Author Topic: Defense of the Ancients  (Read 15221 times)

Ghaleon

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Defense of the Ancients
« on: June 25, 2009, 07:44:13 AM »
Any Dota fans here? I just don't get what makes this game so "good" in so many people's opinion. The balance is apparently garbage since I have yet to win a game without people claiming "zomg that hero is so op". Your guys only have 4 moves at most.. assuming you have no passives. And even then you do not even have access to all your moves until fairly late in the game.

The community is what I rekon is "mugen bad" (I've not played mugen, but I can't believe it can be much worse). There isn't even esthetically good parts of the game in terms of graphics, sound, or music. It doesn't even require much in terms of strategy other than being aware of what items are ideal for each hero, or against your enemies. Not only that, but the learning curve is unforgiving as @%#@% due to the stagging amount of heroes you have to learn to fight against. Winning or losing is determined by which team has someone who freaks out and quits prematurely more than anything else it seems... blah.

Anyway I had some buddies that insisted I try the game, and I did..quite a bit with them. I've even got to the point where I'm considered "unfair" to have on a team with 1 or 2 of their best players. But I still feel like the game is a joke. Now if I could get them to play something worthwhile like Titanquest...mmmm.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:05:08 AM by Kilgamayan »

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 07:46:54 AM »
I fucking agree. My friends and my brother always play it but i still love Warcraft 3 and other mods for the game like Line Tower wars, Line hero wars
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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 07:57:24 AM »
I prefer TDs myself, but will take the occasional game of DotA.

I believe there is balance to an extent, in a rock-paper-scissors way. Any hero can be good in the right player's hands. I've seen a Techies beat Razor 1v1 with no bombs or suicide, both at level 25 with maxed items. Razor lost because he underestimated the other player.

The main appeal to me is the matchup variations that are possible. Of course with most people playing AP, it's unlikely to get to see too many combinations.

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 08:48:44 AM »
...DotA not good? If you're judging the game solely by its community bitching because they suck, you are sorely mistaken.

Any Dota fans here? I just don't get what makes this game so "good" in so many people's opinion. The balance is apparently garbage since I have yet to win a game without people claiming "zomg that hero is so op". Your guys only have 4 moves at most.. assuming you have no passives. And even then you do not even have access to all your moves until fairly late in the game.

Suck less. There IS balance. If there are people whining about a hero being "op" then they just suck. Usually when I die it's because I make a stupid mistake or my opponent has outfarmed me intensely, not because "the hero is OP," because I can usually get assisted kills on them anyway. The key to DotA is practice. I've played for several years, and I know I still have a ways to go before being considered "good."

Quote
The community is what I rekon is "mugen bad" (I've not played mugen, but I can't believe it can be much worse). There isn't even esthetically good parts of the game in terms of graphics, sound, or music. It doesn't even require much in terms of strategy other than being aware of what items are ideal for each hero, or against your enemies. Not only that, but the learning curve is unforgiving as @%#@% due to the stagging amount of heroes you have to learn to fight against. Winning or losing is determined by which team has someone who freaks out and quits prematurely more than anything else it seems... blah.

Yes, DotA has become mainly item-based now, but that's just being close-minded. This guy is considered to be extremely controversial because of how he plays the game. Watch his videos and you will see just how it is possible to win not without items but with actual skill and mind-games. Graphics? Sound? Music? This is a fucking WC3x custom map, with already a shitload of custom heroes and items done for it, you should quit complaining and go back to your hentai TD maps.

Plus, DotA is heavily teamwork based. There is a shiny little number next to your kills and deaths called assists. Pubbies rarely give a shit about it but it's a good indicator of what kind of player you are - lots of assists = good, since it shows that you care about your team and making sure your carries get kills over you. In pub games, there is a staggering trend of heroes used ANYWAY, so really, the only time you worry about "retarded learning curve" is if you plan to take your game to competitive leagues, IH games, and such. And quitters, though they cna break the game at times, don't necessarily halt a team's progress in winning - I've made comebacks even though there were leavers.

I fucking agree. My friends and my brother always play it but i still love Warcraft 3 and other mods for the game like Line Tower wars, Line hero wars

The other custom maps are fun, I don't disagree with you there. But seriously.

Any hero can be good in the right player's hands. I've seen a Techies beat Razor 1v1 with no bombs or suicide, both at level 25 with maxed items.

The main appeal to me is the matchup variations that are possible. Of course with most people playing AP, it's unlikely to get to see too many combinations.

Thank you. Seriously.



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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 09:01:28 AM »
As with any game that features billions of characters, the best first step is not to try and learn everything, but to stick with one or two characters and frigging master them, thus learning how to use your own strengths well whilst passively absorbing information on your enemies. Yeah sure games still have high learning curves, but, frankly, that's not an inherently bad thing, and dota is not one of the worst offenders by far.

A lot of complaints seem based on the 'public team game' format. Well, it's.. a game, played on the internet, with randoms- it's like complaining that driving a car is stupid, because people cut you off sometimes.

Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 09:09:21 AM »
I was addicted to DoTA for a while, but I was playing inhouse games with a group that really did focus on teamwork.

Competitive DoTA generally has "higher tier" hero combinations (think fighting games) and a lot of teamwork/organization. Public games are a totally different story, and I don't recommend playing in them because, like you said, a team always has one guy who ragequits.

Like others have said, some heroes generally do better at hero killing than others. Other heroes fulfill support roles to make hero killing even easier. It's a great game with a lot of depth. Not to mention, there's the individual control required from each player.

If you want to try playing with some nice people who help each other get better, check out this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64016
Not sure if they're still active, because I haven't played in a while.

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 09:25:10 AM »
tl.net link detected. Hunting for starcraft players will now commence.

Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 09:40:34 AM »
DoTA is Pretty stupid because everyone takes it so seriously. So I never learned how to play any of the characters cause if you're not prefect and know what your doing right off the bat then you get kicked always. I played Naruto Wars as an AOE b/c people actually let you try and learn to play the game b/c it was so hard to get even or full teams so often nubs joined. I quit Warcraft after I got WOW and don't plan on going back anytime soon.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:17:59 AM by Cadmas »

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 10:12:32 AM »
...if your not prefect and know what your doing right off the bat then you get kicked always.

This is why you grab some of your friends and play with them. Less kicking and more learning that way.

Also, learn the difference between "your" and "you're", goddamn.

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 10:15:37 AM »
I personally like WC3 better than WOW. WOW is boring without friends but WC3 is still fun without  friends but less fun. And I am a Pro at Line Tower Wars (EYE AM THE STRONGEST)
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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 10:19:21 AM »
lol Friends. I don't have any. Internet sucks for making friends.

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 10:20:55 AM »
No wonder you're a NEET
"DUMBASS!" "I'd hit it" "Bear-sona~!" "Critical hits to the nads!" "What you're really asking is... "Will you please beat the **** out of me, Kanji?" "...I Gotta pee." ''Everydays great at your Junes~'' "You calling me a loser?"

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 10:24:03 AM »
lol Friends. I don't have any. Internet sucks for making friends.

If you can't make friends on the friggin' internet, then you must be doing something very, very wrong.

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Re: I don't understand why people like DOTA
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 10:28:32 AM »
The PvPGN server in my country must be quite friendly by the standards you guys get.

We don't endorse custom kick (bannable offence) and have a system to punish game leavers. If a guy is just learning the game, he'll just have to rough out the verbal abuse for a while.

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 05:08:01 PM »
Creating a thread about a game in order to denounce it is generally not good form.

Well anyway I must admit I don't really see the appeal of the game. I haven't played it, but by my understanding you only control one hero...doesn't that make the game very shallow compared to actual WC3, where you control multiple heroes plus a whole army while managing a base?

Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 06:16:57 PM »
Na rather than using a bunch of basic heroes, the heroes are more in depth and by getting items the play changes. It's not bad and can be fun or frustrating depending on how you
view it. Just in my experience Battle-net players are way elitist and egotistical.

Ghaleon

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 08:02:05 PM »
Enjoying games is like enjoying art. Different people have different tastes. I truly was interested in what the appeal is for Dota for those that enjoy it. I don't see how that's bad form.

I also like how someone who has never seen me play, or complain about imbalance in the game (notice how I didn't personally say it was imbalanced) tells me to suck less. I know I'm not the best dota player out there, I'd probably get pwnt into oblivion by everyone in a professional league tournament. But it's still a judgemental thing to say. And for the record, I don't play tower defense games... or any games on warcraft 3 unless a buncha buddies are playing (rarely)it and I join in for the fun.

As for learning the game by picking a few heroes and excelling at them. The learning curve is still very high for new people even if you do that, because you are completely unaware of what your ENEMIES are capable of doing. Maybe you don't know pudge can yoink you thru the trees into an ambush. Maybe you don't know that if the enemy has that mecho-goblin, that you should be aware that there are invisible land mines. Maybe you don't know wandering thru the woods alone is a very bad idea if one of your enemies is that omnislash guy. You basically have to memorize every single hero in order to not get yourself killed and look like an idiot when someone else is that hero against you.

Generally a high learning curve is something that doesn't bug me so much normally, but combined with a terrible community. It really does make it nasty (note I've already consider myself past learning past community accepting standards).

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 11:42:15 PM »
Well anyway I must admit I don't really see the appeal of the game. I haven't played it, but by my understanding you only control one hero...doesn't that make the game very shallow compared to actual WC3, where you control multiple heroes plus a whole army while managing a base?

Several heroes would like to say hi to you:

Anyone who relies on Necronomicon in their strategy
Rexxar
Enigma
Anyone who relies on Manta Style in their strategy
Slithice
Nessaj
Chen, definitely this guy
Aiushtha
Anyone who uses Helm of Dominator early-game

I also like how someone who has never seen me play, or complain about imbalance in the game (notice how I didn't personally say it was imbalanced) tells me to suck less. I know I'm not the best dota player out there, I'd probably get pwnt into oblivion by everyone in a professional league tournament. But it's still a judgemental thing to say. And for the record, I don't play tower defense games... or any games on warcraft 3 unless a buncha buddies are playing (rarely)it and I join in for the fun.

As for learning the game by picking a few heroes and excelling at them. The learning curve is still very high for new people even if you do that, because you are completely unaware of what your ENEMIES are capable of doing. Maybe you don't know pudge can yoink you thru the trees into an ambush. Maybe you don't know that if the enemy has that mecho-goblin, that you should be aware that there are invisible land mines. Maybe you don't know wandering thru the woods alone is a very bad idea if one of your enemies is that omnislash guy. You basically have to memorize every single hero in order to not get yourself killed and look like an idiot when someone else is that hero against you.

Generally a high learning curve is something that doesn't bug me so much normally, but combined with a terrible community. It really does make it nasty (note I've already consider myself past learning past community accepting standards).

STOP WHINING ABOUT IMBALANCE IF YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY DEAR LORD

I'll give you license for complaining about an insane learning curve if you are dissuaded from playing it but for fuck's sake, if you don't play the game, you have no fucking place to say that the game itself is imbalanced >_>;; And memorizing every single hero is easier than it sounds. Anyone worth their salt knows you don't ever engage Yurnero on his own, that you  use Sentry Wards to see every single damn mine the Techies lay down, etc. Again, don't complain about these aspects of the game if you don't even play it.

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Ghaleon

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2009, 12:02:55 AM »
STOP WHINING ABOUT IMBALANCE IF YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY DEAR LORD

I'll give you license for complaining about an insane learning curve if you are dissuaded from playing it but for fuck's sake, if you don't play the game, you have no fucking place to say that the game itself is imbalanced >_>;; And memorizing every single hero is easier than it sounds. Anyone worth their salt knows you don't ever engage Yurnero on his own, that you  use Sentry Wards to see every single damn mine the Techies lay down, etc. Again, don't complain about these aspects of the game if you don't even play it.

holy shit. learn to read. I DID NOT SAY IT IS IMBALANCED. *facepalm*.

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2009, 12:04:17 AM »
holy shit. learn to read. I DID NOT SAY IT IS IMBALANCED. *facepalm*.

oh, shit. I fail at reading.

Sorry, I tend to be like that when there are DotA haters.

I've been scouring the internet for a not-so-assholish DotA community and the first thread I read is a thread BASHING it. So naturally I am royally pissed off.

My point still fucking stands though and isn't really aimed at anyone in particular

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2009, 12:25:14 AM »
Quote
Several heroes would like to say hi to you:

Anyone who relies on Necronomicon in their strategy
Rexxar
Enigma
Anyone who relies on Manta Style in their strategy
Slithice
Nessaj
Chen, definitely this guy
Aiushtha
Anyone who uses Helm of Dominator early-game

The names don't mean anything to me, so can you explain what these guys have to do that equates to managing multiple squads of mixed units plus one or more bases and their workers, in addition to at least one standard hero?

I'm just saying, WC3's UI doesn't seem like it could offer the precision control necessary for the same depth of gameplay by micromanaging one guy as opposed to a whole mess of dudes. Unless there's like...some WC3 equivalent of wavedashing or something.

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2009, 12:56:20 AM »
The names don't mean anything to me, so can you explain what these guys have to do that equates to managing multiple squads of mixed units plus one or more bases and their workers, in addition to at least one standard hero?

I'm just saying, WC3's UI doesn't seem like it could offer the precision control necessary for the same depth of gameplay by micromanaging one guy as opposed to a whole mess of dudes. Unless there's like...some WC3 equivalent of wavedashing or something.

While there is no base management in this game, there is an obscene amount of micromanagement involved, the massively (random) name-dropping is just a few examples of those who need more micromanagement than others. And Force Staff may well be WC3's wavedash (I'm not even kidding). Necronomicon for example, summons two different units with different skills and it is hard as hell to manage them if you suck at micromanagement. Oh, and I forgot to mention Meepo, who, at his peak, has three clones of himself - if one of them dies, they all die. Technically, the only base management you see in this game is you protecting and defending. This is a lot harder than it sounds depending on how ass or how awesmoe your teammates are >_> Honestly, though, I'm tired of defending something if people are just not going to listen to me.

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2009, 01:12:06 AM »
When you cite the following reasons for not liking a game-

1) Lousy community
2) High learning curve

-then the obvious counterpoints are going to be 'I like it because I play with friends instead of jerks, and I don't mind having to learn.' Flip your complaints around and you answer your own question, and you might understand why people are going to take your comments in a poor light.

In general, DotA could be considered fun because it is a pastiche of team-fortress style gameplay combined with an RTS-style interface. It's got opportunity for teamwork and requires fairly good micro skills; you need to pit your wits not only against your immediate opponent, but also your team vs. their team; there's opportunity for really awesome moments, if you set up good ambushes or use certain abilities very well.

It has broad appeal because anyone can get something out of it; twitch gamers enjoy confrontations, team-minded people play on, well, a team, and strategists have everything to consider from hero lineups to items to when to push to when to rosh to.. etc.

Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 01:32:58 AM »
I tend to stay away from DotA but on the few occasions that I play it, it doesn't seem bad. It can certainly be fun.
It's a completely different style of game from wc3 though, so they're not really comparable...

Having said that, I still think wc3 is better ^_^

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 03:38:49 AM »
I for one, hate DotA to the moon and back.

I am a hero defense type of guy and for that, I do mean I enjoy Doomsday (map) more than anything else (before DotA there was that)

I also do hero defense maps like... FORTRESS etc. I forgot the rest, but damn, those were fun.
DotA simply is...ugh.
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Ghaleon

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2009, 07:46:25 AM »
When you cite the following reasons for not liking a game-

1) Lousy community
2) High learning curve

-then the obvious counterpoints are going to be 'I like it because I play with friends instead of jerks, and I don't mind having to learn.' Flip your complaints around and you answer your own question, and you might understand why people are going to take your comments in a poor light.

I don't play dota at all except with friends.. and I don't mind learning. As I said I've already learned it better than most of them (who have been playing for years).

I still feel like it's not my cup of tea. I can respect if other people like it.. It's just.. well. It's VERY popular.. I'm not asking about some random game with a fairly niche crowd that likes it. It's...well... BIG.

So while I have some enjoyment playing the game with my friends when I do. I still feel to myself that we would be having much more fun playing something else. Especially when one of them gets frusterated with the game or something. So for a map mod, I can respect it's excellently done. But the truth is, I just don't see what about it really stands out that makes it irreplaceable to other games.

Schpwette had a pretty good response though. It requires a little bit of everything in a way (which is probably why I learned to be competative with my friends so easily, cuz I'm pretty much the only one that really plays pretty much any genre of game).

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2009, 08:36:58 AM »
...

Now I'm just confused.

Now you're saying the game is bad because... it's... popular? It's certainly not irreplaceable to other games, but you're still not really... I don't know how to put this. I haven't seen any valid reasons for the game sucking >_>

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Ghaleon

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2009, 08:45:23 AM »
...

Now I'm just confused.

Now you're saying the game is bad because... it's... popular? It's certainly not irreplaceable to other games, but you're still not really... I don't know how to put this. I haven't seen any valid reasons for the game sucking >_>

I never said the game was bad. I simply said I don't enjoy it. nor did I say I don't enjoy it because it's popular...

You need to stop assuming I have hidden innuendo with what I'm saying, or whatever it is that you're doing that's causing you to rebute things I've never said >=P.

I'm a very *VERY* literal person, and I wonder about all sorts of useless things that other people would just say "sucks" and walk away from.

I don't enjoy dota, I respect that it's a successful game. As a gamer who doesn't enjoy it, I wonder (read.. wonder, I'm truly interested) what DOTA has that attracts so many people successfully...

For example, I'll try and say why "wow" is so good to the people that enjoy it imo.

Wow is probably the very first MMORPG where any player can start the game with little to no mmorpg experience, and level from 1 all the way to the level cap, easily and smoothly. There was no "zomg priests can't quest past level 30", nor was there zomgwtfpwnt mobs in certain zones that were apparently equal in difficulty as the mob next door (like other mmorpgs had).

Now even if you hate wow, you can't dispute that, that's what makes it special (among other things). It's probably the first mmorpg to cater so much to  "casuals" ever.

THAT is what I'm hoping for with this topic regarding dota. I hope you get what I'm getting at this time >='(.

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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2009, 08:49:32 AM »
I'm sorry, but this is the internet. It's impossible to get away with being too literal.

There are so many subtexts with the things you've been saying that it's rather hard to take your posts at face value without going "there is clearly something wrong with what this person has posted"

>_>


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Re: Defense of the Ancients
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2009, 10:41:58 AM »
Don't play DotA when you don't have at least 4 friends, or else it can get really unfun.
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