 clue what I am doing here :( help please
Finding BP addresses is actually really easy to do manually with Cheat Engine.

- Unknown initial value, click first scan
- Win into a random battle with Chen in your party of 4
- Increased value by, enter "2", click next scan
- Swap the rest of your party out except Chen, do increased value by 2 again
- Put Chen into your reserves, win another battle, "value unchanged", and hit next scan
- The only remaining address should be Chen's BP, rinse and repeat with other characters

You might be able to do it faster by checking BP in the middle of a battle since you get one for being on the front line at the start and one at the end, but it's quick enough normally that I never bothered.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 12, 2010, 12:23:42 PM
I have 0 clue what I am doing here :( help please

1. Search for target hp and get figures
2. Equip gear that adjusts hp and look at figures again
3. ???
4. Follow instructions from above and profit
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 12, 2010, 03:11:33 PM
Goal today when I get home (along with writing THAT) is to get Reimu past level 100. Mr. Man's (my new nickname) Nature form is looking to be his hardest after the original form, for three reasons:

1. POISON LOL
2. That one form-specific attack of his that deals like a million damage to everyone
3. The fact that I have no wind nukes (I assume that's his weakness at least)

The fact that I have no status healers makes the first one very worrying, as even Tenshi is vulnerable to Poison. Is Sanae worth bringing into my team even though she'd be a liability otherwise?

Also, just for the record, let me see if I have the weaknesses down:

Spirit: Mystic
Mystic: Spirit
Cold: Fire
Fire: Cold
Nature: Wind
Wind: Nature

It's also a little hard to distinguish which form I am just from looks sometimes. :( I didn't even know I was fighting his cold form until he threw Icicle Coffin at me.

Some miscellaneous questions:

1. Do his forms retain their current health if he form shifts before I destroy one?
2. I just KNOW he has some massive end-nuke once I break all his forms. What do I have to watch out for?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 12, 2010, 03:28:51 PM
1. Do his forms retain their current health if he form shifts before I destroy one?
2. I just KNOW he has some massive end-nuke once I break all his forms. What do I have to watch out for?

1. Yes.
2. No new omgwtf nuke, but he gets a move that increases ATK, DEF, MAG and MND by 66%, which will basically turn Heavenly Demise into his omgwtf nuke. It's entirely random whether he chooses to use it or not though.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 12, 2010, 03:30:57 PM
Wow. Just nuked
Mokou's
final phase with a 103k Master Spark. No idea it would become that powerful just by adding 20 more skill point levels...

EDIT: And two 120k ones along with some Silent Selene and Spear the Gungnir spam brought down
Yuyuko
without very much trouble. That's two new characters recruited in as many hours... Though the character list tells me I'm missing three between
Mokou
and
Suika
?

EDITAGAIN: And 130k against
Orin
... Though that fight seemed like it had been made really easy to compensate for having to fight all those knights beforehand. I mean, her Flowing Hellfire barely even harmed Cirno...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 05:26:47 PM
1. Search for target hp and get figures
2. Equip gear that adjusts hp and look at figures again
3. ???
4. Follow instructions from above and profit

Ok... I'll assume that Search for target HP = Scan for target HP... which means something is f***ed up. I input Chens HP, scan and I either get more then 15 addresses with the same value, or I get 0 addresses.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: yoshicookiezeus on February 12, 2010, 05:32:03 PM
Oh wow. That
Aster Sigil Guardian
is just pitiful... Sure, it can KO any one of my characters (including
Tenshi
with 100% defence boost) in one attack, but what does that matter when you can keep it in a state of constant paralysis from the first attack until the end of the battle?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Jaimers on February 12, 2010, 06:14:43 PM
WHAT!? I WAS RIGHT!?  :o

Right from the beginning I suspected Rinnosuke, because of something he said in the intro cutscene.
So I thought to myself: "The final boss is probably MANnosuke, hur hur"
And after the F12 cutscene, it turned out I was right from the start!  :V

So yeah, beat the F12 boss trio.
Patchy pretty much went solo on this one, as buffing her MND makes her a fucking tank in this fight. She takes 0 damage from almost everything and is almost impossible to kill. Combine that with Iku's 100% MAG buffs and the fight was over before you knew it.

Should probably go back and fight
Tenshi
now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 06:39:13 PM
1. POISON LOL
2. That one form-specific attack of his that deals like a million damage to everyone
3. The fact that I have no wind nukes (I assume that's his weakness at least)


It's also a little hard to distinguish which form I am just from looks sometimes. :( I didn't even know I was fighting his cold form until he threw Icicle Coffin at me.
1.Your big tanks should have equipment on the make them at least mostly protected against all ailments. ESPECIALLY Tenshi, since her self-buff has bad side effects, you want her to have a Ribbon or Shuttle Body on her, no questions asked.

Useful items for buffing resistances are Stars of Elendil (Or the slightly weaker versions, Phial of Galadriel), Ribbon, Shuttle Body. You'll get some more cool stuff for this in 19F chests.

2.At least two tanks with DEF/MND buffs should ALWAYS be out against Rinnosuke. Tenshi and 16F girl should do, and you might want 3 (Tenshi-Ran-16F should work, equip Ran with some DEF/MND/Resistance boosting gear and make sure her buffs stay up).

With 2~3 buffed tanks out you shouldn't have to worry about game-overing at all, just keep up the buffs and bring in Sanae/Reimu for healing when needed.

The 4th character should be whoever is ideal for damaging the current form, and use Fire Form to focus/heal/etc. Don't take out Fire Form until it's the only one left, as it doesn't have dangerous attacks or any kind of status effects. And take out Spirit easily with a Master Spark, it can cause DTH.

As for identifying the forms, the color will correspond with the ones associated to the element of course; Fire will be red, Wind will be yellow, Mystic is purple, etc. Cold and Spirit are the only ones you could mix up, just keep in mind Spirit looks a lot more white and magic-y.

Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 12, 2010, 07:13:07 PM
While grinding to my 120s (because 116 obviously had far too much risk in it for me), I thought I got pretty lucky with the drops so far.

(http://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/12/80/32/92/th/untitl13.png) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=385&u=12803292)
I have duplicates of a few (read: 1-2) of them as well  :V

Also, I'm debating on whether to increase Marisa's MND or not. And maybe HP alongside it considering that I can barely find any holes for me to swap in and Spark. SPD is also another alternative it would seem.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 07:17:33 PM
While grinding to my 120s (because 116 obviously had far too much risk in it for me), I thought I got pretty lucky with the drops so far.

(http://i60.servimg.com/u/f60/12/80/32/92/th/untitl13.png) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=385&u=12803292)
I have duplicates of a few (read: 1-2) of them as well  :V
I hate you. To tell the truth, I had all but 1 before I beat the final boss on my first play. On my second though, this time, where I'm actually playing Plus-Disk so it really matters... I didn't get even ONE until lv170, and nothing more yet ;-;

Also, boosting Marisa's SPD is a great idea (she has good SPD), and try not to switch her in if something with a physical multi-hit is about to attack. Boosting her HP and MND is good for helping her survive magical multi-hits which is reasonable, and also means you could use her just for regular attacking if you wanted.

And definitely boost those Affinities. They should cost next to nothing to get over 110. You don't need to give Marisa equipment to boost them, they aren't really low or expensive unlike SOME characters~
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 08:01:02 PM
Holy yokai Jesus baity, I only got armands before boss got pwnt. How many goats did you sacrifice?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 12, 2010, 08:03:45 PM
I never touched Affinities yet, because I thought it would get too costly for such a small "benefit".
/cheapskate
.

Grinded to 127 without me realizing it. (Grinding on) 20F is fast once you know how to take on each enemy encounter. Might as well make another serious attempt now once I spend all these Skill Points.

How many goats did you sacrifice?
0 goats and 1 Donut  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 08:10:41 PM
Well, boost em! Most important is on anyone who has affinities under 100. I mean, going from 91 to 100 is 3 levels for 10% less damage. And they really cost almost nothing at first, you're getting like 10k SKP per battle, whats a cost of less then 100 points?

And yeah, you could possibly win at that point. Considering your performance on earlier bosses, I think its likely.

0 goats and 1 Donut  :V
That explains all the blood on the forum from earlier  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 08:31:08 PM
And yeah, you could possibly win at that point. Considering your performance on earlier bosses Considering your equipment is better than someone who used the newgame+ feature, I think its likely.

I totally forget what level I beat t he final boss at. I think it was 140, and even then that was above what I needed to be. I just didn't want to take the chance of losing after a 40 min battle. You should scrag her asap, Shouldn't be too bad with that gear, you probably have a better party setup too if you looked at the character's stats and formulas on the wiki before choosing.

Last, you don't want to spoil the post game material by being over level for it, trust me. It's really quite cool IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 08:33:02 PM
Last, you don't want to spoil the post game material by being over level for it, trust me. It's really quite cool IMO.
As if this is even possible without massive overlevelling  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 08:43:03 PM
As if this is even possible without massive overlevelling  :V

Some of it is, I beat a couple of the post-game optionals immediately after completing the game.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 12, 2010, 09:29:45 PM
Doo doo doo doot doo doo doo doo-doot doo~ (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=386&u=12803292)

5 KOs.

1 from instadeath (isn't it sad, Alice?  ;_;), 3 from
Hyperdimensional Flying Object
(Everybody placed into the first slot died instantly) and 1 from leaving Marisa out in the open after Sparking, hoping that would've taken out a limb  :V
Guess I was fortunate enough that the boss didn't buff twice.

"I accidentally the left arm" as well, after trying to debuff it constantly with Alice and
Eirin
. Again, unexpected victory this time by
Yukari's Shikigami "Yakumo Ran+"
for a whopping 41k.

EDIT: Also! Also...
I still haven't raised any Elemental Affinities
.
Just to get it out there  :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 09:50:34 PM
Baity hacks >:

If you're interested in post-game content, the first part is this

Ver.2 bosses on 4F(1), 5F(3?), 9F(Bloodstained), 10F(1), 12F(2), 18F(1), 19F(4), and 20F(5 and a bloodstained). Then after beating all 4 bloodstained bosses you unlock the final one on 1F.

Also, Boss Rush right below relay point at 20F. You get the final item for beating that.

You get a star for beating the game, collecting all 32 non-plus characters, all 100 items, all bloodstained bosses beaten, and all ver.2 bosses beaten. Getting stars lets you pass through more of the new teleporters, and with all 5 you can fight Final Boss Ver.2 (Which gets you 2 new characters for winning)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 12, 2010, 10:04:32 PM
all 100 items
...guess its finally time to fire up the wiki. Wait:
Also, Boss Rush right below relay point at 20F. You get the final item for beating that.
Oh ok. Half my work done already!

I might also consider doing a second playthrough alongside the post-game with the more "unused" characters and see how good they are.

Baity hacks >:
Lies.

I should probably post my team as well for the curious.

Reimu
Marisa
Chen
ChiMeat Shield Mk I
Minoriko
Alice
Yuugi
Ran
Eirin
Yuyuko
*
Flan
Yukari

I also used and swapped in and out (depending on the Boss) these people:

Youmu
Suwako
*
Sanae
Suika

*Did not spend any Skill Points for this character
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 10:29:55 PM
You'll get the other last item by exploring the new part of 20F. Be careful not to run into one of the bosses in there though.

And I did that (new game with diff chars), it's pretty fun.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 10:30:03 PM
Anybody know what egg does? I'm trying to farm good 30F items, and haven't gotten egg yet. Don't know if I should bother trying to get one, or if I should just run away from the enemy that drops it so I can devote more time fighting enemies that drop stuff I KNOW is good..

according to the Japanese wiki egg gives:
HP80% SP +100% magic recovery rate +350% +24% heat, cold, wind, natural immunity +128 killed instantly, low resistance +50

350% recovery rate?! That has to be wrong, what's low resistance? gah, it makes no sense.

Quote
You'll get the other last item by exploring the new part of 20F. Be careful not to run into one of the bosses in there though.

One of the bosses on 30F was the very first one I beat actually, I think it had another easy one as well.. The difficulty of the bosses mk2 is not really dependant on what floor they are found on IMO.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Serela on February 12, 2010, 10:31:03 PM
350% recovery rate?! That has to be wrong, what's low resistance? gah, it makes no sense.

One of the bosses on 30F was the very first one I beat actually, I think it had another easy one as well.. The difficulty of the bosses mk2 is not really dependant on what floor they are found on IMO.
Maybe its actually 35% recovery. Also, low resistance is Debuff resist.

And that is true, but two of them will surely kill him at his level. Also lol30Ftypo
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 10:33:11 PM
Maybe its actually 35% recovery. Also, low resistance is Debuff resist.

And that is true, but two of them will surely kill him at his level. Also lol30Ftypo

If you're right, I should just try and farm more exoskeletons and immortal badges.

edit:
Is there some kind of free excel editor software someone can suggest? I rekon it would speed up writing those nasty level up/skill point formulas if I can make an excel document for it instead of..well. writing it all.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 12, 2010, 10:38:03 PM
80% hp, SP + 100 points, mag +350%, Eva +24%, affs (except mys and spi) +128, dth and debuff +50. Rec + 24%
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 10:41:22 PM
80% hp, SP + 100 points, mag +350%, Eva +24%, affs (except mys and spi) +128, dth and debuff +50. Rec + 24%

Thanks, Sounds like good master spark gear >=P.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 12, 2010, 11:10:04 PM
Ok guys, I followed your advice and yet nothing works :ohdear: Any tips?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on February 12, 2010, 11:11:03 PM
Thanks, Sounds like good master spark gear >=P.
I think this item is better (http://i50.tinypic.com/2d7zf49.jpg)
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 11:13:48 PM
I think this item is better (http://i50.tinypic.com/2d7zf49.jpg)

That isn't obtainable via 30F trash...
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on February 12, 2010, 11:19:32 PM
That isn't obtainable via 30F trash...
I know, just saying. Though I wonder why the Wiki doesn't have items from pages 11-15
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 12, 2010, 11:32:45 PM
I know, just saying. Though I wonder why the Wiki doesn't have items from pages 11-15

I plan on updating that part of the wiki (sans the where it drops part) after I finish filling up page 15 myself.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Axel Ryman on February 12, 2010, 11:54:46 PM
I plan on updating that part of the wiki (sans the where it drops part) after I finish filling up page 15 myself.

I'm working on putting in the items as we speak just to get them on. I'm guessing Pages 11-15 are Plus Disk only?(I forget where most of the items I got were from) If so, I'll probably put on the Page 11 bar that its Plus Disk only.

So far I got pages 11 and 12 done on the edit, working on 13 now so I'll be done in about 10-15 minutes.

Edit: Done. Only thing left to include for them is the locations.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 13, 2010, 01:45:03 AM
I managed to actually destroy 3 of Mr. Man's forms, but nature destroyed me again. :<

I do like how I've reached the point where I can see a visible improvement every level gained, since most characters increase their best stats by 100 or more per level.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Deranged on February 13, 2010, 01:51:19 AM
edit:
Is there some kind of free excel editor software someone can suggest? I rekon it would speed up writing those nasty level up/skill point formulas if I can make an excel document for it instead of..well. writing it all.

I use OpenOffice's Calc program.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Garlyle on February 13, 2010, 04:22:27 AM
That isn't obtainable via 30F trash...
No, it's not.  But it's a drop from one of the 30F bosses - the first two of whom become refightable after beating the last one.  So Yeah.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 13, 2010, 04:28:50 AM
No, it's not.  But it's a drop from one of the 30F bosses - the first two of whom become refightable after beating the last one.  So Yeah.

I can't even safely take on the first boss (he can one shot anybody he pleases with his stupid cheap ass defense ignore attacks), so, not an option >=p

It's just good to farm for the other items from floor 30.. Because it also gives good exp. 27F gives more faster yes, but it doesn't reward me with any good items, and more importantly. *IM BORED OUTTA MY SKULL* doing it for over 150 levels now.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 13, 2010, 05:01:28 AM
;-;

I destroyed every one of Mr. Man's forms, but he had killed all my nukers, leaving me unable to kill him before he MANS UP and slaughtered my remaining people. I can now see that this is possible...but very hard, and requiring a fair amount of luck on his first form still.

How much health does his last phase have?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 13, 2010, 05:26:04 AM
To be honest, not much donut. I beat "mr.man" on like my 3rd attempt, at which point things like Heavenly Demise actually hit some chars like Patchy for 0 and Scarlet Gold Sword hit my tanks and ATK nukes for either 0, or little amounts. In the end, it's all about lasting out/taking as little damage as posible while dealing as much as possible.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 13, 2010, 05:27:46 AM
Quote
Heavenly Demise hit Patchy for 0

Wut.

Heavenly demise is a OHKO for Patchy, Suwako, and Kaguya. What level were you AT?! Of course he'd be easy at that point!

EDIT: Also, just reached Reimu level 100. That's enough for now, methinks. Also, I've been grinding for about 6 in-game hours lol.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 13, 2010, 05:40:49 AM
Wut.

Heavenly demise is a OHKO for Patchy, Suwako, and Kaguya. What level were you AT?! Of course he'd be easy at that point!

Heavenly demise uses both mnd and def. Patchy tends to have more mnd than most "beefy" people have mnd and def combined, Tenshi is the only one that wins out for me. sounds like you're neglecting her mnd thinking it's high enough to take 0 from magic anyway? I dunno. It really helps to take 0 from all composite attacks too.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 13, 2010, 05:42:27 AM
Doesn't a composite attack take into account both defense and mind? If so, wouldn't a character that had a million mind and zero defense still take quite a bit of damage?
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 13, 2010, 05:43:46 AM
It "combines" them.

If you haven't already started pumping MND, I suggest you start now. If you have and still can't take hits, then leave her in the back until "he" starts Form Changing.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 13, 2010, 05:47:00 AM
Doesn't a composite attack take into account both defense and mind? If so, wouldn't a character that had a million mind and zero defense still take quite a bit of damage?

Yes and no..

composite attack is like
some multiplier X ((attackers attack + attackers Magic) - (defenders defense + defenders mnd).

So let's pretend the attacker has 10k attack and mag, patchy has 20k mnd, and generic other person has 7k mnd, 7k defense.

attacker dude attacks generic dude
1 X (10k + 10k) - (7k + 7k) = 6k damage taken, oooh the pain.

attacker dude attacks patchy
1X (10k + 10k) - (0k + 20k) = 0k damage taken, *queue superman bullet deflect chest flex*.

Of course most attacks have multipliers other than 1 (which wouldn't really matter here), and divide the defense by 2, but you get the gist.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 13, 2010, 05:47:49 AM
...Oh. Well, guess I know where the next 20000 skill points from grinding are gonna go. ;>_> Patchy's mind is at level 42, and still goes for less than 2000 a pop.

Tomorrow...I feel it, tomorrow I will beat him.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: LHCling on February 13, 2010, 05:53:48 AM
Tomorrow...I feel it, tomorrow I will beat him.
This is coming off with an anime-like feeling to me. You all know what I'm talking about  :V

By the way, I'd also like to ask what people think are the 4 worst playable characters for me that aren't in the Plus-Disk. Reason? Fun (http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fun).
2nd runthrough planning and stuff
. Spoiler Tags for anything 5F and up please.

EDIT: Thread about to end. Hm.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 13, 2010, 06:09:08 AM
That is how I took 0 from Heavenly demise :D I thought it was magic btw, but if it's Composite then thats even better since Composites are easier to screw over dmg wise then Non-Composite moves. I think you could already picture an example of this at work, Remi's Spear the Gungnir and Reimu's Yin-Yang orb and Fantasy Seal. If you used these 3 moves, chances are that Spear did more then either of Reimu's moves.
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Ghaleon on February 13, 2010, 06:49:23 AM
By the way, I'd also like to ask what people think are the 4 worst playable characters for me that aren't in the Plus-Disk

I frequently wonder that myself. I'm not really sure since I haven't really played with them all yet, but here are my candidates and why...If my reasons why don't ring true (some of these I don't have much play experience with, so if you know it to be wrong, then cross it out), then well don't count them as bad.

spoilering it:
Sakuya: At first I thought she was good for the speed buffing. But really, it's not a great feature. Aya provides better speed buffing ability, and can outdps Sakuya too. Pretty much anybody can out dps Sakuya on a tough fight. Her problem is that she has no good way to dps bosses. Killing doll is great against 0 defense targets, but that's about it. Unless you're over level, it will often do 0, or some dissapointing number. While most bosses don't have much defense, they don't NEED much to make killing doll pretty weak. Soul sculpture is not really a great solution to a high defense boss either. While she might be tankier than Aya, she still isn't quite tank material. I use her in my playthru, and she really doesn't perform anything important other than having some other character there while someone more important regens or something.

I think Sakuya was supposed to be good because of high accuracy, and evade got canned, so Sakuya got the raw end of the deal.

Cirno: Absolutely amazing character against bosses who aren't immune to the slow effect...I haven't really played her past floor 9 (I deleted my save), but it seemed most of the difficult bosses were immune, and I KNOW most of the late game bosses are immune. Seems like 16F boss is the only one where she might be useful for. Whlie paralize might come in handy occasionally, I find Reimu is better at that anyway...and you're pretty much forced to use Reimu anyway.

Iku: Her attack spells are pretty awful considering how squishy she is. Her buff might seem nice since it's your only good source of attack/magic buff. But it doesn't provide a whole lot, it's only single target, and it has that dumb paralize. WHY would you want her for this buff when you could simply use someone like Renko, Sanae, Ran, the oodles of othe rpeople who can buff that stat WITHOUT a nasty paralize. Most of the examples provide better abilities in other areas too IMO. Her defense debuffs also are pretty lame. Most bosses don't have much defense to begin with as is, and most bosses are immune to debuffs, so err...lame.

Youmu: I'm not sure about this one. She's awful early game for sure. Late game you get so much sp you might be able to spam her big nuke. Thing is the delay on it is god awful, and she has absolutely no utility. It depends on how much dps she can provide spamming her big nuke late game, if it offsets the bad delay. I suspect just using Yuugi would be better though, Yuugi has better stats in many catagories too.

Reisen: She kinda has sakuya syndrome, where her attacks lack defense piercing. Not as bad though. Her stats really suck though given how bad her spells already are. Debuffs are nice, but they rarely work. Her magic is not bad after her self buff, but her other stats will still stay bad.

Mokou: This one I'm not too sure about. I don't like her because she has nothing to do but damage pretty much. Looking at her stats and the spell formulas, none seem very damaging for their delay. Her single target nuke isn't bad. 2X2mag is a good formula for a 50% delay move. But her problem is she cannot buff herself to make this excellent, nor is she tanky enough to really do this near the front, like SO MANY other pretty-good but not patchy/flandre quality dpsers can.. bah. I think she's still better than the others though, but she definately deserves mention IMO.

Rinnosuke: He has cooties, nuff' said.
[/spoilers]
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Milkyway64 on February 13, 2010, 07:47:42 AM
In no particular order;


Sakuya: Ghaleon already nailed it. She had minor use early game for trash sweeping when Reimu/Marisa was out of SP, but past that, she just doesn't seem to do much.

Wriggle: So far as I know, she's useful for one fight and one fight only; Alice. Past that, poison just seems to make no real difference, small enough so that it is made up for by a higher DPSer.

Aya: I just don't see the appeal. Chen did perfectly fine as a speed demon and had some excellent DPS with defense piercing qualities. Aya seems to be an inferior Chen with a speed buff, which is nice on paper but in practice not so much, especially since I'd get to use it on average twice before Aya gets gibbed.

Orin: Excellent for wiping the floor with floor 13 enemies during that floor 16 grindwall. Past that, I found no use for her.

HM Eirin: Eirin is awesome, as far as I know. Decent damage output, multiple element attacks, and overheal with all around average to above average stats. Eirin also happens to be one of my favorite touhou characters. However, Eirin on my personal experience just gets... rolled. Unexplainably. Her defensive stats are good, she overheals herself, but she just gets laid out by EVERYTHING and I never understood why. I personally blame bad luck, but it's put Eirin in a sort of inside joke status as being as frail as Patchy.

Also, I'm still willing to smack Ghaleon for saying
Rinnosuke
is bad. :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: MysTeariousYukari on February 13, 2010, 08:07:46 AM
I agree with Milky on that very last bit, just replace smack with poke-spam :V

Rinnosuke, I honestly find to him be very good. He has 5 moves and all find a way to be used commonly. Toss in his good stats seemingly best overall stat growths in the game and you will see that his only flaw is that his level speed is one of, if not the worst in the game, but even then this is easily fixed by actually using him.

Although if Ghaleon dislikes Rinnosuke cause Rinnosuke is a guy, then I have nothing to complain about, making my above bit useless :V
Title: Re: Labyrinth of Touhou discussion thread #2
Post by: Pesco on February 13, 2010, 08:44:18 AM
This is a good game.

/thread