Topic: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update  (Read 23159 times)

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Eilaris

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2011, 10:06:15 pm »
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.

Without having actually read up on the specifics of the App Store, XBLA, the Android store, etc., I would assume that this restriction has its roots in licensing issues - namely, a fear that by releasing content in these venues, the creator cedes a degree of control over it to Microsoft or Apple or Google or whoever. 

It's probably a precaution to try to keep Microsoft from claiming legal ownership of the characters if someone releases a Touhou game on XBLA and it turns out to be a smash hit or something. 

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2011, 10:13:35 pm »
Sorry if it's a little bit off-topic, but I'm more interested in the part of the blog entry that was left out of the OP:

Quote
さてさて、例大祭まであと1ヶ月(と見せかけた2月の罠)。
創作活動、楽しんでいきましょう。
バレーンタイーン!

As for the topic at hand, I can't say I'm familiar enough with the system to make any judgement. :S ZUN probably has his reasons.
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Zengar Zombolt

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2011, 10:17:29 pm »
Sorry if it's a little bit off-topic, but I'm more interested in the part of the blog entry that was left out of the OP
Something along the lines of "Enjoy yourselves at the next month's festival".

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2011, 10:19:50 pm »
(First time posting in a long time, wow...)

I have to partially agree with TSO here, in that a total ban on digital distribution through sites like DLShop.com, or just running a Paypal link on your own site, is ludicrous, and exceptionally bad for doujin gamemakers in general - forcing physical distribution for all sold goods is not a good thing.

HOWEVER, I do see ZUN's logic when it comes to saying no to releasing on systems beyond the PC (Xbox Live Indie Games, the iOS platform, and Android's MARKET - note that, by my read, games for Android off of the official market may be OK - double-irony, this would also provide a way to handle physical distribution of Android games). Specifically, I kind of think it would be weird that unofficial games of a series become the only things available on that platform - and I suspect that's what he thinks. As his work has traditionally been only on PCs, he orients himself and wants the community to orient themselves to the PC. Which, as a PC fan, I actually like. (And, as the new comments pointed out, legal ownership issues are annoying.)

I also extend this to Steam, Impulse, and Direct2Drive - major, non-doujin-oriented (well, Steam's got a lot of works that would qualify as doujin by reasonable definitions, but it's not their primary focus) systems, for the same reason - at this point, major download stores qualify as full-on platforms.

That said, to block sales on doujin-oriented download services, or the selling of digital-only versions on a doujin gamemaker's own site, does come across as excessive and a bad move to me.

I will state I'm also someone of the POV that, given the scale that the series has attained, ZUN should honestly just bite the bullet and put up digital distribution of the games as a way of reducing ridiculously rampant piracy (due in part to piracy being the only way to get these games in some cases) - yes, being indie is awesome and all, but putting your older works up for $15 on Steam doesn't hurt your indie cred, by any means, in this day and age. (Plus, being able to say to Valve, "Oh hey, I need some quick money, any chance I could get my stuff on front-page by dropping it to $5 for a week?" never hurts. Just ask Introversion Software.)

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2011, 10:37:44 pm »
I have to partially agree with TSO here, in that a total ban on digital distribution through sites like DLShop.com, or just running a Paypal link on your own site, is ludicrous, and exceptionally bad for doujin gamemakers in general - forcing physical distribution for all sold goods is not a good thing. ... That said, to block sales on doujin-oriented download services, or the selling of digital-only versions on a doujin gamemaker's own site, does come across as excessive and a bad move to me.

How is it "excessive" or "ludicrous"? We're talking about doujin game designers using his work. Is ZUN out of line for setting his terms on the use of his works, for whatever reasons he might have?

I seriously don't get the inflated sense of entitlement that comes up whenever it comes to doujin works. ZUN has been gracious and generous to doujin gamers, more so than his counterparts, and he still is.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2011, 10:45:33 pm »
Again, these are his creations we're talking about. He can set the terms and call the shots when it comes to using them. It doesn't matter if it's because of the money or he doesn't like the format or he had gas that morning. The doujin community is not entitled to use his work in a manner he doesn't like. And he's not laying down some serious unreasonable stuff here.
Yes he's well within his rights, but doesn't mean he's not being shortsighted and inconsistent in his reasonings.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2011, 10:50:50 pm »
How is it "excessive" or "ludicrous"? We're talking about doujin game designers using his work. Is ZUN out of line for setting his terms on the use of his works, for whatever reasons he might have?

I seriously don't get the inflated sense of entitlement that comes up whenever it comes to doujin works. ZUN has been gracious and generous to doujin gamers, more so than his counterparts, and he still is.

As TSO has stated repeatedly, barring digital distribution places a barrier to entry that previously was not there on doujin works, and only serves to encourage piracy of any such work that gets popular, since for many potential fans, piracy may literally become the only way to get that work.

ZUN's logic, as I stated in the post, has at least some sense to it, and I'm not opposed to say the ban on full-scale animations, or the request that permission be a prerequisite for commercial works - however, the blanket ban on digital distribution brings significantly more harm than good to the community - particularly those who like supporting the fangames legitimately.

I'd like to further point out that, under an extreme interpretation, this would even ban free doujin games from being posted on sites that have ads. Given that most free webhosts mandate ads, this increases the barrier to entry for doujin creations even when they are not sold - I think you can see why this might be held as a bad thing.

There's also inevitably going to be significant rankling over ZUN tightening a previously-much-looser leash. Just because the leash is STILL very loose doesn't mean people have no right to be annoyed when it's tightened - especially when it potentially screws over their specific projects.

Kinzo the Astro Curious

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2011, 10:53:41 pm »
Was quite worried when I first read the opening post. Then I read it again to clarify a point I was writing, and realised this isn't as bad as I thought it is. He's not even asking cut the porn in general, just if its a commercial good like a danmakura then don't make it marisa getting mushroomed. Considering its discression and not a ban the usual way they are is probably fine still.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2011, 10:56:29 pm »
There's also inevitably going to be significant rankling over ZUN tightening a previously-much-looser leash. Just because the leash is STILL very loose doesn't mean people have no right to be annoyed when it's tightened - especially when it potentially screws over their specific projects.

They actually don't have much right to be annoyed at all, seeing how they're using someone else's work in their own projects, without compensating him, and all he's asking for is that people like, ask permission and not use certain channels of distribution.

But I guess when you're used to totally free reign to rip off another artist as you please, having that artist place any restrictions whatsoever on what people do with his work will make some people flip their shit.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."
Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2011, 10:59:42 pm »
I have my doubts about people cutting down on the hardcore dojins. Not sure Zun's reasons for that maybe he found the waterducts.

But I'm in agreement on creepy things like dakimakura...

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2011, 11:37:08 pm »
But I guess when you're used to totally free reign to rip off another artist as you please, having that artist place any restrictions whatsoever on what people do with his work will make some people flip their shit.
Yes clearly every single derivative work is simply just ripping off someone else.  ::)  Would ZUN have ever made a Touhou tower defense?  A fighter?  A platformer?  PatchuCon and IaMP are two of my favorite works out of the Touhouverse and MegaMari and Touhouvania are brilliant games.  Seriously, be reasonable.  You'd have a point if someone was taking the TH games and changing the bullet colors to orange and trying to sell that as "derivative", but there's a lot of legitimately creative work out there that just happen to borrow ZUN's character designs. 

Last I checked ZUN had no interest in making fighting games or tower defense games or the multitude of other imaginative games the series has spawned.  Even then noone's arguing that he doesn't have the right to do so.  I'm arguing that he's being inconsistent with his reasonings.  It's one thing to want to approve/deny fanworks in order to maintain creative control and to enforce a set of "canon" and a consistent structure, but the restrictions against digital distribution are purely arbitrary and serve nothing except put a barrier of entry.  It's OK we use his work but only if we sell it on CD and only distribute it at Reitaisai/Comiket/get ripped off at doujin shops.  What sense does that make?

Here's the other thing, ZUN is guilty of the same "crime" of derivative works too (big shock).  PoFV/PoDD are nothing but ripoffs of Twinkle Star Sprites with Touhou characters.  Why is it ok for him to freely rip off other games but when he restricts games based off of his Universe we're suddenly in the wrong for objecting to them?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:40:35 pm by ♪ Tesoro Corporation ♫ »


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2011, 11:38:49 pm »
Truly, ZUN can establish any rules he wishes, yes. If the next day he wakes up and writes down "NO MORE SELLING ANYTHING TOUHOU RELATED" then that becomes a rule that (officially) must not be overlooked.

About the porn.... What might he have in mind? Decency or the profit made by the people making the porn doujins 'n stuff?

EDIT: Sir TSO, while I do understand your anger, please have in mind that although the created and mentioned by you games are genius, their foundation lies in characters made by ZUN.

Imagine you create something and it's cool. Then someone else makes it more awesome. How do you feel?
There exists a possibility of you getting under appreciated for that. Let's say, people will go with "yea, he made it but the guy named XX is the TRUE master and awesome guy!"
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:42:32 pm by Smoku »


Mokou Fan

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2011, 11:43:03 pm »
The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff (H Doujins/dakimakuras/etc).  Funny thing is it's pointless, the porn industry guys will just recolor a few things and make it Mar*s* fucking R**mu.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2011, 11:45:24 pm »
Yes clearly every single derivative work is simply just ripping off someone else.  ::) 

If you're using someone else's creations in your own work, without compensating them, yeah, that pretty much is ripping them off, to a degree. He's not asking for compensation; he's asking that permission be asked, and that certain distribution channels not be used. He's not going to personally come to your home and throw a steaming hot latté in your face or something. That's why I don't get the howls of outrage here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2011, 11:45:54 pm »
Once again, Jack Daniels is a damn powerful thing.

The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff (H Doujins/dakimakuras/etc).  Funny thing is it's pointless, the porn industry guys will just recolor a few things and make it Mar*s* fucking R**mu.

There's a difference between hentai doujin's and badly made hentai doujins. When its just someone recoloring something from something el- hell, is that even possible? You wouldn't make a profit either way, as theres a lotta sites which have pretty much every Touhou h-doujin for free.

But all that fanmade shit aside the point: Whatever ZUN wants to do with his series he can. Weither you guys think its dumb (jack daniels), It's still his choice. Who knows, maybe he'll retract this statement?

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2011, 11:49:37 pm »
I wonder if the porn thing is kinda related to the Tokio ban of porn-or-something-like-that new law to have the eyes of authorities away from him just for shear peace and quiet...


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2011, 11:53:27 pm »
I have a less conventional question related to the whole indie/doujin download-content spat:

Does ZUN want Touhou to be an economic success?

I can't properly articulate it, but there's been some stuff said elsewhere that makes me think the answer would be something along the lines of "not particularly." Something about making the games based on what he wants to do, rather than what's expected of him. There's a chance that the ways that this request screws over the economic aspect of getting Touhou around are intentional, in order to cool things off a little so he can be more relaxed about what to do with the series and reduce some externally-caused economic influences.

But it's more likely that he's just drunk and worried about things getting out of control. But what way they're getting out of control that ZUN doesn't like... that's not as easy to answer.
There was something here once. Wonder what...

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2011, 11:54:37 pm »
If you're using someone else's creations in your own work, without compensating them, yeah, that pretty much is ripping them off, to a degree. He's not asking for compensation; he's asking that permission be asked, and that certain distribution channels not be used. He's not going to personally come to your home and throw a steaming hot latté in your face or something. That's why I don't get the howls of outrage here.
The outrage is because with those definitions, it limits the platform to purely PC games.  For those of us who, I dunno, want to respect ZUN's wishes, it limits our options on what we can code for.  Not only that, it limits the exposure we can give our games.  Not all of us can afford a booth at Comiket or Reitaisai, or pay the ransom to get Paletweb/Himeyashop to carry it.

And really, what bothers me more is not the restrictions but how arbitrary and nonsensical they are.  The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.  Oh you can make a game, but you can only sell it if you can get over to Comiket/Reitaisai to do so, or manage to convince a doujin site to sell it for you.  Which is never going to happen to us Westerners ever.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."

Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2011, 11:59:02 pm »
Maybe ZUN just has the wrong idea about online distributions? Like maybe he thinks people can do it without the creators knowing and thus earning 100% profit without paying any royalties or anything, or that people will try it and cause huge shitstorms.

Eh maybe...

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2011, 12:05:49 am »
Maybe ZUN just has the wrong idea about online distributions? Like maybe he thinks people can do it without the creators knowing and thus earning 100% profit without paying any royalties or anything, or that people will try it and cause huge shitstorms.

Eh maybe...
Oh I'm sure part of it is just ignorance and lack of knowledge of the way things work.  I'm hoping though that he'd be open to exploring it and letting it on a case by case basis, or at least be willing to look into and educating himself.

Really though, it just upsets me.  I really do want to respect his wishes, creative control over one's own creation is a paramount right in a modern society.  But at the same time, it severely restricts my options and ability to expose my work and the platforms I can develop for.  Add to the fact it completely shuts out the Western community entirely unless by some miracle we were able to get a booth at one of the cons or a ZUN approved store to sell it.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2011, 12:07:18 am »
Jack Daniels


jack is whiskey


zun drinks beer

http://ryuukyunplaysstuff.tumblr.com/ read about me playing league i guess

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2011, 12:09:32 am »
Or does beer drink ZUN?


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."

Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2011, 12:10:28 am »
Soviet loli for TH13

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2011, 12:14:28 am »
And really, what bothers me more is not the restrictions but how arbitrary and nonsensical they are.  The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.

So now he's a racist, too? Well, that's keeping the discussion sensible.

I dunno. Seems like a lot of sound and fury to me in the reaction to this.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2011, 12:23:53 am »
So now he's a racist, too? Well, that's keeping the discussion sensible.

I dunno. Seems like a lot of sound and fury to me in the reaction to this.
Did I say racist?  No it just sounds like a typical "oldschool" Japanese mentality.  Why else would he specifically single out "sales through overseas downloads", unless it was just a mistake by the translation (I'm going off of ANN's statement).

Seriously though, I want to respect his wishes but this is just stupid.  Maybe you don't see it as a big deal because you don't have a dog in the hunt.  I have no options but to ignore them (I'm toying with an XNA Touhou-based game and a DMF port for the PSP).


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2011, 12:28:54 am »
Did I say racist?  No it just sounds like a typical "oldschool" Japanese mentality.  Why else would he specifically single out "sales through overseas downloads", unless it was just a mistake by the translation (I'm going off of ANN's statement).

Well, you did say "xenophobic", which in fairness doesn't just include race but also nationality and religion. So it's worse.

And maybe his concerns are with regards to the entire complicated mess of dealing with international copyright law. He's just one dude. He's probably just trying to keep things simple by limiting the means and scope of distribution to the realms that he understands without having to hire an attorney.

To recap, what he's asking for is:

1. If you want to use Touhous, ask permission.
2. If you want to use sexy Touhous, ask permission and be "discreet" about it.
3. Sell your stuff in material form.
4. Don't make Touhous racist or raping each other and shit.

I understand Number 3 being frustrating, sure, but some of the adjectives being thrown around about this make him sound like some kind of monster stealing first-born children from doujin artists.

Touhou is his work. He can set any terms he pleases. And these terms, while maybe frustrating for the western consumer, are not impossible nor are they unreasonable. Just my humble opinion.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2011, 12:33:42 am »
You can't deny that the Japanese don't like sharing their awesome stuff with the westerns, god knows why.
That might wake an accusation of xenophobia.
If we really have anything to do here with THIS, then this ain't as "harsh" as racism here (or as the "xenophobia" you have in mind). Perhaps a mild version of xenophobia.

In this particular I'm trying to justify TSO's anger (about so called xenophobia). Just saying and wondering, no stating objective truth.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2011, 12:45:53 am »
They are impossible because I can't press a 360 disc, XBLIG is my only option.  The only reason I was using XNA was the direct and simple port to 360 and PC and leverage XBLIG to distribute.  Of course I have my own capabilities to host the PC version but not many other indy devs have that.

And I'm not coming from the angle of a consumer, I know he's never going to distribute digitally, and while I think he's being shortsighted it's his work and I can't force him to sell on Steam.  But to tell me I can't make a game for the 360 without being able to press a disc (an impossible task) is kind of much, especially if he's fine if I sell my game at Reitaisai for a bajillion dollars.

As for the rest of the commentary, maybe I'm overreacting (I really hope I am), but I'm kinda used to getting treated like a second class citizen.  I hope it was unintentional but still, the propensity to do such things is still pretty high especially in the doujin world.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2011, 01:25:54 am »
I fully agree with ZUN on that post.

I'm more than sure that the increase of doujin works really doesn't improve the amount of money that goes in to ZUN, the founder and total/ 100% owner of touhou. Heck, if he were to totally ban all doujin content forever, it still wouldn't/ shouldn't affect him. He has the complete right to be disappointed/angry at other people for  A ) making a profit out of his content and by  B ) limiting the money that should go to him with his own creation.

Now, I don't think touhou's popularity will ever decrease/suffer/die/whatever if ZUN restricts the creation of doujin content even by the slightest. Touhou will still, more than likely, be popular nonetheless.

Oh, and about touhou's growth.
He probably doesn't want touhou to get out-of-hand in the XBLA by some fan who just happened to publish a best-selling touhou doujin game. If ZUN wants to, he can either wait until the right time to go mainstream or he can simply deny the opportunity forever.  It's his choice. This also applies to the creation of a touhou anime.

He has, as I've kept saying, the total right to manage his own creation in whichever way he wants. I just hope that we can all respect this.

Oh, and I don't think that the piracy of official or fanmade content would matter either way. No matter what, there's ALWAYS going to be someone that will upload such content to the internet for anyone to download for free.
Sorta like music. No matter what anyone tries to do, there will still be millions of copies of almost every song everywere. In both real life and on the internet.

TSO, if these new rules are really a problem, maybe you can contact ZUN himself for permission? If he still denies it, maybe you can make your own original doujin content for a profit? Well, whatever happens, I hope everything turns out alright....

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2011, 01:29:26 am »
The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.  Oh you can make a game, but you can only sell it if you can get over to Comiket/Reitaisai to do so, or manage to convince a doujin site to sell it for you.  Which is never going to happen to us Westerners ever.

My first thought was that he might be trying not to step on the toes of some company such as Rockin' Android, which has hinted about attempting to publish Touhou games in the West, IIRC. Or he might have bought into the huge moral panic surrounding eroge and resulting in most 18+ game developers banning overseas visitors from even visiting their websites (which would be stupid.) Or he might be afraid that by having Touhou fangames appear on major platforms such as the Apple Store and XBLA he'll somehow lose control of his rights. I dunno, it is hard to judge the motivation here.

Still, my personal opinion is "it's his setting, and what's the loss?" If someone wants to profiteer off their creations without being beholden to ZUN's new restrictions, they can easily just make something that's not based on Touhou.  Heck, Rosenkreuzstilette was so similar to MegaMari in concept and style it kind of feels like those guys had to do just that when Tasofro beat them to a Touhou MegaMan- or just decided to change the story and setting when they cloned it rather than make a fangame of a fangame. (I forget the precise dates except that MegaMari came first.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whatever ZUN wants to do with his own setting can't harm the doujin scene at large, and if the profiteers have to go it on their own from now on it might even lead to greater originality. I probably shouldn't expect much agreement on a Touhou fan-forum, though. :V It's a selfish opinion born of finding it very dreary how Touhou has utterly dominated the doujin world for some time now, particularly in regards music. C'mon, give me some Atelier or Tales or Persona arrangements! Or your own compositions!

Okay, stupid rant over.
 

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